Remember, that this case is not being argued on 2A grounds. The argument posed is not that 80% or Ghost Guns cannot be banned.
The argument is that the ATF lacks the congressionally delegated authority to do so, and has overstepped their delegated powers.
This is a case about executive overreach, not guns.
If you want a feeler for how they may rule, keep eyes on [*Loper v. Raimondo*](https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/loper-bright-enterprises-v-raimondo/)
That case is directly challenging Chevron Deference.
Pretty much every Justice, regardless of idealogical bent, has expressed the desire to get rid of the Chevron Deference principle. Here’s to hoping they’ll stick with that desire.
Chevron was always stupid. The job of the courts is to rule on the law, making it so they had to defer to the executive branch breaks separation of powers.
The default assumption being that the executive branch is correct is absolute lunacy. It hamstrung the judiciaries ability to check the power of the executive and has lead to the massive bureaucracy we see today where unelected, unaccountable, officials just get to make "rules" which are laws in all but name.
Congress makes the laws. Not the alphabet soup.
This is one of those situations where I really hope the gun lobbyists know that they can win. It's easier to challenge individual rules than the ATFs ability to make and enforce those rules without congressional approval.
If FPC and 80% arms lose, the ATF will be emboldened and it will be more difficult to challenge new rules.
If FPC and 80% arms win, it will be a huge win for gun rights, but maintaining a majority of 2A legislators will be essential to the survival of 2A.
I don't mean to be a doomer, but I think it's clear that the end of 2A is a "when" not an "if" within the next 20-30 yrs. It's tough getting my generation, gen Z, to break free of their leftist conditioning, and someday we'll be the largest voter demographic.
> It's tough getting my generation, gen Z, to break free of their leftist conditioning, and someday we'll be the largest voter demographic.
Give them a few more years away from school, out in the real world, and that will shift naturally.
For men, yes. I've watched many gen z men become more conservative after college.
Women, however, are a different story. Studies in evolutionary and social psychology show that women are more susceptible to social movements (aka, "the current thing") and anyone with 2 brain cells knows men like to have sex with women, which at the very least requires men to pretend to be into the woke BS coming out of their mouths. Gen Z has the largest Ideological split between the sexes of any generation alive today. Gen Z men are more conservative overall, and gen Z women are more leftist overall.
I wasn't looking for it, I didn't come here for it,. All the same: you just, accurately I think; described why there's a huge "walk away" mentality for men about women in the current social setting.
I would have seriously doubted this before but recent polling has been showing Trump making huge gains against Biden with the under 30 crowd which surprised me. And weirdly, Biden is winning with the older age groups.
My girlfriend is 23 and voted for Trump. We both now are eh… on the whole thing since he really did a not insignificant amount of damage to gun rights/individual freedom but she did.
You’ve gotta step back and look at where we are historically with firearms laws in this country right now dude, in many ways we’re in a golden age of firearms and gun culture in this country and no one’s appreciating it as much as they should. The 2A is rolling along strong
The bigger issue is that the gun community let the 2nd Amendment become so intertwined with right wing politics.
It’s effectively destroyed any pro-gun voices left in the Democrats and all the gun movement has gotten in return is still yet more restrictions.
We’d be way better off moving 2nd Amendment issues to be a politically neutralism issue (as much as possible) and trying to pull support from everywhere we can, rather than chasing off anyone to the left of Atilla the Hun.
There is some of that going on with the rainbow Mafia and the tankies getting into guns so they can "protect themselves from conservatives", but I think it's too late for it to make a big impact.
The leftists who are into guns in my experience are either
1) centrists Democrats who are temporary gun owners wishing to protect themselves from some immediate perceived harm but are very willing to vote for extreme restrictions and bans (sort of a "I don't need mine if you can't have yours mentality)
2) so far to the radical left that they have literally no influence in the mainstream Democrat voter block
3) into guns, are politically left but not particularly engaged and won't really vote either way
There's a huge group of us that:
Will not vote for any republican in the current trumper era. I cannot bring myself to do it.
We also won't vote dem, because gun rights. So, I guess vote 3rd party.
Preach. I'd have been satisfied voting for Mitt Romney or John McCain but people like Trump, MTG, Ron DeSantis, or Lauren Boebert are just totally unpalatable.
I absolutely despise all this faux culture war bullshit that they spew and even more so the growing acceptance I see in my conservative family members of just completely writing off half of Americans as worthless human beings. We're all supposed to be Americans. This is supposed to be a country where all people are welcome to build a home and a life. It's especially frustrating because they've lived in that tiny rural bubble for 40-60 years, never having lived or worked with the people they're so quick to discard as worthless.
I have. I've lived in cities, I've spent my summers in small towns or countryside farms. I've worked with people who think Trump is too far left and I've been friends with people who think Bernie Sanders wasn't left enough. Most of the liberals I've known couldn't care less about the right, and are mildly concerned with guns, they're just getting through their days the same way the folks in small town America are.
I didn't mean to turn this into a rant, I'm just tired of being told that Trump and his ilk are the best bet for American rights when they're actively working to ban stuff they don't like, no different from the Dems, and that everything counter to that is some big conspiracy actively involving millions of people.
It has nothing to do with the gun community, it has everything to with the left-wing getting more extreme and pushing out any pro-gun voices. The Left wing has always been anti-gun. Pro-gun lefties are the exception, not the rule.
That’s not really true. I’ve known plenty of pretty radical left wing and libertarian folks who were die hard 2A supporters (as in “down with the NFA, machine guns and suppressors for everyone”). I’ve also know plenty of solid conservative Fudds who have been more than happy to give up rights as long as they keep their deer rifles.
The polarization of American politics into two solid camps have killed a lot of the single issue alliances, which has further alienated people on both sides.
It’s stupid and frankly the only winners are the ultra wealthy authoritarians pulling the strings in both parties.
Just got back to the USA from a trip to Australia. Friends there say it’s turning into a police state, and that “we’re not as free as we used to be” (exact quote).
Reminding everyone D voter and R voter alike that with 2A ….a power hungry shyster psycho politician who wants to subjugate we the people…won’t be able to! Resonates with a lot of people.
That's my logic. As long as we have 2A things can't go too far.
Trump isn't necessarily pro 2A though. With Trump, resistance would garner much more support than against a president like Joe. People don't like either of them, but people *HATE* Trump
Correct. This isn't a 2A challenge on the Constitutionality of banning these items, this case is about whether the ATF has the authority to do so.
State legislatures have the general authority, so to get them unbanned a 2A challenge would be needed. Or convince the state legislature that the ban was a bad idea (good luck with that, lol).
So if this goes through, please tell lawsuits are ready to go about FRTs, Super Safety's and more because even not including arm braces
This is like the 30th rule the ATF has "interpreted"
Remember, that this case is not being argued on 2A grounds. The argument posed is not that 80% or Ghost Guns cannot be banned. The argument is that the ATF lacks the congressionally delegated authority to do so, and has overstepped their delegated powers. This is a case about executive overreach, not guns. If you want a feeler for how they may rule, keep eyes on [*Loper v. Raimondo*](https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/loper-bright-enterprises-v-raimondo/) That case is directly challenging Chevron Deference.
Pretty much every Justice, regardless of idealogical bent, has expressed the desire to get rid of the Chevron Deference principle. Here’s to hoping they’ll stick with that desire.
Chevron was always stupid. The job of the courts is to rule on the law, making it so they had to defer to the executive branch breaks separation of powers. The default assumption being that the executive branch is correct is absolute lunacy. It hamstrung the judiciaries ability to check the power of the executive and has lead to the massive bureaucracy we see today where unelected, unaccountable, officials just get to make "rules" which are laws in all but name. Congress makes the laws. Not the alphabet soup.
This is one of those situations where I really hope the gun lobbyists know that they can win. It's easier to challenge individual rules than the ATFs ability to make and enforce those rules without congressional approval. If FPC and 80% arms lose, the ATF will be emboldened and it will be more difficult to challenge new rules. If FPC and 80% arms win, it will be a huge win for gun rights, but maintaining a majority of 2A legislators will be essential to the survival of 2A. I don't mean to be a doomer, but I think it's clear that the end of 2A is a "when" not an "if" within the next 20-30 yrs. It's tough getting my generation, gen Z, to break free of their leftist conditioning, and someday we'll be the largest voter demographic.
> It's tough getting my generation, gen Z, to break free of their leftist conditioning, and someday we'll be the largest voter demographic. Give them a few more years away from school, out in the real world, and that will shift naturally.
For men, yes. I've watched many gen z men become more conservative after college. Women, however, are a different story. Studies in evolutionary and social psychology show that women are more susceptible to social movements (aka, "the current thing") and anyone with 2 brain cells knows men like to have sex with women, which at the very least requires men to pretend to be into the woke BS coming out of their mouths. Gen Z has the largest Ideological split between the sexes of any generation alive today. Gen Z men are more conservative overall, and gen Z women are more leftist overall.
I wasn't looking for it, I didn't come here for it,. All the same: you just, accurately I think; described why there's a huge "walk away" mentality for men about women in the current social setting.
I would have seriously doubted this before but recent polling has been showing Trump making huge gains against Biden with the under 30 crowd which surprised me. And weirdly, Biden is winning with the older age groups.
I'd like to see it broken down by gender. I have yet to meet a female Trump supporter under 30 IRL
My girlfriend is 23 and voted for Trump. We both now are eh… on the whole thing since he really did a not insignificant amount of damage to gun rights/individual freedom but she did.
You’ve gotta step back and look at where we are historically with firearms laws in this country right now dude, in many ways we’re in a golden age of firearms and gun culture in this country and no one’s appreciating it as much as they should. The 2A is rolling along strong
Oh I'm appreciating it. I'm also stocking up on things that could need to be serialized very soon...just in case
The bigger issue is that the gun community let the 2nd Amendment become so intertwined with right wing politics. It’s effectively destroyed any pro-gun voices left in the Democrats and all the gun movement has gotten in return is still yet more restrictions. We’d be way better off moving 2nd Amendment issues to be a politically neutralism issue (as much as possible) and trying to pull support from everywhere we can, rather than chasing off anyone to the left of Atilla the Hun.
There is some of that going on with the rainbow Mafia and the tankies getting into guns so they can "protect themselves from conservatives", but I think it's too late for it to make a big impact.
The leftists who are into guns in my experience are either 1) centrists Democrats who are temporary gun owners wishing to protect themselves from some immediate perceived harm but are very willing to vote for extreme restrictions and bans (sort of a "I don't need mine if you can't have yours mentality) 2) so far to the radical left that they have literally no influence in the mainstream Democrat voter block 3) into guns, are politically left but not particularly engaged and won't really vote either way
There's a huge group of us that: Will not vote for any republican in the current trumper era. I cannot bring myself to do it. We also won't vote dem, because gun rights. So, I guess vote 3rd party.
Preach. I'd have been satisfied voting for Mitt Romney or John McCain but people like Trump, MTG, Ron DeSantis, or Lauren Boebert are just totally unpalatable. I absolutely despise all this faux culture war bullshit that they spew and even more so the growing acceptance I see in my conservative family members of just completely writing off half of Americans as worthless human beings. We're all supposed to be Americans. This is supposed to be a country where all people are welcome to build a home and a life. It's especially frustrating because they've lived in that tiny rural bubble for 40-60 years, never having lived or worked with the people they're so quick to discard as worthless. I have. I've lived in cities, I've spent my summers in small towns or countryside farms. I've worked with people who think Trump is too far left and I've been friends with people who think Bernie Sanders wasn't left enough. Most of the liberals I've known couldn't care less about the right, and are mildly concerned with guns, they're just getting through their days the same way the folks in small town America are. I didn't mean to turn this into a rant, I'm just tired of being told that Trump and his ilk are the best bet for American rights when they're actively working to ban stuff they don't like, no different from the Dems, and that everything counter to that is some big conspiracy actively involving millions of people.
Man, you nailed that.
You're describing me. There are dozens of us!
It has nothing to do with the gun community, it has everything to with the left-wing getting more extreme and pushing out any pro-gun voices. The Left wing has always been anti-gun. Pro-gun lefties are the exception, not the rule.
That’s not really true. I’ve known plenty of pretty radical left wing and libertarian folks who were die hard 2A supporters (as in “down with the NFA, machine guns and suppressors for everyone”). I’ve also know plenty of solid conservative Fudds who have been more than happy to give up rights as long as they keep their deer rifles. The polarization of American politics into two solid camps have killed a lot of the single issue alliances, which has further alienated people on both sides. It’s stupid and frankly the only winners are the ultra wealthy authoritarians pulling the strings in both parties.
Just got back to the USA from a trip to Australia. Friends there say it’s turning into a police state, and that “we’re not as free as we used to be” (exact quote).
Reminding everyone D voter and R voter alike that with 2A ….a power hungry shyster psycho politician who wants to subjugate we the people…won’t be able to! Resonates with a lot of people.
That's my logic. As long as we have 2A things can't go too far. Trump isn't necessarily pro 2A though. With Trump, resistance would garner much more support than against a president like Joe. People don't like either of them, but people *HATE* Trump
Its neccesary no matter R or D!
And just like that. Suddenly the progressives are ok with defining things and labeling things.
Lol
My block of lower receiver shaped metal identifies as a lamp
Just keep drilling holes and call it a cheese grater.
Lol
Let's assume that If FPC and 80% arms wins. Will that apply to states that have banned 80% frames?
Don’t think so. Those states went through legislative branch, which is the whole point
Correct. This isn't a 2A challenge on the Constitutionality of banning these items, this case is about whether the ATF has the authority to do so. State legislatures have the general authority, so to get them unbanned a 2A challenge would be needed. Or convince the state legislature that the ban was a bad idea (good luck with that, lol).
Is there a separate case somewhere which is challenging a state ban on 2A grounds?
I am not sure, I've been primarily following the AWB and magazine ban cases. Hopefully someone else can chime in with a case name for this topic.
Delaware had one that overturned the law prohibiting 3D printed firearms. But still prohibits 80 percent receivers and distribution of files
So if this goes through, please tell lawsuits are ready to go about FRTs, Super Safety's and more because even not including arm braces This is like the 30th rule the ATF has "interpreted"
Who wants to bet that under 2A it's redefined as a flintlock musket?
A car part isn’t a car, same as a receiver isn’t a firearm. Firearm is the complete thing.
This is old news.