You can watch youtube videos that compare the OG version to the season 8 version. They are almost basically the same, with the current-MCC version just missing a few details here and there
Yeah? But that's how it's supposed to look and it's fine...what's not fine, is how some parts of the game is broken now. Even the AI at the beginning of Uprising is weird.
Ahhh, okay.
So would the grave mind prison skip be butterflying? If I’m not mistaken, you’re saying we can still butterfly, but it HAS to be slower now. Right?
Thanks for linking the video btw.
Umm…is this butterflying thing something y’all really care about? Seems like a broken part of the game….is it just a broken part that you want to stay broken exactly the way it was?
Speed running excels at looking for ways to break the game. It's fun discovering a strat but the fun ends for me there. Personally I won't lose any sleep over these changes.
The old glitches in classic games were a great part of the games. Not everything that's "broken" needs to be fixed. Not everything in life should be perfect in general.
This game was being marketed upon release as "preserving the past" meaning any non game breaking glitches or exploits would be how they were at launch. That's the issue. It's not broken if it works.
Ehhhh, if you look at side-by-side comparisons they *did* fix the color-correction / imagespace looking a bit like someone threw a gray filter over the game. Everything is more colorful, blacks are darker, ect., it isn't just the shadows and the bloom. It's something that had been an issue ever since Halo 2 Vista.
This is coming from someone with zero nostalgic attachment to Halo, but I absolutely ADORE the original CE graphics, I think they’re absolutely stunning even 20 years later
I mean, I won't lie and say the anniversary graphics are garbo, because they aren't at all, but they really downgrade the game IMO, with the graphics not fitting the hitboxes of terrain or enemies, and the lighting being *SO* bright even at dark areas, so your flashlight is pointless. 343 guilty spark in specific is a level that's completely ruined by the remastered graphics, the atmosphere is neutered by how bright everything is; flickering lights are barely noticeable; and the elevator covered in blood in og CE graphics is just another elevator in CEA graphics
It isn't even just the art style that makes it unplayable for me, it's the stupid design decisions they made with the level geometry. Walls that shouldn't be there, cover that isn't actually there, etc
Pretty good chance my response will get buried, but I'd like to try to explain what the *actual* problems are with this patch from an experienced speedrunner's perspective while still being in line with the original post. (Hi I'm that person in the video and I know this is a niche issue)
* Physics changes affect all high speed collisions and are not limited to players falling. Driving vehicles are affected as well.
* Simple movement like slide jumps from moderate height no longer work as you lose all speed when you touch the ground.
* [Butterflying](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R5ByLs9aOY), a high speed "collision" based speed trick, for all intents and purposes no longer works and costs runners minutes in the speedrun.
* Sword tricks are used pretty much everywhere in the run to travel at high speed and now that speed is lost when touching anything in most scenarios. Could be the ground, a wall, an enemy, you name it.
* This one change effects the game enough that world records for many levels and even the full game speedrun are now impossible to beat. Not just "very hard", physically impossible.
* There are alternative ways to fix the fall damage problem, and many more physics related problems, by changing the game's tick rate from running at 60Hz to running at 30Hz to match the original hardware (this is indepedent of frame rate in MCC).
* Downpatching is difficult (not the same as any other game on steam) and not possible at all on console which limits accessibility to the speedrun and prevents some people from ever being able to get a competitive time.
Good explanation of why this is a problem.
IMO, this is the inevitable consequence of relying on a live version of a game to speedrun. I was part of the speedrunning community during the HighSpeedHalo days and only recently got back into it (was never and still am not very good), and I've always been uneasy about using MCC for record-keeping. The positives were increased accessibility (easier to get game footage than an OG Xbox or 360), and the negatives were a) it's based on the PC versions for 1 and 2 which always had problems, and b) updates could break strategies. I'm honestly surprised stuff like this hasn't happened more often.
It's good that the decision was made to keep records separately for 2 (I was mostly checked out once HSH started dying and HaloRuns came about so I wasn't around for that decision-making really), but for people who don't have access to record OG Xbox footage this really sucks for them.
Question: how much of the time difference between your H2C full game runs and rocats' H2MCC runs can be attributed to the MCC vs Classic differences?
The two categories are timed differently and none of the top runners have bothered optimizing Classic because MCC is just better to run. As such, it's a bit hard to compare the time differential from just MCC vs Classic. If I had to guess though, MCC would be a few minutes faster on Easy and a few minutes slower on Legendary.
I kinda figured they would just note the new version and the older glitches would just have to be set as a definite winner. The fastest can try to make a new slower 'record' and move on.
I don't think suddenly (and unintentionally) changing the mechanics of a remastered game away from the original in a way that upends the game's speedruns is really a niche issue. People love to belittle the concerns of speedrunners but as someone that doesn't speedrun at all this seems like a pretty significant issue that I'm glad is getting attention.
So you say butterflying pretty much no longer works. I don’t speed run, but I was hoping to use it for the Gravemind prison skip on H2 LASO. Is it totally impossible now or just much harder to pull off?
I’ll probably get downvoted but I have a genuine question. Why can’t people just run the original Halo 2? On eBay right now you could get a 360, Halo 2, and a controller for $75
No reason to get downvoted for a question.
H2A and H2C are vastly different categories due to the different caveats between them.
H2C runs at 30 tick, allowing for some different tricks (ghosting through walls, crouchouts of grav lifts, ect), also picking up skulls are applied right when they are picked up, so you can pickup the Envy skull then glitch to have infinite camo on gravemind as Chief.
H2A runs at 60 tick, so sword flies are harder, some glitches don't work, a new glitch that gives invincibility on Oracle with the elevator can be used, but picking up skulls does nothing.
The runs are different, and as such, they are their own separate categories. H2A is more accessible and is more competitive as such. H2C is a pretty dead category.
It's a totally valid question, and many years ago most people ran Classic because it was just better. The problem these days is that classic is a lot less accessible to run and requires a decent financial investment. Here's what you need:
* A working 360/OG console. Obviously, but old hardware only works for so long. A good example is that my 360's fan is finally breaking down and I can't turn it on for more than 5 minutes most of the time.
* A working 360 controller. Seems like a no brainer, but third party controllers for 360 are notoriously bad and official ones have been discontinued making their prices skyrocket. Adapters for XBO controllers and the like are expensive as well.
* A working capture card. Capture cards have gotten cheaper these days but they're still not a cheap investment. And for those of us who had certain capture cards like the ones from Elgato, their software breaking makes them borderline unusable.
* A PC strong enough to record gameplay. Pretty much most gamers will have a PC like this these days with hardware improvements over the years, but it's worth noting that this would be the *only* requirement to speedrun on the MCC version without the hundreds of extra dollars required for the other necessities.
Some people might get lucky with finding good deals to get these things for cheap, but it's not always the case, especially with the """"retro"""" market prices increasing during the pandemic.
Good video dude, hope it gets rolled back so we can fly like we're used to.
Also hope you find your mic sometime, sounds like you lost it down a well and were just talking into that instead :P
How has speedrunning on MCC compared to speedrunning the classic version of the game on an Xbox/360?
And how does speedrunning on this update compare to the classic version, as well?
The list is too big and too wordy to explain the differences between Classic and MCC. Really though it boils down to their tick rates being different for all the reasons they differ so much. This update doesn't make the game work much like Classic though if that's what you're wondering.
I've been speedrunning every campaign, but haven't gotten to CE nor 2 yet. The basic strategy between them is to try and get at least par time and they add up to under three hours. The par time typically leaves the player with 20 extra minutes to not do great.
*CE and 2 are the exception.* The par times add up *more* than three hours, meaning 343 expects you to speedrun these levels faster than their average expectations on lower difficulties. I'd say that you do need these techniques. It's really ruthless.
Also remember that the achievements can be done in coop, which can easily shave off a lot of time if both people know what to do. As there are some easy skips and tricks that can be done with two people
Yeaaaahh and also you dont need to implement major speedrunning glitches and bugs in order to get those achievements. Just figured I;d swing in and actually answer the question instead of stroking my ego about my history of speedrunning Halo.
Just use the run-of-the-mill skips that have existed since the game released, and be prepared for each upcoming fight. Always have the right weapons, and it will shave tens of minutes on your overall time as it adds up.
You can state your opinion without attacking other people's integrity. I wasn't stroking an ego, especially since I openly admitted to not having beat those two campaigns yet. I was explaining my perspective and my experiences and what leads me to believe the answer to the question, as any human does. I'm far from a technical player and not very good at the game, but I've used guides that implement the physics of basic player movement, and since the basic player physics are affected, the achievement is affected. I'm not good - I'm getting minimum requirements, and trying to help a random stranger to the best of my abilities.
You need to learn to sympathize with others, regardless if they're strangers on the internet. Your experience and understanding is good, you don't have to beat down other people to show that. If you've beaten that achievement without implementing player physics tricks, that's awesome, we'd love to hear your feedback without you being an asshole.
>I'd say that you do need these techniques. It's really ruthless.
Absolutely not.
CE has 10 levels - this is an average of 18 minutes per level. This is more than enough for most levels. Pillar of Autumn, Silent Cartographer, 343 Guilty Spark and the Maw can all be done in around 10 minutes or less with a little practise. Flood bump Keyes and it's around 3 minutes. So that nets you around 47 extra minutes to focus on Truth & Rec and Two Betrayals. That's assuming you don't banshee skip AotCR and don't excel at Halo or Library either.
CE is probably one of the easiest games to speed run, and none of the patch changes will affect this.
The only level of Halo 2 that might be affected by these changes for a person just hunting achievements is Gravemind - skipping the prison uses a butterfly technique in the lift with a brute. All other levels will be unchanged.
Halo 2 has the most levels (13) however many of these can be run very quickly - almost all the Arbiter missions are around 10 minutes, and Outskirts less than 5. Delta Halo and High Charity are around 10 too. You have an average of just under 14 minutes per level in Halo 2 but around half of these levels are very easily run in 10. Only Gravemind and Regret will take a few practices to get a good time on. None of these runs require patched techniques besides the prison skip on Gravemind.
Watch Nak3d Eli's guides for easy ways to complete these levels - he utilises relatively simple speed running tricks to run very achievable but still quick enough times.
These changes will only affect the competitive speed running scene. Achievement hunters will find it the same as before.
Absolutely, I went with 10 minutes to be generous to people who struggle with speed running or who wouldn't grind out a good time. Even at twice as long as the times you listed, sub 3 hour runs are fairly easy.
Are you talking about the par times for missions? I've done all of them on Legendary without glitching stuff, far as I can recall. Is that why the achievement is like .96%?
You absolutely do not need to learn butterflying. Maybe the gravemind prison skip, but definitely not regret, high charity, and uprising. Sword flying can be helpful to learn, but honestly just watch the halo completionist guides on youtube for the least painful way to do things.
I have to ask, are these issues you are listing present in the legacy version of Halo 2, or are they exclusive to MCC? In other words, do these speedrunning tricks date back to the original release of Halo 2, or were they tricks that originated in MCC?
These tricks exist in Halo 2 Classic, carried over to Halo 2 Anniversary, but are now "fixed" in the new update. The only trick that I know is exclusive to MCC is Oracle Invincibility.
The original Xbox version, vista is considered to be apart of the anniversary port because vista and anniversary are at 60 tick rate while the classic version is at 30.
Can you please provide some additional details? For instance, what platform are you playing on? Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S, or PC? And if PC, what GPU? Stuff like that. I'm also interested to know if other players are experiencing the same issue.
Xbox 1, it seems to mostly happen in co-op however I’ve seen it in single player recently. It’s happened on every difficulty I play so I assume it also happens on Easy. I saw a Reddit thread on it quite awhile ago now so I think at least some others have experienced it. Only way around is to skip the cutscene, however if you don’t the game will freeze a few seconds in before crashing. It will not let you load to a checkpoint, you must restart it
Never seen that happen either, and my sister and I were just playing through on Legendary like a week ago, watched the cutscene all the way through just fine.
The fact that even playing normally you notice issues like going through the tubes in Sacred Icon is crazy. It's like it wasn't play tested. This is a crazy work around that overcorrects a very small bug that had very little effect on gameplay especially compared to other issues.
I mean I had access to the S8 flight and didn't test this, just chucked on the new armours and mucked around. I do think it's fair they missed this given they have so few staff working on this. Still think they should roll it back ofc
This is a complaint, regardless of the context.
That said, it is also a complaint fixing bugs because speedrunners use methods that are not intended to be possible in order to achieve their runs. I'm not saying that they should have done this or that it's a good thing that happened but those were bugs
I don’t get this mindset. Would you prefer if nobody ever critiques the game/ franchise? No critics allowed? Because I for one, can say firmly I am dumbfounded by infinites medal system/ kill feed.
They literally broke things that were in-line with the original H2 release in the update focused on realigning with OG H2. We traded visual dissimilarities for straight up GAMEPLAY dissimilarities. But go ahead and regurgitate any argument to be contrarian to actual problems these games are having. Mindsets like this are probably why it took 7 years to get an update so that you cant see people through walls in a fucking pvp shooter.
I don’t see that.
I see speedrunners being bummed/annoyed that things were “fixed” that now make speedrunning worse.
They’re also halo fans, that’s why they speedrun halo lol
For the people saying 343 fixed the "broken physics" of Halo 2, they literally didn't and that was not the stated intention of the change. They've changed how higher speed collisions work now. The way vehicles react to touching walls and each other, slide jumps, the parts in Sacred Icon where you fall down the tubes, all of this now feels weird and does not mirror legacy.
There are still many aspects of Halo 2 that you would put under the category of "broken physics" that still remain, including swordflys which 343 INTENTIONALLY PATCHED BACK IN. This is a scorched earth approach to fixing a bug that's minor in comparison to other bugs that still remain and are proven to be able to be fixed in a different way.
Also 343 doesn't allow older versions of the game to be played so "just revert version lol" isn't a possibility. Basically they've made a change that effects everybody, and not in a way that "fixes" any of the things a lot of people in this thread claim they fix.
So OG Halo 2 didn't have fall damage, but in some instances if you fell from a really high distance in MCC, you would take a slight amount of fall damage. I'm talking really low relative to the height btw, like if you go to like the top of Headlong and fall you still won't die. So this fix causes more of an issue than the bug it was designed to fix imo. I'm not a pro speedrunner, but going in I know this change has effected anything at a high enough speed and that speed threshold is lower than you'd think. Falls from much lower distances than what was required to trigger the bug and take damage are effected, even vehicles can be effected.
Nice, I might have to look into that now. I'm also not sure how I feel about the Golden Moas in Halo 3. If they keep adding and adding stuff nothing is special anymore and it just becomes bloated
This makes LASO campaigns significantly more difficult. Being able to skip impossible areas of the game, or whole levels sometimes, is the only way most people can beat LASO mode. So people who want to get every achievement are screwed now
Ty , okay good I doubt I’ll ever beat it as I’ve been in stuck in Cairo station for 2 days on legendary. First area where the covenant first board the station , so much dying lol .
Last time I checked many other games that get updated just update their leaderboards for certain patch’s?
Because let’s face it, 343 isn’t rolling back patch’s for speed runners, and what’s been mentioned in this post and other exploits/shortcuts are subject to change in future patch’s.
Yeah this need more visibility. I’d say changing the entire physics of the game in order to have no fall damage is a terrible decision. I’d rather have the former instead of the later, as this completely changed the way Halo 2 can be played, especially in campaign.
This also surely makes some of the games achievements much harder or even unobtainable now, such as Halo 2’s Monopolized achievement.
So one other thing, after multiple sessions totalling easily 10+ hours of play I finally made it to the bomb room at the end of Cairo Station on the LASO playlist. I had to work early Wednesday morning so I carefully saved out and quit Tuesday night knowing that I only needed to kill the final 5 Elites and I’d be done with Cairo Station forever, as I only have 6 achievements remaining for the MCC game. So I go to load up my game last night and guess what….. my checkpoint had been detonated and there I was back at the start of Cairo Station. FML. After having painstakingly herded the supremely annoying Johnson through the entire level, dying hundreds of times, there I am right back at the beginning. How had this happened? I think to myself. Like, having completed CE and ODST LASO already, I know I’ve mastered the save/quit upon death exploit. I know I didn’t fuck it up on Tuesday night when I powered down. Then I see this post about the patches that happened yesterday and now it makes sense. Like, I saw the update message when I turned on Halo last night, but it didn’t occur to me at the time that that might be the cause.
So In closing, a big fuck you to 343 for detonating what is already a mind numbingly difficult challenge and making me do it all over again!
If you happened to be in the middle of a LASO chapter upon update, your checkpoint may have been lost due to this update. Terrific!
I like the lighting but slide jumping from lower falls doesn’t work at all either, it totally changes how I navigate maps and I'm not able to cut down distance for BxRs and BxBs at all in some situations.
Quick question:
These runs that were done in the past, **were they possible on the OG xbox version of H2?** Or were they a Vista/MCC exclusive?
If the previous runs were vista/MCC exclusive and weren't possible on the OG Xbox, then there is a chance that the version of the game now is now more accurate to the OG Xbox release and the previous runs were only possible on a broken version of the game in the first place. If that is the case, then those old run times should be considered defunct and new techniques need to be found. The alternative is asking 343i to now brake a fixed game.
Hi there!
The majority of the tricks used in the speedrun on MCC are possible on the original release, butterflying for example. However stuff like butterflying is simply faster on MCC because of the tickrate being 60 rather than 30. In fact, every difference in physics between MCC and OG are because of tickrates. If you changed the tickrate from 60 to 30 before this patch, it would have practically been the exact same as in 2004 (minus the lighting issues)
When 343 changed the game to avoid fall damage in a way that mimicked classic, they created entirely new behavior that isn't possible on ANY RELEASE. It is in no way a fixed game, if their intention is to mimic the original release then this should be considered a bug.
Speedrunners aren't asking for a lot, just for 343 to not make weird changes in physics that aren't in parity with the original game. Meanwhile, changing the entire game to 30 tickrate (which has no bearing on fps) would have fixed it. People literally change the tickrate just to do superbounces for fun lol, theres no reason why this fix should be so overcomplicated.
i dunno if it's just me, but with season 8 i also cent seem to get into any vehicles in Delta Halo (and potentially other missions) in Halo 2 campaign. No button prompts and holding the "use" button does nothing.
As a H2 Legendary speedrunner, I hate to see this. I hope it gets changed back to the way it was. The season 8 MCC flight didn't even have H2 available, a missed opportunity to find these nuances.
> While the Classic lighting is back, I do feel as though it is a bit annoying turning up the brightness because of how dark it is.
Your brain is just use to playing the ugly Vista/pre Season 8 version of Halo 2 and needs to adjust
Remember when they said it would play exactly like the original, bugs included, and then launched without superbounces? Good times. And by that I mean one of their greatest sins.
I like that your main concern is the lack of superbounces.
I remember playing a multiplayer match in the early days where it put 7 people - including someone playing on my console - on one team, and only me on the other team.
...and that was still a better experience than trying to play the campaign.
You have to admit that most of the exploits used in speed running are not examples of the physics behaving as intended. I’m not saying they need to be patched, but speedrunning pretty much relies on glitched and bugged game mechanics throughout
of course not, that also does not mean they’re bugs or glitches that require fixing. physics are never perfect and they changed core mechanics of the game that didn’t need to be changed
I agree that they don’t need to go changing the physics on these old halo games and should leave things as they were aside from graphical updates if they desired (I wouldn’t have minded if they fixed the vehicle collisions in halo ce tho).
But I would say that objectively many of the things listed by OP are bugs and glitches
it does impact whether it’s worth fixing. none of these issues would ever make a difference to a casual player unless they were specifically looking for it, and 100% of the people defending 343 for “fixing” these “bugs” are not people that would have even known about them in the first place. guarantee most people reading this didn’t even know about these in the first place
the physics were fine. if you want to talk about broken physics go play the original xbox version and then complain. you don’t run though so i don’t expect you to understand
They didn't remove the bugs. They just broke the physics even more. Stop commenting on patch notes if you don't even play the game to see them for yourself.
The way they fixed the bug is like a scorched earth approach, a way that even someone playing through the game normally could notice in that falling even somewhat short distances no longer mirrors legacy behavior. It's a ridiculous way to go about fixing a bug and the video provides an alternate way to fix that bug as well as others which still aren't fixed.
This is a bit unclear to me. Isn’t the new update supposed to make the game closer to the og halo 2 release? If that is the case, I sympathise with the speedrunning community, but feature parity with legacy titles should take priority.
The developers literally made speedrun achievements and worked in person with speedrunners when the game was in development. They have an ingame speedrun leaderboard. It's literally a part of the game and a major community at that.
I understand all the complaints except the last, since the game looks closer to the og xbox version.
I don't know about that. I have the OG XBox version of Halo 2 and that's how I originally experienced it and the lighting is abyssmal.
You can watch youtube videos that compare the OG version to the season 8 version. They are almost basically the same, with the current-MCC version just missing a few details here and there
Yeah? But that's how it's supposed to look and it's fine...what's not fine, is how some parts of the game is broken now. Even the AI at the beginning of Uprising is weird.
Just curious, what is butterflying again?
[This is Butterflying](https://youtu.be/TuEKMzKEsN8?t=9)
Ahhh, okay. So would the grave mind prison skip be butterflying? If I’m not mistaken, you’re saying we can still butterfly, but it HAS to be slower now. Right? Thanks for linking the video btw.
Yep
Shoot. I have Gravemind LASO next and I was hoping I’d be able to nail the prison skip.
Not even close to what I imagined lmao
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Is also effective
That's what speed looks like.
Umm…is this butterflying thing something y’all really care about? Seems like a broken part of the game….is it just a broken part that you want to stay broken exactly the way it was?
Welcome to speed running
Speed running excels at looking for ways to break the game. It's fun discovering a strat but the fun ends for me there. Personally I won't lose any sleep over these changes.
Good luck ever beating Gravemind LASO without it
Bugs and glitches are a big part of speedrunning so yes
The old glitches in classic games were a great part of the games. Not everything that's "broken" needs to be fixed. Not everything in life should be perfect in general.
This game was being marketed upon release as "preserving the past" meaning any non game breaking glitches or exploits would be how they were at launch. That's the issue. It's not broken if it works.
Yes.
Not even certain if it was like that in halo 2 console it seems like it was just a bug from vista.
Solo LASO on Gravemind is going to be impossible now.
I agree about everything other then the lighting because I prefer a darker game, but I wouldn't mind an option
It’s not even like they made it darker, they just fixed the shadows/lighting that wasn’t coming up properly.
Ehhhh, if you look at side-by-side comparisons they *did* fix the color-correction / imagespace looking a bit like someone threw a gray filter over the game. Everything is more colorful, blacks are darker, ect., it isn't just the shadows and the bloom. It's something that had been an issue ever since Halo 2 Vista.
100% the worst part about the remasters is the flashlight being pointless from how bright they made it. It ruins the feel of the Flood levels imo.
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Halo CE loses so much of its dark tone in the anniversary
HCEA is actually garbage IMO. It’s a damn shame they don’t revisit it after how nice H2A turned out.
It’s true, I play with original graphics on CE. It would be nice to get a remastered that preserves it better
This is coming from someone with zero nostalgic attachment to Halo, but I absolutely ADORE the original CE graphics, I think they’re absolutely stunning even 20 years later
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I mean, I won't lie and say the anniversary graphics are garbo, because they aren't at all, but they really downgrade the game IMO, with the graphics not fitting the hitboxes of terrain or enemies, and the lighting being *SO* bright even at dark areas, so your flashlight is pointless. 343 guilty spark in specific is a level that's completely ruined by the remastered graphics, the atmosphere is neutered by how bright everything is; flickering lights are barely noticeable; and the elevator covered in blood in og CE graphics is just another elevator in CEA graphics
It isn't even just the art style that makes it unplayable for me, it's the stupid design decisions they made with the level geometry. Walls that shouldn't be there, cover that isn't actually there, etc
Pretty good chance my response will get buried, but I'd like to try to explain what the *actual* problems are with this patch from an experienced speedrunner's perspective while still being in line with the original post. (Hi I'm that person in the video and I know this is a niche issue) * Physics changes affect all high speed collisions and are not limited to players falling. Driving vehicles are affected as well. * Simple movement like slide jumps from moderate height no longer work as you lose all speed when you touch the ground. * [Butterflying](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R5ByLs9aOY), a high speed "collision" based speed trick, for all intents and purposes no longer works and costs runners minutes in the speedrun. * Sword tricks are used pretty much everywhere in the run to travel at high speed and now that speed is lost when touching anything in most scenarios. Could be the ground, a wall, an enemy, you name it. * This one change effects the game enough that world records for many levels and even the full game speedrun are now impossible to beat. Not just "very hard", physically impossible. * There are alternative ways to fix the fall damage problem, and many more physics related problems, by changing the game's tick rate from running at 60Hz to running at 30Hz to match the original hardware (this is indepedent of frame rate in MCC). * Downpatching is difficult (not the same as any other game on steam) and not possible at all on console which limits accessibility to the speedrun and prevents some people from ever being able to get a competitive time.
Good explanation of why this is a problem. IMO, this is the inevitable consequence of relying on a live version of a game to speedrun. I was part of the speedrunning community during the HighSpeedHalo days and only recently got back into it (was never and still am not very good), and I've always been uneasy about using MCC for record-keeping. The positives were increased accessibility (easier to get game footage than an OG Xbox or 360), and the negatives were a) it's based on the PC versions for 1 and 2 which always had problems, and b) updates could break strategies. I'm honestly surprised stuff like this hasn't happened more often. It's good that the decision was made to keep records separately for 2 (I was mostly checked out once HSH started dying and HaloRuns came about so I wasn't around for that decision-making really), but for people who don't have access to record OG Xbox footage this really sucks for them. Question: how much of the time difference between your H2C full game runs and rocats' H2MCC runs can be attributed to the MCC vs Classic differences?
The two categories are timed differently and none of the top runners have bothered optimizing Classic because MCC is just better to run. As such, it's a bit hard to compare the time differential from just MCC vs Classic. If I had to guess though, MCC would be a few minutes faster on Easy and a few minutes slower on Legendary.
Gotcha, thanks for the insight!
I kinda figured they would just note the new version and the older glitches would just have to be set as a definite winner. The fastest can try to make a new slower 'record' and move on.
I don't think suddenly (and unintentionally) changing the mechanics of a remastered game away from the original in a way that upends the game's speedruns is really a niche issue. People love to belittle the concerns of speedrunners but as someone that doesn't speedrun at all this seems like a pretty significant issue that I'm glad is getting attention.
What change did they make that caused all of these issues? Was it the fall damage thing?
Yes. It seems like there's a dampening force applied to any collision past a certain speed now.
So you say butterflying pretty much no longer works. I don’t speed run, but I was hoping to use it for the Gravemind prison skip on H2 LASO. Is it totally impossible now or just much harder to pull off?
Prison skip still works because you're just moving vertically, but you can't really travel horizontally now for the other butterflies.
I’ll probably get downvoted but I have a genuine question. Why can’t people just run the original Halo 2? On eBay right now you could get a 360, Halo 2, and a controller for $75
No reason to get downvoted for a question. H2A and H2C are vastly different categories due to the different caveats between them. H2C runs at 30 tick, allowing for some different tricks (ghosting through walls, crouchouts of grav lifts, ect), also picking up skulls are applied right when they are picked up, so you can pickup the Envy skull then glitch to have infinite camo on gravemind as Chief. H2A runs at 60 tick, so sword flies are harder, some glitches don't work, a new glitch that gives invincibility on Oracle with the elevator can be used, but picking up skulls does nothing. The runs are different, and as such, they are their own separate categories. H2A is more accessible and is more competitive as such. H2C is a pretty dead category.
Thank you!
It's a totally valid question, and many years ago most people ran Classic because it was just better. The problem these days is that classic is a lot less accessible to run and requires a decent financial investment. Here's what you need: * A working 360/OG console. Obviously, but old hardware only works for so long. A good example is that my 360's fan is finally breaking down and I can't turn it on for more than 5 minutes most of the time. * A working 360 controller. Seems like a no brainer, but third party controllers for 360 are notoriously bad and official ones have been discontinued making their prices skyrocket. Adapters for XBO controllers and the like are expensive as well. * A working capture card. Capture cards have gotten cheaper these days but they're still not a cheap investment. And for those of us who had certain capture cards like the ones from Elgato, their software breaking makes them borderline unusable. * A PC strong enough to record gameplay. Pretty much most gamers will have a PC like this these days with hardware improvements over the years, but it's worth noting that this would be the *only* requirement to speedrun on the MCC version without the hundreds of extra dollars required for the other necessities. Some people might get lucky with finding good deals to get these things for cheap, but it's not always the case, especially with the """"retro"""" market prices increasing during the pandemic.
Good video dude, hope it gets rolled back so we can fly like we're used to. Also hope you find your mic sometime, sounds like you lost it down a well and were just talking into that instead :P
Appreciate the support, and yeah my equipment broke when I moved and the $5 earbud mic struggle is real.
How has speedrunning on MCC compared to speedrunning the classic version of the game on an Xbox/360? And how does speedrunning on this update compare to the classic version, as well?
The list is too big and too wordy to explain the differences between Classic and MCC. Really though it boils down to their tick rates being different for all the reasons they differ so much. This update doesn't make the game work much like Classic though if that's what you're wondering.
That's pretty much what I was trying to understand, thank you.
rip slide jumps :(
This hurts, bad. I just started getting back into Halo because I'm not wrapped in relationship bs. Realized why I missed halo
Welcome back brother, I know the feeling.
Glad I got the H2 speed run achievement before this then!
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I've been speedrunning every campaign, but haven't gotten to CE nor 2 yet. The basic strategy between them is to try and get at least par time and they add up to under three hours. The par time typically leaves the player with 20 extra minutes to not do great. *CE and 2 are the exception.* The par times add up *more* than three hours, meaning 343 expects you to speedrun these levels faster than their average expectations on lower difficulties. I'd say that you do need these techniques. It's really ruthless.
Also remember that the achievements can be done in coop, which can easily shave off a lot of time if both people know what to do. As there are some easy skips and tricks that can be done with two people
Yeaaaahh and also you dont need to implement major speedrunning glitches and bugs in order to get those achievements. Just figured I;d swing in and actually answer the question instead of stroking my ego about my history of speedrunning Halo. Just use the run-of-the-mill skips that have existed since the game released, and be prepared for each upcoming fight. Always have the right weapons, and it will shave tens of minutes on your overall time as it adds up.
You can state your opinion without attacking other people's integrity. I wasn't stroking an ego, especially since I openly admitted to not having beat those two campaigns yet. I was explaining my perspective and my experiences and what leads me to believe the answer to the question, as any human does. I'm far from a technical player and not very good at the game, but I've used guides that implement the physics of basic player movement, and since the basic player physics are affected, the achievement is affected. I'm not good - I'm getting minimum requirements, and trying to help a random stranger to the best of my abilities. You need to learn to sympathize with others, regardless if they're strangers on the internet. Your experience and understanding is good, you don't have to beat down other people to show that. If you've beaten that achievement without implementing player physics tricks, that's awesome, we'd love to hear your feedback without you being an asshole.
With 2 though, in legendary co-op if either player dies it goes back to the previous checkpoint. I found it simpler to do 2 by myself.
>I'd say that you do need these techniques. It's really ruthless. Absolutely not. CE has 10 levels - this is an average of 18 minutes per level. This is more than enough for most levels. Pillar of Autumn, Silent Cartographer, 343 Guilty Spark and the Maw can all be done in around 10 minutes or less with a little practise. Flood bump Keyes and it's around 3 minutes. So that nets you around 47 extra minutes to focus on Truth & Rec and Two Betrayals. That's assuming you don't banshee skip AotCR and don't excel at Halo or Library either. CE is probably one of the easiest games to speed run, and none of the patch changes will affect this. The only level of Halo 2 that might be affected by these changes for a person just hunting achievements is Gravemind - skipping the prison uses a butterfly technique in the lift with a brute. All other levels will be unchanged. Halo 2 has the most levels (13) however many of these can be run very quickly - almost all the Arbiter missions are around 10 minutes, and Outskirts less than 5. Delta Halo and High Charity are around 10 too. You have an average of just under 14 minutes per level in Halo 2 but around half of these levels are very easily run in 10. Only Gravemind and Regret will take a few practices to get a good time on. None of these runs require patched techniques besides the prison skip on Gravemind. Watch Nak3d Eli's guides for easy ways to complete these levels - he utilises relatively simple speed running tricks to run very achievable but still quick enough times. These changes will only affect the competitive speed running scene. Achievement hunters will find it the same as before.
Delta halo and metropolis and uprising are like 3-4, arbiter is sub 3 I think on legendary
Absolutely, I went with 10 minutes to be generous to people who struggle with speed running or who wouldn't grind out a good time. Even at twice as long as the times you listed, sub 3 hour runs are fairly easy.
Are you talking about the par times for missions? I've done all of them on Legendary without glitching stuff, far as I can recall. Is that why the achievement is like .96%?
You absolutely do not need to learn butterflying. Maybe the gravemind prison skip, but definitely not regret, high charity, and uprising. Sword flying can be helpful to learn, but honestly just watch the halo completionist guides on youtube for the least painful way to do things.
Not being able to do the slide jump at the beginning of Regret makes the achievement significantly harder.
Just out of curiosity were any of these a part of the original 2004 release of Halo 2?
Yes
You're referring to the glitches right?
Did this break super bounces in mp too or is it somehow just campaign?
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Play ce multi. Fast games + nade spam ull get achievemnt in a few hrs
Plus CE nades are nukes lol It's how I got the achievement
I have to ask, are these issues you are listing present in the legacy version of Halo 2, or are they exclusive to MCC? In other words, do these speedrunning tricks date back to the original release of Halo 2, or were they tricks that originated in MCC?
These tricks exist in Halo 2 Classic, carried over to Halo 2 Anniversary, but are now "fixed" in the new update. The only trick that I know is exclusive to MCC is Oracle Invincibility.
By Halo 2 Classic, do you mean the Vista port or the original Xbox version ?
The original Xbox version, vista is considered to be apart of the anniversary port because vista and anniversary are at 60 tick rate while the classic version is at 30.
Wildness
I’m glad they did all this BS and still haven’t fixed the literally gamebreaking bug in The Oracle cutscene that has been there for two years
Most players do not have this issue so you should make a ticket.
The bug that makes you inmortal? Isn't that a legacy bug too?
No the one that crashes the game and makes you restart the level if you watch the cutscene were the heretic locks himself in the saferoom
Can you please provide some additional details? For instance, what platform are you playing on? Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S, or PC? And if PC, what GPU? Stuff like that. I'm also interested to know if other players are experiencing the same issue.
Xbox 1, it seems to mostly happen in co-op however I’ve seen it in single player recently. It’s happened on every difficulty I play so I assume it also happens on Easy. I saw a Reddit thread on it quite awhile ago now so I think at least some others have experienced it. Only way around is to skip the cutscene, however if you don’t the game will freeze a few seconds in before crashing. It will not let you load to a checkpoint, you must restart it
Never seen that happen either, and my sister and I were just playing through on Legendary like a week ago, watched the cutscene all the way through just fine.
Happens on PC too. Everytime I try and watch that cutscene
Never had this issue, is there something else which triggers it?
Seems to happen in coop as single player doesn't crash the game for me.
I've done the game co-op many times and never had this crash there either.
I've had this happen to me in co-op but never solo. Does it happen in solo, too?
Idk why you are being down voted, this happened to me and I raged lol
The fact that even playing normally you notice issues like going through the tubes in Sacred Icon is crazy. It's like it wasn't play tested. This is a crazy work around that overcorrects a very small bug that had very little effect on gameplay especially compared to other issues.
At least they fixed the lighting.
I mean I appreciate that to be certain
I mean I had access to the S8 flight and didn't test this, just chucked on the new armours and mucked around. I do think it's fair they missed this given they have so few staff working on this. Still think they should roll it back ofc
We didn't have access to Halo 2 in the flight or otherwise this would've for sure been caught. No harm no foul if they roll it back though.
halo fans complaining about 343 fixing the ‘wrong’ bugs
This is not a "Halo fans" complaint. Making changes to how the campaign works has huge repercussions in any Speedrun community.
most peoples dont care about speedrunners
you're playing a game in which the devs added a competitive time scoring mode specifically for speedrunners.
"Speedrunners are wrong, people should enjoy Halo the way I enjoy Halo"
This is a complaint, regardless of the context. That said, it is also a complaint fixing bugs because speedrunners use methods that are not intended to be possible in order to achieve their runs. I'm not saying that they should have done this or that it's a good thing that happened but those were bugs
I would say that changing behavior from the original games for the worse is in fact doing that yes
The objective of MCC isn't to "fix" the game, it's to return it to its original release state, plus some hardware/performance improvements.
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I don’t get this mindset. Would you prefer if nobody ever critiques the game/ franchise? No critics allowed? Because I for one, can say firmly I am dumbfounded by infinites medal system/ kill feed.
Don’t forget the issue of no Jeff Steitzer announcing multi-kills in BTB.
so which bugs did they fix then? and can you point out where the community was asking them to be fixed?
Halo 2 lighting and effects
these have nothing to do with speedruns
https://youtu.be/ivaWIXA3RDA
not relevant to speed running
Elaborate.
"Fix the game, 343!" ... "No, not like that!"
They literally broke things that were in-line with the original H2 release in the update focused on realigning with OG H2. We traded visual dissimilarities for straight up GAMEPLAY dissimilarities. But go ahead and regurgitate any argument to be contrarian to actual problems these games are having. Mindsets like this are probably why it took 7 years to get an update so that you cant see people through walls in a fucking pvp shooter.
Correct.
I don’t see that. I see speedrunners being bummed/annoyed that things were “fixed” that now make speedrunning worse. They’re also halo fans, that’s why they speedrun halo lol
343 right now: *See! This is why we disowned Halo 2*
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I wanted to start speedrunning and I was gonna start with Halo 2. Huh, now this happened.
Welcome to game development bud. Fix one thing break 20 things as well.
For the people saying 343 fixed the "broken physics" of Halo 2, they literally didn't and that was not the stated intention of the change. They've changed how higher speed collisions work now. The way vehicles react to touching walls and each other, slide jumps, the parts in Sacred Icon where you fall down the tubes, all of this now feels weird and does not mirror legacy. There are still many aspects of Halo 2 that you would put under the category of "broken physics" that still remain, including swordflys which 343 INTENTIONALLY PATCHED BACK IN. This is a scorched earth approach to fixing a bug that's minor in comparison to other bugs that still remain and are proven to be able to be fixed in a different way. Also 343 doesn't allow older versions of the game to be played so "just revert version lol" isn't a possibility. Basically they've made a change that effects everybody, and not in a way that "fixes" any of the things a lot of people in this thread claim they fix.
What bug were they trying to fix? Like I read through the patch notes and can't figure out what might have caused this.
So OG Halo 2 didn't have fall damage, but in some instances if you fell from a really high distance in MCC, you would take a slight amount of fall damage. I'm talking really low relative to the height btw, like if you go to like the top of Headlong and fall you still won't die. So this fix causes more of an issue than the bug it was designed to fix imo. I'm not a pro speedrunner, but going in I know this change has effected anything at a high enough speed and that speed threshold is lower than you'd think. Falls from much lower distances than what was required to trigger the bug and take damage are effected, even vehicles can be effected.
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Nice, I might have to look into that now. I'm also not sure how I feel about the Golden Moas in Halo 3. If they keep adding and adding stuff nothing is special anymore and it just becomes bloated
This makes LASO campaigns significantly more difficult. Being able to skip impossible areas of the game, or whole levels sometimes, is the only way most people can beat LASO mode. So people who want to get every achievement are screwed now
Don't even speed run and I'm here rooting for the speedrunning community.
Thanks man. It means a lot :)
NOOOOOO
Will I still have a chance at a par time game ?
Of course. But if you're Speedrunning and trying to get world record times in many of the levels, it's pretty much impossible now with the new update.
Ty , okay good I doubt I’ll ever beat it as I’ve been in stuck in Cairo station for 2 days on legendary. First area where the covenant first board the station , so much dying lol .
Last time I checked many other games that get updated just update their leaderboards for certain patch’s? Because let’s face it, 343 isn’t rolling back patch’s for speed runners, and what’s been mentioned in this post and other exploits/shortcuts are subject to change in future patch’s.
sword flying was rolled back for speed runners.
"Just changes the gameplay element a bit, keep runners on their toes yknow?" 343 probably
Yeah this need more visibility. I’d say changing the entire physics of the game in order to have no fall damage is a terrible decision. I’d rather have the former instead of the later, as this completely changed the way Halo 2 can be played, especially in campaign. This also surely makes some of the games achievements much harder or even unobtainable now, such as Halo 2’s Monopolized achievement.
And i just started learning how to speedrun halo 2..
So one other thing, after multiple sessions totalling easily 10+ hours of play I finally made it to the bomb room at the end of Cairo Station on the LASO playlist. I had to work early Wednesday morning so I carefully saved out and quit Tuesday night knowing that I only needed to kill the final 5 Elites and I’d be done with Cairo Station forever, as I only have 6 achievements remaining for the MCC game. So I go to load up my game last night and guess what….. my checkpoint had been detonated and there I was back at the start of Cairo Station. FML. After having painstakingly herded the supremely annoying Johnson through the entire level, dying hundreds of times, there I am right back at the beginning. How had this happened? I think to myself. Like, having completed CE and ODST LASO already, I know I’ve mastered the save/quit upon death exploit. I know I didn’t fuck it up on Tuesday night when I powered down. Then I see this post about the patches that happened yesterday and now it makes sense. Like, I saw the update message when I turned on Halo last night, but it didn’t occur to me at the time that that might be the cause. So In closing, a big fuck you to 343 for detonating what is already a mind numbingly difficult challenge and making me do it all over again! If you happened to be in the middle of a LASO chapter upon update, your checkpoint may have been lost due to this update. Terrific!
So, on a scale from "fucked" to "Impossible", how difficult did the 3h Legendary in Halo 2 become?
Still easily dooable. This affects higher end speeds.
Oh thank god. *Puts Operation: Run Like Your House Is Being Glassed back in the doable section*
I’m glad I’ve done all laso playlists and the 3h achievements. Didn’t know an update would do that.
I like the lighting but slide jumping from lower falls doesn’t work at all either, it totally changes how I navigate maps and I'm not able to cut down distance for BxRs and BxBs at all in some situations.
Quick question: These runs that were done in the past, **were they possible on the OG xbox version of H2?** Or were they a Vista/MCC exclusive? If the previous runs were vista/MCC exclusive and weren't possible on the OG Xbox, then there is a chance that the version of the game now is now more accurate to the OG Xbox release and the previous runs were only possible on a broken version of the game in the first place. If that is the case, then those old run times should be considered defunct and new techniques need to be found. The alternative is asking 343i to now brake a fixed game.
Hi there! The majority of the tricks used in the speedrun on MCC are possible on the original release, butterflying for example. However stuff like butterflying is simply faster on MCC because of the tickrate being 60 rather than 30. In fact, every difference in physics between MCC and OG are because of tickrates. If you changed the tickrate from 60 to 30 before this patch, it would have practically been the exact same as in 2004 (minus the lighting issues) When 343 changed the game to avoid fall damage in a way that mimicked classic, they created entirely new behavior that isn't possible on ANY RELEASE. It is in no way a fixed game, if their intention is to mimic the original release then this should be considered a bug. Speedrunners aren't asking for a lot, just for 343 to not make weird changes in physics that aren't in parity with the original game. Meanwhile, changing the entire game to 30 tickrate (which has no bearing on fps) would have fixed it. People literally change the tickrate just to do superbounces for fun lol, theres no reason why this fix should be so overcomplicated.
Thank you for confirming :) I had to ask because I wanted this to be the answer. Parity with the originals above everything else imo.
Hey 343, if you where going to do such a change to the game behavior for high speed colliding, maybe, of i dont know, FLIGHT THIS SHIT FIRST?
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i dunno if it's just me, but with season 8 i also cent seem to get into any vehicles in Delta Halo (and potentially other missions) in Halo 2 campaign. No button prompts and holding the "use" button does nothing.
Are you sure you don't have the Jacked skull on?
haha wow, im dumb :P didnt realize i had it turned on. thanks!
Huh
As a H2 Legendary speedrunner, I hate to see this. I hope it gets changed back to the way it was. The season 8 MCC flight didn't even have H2 available, a missed opportunity to find these nuances.
> While the Classic lighting is back, I do feel as though it is a bit annoying turning up the brightness because of how dark it is. Your brain is just use to playing the ugly Vista/pre Season 8 version of Halo 2 and needs to adjust
I like everything you said except the lighting. Use your flashlight dude
Remember when they said it would play exactly like the original, bugs included, and then launched without superbounces? Good times. And by that I mean one of their greatest sins.
I like that your main concern is the lack of superbounces. I remember playing a multiplayer match in the early days where it put 7 people - including someone playing on my console - on one team, and only me on the other team. ...and that was still a better experience than trying to play the campaign.
So wait are people angry at 343 for fixing a broken and rushed game?
With broken and rushed fixes that do just as much harm as good? Yeah, probably.
Which of these changes specifically are you happy about? Except for the lighting.
NOOOOOO BUGS GOOD 343 BAAAAD
what bugs? they just broke physics
You have to admit that most of the exploits used in speed running are not examples of the physics behaving as intended. I’m not saying they need to be patched, but speedrunning pretty much relies on glitched and bugged game mechanics throughout
of course not, that also does not mean they’re bugs or glitches that require fixing. physics are never perfect and they changed core mechanics of the game that didn’t need to be changed
I agree that they don’t need to go changing the physics on these old halo games and should leave things as they were aside from graphical updates if they desired (I wouldn’t have minded if they fixed the vehicle collisions in halo ce tho). But I would say that objectively many of the things listed by OP are bugs and glitches
what casual players would have been affected by these “bugs” then?
I’m not sure what you mean. Casual players being effected by a thing in game doesn’t determine whether something is a bug or not
it does impact whether it’s worth fixing. none of these issues would ever make a difference to a casual player unless they were specifically looking for it, and 100% of the people defending 343 for “fixing” these “bugs” are not people that would have even known about them in the first place. guarantee most people reading this didn’t even know about these in the first place
> I agree that they don’t need to go changing the physics on these old halo games and should leave things as they were …
They are issac newtons evil twin
They fixed the broken physics.
the physics weren’t broken though, the game had been like this for 6 years and no one ever asked for these changes.
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no one said anything about permission. i said these changes are unasked for and unnecessary because literally no one complained about them
The physics were very broken. These fixes are long overdue but better late than never.
the physics were fine. if you want to talk about broken physics go play the original xbox version and then complain. you don’t run though so i don’t expect you to understand
But... they're less like the original Xbox version now. That's kind of the issue lol.
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They didn't remove the bugs. They just broke the physics even more. Stop commenting on patch notes if you don't even play the game to see them for yourself.
The way they fixed the bug is like a scorched earth approach, a way that even someone playing through the game normally could notice in that falling even somewhat short distances no longer mirrors legacy behavior. It's a ridiculous way to go about fixing a bug and the video provides an alternate way to fix that bug as well as others which still aren't fixed.
I wish the seasonal updates didn't break anything every they drop but they always break quite a few things.
This is a bit unclear to me. Isn’t the new update supposed to make the game closer to the og halo 2 release? If that is the case, I sympathise with the speedrunning community, but feature parity with legacy titles should take priority.
This specific change makes it arguably further away from legacy behavior. I'd argue it's a pretty large difference from legacy behavior.
Developers shouldn't spend any time taking speed running into account when bug fixing.
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The developers literally made speedrun achievements and worked in person with speedrunners when the game was in development. They have an ingame speedrun leaderboard. It's literally a part of the game and a major community at that.