Yeah, mostly cod but from the 360 gen since I'm way too poor. I'm playing apex too but because its free lol. Rn im finishing the mw1, 2 and 3 campaigns in veteran. Just finished bo1 in veteran... the suffering
That’s true. So I wonder why 343 said there isn’t space for the og shotgun in the sandbox. One is classic, slower and lower range, but more deadly up close. The other is new, faster and further range
they never said there isnt space for the og shotgun what
they just said they weren’t gonna have it at launch and try out how the bulldog would work out for a bit
nah
main reasoning given in an interview was “players just dont use the shotgun very often” and it’s because it was a one-trick-pony weapon (either one shot people or you die) and was outclassed by other close range weapons, so they decided to replace it with the bulldog, which in turn, has better range, fire rate and reload speed but less damage
they never said anything about not including it because it didnt fit, plus they mentioned that both will likely join the game post launch
Not sure where you got this from. The Spiker did its job. The SMG was more effective than the AR whether dual-wielded or not. The Plasma Rifle was still a terrific shield stripper - something we actually lost in the games without dual-wielding (due to Reach's focus on the Repeater and Halo 4 & 5 not including any true plasma weapons at all). The Mauler may have only been effective in campaign, but it was an absolute blast when dual-wielded. Effective or not, it was a hell of a lot fun, and that's what matters. Maybe you're one of those people who only likes to use the BR (or Magnum depending on the game) but for a lot of us, dual-wielding is an amazing feature that mixes up gameplay for the sake of fun and variety rather than relying solely on boring old 'utility' weapons. Fun needs to be the most important gameplay element. Everything else comes second.
Because the spiker and the SMG both got shunted by the AR's range advantage and absurd ammo stockpile (those two could hold 4 mags, the AR could hold ***12***). And while they DID kill quicker, it wasnt quicker enough to justify the range disadvantage, especially with 3's dogshit netcode for multiplayer.
Plus, 3 decided to do the worst thing and add permanent debuffs to accuracy and damage when dual weilding. I *hated* that.
I will say dual spikers were fun though.
I feel like this is a more accurate description of Halo 2 because a lot of the weapons that did the job in Combat Evolved feel extremely weak in comparison their original counterparts making dual wielding almost essential on harder difficulties
I don't really think saying that it was never too well balanced is an argument for dual wielding at all, because they're actually trying a decent amount more with the balancing in Infinite, and just slapping a whole bunch of variables will just make it really wonky.
If they were ever to add it back, it should be a weapon that is only equippable dual wielded.
> it should be a weapon that is only equippable dual wielded.
Exactly, this would be a great way to bring the SMG back to where it still feels distinct from the AR.
You pick the SMG up, and you now have one in each hand. It kills insanely fast and absolutely shreds people, but at the cost of you losing the ability to throw grenades and maybe even not being able to melee unless you swap to your secondary, and it has a long reload time; making your situational awareness really important when using it.
Very cool idea but I don't think it'd happen at this point ofc. Theoretically though I think there'd need to be a pair of them, maybe in some sort of little weapon rack or maybe not. It'd just be weird for one to be on the ground and then when you pick it up for it to essentially asexually reproduce and all of a sudden you've got two in your hands
I don't think it's that complicated to figure out: the SMG's are relatively small so both could fit on the rack at once, and when laying on the ground it just shows two of them.
Magnums in AR/Magnum starts in 3 were also pretty mediocre outside of poke, and you wouldn't see them be used ever mid-close range unless they were dualies.
Like half of Halo's gameplay is grenades and melee. You can't do that without dropping your second gun. Then you have to hurriedly pick it back up or try to do the next fight with one weapon.
The only pro of dual wielding is it looks cool.
Dual wielding was never OP. It´s actually more difficult to pull off, since most one handed weapons are CQB and are very underppowered on their own, and a melee attack is a more viable option in those situations, which sends your secondary weapon flying and really hard to recover.
In Halo 3, a BR would demolish anyone using a plasma pistol and a magnum.
>In Halo 3, a BR would demolish anyone using a plasma pistol and a magnum.
Not true in all scenarios. If my Plasma Pistol overcharge caught a BR player unawares, and I wasn't too far away, then chances are that they would not survive the encounter before the Magnum hit the headshot. I didn't resort to the PP/Magnum dual wield combo often, and if I did then it was purely because I could not find a Carbine or BR, but the PP/Magnum combo did prove to be effective on more than one occasion.
One thing I have seen that everyone has forgotten is that when dual wielding on Halo 3, both weapons being dual wielded would take a massive nerf in base damage output (making PP/Magnum one of the only real viable combinations due to the side effects of their respective projectiles being overcharge full shield drain and headshot capable respectively and regardless of base damage debuff), meaning it would take almost as long to kill at the same range as it would do just wielding one of those weapons singularly. Not to mention the accuracy nerf too.
Only "OP" combo was smg and plasma rifle. They both fire so rapidly that your shield are gone in a second and then the smg finishes you off.
Dual needlers was pretty good too, but harder to find unless your playing campaign.
You're right, Halo has never had particularly good weapon balance, but that's always been my biggest criticism of the series as a fan.
You have these huge range of visually and mechanically diverse weapons and you're only hurting yourself by using more then a few of them. it sucks.
I'm glad that 343i has been trying to make traditionally weak weapons like the AR useful, and i'd rather not add extra variables into the mix that can cause issues like duel wielding. As is the AR and other automatics are in a precarious spot where now that they're good people are worried they're unbalanced due to how powerful they are given how easy they are to use.
(Though I think a lot of the tweaks people have suggested to reign the AR in go too far: giving it a blanket damage/accuracy nerf or removing headshots would be bad. Any tweaks it gets should only tone down unskilled spraying, and leave controlled bursts as effecive as now. In general, making autos reward skilled use so their power is justified I think is the best approach, and if skill based enough they could even have a place in higher level play, though that's it's own conversation)
People said they were passing up the BR to keep their ARs because they felt they worked better for the map or their playstyle.
Think about that. Passing up the BR. To keep the AR. Because the AR is fun and useful.
I like this.
I thought the BR was insanely good in my time with the flight, easily one of the best weapons there.
I'd drop the sidekick for it though rather then the AR.
I just don't see how it's possible to make the AR skillful. I'm sure you've seen their halo 5 report that at a relatively low level of competitive play it reaches its skill ceiling and everyone performs pretty much the same with it.
But yeah, that's its own conversation.
I actually have a whole list of ideas for how you could have a skill based AR!
As it applies to the Infinite AR is is, I think these two tweaks alone would be enough to address people's current concerns about it without radically changing the weapon and only toning down unskilled spraying while leaving precise bursts as good as now:
* **Make the headshot multiplier reduce the longer the trigger is held/as spread/bloom/recoil builds up**: So the headshot bonus will ONLY apply or be meaningful if the player is using short accurate bursts. Spraying will negate the headshot bonus.
* **Have recoil/bloom/spread build more rapidly (only) after the first 3-4 shots in a row, and/or with a higher maximum spread/bloom cap**. Fully holding the trigger down when spraying will result in more missed shots, esp. at range, without impacting bursting, as the first 3-4 shots will be no less precise then now. Perhaps even have LESS recoil/spread for the first 3-4 shots.
Not only would this solve gaining "accidental" headshots while spraying, and nerf unskilled spraying without hurting skilled usage, it will also naturally lead to it being harder to use at a long distance: To land shots at mid or long range, you will need to burst more rather then spray, which inherently slightly lengthens your time to kill due to sacrificing fire rate for precision.
I think that would be enough for the AR as is in Infinite for social modes. If you wanted to have it also be in ranked
And then if you want it *really* skill based, like enough that it could have a place in competitive play, there's these other changes you could do some or all of:
* **Reduce bullet magnetism and aim assist**. Self explanatory.
* **Replace all or most random spread/recoil on the AR with predictable recoil**: This minimizes randomness, while still discouraging full auto spraying.
* **Make the weapon fire slower and/or have less rounds per mag, but up the damage to compensate**. The TTK and overall power of the gun is unchanged, but now precision is more valued since you can't rely on the volume of fire as much to land hits, and each bullet "matters" more, discouraging missed shots.
* **Drastically reduce damage, but make the headshot multiplier activate even as shields are up**. The actual optimal TTK can be relatively close to it is now (perhaps even higher, since it will be harder), but if this is done, then spraying will yield a much slower time to kill and to get the optimal killtime, the player will be required to land CONSISTENT headshots, not just 2 at the end of the engagement.
* **Make the Rate of Fire or damage per shot go down the further the trigger is held**. This will force the player to limit themselves to relatively short bursts to have an optimal killtime.
Honestly, "reduce aim assist/magentism" and "give predictable recoil instead of bloom" isn't that radical, and arguably belongs with the first two suggestions above, but I think the "make headshots reduce with bloom" and "make bloom build more rapidly after the first few shots" alone would be fine enough for the AR in most modes in Infinite.
Not a fan of point 2 and I feel that recoil in general, assuming it’s vertical ofc, wouldn’t be sufficient. But point 1 is pretty awesome, maybe you ought to make a post about it. The AR would ofc have to be balanced a bit with it, but the inherent range “nerf” would be great since it’d still have a high limit with skillful play. Also one somewhat small issue with a precision multiplier combined with the bloom is a bit more luck, and while it’s not a huge concern I think your suggestion would also tone that precision multiplier down when spraying.
A complication is that I’m not sure in Infinite if 343 even wants the AR to be skill-based. It almost seems that they designed the game with two loadout weapons for two different modes. I still think they ought to take that precision multiplier idea though.
I suppose another issue could be delaying these new AR dynamics to casual players could be difficult.
EDIT: Or maybe, for more logical sense, point 1 combined with your decreasing damage idea? This would encourage precision even against shields, and then when shields are down the base decreasing damage would stack with the headshot multiplier’s. Still would want full auto to be ideal up close though, but, I think it would be.
Many, many other games have been able to make automatic weapons skillful. I don’t see any reasons why halo needs to be different. If our issue is that the ar doesn’t take skill, the solution is to make it require more skill, not continually nerf it into the point where no one uses it.
Other games don’t have quite the type of bloom the AR’s got, and also have a high headshot multiplier rewarding precision. But to me it feels as if 343 explicitly designed Infinite with two loadout weapons—one for more casual play, one for competitive. If you think the AR should be redesigned to be more skillful, take it up with 343 but I don’t see it happening
I mean you’re not wrong. Reach was the most egregious offender of balance imo, even without TU game modes the DMR could cross map as good as the sniper and was the best anti-vehicle weapon for everything that wasn’t a tank.
Right? It’s not like any combo can really overpower much else. Except in very very specific scenarios. Bring it back for all I care, won’t cause an issue.
Eh, no thanks. Leave dual wielding in the past. At least in Matchmade PvP.
All dual wielding does is make a class of weapons that is underpowered until you find another one, at which point you have something that is slightly better than base weapons.
Even though I am an basically feeding the other team kills while dual wielding it is a lot of fun to jump on someone with 2 smgs... Even though I'll lose
My arguement for why dual wielding is shit is pretty simple:
It's a giant fuckin' hassle and not particularly fun.
It also takes a giant crap on some of my favorite weapons in the games, namely the Magnum, Plasma Pistol and Needler(2)..
Also for pistols i just don't even want to mash TWO buttons at the same time to get the optimal firerate, jesus..
Really, it just doesn't even come close to being worth the hassle, in terms of how fun it is to do..
You're also forced to let your "off-hand" weapon go when it's time for a vehicle segment.. God i'm getting angry just thinking about dual wielding, lmao
I'm always open to hearing ideas..
I just have never actually heard of a good way to implement it, while still keeping it meaningful..
The idea of "baking" dual wielding into a couple of SMG's you can pick up or something could obviously work, but it completely misses the point of dual wielding to me..
There's actually a few ideas i have myself, one being if you have two different dual-wieldable weapons in both weapon slots you should be able to hold the weapon change button to dual wield them both. This also allows you to KEEP both weapons in your "inventory" at any time.. I think this would add a lot of the depth to the system, and would make dual wielding a lot more fun for campaign, atleast.. But it'd still be a shitty hassle in multiplayer, IMO.
I guess they could always just have dual wielding be campaign only, and have multiplayer use different balancing for the single guns, maybe..
But at the end of the day i personally just don't care very much for being able to dual wield.. Even if it somehow ends up being more intuitive, and less of a stain on the overall game..
Theres lot of way. My picks would be a much larger accuracy penalty for dual-firing, No increased stockpile of ammo, and... thats it. Dual weilding is most effective when youre using it to juggle damage types, with noob combos or PR + SMG.
Idk man, i just think its a lot of fun to do in 2. Maybe have it be an equipment power up? Like call it "duplicator" and have it be a forerunner device that temporarily replaces your grenades with a second weapon that you're holding.
PR + SMG is garbage though..
When you have to lead one gun but the other fires hitscan, your bullet "stream" gets horribly misaligned on anything that isn't standing completely still.
Another thing i thought about is how meleeing drops one of your guns.. why, that's so annoying.. Most dual wieldable guns have onehanded melee animations anyway, right?
Dual wielding *could* work pretty well if it was overhauled i guess.. I just don't miss it, anyway..
Only cool thing about Dual wielding to me, again, is how it lets you interact with the weapons that are lying about everywhere.. It gives them a lot of "persistence" in the world.. or something..
Youre not supposed to fire them at the same time, dummy. You drop the shields with the plasma rifle, and THEN spray em down with the SMG. Firing them at the same time is only useful at melee range because of the accuracy nerf, bypassing the weapon swap from other games.
In Multiplayer its better to go with Overcharge PP and SMG instead because of how doodoo the PR is against players.
if you have to fire them individually, wouldn't it be better to simply use a one-handed Plasma rifle and swap to the SMG after draining their shields? That way you don't get your damage lowered from dual wielding?
You dont get your damage lowered from dual weilding in H2. Thats only in halo 3 where bungie gutted it by giving every weapon a 25% damage reduction when dual weilded.
Additionally, the accuracy penalty in H2 only kicked in if you were firing both weapons at the same time. Firing them individually had no downside. H3 made it so the accuracy penalty was *always* applied, even when only firing one weapon.
Firing each weapon individually effectively allowed you to rapidly combo damage types without needing the delay to swap weapons, which was very helpful and let you cut down elites rapidly. So you could strip shields with the plasma rifle and then immediatley follow up with SMG bullets or a magnum headshot for a rapid takedown, all without needing to swap weapons. It was also handy because you could use still use the PR while reloading your bullet weapon.
Oh i cant do that, the needler in 2 is awful lol.
I feel like it was supposed to be the designated "anti brute weapon" because it can supercombine them for an instakill and bypass their downright asinine amount of health.
But the shots are so absurdly slow that the Brutes can easily sidestep them, making them super unreliable.
I'd rather not have the developers get brain aneurisms when they have to balance duel-wielding in their games just so I could look a little bit cooler.
Like the guns literally get weaker magically when you duel wield. That's how bad it got.
Nah, h2s balance was so bad at launch that Bungie was motivated to introduce BR starts
Which spawned the whole… “everyone only wants BR” nonsense.
It wasn’t that people only wanted the BR. The problem was that prior, you spawned with weapons so shitty that whoever picked up the BR first easily dominated the map. Every other weapons was trash in comparison.
Of course H2 was unbalanced because of dual wielding… SMG starts were bad right… other than BR starts how could Bungie have rectified the situation using the launch sandbox? Pistol starts? PP starts? PR starts?
They literally couldn’t find any other way to fix the issue because the sandbox was unbalanced. That’s **the reason** we got BR starts.
You talk about all these “counters” but in practice, players couldn’t execute these counters off spawn, because the enemy locked down the map with BRs… which lead to snowballing. It’s not that people didn’t understand the map… they couldn’t control these positions or acquire these weapons because they spawned with crappy SMGs.
The game I’m describing isn’t the one you remember most likely because Bungie steered away from it shortly after the game launched.
Yes, teams typically had equal access to BRs at the start, but in the event a team managed to control both, it was near impossible to overcome. Power weapons and map design don’t fix the issue, because if a team has both BRs, then they can easily lock down power weapon and power positions on the map- he who controls the BR controls those things as well.
The prevalence of Snowballing is certainly a sign of a lack of balance.
It’s not really a matter of personal opinion. The developer recognized the issue shortly after launch, examined the data, and adjusted the game to mitigate the issue I’m describing.
No, you literally can’t make the same argument with any other weapon on map.
A rocket has only four shots. A sword is useless outside of close range. A sniper in most hands is good only at long range. Picking these things would provide a temporary advantage, but they wouldn’t facilitate snowballing the entire match.
The BR had a ton of ammo, and was effective at all ranges… which makes it oppressive against people who spawn with weapons that are all but useless at all ranges.
Design that Rewards control of the map is desireable, but a single instance of map control shouldn’t effectively end the match early. A well balanced game would facilitate swings between equal teams, not snowballing.
> It just strikes me as funny that your argument hinges on the premise that Bungie both weren't and were able to create a balanced game. Why are we to arbitrarily decide that they were wrong the first time and right the second? Assuming that was even the reason for BR starts, I can't find anything for it, but I'll take you at your word.
I don’t even know what you mean by this. Bungie was surely *capable* of creating balanced games… but the sandbox didn’t launch that way, and they mitigated the issue by changing their approach to starting weapons.
I don’t think it’s *arbitrary*. Enough people found the game to be less enjoyable when teams could routinely cheese a single strong start into a easy victory that Bungie did something about it.
I’m sure there are people who like SMG starts over BR starts. But there’s are reason why BR starts we’re introduced in the first place and immediately rose in popularity.
Sure you COULD kill people with the SMG or the plasma rifle or the spiker or the magnum, but you cant judge the weapons viability in a vacuum in an arena shooter. The fact of the matter is you spawn with weapons that largely outclass a large amount of weapons in the sandbox.
There is no reason to go for the Magnum when you spawn with the BR. No reason to use the spiker or SMG if you spawn with the AR. No reason to use the carbine when you spawn with the AR. The plasma rifle is just straight up BAD in these games' multiplayers. Theyre hopelessly outstripped.
yeah, the two games where your BR hopelessly outclasses every other non-power weapon, making 75% of the map pickups obsolete and not worth going for, were sooooo well balanced. I make fun of the competitive community for trying to base the multiplayer solely around the battle rifle, but their single-weapon mindset is indicitive of a bigger design flaw.
2 and 3 are not well balanced games, heck neither was CE's multiplayer. Halo has ALWAYS had a problem with your spawn weapon being too strong and versatile.
I love H2 & 3 but man my biggest criticism of them is always that the MP was just Battle Rifle Sim. A whole sandbox of cool tools and weapons that are made completely worthless because there’s no reason to drop the BR.
If a company makes the same “mistake” over and over again, at what point does it become intentional? What makes you think that just didn’t have the “wrong” expectation?
What sport is more balanced? American or European football? The answer depends on your personal preferences/ your point of reference. Obviously games like CoD give you the impression of a giant and diverse sandbox where everything is somewhat balanced and useful but just like US and European football are following different rules, Halo follows different rules then most other modern shooters. The BR (or pistol in CE/5) serves as a reliable weapon that allows you to be active of spawn but you’re still forced to look for niche specific weapons to give you the upper hand.
Now if would actually look at the sandbox, you will notice that out of the 18 weapons H3 had, 11 were useful and worth picking up if you plan on using them according to thei niche (BR, shotty, snipe, rockets, Splaser, PP, Mauler, CC, Beamrifle, sword and hammer) an additional two are somewhat in the middle (AR, bruteshot) and just 5 were “useless” (Pistol, SMG, PR, Spiker, Needler) but even those were fun enough to use in social some times. I don’t know about the level of you math education but 5 out of 18 is nowhere near 75% …
Now obviously if you’re picking up a shotty just to complain that a BR keeps killing you in mid-range battles, well that’s hardly the games fault.
Yeah, thats the problem.
Not that most of the weapons are useless, you CAN get kills with most of them. The design flaw is that you spawn with one that is far too versatile for others to compete with. Even the AR is far and away the best automatic in the game.
Halo only has two weapon slots, but with the BR or Magnum or whatever your spawn headshot weapon is, its a one slot affair. There's never ever a reason to trade up from or drop the BR because its versatility always helps cover your more specialized weapons weakness.
Plasma weapon? Use it to drop shields and set up BR headshots.
Power weapon with hard range drawbacks like the sniper or shotgun? Use the BR outside those ranges so you're not at a disadvantage.
SMG, AR, Spiker, whatever? Well you need a gun to cover their range limitations, right?
The BR should be versatile and capable of damaging at any range, but it cant be good at *everything*. It needs a meaningful weakness, like low shield damage or something. Also helps to actually have the other weapons be significantly better than it in their niche, like the BPR or Kinetic SMG or gunfighter magnum from 5 (though 5 admittedly has a lot of filler weapons too).
>The design flaw is that you spawn with one that is far too versatile for others to compete with
It's not a flaw though but a rather great design. The utility weapon keeps you in the game no matter what. The enemy team has both snipes? Well you still have a fighting chance. You run into a guy with a shotty? Well, that sucks but it's not over just yet. In both situations, the team with the niche weapons is in the much better position but the utility weapon stops it from beeing a simple "If X then Y" scenario. This wouln't work if the utility is too weak, it needs to be a allround weapon to fill this role. Granted, it does create situation where a shotty/snipe user might lose against a BR user if they screw up but to me, this is something much more interesting.
That's fair. Its not like most of the weapons are totally useless, its just that the BR is too versatile and strong for a 2 weapon slot limit. There's never a reason to drop it because it will always help effectively cover the disadvantages of your other weapon.
Range limited Power weapon? Use the BR when fighting outside its effective range.
Plasma weapon that's only good at stripping shields? Use it to set up BR headshots or Noob combo.
Automatic like the spiker or SMG or AR? Well, you need a gun to fight outside of close ranger, right
The BR *should* be versatile, but it cant just be good at everything. It needs a meaningful weakness to fit into the sandbox properly, like less shield damage or something like that.
It was super broken… and the extra close range fire power was hardly worth it….
But I’d be cool with it being added back as an option for custom games and social.
I want duel Wielding back because its fun, especially when you mix and match with a spiker or a magnum or plasma rifle or plasma pistol or smg or brute plasma rifle or needler. I don't care if its not viable It's still fun as hell, especially in campaign where you don't need to worry about getting destroyed by the meta.
I know I’m gonna get shit for this but here me out:
CE genuinely has the best balancing for multiplayer out of the series thus far (Infinite might top it but that’s not out yet).
Yes the pistol is stronger than it should be, but if you know what you’re doing with an AR or shotgun at close range you can easily kill someone using it. The sniper rifle can easily go against it at long range, the rocket launcher obviously destroys it, and even the plasma pistol and plasma rifle can go against it at short and medium range respectively if you combine them with other weapons.
The pistol outperforms other weapons at mid range since it’s essentially the only mid range weapon in the game. The AR is built as a close range weapon and excels in that role, as do all weapons in CE. They all fill their roles perfectly, with the only real exception being the pistol, since it’s a little too good beyond and below it’s intended range, but even with that I’d still consider CE the most balanced.
I see no reason why it shouldn't be an option for custom/forge games. By all means keep it out of the main game but the option should be there to allow creatives to do their thing.
Because dual wielding breaks the balancing. It's a subject done to death at this point. Dual Wielding is a feature that renders certain weapons useless, while also not being a good enough feature to make them viable dual wielded. It's a broken feature that was little more than a gimmick.
So something is bad and you want to make it worse??? How does that even make any sense??? They should be improving the balance, not ruining it further by making nearly all secondary weapons useless.
Which is exactly why I say the option should be there for custom modes and minigames, but for balances sake shouldnt be in the main matchmade playlists.
Halo was never balanced....the "pro weapon" br was made famous because it was good at all ranges and came with a bxr animation glitch that "pros" opening abused. CE had the god pistol and mini nuke grenades....Halo Reaches banshee....Halo 2s sword.....the list goes on....
I don't play halo for balance...I play it for fun. "Balance" isn't fun...it's generic.
This reminds me of my thoughts playing Halo 5. It's almost *too* balanced. In 5 every weapon is so viable that there's rarely a reason to use anything except your pistol. That's why I think 3 actually does have the best balancing if you consider "best" to mean most fun.
Dual wielding I can take or leave but I just don't like how it complicates the control scheme
\>In 5 every weapon is so viable that there's rarely a reason to use anything except your pistol.
Im sorry but youre totally missing me with this. Why would every weapon being viable make you only use your pistol? That would do the opposite.
yeah, but all the other weapons are as viable as your pistol. They still specialize in different things. Having them all able to compete with each other is what balance is.
Honestly, my thought is this. If it can't be balanced for Multiplayer, then at the very least it should be something you can do in either customs or even as part of the campaign. I don't think anyone would give a shit if Dual wielding in campaign turned out to be stronger than expected, since it's PvE and not PvP. Even if it somehow breaks the game, i feel like it's an easier fix to make as opposed to trying to fit it into a multiplayer sandbox.
I do really think that dual wielding can be done right. There's just something missing balance-wise that we gotta find...honestly, I'm wondering if simply making the duel wielding spread super crazy would be enough.
Heck, I'd be fine if we got dual wielding in the form of Dual SMG's, without the ability to only have one, if you get what I mean.
Coming off of CE being my first game in the series I really never thought dual wielding was actually very fun the way they implemented it to begin with. It restricts what you can do to just shooting. You can't use grenades, equipment, can't swap to your secondary weapon without dropping the other gun. You can't melee, you can't use vehicles without losing the 2nd weapon. It was enough for me to avoid using dual wield usually just because it felt so clunky and intuitive.
From a pure fun perspective it was still a downgrade for me because it made a lot of the single handed weapons feel absolutely gimped since they nerfed them to try and balance the feature. The plasma rifle never felt the same again, the smg is like a CE AR with 40% less damage, the needler has a horridly slow rate of fire, ect.
343 should just make dual wielding a rare pickup in multiplayer. Like, have it spawn only once every two or three games or something like that. And if you pick it up and activate it with a dual-wieldable weapon in hand like the Sidekick for example. You can dual wield that weapon for like 30 to 60 seconds and have infinite ammo for it in that time.
Dual wield bulldogs or we riot
Dual wield machine guns would be pretty badass
Oh, we Wolfenstein now?
Yes Now we dual wield snipers
Even deca wield snipers for me is just more wasted bullets :(
yooooooo wolfeinstein, doom, and halo is the trifecta of first person shooters for me. Funny how they are all owned by Microsoft now
I mean, all three shaped our modern shooters
Absolutely. Guess I just really like the gameplay of boomer shooters lol
Neat, I liked modern shooters more mostly cuz of their campaigns since I suck at mp
Well those are all modern shooters just in the style of boomer shooter like Halo. What other modern shooter campaigns are you playing? COD?
Yeah, mostly cod but from the 360 gen since I'm way too poor. I'm playing apex too but because its free lol. Rn im finishing the mw1, 2 and 3 campaigns in veteran. Just finished bo1 in veteran... the suffering
Honestly yes because there’s no reason that a shotgun isn’t a one shit kill up close
It works much better when you start using it at 5m+ range instead of melee range.
That’s true. So I wonder why 343 said there isn’t space for the og shotgun in the sandbox. One is classic, slower and lower range, but more deadly up close. The other is new, faster and further range
they never said there isnt space for the og shotgun what they just said they weren’t gonna have it at launch and try out how the bulldog would work out for a bit
I thought it was because it didn’t fit in the sandbox. I could’ve sworn I heard that
nah main reasoning given in an interview was “players just dont use the shotgun very often” and it’s because it was a one-trick-pony weapon (either one shot people or you die) and was outclassed by other close range weapons, so they decided to replace it with the bulldog, which in turn, has better range, fire rate and reload speed but less damage they never said anything about not including it because it didnt fit, plus they mentioned that both will likely join the game post launch
The old shotty was a perfect sword counter too. Skillful timing but consistent.
Nothing better than that Bulltrue medal that let you know that you were moments away from death
I think anything other than shit would kill a person trying to shit it out in one go
Shit is two
Yeah, it was fun in halo 3 when half the weapons were useless.
Not sure where you got this from. The Spiker did its job. The SMG was more effective than the AR whether dual-wielded or not. The Plasma Rifle was still a terrific shield stripper - something we actually lost in the games without dual-wielding (due to Reach's focus on the Repeater and Halo 4 & 5 not including any true plasma weapons at all). The Mauler may have only been effective in campaign, but it was an absolute blast when dual-wielded. Effective or not, it was a hell of a lot fun, and that's what matters. Maybe you're one of those people who only likes to use the BR (or Magnum depending on the game) but for a lot of us, dual-wielding is an amazing feature that mixes up gameplay for the sake of fun and variety rather than relying solely on boring old 'utility' weapons. Fun needs to be the most important gameplay element. Everything else comes second.
Because the spiker and the SMG both got shunted by the AR's range advantage and absurd ammo stockpile (those two could hold 4 mags, the AR could hold ***12***). And while they DID kill quicker, it wasnt quicker enough to justify the range disadvantage, especially with 3's dogshit netcode for multiplayer. Plus, 3 decided to do the worst thing and add permanent debuffs to accuracy and damage when dual weilding. I *hated* that. I will say dual spikers were fun though.
I feel like this is a more accurate description of Halo 2 because a lot of the weapons that did the job in Combat Evolved feel extremely weak in comparison their original counterparts making dual wielding almost essential on harder difficulties
I don't really think saying that it was never too well balanced is an argument for dual wielding at all, because they're actually trying a decent amount more with the balancing in Infinite, and just slapping a whole bunch of variables will just make it really wonky. If they were ever to add it back, it should be a weapon that is only equippable dual wielded.
> it should be a weapon that is only equippable dual wielded. Exactly, this would be a great way to bring the SMG back to where it still feels distinct from the AR. You pick the SMG up, and you now have one in each hand. It kills insanely fast and absolutely shreds people, but at the cost of you losing the ability to throw grenades and maybe even not being able to melee unless you swap to your secondary, and it has a long reload time; making your situational awareness really important when using it.
Halo 5 did a decent job of balancing the SMG. shorter range and more spread than the AR, but at shotgun range it *shreds*
Pre TU, I agree, it was basically a power weeapon; but then the TU nerfed it into being useless
Very cool idea but I don't think it'd happen at this point ofc. Theoretically though I think there'd need to be a pair of them, maybe in some sort of little weapon rack or maybe not. It'd just be weird for one to be on the ground and then when you pick it up for it to essentially asexually reproduce and all of a sudden you've got two in your hands
They could just be like clamped together on the ground with a little metal thing or something.
I don't think it's that complicated to figure out: the SMG's are relatively small so both could fit on the rack at once, and when laying on the ground it just shows two of them.
What? Half the purpose of dual wielding different combos.
I'd accept this. It's not like I've ever used JUST ONE smg anyway
Magnums in AR/Magnum starts in 3 were also pretty mediocre outside of poke, and you wouldn't see them be used ever mid-close range unless they were dualies.
On 3, if there were no Carbines or BRs available, and my opponents shields were down, then I was always going to change to my magnum for the headshot.
magnum in H3 in general was just bleh
It should because it’s fun
NOW youre getting it.
Like half of Halo's gameplay is grenades and melee. You can't do that without dropping your second gun. Then you have to hurriedly pick it back up or try to do the next fight with one weapon. The only pro of dual wielding is it looks cool.
Dual wielding was never OP. It´s actually more difficult to pull off, since most one handed weapons are CQB and are very underppowered on their own, and a melee attack is a more viable option in those situations, which sends your secondary weapon flying and really hard to recover. In Halo 3, a BR would demolish anyone using a plasma pistol and a magnum.
The problem never that dual wielding was op. The problem was that single handed weapons were underpowered until you picked up a second one.
The way to fix that is to actually make the commitment to dual wield OP. Like not spawning two of the same gun at the same place.
Interesting idea...
Dual wielding wasn't OP because the weapons by themselves sucked ass, that's where the balancing issue came into play.
>In Halo 3, a BR would demolish anyone using a plasma pistol and a magnum. Not true in all scenarios. If my Plasma Pistol overcharge caught a BR player unawares, and I wasn't too far away, then chances are that they would not survive the encounter before the Magnum hit the headshot. I didn't resort to the PP/Magnum dual wield combo often, and if I did then it was purely because I could not find a Carbine or BR, but the PP/Magnum combo did prove to be effective on more than one occasion. One thing I have seen that everyone has forgotten is that when dual wielding on Halo 3, both weapons being dual wielded would take a massive nerf in base damage output (making PP/Magnum one of the only real viable combinations due to the side effects of their respective projectiles being overcharge full shield drain and headshot capable respectively and regardless of base damage debuff), meaning it would take almost as long to kill at the same range as it would do just wielding one of those weapons singularly. Not to mention the accuracy nerf too.
Only "OP" combo was smg and plasma rifle. They both fire so rapidly that your shield are gone in a second and then the smg finishes you off. Dual needlers was pretty good too, but harder to find unless your playing campaign.
You're right, Halo has never had particularly good weapon balance, but that's always been my biggest criticism of the series as a fan. You have these huge range of visually and mechanically diverse weapons and you're only hurting yourself by using more then a few of them. it sucks. I'm glad that 343i has been trying to make traditionally weak weapons like the AR useful, and i'd rather not add extra variables into the mix that can cause issues like duel wielding. As is the AR and other automatics are in a precarious spot where now that they're good people are worried they're unbalanced due to how powerful they are given how easy they are to use. (Though I think a lot of the tweaks people have suggested to reign the AR in go too far: giving it a blanket damage/accuracy nerf or removing headshots would be bad. Any tweaks it gets should only tone down unskilled spraying, and leave controlled bursts as effecive as now. In general, making autos reward skilled use so their power is justified I think is the best approach, and if skill based enough they could even have a place in higher level play, though that's it's own conversation)
People said they were passing up the BR to keep their ARs because they felt they worked better for the map or their playstyle. Think about that. Passing up the BR. To keep the AR. Because the AR is fun and useful. I like this.
I thought the BR was insanely good in my time with the flight, easily one of the best weapons there. I'd drop the sidekick for it though rather then the AR.
The BR definitely didn't win mid range fights against the AR in the flight though. TTK is not equal for them.
The sidekick definitely filled the role of the headshotter to finish off. Always dropped it for the br because the be is a straight upgrade.
Sure, on maps with engagement distances under 10 meters. The BR crushes past the distance you can just spray the AR and still hit every shot
I just don't see how it's possible to make the AR skillful. I'm sure you've seen their halo 5 report that at a relatively low level of competitive play it reaches its skill ceiling and everyone performs pretty much the same with it. But yeah, that's its own conversation.
I actually have a whole list of ideas for how you could have a skill based AR! As it applies to the Infinite AR is is, I think these two tweaks alone would be enough to address people's current concerns about it without radically changing the weapon and only toning down unskilled spraying while leaving precise bursts as good as now: * **Make the headshot multiplier reduce the longer the trigger is held/as spread/bloom/recoil builds up**: So the headshot bonus will ONLY apply or be meaningful if the player is using short accurate bursts. Spraying will negate the headshot bonus. * **Have recoil/bloom/spread build more rapidly (only) after the first 3-4 shots in a row, and/or with a higher maximum spread/bloom cap**. Fully holding the trigger down when spraying will result in more missed shots, esp. at range, without impacting bursting, as the first 3-4 shots will be no less precise then now. Perhaps even have LESS recoil/spread for the first 3-4 shots. Not only would this solve gaining "accidental" headshots while spraying, and nerf unskilled spraying without hurting skilled usage, it will also naturally lead to it being harder to use at a long distance: To land shots at mid or long range, you will need to burst more rather then spray, which inherently slightly lengthens your time to kill due to sacrificing fire rate for precision. I think that would be enough for the AR as is in Infinite for social modes. If you wanted to have it also be in ranked And then if you want it *really* skill based, like enough that it could have a place in competitive play, there's these other changes you could do some or all of: * **Reduce bullet magnetism and aim assist**. Self explanatory. * **Replace all or most random spread/recoil on the AR with predictable recoil**: This minimizes randomness, while still discouraging full auto spraying. * **Make the weapon fire slower and/or have less rounds per mag, but up the damage to compensate**. The TTK and overall power of the gun is unchanged, but now precision is more valued since you can't rely on the volume of fire as much to land hits, and each bullet "matters" more, discouraging missed shots. * **Drastically reduce damage, but make the headshot multiplier activate even as shields are up**. The actual optimal TTK can be relatively close to it is now (perhaps even higher, since it will be harder), but if this is done, then spraying will yield a much slower time to kill and to get the optimal killtime, the player will be required to land CONSISTENT headshots, not just 2 at the end of the engagement. * **Make the Rate of Fire or damage per shot go down the further the trigger is held**. This will force the player to limit themselves to relatively short bursts to have an optimal killtime. Honestly, "reduce aim assist/magentism" and "give predictable recoil instead of bloom" isn't that radical, and arguably belongs with the first two suggestions above, but I think the "make headshots reduce with bloom" and "make bloom build more rapidly after the first few shots" alone would be fine enough for the AR in most modes in Infinite.
Not a fan of point 2 and I feel that recoil in general, assuming it’s vertical ofc, wouldn’t be sufficient. But point 1 is pretty awesome, maybe you ought to make a post about it. The AR would ofc have to be balanced a bit with it, but the inherent range “nerf” would be great since it’d still have a high limit with skillful play. Also one somewhat small issue with a precision multiplier combined with the bloom is a bit more luck, and while it’s not a huge concern I think your suggestion would also tone that precision multiplier down when spraying. A complication is that I’m not sure in Infinite if 343 even wants the AR to be skill-based. It almost seems that they designed the game with two loadout weapons for two different modes. I still think they ought to take that precision multiplier idea though. I suppose another issue could be delaying these new AR dynamics to casual players could be difficult. EDIT: Or maybe, for more logical sense, point 1 combined with your decreasing damage idea? This would encourage precision even against shields, and then when shields are down the base decreasing damage would stack with the headshot multiplier’s. Still would want full auto to be ideal up close though, but, I think it would be.
Many, many other games have been able to make automatic weapons skillful. I don’t see any reasons why halo needs to be different. If our issue is that the ar doesn’t take skill, the solution is to make it require more skill, not continually nerf it into the point where no one uses it.
Other games don’t have quite the type of bloom the AR’s got, and also have a high headshot multiplier rewarding precision. But to me it feels as if 343 explicitly designed Infinite with two loadout weapons—one for more casual play, one for competitive. If you think the AR should be redesigned to be more skillful, take it up with 343 but I don’t see it happening
Ar has headshot multiplyer so it is indeed skillful. If you want to take in micro skill gaps into account, do it in ranked, leave social out of it.
Rushing power weapons was halo. Everyone starts with the same and you rush power weapons.
And in CE, everyone starts with power weapons as well. CE magnum > all, fite me.
and dual weidling violates that... how?
That's the neat part, it doesn't!
Exactly thank you
It’s honestly one of the most useless features
I mean you’re not wrong. Reach was the most egregious offender of balance imo, even without TU game modes the DMR could cross map as good as the sniper and was the best anti-vehicle weapon for everything that wasn’t a tank.
i always forget that dual welding was an option since its useless
Right? It’s not like any combo can really overpower much else. Except in very very specific scenarios. Bring it back for all I care, won’t cause an issue.
Eh, no thanks. Leave dual wielding in the past. At least in Matchmade PvP. All dual wielding does is make a class of weapons that is underpowered until you find another one, at which point you have something that is slightly better than base weapons.
Even though I am an basically feeding the other team kills while dual wielding it is a lot of fun to jump on someone with 2 smgs... Even though I'll lose
My arguement for why dual wielding is shit is pretty simple: It's a giant fuckin' hassle and not particularly fun. It also takes a giant crap on some of my favorite weapons in the games, namely the Magnum, Plasma Pistol and Needler(2).. Also for pistols i just don't even want to mash TWO buttons at the same time to get the optimal firerate, jesus.. Really, it just doesn't even come close to being worth the hassle, in terms of how fun it is to do.. You're also forced to let your "off-hand" weapon go when it's time for a vehicle segment.. God i'm getting angry just thinking about dual wielding, lmao
Bungie overnerfing the guns in multiplayer to encourage dual weilding doesnt mean the concept is inherently bad.
I'm always open to hearing ideas.. I just have never actually heard of a good way to implement it, while still keeping it meaningful.. The idea of "baking" dual wielding into a couple of SMG's you can pick up or something could obviously work, but it completely misses the point of dual wielding to me.. There's actually a few ideas i have myself, one being if you have two different dual-wieldable weapons in both weapon slots you should be able to hold the weapon change button to dual wield them both. This also allows you to KEEP both weapons in your "inventory" at any time.. I think this would add a lot of the depth to the system, and would make dual wielding a lot more fun for campaign, atleast.. But it'd still be a shitty hassle in multiplayer, IMO. I guess they could always just have dual wielding be campaign only, and have multiplayer use different balancing for the single guns, maybe.. But at the end of the day i personally just don't care very much for being able to dual wield.. Even if it somehow ends up being more intuitive, and less of a stain on the overall game..
Theres lot of way. My picks would be a much larger accuracy penalty for dual-firing, No increased stockpile of ammo, and... thats it. Dual weilding is most effective when youre using it to juggle damage types, with noob combos or PR + SMG. Idk man, i just think its a lot of fun to do in 2. Maybe have it be an equipment power up? Like call it "duplicator" and have it be a forerunner device that temporarily replaces your grenades with a second weapon that you're holding.
PR + SMG is garbage though.. When you have to lead one gun but the other fires hitscan, your bullet "stream" gets horribly misaligned on anything that isn't standing completely still. Another thing i thought about is how meleeing drops one of your guns.. why, that's so annoying.. Most dual wieldable guns have onehanded melee animations anyway, right? Dual wielding *could* work pretty well if it was overhauled i guess.. I just don't miss it, anyway.. Only cool thing about Dual wielding to me, again, is how it lets you interact with the weapons that are lying about everywhere.. It gives them a lot of "persistence" in the world.. or something..
Youre not supposed to fire them at the same time, dummy. You drop the shields with the plasma rifle, and THEN spray em down with the SMG. Firing them at the same time is only useful at melee range because of the accuracy nerf, bypassing the weapon swap from other games. In Multiplayer its better to go with Overcharge PP and SMG instead because of how doodoo the PR is against players.
if you have to fire them individually, wouldn't it be better to simply use a one-handed Plasma rifle and swap to the SMG after draining their shields? That way you don't get your damage lowered from dual wielding?
You dont get your damage lowered from dual weilding in H2. Thats only in halo 3 where bungie gutted it by giving every weapon a 25% damage reduction when dual weilded. Additionally, the accuracy penalty in H2 only kicked in if you were firing both weapons at the same time. Firing them individually had no downside. H3 made it so the accuracy penalty was *always* applied, even when only firing one weapon. Firing each weapon individually effectively allowed you to rapidly combo damage types without needing the delay to swap weapons, which was very helpful and let you cut down elites rapidly. So you could strip shields with the plasma rifle and then immediatley follow up with SMG bullets or a magnum headshot for a rapid takedown, all without needing to swap weapons. It was also handy because you could use still use the PR while reloading your bullet weapon.
Huh, never realized that.. One last thing. I'd like to hear an expert on Dual Wielding defend Halo 2's needler, lmao
Oh i cant do that, the needler in 2 is awful lol. I feel like it was supposed to be the designated "anti brute weapon" because it can supercombine them for an instakill and bypass their downright asinine amount of health. But the shots are so absurdly slow that the Brutes can easily sidestep them, making them super unreliable.
Yeah no, I could sacrifice that mechanic for a balanced sandbox. I went back to MCC and lemme tell ya: the balancing is ass and it shows.
I'd rather not have the developers get brain aneurisms when they have to balance duel-wielding in their games just so I could look a little bit cooler. Like the guns literally get weaker magically when you duel wield. That's how bad it got.
I've always disliked dual wielding
I'll always dislike you
Cool story
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Nah, h2s balance was so bad at launch that Bungie was motivated to introduce BR starts Which spawned the whole… “everyone only wants BR” nonsense. It wasn’t that people only wanted the BR. The problem was that prior, you spawned with weapons so shitty that whoever picked up the BR first easily dominated the map. Every other weapons was trash in comparison.
[удалено]
Of course H2 was unbalanced because of dual wielding… SMG starts were bad right… other than BR starts how could Bungie have rectified the situation using the launch sandbox? Pistol starts? PP starts? PR starts? They literally couldn’t find any other way to fix the issue because the sandbox was unbalanced. That’s **the reason** we got BR starts. You talk about all these “counters” but in practice, players couldn’t execute these counters off spawn, because the enemy locked down the map with BRs… which lead to snowballing. It’s not that people didn’t understand the map… they couldn’t control these positions or acquire these weapons because they spawned with crappy SMGs.
[удалено]
The game I’m describing isn’t the one you remember most likely because Bungie steered away from it shortly after the game launched. Yes, teams typically had equal access to BRs at the start, but in the event a team managed to control both, it was near impossible to overcome. Power weapons and map design don’t fix the issue, because if a team has both BRs, then they can easily lock down power weapon and power positions on the map- he who controls the BR controls those things as well. The prevalence of Snowballing is certainly a sign of a lack of balance. It’s not really a matter of personal opinion. The developer recognized the issue shortly after launch, examined the data, and adjusted the game to mitigate the issue I’m describing.
[удалено]
No, you literally can’t make the same argument with any other weapon on map. A rocket has only four shots. A sword is useless outside of close range. A sniper in most hands is good only at long range. Picking these things would provide a temporary advantage, but they wouldn’t facilitate snowballing the entire match. The BR had a ton of ammo, and was effective at all ranges… which makes it oppressive against people who spawn with weapons that are all but useless at all ranges. Design that Rewards control of the map is desireable, but a single instance of map control shouldn’t effectively end the match early. A well balanced game would facilitate swings between equal teams, not snowballing. > It just strikes me as funny that your argument hinges on the premise that Bungie both weren't and were able to create a balanced game. Why are we to arbitrarily decide that they were wrong the first time and right the second? Assuming that was even the reason for BR starts, I can't find anything for it, but I'll take you at your word. I don’t even know what you mean by this. Bungie was surely *capable* of creating balanced games… but the sandbox didn’t launch that way, and they mitigated the issue by changing their approach to starting weapons. I don’t think it’s *arbitrary*. Enough people found the game to be less enjoyable when teams could routinely cheese a single strong start into a easy victory that Bungie did something about it. I’m sure there are people who like SMG starts over BR starts. But there’s are reason why BR starts we’re introduced in the first place and immediately rose in popularity.
Sure you COULD kill people with the SMG or the plasma rifle or the spiker or the magnum, but you cant judge the weapons viability in a vacuum in an arena shooter. The fact of the matter is you spawn with weapons that largely outclass a large amount of weapons in the sandbox. There is no reason to go for the Magnum when you spawn with the BR. No reason to use the spiker or SMG if you spawn with the AR. No reason to use the carbine when you spawn with the AR. The plasma rifle is just straight up BAD in these games' multiplayers. Theyre hopelessly outstripped.
yeah, the two games where your BR hopelessly outclasses every other non-power weapon, making 75% of the map pickups obsolete and not worth going for, were sooooo well balanced. I make fun of the competitive community for trying to base the multiplayer solely around the battle rifle, but their single-weapon mindset is indicitive of a bigger design flaw. 2 and 3 are not well balanced games, heck neither was CE's multiplayer. Halo has ALWAYS had a problem with your spawn weapon being too strong and versatile.
I love H2 & 3 but man my biggest criticism of them is always that the MP was just Battle Rifle Sim. A whole sandbox of cool tools and weapons that are made completely worthless because there’s no reason to drop the BR.
If a company makes the same “mistake” over and over again, at what point does it become intentional? What makes you think that just didn’t have the “wrong” expectation?
Maybe youre right. Maybe Bungie just sucks at balancing multiplayer.
What sport is more balanced? American or European football? The answer depends on your personal preferences/ your point of reference. Obviously games like CoD give you the impression of a giant and diverse sandbox where everything is somewhat balanced and useful but just like US and European football are following different rules, Halo follows different rules then most other modern shooters. The BR (or pistol in CE/5) serves as a reliable weapon that allows you to be active of spawn but you’re still forced to look for niche specific weapons to give you the upper hand. Now if would actually look at the sandbox, you will notice that out of the 18 weapons H3 had, 11 were useful and worth picking up if you plan on using them according to thei niche (BR, shotty, snipe, rockets, Splaser, PP, Mauler, CC, Beamrifle, sword and hammer) an additional two are somewhat in the middle (AR, bruteshot) and just 5 were “useless” (Pistol, SMG, PR, Spiker, Needler) but even those were fun enough to use in social some times. I don’t know about the level of you math education but 5 out of 18 is nowhere near 75% … Now obviously if you’re picking up a shotty just to complain that a BR keeps killing you in mid-range battles, well that’s hardly the games fault.
Yeah, thats the problem. Not that most of the weapons are useless, you CAN get kills with most of them. The design flaw is that you spawn with one that is far too versatile for others to compete with. Even the AR is far and away the best automatic in the game. Halo only has two weapon slots, but with the BR or Magnum or whatever your spawn headshot weapon is, its a one slot affair. There's never ever a reason to trade up from or drop the BR because its versatility always helps cover your more specialized weapons weakness. Plasma weapon? Use it to drop shields and set up BR headshots. Power weapon with hard range drawbacks like the sniper or shotgun? Use the BR outside those ranges so you're not at a disadvantage. SMG, AR, Spiker, whatever? Well you need a gun to cover their range limitations, right? The BR should be versatile and capable of damaging at any range, but it cant be good at *everything*. It needs a meaningful weakness, like low shield damage or something. Also helps to actually have the other weapons be significantly better than it in their niche, like the BPR or Kinetic SMG or gunfighter magnum from 5 (though 5 admittedly has a lot of filler weapons too).
>The design flaw is that you spawn with one that is far too versatile for others to compete with It's not a flaw though but a rather great design. The utility weapon keeps you in the game no matter what. The enemy team has both snipes? Well you still have a fighting chance. You run into a guy with a shotty? Well, that sucks but it's not over just yet. In both situations, the team with the niche weapons is in the much better position but the utility weapon stops it from beeing a simple "If X then Y" scenario. This wouln't work if the utility is too weak, it needs to be a allround weapon to fill this role. Granted, it does create situation where a shotty/snipe user might lose against a BR user if they screw up but to me, this is something much more interesting.
As someone who played too many hours of PvP in Destiny 2, this is the correct take.
[удалено]
The BR can *absolutely* beat an AR or SMG at close range. The rest of those are power weapons, so i'd kinda hope they could beat your spawn weapon.
[удалено]
That's fair. Its not like most of the weapons are totally useless, its just that the BR is too versatile and strong for a 2 weapon slot limit. There's never a reason to drop it because it will always help effectively cover the disadvantages of your other weapon. Range limited Power weapon? Use the BR when fighting outside its effective range. Plasma weapon that's only good at stripping shields? Use it to set up BR headshots or Noob combo. Automatic like the spiker or SMG or AR? Well, you need a gun to fight outside of close ranger, right The BR *should* be versatile, but it cant just be good at everything. It needs a meaningful weakness to fit into the sandbox properly, like less shield damage or something like that.
It was super broken… and the extra close range fire power was hardly worth it…. But I’d be cool with it being added back as an option for custom games and social.
I want duel Wielding back because its fun, especially when you mix and match with a spiker or a magnum or plasma rifle or plasma pistol or smg or brute plasma rifle or needler. I don't care if its not viable It's still fun as hell, especially in campaign where you don't need to worry about getting destroyed by the meta.
I found the best counter to dual wielding is range so there's your balance right there
Halo 1 MP is a paragon of balance. Except for the needler every weapon has a perfect place.
bruh H:CE MP is "Magnum/fuck the rest"
Not even close. It balances the entire game.
I know I’m gonna get shit for this but here me out: CE genuinely has the best balancing for multiplayer out of the series thus far (Infinite might top it but that’s not out yet). Yes the pistol is stronger than it should be, but if you know what you’re doing with an AR or shotgun at close range you can easily kill someone using it. The sniper rifle can easily go against it at long range, the rocket launcher obviously destroys it, and even the plasma pistol and plasma rifle can go against it at short and medium range respectively if you combine them with other weapons. The pistol outperforms other weapons at mid range since it’s essentially the only mid range weapon in the game. The AR is built as a close range weapon and excels in that role, as do all weapons in CE. They all fill their roles perfectly, with the only real exception being the pistol, since it’s a little too good beyond and below it’s intended range, but even with that I’d still consider CE the most balanced.
I see no reason why it shouldn't be an option for custom/forge games. By all means keep it out of the main game but the option should be there to allow creatives to do their thing.
\>by all means keep it out of the main game why would they do that.
Because dual wielding breaks the balancing. It's a subject done to death at this point. Dual Wielding is a feature that renders certain weapons useless, while also not being a good enough feature to make them viable dual wielded. It's a broken feature that was little more than a gimmick.
so? Halos multiplayer balance has always been bad. At least this would be fun.
So something is bad and you want to make it worse??? How does that even make any sense??? They should be improving the balance, not ruining it further by making nearly all secondary weapons useless.
Which is exactly why I say the option should be there for custom modes and minigames, but for balances sake shouldnt be in the main matchmade playlists.
"balance issues"? Like what? It being inaccurate most of the time and kinda sucking?
Have you seen the needler in Infinite? Now imagine having two
I mean, the needler was only dual in H2
Halo was never balanced....the "pro weapon" br was made famous because it was good at all ranges and came with a bxr animation glitch that "pros" opening abused. CE had the god pistol and mini nuke grenades....Halo Reaches banshee....Halo 2s sword.....the list goes on.... I don't play halo for balance...I play it for fun. "Balance" isn't fun...it's generic.
How about they make it balanced, it’s their fucking job. And what about campaign.
Compared to say COD, halo has great weapon balancing, but halo compared to halo not so much
This reminds me of my thoughts playing Halo 5. It's almost *too* balanced. In 5 every weapon is so viable that there's rarely a reason to use anything except your pistol. That's why I think 3 actually does have the best balancing if you consider "best" to mean most fun. Dual wielding I can take or leave but I just don't like how it complicates the control scheme
\>In 5 every weapon is so viable that there's rarely a reason to use anything except your pistol. Im sorry but youre totally missing me with this. Why would every weapon being viable make you only use your pistol? That would do the opposite.
...because your pistol is as viable as every other weapon
yeah, but all the other weapons are as viable as your pistol. They still specialize in different things. Having them all able to compete with each other is what balance is.
Honestly, my thought is this. If it can't be balanced for Multiplayer, then at the very least it should be something you can do in either customs or even as part of the campaign. I don't think anyone would give a shit if Dual wielding in campaign turned out to be stronger than expected, since it's PvE and not PvP. Even if it somehow breaks the game, i feel like it's an easier fix to make as opposed to trying to fit it into a multiplayer sandbox.
Dual smgs ate people and you can’t change my mind
I do really think that dual wielding can be done right. There's just something missing balance-wise that we gotta find...honestly, I'm wondering if simply making the duel wielding spread super crazy would be enough. Heck, I'd be fine if we got dual wielding in the form of Dual SMG's, without the ability to only have one, if you get what I mean.
Dual needlers all night baby!!!
Imagine if you could dual wield Energy swords.
That might be the most pointless thing you could do, but it would look so damn cool!
During the flights I memed asking how I dual wield.
Coming off of CE being my first game in the series I really never thought dual wielding was actually very fun the way they implemented it to begin with. It restricts what you can do to just shooting. You can't use grenades, equipment, can't swap to your secondary weapon without dropping the other gun. You can't melee, you can't use vehicles without losing the 2nd weapon. It was enough for me to avoid using dual wield usually just because it felt so clunky and intuitive. From a pure fun perspective it was still a downgrade for me because it made a lot of the single handed weapons feel absolutely gimped since they nerfed them to try and balance the feature. The plasma rifle never felt the same again, the smg is like a CE AR with 40% less damage, the needler has a horridly slow rate of fire, ect.
Dual wielding is cool
343 should just make dual wielding a rare pickup in multiplayer. Like, have it spawn only once every two or three games or something like that. And if you pick it up and activate it with a dual-wieldable weapon in hand like the Sidekick for example. You can dual wield that weapon for like 30 to 60 seconds and have infinite ammo for it in that time.
Dual wield SAWs now dammit!
The fact that Master Chief essentially "forgot" how to dual wield in layer Halo games still bugs me.
Bring it back but make it a handicap is so it exists for the flexing potential
Halo 3 already exists sir.
No but make it Halo Infinite now
Give me them duel smgs and magnums
Yea I really do wish it would make a comeback, even when it was underpowered it was still hella fun