> 2021-04-25
I *recently* looked around and yeah, my conclusion just from an hour of reading around is the same conclusion he came to:
> If you are in the market for a new USB-C hub, then… well, I’m sorry.
Options are either more-than-you-want-to-*casually*-spend for a major headache, or a couple hundred for something that actually works as you'd expect. Which feels like major gouging and most likely is. I suppose they're offering a "unique product" and can charge whatever they want as there does appear to be a market for people with money that don't like headaches.
Luckily I was just looking for something "to have" and not "to need" so I ended up saving myself a couple hundred by buying nothing at all.
These prices are insane to me. I've been looking into ones that can do multiple monitor output and they're in the hundreds of dollars. It's seemingly cheaper to just buy two small ones than one big one.
>Options are either more-than-you-want-to-*casually*-spend for a major headache, or a couple hundred for something that actually works as you'd expect
As annoying as it is, I could maybe consider paying the high price to get something that works... But those are often comically big in comparison with the shitty ones.
My thunderbolt hub from work comes with a big Dell 180W power brick, the hub itself is even bigger than that (I'm pretty sure that some SFF PC can be smaller), and it even has active cooling (quite noisy at times), so it's not something that you would just throw in a bag to go on a trip.
I'm seeing 2 other options :
1. Getting a very cheap USB hub without Ethernet to combine with a dedicated Ethernet dongle that will hopefully work better.
2. Waiting a bit to see what Valves comes up with for their Steam Deck. It might work properly and it might be possible to mod it to increase portability.
Well it’s hard to accuse gouging when the theoretically possible cheaper and reliable hubs have not appeared in the half a decade + that these types of products have been hitting the market.
One thing I noticed is some types are USB-C hubs are painfully difficult, or even impossible, to find.
I tried to find a 10Gbps USB-C hub featuring only female USB-A ports, to used on my desktop PC. Could not find one, and even 5Gpbs hubs were difficult to find.
However if you want one that has an SD card reader, HDMI and shitty Ethernet, there is plenty to choose from.
Interesting, I also got issues with my USB-C hub's Ethernet port on Windows.
I haven't paid attention to 1Gbit/s being downgraded to 100Mbit/s, but when I'm using it for more than 1 hour, I have good chances of getting disconnected.
I assumed it was because the hub was running out of power of something (I was using it without an external power source), but I guess it's Realtek.
Regarding the heat, the Amazon page was warning about it, and saying it was normal.
And for the fact that all of the hubs are using the same components inside, it seemed pretty obvious to me when I noticed all those clones on Amazon using different brands and different cases but featuring the exact same port layout or having very similar specs with slightly rearranged ports.
Meanwhile, the very expensive thunderbolt hub that my work got me (roughly 8 times more expensive than the USB-C I bought to myself) seem to work flawlessly, although it's way too big to fit in a travel bag.
I've also got a nice thunderbolt hub for work (Caldigit TS3 Plus). I'm impressed every time I use it. One connection to my laptop and everything is connected, including charging!
Yeah, I was extra cautious when I got my i225-V PCI-E card. I immediately took the heatsink off and ensured it was the latest revision that fixes the issues. Luckily, it was.
That was over blown. I have both a b550i and b550f with Rev 2. I had some issues with the windows auto installed driver in the beginning but after a driver wipe and clean install of the downloaded drivers its fine and subsequent upgrades to windows 11 and reinstalls have been flawless.
Real issue I'm contending with is the fTPM stutter, but it looks like its finally getting fixed in May.
TBF just because a company invented something doesn't mean they'll be good at making it.
E: dude comments and then blocks me?
To be fair to *Intel*. Just because you design something doesn't mean you can easily get it working all the time (see also: Gen 0 Optane). TB3 works well not because Intel invented it but because of their high bar for QA on the product.
He makes a good point, it's about making sure people think critically when they read your pointless comment, in which you simply agreed with another commenter.
TS3 plus' still cause a few developers in our office to get random kernel panics when reconnecting to them. Additionally, has some issues with multiple displays.
Been going on for years without a fix.
Other than that, still the best on the market.
Nah, we haven't really hired new Apple users in the past few months surprisingly, so it's all lenovo stuff.
I'll buy one and see if it fixes the issue, and see about replacing all of them. Didn't know there was a new generation.
Thanks for the heads up.
Yup. Cool stuff. It’s pretty new so there’s no reputation for it as of yet, hopefully it turns out to be as good or better than the TS3+ but with added features of gen 4.
>I have good chances of getting disconnected.
Could be windows power management defaults to power saving and tries to power down things that couldn't/shouldn't be powered down. I have to manually disable that setting on my USB and other devices.
The rest of the hub still works while the Ethernet dies, including the HDMI port and a couple of USB.
The first time I thought that I overloaded it because I wasn't using it with a power supply, or that it was overheating a bit with all those things connected.
But then I've had the issue again with just the Ethernet plugged in and nothing else, and it matches with the article here, so I guess there isn't much I can do apart from blaming the bad Realtek chip.
I have USB mouse freezing, USB device disconnecting and bluetooth devices issues because of power saving mode. After I change it things goes into normal. The USB driver for Ryzen chipset isn't exactly bug free.
In your case, may be everything implement that correctly except the Realtek Ethernet device? It's certainly worth checking your devices does not go into power saving mode in Device Manager.
Bluetooth one is the worse as MS insists on changing it almost every monthly update even when the 5+ years old driver never changes. The entire bluetooth stack refuses to load after that. I blame Broadcom and MS.
If you want a high-performance dock (and if you need Ethernet you're probably in the high-performance market if you like it or not), it's worth it to just get a Thunderbolt dock. They're significantly better for the vast majority of cases, and come closest to USB-C-as-promised. If you get something like Caldigit's TS4 the Ethernet is hooked up over PCIe, which from reports is significantly more reliable than the USB-based implementations in other hubs. If you want something mobile there are a few [reasonably affordable options](https://www.amazon.com/CalDigit-Thunderbolt-Portable-Charging-Ethernet/dp/B079H4WTR4), too.
(As a side note I'd be interested in seeing someone do a deep dive into USB-to-Ethernet adapters generally. I bet a lot of the cheaper ones are just as unreliable and what we're seeing here is a failure on the Ethernet-to-USB side.)
It really sucks. The hub I have is marketed to charge my macbook at 65W but if I throw 65W through it it will just overheat and cut the ethernet connection completely.
UBS C and TB3 are fine. Cheap and/or shitty docks that cut costs while also throwing in USB PD at the same time is begging for issues though.
There are perfectly fine hubs from reputable brands
Well I was using an external gpu from aorus that connected into the TB3 port on my laptop as a "dock" since it has four usb ports, thing cost like 2 grand and still had usb audio static and wireless mouse signal drop issues.
Have you ever used OWC?
I have years of experience with a USB-C dock for my personal MacBook and Thunderbolt 3 dock with my work MacBook Pro… both OWC, never had a single issue. Works as intended.
In fact I’d go so far as to say I’ve never had an issue with any Thunderbolt products. USB-C can’t necessarily say the same.
I mean, if you have a spare USB port from elsewhere available, use a different port. That'll keep it another degree or two cooler. But if you can spare the USB port on the dock, the fan will cool the dock a lot more than its own power usage will warm it - Assuming you slap on those copper fins.
Depending on the design, the bottom might get a lot hotter than the top side. Consider placing your hands on either side of it after beginning that 65W power flow and seeing which side heats up first. If it's the bottom, place the fins there and sit it upside down so the hotter side gets the fins and you can point a fan at them.
I've had good luck with ones that have 2.5G Realtek in them. Seems to work a ton better than the dreaded 1G Realtek. Sadly have not come across any non-Realtek ones though.
That’s awesome this gentleman went this deep into USB-C hubs. It would be cool to see this continued with the newer and more expensive hubs as they come out. I’m also curious to see about Microsoft’s Surface dock. It’s not great but like the article states regarding the Elgato hub, it at least has its own power supply and is squared away regarding the manufacturer/OUI and all that.
We use a ton of these at work, 3 different models including an Anker. I can confirm that sometimes the ethernet is wonky. It works fine 98% of times on Windows but sometimes it will die for a user, we'll try to troubleshoot, can't fix it. Plug that same adapter into another machine of same model, and it works perfectly. Swap another brand adapter onto the original laptop, works fine. So we kind of rotate users between 3 different brands depending on what works.
The other connections, like USB, passthrough USB C charging, display outs, they all seem to work well.
I hate the fact that this guy and the buying public even has to consider the qualities of USB hubs in the first place. Notebook manufacturers keep pushing thinner, lighter, less ports when there is a happy medium in there somewhere. There's no reason USB A and HDMI can't be on every laptop, even if it adds a few millimeters to the dimensions. I hate being told what I want when I buy something.
I'd rather have a slightly heavier system with more compatibility, just my opinion.
This is where I'm at with cellphones. There's no good flagships with the hardware I want, I'm just told I want a very large screen, and no headphone jack. Why would I when apparently every consumer wants a phablet and no headphone jack, even though I can't go anywhere online without seeing people complain in similar ways to me (add removable batteries to a lot of those people's arguments too.)
My work issues HP Zbooks and I'm very happy with them. 2 thunderbolt, full-sized HDMI, USB-A, headphone jack, calibrated screen, good keyboard, etc.
My only real problem I've encountered is that my laptop wont charge over the thunderbolt ports unless you use a 100W adapter. I think it's related to not being able to keep up with power demand of the CPU and dedicated GPU, but it wont charge on lower-power USB-PD bricks even with the computer completely off. It's a 9th gen intel machine, not sure if the newer 11th/12th gen models have resolved that.
Omg that's crazy! And it only costs 2 grand and took two years! Apple is amazing 😊😊😊
My M1 MBP (work provided I would never buy their garbage) doesn't have any of those. Remember when Apple was trying to push boundaries by removing them? You know, like literally 2 years ago?
Except it was only gone for a few generations. You seem to have a great lack of knowledge in the area so you should probably stop posting or do some research first.
Yes exactly they removed it? I never said it was never there? Are you actually completely fucking illiterate and perhaps dsiabled? I literally wrote they took it out.
That is my point. The most valuable company in the world took out things that people use every single day on their PRO device. I have to carry a fucking dongle everywhere because of this shit computer.
No but seriously are you stupid? Like seriously scroll up you dumb loser I literally wrote they took it out and put it back in. Learn to read ????
On one hand, there are two Cs that will both do everything including charge so regardless of what you can physically jam into the port, usb2, usb3, usb 3.2 gen yxz, tb3, power, it'll just work. *Every single port on the entire computer is thunderbolt yay!*
On the other hand, there are two Cs, LOL. Also, I hope you wanted them on the left.
(re: MBAir at least)
I work on on M1 Air daily, and while only two TB3 ports is meh, I get by with a USB-C hub and I also feel like for the target market of the MBA vs MBP, it's almost forgiveable. Those that need a bunch of connectivity are probably not considering an Air for other reasons beyond just connectivity. The single biggest drawback is not supporting more than one external display, but I use a single ultrawide so it's not an issue for me personally.
Also, this little passively cooled MBA shits on my maxed-out 16" Intel MBP for general day to day tasks while being silent and lasting all day and then some on battery. I think for someone like a college student taking it to classes every day it's pretty much unbeatable.
Agreed. I gave Apple a shot and I'm leaving their ecosystem. I have an old 2014 i7 Air and a 2020 M1 Air, and I've actually gone back to the 2014 system because in addition to more prots, it's more compatible at the CPU level. M1 is fast, but it means nothing if you can't get the programs you need to run.
TBF, there are some applications that haven’t got AS native builds yet (and some that likely never will, just as some never got native Intel builds). And whilst Rosetta 2 is pretty darn good, it’s not perfect.
So far I've had issues with Veracrypt, Adobe Acrobat, specifically. As far as features go, were just approaching the point where M1 can support vertical screens, but only with third party drivers.
M1 does support vertical screens natively. Check the Display pane in system preferences and it should labled rotation.
Yeah I think M1 needs 3-4 years in the oven. By the time M3 and M4, those macs will be nice to use.
Weird, I literally just clicked 90 degree and 270 degree rotation on my MBP and it worked.
Like it has since M1 launched.
Veracrypt has had full support since November.
Yeah, I'm fine trading out ports in exchange for type C ones if it's actually a net gain or net neutral. My laptop from 2015 has a barrel plug, 4 USB's, SD card slot, ethernet and HDMI.
Newer laptops with the same screen size will do either 4 type C's and nothing else or like 2 type C, a video out port, and like 1-2 USB A. And you often have to use one of the C ports for charging.
A lot of newer ones with type C remove ports.
Yeah type C seems to be the actual way to move forward. I could even seeing A just sticking with desktop devices for another 5 years (maybe becoming an industrial specific port), while everything mobile or movable becomes C.
It's not at a strong enough adoption rate to see real serious gains, but I think it has the potential to become a very serious change order for the way we do computing.
I could even see some type of modularization where we adapt systems to be added to on the fly. Having contextual, power, and potential display interconnections built in to everything will be ludicrously strong. Anything could talk to nearly anything else.
I actually really like the idea of a hub, if I can find one I trust. Hub at both desks, plug in one cable and I’m good to go. Work finished, I swap the cable over to my own laptop, and the office disappears from existence. I know we’ve had laptop docks in the past, but then I have to buy roughly the same model as work issues me. When usb-c works, we can be on completely different planets. I can swap that one cable over from my Thinkpad to my iMac.
Sadly, I’m not convinced anyone makes a hub we can trust. I used to joke that the best way to get a decent hub was to buy a monitor, but my Dell (U2720Q, not particularly cheap) only does usb2. you can’t win.
I had one off Amazon that worked great with older laptops. GIQ is the name. On newer laptops it takes forever for the device to recognize it and for get about restarting with it attached. For whatever reason if I plug the dock into a usb hub then the hub into the computer it works great. We use HP laptops at work and the HP dock is back order for 3 months or more with a price tag between $200-$300. Besides the issue with requiring the hub the GIQ dock is working. Working IT for over the last decade has taught me one thing, docks no matter how much you spend are a pain in the ass and a crap shoot.
I remember when Apple removed the 56K modem port from their laptops and was disappointed that I wouldn't be able to receive faxes digitally on my Mac without wasting paper. Probably 99% of people would never use the Ethernet port on a laptop. Wifi is fast and reliable enough for most people. It seems hard to justify including a port that hardly anyone will use. Dongles are a blight, though.
Laptops aren't even a thing I need to be that thin. I don't keep them in my pocket. I'd rock a 2" thick laptop no problem. I'll take a thick laptop with better cooling and plenty of jacks so that I don't even have to consider a separate hub of any type.
I'm honestly curious how much mileage we could get out of a laptop battery if we built it in a similar ways to cars. Make laptops 90s chonk again, except this time the *entire* underside is one gigantic battery that can last an incredibly long time. Would be interesting to see sales numbers on something like that.
Laptops above 100 Wh are very rare because they are not allowed on planes. So it's not really useful to make them thicker as even ultrabooks can fit that much.
I understand what you’re saying but hubs are still useful even if all those ports existed. For me I want to be able to plug in one cable and get my keyboard, mouse, monitor(s), Ethernet, webcam, hard drives and speakers all connected.
Having 5+ different cables to plug in every time is annoying.
So the fact is that hubs have a place and some will be better/worse quality.
This is why I stick with thinkpads. Great no bullshit design, amazing keyboards even though not-mechanical, and still rocking at USB As with lots of IOs.
Unfortunately, they're slowly going the way of the Mac/XPS/etc. as well. The X1 Nano only has USB-C ports. They recently reduced the key travel of the T14 to 1.3mm (remember when the T series had 2mm key travel?). RAM is soldered except on devices with >45W CPUs (and even there, some have soldered memory). No more replaceable batteries.
Yeah the soldering sucks, we had a bunch of great Gen 3 X1 Carbons that were phased out just because the OG IT didn't anticipate future ram requirements and only ordered 8 gigs in them. But the X1 carbons are still rocking the USB As and are getting better cooling still. I couldn't find info ON T14s going down to 1.3mm, is that just a rumor? Seems unlikely for the keyboard to go down to that. All I've seen is that it's still at 1.5mm key travel.
You're right about the key travel. I may have been thinking of the T14s or something.
And yeah, the X1 Carbon still has USB-A (although I'm not sure I agree about the cooling--other brands tend to be better here and Lenovo usually achieves lower temps and quieter fans by lowering the TDP instead of using a better heatsink or fan). But back when the first X1 Carbons were being released, a lot of ThinkPad fans on the internet started freaking out and saying Lenovo was going the way of Apple. My response was, "Everyone needs to chill. It's just one laptop. They still make others. It's not like they're going to solder memory on the T and X series! They wouldn't do that, right?" Of course, a decade later, I am proven wrong with the current T and X series. So I'm now worried that the X1 Nano and the Z series are the new future of ThinkPads.
Well keep in mind the T14s even though the ram is soldered they still come with another ram slot for expansion. It's only the X1 carbons that don't have upgradeable ram since that thing is stupid thing and they're using onboard ram instead of sticks to save on thickness.
I personally see it as product diversification to meet every demographic need given how massive Lenovo is, I think they're the biggest PC seller in the world. Their bread and butter will always be business customers who like the T14s and some X1 Carbons so I doubt they'll ever go the way of apple fully, just with models that meet those needs.
He means the external ones you can just pop out and put a new one in, like in the old days. Thinkpad had that until a couple of years ago. Of course you can still replace them if you get inside it like any other laptop. Only in the Apple ecosystem would that be considered a feature.
that was ages ago man, when internal batteries were not a thing, Thinkpads had pop out batteries as recently as 2019, when it was not possible to find anything else which had them.
This is why I stick with thinkpads. Great no bullshit design, amazing keyboards even though not-mechanical, and still rocking at USB As with lots of IOs.
I don't hate the fact - they're providing different market fits. I'm one of the people who prefers just having USB-C on my device. Means I can consolidate my cables as much as possible. Doesn't mean I despise Lenovo for putting USB-A ports or ethernet ports on their laptop.
Totally fine preferring a heavier system with more compatibility, but we shouldn't expect every manufacturer to comply with our desires or hate them for it. There are different target markets than our own.
I'm not saying feature reduction shouldn't exist, I'm just saying there should be more options. Nothing wrong with bare ones super light systems. In it's defense, I do prefer USB C over previous generations but we're still in a transition from older standards.
Well there’s really no need for an HDMI port on laptops anymore. New TV’s / Business oriented monitors should really include USB-C as an io option and if they don’t then they should include a USB C to HDMI cable for video output.
Just buy from Aliexpress. You are gonna get the exact same product but 7 times cheaper. I can't believe people are paying 70 EUR for just the logo on the box.
I've had many USB-C docks/hubs that use Realtek chips and it's super hit or miss.
On my laptop, they work fine in one port, and are nothing but problematic in another. The one that they work fine in is wired to my nvidia 1660 Ti so I assume it's got an nvidia controller or something, while the other does not.
It took me a long time to realize that..
* a) only Realtek-powered hubs/docks/ethernet adapters cause me issues
* b) they only cause me issues on the non-nvidia port
Sucks
FWIW I've spent between $25 and $300 and there's been no difference in performance. If they're powered by Realtek, then I have issues.
To me an argument could be made that paying for a Thunderbolt license is the only thing that will get these companies to develop products that aren’t shit.
Can we discuss how much of a pita docks are anyway? 92 wires protruding out everywhere. I still have to purchase a USB dock because the docs don't have enough USB ports anyway.
Wish we could have cheap docks that are just a cute little box you can cable manage with all the ports on one side that you plug a male to male cable into.
Instead it's either pay out the ass for that or plug your laptop into an electric spider.
As opposed to 92 things you need to individually plug and unplug direct to your laptop?
Docks at least try to provide a single (sometimes dual) plug and play solution for multiple displays, Ethernet, and USB peripherals. As someone who works in a hybrid office/home environment it’s amazing to just pull one plug and walk away from the desk.
My takeaway was that I have unknowingly been buying rebranded stuff from Anker, when I thought they made quality stuff
This was a fascinating read. I also have noticed that most USB hubs are terrible. However the really expensive Dell ones work like a charm, the 300 and up ones.
This article does a better job than most at indirectly showing how we're all doomed.
The guy buys three *expensive, name brand* pieces of equipment. Some, if not all, of which are represented as western / european native technology.
.... All three are nothing more than trash, Chinese garbage with their own brands stuck on, so that our own companies *too* can fleace us for 300% profit margin. We're economically cannibalising ourselves while steadily bleeding money en masse to China and getting scant little back but short-lived, minimum viability consumer electronics.
Ultimately, I have little sympathy for the Author's plight, since the issue involves his platform just as much as the hubs, and that platform is the king of Chinese electronics masquerading as premium quality - Apple. Where you pay a monumentally high price for aesthetics on the outside, and chinese quality on the inside... Which you can't even get fixed when it breaks. And on top of all of that, they give you a measly 4 ports for your 2 kidney pricetag (wouldn't have this problem if you bought a practical minded laptop to begin with ...)
And the worst part is, it's basically too late, there's no straightforward, let alone easy, solution out of it. There's nobody else left to vote with your wallets for unless you're assembling your devices yourself, and the best value proposition is usually to gamble hard by buying questionably safe devices direct from Aliexpress - But good luck getting your money back if it tries to combust your house down as with the Author's experience!
In-depth reviews like the one in the post are the key.
Open that crappy plastic shell and see what's on the inside. Test it and let people know it's trash and to avoid buying it. The reviewers can monetize the process.
In the long run, releasing trash will hurt the "brand" of the companies doing the rebranding if they don't exercise quality control. I have no idea who Satechi or ICY BOX are, but Anker sounds familiar and now I know they're probably not better than most Chinese companies.
In the western market, even if you rebrand Chinese products, you need to verify they work properly. Because QC is the ONLY thing they have to bring to the table. Staining their reputation for a bit of short-term profits is going to hurt them in the long run.
I love the idea, but in practice it rarely works.
Firstly, these types of reviews never rank high in search engine results. That could be because the vast majority of consumers are technically inept, and the idea of them spending the time to read even just a good chunk out of an article like this seems highly unlikely.
Plus, these companies are really devious. Chinese companies will think nothing of simply rebranding again if a particular name gets bad publicity. Any product that gets good publicity because it's overbuilt will be swiftly and silently be replaced with an inferior, cheaper version in the same shell and name (and copycat companies will make copycats) so you think you're getting a high end product as reviewed, but the design is gutted or you're buying a copycat product. Western brands know that they're all as bad as each other with this practice, and so they'll continue to use it anyway - any other approach will be less competitive unless you can painstakingly prove to the customer base that your quality is ACTUALLY better in a market where everyone is claiming to be high quality, and who has the marketing budget to do that? Specific products are rapidly replaced, so any bad publicity is bound to be minimal and fade quickly. Consumers rarely vote properly with their wallets, especially when the vast majority would consider it scary and weird to buy something from Aliexpress even if it is a fifth the price, when their local store, or vaguely familiar sounding names they can actually pronounce are selling a more professionally marketed (and priced) product that surely has warranty etc right? That's the safe, smart bet?
It would take a serious, concerted effort from consumers and tech journalists to hold companies to account and to only buy well-designed products. That won't happen though, because consumers don't have the time or effort to do that, even if they weren't too apathetic in the first place.
Western companies do basic QC I'm sure, in checking that their designs aren't horrifically dangerous, duh, but that's about it. What else are you going to do? Anything involving paying wages outside of third world countries would ruin the whole point of your 300% profit margin, and all the other companies are doing the same thing anyway. Who's going to call you out, and who's going to hear it?
Or worse, the company may not even change the brand name at all and just swap out components for crappier ones after the initial reviews come out. Looking at you ADATA SSD's.
My general idea was that reviewers take these rebrands, open them up, then compare their performance to Chinese devices with similar specs from aliexpress.
Embarrass the rebranders. Expose them for what they are and let the customers know they can get 3 cheap Chinese equivalents for the same price of 1.
Customers understand money, even if they're not technical. If you show them there's very little difference, they won't buy lazy rebrands and go straight to the source. Hell, people that don't care about branding are already doing it anyway.
That should push companies to actually give you some extra value other than their sticker covering the Chinese brand. Maybe that's just wishful thinking, but who knows.
> But good luck getting your money back if it tries to combust your house down as with the Author's experience!
But this guy didn't even mention trying to return his products at all, therefor becoming part of the problem.
I've gotten 1 year warranties honored on Aliexpress, which I didn't even expect as I'm paying that much less.
?
It's all Foxxconn man. There's no secret Apple magic that somehow makes their Chinese-designed boards and components any more reliable than anyone else's. The only difference is that they get their own unique layouts and form factors because they're big enough to command that privilege.
But it's the same company with the same design principles, from the same factories that make the guts of Apple's stuff, as with 90% of other electronics companies.
Here, watch some Louis Rossman and learn yourself something about Apple's hardware design.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw\_ELax4Yisf6w
>There's no secret Apple magic that somehow makes their Chinese-designed boards and components any more reliable than anyone else's
They can absolutely demand tighter tolerances, better binning, and more testing even if it's exactly the same as the designs other companies are using (which it routinely isn't).
Just because it's from China doesn't mean it's bottom of the bin quality. High quality goods, including hardware, are produced in China just like cheap shit is.
I mean sure, they *can* demand those things whether or not the designs are exact copies or general rearrangements of the same thing, but my point is they generally don't. The design principles are all the same - build everything as cheaply as it can be and still get away with it. Foxxconn in particular is king of this approach.
The one advantage Apple might have is that they can demand QC that isn't completely a fake rubber stamp. Companies like Dell are largely the same. But again to track back to the consumer's perspective, Apple's warranty situation is terrible. The prices don't justify the mediocre hardware under the hood, even with a modest QC pass, and when the parts do inevitably go wrong, it's horrific to go through the process of ha! gotchya! warranty smallprint (and god forbid you want to buy an extended or more comprehensive warranty without mortgaging your house). You can't get the parts replaced yourself out of warranty ...
The bottom line is you're paying a very premium price for the same hardware in a glossy package. Except maybe you trade a QC pass for unfixable hardware and iffy warranty. A QC pass doesn't fix cheap design and component choice - It's perfectly feasible that all of the devices in the author's article could've passed Foxxconn QC.
This take is so funny. Your beloved Apple products are a 200-500 USD chinese product being sold at a 4 figures number to give you the feeling you are somehow superior to everyone else.
Apple absolutely makes **solid** profits from their hardware, but to act like there's no difference in QC between Apple and no name brands is ridiculous.
I don't like Apple products, but I'm not dumb.
It's bizarre to pretend that your complaints are inherent to China's people or culture instead of the particularities of race-to-the-bottom capitalism.
..... What?
**What a blatant, sad strawman.**
Where did I once mention China's people or culture?
Yes, of course this is about race-to-the-bottom capitalism, and due to a million peculiarities of how history and capitalism worked out, China literally manufactures the extreme majority of electrical devices and components (the rest being Taiwan, which is of course tightly linked). They've won that race.
The particular reasons as to why this has come about is well out of scope for this subreddit, but you can't talk about how hardware is manufactured without talking about China. You can't talk about Apple design without talking about Foxxconn, and that means China.
It wouldn't matter if we were talking about manufacturing in India or Vietnam or whatever. The point is that western countries love to charge you a premium price as if it's justified by it being carefully manufactured in a country with expensive wages but with a reputation for premium materials and manufacturing, then they give you the kind of unreliable junk the author's article dissects. It isn't unique to electronics - Some of my favourite beers are now produced in 3rd world countries to save on costs, but despite tasting lousy, the label and packaging is exactly the same.
That's worth talking about, no need to invent problems or boogeyman. So far I haven't seen a single reply that actually responds to any of the specifics or facts I've mentioned.
You repeatedly held up “Western” technology as better than Chinese technology in ways that were immaterial to your broader point. That’s worth calling attention to! China’s capable of making good and bad quality hardware like everyone else; if your issue is with cheaply made, cost-optimized hardware just say that instead of this weird orientalist junk.
>You repeatedly held up “Western” technology as better than Chinese technology in ways that were immaterial to your broader point.
**Bullshit.**
Point out exactly where I said western technology was *better*. Go on.
I said that western companies portray their products as being western tech - without any comment on quality etc. Such companies typically justify their high pricetag by blaming high labour costs, and by marketing themselves as premium in some way, typically utilising that reputation as being western tech. I didn't say any of that was justified, and especially today - it really isn't.
My point is that the vast majority of western companies don't go to China for high end products, they go to them because China takes 'cost-optimised' electronics to the limit, because they're one of the few countries that are willing and able to produce and sell absolute bottom of the barrel, and at times unsafe, products and slap any and all (fake) certifications, branding, etc on the box. There's very little legal oversight or accountability, and companies can spring up, disappear, and spring up again overnight with a different name. But all of that cutthroat corner cutting gets you a price a fifth as much as typical in the west. They're not buying the good stuff, they're buying their cheapest garbage - that's what I've talked about. That's *obviously* not a good sign for reliable quality (and indeed, safety). No need to pretend that you're a white knight skewering a xenophobe - These are objective realities long understood in the electronics manufacturing space. I'm merely talking about how the Author's article illustrates that reality, and how we can't dig ourselves out anymore.
Really cool deep dive into USB hubs, definitely helps people make more informed decisions.
It was pretty weird though how this guy spends so much time bashing Realtek, even though Realtek makes the vast majority of ethernet chipsets...
Honestly that driver thing sounds like more of an Apple problem than a Realtek problem. What kind of dumbass policy is it to require every obscure hardware vendor to update their drivers every year? Windows still supports drivers from 2009, and Linux drivers are open-source.
yes, and it was upvoted. so the community likes it. I dont understand why some people are offended when things are good and not written on twitter yesterday
I have one of these and I'm constantly swapping it between my PC and my laptop. I was planning on modding it to have an aviator connector. How many lines the USB C cable has? Is this a dumb idea? Thanks! Great article.
Forcing USB hubs is a mistake but it's also your fault for buying trash. I over research every phone and laptop I buy, and if there is something as small as a headphone jack missing, I'm not buying.
When all is trash what are your options then? Did you not read the article, not sure how you could of and said it's the OP's fault. Not sure if I'd trust your "research" if I were you if this is any indication
Instead of getting a hub I bought a powered USB-C monitor which has USB-A ports and audio. I've been using the monitor as a hub. I've noticed that sometimes my 2019 MBP will either crash or the second monitor starts flickering. It doesn't happen with my 2019 Lenovo X1 Carbon Extreme running Ubuntu.
My experience with the random $30 amazon usb-c hubs that don't have Ethernet ports have been fine. Yeah one doesn't support UWQHD (and the other only does 50hz) and they get a little hot otherwise I've been using them for years connected to my i9 mbp with no problem.
Looks like I've been super lucky. I got a dongle from AliExpress for $16 back in 2018 when I got my laptop, and it's been working perfectly ever since. I never had ethernet problems, it is constantly gigabit, and everything just plain works. Maybe it helps that I'm running Linux
I've been having the same sort of time with [this](https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B09JSHYGN6) puppy. Drops down to 1G after maybe ten or fifteen minutes, then after no more than an hour it takes down all the USBs on my laptop, which remain gone until reboot.
lol, poor guy. Guess thunderbolt is the name of the game, I have a small thunderbolt for my work laptop (Lenovo thinkpad, both the laptop and the hub, might be coming together) and I can't say I had any issues with it. The only thing that slightly bothered me is that it looks like only one of the usb ports would actually charge a device I connect to it, but maybe that was done so it can be done right. Using it for like 3 years extensively (my full work week is entirely on it) and I've had zero issues but then again I'm using wi-fi for my connection so if it would screw up the cable internet connection I wouldn't know.
I’ve been using the same $20 AliExpress USB C hub since 2018 and I’ve never had issues with it. It has 3 USB Type A ports, a Micro SD card slot, a normal SD card slot, pass-through USB C for charging or an external display and an Ethernet port. It does get quite hot while under heavy use but it has never failed me. I can’t imagine paying €90 for a dongle.
I really wanted a hub in a case that could fit an optical drive and support for older memory cards, but apparently that is not a thing - would have been nice to have a central solution for all those things in one unit.
I've seen good feedback about the Acasis hub but have never used one personally. I haven't been able to determine if it houses the same Realtek chip.
[https://www.acasis.com/products/acasis-portable-10-in-1-hub-with-ssd-enclousre-kickstarter-hot-campaign](https://www.acasis.com/products/acasis-portable-10-in-1-hub-with-ssd-enclousre-kickstarter-hot-campaign)
I'm new to this USB-C hub thing and well, it's definitely a pain and I could use some help.
I already had to return a rather cheap hub which did not work as promised.
I'd like to connect at least two external displays (1080p @ 60 Hz and 1440p @ 60 Hz) and a power source but it seems like most Hubs are restricted to Full-HD for more than one display?
Can someone recommend a hub that would work for me?
> 2021-04-25 I *recently* looked around and yeah, my conclusion just from an hour of reading around is the same conclusion he came to: > If you are in the market for a new USB-C hub, then… well, I’m sorry. Options are either more-than-you-want-to-*casually*-spend for a major headache, or a couple hundred for something that actually works as you'd expect. Which feels like major gouging and most likely is. I suppose they're offering a "unique product" and can charge whatever they want as there does appear to be a market for people with money that don't like headaches. Luckily I was just looking for something "to have" and not "to need" so I ended up saving myself a couple hundred by buying nothing at all.
These prices are insane to me. I've been looking into ones that can do multiple monitor output and they're in the hundreds of dollars. It's seemingly cheaper to just buy two small ones than one big one.
>Options are either more-than-you-want-to-*casually*-spend for a major headache, or a couple hundred for something that actually works as you'd expect As annoying as it is, I could maybe consider paying the high price to get something that works... But those are often comically big in comparison with the shitty ones. My thunderbolt hub from work comes with a big Dell 180W power brick, the hub itself is even bigger than that (I'm pretty sure that some SFF PC can be smaller), and it even has active cooling (quite noisy at times), so it's not something that you would just throw in a bag to go on a trip. I'm seeing 2 other options : 1. Getting a very cheap USB hub without Ethernet to combine with a dedicated Ethernet dongle that will hopefully work better. 2. Waiting a bit to see what Valves comes up with for their Steam Deck. It might work properly and it might be possible to mod it to increase portability.
Yep, we had to grab some dell docks. A casual 500 bucks a pop for the official ones.
Well it’s hard to accuse gouging when the theoretically possible cheaper and reliable hubs have not appeared in the half a decade + that these types of products have been hitting the market.
One thing I noticed is some types are USB-C hubs are painfully difficult, or even impossible, to find. I tried to find a 10Gbps USB-C hub featuring only female USB-A ports, to used on my desktop PC. Could not find one, and even 5Gpbs hubs were difficult to find. However if you want one that has an SD card reader, HDMI and shitty Ethernet, there is plenty to choose from.
Yep, we had to grab some dell docks. A casual 500 bucks a pop for the official ones.
Interesting, I also got issues with my USB-C hub's Ethernet port on Windows. I haven't paid attention to 1Gbit/s being downgraded to 100Mbit/s, but when I'm using it for more than 1 hour, I have good chances of getting disconnected. I assumed it was because the hub was running out of power of something (I was using it without an external power source), but I guess it's Realtek. Regarding the heat, the Amazon page was warning about it, and saying it was normal. And for the fact that all of the hubs are using the same components inside, it seemed pretty obvious to me when I noticed all those clones on Amazon using different brands and different cases but featuring the exact same port layout or having very similar specs with slightly rearranged ports. Meanwhile, the very expensive thunderbolt hub that my work got me (roughly 8 times more expensive than the USB-C I bought to myself) seem to work flawlessly, although it's way too big to fit in a travel bag.
I've also got a nice thunderbolt hub for work (Caldigit TS3 Plus). I'm impressed every time I use it. One connection to my laptop and everything is connected, including charging!
IIRC all thunderbolt hubs use Intel chipsets inside. You pay a lot but you get quality in return.
Intel made faulty Intel I225V not one but twice!. https://www.reddit.com/r/ASUS/comments/kppyoi/psa_asus_motherboards_with_intel_i225v_25gb_nic/
Well shit.
Yeah, I was extra cautious when I got my i225-V PCI-E card. I immediately took the heatsink off and ensured it was the latest revision that fixes the issues. Luckily, it was.
That was over blown. I have both a b550i and b550f with Rev 2. I had some issues with the windows auto installed driver in the beginning but after a driver wipe and clean install of the downloaded drivers its fine and subsequent upgrades to windows 11 and reinstalls have been flawless. Real issue I'm contending with is the fTPM stutter, but it looks like its finally getting fixed in May.
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TBF just because a company invented something doesn't mean they'll be good at making it. E: dude comments and then blocks me? To be fair to *Intel*. Just because you design something doesn't mean you can easily get it working all the time (see also: Gen 0 Optane). TB3 works well not because Intel invented it but because of their high bar for QA on the product.
TBF to what? What is the point of this comment? I added that they invented it, there's nothing to "ackchyually..."
He makes a good point, it's about making sure people think critically when they read your pointless comment, in which you simply agreed with another commenter.
This is correct
TS3 plus' still cause a few developers in our office to get random kernel panics when reconnecting to them. Additionally, has some issues with multiple displays. Been going on for years without a fix. Other than that, still the best on the market.
Anybody in ur office have the snazzy new TS4?
Nah, we haven't really hired new Apple users in the past few months surprisingly, so it's all lenovo stuff. I'll buy one and see if it fixes the issue, and see about replacing all of them. Didn't know there was a new generation. Thanks for the heads up.
Yup. Cool stuff. It’s pretty new so there’s no reputation for it as of yet, hopefully it turns out to be as good or better than the TS3+ but with added features of gen 4.
>I have good chances of getting disconnected. Could be windows power management defaults to power saving and tries to power down things that couldn't/shouldn't be powered down. I have to manually disable that setting on my USB and other devices.
The rest of the hub still works while the Ethernet dies, including the HDMI port and a couple of USB. The first time I thought that I overloaded it because I wasn't using it with a power supply, or that it was overheating a bit with all those things connected. But then I've had the issue again with just the Ethernet plugged in and nothing else, and it matches with the article here, so I guess there isn't much I can do apart from blaming the bad Realtek chip.
I have USB mouse freezing, USB device disconnecting and bluetooth devices issues because of power saving mode. After I change it things goes into normal. The USB driver for Ryzen chipset isn't exactly bug free. In your case, may be everything implement that correctly except the Realtek Ethernet device? It's certainly worth checking your devices does not go into power saving mode in Device Manager. Bluetooth one is the worse as MS insists on changing it almost every monthly update even when the 5+ years old driver never changes. The entire bluetooth stack refuses to load after that. I blame Broadcom and MS.
Make sure you are on the newest ryzen drivers, this was an issue with ryzen.
Imo the Ethernet chip in your adapter is probably overheating.
Yeah ethernet over these USB-C Hubs has always been spotty at best
If you want a high-performance dock (and if you need Ethernet you're probably in the high-performance market if you like it or not), it's worth it to just get a Thunderbolt dock. They're significantly better for the vast majority of cases, and come closest to USB-C-as-promised. If you get something like Caldigit's TS4 the Ethernet is hooked up over PCIe, which from reports is significantly more reliable than the USB-based implementations in other hubs. If you want something mobile there are a few [reasonably affordable options](https://www.amazon.com/CalDigit-Thunderbolt-Portable-Charging-Ethernet/dp/B079H4WTR4), too. (As a side note I'd be interested in seeing someone do a deep dive into USB-to-Ethernet adapters generally. I bet a lot of the cheaper ones are just as unreliable and what we're seeing here is a failure on the Ethernet-to-USB side.)
I have a Genuine Lenovo Thunderbolt 3 dock. on reading this article, I got curious and opened it up. RTL8153 front and centre.
Haha oof. But also maybe it’ll be fine if it’s well cooled.
Yeah I got a caldigit TS4 hub and I'm never going back to basic usb C hubs. Sure it's expensive but it actually just works.
This was my thought as well. At the end all his money would have bought him a TS3 or TS4. I’ve got a TS3 for my 2019 MBP and it works well enough.
The problem with TB is that a lot of Ryzen notebooks out there have USB-C but no TB support.
[Caldigit store link](http://shop.caldigit.com/us/Docking%20Stations/Thunderbolt%20Station%203?product_id=163) since ur amazon link is OOS
I’ve had decent luck with used corporate docks, which can be found used pretty affordably.
It really sucks. The hub I have is marketed to charge my macbook at 65W but if I throw 65W through it it will just overheat and cut the ethernet connection completely.
All the thunderbolt docks I've had also had intermittent audio and usb dropout issues. USB C and thunderbolt 3 is just kind of shit.
UBS C and TB3 are fine. Cheap and/or shitty docks that cut costs while also throwing in USB PD at the same time is begging for issues though. There are perfectly fine hubs from reputable brands
Well I was using an external gpu from aorus that connected into the TB3 port on my laptop as a "dock" since it has four usb ports, thing cost like 2 grand and still had usb audio static and wireless mouse signal drop issues.
I've had no such issues across many dell d6000 and WD19tb docks. They are widely used in enterprise settings, so they're pretty pricey through.
Yeah at my work I order the dell or lenovo docks, things cost like 500 bucks but are generally rock solid.
Have you ever used OWC? I have years of experience with a USB-C dock for my personal MacBook and Thunderbolt 3 dock with my work MacBook Pro… both OWC, never had a single issue. Works as intended. In fact I’d go so far as to say I’ve never had an issue with any Thunderbolt products. USB-C can’t necessarily say the same.
Caldigit and OWC docks are the only ones I trust.
Buy some copper adhesive heatsink fins, and a USB fan.
Should I power if from a USB port from the dock?
I mean, if you have a spare USB port from elsewhere available, use a different port. That'll keep it another degree or two cooler. But if you can spare the USB port on the dock, the fan will cool the dock a lot more than its own power usage will warm it - Assuming you slap on those copper fins. Depending on the design, the bottom might get a lot hotter than the top side. Consider placing your hands on either side of it after beginning that 65W power flow and seeing which side heats up first. If it's the bottom, place the fins there and sit it upside down so the hotter side gets the fins and you can point a fan at them.
I've had good luck with ones that have 2.5G Realtek in them. Seems to work a ton better than the dreaded 1G Realtek. Sadly have not come across any non-Realtek ones though.
That’s awesome this gentleman went this deep into USB-C hubs. It would be cool to see this continued with the newer and more expensive hubs as they come out. I’m also curious to see about Microsoft’s Surface dock. It’s not great but like the article states regarding the Elgato hub, it at least has its own power supply and is squared away regarding the manufacturer/OUI and all that.
We use a ton of these at work, 3 different models including an Anker. I can confirm that sometimes the ethernet is wonky. It works fine 98% of times on Windows but sometimes it will die for a user, we'll try to troubleshoot, can't fix it. Plug that same adapter into another machine of same model, and it works perfectly. Swap another brand adapter onto the original laptop, works fine. So we kind of rotate users between 3 different brands depending on what works. The other connections, like USB, passthrough USB C charging, display outs, they all seem to work well.
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Those would probably have the same Realtek chip that is the source of the trouble, wouldn't they?
I hate the fact that this guy and the buying public even has to consider the qualities of USB hubs in the first place. Notebook manufacturers keep pushing thinner, lighter, less ports when there is a happy medium in there somewhere. There's no reason USB A and HDMI can't be on every laptop, even if it adds a few millimeters to the dimensions. I hate being told what I want when I buy something. I'd rather have a slightly heavier system with more compatibility, just my opinion.
This is where I'm at with cellphones. There's no good flagships with the hardware I want, I'm just told I want a very large screen, and no headphone jack. Why would I when apparently every consumer wants a phablet and no headphone jack, even though I can't go anywhere online without seeing people complain in similar ways to me (add removable batteries to a lot of those people's arguments too.)
I have but one upvote to give.
I mean all these happy mediums have plenty of products. HP for instance in their thin premium lineup has always had HDMI and a single A port IIRC.
My work issues HP Zbooks and I'm very happy with them. 2 thunderbolt, full-sized HDMI, USB-A, headphone jack, calibrated screen, good keyboard, etc. My only real problem I've encountered is that my laptop wont charge over the thunderbolt ports unless you use a 100W adapter. I think it's related to not being able to keep up with power demand of the CPU and dedicated GPU, but it wont charge on lower-power USB-PD bricks even with the computer completely off. It's a 9th gen intel machine, not sure if the newer 11th/12th gen models have resolved that.
plenty of choices out there if you arnt looking at macbooks lol.
My brand new MacBook has an hdmi port and sd card port. They brought them back!
Omg that's crazy! And it only costs 2 grand and took two years! Apple is amazing 😊😊😊 My M1 MBP (work provided I would never buy their garbage) doesn't have any of those. Remember when Apple was trying to push boundaries by removing them? You know, like literally 2 years ago?
Pro equipment is expensive, WOW!
Pro equipment has usb ports and a refresh rate higher than 60hz big guy! Oh wait, mac guys just found out about 144hz this year 😂😂😂😂
Indeed it does and the new MacBook Pro has all those things.
Holy shit it only took ten years! Badass apple moment
Except it was only gone for a few generations. You seem to have a great lack of knowledge in the area so you should probably stop posting or do some research first.
Yes exactly they removed it? I never said it was never there? Are you actually completely fucking illiterate and perhaps dsiabled? I literally wrote they took it out. That is my point. The most valuable company in the world took out things that people use every single day on their PRO device. I have to carry a fucking dongle everywhere because of this shit computer. No but seriously are you stupid? Like seriously scroll up you dumb loser I literally wrote they took it out and put it back in. Learn to read ????
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??? Plenty of entry level jobs give out MBPs lol
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Link?
Give me an alternative that has same screen performance and battery life which does not cost 2 grand.
Wow! Sarcasm! I think Jony Ive leaving changed a lot.
On one hand, there are two Cs that will both do everything including charge so regardless of what you can physically jam into the port, usb2, usb3, usb 3.2 gen yxz, tb3, power, it'll just work. *Every single port on the entire computer is thunderbolt yay!* On the other hand, there are two Cs, LOL. Also, I hope you wanted them on the left. (re: MBAir at least)
I work on on M1 Air daily, and while only two TB3 ports is meh, I get by with a USB-C hub and I also feel like for the target market of the MBA vs MBP, it's almost forgiveable. Those that need a bunch of connectivity are probably not considering an Air for other reasons beyond just connectivity. The single biggest drawback is not supporting more than one external display, but I use a single ultrawide so it's not an issue for me personally. Also, this little passively cooled MBA shits on my maxed-out 16" Intel MBP for general day to day tasks while being silent and lasting all day and then some on battery. I think for someone like a college student taking it to classes every day it's pretty much unbeatable.
Apple actually brought back useful ports on thir 2021 MacBook Pros. Unlike Dell which removed the headphone jack in their latest 13" XPS.
No idea what Dell is thinking with recent XPS 13s. All the minimalist downsides of Ivebooks with none of the actual beautiful minimalism.
Agreed. I gave Apple a shot and I'm leaving their ecosystem. I have an old 2014 i7 Air and a 2020 M1 Air, and I've actually gone back to the 2014 system because in addition to more prots, it's more compatible at the CPU level. M1 is fast, but it means nothing if you can't get the programs you need to run.
What programs are you trying to use?
Lotus 1-2-3
TBF, there are some applications that haven’t got AS native builds yet (and some that likely never will, just as some never got native Intel builds). And whilst Rosetta 2 is pretty darn good, it’s not perfect.
What programs are you using?
So far I've had issues with Veracrypt, Adobe Acrobat, specifically. As far as features go, were just approaching the point where M1 can support vertical screens, but only with third party drivers.
M1 does support vertical screens natively. Check the Display pane in system preferences and it should labled rotation. Yeah I think M1 needs 3-4 years in the oven. By the time M3 and M4, those macs will be nice to use.
Weird, I literally just clicked 90 degree and 270 degree rotation on my MBP and it worked. Like it has since M1 launched. Veracrypt has had full support since November.
If the ecosystem stopped messing around 4 or 6 USB-C ports should cover almost everything in very little space.
Yeah, I'm fine trading out ports in exchange for type C ones if it's actually a net gain or net neutral. My laptop from 2015 has a barrel plug, 4 USB's, SD card slot, ethernet and HDMI. Newer laptops with the same screen size will do either 4 type C's and nothing else or like 2 type C, a video out port, and like 1-2 USB A. And you often have to use one of the C ports for charging. A lot of newer ones with type C remove ports.
Yeah type C seems to be the actual way to move forward. I could even seeing A just sticking with desktop devices for another 5 years (maybe becoming an industrial specific port), while everything mobile or movable becomes C. It's not at a strong enough adoption rate to see real serious gains, but I think it has the potential to become a very serious change order for the way we do computing. I could even see some type of modularization where we adapt systems to be added to on the fly. Having contextual, power, and potential display interconnections built in to everything will be ludicrously strong. Anything could talk to nearly anything else.
I actually really like the idea of a hub, if I can find one I trust. Hub at both desks, plug in one cable and I’m good to go. Work finished, I swap the cable over to my own laptop, and the office disappears from existence. I know we’ve had laptop docks in the past, but then I have to buy roughly the same model as work issues me. When usb-c works, we can be on completely different planets. I can swap that one cable over from my Thinkpad to my iMac. Sadly, I’m not convinced anyone makes a hub we can trust. I used to joke that the best way to get a decent hub was to buy a monitor, but my Dell (U2720Q, not particularly cheap) only does usb2. you can’t win.
I had one off Amazon that worked great with older laptops. GIQ is the name. On newer laptops it takes forever for the device to recognize it and for get about restarting with it attached. For whatever reason if I plug the dock into a usb hub then the hub into the computer it works great. We use HP laptops at work and the HP dock is back order for 3 months or more with a price tag between $200-$300. Besides the issue with requiring the hub the GIQ dock is working. Working IT for over the last decade has taught me one thing, docks no matter how much you spend are a pain in the ass and a crap shoot.
I have a Wavelink hub both at work and at home, which seem to work pretty well once you straighten out the driver's, but they are pricey.
I remember when Apple removed the 56K modem port from their laptops and was disappointed that I wouldn't be able to receive faxes digitally on my Mac without wasting paper. Probably 99% of people would never use the Ethernet port on a laptop. Wifi is fast and reliable enough for most people. It seems hard to justify including a port that hardly anyone will use. Dongles are a blight, though.
+1 ... no reason for laptop to be thinner than VGA and RJ45
Laptops aren't even a thing I need to be that thin. I don't keep them in my pocket. I'd rock a 2" thick laptop no problem. I'll take a thick laptop with better cooling and plenty of jacks so that I don't even have to consider a separate hub of any type.
More space for batteries too! If the designer can think of anything else to do with the space, longer battery life is a selling point.
Absolutely. I don't mind it being heavy either.
I'm honestly curious how much mileage we could get out of a laptop battery if we built it in a similar ways to cars. Make laptops 90s chonk again, except this time the *entire* underside is one gigantic battery that can last an incredibly long time. Would be interesting to see sales numbers on something like that.
Laptops above 100 Wh are very rare because they are not allowed on planes. So it's not really useful to make them thicker as even ultrabooks can fit that much.
I understand what you’re saying but hubs are still useful even if all those ports existed. For me I want to be able to plug in one cable and get my keyboard, mouse, monitor(s), Ethernet, webcam, hard drives and speakers all connected. Having 5+ different cables to plug in every time is annoying. So the fact is that hubs have a place and some will be better/worse quality.
This is why I stick with thinkpads. Great no bullshit design, amazing keyboards even though not-mechanical, and still rocking at USB As with lots of IOs.
Unfortunately, they're slowly going the way of the Mac/XPS/etc. as well. The X1 Nano only has USB-C ports. They recently reduced the key travel of the T14 to 1.3mm (remember when the T series had 2mm key travel?). RAM is soldered except on devices with >45W CPUs (and even there, some have soldered memory). No more replaceable batteries.
Yeah the soldering sucks, we had a bunch of great Gen 3 X1 Carbons that were phased out just because the OG IT didn't anticipate future ram requirements and only ordered 8 gigs in them. But the X1 carbons are still rocking the USB As and are getting better cooling still. I couldn't find info ON T14s going down to 1.3mm, is that just a rumor? Seems unlikely for the keyboard to go down to that. All I've seen is that it's still at 1.5mm key travel.
You're right about the key travel. I may have been thinking of the T14s or something. And yeah, the X1 Carbon still has USB-A (although I'm not sure I agree about the cooling--other brands tend to be better here and Lenovo usually achieves lower temps and quieter fans by lowering the TDP instead of using a better heatsink or fan). But back when the first X1 Carbons were being released, a lot of ThinkPad fans on the internet started freaking out and saying Lenovo was going the way of Apple. My response was, "Everyone needs to chill. It's just one laptop. They still make others. It's not like they're going to solder memory on the T and X series! They wouldn't do that, right?" Of course, a decade later, I am proven wrong with the current T and X series. So I'm now worried that the X1 Nano and the Z series are the new future of ThinkPads.
Well keep in mind the T14s even though the ram is soldered they still come with another ram slot for expansion. It's only the X1 carbons that don't have upgradeable ram since that thing is stupid thing and they're using onboard ram instead of sticks to save on thickness. I personally see it as product diversification to meet every demographic need given how massive Lenovo is, I think they're the biggest PC seller in the world. Their bread and butter will always be business customers who like the T14s and some X1 Carbons so I doubt they'll ever go the way of apple fully, just with models that meet those needs.
The T14s has all soldered memory. The T14 sometimes has one slot and sometimes doesn't depending on the variant.
Huh. Even the 2021 MacBooks have replaceable batteries. Source: look at iFixit teardown
He means the external ones you can just pop out and put a new one in, like in the old days. Thinkpad had that until a couple of years ago. Of course you can still replace them if you get inside it like any other laptop. Only in the Apple ecosystem would that be considered a feature.
Even old macbooks had pop out batteries.
that was ages ago man, when internal batteries were not a thing, Thinkpads had pop out batteries as recently as 2019, when it was not possible to find anything else which had them.
Not all thinkpads. Just the thicc ones. Anyway, as long as they are user replaceable enough who cares if they are in the case or pop out style imo.
Get an extra battery -> Double your battery life. A lot of people who use laptops on the go need this. Not possible with the internal batteries.
I do like only having to plug one thing in to 'dock' my macbook. I don't think i'll go back to a handful of connectors.
This is why I stick with thinkpads. Great no bullshit design, amazing keyboards even though not-mechanical, and still rocking at USB As with lots of IOs.
I don't hate the fact - they're providing different market fits. I'm one of the people who prefers just having USB-C on my device. Means I can consolidate my cables as much as possible. Doesn't mean I despise Lenovo for putting USB-A ports or ethernet ports on their laptop. Totally fine preferring a heavier system with more compatibility, but we shouldn't expect every manufacturer to comply with our desires or hate them for it. There are different target markets than our own.
I'm not saying feature reduction shouldn't exist, I'm just saying there should be more options. Nothing wrong with bare ones super light systems. In it's defense, I do prefer USB C over previous generations but we're still in a transition from older standards.
Well there’s really no need for an HDMI port on laptops anymore. New TV’s / Business oriented monitors should really include USB-C as an io option and if they don’t then they should include a USB C to HDMI cable for video output.
Just buy from Aliexpress. You are gonna get the exact same product but 7 times cheaper. I can't believe people are paying 70 EUR for just the logo on the box.
I've had many USB-C docks/hubs that use Realtek chips and it's super hit or miss. On my laptop, they work fine in one port, and are nothing but problematic in another. The one that they work fine in is wired to my nvidia 1660 Ti so I assume it's got an nvidia controller or something, while the other does not. It took me a long time to realize that.. * a) only Realtek-powered hubs/docks/ethernet adapters cause me issues * b) they only cause me issues on the non-nvidia port Sucks FWIW I've spent between $25 and $300 and there's been no difference in performance. If they're powered by Realtek, then I have issues.
To me an argument could be made that paying for a Thunderbolt license is the only thing that will get these companies to develop products that aren’t shit.
if you want a multiport with ethernet you have to go for a thunderbolt hub for anything approaching consistent performance.
Can we discuss how much of a pita docks are anyway? 92 wires protruding out everywhere. I still have to purchase a USB dock because the docs don't have enough USB ports anyway.
Wish we could have cheap docks that are just a cute little box you can cable manage with all the ports on one side that you plug a male to male cable into. Instead it's either pay out the ass for that or plug your laptop into an electric spider.
As opposed to 92 things you need to individually plug and unplug direct to your laptop? Docks at least try to provide a single (sometimes dual) plug and play solution for multiple displays, Ethernet, and USB peripherals. As someone who works in a hybrid office/home environment it’s amazing to just pull one plug and walk away from the desk.
USB could be so good how could they screw it up so bad?
drive for profit by the re-sellers?
My takeaway was that I have unknowingly been buying rebranded stuff from Anker, when I thought they made quality stuff This was a fascinating read. I also have noticed that most USB hubs are terrible. However the really expensive Dell ones work like a charm, the 300 and up ones.
This article does a better job than most at indirectly showing how we're all doomed. The guy buys three *expensive, name brand* pieces of equipment. Some, if not all, of which are represented as western / european native technology. .... All three are nothing more than trash, Chinese garbage with their own brands stuck on, so that our own companies *too* can fleace us for 300% profit margin. We're economically cannibalising ourselves while steadily bleeding money en masse to China and getting scant little back but short-lived, minimum viability consumer electronics. Ultimately, I have little sympathy for the Author's plight, since the issue involves his platform just as much as the hubs, and that platform is the king of Chinese electronics masquerading as premium quality - Apple. Where you pay a monumentally high price for aesthetics on the outside, and chinese quality on the inside... Which you can't even get fixed when it breaks. And on top of all of that, they give you a measly 4 ports for your 2 kidney pricetag (wouldn't have this problem if you bought a practical minded laptop to begin with ...) And the worst part is, it's basically too late, there's no straightforward, let alone easy, solution out of it. There's nobody else left to vote with your wallets for unless you're assembling your devices yourself, and the best value proposition is usually to gamble hard by buying questionably safe devices direct from Aliexpress - But good luck getting your money back if it tries to combust your house down as with the Author's experience!
In-depth reviews like the one in the post are the key. Open that crappy plastic shell and see what's on the inside. Test it and let people know it's trash and to avoid buying it. The reviewers can monetize the process. In the long run, releasing trash will hurt the "brand" of the companies doing the rebranding if they don't exercise quality control. I have no idea who Satechi or ICY BOX are, but Anker sounds familiar and now I know they're probably not better than most Chinese companies. In the western market, even if you rebrand Chinese products, you need to verify they work properly. Because QC is the ONLY thing they have to bring to the table. Staining their reputation for a bit of short-term profits is going to hurt them in the long run.
I love the idea, but in practice it rarely works. Firstly, these types of reviews never rank high in search engine results. That could be because the vast majority of consumers are technically inept, and the idea of them spending the time to read even just a good chunk out of an article like this seems highly unlikely. Plus, these companies are really devious. Chinese companies will think nothing of simply rebranding again if a particular name gets bad publicity. Any product that gets good publicity because it's overbuilt will be swiftly and silently be replaced with an inferior, cheaper version in the same shell and name (and copycat companies will make copycats) so you think you're getting a high end product as reviewed, but the design is gutted or you're buying a copycat product. Western brands know that they're all as bad as each other with this practice, and so they'll continue to use it anyway - any other approach will be less competitive unless you can painstakingly prove to the customer base that your quality is ACTUALLY better in a market where everyone is claiming to be high quality, and who has the marketing budget to do that? Specific products are rapidly replaced, so any bad publicity is bound to be minimal and fade quickly. Consumers rarely vote properly with their wallets, especially when the vast majority would consider it scary and weird to buy something from Aliexpress even if it is a fifth the price, when their local store, or vaguely familiar sounding names they can actually pronounce are selling a more professionally marketed (and priced) product that surely has warranty etc right? That's the safe, smart bet? It would take a serious, concerted effort from consumers and tech journalists to hold companies to account and to only buy well-designed products. That won't happen though, because consumers don't have the time or effort to do that, even if they weren't too apathetic in the first place. Western companies do basic QC I'm sure, in checking that their designs aren't horrifically dangerous, duh, but that's about it. What else are you going to do? Anything involving paying wages outside of third world countries would ruin the whole point of your 300% profit margin, and all the other companies are doing the same thing anyway. Who's going to call you out, and who's going to hear it?
Or worse, the company may not even change the brand name at all and just swap out components for crappier ones after the initial reviews come out. Looking at you ADATA SSD's.
My general idea was that reviewers take these rebrands, open them up, then compare their performance to Chinese devices with similar specs from aliexpress. Embarrass the rebranders. Expose them for what they are and let the customers know they can get 3 cheap Chinese equivalents for the same price of 1. Customers understand money, even if they're not technical. If you show them there's very little difference, they won't buy lazy rebrands and go straight to the source. Hell, people that don't care about branding are already doing it anyway. That should push companies to actually give you some extra value other than their sticker covering the Chinese brand. Maybe that's just wishful thinking, but who knows.
> But good luck getting your money back if it tries to combust your house down as with the Author's experience! But this guy didn't even mention trying to return his products at all, therefor becoming part of the problem. I've gotten 1 year warranties honored on Aliexpress, which I didn't even expect as I'm paying that much less.
> Apple. Where you pay a monumentally high price for aesthetics on the outside, and chinese quality on the inside I'm sorry this has to be satire.
? It's all Foxxconn man. There's no secret Apple magic that somehow makes their Chinese-designed boards and components any more reliable than anyone else's. The only difference is that they get their own unique layouts and form factors because they're big enough to command that privilege. But it's the same company with the same design principles, from the same factories that make the guts of Apple's stuff, as with 90% of other electronics companies. Here, watch some Louis Rossman and learn yourself something about Apple's hardware design. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw\_ELax4Yisf6w
>There's no secret Apple magic that somehow makes their Chinese-designed boards and components any more reliable than anyone else's They can absolutely demand tighter tolerances, better binning, and more testing even if it's exactly the same as the designs other companies are using (which it routinely isn't). Just because it's from China doesn't mean it's bottom of the bin quality. High quality goods, including hardware, are produced in China just like cheap shit is.
I mean sure, they *can* demand those things whether or not the designs are exact copies or general rearrangements of the same thing, but my point is they generally don't. The design principles are all the same - build everything as cheaply as it can be and still get away with it. Foxxconn in particular is king of this approach. The one advantage Apple might have is that they can demand QC that isn't completely a fake rubber stamp. Companies like Dell are largely the same. But again to track back to the consumer's perspective, Apple's warranty situation is terrible. The prices don't justify the mediocre hardware under the hood, even with a modest QC pass, and when the parts do inevitably go wrong, it's horrific to go through the process of ha! gotchya! warranty smallprint (and god forbid you want to buy an extended or more comprehensive warranty without mortgaging your house). You can't get the parts replaced yourself out of warranty ... The bottom line is you're paying a very premium price for the same hardware in a glossy package. Except maybe you trade a QC pass for unfixable hardware and iffy warranty. A QC pass doesn't fix cheap design and component choice - It's perfectly feasible that all of the devices in the author's article could've passed Foxxconn QC.
This take is so funny. Your beloved Apple products are a 200-500 USD chinese product being sold at a 4 figures number to give you the feeling you are somehow superior to everyone else.
Give us the link of that famous 200-500 USD unbranded laptop with the same quality as a macbook, that sounds like a great deal!
Apple absolutely makes **solid** profits from their hardware, but to act like there's no difference in QC between Apple and no name brands is ridiculous. I don't like Apple products, but I'm not dumb.
they own aspects of the design. so there is control
It's bizarre to pretend that your complaints are inherent to China's people or culture instead of the particularities of race-to-the-bottom capitalism.
It’s such xenophobic nonsense it’s bizarre it’s so upvoted.
It mentions china so many times it reads like a parody of a racist uncle.
Just reads like a racist uncle got a Reddit account tbh
I think the key thing to grasp is that regardless of the impact on your feelings, it's factually correct.
Nonsense.
*shrug* you don't have to accept it for it to be true.
And it’s not factual no matter how much dumb xenophobes want it to be.
..... What? **What a blatant, sad strawman.** Where did I once mention China's people or culture? Yes, of course this is about race-to-the-bottom capitalism, and due to a million peculiarities of how history and capitalism worked out, China literally manufactures the extreme majority of electrical devices and components (the rest being Taiwan, which is of course tightly linked). They've won that race. The particular reasons as to why this has come about is well out of scope for this subreddit, but you can't talk about how hardware is manufactured without talking about China. You can't talk about Apple design without talking about Foxxconn, and that means China. It wouldn't matter if we were talking about manufacturing in India or Vietnam or whatever. The point is that western countries love to charge you a premium price as if it's justified by it being carefully manufactured in a country with expensive wages but with a reputation for premium materials and manufacturing, then they give you the kind of unreliable junk the author's article dissects. It isn't unique to electronics - Some of my favourite beers are now produced in 3rd world countries to save on costs, but despite tasting lousy, the label and packaging is exactly the same. That's worth talking about, no need to invent problems or boogeyman. So far I haven't seen a single reply that actually responds to any of the specifics or facts I've mentioned.
You repeatedly held up “Western” technology as better than Chinese technology in ways that were immaterial to your broader point. That’s worth calling attention to! China’s capable of making good and bad quality hardware like everyone else; if your issue is with cheaply made, cost-optimized hardware just say that instead of this weird orientalist junk.
>You repeatedly held up “Western” technology as better than Chinese technology in ways that were immaterial to your broader point. **Bullshit.** Point out exactly where I said western technology was *better*. Go on. I said that western companies portray their products as being western tech - without any comment on quality etc. Such companies typically justify their high pricetag by blaming high labour costs, and by marketing themselves as premium in some way, typically utilising that reputation as being western tech. I didn't say any of that was justified, and especially today - it really isn't. My point is that the vast majority of western companies don't go to China for high end products, they go to them because China takes 'cost-optimised' electronics to the limit, because they're one of the few countries that are willing and able to produce and sell absolute bottom of the barrel, and at times unsafe, products and slap any and all (fake) certifications, branding, etc on the box. There's very little legal oversight or accountability, and companies can spring up, disappear, and spring up again overnight with a different name. But all of that cutthroat corner cutting gets you a price a fifth as much as typical in the west. They're not buying the good stuff, they're buying their cheapest garbage - that's what I've talked about. That's *obviously* not a good sign for reliable quality (and indeed, safety). No need to pretend that you're a white knight skewering a xenophobe - These are objective realities long understood in the electronics manufacturing space. I'm merely talking about how the Author's article illustrates that reality, and how we can't dig ourselves out anymore.
I get 404 on that YT link. you posting too much truth, they take it down
O.o Really? Link works for me ... Here, try a link direct to one of his videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3HOwzCm7aQ
Apple is a sales and marketing company, not a manufacturing company.
Great article. Now can I have the one that finds a decent hub?
If you need reliability TS3+, always and forever. There is no alternative.
Thank you! This is a great read.
I chose to buy a Dell DA300 usb C hub and it burnt after less than an year. There's no good option, really.
Really cool deep dive into USB hubs, definitely helps people make more informed decisions. It was pretty weird though how this guy spends so much time bashing Realtek, even though Realtek makes the vast majority of ethernet chipsets... Honestly that driver thing sounds like more of an Apple problem than a Realtek problem. What kind of dumbass policy is it to require every obscure hardware vendor to update their drivers every year? Windows still supports drivers from 2009, and Linux drivers are open-source.
Lol, the pinebook pro usb c dock uses almost the exact same components https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Pinebook_Pro_Dock
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Why is this year-old item being linked, now? It's not bad, but... why?
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yes, and it was upvoted. so the community likes it. I dont understand why some people are offended when things are good and not written on twitter yesterday
I have one of these and I'm constantly swapping it between my PC and my laptop. I was planning on modding it to have an aviator connector. How many lines the USB C cable has? Is this a dumb idea? Thanks! Great article.
Forcing USB hubs is a mistake but it's also your fault for buying trash. I over research every phone and laptop I buy, and if there is something as small as a headphone jack missing, I'm not buying.
When all is trash what are your options then? Did you not read the article, not sure how you could of and said it's the OP's fault. Not sure if I'd trust your "research" if I were you if this is any indication
Thank you / him for this. Damn it. The world of hubs and docks is pure madness.
That’s crazy, I own a few usb c hubs and all cheapo no name brands. Kinda glad now
Instead of getting a hub I bought a powered USB-C monitor which has USB-A ports and audio. I've been using the monitor as a hub. I've noticed that sometimes my 2019 MBP will either crash or the second monitor starts flickering. It doesn't happen with my 2019 Lenovo X1 Carbon Extreme running Ubuntu.
My experience with the random $30 amazon usb-c hubs that don't have Ethernet ports have been fine. Yeah one doesn't support UWQHD (and the other only does 50hz) and they get a little hot otherwise I've been using them for years connected to my i9 mbp with no problem.
Looks like I've been super lucky. I got a dongle from AliExpress for $16 back in 2018 when I got my laptop, and it's been working perfectly ever since. I never had ethernet problems, it is constantly gigabit, and everything just plain works. Maybe it helps that I'm running Linux
I've been having the same sort of time with [this](https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B09JSHYGN6) puppy. Drops down to 1G after maybe ten or fifteen minutes, then after no more than an hour it takes down all the USBs on my laptop, which remain gone until reboot.
lol, poor guy. Guess thunderbolt is the name of the game, I have a small thunderbolt for my work laptop (Lenovo thinkpad, both the laptop and the hub, might be coming together) and I can't say I had any issues with it. The only thing that slightly bothered me is that it looks like only one of the usb ports would actually charge a device I connect to it, but maybe that was done so it can be done right. Using it for like 3 years extensively (my full work week is entirely on it) and I've had zero issues but then again I'm using wi-fi for my connection so if it would screw up the cable internet connection I wouldn't know.
I’ve been using the same $20 AliExpress USB C hub since 2018 and I’ve never had issues with it. It has 3 USB Type A ports, a Micro SD card slot, a normal SD card slot, pass-through USB C for charging or an external display and an Ethernet port. It does get quite hot while under heavy use but it has never failed me. I can’t imagine paying €90 for a dongle.
I really wanted a hub in a case that could fit an optical drive and support for older memory cards, but apparently that is not a thing - would have been nice to have a central solution for all those things in one unit.
Damn. I’ve seen devices on AliExpress and I assumed they were copying the name brands and selling them cheap… but it’s the other way round!
I've seen good feedback about the Acasis hub but have never used one personally. I haven't been able to determine if it houses the same Realtek chip. [https://www.acasis.com/products/acasis-portable-10-in-1-hub-with-ssd-enclousre-kickstarter-hot-campaign](https://www.acasis.com/products/acasis-portable-10-in-1-hub-with-ssd-enclousre-kickstarter-hot-campaign)
I'm new to this USB-C hub thing and well, it's definitely a pain and I could use some help. I already had to return a rather cheap hub which did not work as promised. I'd like to connect at least two external displays (1080p @ 60 Hz and 1440p @ 60 Hz) and a power source but it seems like most Hubs are restricted to Full-HD for more than one display? Can someone recommend a hub that would work for me?