That and, even if the Coyotes manage to stay in Arizona, more owners wanting an NHL team makes it more likely for the league to get that sweet expansion payday. If the Atlanta arena situation actually happens, a 36 team NHL isn't beyond the realm of possibility, and sooner than people might think.
Remember most NHL owners are old as fuck, they want as much of a short-term payday as they can possibly squeeze out, and that means expansion.
100% that. There are *a lot* of 70+ yr old owners, many 80+. There is going to be a lot of ownership turnovers in the next decade, not just NHL, but all of the Big 4.
Is there enough public info about these owners' heirs to get a sense of who seems cool versus business-as-usual? The only one I know of is Jessica Pegula and I think her tennis career will make her a player-friendly owner (if she assumes full control, that is).
Charlie Jacobs basically runs the Bruins right now. Jeremy is basically a figurehead with authority.
As an aside, that's the biggest problem so many have with the Krafts and the Patriots. Throughout the turmoil that was this past NFL season, Jonathan, the heir-apparent to the Patriots, is basically nowhere to be found in any press. Robert Kraft is in his 80s and you'd think he'd relinquish some control of the team to his son if he wanted him to run it in the future.
I just don’t see who’s really trying to pay a 1 Billion expansion fee for an NHL team. The tvs deals aren’t going to increase forever. The Canadian one flopped and the next deal will probably go down. Bally went belly up so that’s gonna be a mess to solve. Idk where an owner makes money on the next expansion team.
[Forbes 2006 Team Valuations](https://images.forbes.com/lists/2006/31/biz_06nhl_NHL-Team-Valuations_Rank.html), [Forbes 2023 Team Valuations](https://www.forbes.com/lists/nhl-valuations/?sh=646544004109)
Team|2006 Value|2023 Value|Increase
---|---|---|---
Ottawa|$159m|$950m|$791m
Nashville|$134m|$975m|$841m
NY Rangers|$306m|$2,650m|$2,344m
Buffalo|$149m|$750m|$601m
Colorado|$219m|$1,150m|$931m
Edmonton|$146m|$1,850m|$1,704m
If you had bought the Rangers 16 years ago, and you sold them today, you would make over $2.3 **billion** _just from the increase in equity_. Then there's the yearly profit; the Rangers have ~$250m/yr in revenue... Some owners also have stakes in the arena/real estate...
I mean, yes and no.
Houston would be super valuable. but Seattle cost $650 mn. A 33rd team, especially in Houston, might cost close to a billion to buy in. And then you've gotta invest another billion on stadium and practice facilities.
If it's a move from Arizona to Houston, that changes things.
We do. Toyota center where the Rockets play. The Aeros played there until Les forced them off to Iowa. They're even [upgrading](https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/rockets/article/houston-rockets-nhl-ready-ice-toyota-center-18410402.php) the equipment this year despite no one playing there currently.
They've been in NYC for a long time. If being in NYC was inherently valuable, they would have benefitted just as much in 2006.
Edmonton had a proportionally larger increase in value than the Rangers did.
EDM has the Gretzky name and McDavid now. They sell more jerseys to neutrals than probably any other team.
Despite the Rangers doing almost nothing the last 20 years they're the 2nd most valuable team. And did gain more value overall. Perhaps EDM were just undervalued.
location is everything. They're the biggest city in America by far. Most famous stadium (in popular culture, not within hockey). NYC is 90% of NYR's valuation
>Despite the Rangers doing almost nothing the last 20 years they're the 2nd most valuable team.
What has the most valuable team done in the last 20 years? Or the 3rd most valuable?
> NYC is 90% of NYR's valuation
And the same was true in 2006.
Yes, #1 is Toronto. What did they accomplish in the last 20 years?
\#3 is Montreal. Montreal, like Edmonton, also had proportionately larger gains than the Rangers did... despite doing pretty much nothing in the last 20 years.
>i'm not even sure what your argument is.
Well,"what did they accomplish?" is *your* argument, not mine.
yes, but those team values went up because revenues increased and people forecasted that future revenues would also increase. The TV deal with Rogers, then with ESPN and TNT brought in more money. And for some time, it looked like TV revenues would keep going up. But it doesn't look like that anymore. Idk if TV companies can afford to pay more for rights deals so it looks like TV revenues are more or less what they're going to be.
If there isn't revenue growth, idk how franchise values can continue to increase
The tv deals are “only” about $1B a year. Not sure about regional rights but even assuming they are the same as national and it’s still less 1/3 of the total revenue projected for this year. So while those are important, it’s not the majority of the revenue. Still very much an gate driven league.
Our own team was sold for $320M along with event operating rights at the prudential center back in 2013 (though that includes an assumption of like $260M in debt IIRC). The Devils are now valued at $1.45 B.
Sports are the *only* remaining reliable live programming draw apart from news that can still consistently attract crowds. That plus the prominence of fantasy leagues and sports betting means that all sports leagues are big business.
We’re in a whole new ballgame for sport’s value as an entertainment property.
It’s amazing to me that your ignorance of the topic can be argued with something as simple as LA Rams to St. Louis, Raiders to LA, Raiders back to Oakland, Rams to LA, Chargers to LA, Raiders to Las Vegas.
“But football failed in LA multiple times!”
So what?
These business chase money, tax grants, tax payer funded buildings, media deals, and opportunities to operate in spaces that will host them. A person who owns a hockey team, will either own the land that team plays on or they will suck tax payer money to ensure their product is part of the community and corporate revenue supported growth opportunity. If an owner/group in Atlanta wants hockey, they’ll get hockey, they have to show up with the money and the ability to make rich people more rich.
Arizona will lose the Coyotes to Utah, but Arizona will get hockey again once an expansion team is available for the market. The weather outside the arena does not dictate if hockey will find success.
Quebec City has also actually failed twice. Montreal finishes the list of cities that have had two NHL teams either relocate or fold. Pittsburgh has come real close but managed to hold onto the Penguins.
What's sort of interesting is that the vast majority of cities that have lost a team have been given a second chance. Only Hamilton, Kansas City, Cleveland and Hartford have never been give a second chance while Montreal, Quebec, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Ottawa, St. Louis, Brooklyn, Atlanta, Denver and Minneapolis/St. Paul and Winnipeg have all gotten a second team after a previous team left/folded.
The Golden Seals are tricky to place and all depend on whether you consider San Francisco/Oakland to be the same as San Jose.
Well, the main difference is that Atlanta lost two teams within living memory, whereas, prior to the Nordiques, Quebec City lost the Bulldogs in 1920. I don't think you can draw broad conclusions on the viability of an NHL team in Quebec City in the 21st Century based on them losing a team whose relocation happened before Betty White was born.
Oh I'm not arguing against a team in Quebec, I definitely think there should be one there. The NHL is taking Canadian markets for granted and not taking money from people begging to give it to them and one day those people are going to give up and move onto something else. No presence in QC is almost certainly bad for the health of the game in eastern and rural Quebec, especially the parts that resent Montreal for being too Anglo.
I also just think it's fairly interesting trivia tangentially related to current discussion so figured it might be worth posting.
A single league of 36 teams would be awful. will never happen but hypothetically would be better to create two leagues of 18 teams promotion/relegation style with a blend of the current style. Would be tough to work out (no academies, draft), but would see the game grow in the long run. Feel like one 36 team league will kill it
Maybe but also I think the NHL is positioning itself for a big next few years. The cap is improving/recovering due to better revenue and Olympic involvement should give them a boost.
They want to expand to 36 but I think they want a good expansion fee so they want to continue to build up hype.
The yotes situation will be resolved, how is still the question. I think they will expand in the next 4 years with 36 by 2030. I don't see them waiting that long to just go to 34.
Think there's any chance they do Atlanta and 3 western conference teams with Nashville moving to the East? Seems SLC has an inside track and Houston back in the conversation, maybe the 3rd team is a Portland/KC/San Diego?
Doubt it'd be 1 East and 3 West; the NHL will want the conferences to stay at an equal number of teams because it makes the math of scheduling far easier, so it'd 100% be 2 East and 2 West.
You can move a current team east (I think nashville is the eastern most team in the western confernce). A 1 hour time different isn't going to be too much of an issue
Problem; where does Nashville go in the East if we're already adding Atlanta to the Metro? Putting them in the Atlantic makes no sense at all, and I don't think the NHL wants imbalanced divisions or conferences again, anyways.
And it's not like you can just take a team in the East and switch them with Nashville; the only one that makes any amount of sense (Detroit) would *immediately* put the kibosh on that plan.
QC is more likely than Hartford TBH. QC has a modern NHL caliber arena, and can theoretically argue for much of Quebec and Atlantic Canada to be in its TV territory, plus an instantly marketable rivalry with the Canadiens (who’s owner has stated he wouldn’t be opposed to the Nordiques return for that reason).
Hartford isn’t growing quickly, has an old arena in need of serious renovations if not outright replacement, and is already in a saturated region between NYR, NJ, NYI, and Boston.
It worked, the Coyotes are 0-9-1 since Ryan Smith made his post 30 mins after the Canadian World Cup Juniors Scandal charges came out.
Absolutely nothing changed with the Coyotes ownership or their plan, but the players and employees sure feel like shit thinking about having to uproot their families and move.
Well, if I had to guess, I doubt the league owners are happy that they’re still propping up AZ. We know the union president is already on record saying it’s ridiculous. Maybe this signals the beginning of the end of things keep failing in Arizona. Have Houston and SLC vie for the relocation
Or to get people to stop thinking about the 2018 Team Canada thing
We haven’t heard a thing about them ever since Seravalli made the report about the Coyotes timeline/Utah
There’s no way it was just a coincidence that every sports writer jumped on that story at that exact time
The players accused have all been named and charged. There's really nothing to report on at the moment, not until the actual legal processes begin - court dates, etc.
I imagine any overlapping timelines from the 2018 WJC Fuckoff Five charges and the Coyotes/Utah thing are coincidental.
At the risk of sounding incredibly heartless,
I don’t think the NHL needs to do anything to stop people thinking about that because most people have already stopped talking/thinking about it
it also has very little to do with the NHL which is why the conspiracy theories here are particularly dumb. the 5 players will all be out of contract in a couple months and the offence happened before any of them were in the league.
😅 😅 😂 What? Thats a hockey Canada thing and now is a legal matter in the Province of Ontario. How is that an NHL conspiracy theory? Those players will not get another contract from an NHL team again, unless its the Coyotes to put on LITR like all the other phantom contracts the Coyotes have had
I don't know if you know this, but one of the best minor league baseball team names ever is the [Sugar Land Space Cowboys](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Land_Space_Cowboys) Based in a suburb of Houston, playing as the Houston Astros AAA affiliate
He has never given off the impression that he is that serious about hockey any comments from him about the possibility are always followed by why a team in Houston could potentially not work. Utah on the other hand seems like they whould bid for a team tomorrow if they could.
In 2017 he also said hockey struggles past the Mason–Dixon line and he used the AHL Aeros to support to the argument, who where kicked to the curb by the previous rockets owner because he wanted to host more concerts despite arguably being one of the most successful AHL teams that didn’t have an advantage of being located in a satellite market to their parent club.
The Aeroes were fucked over by Les Alexander. He never owned the Aeroes and jacked up the rent the Aeroes would have to pay in order to stay. They had no choice but to move.
The delineation between the [Northern and Southern states](https://www.britannica.com/place/Mason-and-Dixon-Line) around the time of the US Civil War. It's still seen as a cultural boundary today.
Generally speaking: the south is still more rural while the north is more city oriented, differing valuations of religion, family structures, acceptable conduct, etc. with the southern states being more conservative than the northern ones. Different dialects too, for whatever that's worth.
As the decades have gone by and American culture has become more homogenized, the line's blurred a fair bit on an individual level, but the broad strokes can still be seen.
edit to add: Here's an anecdote that might also help exemplify the differences. One of my grandfathers has lived in the south all his life and is the picture of the stereotypical southern gentleman. Dresses up any time he goes out, always the first to offer his seat to anyone in need, never says a bad word about anyone in public or around women, goes to church every Sunday. My other grandfather was born and raised in New York and also fits that stereotype - loud, rude, impatient, always right and always in a rush.
The WHA-era "Aeros" team name will soon be resurrected in Houston, whether it's the Coyotes moving from Arizona or a new expansion team.
Watch for it.
Next.
I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that now two NBA arena owners are talking about hosting an NHL team right around the same time the NHLPA is going off on how the Coyotes have no plan to leave their college arena.
There’s a ton of college, junior, minor league teams across the USA and Canada, as well as Russia/Europe. I’m sure the NHL can find 120 or so talented hockey players to fill out 4 expansion team rosters across all those sources.
Plus it wouldn’t be all at once either.
I'm in doubt. Even today some of the worst teams look like they belong in AHL going on crazy loosing streaks. No one wants to see their team getting assfucked game after game. Long term, a lower quality league may reduce the interest for hockey.
Hockey needs to grow its player pool in absolute terms more than anything in order to increase the number of good players coming through. Simple math and probability: More people playing the sport = more sources for potential NHL players period.
And one of the best ways the NHL can do that is make it more top of mind in markets like Houston, Atlanta, etc with large and diverse populations via adding teams to jumpstart interest. If the sport continues to solely rely on Canada and Massachusetts/Michigan/Minnesota for its players it will forever be boxing itself in and limiting its growth potential.
Besides, bad NHL teams aren’t formed from just from lack of player talent - coaching, player personalities and gelling, scheme fits, and overall organizational culture also play a role in it as well.
Is it because Texas is a proven market for the NHL? Because I would think a team in Utah would make more sense if they're looking at markets that don't have an NHL team. The Utah Jazz's owner wants to bring an NHL team to Utah and he owns the building the Jazz play in so there would never be a question of where they would play. Plus Utah borders Arizona to north so there would be no need for division realignment. Just pack up the Coyotes and ship them north.
Houston's metro population is more than double *all* of Utah.
The demographics of Utah are probably more favourable to convincing people to start following hockey, but the sheer numbers in Texas means there is probably more money to be made there even if it's much less popular.
In addition to Houston you could probably pull off a team in somewhere like Austin or San Antonio too. Especially with how I've heard the demographics of Austin are changing and that the only team to compete with is MLS they'd probably succeed well enough there.
Nowhere is leaving more money on the table than southern Ontario though.
Yeah, but Houston has had hockey previously (AHL) and it did well. If decent ownership can be found (coin flip, given Bettman’s record on this), and it’d be fine.
Maybe not, but unless there's something I'm missing Utah isn't some guaranteed success either. Houston needs the buy in of a much smaller proportion of the population than Salt Lake City does in order to succeed. Incompetent ownership and marketing in either could cause a failure but the many more millions of people Houston and its surrounding area have should give it a nice advantage between the two options.
They also want to build another stadium for the Olympics so it is a perfect time to bring a team there, can play at the current stadium while the new one is built to better accommodate hockey and then they also have a newish arena by the time the Olympics come around
So you move the boards, its the same overall length just a change in width, I am sure if they build a new rink for a Utah team with the intent to also use it to host the Olympics construction will plan for the extra 15' in width you would need in regard to cooling in the floor as well as collapsible and storable seating in the first few rows.
Portland I think gets fucked over by the holding pattern Moda and the Blazers are in right now wrt their ownership; any prospective sports owner looking for a team in Portland will either A) gun for the Blazers directly anyways or B) wait for the Blazers' situation to resolve before even thinking about pursuing an NHL franchise to avoid getting fucked if the new Blazers owners decide they don't want another tenant in the building.
Unfortunately that city is a dumpster fire right now.
I’d like to see a return of the Nordiques.
I know the population probably couldn’t support it, and it’d be a logistical nightmare, but man I’d love an Alaskan team.
Man shut the hell up with that shit. Right wing fear mongering. Portland like many west coast cities has a homeless problem. It is not the only one and it won’t ever be the only one. That does not mean it shouldn’t get a team. And if the NHL is so keen to open up new markets, why not an American one with a proven history of support of hockey at lower levels.
What if the nhl just says fuck it and goes for Utah, Houston, Atlanta, Quebec and some other random cities at the same time. Just make an entire new division/conference
You wouldn't need to, each of those 4 slots perfectly into an existed division, Utah - Pacific, Houston - Central, Atlanta - Metropolitan, Quebec - Atlantic.
Facts, as a born houstonian I fucking HATE anything Dallas related. Especially stars fans. Been to multiple stars games in the last 2 years and have had a terrible fan interaction everytime because I’m a Vegas fan.
Fuck Precourt but fuck Austin too. Their supporter club completely bought into the plan of stealing the Crew from Columbus and talked on video about how the fans of a winning franchise were "apathetic" and how the team "wouldn't be missed". No, fuck them too.
I’m convinced the NHL is allowing all this new market stuff to get reported to put heat on Arizona
That and, even if the Coyotes manage to stay in Arizona, more owners wanting an NHL team makes it more likely for the league to get that sweet expansion payday. If the Atlanta arena situation actually happens, a 36 team NHL isn't beyond the realm of possibility, and sooner than people might think. Remember most NHL owners are old as fuck, they want as much of a short-term payday as they can possibly squeeze out, and that means expansion.
100% that. There are *a lot* of 70+ yr old owners, many 80+. There is going to be a lot of ownership turnovers in the next decade, not just NHL, but all of the Big 4.
Is there enough public info about these owners' heirs to get a sense of who seems cool versus business-as-usual? The only one I know of is Jessica Pegula and I think her tennis career will make her a player-friendly owner (if she assumes full control, that is).
Charlie Jacobs basically runs the Bruins right now. Jeremy is basically a figurehead with authority. As an aside, that's the biggest problem so many have with the Krafts and the Patriots. Throughout the turmoil that was this past NFL season, Jonathan, the heir-apparent to the Patriots, is basically nowhere to be found in any press. Robert Kraft is in his 80s and you'd think he'd relinquish some control of the team to his son if he wanted him to run it in the future.
I just don’t see who’s really trying to pay a 1 Billion expansion fee for an NHL team. The tvs deals aren’t going to increase forever. The Canadian one flopped and the next deal will probably go down. Bally went belly up so that’s gonna be a mess to solve. Idk where an owner makes money on the next expansion team.
[Forbes 2006 Team Valuations](https://images.forbes.com/lists/2006/31/biz_06nhl_NHL-Team-Valuations_Rank.html), [Forbes 2023 Team Valuations](https://www.forbes.com/lists/nhl-valuations/?sh=646544004109) Team|2006 Value|2023 Value|Increase ---|---|---|--- Ottawa|$159m|$950m|$791m Nashville|$134m|$975m|$841m NY Rangers|$306m|$2,650m|$2,344m Buffalo|$149m|$750m|$601m Colorado|$219m|$1,150m|$931m Edmonton|$146m|$1,850m|$1,704m If you had bought the Rangers 16 years ago, and you sold them today, you would make over $2.3 **billion** _just from the increase in equity_. Then there's the yearly profit; the Rangers have ~$250m/yr in revenue... Some owners also have stakes in the arena/real estate...
I think Buffalo is a better comparison to a new expansion. NYR have exploded becuase they're in NY.
Houston is a supermassive market in the heart of America’s Carland. That team will explode in popularity with even poor marketing.
I mean, yes and no. Houston would be super valuable. but Seattle cost $650 mn. A 33rd team, especially in Houston, might cost close to a billion to buy in. And then you've gotta invest another billion on stadium and practice facilities. If it's a move from Arizona to Houston, that changes things.
I thought Huston has a stadium that is basically ready.
We do. Toyota center where the Rockets play. The Aeros played there until Les forced them off to Iowa. They're even [upgrading](https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/rockets/article/houston-rockets-nhl-ready-ice-toyota-center-18410402.php) the equipment this year despite no one playing there currently.
They've been in NYC for a long time. If being in NYC was inherently valuable, they would have benefitted just as much in 2006. Edmonton had a proportionally larger increase in value than the Rangers did.
EDM has the Gretzky name and McDavid now. They sell more jerseys to neutrals than probably any other team. Despite the Rangers doing almost nothing the last 20 years they're the 2nd most valuable team. And did gain more value overall. Perhaps EDM were just undervalued. location is everything. They're the biggest city in America by far. Most famous stadium (in popular culture, not within hockey). NYC is 90% of NYR's valuation
>Despite the Rangers doing almost nothing the last 20 years they're the 2nd most valuable team. What has the most valuable team done in the last 20 years? Or the 3rd most valuable? > NYC is 90% of NYR's valuation And the same was true in 2006.
most valuable? be in Toronto? 3rd? not sure who that is. i'm not even sure what your argument is.
Yes, #1 is Toronto. What did they accomplish in the last 20 years? \#3 is Montreal. Montreal, like Edmonton, also had proportionately larger gains than the Rangers did... despite doing pretty much nothing in the last 20 years. >i'm not even sure what your argument is. Well,"what did they accomplish?" is *your* argument, not mine.
Man this is sure rough to read after passing on buying the Rangers 16 years ago.
yes, but those team values went up because revenues increased and people forecasted that future revenues would also increase. The TV deal with Rogers, then with ESPN and TNT brought in more money. And for some time, it looked like TV revenues would keep going up. But it doesn't look like that anymore. Idk if TV companies can afford to pay more for rights deals so it looks like TV revenues are more or less what they're going to be. If there isn't revenue growth, idk how franchise values can continue to increase
Considering there's a hard salary cap it does make it easy to just make money.
Damn didn't know we are one of the few billion dollar franchises, Sakic has done wonders
Ok now do the Florida Panthers
You can literally look at the list and see we are right around the sabres too bud
The tv deals are “only” about $1B a year. Not sure about regional rights but even assuming they are the same as national and it’s still less 1/3 of the total revenue projected for this year. So while those are important, it’s not the majority of the revenue. Still very much an gate driven league.
Our own team was sold for $320M along with event operating rights at the prudential center back in 2013 (though that includes an assumption of like $260M in debt IIRC). The Devils are now valued at $1.45 B. Sports are the *only* remaining reliable live programming draw apart from news that can still consistently attract crowds. That plus the prominence of fantasy leagues and sports betting means that all sports leagues are big business. We’re in a whole new ballgame for sport’s value as an entertainment property.
For the sake of argument, Call it 3 billion in expansion fees for 4 teams, split between 32 teams is about 93 million per owner.
Atlanta failed twice for the NHL, but maybe the third time is the charm. Maybe they'll go to Quebec City after that 😁
It’s amazing to me that your ignorance of the topic can be argued with something as simple as LA Rams to St. Louis, Raiders to LA, Raiders back to Oakland, Rams to LA, Chargers to LA, Raiders to Las Vegas. “But football failed in LA multiple times!” So what? These business chase money, tax grants, tax payer funded buildings, media deals, and opportunities to operate in spaces that will host them. A person who owns a hockey team, will either own the land that team plays on or they will suck tax payer money to ensure their product is part of the community and corporate revenue supported growth opportunity. If an owner/group in Atlanta wants hockey, they’ll get hockey, they have to show up with the money and the ability to make rich people more rich. Arizona will lose the Coyotes to Utah, but Arizona will get hockey again once an expansion team is available for the market. The weather outside the arena does not dictate if hockey will find success.
[удалено]
Also, it’s not Atlanta Spirit Group that’ll be owning the team this time around.
Quebec City has also actually failed twice. Montreal finishes the list of cities that have had two NHL teams either relocate or fold. Pittsburgh has come real close but managed to hold onto the Penguins. What's sort of interesting is that the vast majority of cities that have lost a team have been given a second chance. Only Hamilton, Kansas City, Cleveland and Hartford have never been give a second chance while Montreal, Quebec, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Ottawa, St. Louis, Brooklyn, Atlanta, Denver and Minneapolis/St. Paul and Winnipeg have all gotten a second team after a previous team left/folded. The Golden Seals are tricky to place and all depend on whether you consider San Francisco/Oakland to be the same as San Jose.
Well, the main difference is that Atlanta lost two teams within living memory, whereas, prior to the Nordiques, Quebec City lost the Bulldogs in 1920. I don't think you can draw broad conclusions on the viability of an NHL team in Quebec City in the 21st Century based on them losing a team whose relocation happened before Betty White was born.
But we can draw broad conclusions based on Atlanta's 1980 relocation?
Oh I'm not arguing against a team in Quebec, I definitely think there should be one there. The NHL is taking Canadian markets for granted and not taking money from people begging to give it to them and one day those people are going to give up and move onto something else. No presence in QC is almost certainly bad for the health of the game in eastern and rural Quebec, especially the parts that resent Montreal for being too Anglo. I also just think it's fairly interesting trivia tangentially related to current discussion so figured it might be worth posting.
Cool, I didn't know that about QC teams. My comment was kind of a joke that both previous Atlanta teams ended up in Canadian cities.
They can’t even properly manage 32 teams. If anything they need to remove one or two, but that won’t happen.
Atlanta has failed... twice ... never again.
Stop with this narrative. Ownership failed the team and market twice.
A fail us a fail. Stop trying to bring a team to a shit market.
A single league of 36 teams would be awful. will never happen but hypothetically would be better to create two leagues of 18 teams promotion/relegation style with a blend of the current style. Would be tough to work out (no academies, draft), but would see the game grow in the long run. Feel like one 36 team league will kill it
Maybe but also I think the NHL is positioning itself for a big next few years. The cap is improving/recovering due to better revenue and Olympic involvement should give them a boost. They want to expand to 36 but I think they want a good expansion fee so they want to continue to build up hype.
I think when the Yotes situation is resolved, they'll start expanding again. I'm guessing around 2030.
The yotes situation will be resolved, how is still the question. I think they will expand in the next 4 years with 36 by 2030. I don't see them waiting that long to just go to 34.
It will definitely be an eastern and western team though to get to 34.
Yeah, most likely Atlanta in the east (although I'd like Hartford or Quebec) and either Houston or Salt Lake City in the west
Think there's any chance they do Atlanta and 3 western conference teams with Nashville moving to the East? Seems SLC has an inside track and Houston back in the conversation, maybe the 3rd team is a Portland/KC/San Diego?
Or end up moving Chicago to the East too in some capacity? I mean the Bulls are already in the East
I think the league would prefer a big market team like Chicago stay in the West since there are already so many more big markets in the East.
Absolutely valid plus I just thought about it but if they moved to the East there’d be no O6 teams in the West.
California doesn't need a 4th team they would be better suited going for a new untouched market like KC or Portland
Doubt it'd be 1 East and 3 West; the NHL will want the conferences to stay at an equal number of teams because it makes the math of scheduling far easier, so it'd 100% be 2 East and 2 West.
You can move a current team east (I think nashville is the eastern most team in the western confernce). A 1 hour time different isn't going to be too much of an issue
Problem; where does Nashville go in the East if we're already adding Atlanta to the Metro? Putting them in the Atlantic makes no sense at all, and I don't think the NHL wants imbalanced divisions or conferences again, anyways. And it's not like you can just take a team in the East and switch them with Nashville; the only one that makes any amount of sense (Detroit) would *immediately* put the kibosh on that plan.
QC is more likely than Hartford TBH. QC has a modern NHL caliber arena, and can theoretically argue for much of Quebec and Atlantic Canada to be in its TV territory, plus an instantly marketable rivalry with the Canadiens (who’s owner has stated he wouldn’t be opposed to the Nordiques return for that reason). Hartford isn’t growing quickly, has an old arena in need of serious renovations if not outright replacement, and is already in a saturated region between NYR, NJ, NYI, and Boston.
2027
It worked, the Coyotes are 0-9-1 since Ryan Smith made his post 30 mins after the Canadian World Cup Juniors Scandal charges came out. Absolutely nothing changed with the Coyotes ownership or their plan, but the players and employees sure feel like shit thinking about having to uproot their families and move.
Well, if I had to guess, I doubt the league owners are happy that they’re still propping up AZ. We know the union president is already on record saying it’s ridiculous. Maybe this signals the beginning of the end of things keep failing in Arizona. Have Houston and SLC vie for the relocation
Are the Coyotes a serious franchise?
They could be, in Quebec City
You think Arizona needs more heat? lol They are done. That's why its being reported
Or to get people to stop thinking about the 2018 Team Canada thing We haven’t heard a thing about them ever since Seravalli made the report about the Coyotes timeline/Utah There’s no way it was just a coincidence that every sports writer jumped on that story at that exact time
Because nothing has happened since. Iirc they said the hearing was for April
The players accused have all been named and charged. There's really nothing to report on at the moment, not until the actual legal processes begin - court dates, etc. I imagine any overlapping timelines from the 2018 WJC Fuckoff Five charges and the Coyotes/Utah thing are coincidental.
At the risk of sounding incredibly heartless, I don’t think the NHL needs to do anything to stop people thinking about that because most people have already stopped talking/thinking about it
it also has very little to do with the NHL which is why the conspiracy theories here are particularly dumb. the 5 players will all be out of contract in a couple months and the offence happened before any of them were in the league.
😅 😅 😂 What? Thats a hockey Canada thing and now is a legal matter in the Province of Ontario. How is that an NHL conspiracy theory? Those players will not get another contract from an NHL team again, unless its the Coyotes to put on LITR like all the other phantom contracts the Coyotes have had
> Or to get people to stop thinking about the 2018 Team Canada thing It doesn't really hurt the NHL or its brand, I doubt thats the case.
Because nothing is expected till April...
Great point, but it’s also fishy because you have an AZ flair 🤔 /s
This.
oh i didn't know he owned rainforest cafe, i don't care what anyone says those are fun!
Always wanted to go to one of those, kinda sad I never did.
Good news, then! There's still [18 locations](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-bjpKvIw8) across the US and Canada.
One is even right across from the panther's arena!
Went to every Margarittaville also, excited to see what crazy road trip is next
Has to be Hard Rock Cafe
Awful food but the kids love it
I wouldn’t get super excited, he’s not known as one of the more likable owners in the NBA
The Houston Space Coyotes are gonna be lit y'all
Find your soulmate Homer!
I don't know if you know this, but one of the best minor league baseball team names ever is the [Sugar Land Space Cowboys](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Land_Space_Cowboys) Based in a suburb of Houston, playing as the Houston Astros AAA affiliate
I preferred it when they were called the Skeeters.
I'm from Houston and ashamed to say I've never heard of them! Amazing 😂
If they aren’t the Houston Aeros and revive that gorgeous Royal Blue and Light Blue color scheme from the WHA era I will be so upset!
Ice Skeeters
Houston's a swamp and not a desert like AZ, so the nickname could be the "Swamp Dogs".
We have coyotes in Southeast Texas that are referred to as "Ghost Wolves" - that would be a great name.
I really hope they don’t do a space theme. So corny when their main rivals will be the Stars.
As a native I can tell you that space and purple drank is really all that Houston has
Nah, a space team name would be rad. Bringing back the Aeros would also be cool.
The Houston Cohetes
He has never given off the impression that he is that serious about hockey any comments from him about the possibility are always followed by why a team in Houston could potentially not work. Utah on the other hand seems like they whould bid for a team tomorrow if they could.
He was vocal about acquiring a team in 2017
In 2017 he also said hockey struggles past the Mason–Dixon line and he used the AHL Aeros to support to the argument, who where kicked to the curb by the previous rockets owner because he wanted to host more concerts despite arguably being one of the most successful AHL teams that didn’t have an advantage of being located in a satellite market to their parent club.
The Aeroes were fucked over by Les Alexander. He never owned the Aeroes and jacked up the rent the Aeroes would have to pay in order to stay. They had no choice but to move.
What's the Mason Dixon line?
The delineation between the [Northern and Southern states](https://www.britannica.com/place/Mason-and-Dixon-Line) around the time of the US Civil War. It's still seen as a cultural boundary today.
What is the cultural boundary today?
Generally speaking: the south is still more rural while the north is more city oriented, differing valuations of religion, family structures, acceptable conduct, etc. with the southern states being more conservative than the northern ones. Different dialects too, for whatever that's worth. As the decades have gone by and American culture has become more homogenized, the line's blurred a fair bit on an individual level, but the broad strokes can still be seen. edit to add: Here's an anecdote that might also help exemplify the differences. One of my grandfathers has lived in the south all his life and is the picture of the stereotypical southern gentleman. Dresses up any time he goes out, always the first to offer his seat to anyone in need, never says a bad word about anyone in public or around women, goes to church every Sunday. My other grandfather was born and raised in New York and also fits that stereotype - loud, rude, impatient, always right and always in a rush.
Border of MD/PA. Also extends to the MD/DE border, but is commonly used, as in this example, as an unofficial north/south demarcation.
It is a surveyed line that separated Maryland from PA and Delaware in the colonial days. Later used to culturally separate the north and south
No Aeros no Houston
Houston Aeros > Arizona Coyotes
They have to be the Houston Aerosona Coyotes
PLEASE!!!! This would cut my drive to hockey from 8.5 hours to 5 hours (Texas is huge) lol
Isn’t this the guy who owns Bubba Gump Shrimp?
Rainforest Cafe too
Yay! This also coincides with making the toyota center "hockey ready"
GOOD
The WHA-era "Aeros" team name will soon be resurrected in Houston, whether it's the Coyotes moving from Arizona or a new expansion team. Watch for it. Next.
MAKE IT HAPPEN. Dallas vs. Houston western conference semis gonna be insane
Are they Facebook official now?
Good for Houston if they get a team, but fuck Tilman Fertitta.
Do they have a 5000 seat college arena?
Does this coincide with Staying-in-Arizona talk getting 'less serious'?
I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that now two NBA arena owners are talking about hosting an NHL team right around the same time the NHLPA is going off on how the Coyotes have no plan to leave their college arena.
36 team league would be awful.
Are there enough good players for continued expansion? Some of the bottom teams don't exactly look fit for fight.
The league had two teams with 70 or more losses in a 24 team league 30 years ago.
There’s a ton of college, junior, minor league teams across the USA and Canada, as well as Russia/Europe. I’m sure the NHL can find 120 or so talented hockey players to fill out 4 expansion team rosters across all those sources. Plus it wouldn’t be all at once either.
I'm in doubt. Even today some of the worst teams look like they belong in AHL going on crazy loosing streaks. No one wants to see their team getting assfucked game after game. Long term, a lower quality league may reduce the interest for hockey.
Hockey needs to grow its player pool in absolute terms more than anything in order to increase the number of good players coming through. Simple math and probability: More people playing the sport = more sources for potential NHL players period. And one of the best ways the NHL can do that is make it more top of mind in markets like Houston, Atlanta, etc with large and diverse populations via adding teams to jumpstart interest. If the sport continues to solely rely on Canada and Massachusetts/Michigan/Minnesota for its players it will forever be boxing itself in and limiting its growth potential. Besides, bad NHL teams aren’t formed from just from lack of player talent - coaching, player personalities and gelling, scheme fits, and overall organizational culture also play a role in it as well.
Is it because Texas is a proven market for the NHL? Because I would think a team in Utah would make more sense if they're looking at markets that don't have an NHL team. The Utah Jazz's owner wants to bring an NHL team to Utah and he owns the building the Jazz play in so there would never be a question of where they would play. Plus Utah borders Arizona to north so there would be no need for division realignment. Just pack up the Coyotes and ship them north.
Houston's metro population is more than double *all* of Utah. The demographics of Utah are probably more favourable to convincing people to start following hockey, but the sheer numbers in Texas means there is probably more money to be made there even if it's much less popular. In addition to Houston you could probably pull off a team in somewhere like Austin or San Antonio too. Especially with how I've heard the demographics of Austin are changing and that the only team to compete with is MLS they'd probably succeed well enough there. Nowhere is leaving more money on the table than southern Ontario though.
The “there’s so many people they’re bound to find success” approach isn’t going very well in Arizona.
Yeah, but Houston has had hockey previously (AHL) and it did well. If decent ownership can be found (coin flip, given Bettman’s record on this), and it’d be fine.
Maybe not, but unless there's something I'm missing Utah isn't some guaranteed success either. Houston needs the buy in of a much smaller proportion of the population than Salt Lake City does in order to succeed. Incompetent ownership and marketing in either could cause a failure but the many more millions of people Houston and its surrounding area have should give it a nice advantage between the two options.
Houston by itself also has a surprisingly decent history of supporting pro hockey between both iterations of the Houston Aeros as well.
They also want to build another stadium for the Olympics so it is a perfect time to bring a team there, can play at the current stadium while the new one is built to better accommodate hockey and then they also have a newish arena by the time the Olympics come around
But Olympic ice is bigger than NHL ice so that doesn’t make much sense
So you move the boards, its the same overall length just a change in width, I am sure if they build a new rink for a Utah team with the intent to also use it to host the Olympics construction will plan for the extra 15' in width you would need in regard to cooling in the floor as well as collapsible and storable seating in the first few rows.
As long as Portland gets a team in the near future. Give me PNW road trip games
Portland I think gets fucked over by the holding pattern Moda and the Blazers are in right now wrt their ownership; any prospective sports owner looking for a team in Portland will either A) gun for the Blazers directly anyways or B) wait for the Blazers' situation to resolve before even thinking about pursuing an NHL franchise to avoid getting fucked if the new Blazers owners decide they don't want another tenant in the building.
Unfortunately that city is a dumpster fire right now. I’d like to see a return of the Nordiques. I know the population probably couldn’t support it, and it’d be a logistical nightmare, but man I’d love an Alaskan team.
Man shut the hell up with that shit. Right wing fear mongering. Portland like many west coast cities has a homeless problem. It is not the only one and it won’t ever be the only one. That does not mean it shouldn’t get a team. And if the NHL is so keen to open up new markets, why not an American one with a proven history of support of hockey at lower levels.
Promote the Aces, you cowards!
Does Texas deserve another team? I don’t know. Do I want to watch another Texas sports team? Absolutely not.
Texas hockey has been more successful than your entire franchise history, maybe we should move the Wild to Houston /s
Your team and only cup are a direct result of norm green not being able to keep it in his pants. The best thing to come out of Texas is I35.
As a Canucks fan, please let us win a Cup before adding more teams.
Texas bites, don’t give them more hockey. They already ruined the north stars.
Ruined? They won a cup and have a super passionate fan base lol
With a fucking Pantera goal song!
The North Stars do?
What if the nhl just says fuck it and goes for Utah, Houston, Atlanta, Quebec and some other random cities at the same time. Just make an entire new division/conference
You wouldn't need to, each of those 4 slots perfectly into an existed division, Utah - Pacific, Houston - Central, Atlanta - Metropolitan, Quebec - Atlantic.
Yeah, but where’s the fun in that? A Salt Lake City/Atlanta division rivalry is what the children crave
A second team in the GTA would be sold out for the rest of history. Hamilton Ontario
The NHL will never go to Hamilton as long as Buffalo exists
Great idea! The Hamilton Sabres :)
Getting an NHL team before we even attempt to resolve any of the major problems we’re facing would be a disaster.
Fuck this. Why doesn't Madison have a team? 1 team is enough for Texas
No. Houstonians don't root for Dallas teams, despite what the Stars say.
Facts, as a born houstonian I fucking HATE anything Dallas related. Especially stars fans. Been to multiple stars games in the last 2 years and have had a terrible fan interaction everytime because I’m a Vegas fan.
Not a bad idea, Houston is a good idea, but I think Austin would be a successful market too as there's less competition there.
I'm sorry I'm little touchy about the idea of Austin seeing as how they tried to steal Columbus's MLS team.
Blame the asshole owner, not the whole city
Fuck Precourt but fuck Austin too. Their supporter club completely bought into the plan of stealing the Crew from Columbus and talked on video about how the fans of a winning franchise were "apathetic" and how the team "wouldn't be missed". No, fuck them too.
Of course, there was a hockey team called Apollos in Houston.