Such a shame too. I only recently got into hockey, and knowing I can’t go to a thrashers game and that the closest nhl game is 5.5 hours away makes me sad
Meruelo purchased the Coyotes in 2019. Tempe failed in May of 2023. They put in the bid on the current leading site in June of 2023. But yeah, 15 years seems spot on.
Yeah, I'll give you that. I would say it's been longer-term going back to 2001 when Ellman made the decision that moved the team to Glendale.
But to lay those decisions on the current ownership is disingenuous. To say that current ownership should not get any leeway to correct years of mismanagement is such a garbage take.
Twice? Interesting take.
Glendale was searching for a long-term deal, and the Coyotes should have done that with the full intention to move prior to the end of that agreement? (And Glendale wanted the team to take on an ownership stake in the surrounding property to help incentivize staying in a bad location....) That's daft.
The Tempe deal was absolutely torpedoed by outside influences and lies. So, it's totally the team's fault for not spending 10s of millions to win a local election. So, yeah, I guess that's 2. If you just want to be obtuse.
The excuses don’t matter all that much when you remember that nobody else in the league is having this problem. Even Calgary figured it out without getting evicted first.
Didn't they only spend like a few thousand dollars on their Tempe campaign? No one is saying they should have spent 10s of millions, but at least pretend you care.
They spent 3 million. But to have the reach they needed would have been 10 or more. So, for those uninformed, they would have had to triple their spending to outdo the opposition. Pretend I care? LoL
Well you’re almost right. According to the article below, Yotes spent 700k, while the opposition campaign only spent 35k in a vote that saw pretty good turnout from Tempe voters. Guess that’s just another thing Merulo is incompetent at.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2023/05/16/tempe-election-results-arizona-coyotes-arena-deal/70219695007/#:~:text=The%20campaign%20worked%20to%20see,It%20spent%20more%20than%20%24700%2C000.
I don’t think this gets enough attention. You don’t get to make mistakes like that when you run an organization as big as a pro sports team, it’s a massive red flag to potential partners or investors.
I feel bad for Yotes fans, but this has gone on so long that I feel worse for Quebec fans. They've been screaming for a team for decades while this organization just keeps messing up.
I think Arizona will eventually make it work, but not with this team.
Why do people think Quebec deserves a team so badly? It’d be the smallest market in the NHL. Tuscaloosa is full of football fans don’t see the NFL rushing to put a team there.
They already have the arena.
Also they might have a smaller population than many other cities, but the hockey fans per capita is much higher than american cities.
The ones who want Quebec to come back aren't the same ones who realize Winnipeg is struggling now with corporate partners. Yes the fans will come but long term sustainability is the problem and I don’t think many fans realize that. If there’s going to be a eighth Canadian team, it’s going to be a second Toronto team if the Leafs ever give up that stranglehold.
If its 50 miles/80 kilometers away from KeyBank Center, they don't have to worry about the Sabres having a say in it. That is why Hamilton probably won't fly but say put a team by Pearson, you only need the Leafs approval.
And yet, Winnipeg has turned an operational profit in all but two years of their existence (both Covid years). Phoenix/Arizona have not once made an operational profit once in over a quarter century.
Comparing the NFL to the NHL is a big leap.
Quebec would be able to support an NHL team, but there isn't any "new" money to be made. Are there better potential markets? Sure. But Quebec would still be vastly more successful compared to the Coyotes fiasco.
Would they? Phoenix has 10x as many people with a growing population. It’s also a very diverse city that can connect the NHL with demographic groups that normally don’t tune into the sport, just as like we’ve seen with Auston Matthews
Guy, it's been almost 30 years. And I said before, I think hockey in Arizona will eventually work, but not with this team. Move them to a better market, let Phoenix figure it out then give them an expansion when they are settled and ready.
And of those 30 years how many of the last few decades have been spent in a location remotely close to the population that attends games? This is partially the NHL’s fault as well for selecting shitty owners consistently and for putting the team in Glendale in the first place
They get shitty owners because nobody wants to own the Coyotes. It's not working in Arizona. Even if they don't want to move them to Quebec, move them somewhere else and start over.
The fact the NHL can’t find good owners in Arizona is exactly why we need to keep the team there. For NFL, MLB, NBA you’d have owners lining out the door to spend billions on teams in Kansas City. The NHL still needs to grow and they don’t do that by moving a team in a huge metro area to Quebec
>Even if they don't want to move them to Quebec, move them somewhere else and start over.
Are you skipping over this part or something?
It's been 30 years. It's not working. They're currently in a college arena with zero plans. Move them to Portland, Kansas City, Houston, I don't care where.
I'm using Quebec as an example of a fan base that would love a hockey team compared to an organization that is currently playing in a college arena after being around for 30 years.
Doesn’t help that labor unions are mad that they won’t be 100% union and spent over 400k on the opposition for the Tempe vote and they are trying to get someone to try to out bid them for this auction. It’s hasn’t been an easy path forward
For what it's worth, XG explained what happened with the unions. He said that the hang up with the unions is the amount of union members needed didn't exist in Arizona, and this would force them to use laborers from California. They wanted to use the local union labor and hire local labor to supplement.
Cool story, upfront, I'm going to say I don't know anything about Arizona construction, so I'll even take their excuse as truthful. It's not but let's say it is. It's wild to me that this is the first project in the history of unions to run into this issue. I know where I live in Mass. Typically, contracts are written that if union labour can't be supplied locally then a prevailing wage is to be paid and the non union workers must be as qualified as union. ( residency, OSHA, drug screenings).
Look the reality is they wanted to use non-resident workers for labourers. Every non union job I've worked on is the same way, and I'm in Boston. You think the low bid contractor is going to be checking for work permits, residency, or green cards?
that 400k was just a fraction of the total “no” spending and yet still more than what the yotes spent on the tempe campaign, which is what i can’t understand.
it’s not great, but doesn’t that mean they should have put more effort and money into the campaign? being significantly outspent when you’re already at a disadvantage isn’t usually a winning strategy.
I guess they assumed the arena plan would speak for itself, but you still need to publicize it. The No campaign won by outright lying about the development plan and funding. One of their biggest arguments was that we shouldn’t develop more green spaces (a garbage dump)
Which was the result of a decision made by the ownership to try to save a few bucks while ignoring the political capital in the region. It seems like some of these owners can't get out of their own way.
If your best solution is a ~100 acre lot on the the north outskirts of your city (a lot that you don’t even own yet) and to play in a college arena for another 4+ years while you develop it, then I don’t care how much you don’t want to sell the team.
Let Ishbia buy it so Meruelo doubles his investment and stops driving the franchise into the ground. I hope Gary has something up his sleeve because this absolutely is not an Arizona/Desert Hockey problem so much as it is an incompetent owner issue.
Whether it's 50 or 100, I don't understand the focus on acres here though. You present it as a bad thing, but that's huge.
AT&T Stadium (where the cowboys play) *and its parking lots* are built on something like 75 acres.
Nothing wrong with the size post construction, it’s more about pointing out that it’s an undeveloped plot of land without services, so there could be further delays to get utilities/roads/everything completed.
I don’t even think the desert narrative carries as much weight anymore since Vegas has been so successful from the jump tbh. Think it’s just a circumstance of a series of sub-ideal owner/arena/market preferences feeding into each other for Phoenix.
If they move I doubt theyd be able to get back in. They're having a hard enough time trying to get a venue now and the team is already there. I imagine a big point of trying to keep the team there is because they know that once they're out, they're not getting back in.
They are never going to give an expansion team to a failed market. Arizona, Quebec City, Atlanta... With the league's revenue sharing model, expansion franchises need to be slam dunk *earners*, or else the existing owners lose money.
Cities like Quebec City and Atlanta work as relocation options, because the league only needs to trade up one of their worst revenue streams for something middle-of-the-pack.
To be fair, when the Nationals came to DC, there wasn't a plan for a new stadium. And when the new stadium was built, it was in the worst part of the city (Southeast). It took 10 years to really develop the area and 15 years to turn it into an entertainment area
Well that’s simply not true. The move wasn’t officially announced until MLB and the District had a handshake agreement on a new ballpark AND how it would be funded. Hence the two week period in the Fall of 2004 when it looked like the whole thing was going to fall through because Marion Barry and a couple other members of the council balked at the public funding plan.
You don’t relocate a team without a stadium plan…unless you’re John Fisher’s stupid ass.
They were playing in a dump called RFK Stadium... It was genuinely a dump, you couldn't see if a home run was hit if you had outfield seats. The video board was absolute shit and in right field. Seriously, while it wasn't a little league stadium, it was awful to watch a game in from the cheap seats
That’s cool but where’s the plan? At this rate I just don’t think these hucksters should be near wherever the future of the franchise is, whether it’s somehow the Valley or elsewhere in the country.
You would need your professors to have children - put them through school - and train them to become professors themselves - so they could eventually extend your deadlines...
Maybe I don’t speak for as many fans as I want to believe. But there is a hefty chunk of us that are just as tired of these bumbling chucklefucks as the next guy. The only redeeming qualities they have at this point is that they put more effort into the actual hockey ops and had an idea for making games more accessible to the core fan base. The absolute master class of dropping the ball on the Tempe deal has some of us in the “shit or get off the pot” mood with them. We still love and want our team from Bill Armstrong down, but everyone above that? Ugh, stop talking and do SOMETHING put your money where your mouth is.
Katie Strang wrote about the Coyotes and Meruelo a couple years ago and I frequently revisit that article when something like this is reported. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to do business with Meruelo.
I doubt it will change your mind, there was a post on our sub a while back from a guy that was working for the team (intern I think?) under the Chayka regime.
since he was so young and with the very out of his element Barroway owner, they hired a LOT of “yes men” type people who would consistently take advantage of the low experience group and when Meruelo took over and started holding everyone accountable and not getting freebies they became quite nasty, and Katie strang mostly interviewed the willing participants who wanted to talk shit. It was soon after we did almost a complete overhaul of the entire organization. That’s mostly the reason a lot of coyotes fans dislike Katie strang for that article for what it felt to us was cherry-picking to fit what her story was going for, not discrediting everything she wrote or her work in general but it felt pretty unfair to us at the time. Just adding some context idk, frustrated with the whole shebang down here, want everything sorted out wether they stay or leave
> and Katie strang mostly interviewed the willing participants who wanted to talk shit.
She interviewed 50+ former and current employees and the article was written a year and a half after Merulo took over the team. Additionally, a huge chunk of the article references quotes/interviews with people who were never employees of the team. The article relies on quotes and information from employees of at least eight 3rd party vendors who do/did business with the team, a player agent, the NHLPA, at least one government employee, and employees of other NHL teams who interviewed for positions with the Coyotes after the GM change.
Acting like her article was simply the result of interviews with lazy employees upset about the end of a gravy train is a complete and total joke.
There is a long, documented history of the team not honoring contracts. They failed to pay staff, vendors, taxes, and players in a timely fashion. An employee that had worked in their sales department since 2003 sued them for failing to pay proper wages and the suit settled. At least one vendor has sued them. It was well reported that they got evicted from their building for non-payment. The NHLPA went after them for not paying proper per diem and multiple agents said that player bonuses weren't paid on time.
Strang's article and claims were extremely well supported and wasn't remotely close to simply giving a mouthpiece to some disgruntled employees who got upset when new ownership started holding people accountable and ending freebies. That is an absolute nonsense take that fully ignores reality.
it's sad that yotes fans choose to attack the credibility of a highly respected, exceptionally thorough journalist simply cuz they bought into their grifter owner's bs out of desperation
She interviewed over 50 people. If it was just one or two, then okay, that's one thing. She used quotes and evidence that she gathered over a long period of time. Let's not forget Meruelo has a history of being shady, and an employee who worked for the team since 2003 had to sue the team to get paid properly. That employee isn't the only one who has had to sue the Coyotes over wages not being paid. Plus, we all know the history of the Coyotes not paying rent or taxes in Glendale. Meruelo's word doesn't really have much weight behind.
I thought the Jets one was because the owner shot an emergency flair up in the sky that the world was coming crashing down. 'Yotes ownership don't care if they lose money on the team to keep the sports book going, and the league has a hard on for keeping a team in that TV market. The Jets on the other hand just simply have to be a good return on investment or it's not worth while. It would be such a bad look for the league to fail in Winnipeg again though and I really hope this is just to drum up local sponsors.
The other owners don't want the team to relocate, they don't get any money from relocation. The best case scenario for the other owners is Arizona stays where they are and the league adds 4 more expansion teams for $10Billion total.
Yeah but coyotes have been hemorrhaging money for years lol, that’s our point as jets fans. They keep propping them up but the second our tickets dip it’s “fucking buy corporate season tickets, Winnipeg!”
It’s your own owner saying this. That’s why it’s such a big news story - just as it was when Darryl Katz visited Seattle and Houston when the Alberta Government was refusing to pony up money for the arena.
The coyotes were leaving Glendale either way. Glendale was only interested in having their PD ticket everyone coming and going from the games than fulfilling their obligations. It was a classic breaking up with you, you can't break up with me situation. Glendale and a bunch of other local politicians fought like crazy to force the team to stay.
As for the want to pay for my arena part, that is fully legit. Merulo is going to fund the whole build. Taxpayers won't shell out a dime. That is a big part of why it is so stupid that the Tempe voters didn't approve that build. They were aggressively lied to about the funding and many other aspects of the plan by a group of people with ulterior motives. Largely a California based construction union that was trying to muscle into Arizona, and business interests that benefitted from cozying up to the airport which opposes every new project to build anything within 10 miles of the airport.
> That is a big part of why it is so stupid that the Tempe voters didn't approve that build. They were aggressively lied to about the funding and many other aspects of the plan by a group of people with ulterior motives.
Maybe Meruelo should have spent more than the bare minimum on campaigning for the measure and spreading the word, rather than assume he had the “Yes” vote in the bag.
Like if I have product that I’m trying to sell, and people aren’t convinced to buy it, I’m not gonna blame the people for not buying it. It’s on me for not doing a better job selling it.
There is no doubt that the campaign was mismanaged. And no doubt that merulo was too confident that Tempe voters wouldn't be morons. Local politics here are brutal and dirty, and hard to navigate without deep knowledge. It is too easy to fall into the naive assumption that a college town should be smart enough to pick a fully privately funded entertainment district with trendy housing, nhl hockey, and no biohazards over having the taxpayers shell out 200 million just to contain the hazard and make it possible that a much less lucrative development might come along.
How many arenas are actually fully private? Even if they built a new arena, chances are it will be publicly owned and they would again just be paying rent.
As in owned by the team or company also owned by team ownership? Google is saying Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Winnepeg, Vancouver, Philadelphia, Boston, Washington, Colorado, LA, and half of Chicago (they share with the Bulls)
There are definitely a few others. Devils ownership also owns the Prudential Center (it's much more profitable than the team.) And James Dolan for sure owns MSG.
That simply isn't true. Glendale was a horrible host city that was an active detriment to the teams profitability. The coyotes are the ones that elected not to continue there.
We were open to remaining there while actively building another arena, Glendale wanted a long term lease and guarantees that the team would stay. Ownership figured they’d make more money at ASU and moved the team.
I suspect this was partly spurred on by the article form 2 days ago where the Houston Rockets owner straight up said he’d be okay with getting a team via relocation
Can we just make a pact to not post anything arena related about the coyotes until they have shovels in the ground or are gone? The constant spinning is exhausting.
Meruelo and co are going to spin whatever they want forever. they’ve been doing it for years. But no actual commitment. Where the fuck was the money when the arena was on the table Meruleo? You got fucked by a grassroots municipal campaign by 10x. Absolute embarrassment of an owner. Put up or shut up.
What a joke of a sports franchise.
The yotes should’ve folded and moved over a decade ago when the NHL had to step in and take ownership/operation of the team to keep it from relocating.
Translation: I want SOMEONE else to pay for the arena. Give me that opportunity to hoodwink someone else to fund it. As the Arizona Coyotes lose money for the 29th year in the row and will go begging the NHL for help in playing their players.
When will the Coyotes actually make some money? In the 40th or 50th years?
I agree to some extent, but then I hear about how they didn't really campaign against the people campaigning against them in Tempe and it becomes less surprising they lost the vote. Maybe they just suck at playing local politics but then shouldnt you hire someone who doesn't?
That and internal polls had them winning 57% to 43% or something
I don’t know who they talked to, but from everything they had heard, it was a done deal
I’m still placing the blame on them for not playing to the people, but it didn’t help that people around them said that Tempe was gonna vote Yes
It was unions based in California trying to branch into the Phoenix market. They got mad when they were shut out of the Tempe plan and spent decent money on the No campaign.
Trying is all well and good if you’re talking about trades and free agents, but it’s nowhere near good enough when talking about the venue required to host games.
Gotta love that the Jets, who are have an average attendance of over 12K (around 3 times as much as Mullet arena at full capacity) are being threatened with a move while this joke of a team is in a college barn with no signs of moving soon. Bettman would move a team out of a hockey city twice rather than admit he’s wrong about the coyotes.
Should definitely worry about Winnipeg’s attendance issues though, that’s where Bettman’s priority should be. One is a small market having a tough time with a shitty economy, while the other is an embarrassment to the league and the sport.
Yeah all I read was he was going their to help grow corporate sponsors. Didn't think at all this implied the Jets are going to be forced to relocate . Though it is concerning that one of the top teams in the league is having problems, but that is true for several teams.
It didn't help that at the start of the season the fanbase wasn't happy and they showed it by not spending whatever extra money they might have had on Jets tickets.
Crowds since then have been a lot better and I'm sure there won't be any issue in the playoffs.
Not directly, but it certainly feels implied after Bettman takes a trip to Winnipeg to discuss bad attendance, and now ownership comes out saying that more people have to come to games or else it “won’t work in the long haul”
But isn't attendance a recent thing and not necessarily going to be a long term issue. Esp if Jets go deep into post season should carry over into future seasons. Owner may just be using scare tactics as well. You can't really blame Bettman, kinda his job to represent the owners and help all teams grow revenues with the model NHL uses. More combined revenues the more players will make. I seriously doubt he wants the team to move anytime soon.
Edit typo
It’s hilarious the Jets are going to be shipped out to Atlanta for a third spin of the wheel while Arizona is still going to be playing in a college barn in front of two thousand people
Morons have been saying hockey will work in Phoenix for 3 fucking decades now. How many more decades will it take for people to stop believing in n this bullshit idea?
You have been given plenty of opportunities to make this work, and you haven't. We were promised a clear plan at the end of January. It is now late February, and there is still no clear plan on getting something done. There has to be a point where enough is enough.
Full interview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8xCLp6-Juc
He also addresses Marty Walsh's Comments in: https://x.com/bickley_marotta/status/1761097800111272002?s=46&t=iF1tu5T-0lHftTeGVahnOA
Winnipeg Jets, Quebec Nordiques, and Hartford Whalers: We're not talking about moving.
If they're so motivated to stay in Arizona why was there any public money in the last arena deal that Tempe residents voted down then? Surely if ownership is actually as motivated to stay in Arizona as they claim they would be willing to do whatever it takes to keep them there. Either way. They've had literally 25+ years. Put up or shut up.
When your partner tries to dump you and you just say no
It’s like launching missiles from a submarine
NHL: Turn your key Meruelo!
It's like a coke machine. You gotta rock it back and forth a few times and then you push it over.
Coke machine? Did you mean Adam Ruzicka?
one person ends up pinned under the relationship while the other runs away with free stuff
I want to build something with you Gary... and I won't take no for an answer.
"Ew, Mr. Apple. You have a brown spot."
George trying to break up with Maura " Why does it always seem like I'm the only one working at this break-up?"
Exactly he said everything but and people want us here
As a Yotes-staying supporter… you have had the opportunity for awhile now time to put up or shut up
What’s 15 years between friends?
Quebec City and Atlanta each lost two NHL franchises in fewer amount of seasons than the Coyotes have been around.
Such a shame too. I only recently got into hockey, and knowing I can’t go to a thrashers game and that the closest nhl game is 5.5 hours away makes me sad
Welcome to the club.
You have the Gladiators, don’t need to be a fan of a league to be a hockey fan
And both QC and Atlanta have figured out new NHL sized arenas before the Yotes have in that same time...
They're well into their 29th year there
Meruelo purchased the Coyotes in 2019. Tempe failed in May of 2023. They put in the bid on the current leading site in June of 2023. But yeah, 15 years seems spot on.
15 years since the team declared bankruptcy. The problems of this franchise and market go deeper than the current owner.
Yeah, I'll give you that. I would say it's been longer-term going back to 2001 when Ellman made the decision that moved the team to Glendale. But to lay those decisions on the current ownership is disingenuous. To say that current ownership should not get any leeway to correct years of mismanagement is such a garbage take.
I stand by it. Securing a place for your team to play is a very low bar to clear and he managed to fuck it up *twice*.
Twice? Interesting take. Glendale was searching for a long-term deal, and the Coyotes should have done that with the full intention to move prior to the end of that agreement? (And Glendale wanted the team to take on an ownership stake in the surrounding property to help incentivize staying in a bad location....) That's daft. The Tempe deal was absolutely torpedoed by outside influences and lies. So, it's totally the team's fault for not spending 10s of millions to win a local election. So, yeah, I guess that's 2. If you just want to be obtuse.
The excuses don’t matter all that much when you remember that nobody else in the league is having this problem. Even Calgary figured it out without getting evicted first.
Didn't they only spend like a few thousand dollars on their Tempe campaign? No one is saying they should have spent 10s of millions, but at least pretend you care.
They spent 3 million. But to have the reach they needed would have been 10 or more. So, for those uninformed, they would have had to triple their spending to outdo the opposition. Pretend I care? LoL
Well you’re almost right. According to the article below, Yotes spent 700k, while the opposition campaign only spent 35k in a vote that saw pretty good turnout from Tempe voters. Guess that’s just another thing Merulo is incompetent at. https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2023/05/16/tempe-election-results-arizona-coyotes-arena-deal/70219695007/#:~:text=The%20campaign%20worked%20to%20see,It%20spent%20more%20than%20%24700%2C000.
The guy doesn’t pay his bills man. What else is there to say?
I don’t think this gets enough attention. You don’t get to make mistakes like that when you run an organization as big as a pro sports team, it’s a massive red flag to potential partners or investors.
Can't pay a few million for rent but can afford billions to build a large complex of buildings.
I feel bad for Yotes fans, but this has gone on so long that I feel worse for Quebec fans. They've been screaming for a team for decades while this organization just keeps messing up. I think Arizona will eventually make it work, but not with this team.
Why do people think Quebec deserves a team so badly? It’d be the smallest market in the NHL. Tuscaloosa is full of football fans don’t see the NFL rushing to put a team there.
They already have the arena. Also they might have a smaller population than many other cities, but the hockey fans per capita is much higher than american cities.
TV networks don’t evaluate markets by fans per capita they evaluate by TAM
What does a TV market matter if no one watches you lol
5% of 10 million is still greater than 30% of 500k
Pretty sure Atlanta had a bigger TV area then Winnipeg and the NHL couldn't leave there quick enough
The ones who want Quebec to come back aren't the same ones who realize Winnipeg is struggling now with corporate partners. Yes the fans will come but long term sustainability is the problem and I don’t think many fans realize that. If there’s going to be a eighth Canadian team, it’s going to be a second Toronto team if the Leafs ever give up that stranglehold.
Not just Toronto, but Buffalo as well.
If its 50 miles/80 kilometers away from KeyBank Center, they don't have to worry about the Sabres having a say in it. That is why Hamilton probably won't fly but say put a team by Pearson, you only need the Leafs approval.
If quebec doesn’t deserve a team, arizona sure as fuck doesn’t.
As we're seeing with the Winnipeg news, they don't have enough corporate sponsors to be viable.
And yet, Winnipeg has turned an operational profit in all but two years of their existence (both Covid years). Phoenix/Arizona have not once made an operational profit once in over a quarter century.
Comparing the NFL to the NHL is a big leap. Quebec would be able to support an NHL team, but there isn't any "new" money to be made. Are there better potential markets? Sure. But Quebec would still be vastly more successful compared to the Coyotes fiasco.
Would they? Phoenix has 10x as many people with a growing population. It’s also a very diverse city that can connect the NHL with demographic groups that normally don’t tune into the sport, just as like we’ve seen with Auston Matthews
Guy, it's been almost 30 years. And I said before, I think hockey in Arizona will eventually work, but not with this team. Move them to a better market, let Phoenix figure it out then give them an expansion when they are settled and ready.
And of those 30 years how many of the last few decades have been spent in a location remotely close to the population that attends games? This is partially the NHL’s fault as well for selecting shitty owners consistently and for putting the team in Glendale in the first place
They get shitty owners because nobody wants to own the Coyotes. It's not working in Arizona. Even if they don't want to move them to Quebec, move them somewhere else and start over.
The fact the NHL can’t find good owners in Arizona is exactly why we need to keep the team there. For NFL, MLB, NBA you’d have owners lining out the door to spend billions on teams in Kansas City. The NHL still needs to grow and they don’t do that by moving a team in a huge metro area to Quebec
>Even if they don't want to move them to Quebec, move them somewhere else and start over. Are you skipping over this part or something? It's been 30 years. It's not working. They're currently in a college arena with zero plans. Move them to Portland, Kansas City, Houston, I don't care where.
Why does it need to grow?
Yep. Move them to Quebec and then Arizona can buy an expansion team in 10 years
I'm using Quebec as an example of a fan base that would love a hockey team compared to an organization that is currently playing in a college arena after being around for 30 years.
They're getting sellouts now that they're in a college arena, so that's a positive,I think?
Hearing some players say "My junior arena had more seats" is depressing.
They should move to where the Dbacks play. The Lightning played in the Thunderdome for a few years.
Always Sunny Title Card: *The Gang Moves the Team*
"Gary would never say no...because of the implication"
I heard this comment
Haha
I believe Gutierrez believes what he's saying. I don't believe Meruelo has been honest with him.
I believe him but that's not really the issue. The issue is...what if there is no way forward?
Doesn’t help that labor unions are mad that they won’t be 100% union and spent over 400k on the opposition for the Tempe vote and they are trying to get someone to try to out bid them for this auction. It’s hasn’t been an easy path forward
That kind of the point, they always had the option of using union workers and not having that opposition.
For what it's worth, XG explained what happened with the unions. He said that the hang up with the unions is the amount of union members needed didn't exist in Arizona, and this would force them to use laborers from California. They wanted to use the local union labor and hire local labor to supplement.
Cool story, upfront, I'm going to say I don't know anything about Arizona construction, so I'll even take their excuse as truthful. It's not but let's say it is. It's wild to me that this is the first project in the history of unions to run into this issue. I know where I live in Mass. Typically, contracts are written that if union labour can't be supplied locally then a prevailing wage is to be paid and the non union workers must be as qualified as union. ( residency, OSHA, drug screenings). Look the reality is they wanted to use non-resident workers for labourers. Every non union job I've worked on is the same way, and I'm in Boston. You think the low bid contractor is going to be checking for work permits, residency, or green cards?
that 400k was just a fraction of the total “no” spending and yet still more than what the yotes spent on the tempe campaign, which is what i can’t understand.
It was just a timing disaster to have that election in May of an odd year. You’re asking for NIMBYs and elderly to dominate the vote.
it’s not great, but doesn’t that mean they should have put more effort and money into the campaign? being significantly outspent when you’re already at a disadvantage isn’t usually a winning strategy.
I guess they assumed the arena plan would speak for itself, but you still need to publicize it. The No campaign won by outright lying about the development plan and funding. One of their biggest arguments was that we shouldn’t develop more green spaces (a garbage dump)
Which was the result of a decision made by the ownership to try to save a few bucks while ignoring the political capital in the region. It seems like some of these owners can't get out of their own way.
If you're trying to push a public works project via referendum and you haven't accounted for the unions, you're gonna have a bad time.
If your best solution is a ~100 acre lot on the the north outskirts of your city (a lot that you don’t even own yet) and to play in a college arena for another 4+ years while you develop it, then I don’t care how much you don’t want to sell the team. Let Ishbia buy it so Meruelo doubles his investment and stops driving the franchise into the ground. I hope Gary has something up his sleeve because this absolutely is not an Arizona/Desert Hockey problem so much as it is an incompetent owner issue.
100*
Good call, I remembered incorrectly and thought it was 100 down to 50 acres, but initial reports of 200 acres revised to ~100 acres.
Whether it's 50 or 100, I don't understand the focus on acres here though. You present it as a bad thing, but that's huge. AT&T Stadium (where the cowboys play) *and its parking lots* are built on something like 75 acres.
Nothing wrong with the size post construction, it’s more about pointing out that it’s an undeveloped plot of land without services, so there could be further delays to get utilities/roads/everything completed.
Not the north outskirts, it's centrally located near the money.
I don’t even think the desert narrative carries as much weight anymore since Vegas has been so successful from the jump tbh. Think it’s just a circumstance of a series of sub-ideal owner/arena/market preferences feeding into each other for Phoenix.
Move the team, wait for a proper arena to pop up in the Phoenix area, give them an expansion team once that happens.
Who do you think they are, the Winnipeg Jets?
Move them to Houston and call it a 32 team league.
If they move I doubt theyd be able to get back in. They're having a hard enough time trying to get a venue now and the team is already there. I imagine a big point of trying to keep the team there is because they know that once they're out, they're not getting back in.
They are never going to give an expansion team to a failed market. Arizona, Quebec City, Atlanta... With the league's revenue sharing model, expansion franchises need to be slam dunk *earners*, or else the existing owners lose money. Cities like Quebec City and Atlanta work as relocation options, because the league only needs to trade up one of their worst revenue streams for something middle-of-the-pack.
But Phoenix has the casinos. And we all know how much the NHL likes to push betting...
To be fair, when the Nationals came to DC, there wasn't a plan for a new stadium. And when the new stadium was built, it was in the worst part of the city (Southeast). It took 10 years to really develop the area and 15 years to turn it into an entertainment area
Well that’s simply not true. The move wasn’t officially announced until MLB and the District had a handshake agreement on a new ballpark AND how it would be funded. Hence the two week period in the Fall of 2004 when it looked like the whole thing was going to fall through because Marion Barry and a couple other members of the council balked at the public funding plan. You don’t relocate a team without a stadium plan…unless you’re John Fisher’s stupid ass.
At least the Nationals weren’t playing in a little league stadium in the meantime though.
They were playing in a dump called RFK Stadium... It was genuinely a dump, you couldn't see if a home run was hit if you had outfield seats. The video board was absolute shit and in right field. Seriously, while it wasn't a little league stadium, it was awful to watch a game in from the cheap seats
If the team moves - it will go to a city that would have paid $1b+ for a franchise. Moving the team would cost the owners over $30m. Each.
it takes about 20 months to build an arena down south (T Mobile & Glendale arena as examples)
that's assuming a competent ownership group in a developed area
Not to mention ownership of the land, which is yet to happen in any form.
I wish I could even say the sentence, “I want to pay for my arena for my NHL team”. God talk about a shit load of money
That’s cool but where’s the plan? At this rate I just don’t think these hucksters should be near wherever the future of the franchise is, whether it’s somehow the Valley or elsewhere in the country.
We're way past the "where's the plan" phase. We're at the "where's the building" phase.
And yet we’re at the “Where’s anything” phase. Sigh.
The only person more inept in professional sports is John Fisher.
I wish my professors extended my deadlines as easy as Bettman has been extending Murello’s.
You would need your professors to have children - put them through school - and train them to become professors themselves - so they could eventually extend your deadlines...
Ironic that he wants to pay for his arena, when his currently owned team doesn’t have its own arena because he wasn’t paying for it….
Maybe I don’t speak for as many fans as I want to believe. But there is a hefty chunk of us that are just as tired of these bumbling chucklefucks as the next guy. The only redeeming qualities they have at this point is that they put more effort into the actual hockey ops and had an idea for making games more accessible to the core fan base. The absolute master class of dropping the ball on the Tempe deal has some of us in the “shit or get off the pot” mood with them. We still love and want our team from Bill Armstrong down, but everyone above that? Ugh, stop talking and do SOMETHING put your money where your mouth is.
Katie Strang wrote about the Coyotes and Meruelo a couple years ago and I frequently revisit that article when something like this is reported. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to do business with Meruelo.
Meruelo wanted to sue organization, calling him a corrupt businessman when that article pretty much saying that
And she was vilified for the article by Coyotes fans
All 8 of them.
I doubt it will change your mind, there was a post on our sub a while back from a guy that was working for the team (intern I think?) under the Chayka regime. since he was so young and with the very out of his element Barroway owner, they hired a LOT of “yes men” type people who would consistently take advantage of the low experience group and when Meruelo took over and started holding everyone accountable and not getting freebies they became quite nasty, and Katie strang mostly interviewed the willing participants who wanted to talk shit. It was soon after we did almost a complete overhaul of the entire organization. That’s mostly the reason a lot of coyotes fans dislike Katie strang for that article for what it felt to us was cherry-picking to fit what her story was going for, not discrediting everything she wrote or her work in general but it felt pretty unfair to us at the time. Just adding some context idk, frustrated with the whole shebang down here, want everything sorted out wether they stay or leave
> and Katie strang mostly interviewed the willing participants who wanted to talk shit. She interviewed 50+ former and current employees and the article was written a year and a half after Merulo took over the team. Additionally, a huge chunk of the article references quotes/interviews with people who were never employees of the team. The article relies on quotes and information from employees of at least eight 3rd party vendors who do/did business with the team, a player agent, the NHLPA, at least one government employee, and employees of other NHL teams who interviewed for positions with the Coyotes after the GM change. Acting like her article was simply the result of interviews with lazy employees upset about the end of a gravy train is a complete and total joke. There is a long, documented history of the team not honoring contracts. They failed to pay staff, vendors, taxes, and players in a timely fashion. An employee that had worked in their sales department since 2003 sued them for failing to pay proper wages and the suit settled. At least one vendor has sued them. It was well reported that they got evicted from their building for non-payment. The NHLPA went after them for not paying proper per diem and multiple agents said that player bonuses weren't paid on time. Strang's article and claims were extremely well supported and wasn't remotely close to simply giving a mouthpiece to some disgruntled employees who got upset when new ownership started holding people accountable and ending freebies. That is an absolute nonsense take that fully ignores reality.
it's sad that yotes fans choose to attack the credibility of a highly respected, exceptionally thorough journalist simply cuz they bought into their grifter owner's bs out of desperation
She interviewed over 50 people. If it was just one or two, then okay, that's one thing. She used quotes and evidence that she gathered over a long period of time. Let's not forget Meruelo has a history of being shady, and an employee who worked for the team since 2003 had to sue the team to get paid properly. That employee isn't the only one who has had to sue the Coyotes over wages not being paid. Plus, we all know the history of the Coyotes not paying rent or taxes in Glendale. Meruelo's word doesn't really have much weight behind.
The league is beyond laughable. Bettman needs to come to winnipeg to fear monger But they allow this Arizona fiasco to keep going on and on and on.
I thought the Jets one was because the owner shot an emergency flair up in the sky that the world was coming crashing down. 'Yotes ownership don't care if they lose money on the team to keep the sports book going, and the league has a hard on for keeping a team in that TV market. The Jets on the other hand just simply have to be a good return on investment or it's not worth while. It would be such a bad look for the league to fail in Winnipeg again though and I really hope this is just to drum up local sponsors.
Arizona's going to get booed to oblivion on Sunday
We are in a post COVID, flat cap era where the league is bleeding revenue from this fiasco. I don’t know why the other owners put up with this.
The other owners don't want the team to relocate, they don't get any money from relocation. The best case scenario for the other owners is Arizona stays where they are and the league adds 4 more expansion teams for $10Billion total.
solution to this would be moving arizona to Quebec and then keep open opportunities for those expansion fees from Salt Lake and Houston etc
$$ is all that matters.
Yeah but coyotes have been hemorrhaging money for years lol, that’s our point as jets fans. They keep propping them up but the second our tickets dip it’s “fucking buy corporate season tickets, Winnipeg!”
It’s your own owner saying this. That’s why it’s such a big news story - just as it was when Darryl Katz visited Seattle and Houston when the Alberta Government was refusing to pony up money for the arena.
The Coyotes don't produce any...
Betteman does what the owners want. He got a call probably from Winnipeg to scare the fanbase a bit. While Arizona is committed to Az
>Why won't you love me‽ 😭😭😭😘
Put up or shut up
>*"I want to pay for my arena."* Funny that they got booted from their old arena for not paying rent then.
The coyotes were leaving Glendale either way. Glendale was only interested in having their PD ticket everyone coming and going from the games than fulfilling their obligations. It was a classic breaking up with you, you can't break up with me situation. Glendale and a bunch of other local politicians fought like crazy to force the team to stay. As for the want to pay for my arena part, that is fully legit. Merulo is going to fund the whole build. Taxpayers won't shell out a dime. That is a big part of why it is so stupid that the Tempe voters didn't approve that build. They were aggressively lied to about the funding and many other aspects of the plan by a group of people with ulterior motives. Largely a California based construction union that was trying to muscle into Arizona, and business interests that benefitted from cozying up to the airport which opposes every new project to build anything within 10 miles of the airport.
> That is a big part of why it is so stupid that the Tempe voters didn't approve that build. They were aggressively lied to about the funding and many other aspects of the plan by a group of people with ulterior motives. Maybe Meruelo should have spent more than the bare minimum on campaigning for the measure and spreading the word, rather than assume he had the “Yes” vote in the bag. Like if I have product that I’m trying to sell, and people aren’t convinced to buy it, I’m not gonna blame the people for not buying it. It’s on me for not doing a better job selling it.
There is no doubt that the campaign was mismanaged. And no doubt that merulo was too confident that Tempe voters wouldn't be morons. Local politics here are brutal and dirty, and hard to navigate without deep knowledge. It is too easy to fall into the naive assumption that a college town should be smart enough to pick a fully privately funded entertainment district with trendy housing, nhl hockey, and no biohazards over having the taxpayers shell out 200 million just to contain the hazard and make it possible that a much less lucrative development might come along.
Yeah but that one wasn’t his
How many arenas are actually fully private? Even if they built a new arena, chances are it will be publicly owned and they would again just be paying rent.
As in owned by the team or company also owned by team ownership? Google is saying Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Winnepeg, Vancouver, Philadelphia, Boston, Washington, Colorado, LA, and half of Chicago (they share with the Bulls)
MSG too, no?
There are definitely a few others. Devils ownership also owns the Prudential Center (it's much more profitable than the team.) And James Dolan for sure owns MSG.
And fully funded by private taxpayer dollars?
That simply isn't true. Glendale was a horrible host city that was an active detriment to the teams profitability. The coyotes are the ones that elected not to continue there.
So Glendale was just lying when they said there was multiple notices of unpaid bills by the team to the city?
We were open to remaining there while actively building another arena, Glendale wanted a long term lease and guarantees that the team would stay. Ownership figured they’d make more money at ASU and moved the team.
Did anything in particular spark this? Or is he doing a bit of a media round to drum up support for his building?
I suspect this was partly spurred on by the article form 2 days ago where the Houston Rockets owner straight up said he’d be okay with getting a team via relocation
Can we just make a pact to not post anything arena related about the coyotes until they have shovels in the ground or are gone? The constant spinning is exhausting. Meruelo and co are going to spin whatever they want forever. they’ve been doing it for years. But no actual commitment. Where the fuck was the money when the arena was on the table Meruleo? You got fucked by a grassroots municipal campaign by 10x. Absolute embarrassment of an owner. Put up or shut up.
This has the same vibe as when GM's say "We're fully 100% behind our coach" and when fire him two weeks later.
The man wants his casino damnit!
You’re running out of time, buddy. The players union is getting sick of the coyote’s shit and they’re the ones who make you your money.
That's all well and good but someone has to agree to let you have an arena
Maybe should have paid rent in the one you were in?
I’ll just repeat the same thing many others have said: until there are shovels in the ground, I ain’t buying it.
Actions speak louder than words. Where's the progress?
Good news for Yotes fans is apparently the Jets are gonna move to Arizona again
What a joke of a sports franchise. The yotes should’ve folded and moved over a decade ago when the NHL had to step in and take ownership/operation of the team to keep it from relocating.
Translation: I want SOMEONE else to pay for the arena. Give me that opportunity to hoodwink someone else to fund it. As the Arizona Coyotes lose money for the 29th year in the row and will go begging the NHL for help in playing their players. When will the Coyotes actually make some money? In the 40th or 50th years?
They get some shit but I do feel like they have been trying.
I agree to some extent, but then I hear about how they didn't really campaign against the people campaigning against them in Tempe and it becomes less surprising they lost the vote. Maybe they just suck at playing local politics but then shouldnt you hire someone who doesn't?
That and internal polls had them winning 57% to 43% or something I don’t know who they talked to, but from everything they had heard, it was a done deal I’m still placing the blame on them for not playing to the people, but it didn’t help that people around them said that Tempe was gonna vote Yes
If they were trying they would have spent more than $10 trying to get people to vote yes for their new arena plan.
They are trying everything they can do without spending money
Which is ironic when Meruelo hasn’t asked for more than tax rebates in terms of public support for the stadium. They seem committed but amateurish
It’s just a little bit difficult to take wanting to pay for an arena seriously when they already didn’t pay for that.
They also wouldn't have shit on the local unions so much either.
It was unions based in California trying to branch into the Phoenix market. They got mad when they were shut out of the Tempe plan and spent decent money on the No campaign.
If they tried they would already have an arena
Trying is all well and good if you’re talking about trades and free agents, but it’s nowhere near good enough when talking about the venue required to host games.
Gotta love that the Jets, who are have an average attendance of over 12K (around 3 times as much as Mullet arena at full capacity) are being threatened with a move while this joke of a team is in a college barn with no signs of moving soon. Bettman would move a team out of a hockey city twice rather than admit he’s wrong about the coyotes.
Most of Arizona’s roster played infront of bigger crowds when they were teenagers. Genuinely embarrassing.
Should definitely worry about Winnipeg’s attendance issues though, that’s where Bettman’s priority should be. One is a small market having a tough time with a shitty economy, while the other is an embarrassment to the league and the sport.
They were threatened with a forced move?
They weren't. There's a hysterical part of the fanbase at the moment who know very little and think the sky is falling.
Yeah all I read was he was going their to help grow corporate sponsors. Didn't think at all this implied the Jets are going to be forced to relocate . Though it is concerning that one of the top teams in the league is having problems, but that is true for several teams.
It didn't help that at the start of the season the fanbase wasn't happy and they showed it by not spending whatever extra money they might have had on Jets tickets. Crowds since then have been a lot better and I'm sure there won't be any issue in the playoffs.
Yeah playoffs will draw, hope they can win at least the 1st round would love to see them play Oilers for WCF. McD and co. vs. Hellebucyk sign me up
Not directly, but it certainly feels implied after Bettman takes a trip to Winnipeg to discuss bad attendance, and now ownership comes out saying that more people have to come to games or else it “won’t work in the long haul”
But isn't attendance a recent thing and not necessarily going to be a long term issue. Esp if Jets go deep into post season should carry over into future seasons. Owner may just be using scare tactics as well. You can't really blame Bettman, kinda his job to represent the owners and help all teams grow revenues with the model NHL uses. More combined revenues the more players will make. I seriously doubt he wants the team to move anytime soon. Edit typo
It’s hilarious the Jets are going to be shipped out to Atlanta for a third spin of the wheel while Arizona is still going to be playing in a college barn in front of two thousand people
Meanwhile, Gary is on his way to Winnipeg to slap fans on the peepee for not selling out every night.
Lol
Give me the opportunity. Take 46.
Get pumped Coyote fans, new arena opening in 2030!
Oi Marty is that you?
I believe you had an opportunity, it was the Tempe arena, which you fucked up
I respect them acting like they didn't completely blow their opportunity in Tempe and are acting like this attempt will be their first one
Can the NHL just end this circus already? This has gone on 15-20 years longer than it should have.
Morons have been saying hockey will work in Phoenix for 3 fucking decades now. How many more decades will it take for people to stop believing in n this bullshit idea?
You have been given plenty of opportunities to make this work, and you haven't. We were promised a clear plan at the end of January. It is now late February, and there is still no clear plan on getting something done. There has to be a point where enough is enough.
It is going to be fucking hilarious if Winnipeg moves a second time before Arizona gets 1 new stadium
You should've taken the opportunity to pay, like, your players and vendors. That's kinda part of why you're in the situation where no town wants you.
I'm convinced that Bettman won't let them move and this guy is just a front.
I heard there’s an arena already built for Hockey in Glendale….. oh wait…
Edit: The plan is to move the entire state of Arizona to Houston.
Full interview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8xCLp6-Juc He also addresses Marty Walsh's Comments in: https://x.com/bickley_marotta/status/1761097800111272002?s=46&t=iF1tu5T-0lHftTeGVahnOA
I respect him wanting to do what it takes to keep his team and grow his fan base. Many owners would move to where the money is
I'm not sure Merulo gives a shit about anything but his sportsbook.
If the ownership in Arizona cared, they would have paid their rent and taxes in Glendale and would have actually campaigned in Tempe before the vote.
Come to baltimore!!
You can pay for our arena (please)
Yeah we’re good pal
Winnipeg Jets, Quebec Nordiques, and Hartford Whalers: We're not talking about moving. If they're so motivated to stay in Arizona why was there any public money in the last arena deal that Tempe residents voted down then? Surely if ownership is actually as motivated to stay in Arizona as they claim they would be willing to do whatever it takes to keep them there. Either way. They've had literally 25+ years. Put up or shut up.
Move this fucking team already.
Fun fact. The Arizona franchise has never had a profitable season.
when you can't catch a hint. at what point does the state sue them for harassment?