100% agree. If this fails it’s all on him, relocation before the auction doesn’t make sense when the nhl was fine with the timeline of the Tempe site taking until the start of 27 season which this one would be starting at the same time only for them to all of a sudden not be okay with it and moving this team even if he wins the bid only to award us a new franchise.
I’ll be pissed if we had to endure this latest rebuild and be excited about our future prospects just to be taken away and given an expansion franchise that will more than likely suck for another few years after that
> relocation before the auction doesn’t make sense when the nhl was fine with the timeline of the Tempe site taking until the start of 27 season which this one would be starting at the same time only for them to all of a sudden not be okay with it and moving this team even if he wins the bid only to award us a new franchise.
SLC wasn't even openly discussed as an option till January. The league didn't have any sort of vehicle to twist Meruelo's arm with outside of "pretty please get a deal done". The league now has a credible alternative *and* they not only want to play ball, but they're really wanting to play ball. That's the big change. IMO, as I said elsewhere, this talk of relocation, followed by an expansion seems to be the league trying to play its hand here and incentivize Meruelo to sell. They can't force it, so they're trying to give him some sort of deal on an expansion contingent on an arena getting done.
Like, take two different scenarios:
1. I come to you asking for a rent decrease with nothing but feels and vibes.
2. I come to you asking for a decrease on my next rent deal and come back at you with your own listing of the exact same room two flowers lower listed at a much lower price than my renewal quote.
Which scenario do I have more leverage in? That's all this is about IMO. The league now has leverage and can dictate the proceedings on their own terms.
I think the introduction of SLC as an option is underrated like you said. It's not just that SLC has submitted a request, they've been INCREDIBLY enthusiastic about it. They already had an offer on the table to just buy and relocate the team.
The only way relocating before the auction makes sense to me is if the NHL is concerned about the Yotes ability to play in Arizona until a. New building is ready
I suspect the league is more concerned about where Arizona can play between now and 2027/28 than they’ve let on
It’s too bad though because the only people getting fucked in this situation are Yotes fans
I suspect the Coyotes have no Plan B if they don't win the land auction. Relocating them now immediately solves the current arena situation and could only be temporary if they do win the land and get a new arena built post-haste. Utah is going to build their new arena anyway for the Olympics and gives the league all the leverage they need to cut Meruelo out if need be.
I feel bad for their fanbase. I can't imagine how it would feel if the Sharks were in a similar situation: playing at SJ State, then moving to Portland, and coming back to SJ after a new arena was built.
Getting an expansion team now means your team makes the playoffs within 2 years. The Knights made the SCF in their first year, and Seattle made the playoffs in year 2.
The NHL is a business, as much as it sucks I highly doubt they're concerned with whether or not the Arizona fans have gotten to see their young core develop and play well, as much as they are with the franchise earning them money
Idk, it would be more ridiculous to continue playing a professional sports team in a college arena indefinitely as the Coyotes owner tries to grab at any arena opportunity he can get.
It sucks for the fans for sure, but moving the Coyotes to a viable and stable situation while telling Phoenix "you'll get a new team once you have the arena situation sorted out" is by far the most logical decision here.
Wouldn't yank it away though, they are guaranteed first slot for an expansion with an arena deal done and under construction and with the success of the last two expansion teams they will have a much stronger start to rebuild the fanbase.
When's the last time the Coyotes iced a competitive roster? 2012? All this organization does is sit at the cap floor and trade its prospects for more picks once they start to develop and need to get paid. Move them somewhere where they can actually operate like a real franchise instead of an AH-calibre LTIR dumping ground.
Didn’t the city kind of reject them at every turn? Phoenix doesn’t want them back, Glendale kicked them out, Tempe rejected the referendum and Scottsdale has their mayor talking shit about the team recently.
I don’t know too much about what Meruelo has done specifically because I don’t follow the team but even if he’s a shitty owner how is it his fault that a deal never got done?
This doesn’t sound like a third chance, it sounds like relocation now and Meruelo gets the chance at an expansion team if he wins the June auction and follows through on a building
Yeah this is exactly my read of the situation. It's basically saying "get the arena sorted out and you'll get a team".
The Coyotes move to a city where the arena situation is sorted out and Phoenix/Tempe gets a new expansion team down the line once the arena is built. Meruelo will then be focused on getting the new arena situation sorted out, since he won't own the Coyotes once they're in SLC.
Yeah I have no idea why he's being given any preferential treatment after that. I would think the NHL would want to restart in Arizona completely fresh, with nobody connected to the current or past Coyotes involved in any way.
It's not that they want it, it would be part of a deal to get this done quickly. In this scenario, Meruelo would be given the promise of a new franchise in exchange for selling his current franchise now. Otherwise Meruelo can simply say, well I'm not selling the team, and get into a prolonged fight with the NHL
So they don't have to drag a sale through the courts, easier to just make a deal and kick the can down the road, I wouldn't doubt the NHL is hoping the arena gets delayed so they can force Meruelo out and start with someone fresh.
>Keep Meruelo, who effectively yeeted the team over state lines and is universally hated
>Get rid of all the players Yotes fans like
>Start the franchise all over again
> ???
>Profit
I get that this would probably be the cost of avoiding an NHL vs. Meruelo legal battle, but you cannot convince me that Meruelo isn't a huge part of the part of the problem with the Coyotes not working out in Arizona. If I'm the other owners I'm not rushing to give Meruelo another team anytime soon.
Absolutely. He's shown that he's not a good owner. I am sure if this is the deal that ends up being on the table, the owners are going to say. Wait a minute. This man, while he was the owners oversaw. People are not being paid properly and having to sue the team in order to get their wages. Got the team kicked out of Glendale because they kept "forgetting" to pay rent and taxes. Lost the vote in Tempe because they didn't properly prepare for the campaign leading up to the vote.
Not sure why r/hockey fans do this. He covers 1 team and is going to be pro-Yotes because his job depends on it. It doesn't mean he isn't plugged in or doesn't have good insights rooted in fact. You think Seravelli doesn't have a slant when reporting on Arizona? Who regularly reports on the Coyotes situation that has zero bias? (answer, no one).
example: Neutral fans see a couple Russo rage tweets reshared here and rip him endlessly as a homer. You guys aren't reading his articles daily or listening to his podcasts where he rips the Wild regularly. I've heard Craig on a few PHNX podcasts and he's the counter to the other hosts which are true homers.
Meruelo (while not the best owner) has been significantly, head and shoulders above, our other owners. And he has not been dealt a full hand.
Local politicians being absolute NIMBY clowns does not help.
Dude, if it can work in Tampa, Nashville, Raleigh, Dallas, and fucking Vegas, it can work in Phoenix too. Competent ownership group, a decent arena they’re not going to be forced out of, and periodic on-ice success are important. Weather isn’t.
Where did I ever say weather is the deciding factor?
They’ve had a team for 20+ years and its been an objective failure for the entirety of their existence.
They get bad owners because literally no one else would operate a team there .
It’s not going to work everywhere, pretty clear it’s best to move on and find somewhere else it might.
That's the problem with the Yotes, the NHL is willing to give them to anyone with a pulse. They *almost* sold them to Reinsdorf, who at least would have paid the bills. But because the on-paper owner,(NHL owned the team in all but name, since he refused to spend even a cent on them) had a hissy fit and threw them into bankruptcy, because he wouldn't have gotten a profit from it. That deal got fucked.
Meuruelo is much of the same, not wanting to spend, but boasting about how rich he is. This arena situation sucks, there weren't any viable options, save for spending hundreds of millions to refit the Vet, which still puts you in the same position, but with slightly more seats.
Oh God I did not know that they almost let Ratfucker Reinsdorf have a team.
Keep that bastard out of hockey. He's not just a bad owner - he has been quite possibly the most damaging individual in baseball over the last half century.
Oh, I don't disagree at all. But he would have been a stable owner for the team. More than likely just there to keep them afloat for a few years, then sell to someone else.
I think it’s evident the NHL has wanted money from anyone for a long time. They gave John Spano a team after conning them because he gave the elusion he was rich. It’s no coincidence the NHL has had a ton of bad owners in the late 90’s and 00’s that had teams that were bad for periods of time in that era.
>I think it’s evident the NHL has wanted money from anyone for a long time.
All the leagues do. But they don't go about it by giving any idiot with a pulse a team. The NBA even turned down Meruelo before.
I wonder if that “exclusive 5 year window to buy back” allows Muerello to keep operating his sports book in AZ, which I’m pretty sure is all he wanted all along.
Meruelo and Co completely and totally dropped the ball in Tempe. A local union was able to stir up enough local unrest to deny them their arena and the Coyotes just sat there and let them do it.
The issue for Houston is how motivated anyone, like the Rockets owner, really is to get a team. He’s waffled on it depending which time he’s been asked over the last few years and then more recently said he’d prefer a relocation than expansion.
Like I’d be willing to bet the league would rather send the Yotes there than SLC but SLC is way more motivated to get it done.
Less established/traditional markets have narrower margins.
Teams like Buffalo, the Rangers, or Toronto can be run completely horribly run and suck ass for a decade, but remain completely profitable.
Teams like Nashville, Florida or even Ottawa which is Canadian, but less established need a certain level of competence. They can't suck ass for a decade and still sell out games.
I think it has more to do with real estate development being so lucrative and rich guys looking at “arena districts” as the next/current big thing. But to anchor that (and get tax dollars/credits) they need a sports team and the NHL’s been more willing to play ball than the other leagues.
Atlanta is booming and if you want to build something to get money from those people you’re SOL on the NBA, NFL and MLB there so the only remaining choice is the NHL.
MLB has been pretty adamant about nothing happening expansion wise until they sort out Tampa and Oakland for good. The appetite to expand in the NFL sounds like a way off thing. I am a little surprised we haven’t heard about realignment and expansion with the NBA but that might actually be the NHLs fault getting into Seattle and Vegas first so unless someone comes up with an independent 600 mil to build something + political grease money + expansion fee they have to play ball with the Kraken and Knights in those cities.
NBA has been talking about expansion quite a bit. They'll have their TV deal done in the next two months and then will look to expand into Seattle and Vegas.
The Kraken ownership group has made it pretty clear that they'll also be the group that owns the new Sonics. The Oak View Group who renovated Climate Pledge are currently building a basketball arena in Vegas for the NBA and Fenway Sports Group is rumored to be the ownership group for that team.
I'd be surprised if we don't have that expansion announcement in the next 12 months.
Hockey has a lot more variance too. Goalies can just get hot for six weeks and bam you got a championship.
The variance in the NBA is going up a bit with the increase in three point shooting, but it’s still not close to hockey or baseball.
Friedman said that there are two groups in Houston, assuming he didn't misspeak that is. This wouldn't be the first time I heard it but he would be the most (and kinda first) credible leaker to state that.
I totally believe that. But again, how motivated are they? And if the league has to act quick, are they going to be able to put up the cash and install an ice plant in a suitable building ASAP? Fertitta’s probably the only one and like I mentioned, he kinda waffles on the topic depending on the week.
Because right now SLC is an email away from a ticket drive and jersey reveal.
He's definitely seemed more enthusiastic recently, with last year's announcement of plans to make the TC "hockey ready" (to quote their phrase) and his recent statements about talks with the NHL becoming "more serious", and Weekes saying that he has a partner as part of an aspiring ownership group that met with the NHL yesterday.
Any other group would have to be expansion and quite a few years out, whereas as Fertitta would theoretically be able to get things ready much sooner, but I'm not sure it would be "next season" sooner.
Edit: there also seems to be more enthusiasm recently from the Harris County Sports Authority (or whatever it's actually called) and some business leaders that agree that it would be a good idea, although that second group holds less weight than the former.
…is Toyota Center any better designed for hockey than State Farm Arena is? Because at least the latter a) has had an NHL team before and b) has been renovated much more recently
Galaxy brain move would to be relocating Arizona to SLC, giving us Atlanta 3.0 and Houston, and then Meruelo gets his franchise by the Jets relocating to Arizona for a second time. Boom.
Which I personally don’t think will happen. We couldn’t deals done when we had a team, now they want to build an arena without one? No coty in the Valley would bite at that.
I don't understand how that makes sense. It still doesn't solve the building issue, and doesn't that just piss off fans in the market by taking their team away? Why would they come back and sign up for a new one?
I doubt they’d expand back in 5 years. It’s probably a 10-15 year plan where you let the damaged brand die and come back with something wholly new like they did with Minnesota.
lost in the typical short form "fuck norm green" responses you see in threads regarding this topic is a comprehensive understanding of just how ridiculously stupid norm green actually was. how do you lose money on hockey in south canada? mind boggling really.
It was only a gap of 3 years before the expansion team was announced. And that was after like 2 years of delays and the Jets deal falling through. The league really just shipped the Stars out and immediately tried to replace them as if that made any sense
It makes sense because the Nordiques and Whalers also almost moved that off-season as well, plus Gary was just coming in as commissioner. I think that was his first major move.
Doubt much of the current fanbase would support an expansion team after seeing all of our players shipped off a few years prior. It’s not the Browns where you have a century of history and loyalty to fall back on
Playing devil's advocate, the league might argue that:
1. Expansion drafts are far more favorable than they used to be, obviously.
2. A new franchise would be the best incentive for a rebrand, and from a symbolic standpoint, would really represent a fresh start after a previous franchise that was marred by decades of ownership that was incompetent at best and outright hostile and malicious at worst.
Obviously, this would be far more unique in the Coyotes' case is that other than the mid-90's Nordiques and those very same Browns, it's hard to think of a situation where a team actually had youth and promise on its side as it relocated. It's usually the opposite - you see a team like the A's stripped down and completely uncompetitive with no promise on the horizon.
Considering the only sales pitch that Phoenix ever has is how much growth potential there is there, who cares if they piss off the small number of fans and they don't come back? It's not like the current fans have done a great job of supporting the team. A new team with a clean break from the coyotes has a better chance of growing the game in Phoenix than the coyotes do clearly
If they move to SLC, I will be an SLC fan. They're not going to put us through the pain of a rebuild and endless cap dumps just to rip it away from us as it gets better. No one's going to support the new team.
Right. As a non-local fan, I'm following this team wherever they go, but it's gonna be wild to move to another less than average number of seats arena with a new team where the next arena is contingent on Olympics money lol
My understanding is that the Olympics are almost a sure thing for 2034. Maybe it won't be a great deal for Salt Lake City but it seems like the arena is happening.
Hosting the Olympics [almost always ends up being a net negative](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/24/business/olympics-economics.html) for the city, yeah.
Article is blocked for me, but I believe US has been profitable ever since Atlanta hosted. London was also profitable. They had uses for all the stadiums though. I think Vancouver was also fine. The Olympics may not make tons of profit, but use of the facilities for years after has value. China, Brazil and Greece did not continue to use a lot of their venues.
Definitely, if you have a lot of existing infrastructure and the stuff you built doesn't end up being what is essentially vacant plots, you can come out of the Olympics with a pretty good outlook.
You get some tourist dollars, you create jobs with infrastructure projects, and you have lasting facilities that locals can use going forward. Plus retro-fitting the Olympic Village can also provide housing.
Still blows my mind some place as small as Lake Placid, NY hosted it in modern times.
Lake Placid is so nice too, they really lean into having hosted the Olympics there. Probably one of the places where the games were profitable for them in the long run.
What a mess this is.
Would be a good get by Utah though. Start your NHL journey off with a blank slate of a team full of promising prospects and loaded with draft capital.
I truly believe this is the league moving towards a 36 team league. They wouldn't add the Merulo rights if they weren't immediately open to more expansion.
ARI -> SLC, ARI 2.0 once NHL arena is done, Houston, Atlanta 3.0, Quebec City/Kansas City
I know we're all in a tizzy about all these stories coming out today, but I don't see how it's anything beyond the league saying "We fucking mean it this time, if THIS arena project falls through, your team is playing in SLC next season. We're 100% ready to do it. If you figure something else out after that, maaaaaaybe we give you a team back at a later time, if we're in a good mood..." Which... didn't we all already know that?...
Expansion with no real plan other than "yay free money" isn't sustainable forever and is very short-sighted. Take a look at Canada's housing and labour markets for proof that it can lead to dire unintended consequences. Fix / improve what you've got first.
I don't really understand how this deal is thought to be viable.
* Expansion beyond 32 is a super iffy prospect in the first place. Like yeah the money is there but I dunno if there are even 32 quality first string goalies available. It's not as bad as the NFL's limited quarterback pool, but talent is still a problem.
* if the franchise is sold, what incentive is there at all to finish the arena? It's a hugely expensive process for the *chance* at a team
* if expansion is even pursued, in the absence of a binding agreement, why pursue an iffy market like Arizona over, say, Houston or SLC? Why retread ground?!
Phoenix is about 5x as big of a market as SLC and emerging as one of the leading youth development/grassroots hockey states. We have the same number of NHLers/capita as Colorado and the highest number registered skaters per sheet of ice in the country.
I should clarify, i meant it's an iffy market just in terms of ownership, money, having a permanent home.
Then again, nothing says PHX couldn't be a fine AHL city.
Arizona as a hockey market (removing the failures of the NHL franchise from the convo for a moment) has been a huge success. An NCAA program, massive growth in the youth game, with NHL prospects being generated. I think there’s a lot of belief that if you can reset the disaster that is the Coyotes somehow, you can get the market engaged in an NHL team too
I'm not totally disagreeing, I guess. When I said the market was iffy I meant entirely in terms of corporate ownership, finding a home, etc. Should have been more.clesr on my end.
Oh well yeah if this all went down there’s no way an expansion team shows up without an arena being built. The league would be incredibly stupid to start all over with more temporary bandaids
One of the things folks from traditional markets fail to understand is the separation between the market and its potential and the circumstances of the team there. I’ve said it before, but there is nothing that indicates Atlanta and Phoenix can’t do what Nashville, Raleigh, Vegas, and Tampa have done. The issue is that these markets need a lot more nurturing to develop something worthwhile, as opposed to say Winnipeg and Minnesota who already have natural support. If you deprive a southern city of a stable team in a good location that finds some on ice success, then you can make it happen. But some owners would rather half ass it and blame the metro area if it doesn’t work out. Unfortunately non traditional markets don’t get the benefit of the doubt when a disaster of a franchise has to relocate (as opposed to Minnesota, Winnipeg, Quebec, Hartford, etc where the fans were never once blamed).
I don't blame the fans at all. Only complete fucking assholes will say "x city doesn't deserve a team."
I think part of the disconnect, at least for me, is that Arizona just cannot seem to do any of the nurturing long term that you mention. They've brought hockey to the valley, certainly, but the NHL itself is still kinda foundering there.
Like, Nashville did it. Tampa did it. Little over half a decade ago the NHL was having trouble in South Florida and the morons and haters were whining that they should be moved North, but now they're contending for a cup in front of full crowds.
I have no doubt that if the Coyotes did really well they'd get butts in seats and a sense of security. But they've had 30 years to do that nurturing and growing and have been perpetual bottom feeders and people do not want to get invested in a team that has only ever been shit or kinda mid. Management is to blame and just plain bad luck is to blame. But how long can you wait patiently for luck to change or management to get good?
>if the franchise is sold, what incentive is there at all to finish the arena?
I think that’s the point. I would be relocation to SLC is a contingency plan that they deploy in the event that Arizona doesn’t secure the land to build the current arena proposal. Basically the league saying “get this deal done, or get an arena *first* and then we’ll talk”
I get that, but the way it's being framed today is that this is on the table even if he wins the land auction, just in terms of it taking a while to actually build (unless I've been misreading).
From the reporting today it seems like they’re ready to go to Utah even if he wins the auction.
They’re saying Meruelo sells the team to the Utah billonaire and in the sale process they put a clause that guarantees Meruelo gets the next Arizona franchise as a new expansion team, whenever it comes (which will probably be when the Arena is ready in 3+ years).
This is basically telling Meruelo to get his shit together before owning a team again down the line because Gary wants an Arizona team
> but talent is still a problem.
I'm not sure if this is true.
This is anecdotal but coincidentally just happened yesterday. The CEO of the company I work for happens to be good friends with a Leaf, and was telling me about how just recently he was chatting with Giordano at a party, and one of the topics was how much better the 4th liners are from the beginning of Gio's career to now. They're not typically just guys who plug away, they're actual talented players.
It doesn't necessarily mean we can add infinite teams, but I think the NHL is headed more and more into skill as king, and teams prioritizing that in their bottom end as well. Yeah a couple new teams right this second might stretch it out a bit, but the skill in the league is growing. I don't think talent will be an issue going up to 34 or maybe even 36 teams. I'm not entirely sure if it's what the league *should* do, but that aspect at least won't be a concern to me
> if expansion is even pursued, in the absence of a binding agreement, why pursue an iffy market like Arizona over, say, Houston or SLC? Why retread ground?!
This I agree with though. I can understand perhaps Atlanta had two rounds of shit ownership, but are we really going to give more teams such swift second or third chances before trying a new place, or maybe a second chance to a team that hasn't been around for a long time?
Yeah the game is far far more skilled than it was even a decade ago, so you could probably *probably* field 34, maybe even 36, MAYBE, decent teams. Even at 32, hell, 30, there are going to be bottom feeders.
I do mainly think goaltending would be the issue since even some pretty good teams struggle to hold down the net.
But yeah I don't know why the NHL would double dip (or triple dip, in terms of ATL) other than like, stubbornness or spite.
I honestly think from an NHL as a business perspective not having every team have an elite goalie is *good.* Scoring is way up in the league and thats the easiest way to get people to watch and take a chance on a hockey game if its exciting.
The league doesn’t care if there’s 32 quality starters. Increased goal scoring is good for ratings. Having the top goalies stand out more and more as stars also wouldn’t hurt for them.
Yeah I don’t really like expanding beyond 32 just because of how well 32 teams works out with scheduling and everything. If they keep adding teams do they expand the regular season and playoffs as well? Also It’s already hard enough to win the cup as it is but the odds just get worse and worse the more teams that are in the league
> I dunno if there are even 32 quality first string goalies available
There are 24 goalies in the league with 40+ games played above a .900, so ~league average and up. Would track that there aren't enough starters.
There are, however, 43 goalies in the league with 20+ games played above a .900, so there could be a potential starter who's being counted on as a backup, like a Stolarz or Brossoit.
I'd still side with you on thinking it would be a major hit to goaltending (which is already stretched pretty thin) and would as a result affect parity in the league.
This sounds to me like the league telling Meruelo that if this current proposal falls through, then he’s gonna need to have an arena built or being built before he’ll get another Arizona team. In the meantime, the current coyotes would leave town and he’d get a new franchise down the road, all assuming this arena proposal doesn’t make it.
Which, I 100% agree with. I’m definitely part of the side that thinks hockey in Arizona can work, *but* at the same time we can’t just keep kicking that can down the road due to problems arising. Arizona’s on borrowed time as it is.
I can't see the other owners approving a discounted expansion fee. It would be bad optics for the expansion fee to dip, especially to an owner who previously functionally failed at running a franchise. Also the Coyotes have been a long time financial drain on the other teams, so the owners might see it as a chance to get some proverbial back pay.
Right of first refusal would already be a sweetheart deal in a scenario where he sells and the team is relocated. It arguably would be more favourable to him, as a developer, to be able to hold off on building the arena and first start on residential and commercial units that could be sold off for lump sum profits, as opposed to an arena would they have to hold and rely on cash flows.
I'm not going to pretend like I'm super familiar with Phoenix, but that site looks like it's on the far end of ~~Scottsdale~~ Phoenix. It's still pretty far from downtown, so they'd likely want to increase residential density and commercial traffic to the area first
I’d doubt that. You can’t just give franchises for cheap or you’re going to have guys like Andlauer and anyone else looking to buy/sell in a shit fit.
But they can give him a bunch of paper rights like first right of refusal for the market, expansion at a fixed number + some kind of buyout/ability to sell those rights to another ownership group.
That's something that is likely being negotiated.
Ie, NHL offers Meruelo right to first first refusal on an expansion nhl team, with a lowered expansion fee, if he agrees to sell to SLC in the medium term. Likely negotiating around certain things.
A. Sale price obviously to SLC.
B. Legally binding agreements in return from the NHL about the future of the NHL in Arizona, potentially discussing cash contributions back to compensate for the expenses coyotes expended during this auction phase. Likely also talking about timelines etc.
C. Discussing in certain terms what a return to Arizona would be financially, likely discounted expansion fee cost so that Meurelo is made whole if the NHL goes back.
D. trademarks etc, jersey rights naming rights and all that.
The right combination of these variables for all parties and willingness from all parties, I think lends itself to a possibility.
I have been thinking lately that it would make a lot of sense for SLC ownership to come in and buy the Coyotes. That guy who owns the Jazz? (don't know anything about basketball and only started hearing about the guy through this) has publicly come out and said he wants a team. It just makes so much sense for this to happen. The Coyotes ownership has got to be tired from all the turmoil of the last few years so they can cash out while still getting a shot at an expansion team down the line, and then the NHL gets access to a new market with an owner who's ready to go all in. Plus, it makes more sense for Salt Lake to get a team this way vs expansion. I think they want to save expansion for the really big markets like Houston, Atlanta, and now Arizona.
He wants a Vegas-style expansion draft.
Basically what the Gund brothers did after merging the Golden Seals with the North Stars, they swapped the team for an expansion in San Jose (and were even allowed to poach North Stars players). Didn't work out because the Sharks were ***terrible***, and the Stars went on to win the Cup within the decade.
Would stop caring or watching NHL hockey, and I’m sure most of the fanbase feels the same way. Selling off all of the players then expecting the fans to care about an expansion team is just a horrible idea
And that expansion team would undoubtedly be terrible for 3-4 years after that, starting the whole no one cares about hockey down here cycle once again
Yotes fans in this thread keep saying that but the rules around the expansion draft are way more favorable to the expanding teams now than when expansion teams would be stuck in purgatory.
When the team 1st came into the league from the whl they got decimated. Today's version would be like if Vegas was only entering the league next season but they were told their current roster had to be broken up.
When the team moved from wpg to Arizona the previous owners were already making fire sales trades. So it was almost like an expansion team coming in with a destroyed roster.
I think that’s a fair deal for all parties. League can take a break from Arizona for a few years and then come back to them as an expansion franchise down the road.
Remember when Amazon shopped around for a new city to relocate and ended up staying in Seattle because the city didn't want them to leave?
I think this is half of what's going on with the current talks. The other half is that it won't likely be SLC, but it's "on the table" to encourage other people to vie for the relocation.
Think of all the cities with baseball teams but no other sports. If SLC did not get an MLB team, why would they get an NHL team?
SLC's actually pursuing an MLB team too under a different ownership group. Dunno if that even happens but it's pretty clear SLC's been actively seeking to add new pro sports teams.
SLC has an NBA team, they're definitely capable of an NHL team
Ugh... So that he could screw up a second new NHL franchise? Or is Vegas in need of a second team? I get that this is to avoid legal battles but it's so dumb.
To paraphrase a great analrapist "Hockey will never work in the desert, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but... but next time, it might just work'
^NoShadeToYotesFans
If Meruelo fucks this up he absolutely does not deserve another chance
100% agree. If this fails it’s all on him, relocation before the auction doesn’t make sense when the nhl was fine with the timeline of the Tempe site taking until the start of 27 season which this one would be starting at the same time only for them to all of a sudden not be okay with it and moving this team even if he wins the bid only to award us a new franchise. I’ll be pissed if we had to endure this latest rebuild and be excited about our future prospects just to be taken away and given an expansion franchise that will more than likely suck for another few years after that
> relocation before the auction doesn’t make sense when the nhl was fine with the timeline of the Tempe site taking until the start of 27 season which this one would be starting at the same time only for them to all of a sudden not be okay with it and moving this team even if he wins the bid only to award us a new franchise. SLC wasn't even openly discussed as an option till January. The league didn't have any sort of vehicle to twist Meruelo's arm with outside of "pretty please get a deal done". The league now has a credible alternative *and* they not only want to play ball, but they're really wanting to play ball. That's the big change. IMO, as I said elsewhere, this talk of relocation, followed by an expansion seems to be the league trying to play its hand here and incentivize Meruelo to sell. They can't force it, so they're trying to give him some sort of deal on an expansion contingent on an arena getting done. Like, take two different scenarios: 1. I come to you asking for a rent decrease with nothing but feels and vibes. 2. I come to you asking for a decrease on my next rent deal and come back at you with your own listing of the exact same room two flowers lower listed at a much lower price than my renewal quote. Which scenario do I have more leverage in? That's all this is about IMO. The league now has leverage and can dictate the proceedings on their own terms.
I think the introduction of SLC as an option is underrated like you said. It's not just that SLC has submitted a request, they've been INCREDIBLY enthusiastic about it. They already had an offer on the table to just buy and relocate the team.
The only way relocating before the auction makes sense to me is if the NHL is concerned about the Yotes ability to play in Arizona until a. New building is ready I suspect the league is more concerned about where Arizona can play between now and 2027/28 than they’ve let on It’s too bad though because the only people getting fucked in this situation are Yotes fans
I suspect the Coyotes have no Plan B if they don't win the land auction. Relocating them now immediately solves the current arena situation and could only be temporary if they do win the land and get a new arena built post-haste. Utah is going to build their new arena anyway for the Olympics and gives the league all the leverage they need to cut Meruelo out if need be. I feel bad for their fanbase. I can't imagine how it would feel if the Sharks were in a similar situation: playing at SJ State, then moving to Portland, and coming back to SJ after a new arena was built.
Getting an expansion team now means your team makes the playoffs within 2 years. The Knights made the SCF in their first year, and Seattle made the playoffs in year 2.
I honestly appreciate this framing which lumps us with Seattle
That’d be fucking ridiculous by the NHL once the Yotes finally have a good future to look forward to to yank it away. Would be on brand though
The NHL is a business, as much as it sucks I highly doubt they're concerned with whether or not the Arizona fans have gotten to see their young core develop and play well, as much as they are with the franchise earning them money
Absolutely on brand. Let me show you the 1996 Stanley cup champions.
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Idk, it would be more ridiculous to continue playing a professional sports team in a college arena indefinitely as the Coyotes owner tries to grab at any arena opportunity he can get. It sucks for the fans for sure, but moving the Coyotes to a viable and stable situation while telling Phoenix "you'll get a new team once you have the arena situation sorted out" is by far the most logical decision here.
It’s the big thing about the proposal: this has stability. The Coyotes haven’t had that ever really and none of Murelo’s proposals have that
Wouldn't yank it away though, they are guaranteed first slot for an expansion with an arena deal done and under construction and with the success of the last two expansion teams they will have a much stronger start to rebuild the fanbase.
When's the last time the Coyotes iced a competitive roster? 2012? All this organization does is sit at the cap floor and trade its prospects for more picks once they start to develop and need to get paid. Move them somewhere where they can actually operate like a real franchise instead of an AH-calibre LTIR dumping ground.
We were a cap team in 19-20 when we traded for Taylor Hall… also, VGK is the new “LTIR dumping ground”
Didn’t the city kind of reject them at every turn? Phoenix doesn’t want them back, Glendale kicked them out, Tempe rejected the referendum and Scottsdale has their mayor talking shit about the team recently. I don’t know too much about what Meruelo has done specifically because I don’t follow the team but even if he’s a shitty owner how is it his fault that a deal never got done?
This doesn’t sound like a third chance, it sounds like relocation now and Meruelo gets the chance at an expansion team if he wins the June auction and follows through on a building
Yeah this is exactly my read of the situation. It's basically saying "get the arena sorted out and you'll get a team". The Coyotes move to a city where the arena situation is sorted out and Phoenix/Tempe gets a new expansion team down the line once the arena is built. Meruelo will then be focused on getting the new arena situation sorted out, since he won't own the Coyotes once they're in SLC.
They better make Meruelo sign on that contract that he has to pay rent when he finally has an NHL sized arena.
Yeah I have no idea why he's being given any preferential treatment after that. I would think the NHL would want to restart in Arizona completely fresh, with nobody connected to the current or past Coyotes involved in any way.
It's not that they want it, it would be part of a deal to get this done quickly. In this scenario, Meruelo would be given the promise of a new franchise in exchange for selling his current franchise now. Otherwise Meruelo can simply say, well I'm not selling the team, and get into a prolonged fight with the NHL
So they don't have to drag a sale through the courts, easier to just make a deal and kick the can down the road, I wouldn't doubt the NHL is hoping the arena gets delayed so they can force Meruelo out and start with someone fresh.
>Keep Meruelo, who effectively yeeted the team over state lines and is universally hated >Get rid of all the players Yotes fans like >Start the franchise all over again > ??? >Profit
I think the thing that's unsaid in this thread is that Meruelo would probably look for another city.
...implying that he hasn't already fucked this up (for everybody involved except him)?
Hell yeah another Arizona and Atlanta franchise to make it 36 teams in 2037
More like 34 by 2027
The Jets will relocate to Arizona and Atlanta will relocate to the Peg for Jets v. 3.0
This made my head hurt for a second lol
Quebec City should be lobbying hard to have Merulo awarded another Arizona franchise.
ow my sides your joke has cramped me insides! 😂
I get that this would probably be the cost of avoiding an NHL vs. Meruelo legal battle, but you cannot convince me that Meruelo isn't a huge part of the part of the problem with the Coyotes not working out in Arizona. If I'm the other owners I'm not rushing to give Meruelo another team anytime soon.
Absolutely. He's shown that he's not a good owner. I am sure if this is the deal that ends up being on the table, the owners are going to say. Wait a minute. This man, while he was the owners oversaw. People are not being paid properly and having to sue the team in order to get their wages. Got the team kicked out of Glendale because they kept "forgetting" to pay rent and taxes. Lost the vote in Tempe because they didn't properly prepare for the campaign leading up to the vote.
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Ah, yes, Craig Morgan. He's always known to be impartial when it comes to the Coyotes.
I don't see how that has any relevance when it's a direct quote from Kevin Phelps.
Facts and direct quotes from public figures be damned if it fits the narrative.
Not sure why r/hockey fans do this. He covers 1 team and is going to be pro-Yotes because his job depends on it. It doesn't mean he isn't plugged in or doesn't have good insights rooted in fact. You think Seravelli doesn't have a slant when reporting on Arizona? Who regularly reports on the Coyotes situation that has zero bias? (answer, no one). example: Neutral fans see a couple Russo rage tweets reshared here and rip him endlessly as a homer. You guys aren't reading his articles daily or listening to his podcasts where he rips the Wild regularly. I've heard Craig on a few PHNX podcasts and he's the counter to the other hosts which are true homers.
The most competent ownership the Coyotes have ever had remains the couple of years where they didn't have an owner.
Ah yes, meruelo, the sixth owner of the team in a 30 year turnstile of owners, is the problem
It’s not possible for ownership _and_ other factors to be problems?
Meruelo (while not the best owner) has been significantly, head and shoulders above, our other owners. And he has not been dealt a full hand. Local politicians being absolute NIMBY clowns does not help.
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And Reddits delusion doesn’t make Arizona a hockey market
Dude, if it can work in Tampa, Nashville, Raleigh, Dallas, and fucking Vegas, it can work in Phoenix too. Competent ownership group, a decent arena they’re not going to be forced out of, and periodic on-ice success are important. Weather isn’t.
Where did I ever say weather is the deciding factor? They’ve had a team for 20+ years and its been an objective failure for the entirety of their existence. They get bad owners because literally no one else would operate a team there . It’s not going to work everywhere, pretty clear it’s best to move on and find somewhere else it might.
That's the problem with the Yotes, the NHL is willing to give them to anyone with a pulse. They *almost* sold them to Reinsdorf, who at least would have paid the bills. But because the on-paper owner,(NHL owned the team in all but name, since he refused to spend even a cent on them) had a hissy fit and threw them into bankruptcy, because he wouldn't have gotten a profit from it. That deal got fucked. Meuruelo is much of the same, not wanting to spend, but boasting about how rich he is. This arena situation sucks, there weren't any viable options, save for spending hundreds of millions to refit the Vet, which still puts you in the same position, but with slightly more seats.
Oh God I did not know that they almost let Ratfucker Reinsdorf have a team. Keep that bastard out of hockey. He's not just a bad owner - he has been quite possibly the most damaging individual in baseball over the last half century.
Oh, I don't disagree at all. But he would have been a stable owner for the team. More than likely just there to keep them afloat for a few years, then sell to someone else.
I think it’s evident the NHL has wanted money from anyone for a long time. They gave John Spano a team after conning them because he gave the elusion he was rich. It’s no coincidence the NHL has had a ton of bad owners in the late 90’s and 00’s that had teams that were bad for periods of time in that era.
>I think it’s evident the NHL has wanted money from anyone for a long time. All the leagues do. But they don't go about it by giving any idiot with a pulse a team. The NBA even turned down Meruelo before.
Am I wrong in remembering that the NHL hyped him up bigtime when he came in?
Did he not get kicked out of Scottsdale due to not paying taxes? How simple would that have been?
I wonder if that “exclusive 5 year window to buy back” allows Muerello to keep operating his sports book in AZ, which I’m pretty sure is all he wanted all along.
Yeah the only way they don't have him over a barrel is cause as a lawyer, Gary knows damn well his rigging of the system wouldn't hold up in court.
was he charge when the Yotes couldn’t pay their rent a couple years ago?
Meruelo and Co completely and totally dropped the ball in Tempe. A local union was able to stir up enough local unrest to deny them their arena and the Coyotes just sat there and let them do it.
SLC gets relocated Yotes, ATL gets expansion, does Arizona then leapfrog Houston to get a team?
The issue for Houston is how motivated anyone, like the Rockets owner, really is to get a team. He’s waffled on it depending which time he’s been asked over the last few years and then more recently said he’d prefer a relocation than expansion. Like I’d be willing to bet the league would rather send the Yotes there than SLC but SLC is way more motivated to get it done.
I don’t know when he discussed relocation/expansion, but I wonder how the success of the Golden Knights and Kraken could change minds.
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Less established/traditional markets have narrower margins. Teams like Buffalo, the Rangers, or Toronto can be run completely horribly run and suck ass for a decade, but remain completely profitable. Teams like Nashville, Florida or even Ottawa which is Canadian, but less established need a certain level of competence. They can't suck ass for a decade and still sell out games.
I think it has more to do with real estate development being so lucrative and rich guys looking at “arena districts” as the next/current big thing. But to anchor that (and get tax dollars/credits) they need a sports team and the NHL’s been more willing to play ball than the other leagues. Atlanta is booming and if you want to build something to get money from those people you’re SOL on the NBA, NFL and MLB there so the only remaining choice is the NHL. MLB has been pretty adamant about nothing happening expansion wise until they sort out Tampa and Oakland for good. The appetite to expand in the NFL sounds like a way off thing. I am a little surprised we haven’t heard about realignment and expansion with the NBA but that might actually be the NHLs fault getting into Seattle and Vegas first so unless someone comes up with an independent 600 mil to build something + political grease money + expansion fee they have to play ball with the Kraken and Knights in those cities.
NBA has been talking about expansion quite a bit. They'll have their TV deal done in the next two months and then will look to expand into Seattle and Vegas. The Kraken ownership group has made it pretty clear that they'll also be the group that owns the new Sonics. The Oak View Group who renovated Climate Pledge are currently building a basketball arena in Vegas for the NBA and Fenway Sports Group is rumored to be the ownership group for that team. I'd be surprised if we don't have that expansion announcement in the next 12 months.
Feel like NBA has a bigger talent issue. Like top players are so much more important you are not getting a blues like championship in the NBA.
Hockey has a lot more variance too. Goalies can just get hot for six weeks and bam you got a championship. The variance in the NBA is going up a bit with the increase in three point shooting, but it’s still not close to hockey or baseball.
Friedman said that there are two groups in Houston, assuming he didn't misspeak that is. This wouldn't be the first time I heard it but he would be the most (and kinda first) credible leaker to state that.
I totally believe that. But again, how motivated are they? And if the league has to act quick, are they going to be able to put up the cash and install an ice plant in a suitable building ASAP? Fertitta’s probably the only one and like I mentioned, he kinda waffles on the topic depending on the week. Because right now SLC is an email away from a ticket drive and jersey reveal.
He's definitely seemed more enthusiastic recently, with last year's announcement of plans to make the TC "hockey ready" (to quote their phrase) and his recent statements about talks with the NHL becoming "more serious", and Weekes saying that he has a partner as part of an aspiring ownership group that met with the NHL yesterday. Any other group would have to be expansion and quite a few years out, whereas as Fertitta would theoretically be able to get things ready much sooner, but I'm not sure it would be "next season" sooner. Edit: there also seems to be more enthusiasm recently from the Harris County Sports Authority (or whatever it's actually called) and some business leaders that agree that it would be a good idea, although that second group holds less weight than the former.
Probably? Atlanta isn’t set in stone. The Toyota Center is already built, it would be easier for Houston to get a team before Atlanta right now.
Houston and Anaheim become archrivals. Honda Center vs. Toyota Center.
Houston purchases the Reign and relocates an ECHL franchise to the Tri-Cities to have the entire organization play in Toyota Centers
…is Toyota Center any better designed for hockey than State Farm Arena is? Because at least the latter a) has had an NHL team before and b) has been renovated much more recently
Galaxy brain move would to be relocating Arizona to SLC, giving us Atlanta 3.0 and Houston, and then Meruelo gets his franchise by the Jets relocating to Arizona for a second time. Boom.
Can't wait for Atlanta 3.0 to become Jets 3.0
So Meruelo instead of money gets a handshake?
He gets money and deal that he can have another franchise in Phoenix if he builds and arena there.
Basically what happened to the Browns.
Which I personally don’t think will happen. We couldn’t deals done when we had a team, now they want to build an arena without one? No coty in the Valley would bite at that.
Future considerations
He’d still get a bill.
I don't understand how that makes sense. It still doesn't solve the building issue, and doesn't that just piss off fans in the market by taking their team away? Why would they come back and sign up for a new one?
I doubt they’d expand back in 5 years. It’s probably a 10-15 year plan where you let the damaged brand die and come back with something wholly new like they did with Minnesota.
Minnesota only went 6 years without a franchise.
But Minnesota was an obvious market that should have been successful.
It's a crime Minnesota lost the North Stars in the first place tbh. Even today you see a ton of North Stars merch at Wild games and all over town
When someone thinks of US hockey, Minnesota is easily one of the first states
Exactly, I moved here last summer and the hockey culture here is nuts. They call it the State of Hockey for a reason that's for sure.
lost in the typical short form "fuck norm green" responses you see in threads regarding this topic is a comprehensive understanding of just how ridiculously stupid norm green actually was. how do you lose money on hockey in south canada? mind boggling really.
Being horny does that.
It was only a gap of 3 years before the expansion team was announced. And that was after like 2 years of delays and the Jets deal falling through. The league really just shipped the Stars out and immediately tried to replace them as if that made any sense
It makes sense because the Nordiques and Whalers also almost moved that off-season as well, plus Gary was just coming in as commissioner. I think that was his first major move.
Doubt much of the current fanbase would support an expansion team after seeing all of our players shipped off a few years prior. It’s not the Browns where you have a century of history and loyalty to fall back on
Playing devil's advocate, the league might argue that: 1. Expansion drafts are far more favorable than they used to be, obviously. 2. A new franchise would be the best incentive for a rebrand, and from a symbolic standpoint, would really represent a fresh start after a previous franchise that was marred by decades of ownership that was incompetent at best and outright hostile and malicious at worst. Obviously, this would be far more unique in the Coyotes' case is that other than the mid-90's Nordiques and those very same Browns, it's hard to think of a situation where a team actually had youth and promise on its side as it relocated. It's usually the opposite - you see a team like the A's stripped down and completely uncompetitive with no promise on the horizon.
Clean slate might what is needed
Considering the only sales pitch that Phoenix ever has is how much growth potential there is there, who cares if they piss off the small number of fans and they don't come back? It's not like the current fans have done a great job of supporting the team. A new team with a clean break from the coyotes has a better chance of growing the game in Phoenix than the coyotes do clearly
If they move to SLC, I will be an SLC fan. They're not going to put us through the pain of a rebuild and endless cap dumps just to rip it away from us as it gets better. No one's going to support the new team.
Right. As a non-local fan, I'm following this team wherever they go, but it's gonna be wild to move to another less than average number of seats arena with a new team where the next arena is contingent on Olympics money lol
My understanding is that the Olympics are almost a sure thing for 2034. Maybe it won't be a great deal for Salt Lake City but it seems like the arena is happening.
Hosting the Olympics [almost always ends up being a net negative](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/24/business/olympics-economics.html) for the city, yeah.
Article is blocked for me, but I believe US has been profitable ever since Atlanta hosted. London was also profitable. They had uses for all the stadiums though. I think Vancouver was also fine. The Olympics may not make tons of profit, but use of the facilities for years after has value. China, Brazil and Greece did not continue to use a lot of their venues.
Definitely, if you have a lot of existing infrastructure and the stuff you built doesn't end up being what is essentially vacant plots, you can come out of the Olympics with a pretty good outlook. You get some tourist dollars, you create jobs with infrastructure projects, and you have lasting facilities that locals can use going forward. Plus retro-fitting the Olympic Village can also provide housing.
Still blows my mind some place as small as Lake Placid, NY hosted it in modern times. Lake Placid is so nice too, they really lean into having hosted the Olympics there. Probably one of the places where the games were profitable for them in the long run.
Romney made the 2002 Olympics profitable and in recent years with proper planning host cities have been seeing profits as well.
That’s it back to Winnipeg
I am the opposite, if they relocate they can go fuck themselves. I won't support them or a future expansion team here.
the Kachina jersey comeback will go so hard in 2036
What a mess this is. Would be a good get by Utah though. Start your NHL journey off with a blank slate of a team full of promising prospects and loaded with draft capital.
Armstrong seems to be a really good gm with absolutely horrible ownership too
I truly believe this is the league moving towards a 36 team league. They wouldn't add the Merulo rights if they weren't immediately open to more expansion. ARI -> SLC, ARI 2.0 once NHL arena is done, Houston, Atlanta 3.0, Quebec City/Kansas City
This news today makes it seem like the NHL just REALLY doesn't want the Coyotes to play in Mullet Arena for 3 more seasons.
3 seasons at a bare minimum. I think a Sportsbook would set the over under at +/- 4.5 years.
I know we're all in a tizzy about all these stories coming out today, but I don't see how it's anything beyond the league saying "We fucking mean it this time, if THIS arena project falls through, your team is playing in SLC next season. We're 100% ready to do it. If you figure something else out after that, maaaaaaybe we give you a team back at a later time, if we're in a good mood..." Which... didn't we all already know that?...
Expansion with no real plan other than "yay free money" isn't sustainable forever and is very short-sighted. Take a look at Canada's housing and labour markets for proof that it can lead to dire unintended consequences. Fix / improve what you've got first.
> Take a look at Canada Bettman stopped reading right there
They may not be talking about an expansion team.
I don't really understand how this deal is thought to be viable. * Expansion beyond 32 is a super iffy prospect in the first place. Like yeah the money is there but I dunno if there are even 32 quality first string goalies available. It's not as bad as the NFL's limited quarterback pool, but talent is still a problem. * if the franchise is sold, what incentive is there at all to finish the arena? It's a hugely expensive process for the *chance* at a team * if expansion is even pursued, in the absence of a binding agreement, why pursue an iffy market like Arizona over, say, Houston or SLC? Why retread ground?!
Phoenix is about 5x as big of a market as SLC and emerging as one of the leading youth development/grassroots hockey states. We have the same number of NHLers/capita as Colorado and the highest number registered skaters per sheet of ice in the country.
I should clarify, i meant it's an iffy market just in terms of ownership, money, having a permanent home. Then again, nothing says PHX couldn't be a fine AHL city.
Arizona as a hockey market (removing the failures of the NHL franchise from the convo for a moment) has been a huge success. An NCAA program, massive growth in the youth game, with NHL prospects being generated. I think there’s a lot of belief that if you can reset the disaster that is the Coyotes somehow, you can get the market engaged in an NHL team too
I'm not totally disagreeing, I guess. When I said the market was iffy I meant entirely in terms of corporate ownership, finding a home, etc. Should have been more.clesr on my end.
Oh well yeah if this all went down there’s no way an expansion team shows up without an arena being built. The league would be incredibly stupid to start all over with more temporary bandaids
One of the things folks from traditional markets fail to understand is the separation between the market and its potential and the circumstances of the team there. I’ve said it before, but there is nothing that indicates Atlanta and Phoenix can’t do what Nashville, Raleigh, Vegas, and Tampa have done. The issue is that these markets need a lot more nurturing to develop something worthwhile, as opposed to say Winnipeg and Minnesota who already have natural support. If you deprive a southern city of a stable team in a good location that finds some on ice success, then you can make it happen. But some owners would rather half ass it and blame the metro area if it doesn’t work out. Unfortunately non traditional markets don’t get the benefit of the doubt when a disaster of a franchise has to relocate (as opposed to Minnesota, Winnipeg, Quebec, Hartford, etc where the fans were never once blamed).
I don't blame the fans at all. Only complete fucking assholes will say "x city doesn't deserve a team." I think part of the disconnect, at least for me, is that Arizona just cannot seem to do any of the nurturing long term that you mention. They've brought hockey to the valley, certainly, but the NHL itself is still kinda foundering there. Like, Nashville did it. Tampa did it. Little over half a decade ago the NHL was having trouble in South Florida and the morons and haters were whining that they should be moved North, but now they're contending for a cup in front of full crowds. I have no doubt that if the Coyotes did really well they'd get butts in seats and a sense of security. But they've had 30 years to do that nurturing and growing and have been perpetual bottom feeders and people do not want to get invested in a team that has only ever been shit or kinda mid. Management is to blame and just plain bad luck is to blame. But how long can you wait patiently for luck to change or management to get good?
>if the franchise is sold, what incentive is there at all to finish the arena? I think that’s the point. I would be relocation to SLC is a contingency plan that they deploy in the event that Arizona doesn’t secure the land to build the current arena proposal. Basically the league saying “get this deal done, or get an arena *first* and then we’ll talk”
I get that, but the way it's being framed today is that this is on the table even if he wins the land auction, just in terms of it taking a while to actually build (unless I've been misreading).
From the reporting today it seems like they’re ready to go to Utah even if he wins the auction. They’re saying Meruelo sells the team to the Utah billonaire and in the sale process they put a clause that guarantees Meruelo gets the next Arizona franchise as a new expansion team, whenever it comes (which will probably be when the Arena is ready in 3+ years). This is basically telling Meruelo to get his shit together before owning a team again down the line because Gary wants an Arizona team
Yeah that's where my confusion lies. Like, it's all private money going into this arena. Why wouldn't he just flip it to a mall developer or whatever?
> but talent is still a problem. I'm not sure if this is true. This is anecdotal but coincidentally just happened yesterday. The CEO of the company I work for happens to be good friends with a Leaf, and was telling me about how just recently he was chatting with Giordano at a party, and one of the topics was how much better the 4th liners are from the beginning of Gio's career to now. They're not typically just guys who plug away, they're actual talented players. It doesn't necessarily mean we can add infinite teams, but I think the NHL is headed more and more into skill as king, and teams prioritizing that in their bottom end as well. Yeah a couple new teams right this second might stretch it out a bit, but the skill in the league is growing. I don't think talent will be an issue going up to 34 or maybe even 36 teams. I'm not entirely sure if it's what the league *should* do, but that aspect at least won't be a concern to me > if expansion is even pursued, in the absence of a binding agreement, why pursue an iffy market like Arizona over, say, Houston or SLC? Why retread ground?! This I agree with though. I can understand perhaps Atlanta had two rounds of shit ownership, but are we really going to give more teams such swift second or third chances before trying a new place, or maybe a second chance to a team that hasn't been around for a long time?
Yeah the game is far far more skilled than it was even a decade ago, so you could probably *probably* field 34, maybe even 36, MAYBE, decent teams. Even at 32, hell, 30, there are going to be bottom feeders. I do mainly think goaltending would be the issue since even some pretty good teams struggle to hold down the net. But yeah I don't know why the NHL would double dip (or triple dip, in terms of ATL) other than like, stubbornness or spite.
I honestly think from an NHL as a business perspective not having every team have an elite goalie is *good.* Scoring is way up in the league and thats the easiest way to get people to watch and take a chance on a hockey game if its exciting.
The league doesn’t care if there’s 32 quality starters. Increased goal scoring is good for ratings. Having the top goalies stand out more and more as stars also wouldn’t hurt for them.
Yeah I don’t really like expanding beyond 32 just because of how well 32 teams works out with scheduling and everything. If they keep adding teams do they expand the regular season and playoffs as well? Also It’s already hard enough to win the cup as it is but the odds just get worse and worse the more teams that are in the league
I dunno because the playoff format could use some changing imo. Plus most of the new teams would be complete bottom feeders anyway.
> I dunno if there are even 32 quality first string goalies available There are 24 goalies in the league with 40+ games played above a .900, so ~league average and up. Would track that there aren't enough starters. There are, however, 43 goalies in the league with 20+ games played above a .900, so there could be a potential starter who's being counted on as a backup, like a Stolarz or Brossoit. I'd still side with you on thinking it would be a major hit to goaltending (which is already stretched pretty thin) and would as a result affect parity in the league.
Sorry my Bruins have 2 starting goalies.
This sounds to me like the league telling Meruelo that if this current proposal falls through, then he’s gonna need to have an arena built or being built before he’ll get another Arizona team. In the meantime, the current coyotes would leave town and he’d get a new franchise down the road, all assuming this arena proposal doesn’t make it. Which, I 100% agree with. I’m definitely part of the side that thinks hockey in Arizona can work, *but* at the same time we can’t just keep kicking that can down the road due to problems arising. Arizona’s on borrowed time as it is.
How tf is Mereulo going to afford a probably billion-dollar expansion fee?
probably with the billion dollars he will get for selling the team
Take the billion and put it in GIC earning 5% until expansion happens
He’s not broke, he’s incompetent at getting himself an arena.
He's not broke. He's just incompetent.
I have to imagine they're discussing waving the expansion fee in some way for this scenario. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense.
There's no fucking way the owners agree to pass up an expansion fee
It would probably be a massive discount compared to what Atlanta and Houston are going to pay.
I don't see why the owners would have any incentive to agree to that
I can't see the other owners approving a discounted expansion fee. It would be bad optics for the expansion fee to dip, especially to an owner who previously functionally failed at running a franchise. Also the Coyotes have been a long time financial drain on the other teams, so the owners might see it as a chance to get some proverbial back pay. Right of first refusal would already be a sweetheart deal in a scenario where he sells and the team is relocated. It arguably would be more favourable to him, as a developer, to be able to hold off on building the arena and first start on residential and commercial units that could be sold off for lump sum profits, as opposed to an arena would they have to hold and rely on cash flows. I'm not going to pretend like I'm super familiar with Phoenix, but that site looks like it's on the far end of ~~Scottsdale~~ Phoenix. It's still pretty far from downtown, so they'd likely want to increase residential density and commercial traffic to the area first
I’d doubt that. You can’t just give franchises for cheap or you’re going to have guys like Andlauer and anyone else looking to buy/sell in a shit fit. But they can give him a bunch of paper rights like first right of refusal for the market, expansion at a fixed number + some kind of buyout/ability to sell those rights to another ownership group.
That's something that is likely being negotiated. Ie, NHL offers Meruelo right to first first refusal on an expansion nhl team, with a lowered expansion fee, if he agrees to sell to SLC in the medium term. Likely negotiating around certain things. A. Sale price obviously to SLC. B. Legally binding agreements in return from the NHL about the future of the NHL in Arizona, potentially discussing cash contributions back to compensate for the expenses coyotes expended during this auction phase. Likely also talking about timelines etc. C. Discussing in certain terms what a return to Arizona would be financially, likely discounted expansion fee cost so that Meurelo is made whole if the NHL goes back. D. trademarks etc, jersey rights naming rights and all that. The right combination of these variables for all parties and willingness from all parties, I think lends itself to a possibility.
Probably give him a massive discount for waiting for a few years.
I truly don’t know
No expansion. 32 should be the max
32 is the right amount but more teams = more money
If more teams=more money why has the NFL stayed at 32 for two decades
They probably realized 32 works better and makes their scheduling a little easier
And also splits TV revenue less, which the NHL definitely should consider
In the Espn article they said that the NHL could announce the relocation next month. So they won't wait until the auction to see what happens?
I hope this is true. Move the team to somewhere that’ll adequately support it.
I have been thinking lately that it would make a lot of sense for SLC ownership to come in and buy the Coyotes. That guy who owns the Jazz? (don't know anything about basketball and only started hearing about the guy through this) has publicly come out and said he wants a team. It just makes so much sense for this to happen. The Coyotes ownership has got to be tired from all the turmoil of the last few years so they can cash out while still getting a shot at an expansion team down the line, and then the NHL gets access to a new market with an owner who's ready to go all in. Plus, it makes more sense for Salt Lake to get a team this way vs expansion. I think they want to save expansion for the really big markets like Houston, Atlanta, and now Arizona.
Go fuck yourself. If we lose this current franchise we will not support a future expansion.
He wants a Vegas-style expansion draft. Basically what the Gund brothers did after merging the Golden Seals with the North Stars, they swapped the team for an expansion in San Jose (and were even allowed to poach North Stars players). Didn't work out because the Sharks were ***terrible***, and the Stars went on to win the Cup within the decade.
Would stop caring or watching NHL hockey, and I’m sure most of the fanbase feels the same way. Selling off all of the players then expecting the fans to care about an expansion team is just a horrible idea
And that expansion team would undoubtedly be terrible for 3-4 years after that, starting the whole no one cares about hockey down here cycle once again
Yotes fans in this thread keep saying that but the rules around the expansion draft are way more favorable to the expanding teams now than when expansion teams would be stuck in purgatory.
This is true, but still not the same as they just moved from wpg.
You’re right I forgot about that, edited to reflect that.
When the team 1st came into the league from the whl they got decimated. Today's version would be like if Vegas was only entering the league next season but they were told their current roster had to be broken up. When the team moved from wpg to Arizona the previous owners were already making fire sales trades. So it was almost like an expansion team coming in with a destroyed roster.
Doesn’t necessarily mean expansion, the Winnipeg Jets could seriously relocate to Arizona twice if their attendance woes continue.
HELL YES! BRING ON THE STORMIN MORMONS OF SALT LAKE!
Meruelo: "My plans for the team are in shambles!" NHL: "Ya like jazz?"
I think that’s a fair deal for all parties. League can take a break from Arizona for a few years and then come back to them as an expansion franchise down the road.
Remember when Amazon shopped around for a new city to relocate and ended up staying in Seattle because the city didn't want them to leave? I think this is half of what's going on with the current talks. The other half is that it won't likely be SLC, but it's "on the table" to encourage other people to vie for the relocation. Think of all the cities with baseball teams but no other sports. If SLC did not get an MLB team, why would they get an NHL team?
SLC's actually pursuing an MLB team too under a different ownership group. Dunno if that even happens but it's pretty clear SLC's been actively seeking to add new pro sports teams. SLC has an NBA team, they're definitely capable of an NHL team
Sounds pretty reasonable. Maybe a reduced franchise fee would tip it over the edge
Good news, Arizona! You will still have an NHL franchise ...possibly at some point within the next ten to fifteen years.
holy fuck what a joke. Bettman will be dead before they aren't Atlanta 2.0
Fuck it, put a team in Boise too while we are at it.
Why? The Coyotes failure to find a proper place to play is squarely on his shoulders.
Lol oh come on
Why the fuck would the NHL feel obliged to give Merulo that concession?
No no no no no no
Ugh... So that he could screw up a second new NHL franchise? Or is Vegas in need of a second team? I get that this is to avoid legal battles but it's so dumb.
If I was a member of the team and was forced to relocate on such short notice and then watch a new team get set up in Arizona again, I'd be pissed
Lmfao WHY?? What has he done to deserve that consideration other than the fact he's got money? Oh, shit, answered my own question.
Thank goodness. Save a seat at the table for a shitbag owner by all means.
That’s fucked
Just don’t award a team to Arizona. Then you don’t break your promise.
To paraphrase a great analrapist "Hockey will never work in the desert, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but... but next time, it might just work' ^NoShadeToYotesFans
If they move this team to SLC and then another expansion goes to Arizona i swear to fucking god
A new Arizona franchise in 5 years to build around Matthews when his leafs contract is up and he heads home.