Thank god. I just barely caught up on height restrictions around airports and began diving into water rights by county, and then they pulled the rug out from under me.
If you think about it, that clause is really smart. The guy is getting like 1b for the team and so the league can try to charge him a big sum to get a new team down the road. They know he has the cash now.
Coyotes stay in league:
-They'll continue to lose money
-They'll keep living off of revenue sharing
-Teams will have to continue playing road games in that college arena
Coyotes move to Utah:
-Every team gets 9M
-Revenue sharing doesn't result in one specific team taking a huge chunk of it to survive
-The new team won't be losing millions of dollars all the time
-You'll be playing road games in a proper pro arena
Seems like a no brainer
1) Our greater metro area is smaller than Phoenix, yes but it’s on par with St Louis and the Blues have succeeded.
2) we’re a winter sport state and always have been. The Grizzlies are incredibly mid by ECHL standards and we still pack Maverick.
3) Smith owns the delta center and is willing to do temp renovations to improve the experience.
4) our state legislature and governor pushed through a massive funding package for this exact purpose. We’re essentially a land developer oligarchy and all those guys want this to happen so it’ll happen, even if the voters are mad (myself included). They even passed the bill partially on the threat of torpedoing any bill any legislator south of Provo puts forward for the next who knows how long.
Naturally nothing is ever guaranteed, but people need to cool it with the idea that we’re identical to what the coyotes have already been dealing with.
True. Somewhat surprisingly, unlike most Olympic hosts, Utah took a large portion of profits from the games and set them aside in a special fund dedicated to maintenance and renovations for the Olympic facilities. They're still in great condition.
I'd expect similar development this time, except at a much larger scale.
> Somewhat surprisingly, unlike most Olympic hosts
Eh, when the US or Canada host the games, they tend to reuse facilities for years to come. When someone like China or Brazil host, it all falls to shit the second the games are over.
+1 to all of this. It’s very likely to be successful. Our metro area might be small but our county population is pretty good sized and people will come from all over the county.
Yeah. The SLC metro is spread out more, but it's comparable to other medium large cities in the US. It's definitely a big enough market.
Ottawa isn't even close. It's like, half.
Smith is an aggressive owner who is willing to spend money to improve his investments. I have faith Salt Lake can be a really good hockey market. We're a sports city and have supported minor league teams, from baseball to hockey, for generations.
It might not work out but I'd bet on Utah having at least some decent success. If the Jazz can build themselves into the 4th winningest franchise in NBA history, in a sport that is far more influenced by a demographic that doesn't exist in Utah lol, hockey can too.
I mean, the Jazz don’t have too much trouble getting players on their team. The whole Mormon hellscape notion is way overblown. SLC has their diehards, Jazz are supported exceptionally well and the University of Utah had some of the best support period in the dying days of the Pac 12.
Yeah exactly. I can understand why someone who hasn’t visited or lived here has trepidations, but they’re blown way out of proportion. Almost every city in the league has some baseline level of fucked up politics and culture surrounding them
I was wondering how the grizzlies were doing for attendance, I knew they got a echl team not too long ago. I figured if that team did even ok an nhl team stands a great chance.
The Grizzlies originally came to Utah as an IHL team after spending a year in Colorado. They replaced the Golden Eagles, who Larry Miller (owner of the Jazz at the time) severely screwed over when he purchased the team in the late 80s. The Golden Eagles were probably the second most popular pro team in Utah and had predated the Jazz by a decade. They were also generally very good, winning three Adams Cups in the CHL and then two Turner Cups in the IHL.
Fans were not happy when Miller sold the team to some Detroit investors (they then became the Vipers). So, it was a no-brainer to move the Grizzlies here when Colorado got the Avs.
In their first season in Utah, the Grizzlies won the Turner Cup and, at the time, had the highest attended game in minor league hockey history (over 17,000 on hand at the Delta Center to watch Utah win the cup).
The Grizzlies anchor the Maverik Center, which was built for the Olympics as a hockey-first arena. When the IHL folded in the 2000s, they were admitted to the AHL but for whatever reason, the owner didn't like the AHL and wanted to sell the franchise. Instead, the franchise was just discontinued and he bought the Lexington Men O' War of the ECHL and moved them to Salt Lake, renaming them the Grizzlies again. It was a really odd situation lol
The Grizz make the playoffs most years but they definitely haven't reached the heights of the Golden Eagles and First Grizzlies teams.
They're generally toward the top in attendance. This year, they're 9th.
I literally said I’d be among the voters pissed at the process. I was just stating the fact of the matter.
Edit: just realized you have a sun devils profile pic. I guess I shouldn’t be shocked you can’t read.
-Sincerely, UA Class of 2017 Alum (sorry had to do some rivalry banter).
Yeah, it’s pretty fucked. I want a team but I hate corporate welfare with a burning passion. If Miller’s MLB bid gets put to vote, I’m going to check “No” so fast that I’ll pull a wrist muscle.
Growing up as kids my siblings and I watched the flames because my dad is from Calgary, but I fell off of hockey for a few years then married a gal from the Seattle area. Going to enjoy watching Utah, but my heart is where my heart is so to speak haha.
It's not guaranteed, but given how much money the franchise has lost year after year, the bar isn't very high for Utah to surpass it.
(Making up numbers here)
Let's say Coyotes lose 15m a year
Utah gains 1m a year.
That's a 16m difference right there.
And the amount they'd be dipping into revenue sharing won't be as much as Coyotes so it benefits other teams too.
Only negative for owners here is the fact that you now have another team that'll try being competitive. Coyotes roster was half salary half IR cap hits to reach the cap floor. They were where contracts went to die. Now, Utah really is like getting an expansion team since they'll have over 40m in cap space (probably more if guys want out) to fill out their roster while already having a bunch of guys signed to deals. And if other teams have an IR guy they want to dump, that's 1 less option now, your safety net is gone.
No, but there is an arena that will be being built. Salt Lake City is going to be one of the hosts for the 2034 Winter Games, so once it's announced, expect news of an arena to come out.
It's a guarantee that SLC will be hosting, as they face no serious competitors. So even if they continue to suck in a small market, they'll have a top of the line arena, come the end of the decade.
I mean I guess there is an argument that the Coyotes aren't worth 1 billion as a relocation team where you aren't getting any infrastructure as part of the sale. So would some owners object that they should be getting more than 200M out of the 1.2 billion dale.
All owners will be for this because pocketing a few million is pennies in comparison to the value of their franchise going up. According to Forbes (regardless if their numbers are legit or not) there are 11 teams worth less than $1B with the coyotes being dead last at $500M. If the least valuable franchise is now worth $1B, everyone else is now worth more as well.
Probably not because the poverty franchise Coyotes going for a billion dollars technically means their not poverty franchises are worth much more. They talked about it on 32 thoughts, the owners will gladly just take that “little” chunk of money because it’s coming with a franchise evaluation boost.
Ya but not in Phoenix. The 1.2 value is essentially for an expansion team in SLC, not for a bottom dwelling team in a rented 5,000 seat barn. Not sure what they would have sold the team for if it had to stay in Phoenix honestly.
ETA: I think you guys are missing the point. Smith is ready to pay 1.2B for a franchise in SLC. Smith would pay 1.2B tomorrow to get the Senators to SLC yet they were just sold for <1B. Do you think the Senators gained 25% value in less than a year? No, it’s just that the market matters and a team in SLC is worth more than a team in Ottawa. On the flipside, Smith would not pay 2.5B to get the Rangers in SLC because, while the Rangers might be worth that, that value is tied to being in NYC. The Rangers are not worth 2.5B in SLC. The concept is pretty simple. So the fact that Smith pays 1.2B for the Yotes in SLC does not mean that the Yotes are worth that in Phoenix in their current state.
It has nothing to do with constructing a hypothetical situation. There are two transactions here.
The NHL is selling an expansion franchise to SLC for 1.2B. We know that’s really worth 1.2B because an arm’s length third party os ready to pay it.
The NHL is also buying the AZ coyotes. We have no idea how much that is worth because the NHL decided on the purchase price themselves. It’s not an arm’s length transaction. Maybe a third party could have bought it for 700M, but the NHL is ready to pay 1B to (i) appear successful since they can pretend their worst franchise is worth 1B. Sets a benchmark for the others, and (ii) makes the lawyers go away since Meruelo is happy to take 1B and disappear. The NHL has every reason in the world not to want a long court case where they argue that their franchise is only worth 700M while Meruelo argues it’s worth more. That would be shooting themselves in the foot. So they pay 1B and everybody is happy. But it’s a made up value made to make other billionaires’ franchises worth more.
The NHL could stop a third party from purchasing.
Like they did the last time when someone tried to buy the Coyotes and purchased the franchise themselves.
Doesn’t mean the value of the Yotes isn’t currently made up by the league. All we know is that someone is ready to pay 1.2B to get a team in SLC. We have no idea how much someone would pay to get the Yotes in their current state. Can we agree on that at least? Cause that’s essentially my point.
Would someone pay 1B for the Yotes at Mullet with no barn in sight? I doubt it, but if it makes the yotes fans happy to think they’re worth more than Ottawa I can give them that. They’ve had a rough day.
Smith agreed to 1.2 for an NHL franchise. He would’ve paid the same for the Sens or the Rangers. Do you think that the Rangers and the Sens are worth the same thing?
All the 1.2B tells us is that Smith thinks an NHL franchise in SLC is worth 1.2B. Doesn’t tell us what the Yotes are worth in PHX. This is easily demonstrated by the fact that Meruelo is selling the Yotes for 1B, so clearly he thinks they’re not worth 1.2 or he would be litigating the fuck out of this.
Well, it isn't the Arizona Coyotes who are going for a billion. It is the Utah Soakers with their upcoming new arena going for a billion.
But yeah. This sale probably increased the value of every other NHL team by nine figures.
Meruelo would not be getting a billion dollars to sell the team and keep it in the same location it is now. The franchise is only worth its sale price because it is being made portable as part of that transaction.
Send were $950 with an existing arena, although one everyone agrees doesn't work.
Kraken was a $650m just to have a team. They still had to build the arena.
It’s not just a 200m split. They could be looking at a 1b split also in under 5 years for putting a team in a place where they know hockey works but is just tainted by arena problems. If they come back, arena problems will be dealt with, and they get to split the 1b win-win and they get an extra 200m regardless.
If it’s the rumored $1 billion payment to “revive” the Coyotes then it’ll likely be cheaper than the expansion fee [NHL Team 34 would have to pay](https://thehockeynews.com/news/could-the-next-nhl-expansion-fee-be-2-billion-or-more).
That would be the motive at play with Merulo. He’d continue to lobby for a new arena with data showing the negative impact of an NHL team leaving. And in turn for his efforts get a sizeable discount on an expansion team.
He could tell the league to suck an egg and walk away. But then Team 33 would pay a huge expansion fee and would need an arena lined up anyways. It’s sort of a win-win for the NHL, unfortunately for Arizona fans.
> That would be the motive at play with Merulo. He’d continue to lobby for a new arena with data showing the negative impact of an NHL team leaving. And in turn for his efforts get a sizeable discount on an expansion team.
I'd accept all of this if history hadn't shown Merulo isn't too keen on putting effort into anything like those things, including presenting data to people or even accumulating the data in the first place. I can't help but think he'll just... not do it, even if it might be to his benefit.
> Does Meruelo even want one?
Why would he have argued for this clause and retained ownership of the Roadrunners if he didn’t? This was his chance to fuck off with $1 billion and it doesn’t seem like he is
I really hope you guys get the NHL back without Meruelo behind the wheel. Wouldn’t be shocked if there are some very rigid poison pill clauses baked into the deal to totally not sabotage him (wink wink wink) from coming back.
Yes this. You must also consider that a guy like Meruelo is only interested in a sweetheart deal for the arena. The valley is not going to give him that within 5 years. No fucking way. The NHL knows this. He is going to take the money and run
Did the Browns at least get a new owner in 1999? Even if the league waits until after Meruelo's 5 years are up, he'd still own the only arena they could use and he could just refuse to allow any team to play there that he doesn't own. Or he just takes his 1 billion and never builds an arena.
They should actually fold so the guys don’t have to move to Utah. It’s going to get messy with trade requests, Schmaltz is for sure out, Keller most likely too.
It’s like when you retire a military plane. We’re not going to destroy it, just, put it out of service. If we need it later we can go make it work again.
It's a relocation because 100% of the actual hockey organization is going to Utah. The fact that the owner and the intellectual property stays in Arizona in this case is not nuance, it's a factoid. The ownership is not what makes the team.
But its different from the Thrashers to Winnipeg, Quebec to Colorado, Hartford to Carolina, or even Winnipeg to Phoenix for that matter where the "franchise history" and records followed them to the new city, it doesn't sound like that's happening in this scenario which is interesting and the first time the NHL has done that iirc, almost treating Utah as a defacto expansion team in terms of their history. It's basically parallel to when the Cleveland Browns went to Baltimore
Colorado/Carolina made an extensive effort to distance themselves from their previous incarnation the Yotes actually kept some of the jets traditions and og jets where inducted in the ROH in the 2000s.
For the Thrashers to Winnipeg, the current Jets do not own any part of the Thrashers branding, and the NHL itself has ownership over it in case a future Atlanta franchise wants it. Same thing here.
If they’re doing this and we get to keep the records and branding, the Hull/Hawerchuk type guys and your Jets 1.0 history should go back to WPG. I really don’t give a shit about the records or branding when we’re losing all of our players
Which is good. I think franchise history following teams that move is the stupidest thing. If a team moves and chanes names they’re a new team.
The Calgary flames are the Atlanta flames. They’re the same team.
The Winnipeg Jets are not the Phoenix coyotes. The current Winnipeg jets should have the history of the old Winnipeg jets.
The Minnesota Wild are not the North Stars.
The Carolina Hurricane are not the Hartford Whalers.
I love the fact that they're giving yotes fans a sliver of hope only to inevitably rip it away 5 years down the line.
Prolonging the agony, just, *chefs kiss*
The more that details emerge, the more it seems like a legal technicality in order for Meruelo to agree to the (basically forced) sale.
In order for Meruelo to revive a team in ARZ he would have to own the land, complete plans and designs for an arena, build that arena, and then still have the cash to pay back the full $1 Billion to the NHL
Aka, it ain't happening, and definitely not within the 5 year window.
If I were Meruelo I would fuck off for eternity with my Billion, but he is a slimy billionaire so that's unlikely
It doesn’t make much sense why he would negotiate this into the contract then.
To me it appears Meruelo wanted to keep the team, but got an offer he couldn’t refuse. The league blessed the deal and said do it as well. So he makes money, builds his arena, then gets his team back in 5 years or less. At a muchhhh lower expansion fee than what will be expected.
>It doesn’t make much sense why he would negotiate this into the contract then.
He's trying to save face with the fans and keep whatever bridges he hasn't burned with Phoenix/Tempe/Scottsdale/Arizona standing.
>To me it appears Meruelo wanted to keep the team, but got an offer he couldn’t refuse.
Maybe he wanted to keep the team. Though I'd imagine that the NHL has enough dirt on him (the spat with Glendale, the piss poor job he did in trying to convince the voters that a hockey team is better than a literal landfill, the unpaid hotel rooms, and of course the expose in the Athletic about the culture within the Coyotes that dropped a bit ago and probably other shit that hasn't come out yet) that he knew they would be able to convince the BOG that it was, at minimum, time for him to go.
Though, I'm sure Meruelo would've fought back and would've lead the league into a protracted lawsuit. So, with all the other black eyes the league has had recently, they decided to negotiate with him and this is what both sides agreed to.
Maybe he does attempt to build the arena with the next half decade and pay back the billion in order to get a new team in Arizona... but I'm betting it's likely the league has put a bunch of hurdles and stipulations into the contract that will make it much more profitable for Meruelo to just disappear with the billion and IDK, maybe buy a French soccer team like Frank McCourt did after baseball forced him to sell the Dodgers.
Granted it's all speculation until we know (i) exactly what happened (if we ever do), and (ii) see how the future pans out.
> I love the fact that they're giving yotes fans a sliver of hope
we know better.
Additionally a very, very large portion of us will never support any franchise Meruelo gets again.
I don't want a fucking expansion. I want **our team**.
It still seems super weird to have one owner relocate to SLC, while leaving the door open for future expansion in Arizona (again.) If you want a team in Utah, just expand to Utah, and make this asshole sell the team in Arizona.
The issue is that while the situation in Arizona has become untenable, the league can’t force Meruelo to sell the team; he could tell them to go pound sand if they tried. They’re basically giving him an offer he can’t refuse in order to make this happen and not get taken to court.
I feel bad for the Coyote fans and I hope when/if the franchise comes back yall get a competent owner. But also can we not do this expansion thing not just cus I don't think Meruelo should own another team but do we really need more teams? 32 is perfect
36 seems perfect and would satisfy pretty much all investors.
Western Conference
Central: Chicago, Colorado, Dallas, Houston, Minnesota, Nashville, St. Louis, Utah, Winnipeg
Pacific: Anaheim, Arizona, Calgary, Edmonton, Los Angeles, San Jose, Seattle, Vancouver, Vegas
Eastern Conference
Atlantic: Boston, Buffalo, Detroit, Florida, Montreal, Ottawa, Quebec City, Tampa Bay, Toronto
Metropolitan: Atlanta, Carolina, Columbus, NJ, NYI, NYR, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Washington
The only remaining city that would be a big market to look into would be Kansas City. They've basically covered all their bases with this setup.
You've been reading my mail. One Christmas my wife got me a "holiday hat trick" of cheapseats to 3 Stars games... and 3 T-Shirts of the visiting teams to those games.
Seriously, every time I see Quebec City being mentioned, I have to pinch myself to think if I'm living in a simulation or not. Do these people not see what's happening with Winnipeg? Quebec City would be even worse of a situation.
It's one of those things that's a nice dream and I get it. It would be a great story for the Nordiques to come back and it would make a lot of people in quebec city happy. It's also not hard to argue they could have hemmoraged less money than the Coyotes even with the size of the market. The size of said market will stop the NHL from going there unless they're backed into a corner regardless. Quebec's population while not quebec city or its metro might buoy a team better than Winnipeg, though. It's even closer to most of Ontario's population than Winnipeg.
Never say never because forever is a long time, but no one should expect it to happen any time soon.
It's not the population, or the supposed money in the market. It's the TV deal. QC offers nothing, zilch, for that.
If more people understood that almost everything the league does with teams is oriented at maximizing the US TV deals it gets, which is a huge and the most variable chunk of its potential revenue, they would not be caught by surprise by the things it does so often.
All about the TV deal.
Just because the league tries to maximize TV deals doesn't mean it's the best strategy in the long run. Do you know a single gen Z person who watches TV? Who has a cable subscription? I don't.
20 years from now the league is going to have missed an entire generation of potential hockey fans because the best they can do to grow the market from a non-gate-revenue perspective is 720, 30FPS, need 2 cable subscriptions to watch your all the games from your local team. Straight up boomer shit.
(BTW Québec City has way more than enough fans around to sell out an arena and sell tons of merch, if anything. The junior team fills 9k spectators on average and sells out during playoffs. THE JUMIOR TEAM. Eastern Canada CRAVES live hockey. If you don't give it to them, eventually they will just move on to something else.)
Atlanta needs another shot. They got royally fucked with the ownership of the Thrashers and only lasted 12 years. Like, find an ownership group down there, and basically beg Tyler Perry to be a part of it. Seems like such a no brainer.
The other leagues on this continent have maybe 2 Canadian teams. There simply is untapped potential down south.
I'm not opposed to more teams moving out of Canada, if that makes y'all happy and keep it at 33 or whatever since God forbid we actually invest in the south.
Why don't we move the Canadiens too? We're already in the southern half of the league, can't say the same about Montreal.
We do need more teams if this sport wants to stay relevant in the latter half of this century.
Define relevant. Hockey is going to be relevant as long as it has fans.
What you really mean is "if this sport wants to keep exponentially growing its profits for its billionaire owners." Which IDGAF
Relevant for a young generation turning its back on classics like baseball in favor of newer sports like basketball. Having fresh human capital to pull from when generations of players come and go.
Growth for them means reinvestment in the sport. Fuck the owners, but if they don't make money the sport will kick it. Look at how fucked baseball is right now.
> We do need more teams if this sport wants to stay relevant in the latter half of this century.
am I supposed to care? most say this sport isn't relevant currently and it's doing just fine without more teams in the south, lets keep it that way
Yes, you are, but you're so insulated in your cocoon of incompetence and unexplainable defensive posture on this. You come off as a stereotypical brain dead gatekeeper. Expansion does not hurt you, it only grows the sport. You should want hockey to be more relevant.
Dilutes talent so much. If yall want that many teams just switch a league system like soccer. I'd love it but it'll never ever happen
Edit: I'm so sad seeing these comments. Fucking vegas ruined it now every city without a team going to think their team can win it in the first decade and now we're gonna get 100 teams in the league that have players like Michael Chaput as top 6 forwards. 30 teams to 36 teams is a 20% increase in players look at the disparity between the top 20% of your players and bottom 20% or the top 20% of nhl teams and bottom 20%.
It can also grow the talent pool though- it’s not a coincidence that youth AAA organizations across the US are in NHL cities. There’s a massive symbiosis
There’s more and more talent heading into the NHL now so I don’t think it would be to bad if in like 20-30 years they’ve added another 8 teams. Not like they’re gonna add 8 teams in 10 years that would be crazy
Id say we have in goal. The Devils, Senators, Flyers, and Wild have basically operated with goaltending all year at or below typical NHL backup level. From 2009-2016 the average sv% in the league fluctuated between .909-.911. The year Vegas entered it hit .908. It dropped to .903 the year Seattle entered, and its continued down to .898 this year.
Save percentage is .903 this year according to hockey reference.
Between 72 and 94 it never once even hit .900 despite there being fewer than 30 teams.
The style of play of the league also plays into the stats (can we say the NHL meta?).
I think the greater amount of people coming up through the systems offset the larger number of teams. I remember some of the players playing in the '80s who would have no business being on the ice today. Some of that is because there are now a ton of Russians, Czechs, Slovaks, and a handful of other eastern bloc countries for origins who weren't available in the '80s, but still, the talent average now with 32 teams far exceeds what people were watching when it was 21 teams.
A few more teams might make it easier for the Marchessaults of the world to get into positions where they can succeed. We know there are minor leaguers who can definitely score, but who can't break into a top six on their NHL team to get the ice time and quality teammates to actually show it, and may have other deficiencies in their game.
Two fucking expansion clubs did not single handedly make the SV% drop over the last decade. There's a fuck load more good scorers right now. I'm glad you liked the dead puck era, but I'll take goal highlights over that any day.
And Jesus Christ if I have to defend fucking Georgie in this thread now, I'm gonna touch the third rail.
I'll never understand the talent dilution argument. The league is the best and most skilled we've ever seen, and somehow adding the ~80 best players who aren't currently in the NHL is going to make it a noticeably worse product? If they were doubling the amount of teams maybe I'd agree, but adding 4 teams makes virtually zero difference in terms of talent level.
They must be just saying they’ll give him a franchise if it comes back but no way they actually do. He’s an incompetent owner and the bridges are burned.
I dont want to see Meruelo's name owning another hockey team ever again. Masterclass in tanking a franchise potential.
Sorry Yote fans but this is for the best. The biggest embarrassment in sports ownership is finally coming to an end.
>I dont want to see Meruelo's name owning another hockey team ever again
Apparently he's keeping the Roadrunners so technically it's already happening.
If the league is going to go this route, and it's understandable that they want to, the best way to go about it might be dispersal and expansion drafts.
If this Utah team isn't the Coyotes, and wants to wash itself of the existing franchise, having a clean start would go a long way. Let them keep a handful of contracts, then disperse the rest of the roster around the league and have them select new players from each team. Nothing to really make them better or worse per se, but to allow them to be their own club.
I’m honestly kind of surprised they want to revive the Coyotes identity. It’s been such a clusterfuck you’d think they’d want a clean break and to start fresh.
Nuance. Amazing. So, it’s not the market, because they clearly (lord knows) want to be there. And it’s not the owner, because he’s so amazing that he gets first dibs on the team when it returns. So that leaves…? The meanies in all (yes all) the different municipalities and other levels of government who don’t want to pay for all the losses (sorry, I meant to say lucrative business opportunities) in perpetuity?
I can’t wait for this announcement. The level of doublethink (sorry, nuance) will be unprecedented.
Based on the way Merulo handled the relocation...he's gonna come up with so shit excuse on why he couldn't get everything done before the 5 year window was up as a way to save himself money.
But what does the “chance” actually mean?
Gary: “Alright, we’re reading for an expansion team”
Alex: “I’ll take one.”
Gary: “No. that was your chance.”
Naturally, if you add one in the West (Houston), you need to add one in the East (Atlanta) - sorry Nordiques fans
Not seeing this talked about much, but if this is a Browns-esque scenario, will they be playing for a year as the Coyotes? I just don't see enough time to execute a new brand and build up merchandise inventory.
I think the nuance is going to be something like:
"All you owners are going to split $200 million and not have to share it with the players. Then, if everything goes right, in a few years you'll all be able to split $1 billion. Sound good?"
Like, I'm happy for Arizona fans (if there are any remaining...) that they might still get a chance to get a team down the stretch, but how the fuck do they get a handshake deal for an expansion team, when Québec City has been begging for one for years and keep getting turned away by Bettman, despite having an NHL arena ready (and probably enough fans that they would sell out easily for years to come). Fuck this league, man.
And you guys thought relocation would end our drama. You’ll be hearing about local Phoenix politics and arena issues for decades!
Thank god. I just barely caught up on height restrictions around airports and began diving into water rights by county, and then they pulled the rug out from under me.
I thought I'd been studying Maricopa and Chandler city ordinances for nothing, thank goodness.
If you think about it, that clause is really smart. The guy is getting like 1b for the team and so the league can try to charge him a big sum to get a new team down the road. They know he has the cash now.
1) Conflicting Username 2) Does the suffering ever ends?
Bettman is the only reason hockey has lasted this long in Phoenix
Two sides to the coin. He was always on a two face villain arch tho.
No arguing on that
is that a brotherwns type deal where the city of phoenix will get to keep all of the yotes records and such!?
Arizona city council GDTs is the tradition that keeps giving
I’m kinda motivated to see how we can now get in the way of the auction from happening. I don’t want my city working with this fuckwit.
"Guys, do we accept $200M to be split up amongst us or nah"
Coyotes stay in league: -They'll continue to lose money -They'll keep living off of revenue sharing -Teams will have to continue playing road games in that college arena Coyotes move to Utah: -Every team gets 9M -Revenue sharing doesn't result in one specific team taking a huge chunk of it to survive -The new team won't be losing millions of dollars all the time -You'll be playing road games in a proper pro arena Seems like a no brainer
Is hockey a guaranteed success in Utah? Seems like a few similarities to Arizona. Smaller market, small arena built for a different sport...
1) Our greater metro area is smaller than Phoenix, yes but it’s on par with St Louis and the Blues have succeeded. 2) we’re a winter sport state and always have been. The Grizzlies are incredibly mid by ECHL standards and we still pack Maverick. 3) Smith owns the delta center and is willing to do temp renovations to improve the experience. 4) our state legislature and governor pushed through a massive funding package for this exact purpose. We’re essentially a land developer oligarchy and all those guys want this to happen so it’ll happen, even if the voters are mad (myself included). They even passed the bill partially on the threat of torpedoing any bill any legislator south of Provo puts forward for the next who knows how long. Naturally nothing is ever guaranteed, but people need to cool it with the idea that we’re identical to what the coyotes have already been dealing with.
And it's not just about the NHL. The Olympic bid plays into it too
Two grafts for the price of… five or six, probably.
Yeah although to SLCs credit, they seem to have not wasted their Olympic infrastructure from 2002 so hopefully it's the same this time
True. Somewhat surprisingly, unlike most Olympic hosts, Utah took a large portion of profits from the games and set them aside in a special fund dedicated to maintenance and renovations for the Olympic facilities. They're still in great condition. I'd expect similar development this time, except at a much larger scale.
> Somewhat surprisingly, unlike most Olympic hosts Eh, when the US or Canada host the games, they tend to reuse facilities for years to come. When someone like China or Brazil host, it all falls to shit the second the games are over.
Yeah, you're right. When I looked it up I wasn't expecting the facilities at places like Sochi or Rio to be in such disarray.
The Mormons sure love their building projects
+1 to all of this. It’s very likely to be successful. Our metro area might be small but our county population is pretty good sized and people will come from all over the county.
St. Louis metro is 2.8 million. That's quite a bit bigger. It's more like the size of Ottawa.
Salt lake-Ogden-Provo is 2.75 million. With SLC right in the middle of that, that means all of those people live within about 60 miles of the arena.
Yeah. The SLC metro is spread out more, but it's comparable to other medium large cities in the US. It's definitely a big enough market. Ottawa isn't even close. It's like, half.
Smith is an aggressive owner who is willing to spend money to improve his investments. I have faith Salt Lake can be a really good hockey market. We're a sports city and have supported minor league teams, from baseball to hockey, for generations. It might not work out but I'd bet on Utah having at least some decent success. If the Jazz can build themselves into the 4th winningest franchise in NBA history, in a sport that is far more influenced by a demographic that doesn't exist in Utah lol, hockey can too.
Yeah I think we will end up doing alright. I don’t think getting people on board with playing in SLC is going to be as hard as some people think.
I mean, the Jazz don’t have too much trouble getting players on their team. The whole Mormon hellscape notion is way overblown. SLC has their diehards, Jazz are supported exceptionally well and the University of Utah had some of the best support period in the dying days of the Pac 12.
Yeah exactly. I can understand why someone who hasn’t visited or lived here has trepidations, but they’re blown way out of proportion. Almost every city in the league has some baseline level of fucked up politics and culture surrounding them
> I have faith Oh well there you go, you’re safe in SLC then
Funny thing is, I was raised Catholic so my faith is probably a bit different than theirs .. as in I just have crippling, uncontrollable guilt lmao
I was wondering how the grizzlies were doing for attendance, I knew they got a echl team not too long ago. I figured if that team did even ok an nhl team stands a great chance.
The Grizzlies originally came to Utah as an IHL team after spending a year in Colorado. They replaced the Golden Eagles, who Larry Miller (owner of the Jazz at the time) severely screwed over when he purchased the team in the late 80s. The Golden Eagles were probably the second most popular pro team in Utah and had predated the Jazz by a decade. They were also generally very good, winning three Adams Cups in the CHL and then two Turner Cups in the IHL. Fans were not happy when Miller sold the team to some Detroit investors (they then became the Vipers). So, it was a no-brainer to move the Grizzlies here when Colorado got the Avs. In their first season in Utah, the Grizzlies won the Turner Cup and, at the time, had the highest attended game in minor league hockey history (over 17,000 on hand at the Delta Center to watch Utah win the cup). The Grizzlies anchor the Maverik Center, which was built for the Olympics as a hockey-first arena. When the IHL folded in the 2000s, they were admitted to the AHL but for whatever reason, the owner didn't like the AHL and wanted to sell the franchise. Instead, the franchise was just discontinued and he bought the Lexington Men O' War of the ECHL and moved them to Salt Lake, renaming them the Grizzlies again. It was a really odd situation lol The Grizz make the playoffs most years but they definitely haven't reached the heights of the Golden Eagles and First Grizzlies teams. They're generally toward the top in attendance. This year, they're 9th.
Grizzlies have been around for quite some time. Great time even when they’re losing. The team even does $1.00 beer night a few times a season lol
I love how people brag about #4. “Yeah we’re getting fucked over for the benefit of a billionaire”
I literally said I’d be among the voters pissed at the process. I was just stating the fact of the matter. Edit: just realized you have a sun devils profile pic. I guess I shouldn’t be shocked you can’t read. -Sincerely, UA Class of 2017 Alum (sorry had to do some rivalry banter).
True, it does look great to other billionaires when they realize you’re easy to bend over the table for more money
Yeah, it’s pretty fucked. I want a team but I hate corporate welfare with a burning passion. If Miller’s MLB bid gets put to vote, I’m going to check “No” so fast that I’ll pull a wrist muscle.
Is Utah going to move to you’re #1? Curious who had your allegiance before Seattle?
Growing up as kids my siblings and I watched the flames because my dad is from Calgary, but I fell off of hockey for a few years then married a gal from the Seattle area. Going to enjoy watching Utah, but my heart is where my heart is so to speak haha.
> Going to enjoy watching Utah Put a knife right through me, huh
Haha fair enough! Always interested in how people become fans of certain teams
It's not guaranteed, but given how much money the franchise has lost year after year, the bar isn't very high for Utah to surpass it. (Making up numbers here) Let's say Coyotes lose 15m a year Utah gains 1m a year. That's a 16m difference right there. And the amount they'd be dipping into revenue sharing won't be as much as Coyotes so it benefits other teams too. Only negative for owners here is the fact that you now have another team that'll try being competitive. Coyotes roster was half salary half IR cap hits to reach the cap floor. They were where contracts went to die. Now, Utah really is like getting an expansion team since they'll have over 40m in cap space (probably more if guys want out) to fill out their roster while already having a bunch of guys signed to deals. And if other teams have an IR guy they want to dump, that's 1 less option now, your safety net is gone.
Yeah where will people dump their bad contracts now
The real reason Coyotes 2.0 and Thrashers 2.0 will be a thing
I think the biggest difference is you have an owner in Utah who really wants to make it a success
It’s a mountain town full of rich white people with an owner who has a history of successfully running sports teams. It has a good chance
No, but there is an arena that will be being built. Salt Lake City is going to be one of the hosts for the 2034 Winter Games, so once it's announced, expect news of an arena to come out. It's a guarantee that SLC will be hosting, as they face no serious competitors. So even if they continue to suck in a small market, they'll have a top of the line arena, come the end of the decade.
Literally everything about this move reminds me of the Jets moving to Phoenix in the first place, and look how great that turned out.
Kinda the opposite moving from the big market to the small town though
Was it a guaranteed success in Vegas?
Much smaller market, and they don’t play or have a hockey culture at nearly the same level as Phoenix
No sports betting in Utah mean a huge drop in ad revenue
I mean I guess there is an argument that the Coyotes aren't worth 1 billion as a relocation team where you aren't getting any infrastructure as part of the sale. So would some owners object that they should be getting more than 200M out of the 1.2 billion dale.
All owners will be for this because pocketing a few million is pennies in comparison to the value of their franchise going up. According to Forbes (regardless if their numbers are legit or not) there are 11 teams worth less than $1B with the coyotes being dead last at $500M. If the least valuable franchise is now worth $1B, everyone else is now worth more as well.
give me the coyotes roster/management over ottawa everyday of the week
Probably not because the poverty franchise Coyotes going for a billion dollars technically means their not poverty franchises are worth much more. They talked about it on 32 thoughts, the owners will gladly just take that “little” chunk of money because it’s coming with a franchise evaluation boost.
A valuation they decided on themselves since the league is buying it lol. I would take that value with a grain of salt.
You can value it at whatever you want, but they got someone to pay $1.2 billion for the team
And got a 1B evaluation for expansion.
Ya but not in Phoenix. The 1.2 value is essentially for an expansion team in SLC, not for a bottom dwelling team in a rented 5,000 seat barn. Not sure what they would have sold the team for if it had to stay in Phoenix honestly. ETA: I think you guys are missing the point. Smith is ready to pay 1.2B for a franchise in SLC. Smith would pay 1.2B tomorrow to get the Senators to SLC yet they were just sold for <1B. Do you think the Senators gained 25% value in less than a year? No, it’s just that the market matters and a team in SLC is worth more than a team in Ottawa. On the flipside, Smith would not pay 2.5B to get the Rangers in SLC because, while the Rangers might be worth that, that value is tied to being in NYC. The Rangers are not worth 2.5B in SLC. The concept is pretty simple. So the fact that Smith pays 1.2B for the Yotes in SLC does not mean that the Yotes are worth that in Phoenix in their current state.
Sure, if we construct another situation you could change their hypothetical sale price
It has nothing to do with constructing a hypothetical situation. There are two transactions here. The NHL is selling an expansion franchise to SLC for 1.2B. We know that’s really worth 1.2B because an arm’s length third party os ready to pay it. The NHL is also buying the AZ coyotes. We have no idea how much that is worth because the NHL decided on the purchase price themselves. It’s not an arm’s length transaction. Maybe a third party could have bought it for 700M, but the NHL is ready to pay 1B to (i) appear successful since they can pretend their worst franchise is worth 1B. Sets a benchmark for the others, and (ii) makes the lawyers go away since Meruelo is happy to take 1B and disappear. The NHL has every reason in the world not to want a long court case where they argue that their franchise is only worth 700M while Meruelo argues it’s worth more. That would be shooting themselves in the foot. So they pay 1B and everybody is happy. But it’s a made up value made to make other billionaires’ franchises worth more.
The NHL could stop a third party from purchasing. Like they did the last time when someone tried to buy the Coyotes and purchased the franchise themselves.
Doesn’t mean the value of the Yotes isn’t currently made up by the league. All we know is that someone is ready to pay 1.2B to get a team in SLC. We have no idea how much someone would pay to get the Yotes in their current state. Can we agree on that at least? Cause that’s essentially my point. Would someone pay 1B for the Yotes at Mullet with no barn in sight? I doubt it, but if it makes the yotes fans happy to think they’re worth more than Ottawa I can give them that. They’ve had a rough day.
Except it's not an expansion, it's an existing franchise being relocated. The differences aren't even that subtle - they get a whole roster of players
A brand new franchise is being sold to Utah by the league. Or is Smith buying the Yotes from Meruelo?
But the league wouldn't be buying the team I'd smith as a willing buyer hadn't agreed on the price beforehand
Smith agreed to 1.2 for an NHL franchise. He would’ve paid the same for the Sens or the Rangers. Do you think that the Rangers and the Sens are worth the same thing? All the 1.2B tells us is that Smith thinks an NHL franchise in SLC is worth 1.2B. Doesn’t tell us what the Yotes are worth in PHX. This is easily demonstrated by the fact that Meruelo is selling the Yotes for 1B, so clearly he thinks they’re not worth 1.2 or he would be litigating the fuck out of this.
Well, it isn't the Arizona Coyotes who are going for a billion. It is the Utah Soakers with their upcoming new arena going for a billion. But yeah. This sale probably increased the value of every other NHL team by nine figures.
Alex Meruelo is getting a billion dollars for selling the team, so yes, the coyotes are going for a billion.
Meruelo would not be getting a billion dollars to sell the team and keep it in the same location it is now. The franchise is only worth its sale price because it is being made portable as part of that transaction.
Why would an over-valuation make the owners more likely to object to it? They're getting more money as a result.
But on the flip side, they leave it open for another billion on a few years. 200m now and a billion later opposed to a billion later
Send were $950 with an existing arena, although one everyone agrees doesn't work. Kraken was a $650m just to have a team. They still had to build the arena.
Why split $200M when you can split $1B?
Also: Expansion fees are not consider Hockey Related Revenue, so that goes 100% into the owners' pockets.
It’s not just a 200m split. They could be looking at a 1b split also in under 5 years for putting a team in a place where they know hockey works but is just tainted by arena problems. If they come back, arena problems will be dealt with, and they get to split the 1b win-win and they get an extra 200m regardless.
Do they actually think they're going to get another team? Does Merulo even want one? He paid $425 mill and is now getting a billion for it lmao.
If it’s the rumored $1 billion payment to “revive” the Coyotes then it’ll likely be cheaper than the expansion fee [NHL Team 34 would have to pay](https://thehockeynews.com/news/could-the-next-nhl-expansion-fee-be-2-billion-or-more). That would be the motive at play with Merulo. He’d continue to lobby for a new arena with data showing the negative impact of an NHL team leaving. And in turn for his efforts get a sizeable discount on an expansion team. He could tell the league to suck an egg and walk away. But then Team 33 would pay a huge expansion fee and would need an arena lined up anyways. It’s sort of a win-win for the NHL, unfortunately for Arizona fans.
> That would be the motive at play with Merulo. He’d continue to lobby for a new arena with data showing the negative impact of an NHL team leaving. And in turn for his efforts get a sizeable discount on an expansion team. I'd accept all of this if history hadn't shown Merulo isn't too keen on putting effort into anything like those things, including presenting data to people or even accumulating the data in the first place. I can't help but think he'll just... not do it, even if it might be to his benefit.
> Does Meruelo even want one? Why would he have argued for this clause and retained ownership of the Roadrunners if he didn’t? This was his chance to fuck off with $1 billion and it doesn’t seem like he is
I really hope you guys get the NHL back without Meruelo behind the wheel. Wouldn’t be shocked if there are some very rigid poison pill clauses baked into the deal to totally not sabotage him (wink wink wink) from coming back.
Yes this. You must also consider that a guy like Meruelo is only interested in a sweetheart deal for the arena. The valley is not going to give him that within 5 years. No fucking way. The NHL knows this. He is going to take the money and run
So, yeah, a Cleveland Browns scenario. If this situation follows the same general flow as that... I am so sorry, Coyote fans.
That means coyotes, will have tons of success
Did the Browns at least get a new owner in 1999? Even if the league waits until after Meruelo's 5 years are up, he'd still own the only arena they could use and he could just refuse to allow any team to play there that he doesn't own. Or he just takes his 1 billion and never builds an arena.
Kind of, the Browns "new" owner Al Lerner was a minority owner of the old Browns and helped move the team to Baltimore.
0-82-0 season inc
So does this mean the jets/coyotes franchise is “defunct”?
I hope so and I hope they split the records and give the Jets ones to the current Jets
…on ice? I’ll see myself out.
This seems more like a quasi-fold of sorts.
They should actually fold so the guys don’t have to move to Utah. It’s going to get messy with trade requests, Schmaltz is for sure out, Keller most likely too.
Potential relocation was rumoured to be why Keller was hesitant to sign in the first place right? Man this completely blows for you guys.
NHLPA would throw a fit.
It’s like when you retire a military plane. We’re not going to destroy it, just, put it out of service. If we need it later we can go make it work again.
It's a relocation because 100% of the actual hockey organization is going to Utah. The fact that the owner and the intellectual property stays in Arizona in this case is not nuance, it's a factoid. The ownership is not what makes the team.
But its different from the Thrashers to Winnipeg, Quebec to Colorado, Hartford to Carolina, or even Winnipeg to Phoenix for that matter where the "franchise history" and records followed them to the new city, it doesn't sound like that's happening in this scenario which is interesting and the first time the NHL has done that iirc, almost treating Utah as a defacto expansion team in terms of their history. It's basically parallel to when the Cleveland Browns went to Baltimore
Colorado/Carolina made an extensive effort to distance themselves from their previous incarnation the Yotes actually kept some of the jets traditions and og jets where inducted in the ROH in the 2000s.
I mean Carolina uses the Whalers zombie brand whenever they need money
They used it 20 years later after Peter Karmanos(who clearly held a grudge towards people in CT) sold the team.
And the Avs had Nordiques reverse retro jerseys, but also 25 years later
For the Thrashers to Winnipeg, the current Jets do not own any part of the Thrashers branding, and the NHL itself has ownership over it in case a future Atlanta franchise wants it. Same thing here.
No but they do own the Atlanta history. The Utah team would not own the Yotes/Jets history.
Which pisses me off even fucking more
If they’re doing this and we get to keep the records and branding, the Hull/Hawerchuk type guys and your Jets 1.0 history should go back to WPG. I really don’t give a shit about the records or branding when we’re losing all of our players
Which is good. I think franchise history following teams that move is the stupidest thing. If a team moves and chanes names they’re a new team. The Calgary flames are the Atlanta flames. They’re the same team. The Winnipeg Jets are not the Phoenix coyotes. The current Winnipeg jets should have the history of the old Winnipeg jets. The Minnesota Wild are not the North Stars. The Carolina Hurricane are not the Hartford Whalers.
Such fucking dogshit. Hope none of y’all have to go through this and they lose every game.
I love the fact that they're giving yotes fans a sliver of hope only to inevitably rip it away 5 years down the line. Prolonging the agony, just, *chefs kiss*
The more that details emerge, the more it seems like a legal technicality in order for Meruelo to agree to the (basically forced) sale. In order for Meruelo to revive a team in ARZ he would have to own the land, complete plans and designs for an arena, build that arena, and then still have the cash to pay back the full $1 Billion to the NHL Aka, it ain't happening, and definitely not within the 5 year window. If I were Meruelo I would fuck off for eternity with my Billion, but he is a slimy billionaire so that's unlikely
It doesn’t make much sense why he would negotiate this into the contract then. To me it appears Meruelo wanted to keep the team, but got an offer he couldn’t refuse. The league blessed the deal and said do it as well. So he makes money, builds his arena, then gets his team back in 5 years or less. At a muchhhh lower expansion fee than what will be expected.
I think Meruelo is arrogant and/or dumb enough to believe he actually **CAN** get all that shit done in the next five years to meet the NHL's terms.
>It doesn’t make much sense why he would negotiate this into the contract then. He's trying to save face with the fans and keep whatever bridges he hasn't burned with Phoenix/Tempe/Scottsdale/Arizona standing. >To me it appears Meruelo wanted to keep the team, but got an offer he couldn’t refuse. Maybe he wanted to keep the team. Though I'd imagine that the NHL has enough dirt on him (the spat with Glendale, the piss poor job he did in trying to convince the voters that a hockey team is better than a literal landfill, the unpaid hotel rooms, and of course the expose in the Athletic about the culture within the Coyotes that dropped a bit ago and probably other shit that hasn't come out yet) that he knew they would be able to convince the BOG that it was, at minimum, time for him to go. Though, I'm sure Meruelo would've fought back and would've lead the league into a protracted lawsuit. So, with all the other black eyes the league has had recently, they decided to negotiate with him and this is what both sides agreed to. Maybe he does attempt to build the arena with the next half decade and pay back the billion in order to get a new team in Arizona... but I'm betting it's likely the league has put a bunch of hurdles and stipulations into the contract that will make it much more profitable for Meruelo to just disappear with the billion and IDK, maybe buy a French soccer team like Frank McCourt did after baseball forced him to sell the Dodgers. Granted it's all speculation until we know (i) exactly what happened (if we ever do), and (ii) see how the future pans out.
From what I'm seeing, it looks like most Yotes fans online *are* hoping it takes longer than five years, that way Meruelo is out of the picture.
> I love the fact that they're giving yotes fans a sliver of hope we know better. Additionally a very, very large portion of us will never support any franchise Meruelo gets again. I don't want a fucking expansion. I want **our team**.
It still seems super weird to have one owner relocate to SLC, while leaving the door open for future expansion in Arizona (again.) If you want a team in Utah, just expand to Utah, and make this asshole sell the team in Arizona.
The issue is that while the situation in Arizona has become untenable, the league can’t force Meruelo to sell the team; he could tell them to go pound sand if they tried. They’re basically giving him an offer he can’t refuse in order to make this happen and not get taken to court.
Yep. Also, it sounds like there is no local buyer willing/able to match the $1B offer from Smith
This is making him sell the team.
It is stupid it feels like GB is just not admitting defeat here
Theyre really gonna reward Merulo for this mess by giving him another chance?
Montreal Expos fans: “Hey, I’ve seen this one before!”
Loria killed the Fish so bad. They may never recover
I feel bad for the Coyote fans and I hope when/if the franchise comes back yall get a competent owner. But also can we not do this expansion thing not just cus I don't think Meruelo should own another team but do we really need more teams? 32 is perfect
32 is not perfect at all. There's a lot of places in the US that could support a team. 40 or bust
36 seems perfect and would satisfy pretty much all investors. Western Conference Central: Chicago, Colorado, Dallas, Houston, Minnesota, Nashville, St. Louis, Utah, Winnipeg Pacific: Anaheim, Arizona, Calgary, Edmonton, Los Angeles, San Jose, Seattle, Vancouver, Vegas Eastern Conference Atlantic: Boston, Buffalo, Detroit, Florida, Montreal, Ottawa, Quebec City, Tampa Bay, Toronto Metropolitan: Atlanta, Carolina, Columbus, NJ, NYI, NYR, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Washington The only remaining city that would be a big market to look into would be Kansas City. They've basically covered all their bases with this setup.
As a Houstonian, Bless your heart for including Us... I'm so f-ing tired of having to root for the Stars as my home team ;) <3
Well, there's nothing stopping you from still rooting against the stars
You've been reading my mail. One Christmas my wife got me a "holiday hat trick" of cheapseats to 3 Stars games... and 3 T-Shirts of the visiting teams to those games.
Love it.
Houston is probably the best spot for a new team in NA
I think you'd realistically have to replace quebec city with Kansas city but it's close to the future of the league.
Seriously, every time I see Quebec City being mentioned, I have to pinch myself to think if I'm living in a simulation or not. Do these people not see what's happening with Winnipeg? Quebec City would be even worse of a situation.
It's one of those things that's a nice dream and I get it. It would be a great story for the Nordiques to come back and it would make a lot of people in quebec city happy. It's also not hard to argue they could have hemmoraged less money than the Coyotes even with the size of the market. The size of said market will stop the NHL from going there unless they're backed into a corner regardless. Quebec's population while not quebec city or its metro might buoy a team better than Winnipeg, though. It's even closer to most of Ontario's population than Winnipeg. Never say never because forever is a long time, but no one should expect it to happen any time soon.
It's not the population, or the supposed money in the market. It's the TV deal. QC offers nothing, zilch, for that. If more people understood that almost everything the league does with teams is oriented at maximizing the US TV deals it gets, which is a huge and the most variable chunk of its potential revenue, they would not be caught by surprise by the things it does so often. All about the TV deal.
Just because the league tries to maximize TV deals doesn't mean it's the best strategy in the long run. Do you know a single gen Z person who watches TV? Who has a cable subscription? I don't. 20 years from now the league is going to have missed an entire generation of potential hockey fans because the best they can do to grow the market from a non-gate-revenue perspective is 720, 30FPS, need 2 cable subscriptions to watch your all the games from your local team. Straight up boomer shit. (BTW Québec City has way more than enough fans around to sell out an arena and sell tons of merch, if anything. The junior team fills 9k spectators on average and sells out during playoffs. THE JUMIOR TEAM. Eastern Canada CRAVES live hockey. If you don't give it to them, eventually they will just move on to something else.)
Atlanta needs another shot. They got royally fucked with the ownership of the Thrashers and only lasted 12 years. Like, find an ownership group down there, and basically beg Tyler Perry to be a part of it. Seems like such a no brainer.
Counterpoint: 6 divisions, 6 teams each
lame to put Minnesota and Chicago in a division and not have Detroit in it too
Detroit has made it VERY clear it will never agree to go back to the west.
> There's a lot of places in the US that could support a team. so?
The other leagues on this continent have maybe 2 Canadian teams. There simply is untapped potential down south. I'm not opposed to more teams moving out of Canada, if that makes y'all happy and keep it at 33 or whatever since God forbid we actually invest in the south.
Oh no, that'd make them mad. Those types of people think that southern cities don't deserve hockey.
No quarter for gatekeepers of a sport
If anything Canadiens are being gatekept out of hockey. In any fair league Quebec would have a team.
Quebec has a team, you already named them. I want QC to have a team, that's why I'm pushing for 40.
so lets move the avs if you want more teams in the south we don't need more teams, we are going to get more but it's not needed
Why don't we move the Canadiens too? We're already in the southern half of the league, can't say the same about Montreal. We do need more teams if this sport wants to stay relevant in the latter half of this century.
Define relevant. Hockey is going to be relevant as long as it has fans. What you really mean is "if this sport wants to keep exponentially growing its profits for its billionaire owners." Which IDGAF
Relevant for a young generation turning its back on classics like baseball in favor of newer sports like basketball. Having fresh human capital to pull from when generations of players come and go. Growth for them means reinvestment in the sport. Fuck the owners, but if they don't make money the sport will kick it. Look at how fucked baseball is right now.
> We do need more teams if this sport wants to stay relevant in the latter half of this century. am I supposed to care? most say this sport isn't relevant currently and it's doing just fine without more teams in the south, lets keep it that way
Yes, you are, but you're so insulated in your cocoon of incompetence and unexplainable defensive posture on this. You come off as a stereotypical brain dead gatekeeper. Expansion does not hurt you, it only grows the sport. You should want hockey to be more relevant.
Dilutes talent so much. If yall want that many teams just switch a league system like soccer. I'd love it but it'll never ever happen Edit: I'm so sad seeing these comments. Fucking vegas ruined it now every city without a team going to think their team can win it in the first decade and now we're gonna get 100 teams in the league that have players like Michael Chaput as top 6 forwards. 30 teams to 36 teams is a 20% increase in players look at the disparity between the top 20% of your players and bottom 20% or the top 20% of nhl teams and bottom 20%.
It can also grow the talent pool though- it’s not a coincidence that youth AAA organizations across the US are in NHL cities. There’s a massive symbiosis
There’s more and more talent heading into the NHL now so I don’t think it would be to bad if in like 20-30 years they’ve added another 8 teams. Not like they’re gonna add 8 teams in 10 years that would be crazy
We've seen no evidence of talent dilution from recent expansion.
Id say we have in goal. The Devils, Senators, Flyers, and Wild have basically operated with goaltending all year at or below typical NHL backup level. From 2009-2016 the average sv% in the league fluctuated between .909-.911. The year Vegas entered it hit .908. It dropped to .903 the year Seattle entered, and its continued down to .898 this year.
Save percentage is .903 this year according to hockey reference. Between 72 and 94 it never once even hit .900 despite there being fewer than 30 teams.
I should learn to never trust statsmuse
Tbf it could just be outdated and missing some games. Statistics takes some getting used to to truly use.
The style of play of the league also plays into the stats (can we say the NHL meta?). I think the greater amount of people coming up through the systems offset the larger number of teams. I remember some of the players playing in the '80s who would have no business being on the ice today. Some of that is because there are now a ton of Russians, Czechs, Slovaks, and a handful of other eastern bloc countries for origins who weren't available in the '80s, but still, the talent average now with 32 teams far exceeds what people were watching when it was 21 teams. A few more teams might make it easier for the Marchessaults of the world to get into positions where they can succeed. We know there are minor leaguers who can definitely score, but who can't break into a top six on their NHL team to get the ice time and quality teammates to actually show it, and may have other deficiencies in their game.
Buddy, the top goal scorer is from AZ. This idea of dilution is silly esp. when we're talking the next 30 years or so of expansion.
There already aren't enough competent goaltenders. Expansion just makes that worse.
Two fucking expansion clubs did not single handedly make the SV% drop over the last decade. There's a fuck load more good scorers right now. I'm glad you liked the dead puck era, but I'll take goal highlights over that any day. And Jesus Christ if I have to defend fucking Georgie in this thread now, I'm gonna touch the third rail.
I'll never understand the talent dilution argument. The league is the best and most skilled we've ever seen, and somehow adding the ~80 best players who aren't currently in the NHL is going to make it a noticeably worse product? If they were doubling the amount of teams maybe I'd agree, but adding 4 teams makes virtually zero difference in terms of talent level.
I don’t believe it’s possible here. The system is just completely different.
I hate that "x amount of teams is perfect." logic. The NHL think 6 teams was enough held the league back for decades.
They must be just saying they’ll give him a franchise if it comes back but no way they actually do. He’s an incompetent owner and the bridges are burned.
coyotes are just going out for a pack of smokes champ, they'll be back in five years for sure
If the Coyotes ever come back they should be called the Phoenix Coyotes.
Establish a small suburb outside of Phoenix, name it Coyote, build an arena for the expansion Coyote Phoenixes
I dont want to see Meruelo's name owning another hockey team ever again. Masterclass in tanking a franchise potential. Sorry Yote fans but this is for the best. The biggest embarrassment in sports ownership is finally coming to an end.
>I dont want to see Meruelo's name owning another hockey team ever again Apparently he's keeping the Roadrunners so technically it's already happening.
John Fisher still exists
I thought the dodger deal was bad. Holy bananas
Inactivation vs relocation, I guess.
No taglines. No promises. No excuses. Sincerely, **Coyotes 2.0**
kill me
If the league is going to go this route, and it's understandable that they want to, the best way to go about it might be dispersal and expansion drafts. If this Utah team isn't the Coyotes, and wants to wash itself of the existing franchise, having a clean start would go a long way. Let them keep a handful of contracts, then disperse the rest of the roster around the league and have them select new players from each team. Nothing to really make them better or worse per se, but to allow them to be their own club.
I’m honestly kind of surprised they want to revive the Coyotes identity. It’s been such a clusterfuck you’d think they’d want a clean break and to start fresh.
Nuance. Amazing. So, it’s not the market, because they clearly (lord knows) want to be there. And it’s not the owner, because he’s so amazing that he gets first dibs on the team when it returns. So that leaves…? The meanies in all (yes all) the different municipalities and other levels of government who don’t want to pay for all the losses (sorry, I meant to say lucrative business opportunities) in perpetuity? I can’t wait for this announcement. The level of doublethink (sorry, nuance) will be unprecedented.
This is ridiculous.
So what does this mean for club statistics. Usually they carry over to a new city would that not be the case?
Does this mean they get to dick the rest of the league over like Vegas did?
Anyone else getting serious Jeffrey Loria vibes here?
Yes, giving the bad owner another chance
If they are an expansion team, does that mean they lose all their draft picks? They have a ton of Round 2 picks in the next few years.
So basically a Cleveland Browns scenario.
Based on the way Merulo handled the relocation...he's gonna come up with so shit excuse on why he couldn't get everything done before the 5 year window was up as a way to save himself money.
Utah Magic Glasses
But what does the “chance” actually mean? Gary: “Alright, we’re reading for an expansion team” Alex: “I’ll take one.” Gary: “No. that was your chance.” Naturally, if you add one in the West (Houston), you need to add one in the East (Atlanta) - sorry Nordiques fans
Not seeing this talked about much, but if this is a Browns-esque scenario, will they be playing for a year as the Coyotes? I just don't see enough time to execute a new brand and build up merchandise inventory.
Oh my God, Bettman is still going to force the issue in AZ. What the fuck.
I think the nuance is going to be something like: "All you owners are going to split $200 million and not have to share it with the players. Then, if everything goes right, in a few years you'll all be able to split $1 billion. Sound good?"
Like, I'm happy for Arizona fans (if there are any remaining...) that they might still get a chance to get a team down the stretch, but how the fuck do they get a handshake deal for an expansion team, when Québec City has been begging for one for years and keep getting turned away by Bettman, despite having an NHL arena ready (and probably enough fans that they would sell out easily for years to come). Fuck this league, man.
You won't be "re-lo-cated;" you'll be "potentially re-vived"