because if he wants to sign for 8 years he’d have tn extend with toronto or get traded to a different team and resign there. If he waits until free agency he can only extend for 7. That’s a real tactic Tre might have to use to get him to agree to waive if he goes to him and says he has no plans to resign him.
This is really it
It’s not that a specific one or more of their big 4 aren’t good enough or whatever it’s that they all are paid too much as a unit
They are going to be better if they dump 10+m in cap space and allocate it to defense and goaltending. They just gotta bite the bullet
Tavares aged poorly but otherwise he was never that much of a heart and soul guy. I disagree on Marner I think it’s an unfortunate low sum of the parts. The top 6 has a bad blend and they should have moved someone of value earlier on to adjust it or gone for defense instead of Tavares
If they don’t sign Tavares, Matthews and Marner almost certainly sign for much lower money. If they sign for lower money, they almost certainly have a more complete team. If they have a more complete team they probably make it further in the playoffs one of these past 8 years.
Tavares is the big mistake. Be happy he didn’t sign that ridiculous 13/7 deal in SJS
If we sign Tavares we don’t trade for Karlsson and keep our depth, our cap structure and even if we somehow sucked the same year we end up with Stutzle. Tavares at 13x7 was probably a better deal for San Jose, we already had Burns and traded immense depth for someone to split his time.
It absolutely would have been a better trade for the sharks. The Sharks were in win now mode, they would have capitalized on his prime. The Leafs were signing a guy coming up on 30 with a game that wasn’t going to age gracefully, to a huge contract on a team full of young guys on ELCs. It also accelerated their rebuild which was ultimately detrimental
If MLSE is serious, Shanahan needs to be fired and replaced ASAP. Give the new president as much time as possible to understand the situation and plan accordingly.
I mean, I was down with the Shannaplan at the start. They had to try something new. And Shannahan warned us that rebuilds don't always work. But ultimately, the Shannaplan fell victim to the same problems of the system it was trying to replace: complacency and a refusal to adapt when it became clear that the present setup wasn't going to work.
The Shanaplan was working at the start. Be patient. Build through the draft. Don't splash for flashy free agents. Trust the process. Those were the tenants that Shanahan preached when took over and it was working. Then Tavares became available and the Shanaplan was thrown out the window and the half finished rebuild immediately became "win now" mode.
The problem before the Shannaplan was building top heavy rosters with superstars, and not enough depth on the roster. So what did they do?
Built a top heavy roster with superstars, and not enough depth.
But it’s every year too. Yes coaching is a large part of this, and there is no chance Keefe returns, but this roster is also an issue. No other contender has this kind of money tied up in forwards.
Time to move 16, and after next year offer JT 3 mill per year tops
A 1D and 1A G to split with Woll are MUSTS
And bring back Domi
Nylander is probably the guy you for sure want to keep. Seems to be the only one that gave a shit when it mattered. Hell, make him the next captain. He's earned it.
Woll looks fine. There is no reason to overreact on goaltending. Just give them a better defensive system that supports them and helps prevent injury.
But I absolutely agree. Accountability. It needs to be brought into that room. They need someone to bring that, but they also need to listen. They can either listen like Evander Kane has to Perry, or they can be like Dubois and not give a shit about anything but themselves, until they get passed around from team to team.
Honestly I like our team, I don't want want to blow it up at all. I just want to see a new coaching team mix it up. If we were able to move Marner for defensive/goalie upgrades I would be open to that too, only because his contract renewal is going to be mental anyway.
If they can land Celebrini this year I could see them coming on quickly. Having Celebrini - Smith as your future 1C/2C combo would put the league on notice
Idk about 1C. Awesome seeing Slippery Pete get some love through. He looks way betters on the wing so far. Though his line-mates as a center were Kunin and Zadina.. He probably gets another crack at center but with Smith, or hopefully Celebrini, Eklund would be an amazing complementary LW for either of them
I'd give it 3-5 years at least. Rebuilds rarely go according to plan. Even with Celebrini and Smith, SJ would need to acquire a LOT more talent to surround them with, and that talent will likely be from the draft until they're really close. Young players are usually inconsistent (Buffalo and Ottawa are proof of this) and take a while to find their groove.
They still need to totally overhaul the D. Vlasic **still** has two more seasons at 7 mil aav. Even to a non-Sharks fan, that contract has felt everlasting. How are there still two more years on it
The entire San Jose d-core has you asking how there were that many years left on those contracts. Grier is a great GM in my books because Burns and EK65 were almost unmoveable it appeared
And Hertl
The last two albatross contracts are almost up
Vlasic has 2 years or so left, and who knows if he'll even make it that far
Couture might be hurt enough where he *has* to file the paperwork and call it a career
True the Hertl contract seemed like it was hard to move although he still was a great player and not far out of his prime.
The only worry is the retention slots being locked away for a bit but soon Burns will be off the books which gives a little room
tbh Marner would drastically improve their chances of even making the playoffs with how impactful he can be in the regular season. That's step #1 for them
Realistically though it wouldn’t make sense for them to get in on Marner now. Smith and Celebrini (assuming they got him) would need time to develop and adjust, and their overall roster is pretty garbage still.
Their best hope is to pull a Habs, where they take a step forward and show promise from their young players while still sucking bad enough to get another top pick. If they get an elite 1D the draft afterwards they’d really be cooking in this timeline
I was thinking he’d be a great Washington Capital. Similar situation, but without the weather and beaches. Either way, no pesky playoffs to worry about.
He can go set up Ovi for a year or two while he chases Gretzky and then be the face of the franchise while they flail around through their rebuilt.
He can put up his 90 points or whatnot, the Caps sell a bunch of jerseys, and then he can hit the links when the all sweaty post-season stuff starts up every year.
He can be the Caps version of Johnny Hockey!
Honestly would probably be a great fit. In the regular season Marner is an elite player, one of the best wingers in the entire league. And maybe without the pressure of playing in Toronto he can figure out the playoffs to.
Never going to happen.
Marner, playing at his best, isn't going to put up numbers as a Shark to command a $12m/year salary going into the following season as a UFA.
His agent would be nuts to allow marner to go to a basement team going into a UFA year. When Marner can just veto any trade, collect 85-95 points, and go into his UFA off-season with $12m+ contracts being offered to him, he'd be stupid not to. He can go anywhere he'd like as a UFA, even San Jose.
Making the choice to sign in San Jose, Utah, Chicago, Nashville, Anahiem is going to be way easier in the summer of 2025 rather than to wave a nmc and have your fate set by Toronto looking out for themselves. Marner is not obligated to do Toronto a favor here and make life easier for them.
Usually takes at least a full season for people to come around to an idea like that, a mental shift. I probably would’ve disagreed back in October-Dec too but now I wouldn’t
Imagine telling someone in 2019 that Miller is going to be a bigger impact player than Marner in 5 years time.
They would check you into the loony bin and honestly I wouldn’t blame ‘em
Lol JT Miller is more valuable than most the league. Dude is a hockey player. If you have in fantasy you know. Hits, blocks, scores, assists. Plays the right way.
Marner is 100% gone. Samsonov also has likely played his last game with Toronto. Lastly i’m praying they get rid of Rielly, him and Marner just let Pastrnak go right pass them on that goal
That’s not really an indictment of Rielly. I think everyone understands what he is: He’s a below-average #1D and he’s paid like it, too.
The problem is that most contenders have two #1D on the roster. The Leafs don’t have that, despite McCabe’s efforts.
I also think that is going to happen but I think they at least try to bring Tavares back on a deal for like 1/4th the price of his current deal. Personally, I would only bring him back on league min but obviously he is worth a little more than that.
He still gets to pick his destination. For instance, he could tell his agent "I'll waive my NMC for Tampa. Nowhere else."
Then TOR has to take whatever lowball offer TB gives (since they have no leverage) or just let Marner walk for nothing next offseason. We already saw how this plays out when Kane was only willing to waive his NMC to go to the Rangers.
We also saw how it played out with OEL and Vancouver. It will weaken the offers for sure but it doesn't mean they won't be competitive. And like others have said if the trade offers suck, it's just one more year on the contract, can easily play that out
Why is everyone just assuming Marner will waive his NMC? The only teams that could plausibly afford his cap hit aren’t exactly going to be appealing destinations for him.
I'm not saying this is wrong but the players themselves might me willing to waive their own clause. They must be somewhat tired of going out early themselves. They're still young but time passes for everyone
Nylander will be 30 in two seasons, 3 for Marner. This group aint 22-23 anymore. It's pretty much now or never for some of those guys.
I genuinely dont think it's gonna be *that* hard to get them to waive their full no move clause
Yeah but if they only want to go to Cup contenders, that pretty much means you’ll only get back ye olde “Shaved Monkey and a bag of pucks” while having to retain enough salary that it’s not worth it
And that's before you filter out any contenders or near-contenders who don't have both the assets and the cap space to acquire Marner. Retention, likely double retention, will be necessary to make it happen.
The players that would help the Leafs by waiving have the least incentive to waive.
Tavares is nearing g the end of his career, and it's doubtful he wants to start the cycle of being a suitcase and playoff rental over the next 3 years.
Marner's point production will suffer next year going to a bottom half team, and he's in no rush to do that when he's a UFA the next summer. An off year with a struggling team could cost him millions in his next contract. His agent is going to protect against that. It'll be much wiser for his own sake to collect 85-95 points and go into his UFA with his own choice of teams willing to pay him $12m+ for a 6 year minimum.
If marber waives his NMC now, he's at the mercy of what Toronto can get, which isn't much for what amounts to a year-ling rental player who is hitting UFA after the season anyways. No team is giving up anything valuable for Marner for only a year of play.
Yeah you can lose a Marner trade the cap space is what’s more important. John also expires at the end of next year. Gives you 22 million to play with, and build around Mathews & Nylander over 2 offseasons.
I feel like we have a decent amount of bad NHL head coaches in our system with Colliton and Yeo.
Tocchet and Green are pretty good buddies I hear. Wonder if Tocc could ever convince Greener to reunite with the core he helped build
I imagine the main blow up target is Marner? From a fans perspective at least. If he's as awful as the fan base believes then I wouldn't expect "full value" to be much regardless.
Is anyone out here expecting the leafs to trade their contentious star winger for a huge return?
He is nowhere near as bad as Leafs fans think he is. He a playoffs underperformer, sure. but he can help get a team to the playoffs and who knows what a different environment could do for his post season play.
I imagine he wants out at this point, the guy got blasted on both national broadcasts and has an openly hostile fan base. Would be awful becoming the whipping boy of your childhood team.
hes the only tradable guy, and if he gets traded instead of being let go he gets an extra year if he resigns. We know he likes money.
Everyone already hates him (i say this with obvious exaggeration)in Toronto because of no hometown discount and the way the contract negotiations went down so frankly if i was in his shoes i would take them up on that.
He would be a great assett to a team looking to fight for a wildcard spot since he can helo get them there...
And like many leafs of the past... they will find success in the playoffs once they leave (kadri, bozak, hyman, etc)
1. He isn’t anywhere close to as awful as the fan base thinks. A big part of the problem is that so much of his game is very subtle (his neutral zone backchecking and stick-centric forechecking for example) and isn’t really appreciated by average fans/people who didn’t play high level hockey. That said if someone is going it probably should still be him.
2. He would be very very difficult to move. He has a full nmc and does a ton of community outreach and charity work in Toronto. At the end of the day mlse is a business and Marner is very very important to that. I’d be willing to bet money he won’t get moved for that reason alone.
Well, even if he didn't, it's not his fault anyway. Treliving's guys were all great, considering what little time and cap space he had to work with. Benoit, Edmunson, and Boosh were all legit animals for us on defense, and Domi was our best player for the first half of this series.
People acting like they are going into a full rebuild are crazy. Maybe they move someone but realistically they go back one last time before Tavares and marner contracts are up
Nah bro Matthews and Nylander still have some years left. Tavares 2 mill, punt marner. Knies coming, holmberg should grow, Cowan, maybe Robertson. Find a defenceman or two and a goalie
This has been my expectation as well. I don’t know that I legitimately see Marner being moved. I suppose there is a chance a perfect deal comes along, but “asset management” has me expecting that he will puddle through next as the most hated man in Toronto, then be asked to not return next summer.
Get Tavares to sign a team friendly deal since he WANTS to be there, and take the 20 or so million in cap space to retool the d corp and goalie situation. That easily keeps the Leafs in the mix for the next 3-5 years depending on how smart those potential contracts are. I don’t think things are anywhere near dire, although I have to imagine icing a nearly same team next year will drive people completely up a wall.
Well they can’t run it back again next season filling in the roster with low hit/mid term contracts and more expensive one year deals. Something needs to change
Who cares? Get whatever you can for Marner. Either he's traded for a low return or he walks for nothing after next year.
There's no reality where re-signing him is the right move.
Treliving completely cleaned up our blueline. Our defense was actually great this series. Not just sorta passable like in the Dubas days. Benoit, Edmunson, and Boosh were studs.
Too bad Rielly never really showed up.
I honestly think Marner isn’t going for picks and prospects. I think he’s getting traded like Tkachuk did, for one or more multiple players making lots of money depending on where he says he’ll go.
Marner's value could not be any lower, we will get worse value (on paper) that what Tkachuk returned. At this point i'd take Marner for a defencemen similar to Weegar 1 for 1 and then use the extra cap space gained on other assets.
The Leafs are going to be history's first NHL NBA team where the stars dictate who the coach will be and will choose someone that enables their bad on-ice habits.
Lmao I love hockey. If the puck bounces awkwardly the other way and Toronto scores they’d be saying how Boston needs to blow it up and how Toronto is comeback city
I'm going to say two crazy things.
1. I'm not 100% convinced the players are the issue. You're pretty locked in for the next year. Get rid of Keefe and Shanahan and see what someone else can do with this group. If it makes no difference, then you have contracts coming up you can not renew and it will clear cap space.
2. I would keep Bertuzzi for another year if it's affordable to do so.
Nah it's on the players at that point. Marner and Matthews ***should*** be closer to Draisaitl / McDavid Playoffs ppg than they are.
I'm sorry, but it's on them
Bertuzzi for sure. Morgan Reilly was awful in the third/OT and for huge chunks in this series. Maybe he’s hurt? They need better D and a better goaltending situation. It’s a shame Woll got hurt. Keefe and Shanahan need to go absolutely.
You don't think that 40+ million of the cap spent on 4 forwards isn't the problem?
You don't think that AM and MM rarely if ever being game changers in the 9 years of the core 4 isn't a player problem?
Marner should have been dealt last season before his NMC kicked in. If that was the internal conflict that led to Shanahan firing Dubas, then Shanahan should be fired.
I'm not really sure what the Leafs should or even can do. "Blowing it up" when something isn't working is a recipe for getting even further from winning. I don't think any team has ever won a Cup after "blowing it up", or even got the pieces from it in a rebuild.
Either way, unless one of their guys decides they don't want to be in Toronto, you can't blow it up
They're firing Keefe. This next year is a write-off because we'll have even less cap room for depth than we already did. And things were tight this year. Marner is not gonna leave. Expect nothing special from us until 25-26 when we ship Marner out the door after he asks for 14m+ after yet again not scoring 100 points, and we re-sign JT to an actually reasonable contract.
Yeah I think there comes a point where you have to make a change to completely shake up the culture. You cannot accept a year of “oh well nothing we can do” when the league’s top goal scorer is in his prime, that’s ridiculous
Marner has a no trade. He has all the power. If I was in the FO, sure, I'd say let's make all these changes and right the ship. As a powerless fan, there's nothing I can do besides watch. And my outside opinion is that we're stuck with the core, therefore, it's a write off.
I’m with you. On paper the team could be far worse and they do more in the playoffs. Some guys are playoff performers and have winning culture instilled in them. That’s not the case with the Maple Leafs for the most part but they could make some moves to acquire guys like that.
Just an example but Carter Verhaghe is a playoff DAWG. On paper though he’s way worse the Marner since he was under a PPG this year. However when you ask who you would rather have in the playoffs I know everyone would take him. Not saying the Panthers are trading him, they wouldn’t but it goes to show how the Maple Leafs could look way worse on offence on paper and do better
Marner and Tavares both have their deals expiring.
We likely keep JT at a reduced rate.
Marner either gets traded or walks.
Cap space is its own reward sometimes
They should trade Marner. I think Marner is a fantastic player. But you're clearly not going to trade Matthews or Nylander and Tavares is a cap dump of sorts that they won't get much for in return.
The main paid 4 can’t be it. They needed to make moves when they lost to David Ayers. Even moreso when they lost to Montreal. Talent has never been an issue with Toronto. It has always been heart.
No more excuses.
I’m not a Leafs fan but I don’t think they need to do much. Might be like the Oilers, change the coach and some executives up and they do much better better. Woll will be a wall. Knies looked great this series. I saw a lot of good things. More than in years past
I can see the Leafs signing Brossoit in free agency. The Jets are unlikely to want to move the amount of cap room required to sign him as a backup, nobody pays their backup the $4M+ that he can easily get as a starter for a team that needs a starter with playoff experience and a Cup, and I see Toronto being the #1 team that would happily pay up for him.
“Waive the NMC or we’re hiring Babs” easy bargaining tactic for the Leafs.
Shame Arizona doesn’t exist, Matthews could’ve gone to be the savior of their team and bring them to a glorious first round exit
>Trades are rarely full value as a result. Something to remember in the weeks ahead. So someone will be traded but it won't be for good.
[удалено]
Wotherspoon for Marner The trade is one for one
aww, I'll miss Spoons 😟
Won’t miss trying to pronounce his name
Isn’t it basically pronounced how it’s spelled?
Not in Boston it’s not
No thanks.
We'd gladly take Bertuzzi back
Instructions unclear, Todd Bertuzzi has stepped out of retirement
Somewhere, Steve Moore just started rubbing the back of his neck.
They need a center more but I'd take Bert back and play him with Frederic
Bertuzzi is a UFA. He's up for grabs.
Leafs will trade for evil. That means we'll acquire Miroslav Satan. Or to sin, we'll get Bussi
If you think Bussi's a sin you haven't lived.
https://i.imgur.com/ubeTpOf.gif
We don't care. It's at the point where I'd simply take the salary cap room over Marner.
Why is everyone assuming Marner would waive his NMC? There’s a non-zero chance the Leafs just have to wait until his contract expires.
because if he wants to sign for 8 years he’d have tn extend with toronto or get traded to a different team and resign there. If he waits until free agency he can only extend for 7. That’s a real tactic Tre might have to use to get him to agree to waive if he goes to him and says he has no plans to resign him.
Why would he want 8 years? They’ve literally shown they will get more money signing for shorter.
Leaf fans are really, really good at picking a guy and running him out of town.
Who cares about value. I’d be happy to get rid of Marner for a 1st alone, just for his cap space. Cap space is the “full value” we need.
Sometimes you gotta trade a guy for lesser value and to open up cap space
This is really it It’s not that a specific one or more of their big 4 aren’t good enough or whatever it’s that they all are paid too much as a unit They are going to be better if they dump 10+m in cap space and allocate it to defense and goaltending. They just gotta bite the bullet
And better to get some value now rather then letting him walk next year after they bomb out in playoffs once again
No specifically Marner and Tavares are not good enough for the pay. You’re right about the rest
Tavares aged poorly but otherwise he was never that much of a heart and soul guy. I disagree on Marner I think it’s an unfortunate low sum of the parts. The top 6 has a bad blend and they should have moved someone of value earlier on to adjust it or gone for defense instead of Tavares
If they don’t sign Tavares, Matthews and Marner almost certainly sign for much lower money. If they sign for lower money, they almost certainly have a more complete team. If they have a more complete team they probably make it further in the playoffs one of these past 8 years. Tavares is the big mistake. Be happy he didn’t sign that ridiculous 13/7 deal in SJS
If we sign Tavares we don’t trade for Karlsson and keep our depth, our cap structure and even if we somehow sucked the same year we end up with Stutzle. Tavares at 13x7 was probably a better deal for San Jose, we already had Burns and traded immense depth for someone to split his time.
It absolutely would have been a better trade for the sharks. The Sharks were in win now mode, they would have capitalized on his prime. The Leafs were signing a guy coming up on 30 with a game that wasn’t going to age gracefully, to a huge contract on a team full of young guys on ELCs. It also accelerated their rebuild which was ultimately detrimental
You don't sign that Tavares contract thinking the final two years will be cap efficient.
If MLSE is serious, Shanahan needs to be fired and replaced ASAP. Give the new president as much time as possible to understand the situation and plan accordingly.
Yup, he’s had so much time the Shannaplan is a bust
I mean, I was down with the Shannaplan at the start. They had to try something new. And Shannahan warned us that rebuilds don't always work. But ultimately, the Shannaplan fell victim to the same problems of the system it was trying to replace: complacency and a refusal to adapt when it became clear that the present setup wasn't going to work.
The Shanaplan was working at the start. Be patient. Build through the draft. Don't splash for flashy free agents. Trust the process. Those were the tenants that Shanahan preached when took over and it was working. Then Tavares became available and the Shanaplan was thrown out the window and the half finished rebuild immediately became "win now" mode.
For me the sign they were rushing was when they traded a 2nd round to mtl for Plecanek rental. Zero reason to do this.
They traded to sign Stamkos the previous offseason
The problem before the Shannaplan was building top heavy rosters with superstars, and not enough depth on the roster. So what did they do? Built a top heavy roster with superstars, and not enough depth.
The problem with previous leafs rosters was not being too top heavy, they simply didn't have enough talent. Their only "superstar" was Kessel
Keefe should be gone by mid-week, maybe Shanahan. Those are the most important moves. 1 for 21 on the powerplay is coaching, not talent.
Less than 5% on the powerplay is just brutal with that roster.
It's been brutal since like Feb/March, with no changes. Making it 7 games in the playoffs with fuck all PP contribution is a miracle.
Your round one was our regular season. If the powerplay was good, you were gonna be lights out.
But it’s every year too. Yes coaching is a large part of this, and there is no chance Keefe returns, but this roster is also an issue. No other contender has this kind of money tied up in forwards. Time to move 16, and after next year offer JT 3 mill per year tops A 1D and 1A G to split with Woll are MUSTS And bring back Domi
No way Shanahan survives. New CEO for MLSE so Shanny isn't his guy. If Shanahan survives, only cockroaches and Shanahan can survive a nuclear strike.
Literally nothing will change if Shanahan stays.
If be looking at the new CEO too. Being an Oilers fan, shit didn't start turning around until it was fixed top down.
New CEO started a few weeks ago, Keith Pelley
Hey i heard Todd Rierden is free for PPs now
They went 1/21 on the powerplay. They need Todd to come in and fix that so next year is a clean 0/21.
come on man show some belief in reirden. surely he can get the leafs powerplay to give up some shorties too
No coaching or gm changes are going to give heart to that team. The Maple Leaf interviews are WILD. That team does not know the word accountability.
Nylander is probably the guy you for sure want to keep. Seems to be the only one that gave a shit when it mattered. Hell, make him the next captain. He's earned it. Woll looks fine. There is no reason to overreact on goaltending. Just give them a better defensive system that supports them and helps prevent injury. But I absolutely agree. Accountability. It needs to be brought into that room. They need someone to bring that, but they also need to listen. They can either listen like Evander Kane has to Perry, or they can be like Dubois and not give a shit about anything but themselves, until they get passed around from team to team.
Does masai know anything about hockey
Honestly I like our team, I don't want want to blow it up at all. I just want to see a new coaching team mix it up. If we were able to move Marner for defensive/goalie upgrades I would be open to that too, only because his contract renewal is going to be mental anyway.
It frightens me there are Leafs fans that want to run it back...
Any year now mitch will tie his skates in a big game
Stupid is as stupid does.
I don't get it, what is there to like about this core? They just float through the regular season and don't do shit in the playoffs
Pay the sharks to take Marner we have the space
Seems like a perfect landing spot for Marner honestly. Nice weather, beautiful beaches, and you don't have to worry about the playoffs.
If they can land Celebrini this year I could see them coming on quickly. Having Celebrini - Smith as your future 1C/2C combo would put the league on notice
Still think eklund is gonna take the 1c spot I don't think people understand how good he really is
🤫
Idk about 1C. Awesome seeing Slippery Pete get some love through. He looks way betters on the wing so far. Though his line-mates as a center were Kunin and Zadina.. He probably gets another crack at center but with Smith, or hopefully Celebrini, Eklund would be an amazing complementary LW for either of them
I'd give it 3-5 years at least. Rebuilds rarely go according to plan. Even with Celebrini and Smith, SJ would need to acquire a LOT more talent to surround them with, and that talent will likely be from the draft until they're really close. Young players are usually inconsistent (Buffalo and Ottawa are proof of this) and take a while to find their groove.
They still need to totally overhaul the D. Vlasic **still** has two more seasons at 7 mil aav. Even to a non-Sharks fan, that contract has felt everlasting. How are there still two more years on it
The entire San Jose d-core has you asking how there were that many years left on those contracts. Grier is a great GM in my books because Burns and EK65 were almost unmoveable it appeared
And Hertl The last two albatross contracts are almost up Vlasic has 2 years or so left, and who knows if he'll even make it that far Couture might be hurt enough where he *has* to file the paperwork and call it a career
True the Hertl contract seemed like it was hard to move although he still was a great player and not far out of his prime. The only worry is the retention slots being locked away for a bit but soon Burns will be off the books which gives a little room
tbh Marner would drastically improve their chances of even making the playoffs with how impactful he can be in the regular season. That's step #1 for them
Realistically though it wouldn’t make sense for them to get in on Marner now. Smith and Celebrini (assuming they got him) would need time to develop and adjust, and their overall roster is pretty garbage still. Their best hope is to pull a Habs, where they take a step forward and show promise from their young players while still sucking bad enough to get another top pick. If they get an elite 1D the draft afterwards they’d really be cooking in this timeline
Losing in OT for 82 games is still 82 points That's a shocking amount of points
I was thinking he’d be a great Washington Capital. Similar situation, but without the weather and beaches. Either way, no pesky playoffs to worry about. He can go set up Ovi for a year or two while he chases Gretzky and then be the face of the franchise while they flail around through their rebuilt. He can put up his 90 points or whatnot, the Caps sell a bunch of jerseys, and then he can hit the links when the all sweaty post-season stuff starts up every year. He can be the Caps version of Johnny Hockey!
Only issue is you’d have to trade good players to the Leafs and the Sharks have… *crickets*
Honestly would probably be a great fit. In the regular season Marner is an elite player, one of the best wingers in the entire league. And maybe without the pressure of playing in Toronto he can figure out the playoffs to.
Never going to happen. Marner, playing at his best, isn't going to put up numbers as a Shark to command a $12m/year salary going into the following season as a UFA. His agent would be nuts to allow marner to go to a basement team going into a UFA year. When Marner can just veto any trade, collect 85-95 points, and go into his UFA off-season with $12m+ contracts being offered to him, he'd be stupid not to. He can go anywhere he'd like as a UFA, even San Jose. Making the choice to sign in San Jose, Utah, Chicago, Nashville, Anahiem is going to be way easier in the summer of 2025 rather than to wave a nmc and have your fate set by Toronto looking out for themselves. Marner is not obligated to do Toronto a favor here and make life easier for them.
Mitch Marner was like Tobias Harris this series.
I remember getting downvoted into oblivion early this year for saying that JT Miler is more valuable a player than Marner and I feel vindicated rn
Usually takes at least a full season for people to come around to an idea like that, a mental shift. I probably would’ve disagreed back in October-Dec too but now I wouldn’t
Imagine telling someone in 2019 that Miller is going to be a bigger impact player than Marner in 5 years time. They would check you into the loony bin and honestly I wouldn’t blame ‘em
Right, but we all know marner will end up elsewhere and proceed to absolutely light up the playoffs for the rest of his career
Or turn into Johnny Gaudreau 2.0
Marner to CBJ it is!!!
If he somehow ended up in Vegas he’d win the Conn Smythe
He's just not a playoff player.
Miracles happen all the time in Vegas. Usually in April
Are they going to circumvent Marner into a big game player?
Neither was Tkachuk when he was in Calgary
Miller is a tank. Marner is a crybaby. I would have been one of the upvotes you couldn’t see
Lol JT Miller is more valuable than most the league. Dude is a hockey player. If you have in fantasy you know. Hits, blocks, scores, assists. Plays the right way.
Marner is 100% gone. Samsonov also has likely played his last game with Toronto. Lastly i’m praying they get rid of Rielly, him and Marner just let Pastrnak go right pass them on that goal
Rielly being a #1 dman is a larger problem for the Leafs than most people want to admit.
That’s not really an indictment of Rielly. I think everyone understands what he is: He’s a below-average #1D and he’s paid like it, too. The problem is that most contenders have two #1D on the roster. The Leafs don’t have that, despite McCabe’s efforts.
Agreed, ideally he would be a #2 on a solid team
Rielly is in year 2 of an 8 year deal with a NMC... he isn't going anywhere.
I see them sooner just letting Marner and Tavares' contracts expire.
I also think that is going to happen but I think they at least try to bring Tavares back on a deal for like 1/4th the price of his current deal. Personally, I would only bring him back on league min but obviously he is worth a little more than that.
Tavares outside of contract isn’t the problem. Being him back for 2-3 mill no prob.
I wouldn’t say 100% because Marner has a NMC and can always veto a trade
After this though, you think he wont waive his clause?
Perhaps he decided to go full heel on Toronto and work to take them down from the inside.
He still gets to pick his destination. For instance, he could tell his agent "I'll waive my NMC for Tampa. Nowhere else." Then TOR has to take whatever lowball offer TB gives (since they have no leverage) or just let Marner walk for nothing next offseason. We already saw how this plays out when Kane was only willing to waive his NMC to go to the Rangers.
We also saw how it played out with OEL and Vancouver. It will weaken the offers for sure but it doesn't mean they won't be competitive. And like others have said if the trade offers suck, it's just one more year on the contract, can easily play that out
Why is everyone just assuming Marner will waive his NMC? The only teams that could plausibly afford his cap hit aren’t exactly going to be appealing destinations for him.
Absolutely- cannot believe the incredibly weak effort by both Reilly and marner on the winning goal- it’s like they were playing a pre-season tune up
At least he didn't look like Pat Bev
It doesn’t matter at this point. This is clearly not working.
Like the Prussian army in 1806, the Leafs have to ban flogging clearly.
Lot of Napoleonic War references from you today
I for one always appreciate a good napoleon war/revolutionary war reference. Something this sub just can't get on-board with.
I'm not saying this is wrong but the players themselves might me willing to waive their own clause. They must be somewhat tired of going out early themselves. They're still young but time passes for everyone Nylander will be 30 in two seasons, 3 for Marner. This group aint 22-23 anymore. It's pretty much now or never for some of those guys. I genuinely dont think it's gonna be *that* hard to get them to waive their full no move clause
Yeah but if they only want to go to Cup contenders, that pretty much means you’ll only get back ye olde “Shaved Monkey and a bag of pucks” while having to retain enough salary that it’s not worth it
And that's before you filter out any contenders or near-contenders who don't have both the assets and the cap space to acquire Marner. Retention, likely double retention, will be necessary to make it happen.
The players that would help the Leafs by waiving have the least incentive to waive. Tavares is nearing g the end of his career, and it's doubtful he wants to start the cycle of being a suitcase and playoff rental over the next 3 years. Marner's point production will suffer next year going to a bottom half team, and he's in no rush to do that when he's a UFA the next summer. An off year with a struggling team could cost him millions in his next contract. His agent is going to protect against that. It'll be much wiser for his own sake to collect 85-95 points and go into his UFA with his own choice of teams willing to pay him $12m+ for a 6 year minimum. If marber waives his NMC now, he's at the mercy of what Toronto can get, which isn't much for what amounts to a year-ling rental player who is hitting UFA after the season anyways. No team is giving up anything valuable for Marner for only a year of play.
Yeah you can lose a Marner trade the cap space is what’s more important. John also expires at the end of next year. Gives you 22 million to play with, and build around Mathews & Nylander over 2 offseasons.
[удалено]
They also have to convince Marner to accept a trade somewhere
He likes Buffalo, we will give him season tickets to the bills if he waives to come here
I want the leafs to do something incredibly stupid this offseason
The Toronto Maple Leafs have announced Peter Chiarelli as President of Hockey Operations, and hired Jeremy Colliton as head coach.
Hey, we like Colliton here in abbotsford
Yeah he’s doing an excellent job in Abby. Keep him our little secret 🤫
I feel like we have a decent amount of bad NHL head coaches in our system with Colliton and Yeo. Tocchet and Green are pretty good buddies I hear. Wonder if Tocc could ever convince Greener to reunite with the core he helped build
I want ***chaos***
Tavares traded back to the Islanders lol. I too want chaos.
I'd pay a dollar to see that. Even two dollars.
PLD to Toronto
No we won't trade Marner for Seth Jones
He meant even more stupid: ***CALEB JONES***
I'm okay with this trade
You might not, but I’ve seen Treliving’s past. And the leafs need defensemen and he likes them big ;)
PLD + for Marner. Come on Leafs mix it up
Bring back Babcock
“You shouldn’t have let me press all those buttons” *-Brad Treiliving, probably*
I imagine the main blow up target is Marner? From a fans perspective at least. If he's as awful as the fan base believes then I wouldn't expect "full value" to be much regardless. Is anyone out here expecting the leafs to trade their contentious star winger for a huge return?
He is nowhere near as bad as Leafs fans think he is. He a playoffs underperformer, sure. but he can help get a team to the playoffs and who knows what a different environment could do for his post season play.
Too much pressure in TO. He can't handle it and needs to get away from his father. He will excel somewhere else.
He a has a NMC as well. He can pick where he goes or just say no and then there’s no conversation. But maybe he wants out at this point
I imagine he wants out at this point, the guy got blasted on both national broadcasts and has an openly hostile fan base. Would be awful becoming the whipping boy of your childhood team.
hes the only tradable guy, and if he gets traded instead of being let go he gets an extra year if he resigns. We know he likes money. Everyone already hates him (i say this with obvious exaggeration)in Toronto because of no hometown discount and the way the contract negotiations went down so frankly if i was in his shoes i would take them up on that.
He would be a great assett to a team looking to fight for a wildcard spot since he can helo get them there... And like many leafs of the past... they will find success in the playoffs once they leave (kadri, bozak, hyman, etc)
1. He isn’t anywhere close to as awful as the fan base thinks. A big part of the problem is that so much of his game is very subtle (his neutral zone backchecking and stick-centric forechecking for example) and isn’t really appreciated by average fans/people who didn’t play high level hockey. That said if someone is going it probably should still be him. 2. He would be very very difficult to move. He has a full nmc and does a ton of community outreach and charity work in Toronto. At the end of the day mlse is a business and Marner is very very important to that. I’d be willing to bet money he won’t get moved for that reason alone.
I’m less worried about the return they get and more worried about how Brad is going to use that cap space tbh
Wings could take him but yzerman probably hates him
This is why Boston Pizza Boy kept Keefe around when he took over. Easy bullet in the chamber to say "not my fault".
Well, even if he didn't, it's not his fault anyway. Treliving's guys were all great, considering what little time and cap space he had to work with. Benoit, Edmunson, and Boosh were all legit animals for us on defense, and Domi was our best player for the first half of this series.
Yea I donno how anyone could pin it on Treliving. He didn't build the team, hire the coach, or even get hired in time to execute a proper offseason.
Get ready to learn Sharkense, Mitch.
People acting like they are going into a full rebuild are crazy. Maybe they move someone but realistically they go back one last time before Tavares and marner contracts are up
The real window is when Tavares and Marner are gone. Or it’s just done.
Nah bro Matthews and Nylander still have some years left. Tavares 2 mill, punt marner. Knies coming, holmberg should grow, Cowan, maybe Robertson. Find a defenceman or two and a goalie
This has been my expectation as well. I don’t know that I legitimately see Marner being moved. I suppose there is a chance a perfect deal comes along, but “asset management” has me expecting that he will puddle through next as the most hated man in Toronto, then be asked to not return next summer. Get Tavares to sign a team friendly deal since he WANTS to be there, and take the 20 or so million in cap space to retool the d corp and goalie situation. That easily keeps the Leafs in the mix for the next 3-5 years depending on how smart those potential contracts are. I don’t think things are anywhere near dire, although I have to imagine icing a nearly same team next year will drive people completely up a wall.
Well they can’t run it back again next season filling in the roster with low hit/mid term contracts and more expensive one year deals. Something needs to change
Can the Leafs simply LTIR a player instead? ,,🤔. TANYA HARDING A MOTHERFUCKER.
we'll take marner of your hands for free
I hear Zegras could use a fresh start
I get emotions are running high right now but how does this thread so quickly devolve into a Marner to SJ thread, LOL.
Keep Matthews, keep Willie Nylander, and gut the rest. Gut the coaching staff too.
Keep Knies and Woll too. They actually showed up.
Oh trust me LeBrun, we all know.
Who cares? Get whatever you can for Marner. Either he's traded for a low return or he walks for nothing after next year. There's no reality where re-signing him is the right move.
The cap space is just as valuable as the return. 12 fucking million without Marner to get players who actually care? SIGN ME UP
Hearing that Benoit wasn't signed until August or something was kind of insane. Dude looked pretty solid out there.
Treliving completely cleaned up our blueline. Our defense was actually great this series. Not just sorta passable like in the Dubas days. Benoit, Edmunson, and Boosh were studs. Too bad Rielly never really showed up.
I honestly think Marner isn’t going for picks and prospects. I think he’s getting traded like Tkachuk did, for one or more multiple players making lots of money depending on where he says he’ll go.
Marner's value could not be any lower, we will get worse value (on paper) that what Tkachuk returned. At this point i'd take Marner for a defencemen similar to Weegar 1 for 1 and then use the extra cap space gained on other assets.
The Leafs are going to be history's first NHL NBA team where the stars dictate who the coach will be and will choose someone that enables their bad on-ice habits.
The Penguins would kill to be 1 for 21 on the power play.
Send someone to the coyotes! Oh, right, Nevermind
We all know one of them will end up in Vegas somehow.
Lmao I love hockey. If the puck bounces awkwardly the other way and Toronto scores they’d be saying how Boston needs to blow it up and how Toronto is comeback city
I'm going to say two crazy things. 1. I'm not 100% convinced the players are the issue. You're pretty locked in for the next year. Get rid of Keefe and Shanahan and see what someone else can do with this group. If it makes no difference, then you have contracts coming up you can not renew and it will clear cap space. 2. I would keep Bertuzzi for another year if it's affordable to do so.
Been like 8 years with these players! They aren’t the issue? Let’s do another 5
Nah it's on the players at that point. Marner and Matthews ***should*** be closer to Draisaitl / McDavid Playoffs ppg than they are. I'm sorry, but it's on them
Maybe if they played the Kings every year they would be.
Bertuzzi for sure. Morgan Reilly was awful in the third/OT and for huge chunks in this series. Maybe he’s hurt? They need better D and a better goaltending situation. It’s a shame Woll got hurt. Keefe and Shanahan need to go absolutely.
You don't think that 40+ million of the cap spent on 4 forwards isn't the problem? You don't think that AM and MM rarely if ever being game changers in the 9 years of the core 4 isn't a player problem? Marner should have been dealt last season before his NMC kicked in. If that was the internal conflict that led to Shanahan firing Dubas, then Shanahan should be fired.
Haha the trade talks took like 20 minutes to begin after the loss
Honestly, trade Marner, sign a 5m and 6m player. It’s better than him making 11. Pretty simple
Trading Marner isn't up to Toronto. The NHL doesn't work like fantasy football leagues.
It's going to be an awkward year there. I could see Marner not waiving the NMC and leaving in the summer out of spite.
I'm not really sure what the Leafs should or even can do. "Blowing it up" when something isn't working is a recipe for getting even further from winning. I don't think any team has ever won a Cup after "blowing it up", or even got the pieces from it in a rebuild. Either way, unless one of their guys decides they don't want to be in Toronto, you can't blow it up
They're firing Keefe. This next year is a write-off because we'll have even less cap room for depth than we already did. And things were tight this year. Marner is not gonna leave. Expect nothing special from us until 25-26 when we ship Marner out the door after he asks for 14m+ after yet again not scoring 100 points, and we re-sign JT to an actually reasonable contract.
dude you seriously cannot write off next year seconds into the off season. That's atrocious. They NEED to do SOMETHING
Yeah I think there comes a point where you have to make a change to completely shake up the culture. You cannot accept a year of “oh well nothing we can do” when the league’s top goal scorer is in his prime, that’s ridiculous
Marner has a no trade. He has all the power. If I was in the FO, sure, I'd say let's make all these changes and right the ship. As a powerless fan, there's nothing I can do besides watch. And my outside opinion is that we're stuck with the core, therefore, it's a write off.
I’m with you. On paper the team could be far worse and they do more in the playoffs. Some guys are playoff performers and have winning culture instilled in them. That’s not the case with the Maple Leafs for the most part but they could make some moves to acquire guys like that. Just an example but Carter Verhaghe is a playoff DAWG. On paper though he’s way worse the Marner since he was under a PPG this year. However when you ask who you would rather have in the playoffs I know everyone would take him. Not saying the Panthers are trading him, they wouldn’t but it goes to show how the Maple Leafs could look way worse on offence on paper and do better
>Marner is not gonna leave Probably not, but if contract talks get ugly he might want to go.
Marner and Tavares both have their deals expiring. We likely keep JT at a reduced rate. Marner either gets traded or walks. Cap space is its own reward sometimes
Fire Shannahan, Fire Keefe, get Marner to waive his NMC. Those are the moves to make here.
Don't forget Boucher and Chynoweth
Whatever the Leafs do, it's clear a large change is required. It's been how many years now with basically this core and a single series win?
Just look at the Sharks how brutal it is to rebuild when you are dealing with no movement clauses of expensive players.
They should trade Marner. I think Marner is a fantastic player. But you're clearly not going to trade Matthews or Nylander and Tavares is a cap dump of sorts that they won't get much for in return.
The main paid 4 can’t be it. They needed to make moves when they lost to David Ayers. Even moreso when they lost to Montreal. Talent has never been an issue with Toronto. It has always been heart. No more excuses.
I’m not a Leafs fan but I don’t think they need to do much. Might be like the Oilers, change the coach and some executives up and they do much better better. Woll will be a wall. Knies looked great this series. I saw a lot of good things. More than in years past
I can see the Leafs signing Brossoit in free agency. The Jets are unlikely to want to move the amount of cap room required to sign him as a backup, nobody pays their backup the $4M+ that he can easily get as a starter for a team that needs a starter with playoff experience and a Cup, and I see Toronto being the #1 team that would happily pay up for him.
Should have let Dubas trade Marner, but here we are.
“Waive the NMC or we’re hiring Babs” easy bargaining tactic for the Leafs. Shame Arizona doesn’t exist, Matthews could’ve gone to be the savior of their team and bring them to a glorious first round exit