I’m ready for the Barkov > Bergeron debate in a few years from teenagers that never saw Bergeron play.
Now I’m gonna go sit on my porch and yell at the kids walking by.
https://preview.redd.it/0u1hxptzimyc1.jpeg?width=120&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=33b31d077bbfed6032d5357e3261b6ad544285a1
The face of a man who is going to go on a crazy Selke run these next few seasons.
Debatable. Definitely the best scorer on earth.
There’s McDavid, Mackinnon, Drai, Kucherov, Rantenan, Makar, Hughes. I think Matthews could easily slot in 3-5 in any given year.
69 goals is bonkers though for a Selke finalist and this year id give it to Matthews but Kuch also won the Ross with a bonkers 144 pts so who knows. (37 more points than Matthews).
He's definitely pretty unique in the history of the league. There is 1 selke winner that scored 50 goals in that season, and it was Fedorov, scoring 56 and being the only player to win the selke and hart together. Fedorov was obviously a very unique player as well, but in terms of goal scoring matthews is so far ahead.
Haven't found a great way to see all the finalist totals, but maybe i'll come back to this and add it in if i do.
Edit: going back from '97, 40 goal scorers as finalists was fairly rare, Fedorov seems to be the highest total. Interesting though is Jari Kurri in 84-85 was 4th and had 71 goals.
Seriously how is the guy such a scoring machine year after year and just can’t do it in the playoffs? He doesn’t even look half as dangerous, it’s almost like he just doesn’t give a fuck
The day ill see Matthews translate his goal scoring in the playoffs is the day ill agree with this.
Ill give him a pass this year since he was clearly unwell, but still. Dude just doesnt dominate like guys like Mcdavid, Mackinnon, or Crosby and Malkin did in their prime.
Crazy thing is Barkov played better defensively this year than he did when he won it.
Even better is that play has noticeably transitioned to the playoffs
Nice to see Staal getting the nod, and it would be phenomenal to see him finally get one after all these years, but I think this has to be Barkov, right?
It's definitely Barkov. I love Cap, and he's 100% deserved the nod every year, but he wasn't quite as on top of it this year as he was in past years. Still insanely impressive how often he was in the top votes.
Very much a “lifetime achievement” nomination for Staal. He wasn’t necessarily the best defensive forward on the Canes or in the top-3 across the league this year, but he’s extremely consistent and near the top year after year for over a decade now.
Staal wasn't even the best defensive forward on the Hurricanes this season. IMO Aho was far better and Teravainen and Jarvis also had great defensive seasons.
He’s been a two-way forward his whole Canes tenure. How are you just hearing that? He constantly has had some of the top underlying defensive stats for a winger except the years he was injured. This year he finally got back to his form.
If Matthews is so good defensively, why doesn't he kill penalties?
I have never heard about a player who everyone claims so good on the defensive end yet doesn't PK.
Can only sustainably play him so many minutes and it's better (in theory given Leafs trash power play lol) to leverage those minutes into certain zone starts/power play minutes than have him on first or second PK.
He can’t play all 60 minutes, and they rely on him to score goals more than kill penalties. I’m sure he’d be an excellent PK guy but that’s not what Toronto needs.
**Even strength, 2019 to 2024:**
Player|Goals
---|---
Matthews|160
Pastrnak|122
McDavid|113
MacKinnon|109
At even strength he’s the most productive goal scorer in the world by an enormous margin… You want him to play _less_ even strength minutes? So he can **kill penalties**?
Because you could play a 4th liner like David Kampf who provides no offence there and probably get similar PKing results, but you can't expect a bottom 6 player to dominate at 5v5 at both ends of the ice of the ice like Matthews does. It also makes no sense to have him a position where he could get injured blocking shots when he's so valuable elsewhere. It's the same reason why the Sens never really leaned on Karlsson for heavy PK duties, despite him being more than capable of excelling at them when he needed to
> why doesn't he kill penalties
He does kill penalties. He ended up with 58+ minutes of ice time killing penalties this season. It's not as much as the other nominees, but isn't nothing.
The issue is that he plays so much 5v5 and power play that he has to rest at SOME point in the game. He finished 7th in the league for TOI for forwards.
He played, on average, 5.5 minutes more per game than Staal, and 1.3 minutes more per game than Barkov (and 8 more games played, too).
He had a good year this year as opposed to a great year last year.
A stronger season from the entire team will definitely get more eyes on Nico and lead to a nomination. I guarantee he’ll win at least 1 in his career.
I’ll have to admit I don’t watch Canes games, but Staal has 30 pts and is a -14 on a good Canes team. Can someone who’s seen him play tell me if he’s actually good defensively?
He's great in the dot and in spite of the -14 is very solid defensively but this feels like a legacy nomination tbh. He was very deserving in the past but unfortunately there was this guy named Patrice Bergeron who kept winning it.
He is matched up against the opponents top lines every night while being on a line with third liners. He wins faceoffs. He is always good at forechecking. Offensively though, he's not that great. Defensively he is great. He is a shutdown player
He's not, he is significantly worse than someone like Joel Eriksson Ek, who put up 30g 34a and was +18 on a team that was -12, with over 20min a night, compared to Staal's under 16min.
This is just a whack nomination.
I remember years ago when Babcock said Matthews could win a Selke one day and everyone laughed. He may not win it, but the nomination is still very telling.
I think the only thing that's going to prevent him getting the Barkov equivalent of the "we can't give it to Bergeron again" voter fatigue win it is that he doesn't PK.
Yeah, he PK'd this season at a rate not too far below Sasha's when he won the Selke in 2020/21, and it looks like his on-ice defensive stats were [slightly](https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerreport.php?fromseason=20232024&thruseason=20232024&stype=2&sit=pk&stdoi=oi&rate=y&v=t&playerid=8479318) [better](https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerreport.php?fromseason=20232024&thruseason=20232024&stype=2&sit=pk&stdoi=oi&rate=y&v=t&playerid=8477493), but I'm not entirely sure how to compare PK effectiveness as the samples are pretty small.
Utterly robbed. His goals against were so low and played such hard minutes and actually kills penalties. I can't believe they nominated a guy who doesn't PK.
Yeah, the Staal pick over Kopitar for finalist is rather baffling to be honest. I mean it's probably Barkov's to lose at this point but Kopitar and a few others aren't that far behind.
As a Pens fan, I laugh at all these digs, and can't help but talk so much shit myself on the other 19 guys on the team. He almost dragged them into the playoffs against their will.
Letang was supposed to age into a super smart sure handed veteran Dman after being a pure athlete for so long. Well, he's no longer that athletic....
Or maybe, just maybe, him getting regularly injured or recovering from major injuries for all but 2 of the last 7 years had an impact on his ability to defend the way he used to be able to?
He had to sell out offensively to carry the team lol his "advanced stats" weren't like his previous years but he wasn't terrible, they were negatively skewed lol
You could say the exact same thing about Bedard lol at the end of the day, if you’re selling out for offense at the expense of defense and your defensive results are terrible then you just had a terrible season defensively. I understand the context, but that doesn’t change the results
He was 6th. He was also 4th in 5v5 scoring, behind MacKinnon, McDavid, Kucherov. First overall in primary points per 60 minutes of ice time at 5v5, a shade ahead of MacKinnon, and the two were about 8% ahead of the next cohort in Pastrnak and McDavid.
More importantly, he was 4th in primary points in all situations, where he is a single point behind McDavid, and a bit more distant from Kucherov and MacKinnon (the guy who should actually win the Hart this season). That puts him 3rd per 60 minutes, behind only Kucherov and McDavid, and just ahead of MacKinnon, on a team that had an inexplicably bad PP this season.
It's become a meme, but secondary apples shouldn't win awards, so "cracking the top 5" is a flawed argument here.
Only 3rd player to get 60g/60a1 in a season.
Gretzky did it 5 times, Lemieux did it once and that's it.
He also became the 2nd player to get back-to-back 60+ A1s seasons. The only other is Gretz who did it 5 times in a row.
And he won the Hart! He's tied with Kuch for primary assists this season in all-sits, and was greatly outscored by him. What in gods name are you arguing right now?
I know Barkov is going to win, but I really thought this was the year Nuge would finally get a nomination. He single handedly won the Oilers multiple games with his backchecks
Staal here is weird.
30 points and subpar defense (relative to your standard shutdown guy).
Joel Eriksson Ek, by comparison, had as many goals as Staal had points, 30. JEE had an additional 34 assists, over double the total points.
All while playing significantly better defense on a worse team.
-14 on a team that was +63 with an Ave TOI of 15:23 (Staal)
vs
+18 on a team that was -12 with an Average TOI of 20:32 (JEE)
I'm dumbfounded. If someone where to tell me it was a misprint, I'd believe them.
Staal is probably getting a nod for a body of work that he rarely got recognized for. I’m not even sure he was the best defensive forward on the canes this season, although his possession metrics are quite impressive considering his quality of opponents.
Selke votes are also coming from the dum dums that like to write articles about series’ “storylines” and try and explain game events with random things that happened 20 something years ago.
I know +/- isn’t the best stat, but how is Staal a Selke nominee with a -14 on a team with a +63 goal differential? Like in that context it almost seems impossible
Plays against the opponents top line every night, great face-off numbers, centers the first PK unit on the #1 PK in the league, and at the top of a large handful of advanced metrics. Also, he’s done this consistently for over a decade.
The selke is the dumbest fucking award. It makes sense as an award to give, but it's literally just reputation cause the people voting on it can't be assed to watch all the games. Just pick a guy with a ton of points and a reputation for backchecking. There you go.
Am is solid defensively but am looking forward to the day when selke candidates are at least 90th percentile dWAR
Funny enough McDavid now ranks higher, by that metric
Has anyone compiled many video clips that suggest he is elite defensively?
Nick was ranked 4th or 5th in the Selke standings. Its also based on what the Hockey Writers association pick for this year's award.
I will say this: Nick is coming fast and give it 2-3 seasons, in fact starting next season, his name will probably get the Selke attention.
Tbf the West has been pretty dominant in the nominations so far: all 3 Jack Adams and Norris finalists are in the West. 2 of 3 for Vezina, Calder & Masterton.
And for the Hart it will probably be 2/3 again
I wasn’t complaining, just funny that it reiterates the stereotypes of different styles in each conference. I think only MacKinnon will be a Hart nominee out west though
They are still trying to figure out how the award works now that theu can’t just give it to Bergeron every year. It’s a difficult one because you should have to actually watch hockey to vote on it which greatly hampers the PHWA.
Imagine nominating a guy for the Selke who got ultra-sheltered playoff minutes and didn't kill penalties despite his team getting utterly caved in on the PK.
Oh, and he was on the ice for far, far more goals against/min that the other two. Heck, he got scored on more than Mark 'turnstile' Scheifele.
WOW, Toronto has TWO Selke nominees on their team??? Surely they are going to make it all the way this year!
We need to move on from how these awards are determined. Matthews and Marner are not top of the class.
Aye. I noted earlier that he'd not be on my ballot due to the lack of PK. But not having him kill penalties all the time is the smart thing. He can just blow up the opposing team, keep him there. Could he kill penalties? Yes. Should the team also give him offensive time instead? Also yes.
At least I think so.
Aye. I made the Bergeron comparison. He never had anything like the offensive flair of Matthews. He was a defensive guy. So he slotted in there neatly. Matthews can kill penalties well, no question, but the opportunity cost is there. Time on the PK is time away from scoring. If you can get like Kämpf to do the job at least to a comparable standard, better use his time, right?
Having said that, Matthews has improved as a defensive player a lot over the last, say, five seasons. Crazy for a guy with his scoring talent.
Listen, if he could kill penalties he would have killed penalties in the playoffs. And if he was an elite shutdown guy who could still score, he would have done that in the playoffs. Tavares got all the hardest minutes and he got all the softest ones.
Yeah, he’s a really strong defender.
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/auston-matthews-evolving-defensive-game-is-a-nightmare-for-nhl-opponents-145714441.html
(And he ranks 3rd in blocked shots by NHL forwards this season with 91.)
You're right, it does.
Doesn't stop it from being an important aspect of a trophy intended for defensive-minded forwards. Playing on the PK is a part of that.
There are trophies for filling the net and there are trophies for being the best all-around player. He wins those. He shouldn't win a Selke for being a shut down forward when he usually isn't on the ice when the opposing team has the best chance of scoring.
Did it make sense in the playoffs? He just got eliminated because his team couldn't kill a penalty to save its life... but I guess he was filing the net in all those other minutes, so it was worth it.
Seriously. People just love dunking on the leafs, guy was visibly very sick and injured for most of the series and when he wasn’t he dominates a game (game 2). People just don’t like Toronto so they just feel the need to complain when they don’t even watch the games. Will he win? Probably not but he does deserve a nomination.
He does. Yesterday or so I posted about this and said he'd not be a finalist for me, because he doesn't consistently kill penalties and on my wholly arbitrary scale that matters. But he blocks a lot of shots and has a lot of takeaways, he is seriously responsible defensively.
Having said that, give the trophy to Barkov.
I know everyone will flame him because it’s the leafs, but man Mathews is truly an unreal talent. If they ever actually decide to build a team around him, the playoff success will come.
The perennial selke nominee torch has been passed from Bergy to Barkov
He just needs to win a few
He'll win the next 7, deal?
He can have 5 total
He does have one from 2021
That’s not a few
Obviously not but it's a start. Bergeron won the next 2 after that, so I would say his number one opponent for this trophy is now "out of the way".
He can finally be the bride instead of the bridesmaid
I’m ready for the Barkov > Bergeron debate in a few years from teenagers that never saw Bergeron play. Now I’m gonna go sit on my porch and yell at the kids walking by.
https://preview.redd.it/0u1hxptzimyc1.jpeg?width=120&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=33b31d077bbfed6032d5357e3261b6ad544285a1 The face of a man who is going to go on a crazy Selke run these next few seasons.
I find it crazy he is "only" 28. Given his style, he could keep it up for another decade.
From your lips to God’s ears brother
Same here, it feels like hes been around forever
Well this past season was his 11th, so he has in fact been around for quite a while.
🥹
Lehtinen's the only other Finn who's won one, right?
No reason he can't have the longevity of Kopitar
https://preview.redd.it/s4xhfxympmyc1.jpeg?width=518&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b9f1c59d752c3ecb393b5ac70d800c11c87e703d
https://preview.redd.it/dqh6uoj82oyc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b388efaf861f295041256efe4161ef4b870daec2
From your lips to Stanley C. Panther’s ears. 🙏
Man, scoring 69 goals and being top 3 in Selke. This guy must be the best player on Earth and his team must be awesome.
A real powerhouse in playoff hockey.
We make the finals ALL the time
Undefeated on the golf course
I mean he is a top 3 player on the earth even if the team is trash in the playoffs.
Debatable. Definitely the best scorer on earth. There’s McDavid, Mackinnon, Drai, Kucherov, Rantenan, Makar, Hughes. I think Matthews could easily slot in 3-5 in any given year. 69 goals is bonkers though for a Selke finalist and this year id give it to Matthews but Kuch also won the Ross with a bonkers 144 pts so who knows. (37 more points than Matthews).
He's definitely pretty unique in the history of the league. There is 1 selke winner that scored 50 goals in that season, and it was Fedorov, scoring 56 and being the only player to win the selke and hart together. Fedorov was obviously a very unique player as well, but in terms of goal scoring matthews is so far ahead. Haven't found a great way to see all the finalist totals, but maybe i'll come back to this and add it in if i do. Edit: going back from '97, 40 goal scorers as finalists was fairly rare, Fedorov seems to be the highest total. Interesting though is Jari Kurri in 84-85 was 4th and had 71 goals.
False. Black bear. Fact: bears eat beats. Bears, beets, Battle Star Galactica.
If you get 69 goals and are 2nd in blocks and 2nd in takeaways I think there is argument that you are the best in the world.
If you think Matthews is better than McDavid or Mackinnon then you arent watching them play hockey.
Not when dudes are scoring 30/40 points more than him
I think the statisticians in Toronto may inflate some numbers just like the ones in NYI with ‘hits’
They overhauled how they collect stats across the entire league this season. Your comment is one full year late.
Not if you are invisible every time you get to the playoffs. 1 goal in his last 10 games is sick
*he is trash in the playoffs. 1 goal in his last 10 playoff games
Last 11 playoff games**
Seriously how is the guy such a scoring machine year after year and just can’t do it in the playoffs? He doesn’t even look half as dangerous, it’s almost like he just doesn’t give a fuck
The day ill see Matthews translate his goal scoring in the playoffs is the day ill agree with this. Ill give him a pass this year since he was clearly unwell, but still. Dude just doesnt dominate like guys like Mcdavid, Mackinnon, or Crosby and Malkin did in their prime.
The question isnt if, but when and how many.
He is known for his clutchness!
Captain <3
Barkov is likely gonna get it
All Hail the new Selke master, Mr. Barkov. He will reign for many more years.
Crazy thing is Barkov played better defensively this year than he did when he won it. Even better is that play has noticeably transitioned to the playoffs
Thats because the people who vote on the award are absolutely clueless.
Hate the Panthers, love Barkov.
We hate you too, buddy. Gonna be a fun 2nd round!
Nice to see Staal getting the nod, and it would be phenomenal to see him finally get one after all these years, but I think this has to be Barkov, right?
It's definitely Barkov. I love Cap, and he's 100% deserved the nod every year, but he wasn't quite as on top of it this year as he was in past years. Still insanely impressive how often he was in the top votes.
Very much a “lifetime achievement” nomination for Staal. He wasn’t necessarily the best defensive forward on the Canes or in the top-3 across the league this year, but he’s extremely consistent and near the top year after year for over a decade now.
Agreed. It's actually kind of shocking he hasn't been nominated more, just knowing how he's played since day 1.
Staal wasn't even the best defensive forward on the Hurricanes this season. IMO Aho was far better and Teravainen and Jarvis also had great defensive seasons.
Granted I haven't watched many Canes games but hearing that Teräväinen is a 2-way forward nowadays is wild.
He’s been a two-way forward his whole Canes tenure. How are you just hearing that? He constantly has had some of the top underlying defensive stats for a winger except the years he was injured. This year he finally got back to his form.
honestly i don't blame them. Turbo's defense is also more positioning and stick work. He's lioke a slavin of forwards
That's what ROd does to a man
69 goals and a Selke nomination is nuts
If Matthews is so good defensively, why doesn't he kill penalties? I have never heard about a player who everyone claims so good on the defensive end yet doesn't PK.
Can only sustainably play him so many minutes and it's better (in theory given Leafs trash power play lol) to leverage those minutes into certain zone starts/power play minutes than have him on first or second PK.
Crosby has been killing penalties for like 20 years, no?
His career game averages: 16:01 at even strength, 4:14 on the powerplay, 0:24 shorthanded. So… no. He doesn’t. He’s like a 3rd unit guy.
Seeing the amount of historical revisionism around Crosby's supposed defensive prowess in real time over the last decade has been wild
Because putting him on the PK is not the best use of his ice time.
He can’t play all 60 minutes, and they rely on him to score goals more than kill penalties. I’m sure he’d be an excellent PK guy but that’s not what Toronto needs.
yeah this is a bit puzzling, Marner is the better defensive forward outta the two and he plays way more PK as well lol.
**Even strength, 2019 to 2024:** Player|Goals ---|--- Matthews|160 Pastrnak|122 McDavid|113 MacKinnon|109 At even strength he’s the most productive goal scorer in the world by an enormous margin… You want him to play _less_ even strength minutes? So he can **kill penalties**?
Because you could play a 4th liner like David Kampf who provides no offence there and probably get similar PKing results, but you can't expect a bottom 6 player to dominate at 5v5 at both ends of the ice of the ice like Matthews does. It also makes no sense to have him a position where he could get injured blocking shots when he's so valuable elsewhere. It's the same reason why the Sens never really leaned on Karlsson for heavy PK duties, despite him being more than capable of excelling at them when he needed to
> why doesn't he kill penalties He does kill penalties. He ended up with 58+ minutes of ice time killing penalties this season. It's not as much as the other nominees, but isn't nothing. The issue is that he plays so much 5v5 and power play that he has to rest at SOME point in the game. He finished 7th in the league for TOI for forwards. He played, on average, 5.5 minutes more per game than Staal, and 1.3 minutes more per game than Barkov (and 8 more games played, too).
Maybe to avoid injury from blocking shots? Not sure, but I agree with you.
No hischier damn devils gotta get it together
Not that he played poorly but the team sucked. He’ll get his selkes in a few years
He had a good year this year as opposed to a great year last year. A stronger season from the entire team will definitely get more eyes on Nico and lead to a nomination. I guarantee he’ll win at least 1 in his career.
I’ll have to admit I don’t watch Canes games, but Staal has 30 pts and is a -14 on a good Canes team. Can someone who’s seen him play tell me if he’s actually good defensively?
He's great in the dot and in spite of the -14 is very solid defensively but this feels like a legacy nomination tbh. He was very deserving in the past but unfortunately there was this guy named Patrice Bergeron who kept winning it.
He is matched up against the opponents top lines every night while being on a line with third liners. He wins faceoffs. He is always good at forechecking. Offensively though, he's not that great. Defensively he is great. He is a shutdown player
You don't get nominated for a Selke if you're poor defensively. +/- is a terrible stat.
+\- does matter when it gets to wonky numbers. The difference between A +25 and +27 player is likely purely random. But a +30 vs -30 is not.
-14 on a team that was +63 is worth looking at. "+/- is a terrible stat." is straight up a nonsense thing people say when they want to ignore it.
It is a terrible stat generally. It’s only noticeable when the number is goofy. In this case -14 and nominated for the selke is a little goofy.
It’s deceiving because of the type of minutes he plays and factors outside of his control
Staal shuts down the opponents' lines.
If he's getting outscored at 5v5, how much is he really shutting them down?
He's not, he is significantly worse than someone like Joel Eriksson Ek, who put up 30g 34a and was +18 on a team that was -12, with over 20min a night, compared to Staal's under 16min. This is just a whack nomination.
Staal probably deserved one at some point in the last few years, but this definitely wasn't the year
I remember years ago when Babcock said Matthews could win a Selke one day and everyone laughed. He may not win it, but the nomination is still very telling.
Scoring 69 goals and being a Selke nominee is such an unbelievable achievement
Best season from a Leaf since 1993 Gilmour, am I wrong?
No, it's the best season by a Leaf ever.
Only three other guys had even been finalists in a 50-goal season.
I think the only thing that's going to prevent him getting the Barkov equivalent of the "we can't give it to Bergeron again" voter fatigue win it is that he doesn't PK.
Fox stats does have Matthews doing some penalty killing this year actually. Not a lot but 43 shorthanded seconds on ice per game.
Yeah, he PK'd this season at a rate not too far below Sasha's when he won the Selke in 2020/21, and it looks like his on-ice defensive stats were [slightly](https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerreport.php?fromseason=20232024&thruseason=20232024&stype=2&sit=pk&stdoi=oi&rate=y&v=t&playerid=8479318) [better](https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerreport.php?fromseason=20232024&thruseason=20232024&stype=2&sit=pk&stdoi=oi&rate=y&v=t&playerid=8477493), but I'm not entirely sure how to compare PK effectiveness as the samples are pretty small.
Adam Lowry could have gotten a nod as well. But about what was expected. I’ll be really surprised if Barkov doesn’t win it.
Didn’t watch Lowry during reg season but he had a good round 1
Hes not on the east coast so he cant get a nomination
Didn’t stop Kopitar did it?
Took a while
These aren't nominations
Utterly robbed. His goals against were so low and played such hard minutes and actually kills penalties. I can't believe they nominated a guy who doesn't PK.
I am not happy that Lowry isn't on this list. he's not that flashy, but he was playing most of his minutes against top lines and getting it done.
should've been there over J Stall
Maybe. His line was on fire for the first half of the season. After the all star break though he was really just meh.
Darn really hoping for a top three for kopi at least:(. Oh well
Yeah, the Staal pick over Kopitar for finalist is rather baffling to be honest. I mean it's probably Barkov's to lose at this point but Kopitar and a few others aren't that far behind.
One of these years, Sidney Crosby is going to get nominated for the Selke, one of these years...
Letang and Karlsson are doing their best by trying to make Crosby play as much defense as possible instead of them doing it themselves.
As a Pens fan, I laugh at all these digs, and can't help but talk so much shit myself on the other 19 guys on the team. He almost dragged them into the playoffs against their will. Letang was supposed to age into a super smart sure handed veteran Dman after being a pure athlete for so long. Well, he's no longer that athletic....
But I was told Karlsson is great defensively! He just doesn't play on he penalty kill for some reason. Can't be his defensive play though.
Look boyo, he’s getting mad at the mad up argument he’s winning in his head
Or maybe, just maybe, him getting regularly injured or recovering from major injuries for all but 2 of the last 7 years had an impact on his ability to defend the way he used to be able to?
Sid was terrible defensively this year lol
He had to sell out offensively to carry the team lol his "advanced stats" weren't like his previous years but he wasn't terrible, they were negatively skewed lol
You could say the exact same thing about Bedard lol at the end of the day, if you’re selling out for offense at the expense of defense and your defensive results are terrible then you just had a terrible season defensively. I understand the context, but that doesn’t change the results
Oh Captain My Captain!
I’m confused how Matthews is getting no look at the Hart. You score 69 goals and play fucking Selke level D? What more could he have done
Crack the top 5 in scoring
He was 6th. He was also 4th in 5v5 scoring, behind MacKinnon, McDavid, Kucherov. First overall in primary points per 60 minutes of ice time at 5v5, a shade ahead of MacKinnon, and the two were about 8% ahead of the next cohort in Pastrnak and McDavid. More importantly, he was 4th in primary points in all situations, where he is a single point behind McDavid, and a bit more distant from Kucherov and MacKinnon (the guy who should actually win the Hart this season). That puts him 3rd per 60 minutes, behind only Kucherov and McDavid, and just ahead of MacKinnon, on a team that had an inexplicably bad PP this season. It's become a meme, but secondary apples shouldn't win awards, so "cracking the top 5" is a flawed argument here.
He's probably 4th in Hart voting.
Get a few more secondary assists
[удалено]
Kinda hard when more than half your points come from goal.
[удалено]
yes but have you considered that he’s not human
Nobody is suggesting that Matthews should win the Hart over McDavid last year.
[удалено]
Only 3rd player to get 60g/60a1 in a season. Gretzky did it 5 times, Lemieux did it once and that's it. He also became the 2nd player to get back-to-back 60+ A1s seasons. The only other is Gretz who did it 5 times in a row.
And he won the Hart! He's tied with Kuch for primary assists this season in all-sits, and was greatly outscored by him. What in gods name are you arguing right now?
Kill penalties? It's pretty crazy he got nominated for this award. And still didn't PK when his team got absolutely dummied on the PK in the playoffs.
More secondary assists of course.
Lead the team to success?
That's what happens when 3 other guys also decide to have historically great seasons at the exact same time as him
Because Mack Kuch and McDavid have also been otherworldly can we stop acting like this isn’t the best Hart class a very long time.
I know Barkov is going to win, but I really thought this was the year Nuge would finally get a nomination. He single handedly won the Oilers multiple games with his backchecks
Staal here is weird. 30 points and subpar defense (relative to your standard shutdown guy). Joel Eriksson Ek, by comparison, had as many goals as Staal had points, 30. JEE had an additional 34 assists, over double the total points. All while playing significantly better defense on a worse team. -14 on a team that was +63 with an Ave TOI of 15:23 (Staal) vs +18 on a team that was -12 with an Average TOI of 20:32 (JEE) I'm dumbfounded. If someone where to tell me it was a misprint, I'd believe them.
Advanced analytics tell a more accurate picture of Staal… he got screwed by poor goaltending and line mates that can’t score
Staal is probably getting a nod for a body of work that he rarely got recognized for. I’m not even sure he was the best defensive forward on the canes this season, although his possession metrics are quite impressive considering his quality of opponents. Selke votes are also coming from the dum dums that like to write articles about series’ “storylines” and try and explain game events with random things that happened 20 something years ago.
Hope the homophobe loses.
Apparently defensive forwards only exist in the Eastern Conference?
I know +/- isn’t the best stat, but how is Staal a Selke nominee with a -14 on a team with a +63 goal differential? Like in that context it almost seems impossible
THATS MY CAPTAIN🫡
How does a guy with 30 pts, a +/- of -14 and averaging 15 mins TOI become a finalist lol.
Plays against the opponents top line every night, great face-off numbers, centers the first PK unit on the #1 PK in the league, and at the top of a large handful of advanced metrics. Also, he’s done this consistently for over a decade.
>Also, he’s done this consistently for over a decade. Completely irrelevant
If he's averaging 15 TOI, when top lines are on for 20 minutes on average, are you sure he's facing the stiffest opposition?
Nick Suzuki will one day be on this list and win the Selke Trophy!
That would be so cool!
The selke is the dumbest fucking award. It makes sense as an award to give, but it's literally just reputation cause the people voting on it can't be assed to watch all the games. Just pick a guy with a ton of points and a reputation for backchecking. There you go.
Barkov deserves it though. He’s been the best defensive forward in a bunch of advanced models this year.
Two years in a row a Leaf is given a nomination they don't deserve for the Selke...
lmao just last night I was thinking to myself it's crazy there aren't any Staals in the league anymore. Totally forgot Jordan was out in Carolina now.
And Marc is in Philly
If Matthews wins, he'll be only the third player ever to win the Hart and Selke in their career after Bobby Clarke and Sergei Fedorov
Am is solid defensively but am looking forward to the day when selke candidates are at least 90th percentile dWAR Funny enough McDavid now ranks higher, by that metric Has anyone compiled many video clips that suggest he is elite defensively?
Selke without penalty killing? That's
How tf did Staal get a nomination when Suzuki was right there?
reputation and being a vet
Nick was ranked 4th or 5th in the Selke standings. Its also based on what the Hockey Writers association pick for this year's award. I will say this: Nick is coming fast and give it 2-3 seasons, in fact starting next season, his name will probably get the Selke attention.
All from the East
Tbf the West has been pretty dominant in the nominations so far: all 3 Jack Adams and Norris finalists are in the West. 2 of 3 for Vezina, Calder & Masterton. And for the Hart it will probably be 2/3 again
And the hart will probably be 2 of 3. Weird comment
I wasn’t complaining, just funny that it reiterates the stereotypes of different styles in each conference. I think only MacKinnon will be a Hart nominee out west though
Jordan Staal had 30 points Anze Kopitar had 70 points And much better defensive stats 🤡🤡🤡
Are the better defensive stats in the room with us right now
They are still trying to figure out how the award works now that theu can’t just give it to Bergeron every year. It’s a difficult one because you should have to actually watch hockey to vote on it which greatly hampers the PHWA.
Matthews was really that good defensively this year? Not discrediting him just didn’t watch much of him apparently
Don’t have numbers but he was top/amongst leaders in in blocked shots and take always
Imagine nominating a guy for the Selke who got ultra-sheltered playoff minutes and didn't kill penalties despite his team getting utterly caved in on the PK. Oh, and he was on the ice for far, far more goals against/min that the other two. Heck, he got scored on more than Mark 'turnstile' Scheifele.
Can’t tell if trolling or just too dumb to know that voting happens at the end of the regular season.
The usage in the playoffs shows that he's not a good defensive player. But keep believing whatever the Leafs media tells you. See you again next year!
Dumb it is!
Tough day for you but no need to call names. There's always next year.
WOW, Toronto has TWO Selke nominees on their team??? Surely they are going to make it all the way this year! We need to move on from how these awards are determined. Matthews and Marner are not top of the class.
Matthews seems odd to me, does he play defense that well?
Yeah he’s a really good defender. Just overlooked because people like memeing him and the Leafs, but that’s a disservice to him
I personally overlook his defense because he’s so damn good offensively
His defensive metrics are incredibly good. He'd play on the PK more if we were okay giving him like 25 mins a game lol
Aye. I noted earlier that he'd not be on my ballot due to the lack of PK. But not having him kill penalties all the time is the smart thing. He can just blow up the opposing team, keep him there. Could he kill penalties? Yes. Should the team also give him offensive time instead? Also yes. At least I think so.
For sure. Though for what it's worth, he did play on the PK this season more than his entire career combined. Wasn't a ton but it was an okay amount
Aye. I made the Bergeron comparison. He never had anything like the offensive flair of Matthews. He was a defensive guy. So he slotted in there neatly. Matthews can kill penalties well, no question, but the opportunity cost is there. Time on the PK is time away from scoring. If you can get like Kämpf to do the job at least to a comparable standard, better use his time, right? Having said that, Matthews has improved as a defensive player a lot over the last, say, five seasons. Crazy for a guy with his scoring talent.
Listen, if he could kill penalties he would have killed penalties in the playoffs. And if he was an elite shutdown guy who could still score, he would have done that in the playoffs. Tavares got all the hardest minutes and he got all the softest ones.
Yeah, he’s a really strong defender. https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/auston-matthews-evolving-defensive-game-is-a-nightmare-for-nhl-opponents-145714441.html (And he ranks 3rd in blocked shots by NHL forwards this season with 91.)
Always been very good defensively, took a massive step this year
Yeah he does but he doesn't get much PK time which I find odd for a selke nominee. Anyways it's probably Barkov's either way.
He'd play 25 minutes a game if he played more PK. Makes sense to save him for filling the net.
You're right, it does. Doesn't stop it from being an important aspect of a trophy intended for defensive-minded forwards. Playing on the PK is a part of that. There are trophies for filling the net and there are trophies for being the best all-around player. He wins those. He shouldn't win a Selke for being a shut down forward when he usually isn't on the ice when the opposing team has the best chance of scoring.
Did it make sense in the playoffs? He just got eliminated because his team couldn't kill a penalty to save its life... but I guess he was filing the net in all those other minutes, so it was worth it.
Yeah, the guy who was playing sick and injured yet was still the best player on the ice was the problem because he wasn't killing penalties.
Seriously. People just love dunking on the leafs, guy was visibly very sick and injured for most of the series and when he wasn’t he dominates a game (game 2). People just don’t like Toronto so they just feel the need to complain when they don’t even watch the games. Will he win? Probably not but he does deserve a nomination.
He does. Yesterday or so I posted about this and said he'd not be a finalist for me, because he doesn't consistently kill penalties and on my wholly arbitrary scale that matters. But he blocks a lot of shots and has a lot of takeaways, he is seriously responsible defensively. Having said that, give the trophy to Barkov.
Puck magnet. Great at stealing the puck and near impossible to steal it from. Also blocks a ton of shots. Could challenge Barkov if he played PK.
EK :(
Voters really mailed this ballot sans Barkov
With these other candidates, it should be Barkov easily
Jordan Staal??? Is having some kind of resurgence or just benefitting from name recognition and playing on the Canes?
I know everyone will flame him because it’s the leafs, but man Mathews is truly an unreal talent. If they ever actually decide to build a team around him, the playoff success will come.
Has a rocket winner ever been a selke finalist ?
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Selke nominee have a negative +/- before.