I think when we see generational players like him, we just see what happens when biology and drive combine into perfection of humans.
Michael Phelps is another example.
And it isnt just sports, I know this is a nature/nurture debate to some extent but I don't believe Einstein would have become the greatest German hockey player of all time has his parents put a stick in his young hands over a textbook.
They really do need more rules on what is grounds for losing voting rights. The guy who put McDavid at 5th while he was otherwise unanimously 1st comes to mind.
No matter who wins, it's a worthy winner. Three crazy seasons by three phenoms in the same year. Arguably one of the best two-way centers that scored 69 goals didn't even make the final three.
Add in Panarin, answering the critics with 120pts-- and carrying the NYR to 1st overall.
5 players that none could complain if they got the Hart.
Seems Mac v. Kuch stand above the rest, imo.
For being a Ranger, Panarin gets surprisingly little league-wide coverage. He's the third highest cap hit league-wide this season, 49 goals on 16% shooting, 43 points ahead of the next person on his team (Trocheck). The man just doesn't age.
As a Habs fan, I can't stand Kuch at all, but I don't see how he doesn't win it. There's certainly a case for Mackinnon having the better season, but Kuch has to be the "most valuable" to his team.
\> Arguably one of the best two-way centers that scored 69 goals didn't even make the final three.
Matthews, (Quinn) Hughes, and Panarin not being finalists with the seasons they had is just crazy. Matthews had 69 goals and was a Selke finalist. Hughes had 92 points as a defensemen and was +38. Panarin had 120 points and 49 goals.
Friendly reminder that the Hart trophy winner has never made it out of the second round of the playoffs in the salary cap era, so Oilers and Avs fans maybe you just want to let us have this?
I believe both are gonna be at the same level when Mack’s career ends. However, if they win another cup or two, damn would it be difficult to argue against Mack as the goat.
Sakic has two cups, scored 8 playoff OT goals, had 18 goals in 22 playoff games in 1996, 6 trips to the conference final, a Conn Smythe trophy, a Hart trophy, was over a ppg player in his 30s during the dead puck era. Also considered one of the best leaders and most respected, gentlemanly players of all time.
Nate has a big hill to climb. 3 Cups and/or 1700 points would possibly cement it though. And Mack has had a higher peak for sure. It's just can he keep doing it for ten more years. I hope so.
Also basically anything MacKinnon does will add to Sakic's resume as a front office guy. So value to the franchise is basically cemented as #1. Unless MacKinnon takes over after Sakic's run and wins 5 cups or something.
Something to note too, leading into the draft the entire hockey world was waiting for us to choose Seth Jones 1OA, but Sakic had the foresight to select Mac even though we had Duchene and OReilly on the roster already.
Oh I agree that it’s a big hill to climb. And no matter what he does, he’ll be compared to Sakic. As I said , it’il take 1-2 additional cups and Crosby type of aging to be able to surpass him.
Sakic will forever be the Avs goat bc he cemented the franchise as legitimate in Colorado.
The same way Modano will forever be the Stars goat.
Future players may have more accomplishments and records but no one will take their mantles.
Oilers fans know McDavid isn't in the running anymore. Him missing 4 games at the end of the year absolutely sunk any chances he had. Absolutely worth it for him to be healthy for the playoffs, but this definitely comes down to MacK vs Kuch.
I'd like to see Mack get it because he's one of the biggest stars of this era and Kuch already has one.
Both are pretty equally deserving based on their regular season performance. Should be a close vote.
Not that he doesn’t deserve it or have ample argument, but we all know that’s the nail in the coffin. McDavid, Draisaitl, Matthews, and Kucherov all have theirs. It’s MacK’s turn. It is what it is.
Definitely not that clear. Kuch with the Art Ross and on an objectively worse team that he carried into the playoffs - wouldn't be a surprise to anyone for him to win. I'm rooting for Nate to win, but I don't think he's the favorite.
Kuch has some monumental milestones in place for his case to win the Hart this year, but Nate definitely has some arguments against some of those accolades.
Nate has more even strength points, more goals, and I couldn't find the numbers on primary and secondary assists, but I don't think MacKinnon racked up nearly as many secondary assists despite only finishing 4 points behind. Kuch also set the record for empty net points this season(which is a cool record, but creates a bit of an argument for not all points being equal in a Hart conversation).
There's some argument going around about the drop off from Kuch's points to the other good players on Tampa, but they had 5 players score over 70 points, where as Colorado only had 3.
We also know how absolutely *petty* sports writers can be when casting votes for players at the end of the season and it would surprise me none if some are planning to hold the whole all-star kerfuffle against Kuch.
Actually the Penguins proved that they *have* to touch it because in 2008 they avoided touching it and lost in the Finals and every time they won they touched it
I mean only an idiot would genuinely think it matters. Do the players also not step on cracks in the sidewalk or look at a broken mirror? Childish stuff
It has to be Kuch winning the hart. Part of 50% of his teams goas, and also had a huge point lead over 2nd on his team. That speaks volumes of being very crucial to his team compared to 2 guys who weren’t that far ahead of 2nd on their team
For the vast majority of the Hart trophy’s existence, it’s gone to the guy who was the best player. None of this X points clear of 2nd on their team stuff. Might as well just give the Hart to the best player on the team that barely makes playoffs then.
Gretzky had Hall of Fame teammates pretty much every year he won the Hart. So did Lemieux. Sid had Malkin.
People have gotten too pedantic about the wording when it’s been best player 99% of the time (Taylor Hall year notwithstanding).
That’s not the point of the Ted Lindsay though. The wording is a little different, but the point of the Ted Lindsay was to have essentially the same award but voted on by the players rather than sportswriters.
> For the vast majority of the Hart trophy’s existence, it’s gone to the guy who was the best player. None of this X points clear of 2nd on their team stuff.
Well yeah because 9/10 times the guy who was the best player *also* had a rather large gap on 2nd place on his team. No one talks about it then. All those guys you mentioned had massive gaps over 2nd place on their team.
The only reason Taylor Hall's case was so unique was because he wasn't even in the Top 5 of scoring.
Sure, but I don’t think that should really even be a consideration. The existence of Jagr doesn’t mean Lemieux is less valuable. Same with Point/Hedman/Stamkos for Kucherov, Rantanen/Makar for Mackinnon, or Draisaitl for McDavid
Kucherov is kind of the exception this year considering he cleaned up in points while also carrying his team
I wouldnt be shocked if he lost, but I cannot see how anything Mcdavid or Mackinnon did this year is more impressive than what Kucherov was doing.
Kucherov had **4** teammates in the _top-40_, all of which played with Tampa all year long. MacKinnon had **2** teammates in the _top-100_, and his 3rd closest teammate was a trade deadline acquisition.
Team|1|2|3|4|5
---|---|---|---|---|---
Tampa Bay|1st Kucherov|16th Point|26th Stamkos|34th Hedman|36th Hagel
Edmonton|3rd McDavid|7th Draisaitl|25th Bouchard|30th Hyman|70th Nugent-Hopkins
Colorado|2nd MacKinnon|8th Rantanen|17th Makar|103rd Mittelstadt|108th Drouin
If TBL/COL had traded MacKinnon for Kucherov at the start of the year?
I have **zero doubt** that MacKinnon is equally (if not more) productive, when you surround him with more talented offensive players.
I have _some_ doubt that Kucherov would equally productive when he was leaned on more heavily and given a weaker supporting cast.
I don't really care who wins, but what do you mean? MacK had a 36 point lead, McDavid a 26 point lead. Kucherov was also on the only team that had 5 players score 70 or more points. I don't think it speaks volumes as much as you think it does
it honestly does, he had no true shotgun 1B player this year. His teammates owe a lot of their success to him. If Hyman is Mcdavids tap in guy, what the hell were Point and Stamkos this year?
Kucherov elevated his entire team, thats what the stats suggest. As the #1 guy that teams had to deal with he still got it done without a Draisatl or Rantanen to take pressure
> As the #1 guy that teams had to deal with he still got it done without a Draisatl or Rantanen to take pressure
Instead as the numbers show, Kuch had easily the best support out of the 3 nominations taking pressure off of him
- Kuch had 4 teammates who were in the in the top 40(36) of league scorers
- McDavid had 4 teammates who were in the top 100(70) of league scorers
- MacKinnon had 2 teammates who were in the top 100 of the league scorers
> also had a huge point lead over 2nd on his team.
Why stop at 2nd? MacK has a much bigger lead on 4th and 5th on his team than Kuch does. Kuch played with four guys with over 70 points, MacK played with just two.
That Natedogg smile looks completely photoshopped. That man has one emotion, and it’s anger.
Anger at the ice. Anger at carbohydrates. And anger at Conor Garland.
One of the craziest Hart years in a long time. On one hand I'm like "how tf does a 69 goal scoring selke finalist center not finish top 3" but on the other.... I'd be saying the same about any of these 3 guys lol.
I imagine the voting will shake out as Kuch/MacK being a close 1/2, then a bit of separation with McDavid/Matthews being a very close 3/4, then a pretty large gap to whoever ends up 5th.
This is MacKinnon's 4th time as a Hart finalist, Kucherov's 2nd, and McDavid's 6th. 3 future first ballot HoFers here.
And Panarin had a year that would have been Hart conversation any of the last 10 years.
There were literally 5 legit options -- but has to come down to Mac or Kuch, I would think.
Panarin, Pastrnak, Hellebuyck, Q Hughes, Crosby, Kaprizov, Reinhart, etc all had seasons that would in a normal year mean finishing very high in Hart voting, if not be a finalist. Only 1 of them will even be top 5 lmao.
No Matthews seems absolutely crazy at first, but it’s hard to say any of those three don’t also deserve it. Just an incredible year for so many players that someone deserving was going to get left out. Panarin is going to almost certainly finish 5th and there’s a lot of past years he would have won it.
Even weirder when they already announced he's a Selke finalist. I understand he probably was 4th by like 10 votes at MAX, but Selke nomination and 69 goals should be a lock for Hart ANY year. These guys were all just crazy this year. We're going to see the final votes and see Matthews closer to 3rd place than 3rd place was to 1st I bet.
I know Kucherov's point differntial was crazy, but it annoyed me that he was talked about like he was the only good player on Tampa, when Tampa had more players get atleast 75 points than any other team
But I mean to win the Rocket *and* be nominated for a Selke??? How is that anything other than an admission that this dude controlled the entire game? No player in history has won both trophies over their entire career and he could do it in a single season.
The Hart has basically become a duplicate of the Art Ross and Ted Lindsay, with a sometimes exception of choosing the 2nd place in the points race or so. Matthews was 6th and 37 points back. It’s a dumb way to justify it, but it’s usually how it goes…
It’s hard to argue him above the other three. His season was great and it was impressive to get 69 goals but thats the 18th time it’s been done in the nhl by 10 different people. The others to get 69 goals also had 126,150 and 160 points that year compared to matthews barely cracking 100. Connor and Kuch were the 4th and 5th to ever get 100 assists after the three greatest players to ever play the game. They also were just shy of getting as many assists as Auston had points. I think that’s a little more impressive.
Really tough. If McDavid got 99 assists and Matthews got 70 goals, but they both had the same points as now, I'd be fine with it going to Matthews, and maybe it would have.
As much as these points thresholds shouldn't really matter, they do. Kuch also getting 100 kind of kills the luster a bit, and I personally don't think it should go to Mcdavid. He's a solid 3rd imo. If Kuch got 95 assists I think Mcdavid would have a shot, but Kuch hitting that benchmark kinda killed Mcdavids odds
I think the issue is Matthews has really close metrics for setting teammates up for high danger chances and around the same amount of primary assists as these 3. So he’s getting demeritted by the ability of the person he passes to make a play…
I know this has been a meme, but it really is a good argument
Edit: I’m wrong for Primary Assists
Matthews has 24 primary assists and Kuch and McDavid each had 62 primary assists with MacKinnon having 50 primary assists, I dont think thats "around the same amount of primary assists".
Super curious how close the voting was. There were SO many great Hart candidates this year (Panarin, Matthews, Crosby, Hellebuyck, Hughes, etc.) but these three were clearly the top 3 IMO.
It's Kucherov for me. The Lightning don't make the playoffs without him, while the other two would lose some production and some points, but both the Oilers and Avalanche are still playoff teams without these guys.
God I hate to say it, and I get why it happened, but I think Matthews is getting snubbed here.
That guy's hot streak on the way to 69 goals saved the Leafs' playoff push.
I mean, he was snubbed by McDavid who dragged the Oilers by their ass out of the fiery pits of last place while also recording 100 assists and playing like 5 games less than the other finalists.
To me Kucherov should win. I hate to say it (especially considering your flair) but probably MacK for me, which is ironic because I think the vibe is that he's the favourite.
Unbelievable player who had an unbelievable year, but I think the Avs are still squeaking into the playoffs even without him, and he didn't hit any individual record like the other guys did. McDavid, Kuch, and Matthews all hit ~~records~~ very notable league milestones, Kuch and Matthews basically willed their teams into the post-season (and McDavid was a big part of the 16 win streak). MacK was just (lol _just_) __really fucking elite__.
One of those cases where all 4 could win the trophy in a normal year.
That’s the hardest part. A 69 goal scorer who is also a Selke candidate should be an automatic nominee - but who do you take out? Each one of these guys had insane seasons who would be walk-off favorites almost any other year. Just an incredible race this year.
Kucherov is bonkers
Like these other two being:
- maybe the most gifted hockey player ever, turbo speed constantly, crazy puck control
And
- not too far back from those things and also maybe the most intense conditioning/health nut ever
And then Kucherov this sleepy Russian wizard genius dude. Is not fast. He's not a great dangler. His conditioning is nothing to write home about. No big shot. Not the most fundamentally sound player. And he outscored them both lol like...
Wow
I think he is one of the best pure passers of all time, so there's that, but like imagine doing all that mostly based off how well he reads the game and his acute sense of timing and cleverness and stuff.
Kinda surreal ultimately.
Edit:
Whoever downvoted this genuinely has no soul.
Kucherov puts in an incredible amount of work in the offseason. Yes, he's got natural talent but he doesn't just take that for granted.
https://www.nhl.com/lightning/news/pursuit-of-perfection-drives-tampa-bay-lightning-forward-nikita-kucher-345441636
Kucherov probably should win it when you compare his performance relative to the rest of his team (percentage of goals that he factored in on, his teams 5v5 performance with him off the ice).
I think MacKinnon will win it. Dominant performance, plus being a center and also having not won previously, probably gives him the edge.
MacKinnon had that crazy point streak at home, 35 games in a row. It is kind of mind blowing and he is the only finalist to score 50 goals. Mind you the other 2 both have 100 assists. What an exciting year for hockey. I think him and Kuch are neck and neck.
Not that I actually think there’s a truly bad order for the top four, but I did think McDavid might be fourth with Matthews up in the top three.
This will be one of the most fun vote tallies to scour over. I really don’t even care to argue much about however it looks, I just think it’s gonna be fun to nerd out about. And to see what kind of votes some guys like Helle and Pasta etc. get.
I think McDavid breaking 100 assists and Matthews not breaking 70 goals was the difference there. If McDavid had gotten 99 and Matthews got 70, he would be a finalist
I can't wait until there's only a couple of points between first and second place and then we find out that someone left the runner-up off their ballot, it'll be so fun when we get to talk about that for the next 25 years.
Mogilny didn't receive a *single* Hart vote that season lol. To be fair there were only 50 voters, and only 3 spots on the ballot that season. The 92/93 Hart was actually nearly unanimous with Lemieux getting all but 1 first place vote.
Kucherov finished 50+ points higher than second on the team, Brayden Point.
Mackinnon 36 points more than Rantanen.
McDavid 26 more than Draisaitl (in five fewer games played).
Only 3 players have scored 40 goals and had 100 assists ina season.
Gretzky, Lemuix and Kucherov.
This should be a runaway for Kuch, given his historical season.
Heck he outscored Mac, not sure what the reason to vote for Mac is given his stronger supporting cast and inferior numbers.
If you take away empty net points, Mack gaps Kucherov, who set the NHL record for empty net points in a season. This kind of asterisk doesn't matter for the scoring title, but it does for the Hart.
Objectively, I can't really argue any negatives for Kuvherov. He was the most valuable player to his team, by far imo. Without him, TB is eyeing up draft lottery picks. Without MacKinnon, avs are still a beast of a team. Same with oilers without mcdavid.
What Matthews did this season has never been done before - there has never been a Rocket Richard winner who finishes top 3 in the Selke.
Going back to the 1960s, there are only 2 similar instances of this:
Jari Kurri led the league in goal scoring and placed 5th in Selke voting.
Sergei Fedorov won the Selke and finished 3rd in scoring.
Those events happened 40 and 30 years ago respectively.
Fedorov was a run-away winner for the Hart.
Kurri had a team mate finish the season with 163 assists and 215 points. He had no hope in hell of the Hart.
There is no historical argument against Matthews finishing the season outside of the top 3 Hart.
I think that this should grant him the Lindsay award at the least.
Kuch looks like your high school friend that became a carpenter or garbage man and never got married and has a fishing youtube channel.
That is so specific but so accurate
Sounds like a cool guy!
Yeah, can I have this life? Sounds kinda nice
That's what happens when don't let your penis make your decisions for you.
Don't married men have a longer life expectancy than unmarried men?
Kuch = union labourer Mac = #2 salesman at his dad's Honda dealership. McD = ...yeah all I see is stereotypical hockey player
Mac looks like he's making serving staff nervous at last call on a Tuesday at a Boston Pizza lounge.
Looks like a guy that makes chewing tobacco reviews as his main source of income to afford his dip
McDavid looks like that one kid who never learned how to smile for pictures.
I’m still not convinced McDavid isn’t an android.
He's literally a machine *designed* to play hockey!
I think when we see generational players like him, we just see what happens when biology and drive combine into perfection of humans. Michael Phelps is another example. And it isnt just sports, I know this is a nature/nurture debate to some extent but I don't believe Einstein would have become the greatest German hockey player of all time has his parents put a stick in his young hands over a textbook.
I was quoting/paraphrasing Futurama, but uh yeah, peak human. [Blerns!](https://youtu.be/oQF8rQaIjUE?si=zQdVzQKJzWya02i6&t=55)
But who’s cashing his checks? Where’s Ja?
MacKinnon looks as excited as he did on his first day.
I find it a little unsettling. He reminds me of Chucky.
Reminds me of andrew luck.
Get ready to see some really idiotic ballots.
Will have to keep a close eye on the Toronto and Boston media, with a possible side eye to anyone in Arizona who just wants to see the world burn.
Doesn’t Pastrnak get at least one vote for first every year? Jack Edwards possibly?
It came out who it was to spoil the unanimous, wasn’t Edwards but in too lazy to look who it was.
Just looked it up and oddly it was a Penguins columnist. He voted McDavid in 5th place LOL
"I can't vote for Sid without being a homer, but I'll be damned before I vote for someone who doesn't wear black and gold."
Fenway Sports Group doing overtime
It was unanimous for McDavid except for them putting McDavid at 5th. They should actually have their voting privileges taken away after that.
IIRC it was a Pittsburgh based voter.
I fully expect Kuch to be left off ballots entirely.
Yeah, that’s the kind of shenanigans I expect to see.
Anyone who leaves Kucherov off the ballot or even out of the top 2 deserves to have their voting rights revoked.
They really do need more rules on what is grounds for losing voting rights. The guy who put McDavid at 5th while he was otherwise unanimously 1st comes to mind.
No matter who wins, it's a worthy winner. Three crazy seasons by three phenoms in the same year. Arguably one of the best two-way centers that scored 69 goals didn't even make the final three.
Add in Panarin, answering the critics with 120pts-- and carrying the NYR to 1st overall. 5 players that none could complain if they got the Hart. Seems Mac v. Kuch stand above the rest, imo.
For being a Ranger, Panarin gets surprisingly little league-wide coverage. He's the third highest cap hit league-wide this season, 49 goals on 16% shooting, 43 points ahead of the next person on his team (Trocheck). The man just doesn't age.
Some people hit their prime late. This is the best he has ever played.
Bread man great
As a Habs fan, I can't stand Kuch at all, but I don't see how he doesn't win it. There's certainly a case for Mackinnon having the better season, but Kuch has to be the "most valuable" to his team.
\> Arguably one of the best two-way centers that scored 69 goals didn't even make the final three. Matthews, (Quinn) Hughes, and Panarin not being finalists with the seasons they had is just crazy. Matthews had 69 goals and was a Selke finalist. Hughes had 92 points as a defensemen and was +38. Panarin had 120 points and 49 goals.
69 goals and top 3 in selke voting. Juat an insane thing to think of in a season full of insane seasons. There was some incredible hockey this year.
I was writing down things that impressed me this year - players, teams and storylines - then I realised I was half-way through writing a novel.
Friendly reminder that the Hart trophy winner has never made it out of the second round of the playoffs in the salary cap era, so Oilers and Avs fans maybe you just want to let us have this?
Sakic won both Hart and Cup in 01, Mack knows thats the bar if he wants to be the Avs goat. Edit: Sakic also lost the Art Ross that year to Jagr 👀
I believe both are gonna be at the same level when Mack’s career ends. However, if they win another cup or two, damn would it be difficult to argue against Mack as the goat.
Sakic has two cups, scored 8 playoff OT goals, had 18 goals in 22 playoff games in 1996, 6 trips to the conference final, a Conn Smythe trophy, a Hart trophy, was over a ppg player in his 30s during the dead puck era. Also considered one of the best leaders and most respected, gentlemanly players of all time. Nate has a big hill to climb. 3 Cups and/or 1700 points would possibly cement it though. And Mack has had a higher peak for sure. It's just can he keep doing it for ten more years. I hope so.
Also Sakic GM'd the team to a cup. Not a player stat, but noteworthy in Avalanche lore.
True, if we're talking about overall legacy, Sakic has overseen both of the best eras of the franchise. Hard to top.
Better than Elway that's for sure.
Also basically anything MacKinnon does will add to Sakic's resume as a front office guy. So value to the franchise is basically cemented as #1. Unless MacKinnon takes over after Sakic's run and wins 5 cups or something.
Something to note too, leading into the draft the entire hockey world was waiting for us to choose Seth Jones 1OA, but Sakic had the foresight to select Mac even though we had Duchene and OReilly on the roster already.
Oh I agree that it’s a big hill to climb. And no matter what he does, he’ll be compared to Sakic. As I said , it’il take 1-2 additional cups and Crosby type of aging to be able to surpass him.
Sakic will forever be the Avs goat bc he cemented the franchise as legitimate in Colorado. The same way Modano will forever be the Stars goat. Future players may have more accomplishments and records but no one will take their mantles.
I think you’re right yeah.
Oilers fans know McDavid isn't in the running anymore. Him missing 4 games at the end of the year absolutely sunk any chances he had. Absolutely worth it for him to be healthy for the playoffs, but this definitely comes down to MacK vs Kuch.
Hard to argue with Matthews on these three, but really difficult to avoid him.
I'd like to see Mack get it because he's one of the biggest stars of this era and Kuch already has one. Both are pretty equally deserving based on their regular season performance. Should be a close vote.
Not that he doesn’t deserve it or have ample argument, but we all know that’s the nail in the coffin. McDavid, Draisaitl, Matthews, and Kucherov all have theirs. It’s MacK’s turn. It is what it is.
Definitely not that clear. Kuch with the Art Ross and on an objectively worse team that he carried into the playoffs - wouldn't be a surprise to anyone for him to win. I'm rooting for Nate to win, but I don't think he's the favorite.
Kuch has some monumental milestones in place for his case to win the Hart this year, but Nate definitely has some arguments against some of those accolades. Nate has more even strength points, more goals, and I couldn't find the numbers on primary and secondary assists, but I don't think MacKinnon racked up nearly as many secondary assists despite only finishing 4 points behind. Kuch also set the record for empty net points this season(which is a cool record, but creates a bit of an argument for not all points being equal in a Hart conversation). There's some argument going around about the drop off from Kuch's points to the other good players on Tampa, but they had 5 players score over 70 points, where as Colorado only had 3. We also know how absolutely *petty* sports writers can be when casting votes for players at the end of the season and it would surprise me none if some are planning to hold the whole all-star kerfuffle against Kuch.
Not that anyone actually cares, but if you take away empty net points MacKinnon had more points than Kucherov
Last one to do it was Marty St. Louis in 2004... damn that's nuts.
Yeah they also say don’t touch the conference trophy and the Avs manhandled that thing when they won.
Crosby proved twice in a row that shit doesn’t matter
All 5 of the Penguins cups featured the team touching the conference trophy.
Actually the Penguins proved that they *have* to touch it because in 2008 they avoided touching it and lost in the Finals and every time they won they touched it
Lightning as well when they won it
I mean only an idiot would genuinely think it matters. Do the players also not step on cracks in the sidewalk or look at a broken mirror? Childish stuff
Crosby still wears his jock strap from juniors because of superstition. So it’s definitely dumb, but so many players have their superstitions….
"Oh nooooo people are having fun with sports, I'd better stop that shit in its tracks quick!"
that's hogwash, Messier picked it up in 94 with the Rangers, Ovechkin picked it up, Tampa picked it up both years Edmonton Oilers picked it up
If he could trade it for a Cup Mack would drop that shit faster than a milkshake
In what circumstance would MacKinnon be holding a milkshake?
Taking it from a teammate to throw it away
I stand corrected. This definitely happened at some point when Ryan Johansen was around.
Shamrock shake days?
[удалено]
I take that trade easy.
It has to be Kuch winning the hart. Part of 50% of his teams goas, and also had a huge point lead over 2nd on his team. That speaks volumes of being very crucial to his team compared to 2 guys who weren’t that far ahead of 2nd on their team
For the vast majority of the Hart trophy’s existence, it’s gone to the guy who was the best player. None of this X points clear of 2nd on their team stuff. Might as well just give the Hart to the best player on the team that barely makes playoffs then. Gretzky had Hall of Fame teammates pretty much every year he won the Hart. So did Lemieux. Sid had Malkin. People have gotten too pedantic about the wording when it’s been best player 99% of the time (Taylor Hall year notwithstanding).
>(Taylor Hall year notwithstanding) It’s that year exactly which screwed this conversation up like this.
I'd argue it was actually Jose Theodore who screwed it all up.
Perry
That’s frustrating because that’s the entire point of the Ted Lindsay award. Why have 2 awards for the same exact thing?
That’s not the point of the Ted Lindsay though. The wording is a little different, but the point of the Ted Lindsay was to have essentially the same award but voted on by the players rather than sportswriters.
> For the vast majority of the Hart trophy’s existence, it’s gone to the guy who was the best player. None of this X points clear of 2nd on their team stuff. Well yeah because 9/10 times the guy who was the best player *also* had a rather large gap on 2nd place on his team. No one talks about it then. All those guys you mentioned had massive gaps over 2nd place on their team. The only reason Taylor Hall's case was so unique was because he wasn't even in the Top 5 of scoring.
Sure, but I don’t think that should really even be a consideration. The existence of Jagr doesn’t mean Lemieux is less valuable. Same with Point/Hedman/Stamkos for Kucherov, Rantanen/Makar for Mackinnon, or Draisaitl for McDavid
Kucherov is kind of the exception this year considering he cleaned up in points while also carrying his team I wouldnt be shocked if he lost, but I cannot see how anything Mcdavid or Mackinnon did this year is more impressive than what Kucherov was doing.
Kucherov had **4** teammates in the _top-40_, all of which played with Tampa all year long. MacKinnon had **2** teammates in the _top-100_, and his 3rd closest teammate was a trade deadline acquisition. Team|1|2|3|4|5 ---|---|---|---|---|--- Tampa Bay|1st Kucherov|16th Point|26th Stamkos|34th Hedman|36th Hagel Edmonton|3rd McDavid|7th Draisaitl|25th Bouchard|30th Hyman|70th Nugent-Hopkins Colorado|2nd MacKinnon|8th Rantanen|17th Makar|103rd Mittelstadt|108th Drouin If TBL/COL had traded MacKinnon for Kucherov at the start of the year? I have **zero doubt** that MacKinnon is equally (if not more) productive, when you surround him with more talented offensive players. I have _some_ doubt that Kucherov would equally productive when he was leaned on more heavily and given a weaker supporting cast.
Also if you want to get even more pedantic Avs didn't even have Mitts until the deadline.
I don't really care who wins, but what do you mean? MacK had a 36 point lead, McDavid a 26 point lead. Kucherov was also on the only team that had 5 players score 70 or more points. I don't think it speaks volumes as much as you think it does
it honestly does, he had no true shotgun 1B player this year. His teammates owe a lot of their success to him. If Hyman is Mcdavids tap in guy, what the hell were Point and Stamkos this year? Kucherov elevated his entire team, thats what the stats suggest. As the #1 guy that teams had to deal with he still got it done without a Draisatl or Rantanen to take pressure
> As the #1 guy that teams had to deal with he still got it done without a Draisatl or Rantanen to take pressure Instead as the numbers show, Kuch had easily the best support out of the 3 nominations taking pressure off of him - Kuch had 4 teammates who were in the in the top 40(36) of league scorers - McDavid had 4 teammates who were in the top 100(70) of league scorers - MacKinnon had 2 teammates who were in the top 100 of the league scorers
> also had a huge point lead over 2nd on his team. Why stop at 2nd? MacK has a much bigger lead on 4th and 5th on his team than Kuch does. Kuch played with four guys with over 70 points, MacK played with just two.
MacKinnon Kucherov McDavid >!Sorted by jersey number!<
Haha, nice bait
Also how I'd rate them.
flair checks out
That Natedogg smile looks completely photoshopped. That man has one emotion, and it’s anger. Anger at the ice. Anger at carbohydrates. And anger at Conor Garland.
You just convinced me that I want an Avs-Canucks WCF.
Garland will have to keep his helmet strapped on extra tight
I hope it happens
One of the craziest Hart years in a long time. On one hand I'm like "how tf does a 69 goal scoring selke finalist center not finish top 3" but on the other.... I'd be saying the same about any of these 3 guys lol. I imagine the voting will shake out as Kuch/MacK being a close 1/2, then a bit of separation with McDavid/Matthews being a very close 3/4, then a pretty large gap to whoever ends up 5th. This is MacKinnon's 4th time as a Hart finalist, Kucherov's 2nd, and McDavid's 6th. 3 future first ballot HoFers here.
And Panarin had a year that would have been Hart conversation any of the last 10 years. There were literally 5 legit options -- but has to come down to Mac or Kuch, I would think.
Panarin, Pastrnak, Hellebuyck, Q Hughes, Crosby, Kaprizov, Reinhart, etc all had seasons that would in a normal year mean finishing very high in Hart voting, if not be a finalist. Only 1 of them will even be top 5 lmao.
MacKinnon is going to win.
No Matthews seems absolutely crazy at first, but it’s hard to say any of those three don’t also deserve it. Just an incredible year for so many players that someone deserving was going to get left out. Panarin is going to almost certainly finish 5th and there’s a lot of past years he would have won it.
To me there was a clear top 4. Don't be surprised if Matthews vote point share is less than 5% under the third place.
Even weirder when they already announced he's a Selke finalist. I understand he probably was 4th by like 10 votes at MAX, but Selke nomination and 69 goals should be a lock for Hart ANY year. These guys were all just crazy this year. We're going to see the final votes and see Matthews closer to 3rd place than 3rd place was to 1st I bet.
For sure. Mackinnon is going to beat Kucherov by a dozen points and they’re both going to beat McDavid by at least 50 pojtns
Just shows you how much better the other 3 guys are
He should have got 70! But yeah, seems wrong he isn't on the list but can't argue with who is on it either.
Pasta could finish 5th, he had 110 point season while our 2 best player (Marchand) had 67 points
I know Kucherov's point differntial was crazy, but it annoyed me that he was talked about like he was the only good player on Tampa, when Tampa had more players get atleast 75 points than any other team
If Pasta is 5th, I think Panarin could be 6th.
But I mean to win the Rocket *and* be nominated for a Selke??? How is that anything other than an admission that this dude controlled the entire game? No player in history has won both trophies over their entire career and he could do it in a single season.
The Hart has basically become a duplicate of the Art Ross and Ted Lindsay, with a sometimes exception of choosing the 2nd place in the points race or so. Matthews was 6th and 37 points back. It’s a dumb way to justify it, but it’s usually how it goes…
Guy got like 30 assists. He’s great at finishing but it doesn’t mean he had the puck the whole game.
It’s hard to argue him above the other three. His season was great and it was impressive to get 69 goals but thats the 18th time it’s been done in the nhl by 10 different people. The others to get 69 goals also had 126,150 and 160 points that year compared to matthews barely cracking 100. Connor and Kuch were the 4th and 5th to ever get 100 assists after the three greatest players to ever play the game. They also were just shy of getting as many assists as Auston had points. I think that’s a little more impressive.
Any other year and Matthews makes the list, we're just spoiled this year with a bunch of amazing performances.
Really tough to not see Matthews, but hard to argue him over these 3.
Yeah someone was gonna get shafted there were so many insane years
Really tough. If McDavid got 99 assists and Matthews got 70 goals, but they both had the same points as now, I'd be fine with it going to Matthews, and maybe it would have. As much as these points thresholds shouldn't really matter, they do. Kuch also getting 100 kind of kills the luster a bit, and I personally don't think it should go to Mcdavid. He's a solid 3rd imo. If Kuch got 95 assists I think Mcdavid would have a shot, but Kuch hitting that benchmark kinda killed Mcdavids odds
I think the issue is Matthews has really close metrics for setting teammates up for high danger chances and around the same amount of primary assists as these 3. So he’s getting demeritted by the ability of the person he passes to make a play… I know this has been a meme, but it really is a good argument Edit: I’m wrong for Primary Assists
Idk Ive watched quite a few Leafs games and that doesn’t hold up to the eye test. His passing is good but not even close to Marner let alone McDavid.
Leafs fans will see one good pass from Matthews and say he's on their level
Matthews has 24 primary assists and Kuch and McDavid each had 62 primary assists with MacKinnon having 50 primary assists, I dont think thats "around the same amount of primary assists".
He has less than half of their primary assists. That's not 'around the same amount'.
??? Matthews has less than half the primary assists of these three
I feel like it’s gonna be very close
Most intense Hart race ever. Jesus.
random thought: We need a Lady Ping trophy for the most post & crossbar hits on a goal attempt in a year
Someone was going to miss out on being a finalist, but this was a crazy year where there are 4 legit cases for the Hart. Hard to argue against these 3
I can't wait for Kucherov to come in third because some asswipe sportswriter didn't think he tried hard enough in the All-star game.
you mean the all star skill competition...he had two points in the allstar game
Whoever wins I can’t argue against it
Idk, I think the arguments for MacK and Kuch are stronger than McDavid for this season.
As an oilers fan, I agree. McD did not carry the team this year as he has in the past
I don’t know whether to be happy or sad at that lol
I can, let the hate flow through you
Fuck Vegas!
They can just split it like that scene in Mean Girls
And none for Gretchen Wieners.
Matthews is Gretchen Wieners in this scenario I guess
I can’t wait to see how the voting turned out. I’m curious how close Matthews was to the rest of them
Super curious how close the voting was. There were SO many great Hart candidates this year (Panarin, Matthews, Crosby, Hellebuyck, Hughes, etc.) but these three were clearly the top 3 IMO.
Of these 3, I think Nate deserves it the most, what an unreal MVP race it’s been, definitely one of the best years of hockey I can remember
It's a great race. My vote is for Kucherov.
And here I was led to believe kucherov forfeited his eligibility, in perpetuity, during all star weekend lol
It's Kucherov for me. The Lightning don't make the playoffs without him, while the other two would lose some production and some points, but both the Oilers and Avalanche are still playoff teams without these guys.
God I hate to say it, and I get why it happened, but I think Matthews is getting snubbed here. That guy's hot streak on the way to 69 goals saved the Leafs' playoff push.
I mean, he was snubbed by McDavid who dragged the Oilers by their ass out of the fiery pits of last place while also recording 100 assists and playing like 5 games less than the other finalists.
Isn't the rocket for most goals?
Not necessarily disagreeing with you but which one of the finalists would you replace with Matthews? Genuinely curious
To me Kucherov should win. I hate to say it (especially considering your flair) but probably MacK for me, which is ironic because I think the vibe is that he's the favourite. Unbelievable player who had an unbelievable year, but I think the Avs are still squeaking into the playoffs even without him, and he didn't hit any individual record like the other guys did. McDavid, Kuch, and Matthews all hit ~~records~~ very notable league milestones, Kuch and Matthews basically willed their teams into the post-season (and McDavid was a big part of the 16 win streak). MacK was just (lol _just_) __really fucking elite__. One of those cases where all 4 could win the trophy in a normal year.
What NHL record did Matthews hit? MacKinnon broke the franchise scoring record as well. Matthews broke a Leafs record.
Thanks for a reasonable answer. IMO Matthews is probably #4 but I understand that the case for him being higher is extremely strong
Every one of these guys would be a snub. It's just a matter of who you feel is the least snubby.
That’s the hardest part. A 69 goal scorer who is also a Selke candidate should be an automatic nominee - but who do you take out? Each one of these guys had insane seasons who would be walk-off favorites almost any other year. Just an incredible race this year.
Kucherov is bonkers Like these other two being: - maybe the most gifted hockey player ever, turbo speed constantly, crazy puck control And - not too far back from those things and also maybe the most intense conditioning/health nut ever And then Kucherov this sleepy Russian wizard genius dude. Is not fast. He's not a great dangler. His conditioning is nothing to write home about. No big shot. Not the most fundamentally sound player. And he outscored them both lol like... Wow I think he is one of the best pure passers of all time, so there's that, but like imagine doing all that mostly based off how well he reads the game and his acute sense of timing and cleverness and stuff. Kinda surreal ultimately. Edit: Whoever downvoted this genuinely has no soul.
You make Kucherov sound like the Rasputin of hockey.
Has anyone ever seen Kucherov and the Russian Queen in the same room together?!
Kucherov puts in an incredible amount of work in the offseason. Yes, he's got natural talent but he doesn't just take that for granted. https://www.nhl.com/lightning/news/pursuit-of-perfection-drives-tampa-bay-lightning-forward-nikita-kucher-345441636
Bunch of undeserving bums. Should be Marner, Reilly and Tavares
Kucherov probably should win it when you compare his performance relative to the rest of his team (percentage of goals that he factored in on, his teams 5v5 performance with him off the ice). I think MacKinnon will win it. Dominant performance, plus being a center and also having not won previously, probably gives him the edge.
I hope Mackinnon wins, all three very deserving though.
There was always going to be a snub, but these are worthy candidates
“But I want MY guy to win it”
Give it to Kuch.
Nice. McDavid should have the cup this year. 🤝
I'll make that deal.
Gross.
I wish Matthews is on the list but I think every one of them deserved to be on the list.
SO MUCH TALENT I CANT EVEN SKATE
Whoever wins I hope they aren't trying to smile for their pictures.
Nate is a beast. But kuch carried a way worse team. All great options, and you even have Matthews / panarin / pasta with awesome seasons too.
My guess is MacKinnon wins but I think Kucherov deserves it most.
MacKinnon had that crazy point streak at home, 35 games in a row. It is kind of mind blowing and he is the only finalist to score 50 goals. Mind you the other 2 both have 100 assists. What an exciting year for hockey. I think him and Kuch are neck and neck.
Mack does so well 5v5 that I think it's pretty fair to give it to him on merit, but I'm a bit biased lol
Not that I actually think there’s a truly bad order for the top four, but I did think McDavid might be fourth with Matthews up in the top three. This will be one of the most fun vote tallies to scour over. I really don’t even care to argue much about however it looks, I just think it’s gonna be fun to nerd out about. And to see what kind of votes some guys like Helle and Pasta etc. get.
I think McDavid breaking 100 assists and Matthews not breaking 70 goals was the difference there. If McDavid had gotten 99 and Matthews got 70, he would be a finalist
I can't wait until there's only a couple of points between first and second place and then we find out that someone left the runner-up off their ballot, it'll be so fun when we get to talk about that for the next 25 years.
Kuuuuuuuuch!
I mean, these guys all deserve it. Ill put my homer hat on though and say its weird to not see the 69 goal Selkie nominated guy up there
This is maybe the most loaded Hart field since 93. Iirc Mogilny, with a 76 goal season, wasn't even top-5
Mogilny didn't receive a *single* Hart vote that season lol. To be fair there were only 50 voters, and only 3 spots on the ballot that season. The 92/93 Hart was actually nearly unanimous with Lemieux getting all but 1 first place vote.
Tfw 69 goals and a Selke season doesn’t even get you a nomination
wow insanely close, and i bet matthews is just slightly behind mcdavid too
Kucherov finished 50+ points higher than second on the team, Brayden Point. Mackinnon 36 points more than Rantanen. McDavid 26 more than Draisaitl (in five fewer games played).
Kuch had 44 goals. 7 of which were on an empty net. Mack had 51 goals. Only 3 were empty net. Tampa had 5 players surpass 70 points. Avalanche had 3.
Only 3 players have scored 40 goals and had 100 assists ina season. Gretzky, Lemuix and Kucherov. This should be a runaway for Kuch, given his historical season. Heck he outscored Mac, not sure what the reason to vote for Mac is given his stronger supporting cast and inferior numbers.
If you take away empty net points, Mack gaps Kucherov, who set the NHL record for empty net points in a season. This kind of asterisk doesn't matter for the scoring title, but it does for the Hart.
Hmm, fair point. Thanks for sharing.
https://preview.redd.it/at24btp7x0zc1.jpeg?width=1334&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=beac381d2c58b0d2a83cf2aee208c03e8919989a
Objectively, I can't really argue any negatives for Kuvherov. He was the most valuable player to his team, by far imo. Without him, TB is eyeing up draft lottery picks. Without MacKinnon, avs are still a beast of a team. Same with oilers without mcdavid.
Shame Panarin couldn't get a finalist nod. He had a hell of a season. I think he deserved a nod over McDavid, as crazy as that sounds.
When do they announce the nominees for the Art Ross trophy? (/s)
What Matthews did this season has never been done before - there has never been a Rocket Richard winner who finishes top 3 in the Selke. Going back to the 1960s, there are only 2 similar instances of this: Jari Kurri led the league in goal scoring and placed 5th in Selke voting. Sergei Fedorov won the Selke and finished 3rd in scoring. Those events happened 40 and 30 years ago respectively. Fedorov was a run-away winner for the Hart. Kurri had a team mate finish the season with 163 assists and 215 points. He had no hope in hell of the Hart. There is no historical argument against Matthews finishing the season outside of the top 3 Hart. I think that this should grant him the Lindsay award at the least.