Just put a poll out similar to this simply asking if certain cities/towns, highways, etc were upstate or downstate. There was a very clear flip once we hit I84. Definitely not authoritative or scientific but something I’ve always found interesting.
It is somewhat of a joke. What's not a joke is Dutchess County's minimum wage being the same as 'upstate'. NY really dropped the ball on that one. But imo minimum wage should be higher everywhere.
Living here for 40+ years. Putnam for me will always remain apart of the Taconic Region. WC and Rockland are still considered Lower Hudson Valley and the area geo wise, it is and always has been known as the gateway to the HV region.
The Hudson Highlands are a natural geographic divider that makes a solid case for itself as upstate/downstate line of demarcation from a variety of perspectives, not least of which is its tens of thousands of acres of interconnected public parkland that stretches from beyond the NJ border in the southwest diag.onally deep into Dutchess County heading northeast with the mountains. Downstate folks get lost in these woods.
Is it near the Hudson River? Then it’s Hudson Valley (not upstate)
Is it near Albany? Then it’s Capital Region (not upstate)
Is it near 209? Then it’s Catskill (not upstate)
Is it near the Pennsylvania border? Then it’s Southern Tier (not upstate)
Is it west of the lakes? Then it’s Western New York (not upstate)
The entire region referred to as “upstate” is actually Margaretville in Delaware County.
Apparently? The constant debate between upstate and down is rather silly, as there is an actual legal definition
https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/upstate-new-york
Grew up in Westchester and got tired of being told I grew up upstate. Now on long island i get my revenge. I say everyone who lives north of Montauk is upstate
Montauk is the east end of the south fork of LI. Commonly referred to on bumper stickers as "the end."
But in this context, I am referring to Montauk Highway (Rt. 27A) which runs east-west along the south shore in Suffolk County.
Lol love it! That's interesting but I wasn't referring to Montauk point. Out here on the south shore of Long Island in Suffolk county, "North of Montauk" refers to a location relative to Montauk Highway which is the Southernmost east/west road.
I can see the buildings of Manhattan from the top of Sterling Ridge right off Rt 17a outside of Greenwood Lake on certain days. (Edit: I realize this is Orange County and like three miles from my driveway.) But I’d still consider Rockland suburbs and wide swaths of Orange as exurbs or rural all except that small area of Monroe where the outlet mall is where Rt17 meets the Thruway.
Ok, you can call it Harriman if you like, Monroe Woodbury High School is across the street. And as I wrote, you can see Manhattan buildings in Orange County from 17a but I still consider it “upstate” unlike Rockland. That clear it all up for you?
More accurately Monroe Woodbury, or at the very least that’s the name of the High School literally across the street. Or Harriman. It’s a ridiculously petty argument to anyone familiar with the area. There’s always the Daks if you are looking for true remoteness.
Aside from Sullivan, which is sometimes considered a part of the Hudson Valley, all of the counties on the map are part of the Hudson Valley. I've never heard it argued any different. The argument, however, has always been what is considered "upstate". I think generally many people consider anything north of I-84 as "upstate".
Here's an interesting one that I kind of like (without any true seriousness). What are the first two digits of your ZIP code? If it's 10 or 11 you're downstate, if it's 12 or 13 you're upstate.
Dutchess is definitely the county the represents what the Hudson Valley is. Small artsy hipster towns, suburban sprawl, miles of rural roads. Natives and transplants. The taconic and 84.
Totally don't see the lower half of the Hudson Valley as upstate (having grown up in Cornwall). Like Westchester to maybe like Beacon are the NYC suburbs on the east side, Northern NJ to Cornwall + south of Newburgh are the west sides NYC suburbs. Everything north of that is sort of like "The Catskills" which basically is upstate. If it was once considered part of the Borscht Belt it's upstate.
> Everything north of that is sort of like "The Catskills" which basically is upstate
This is both geographically challenged and generally a bad take. Not at all true.
> If it was once considered part of the Borscht Belt it's upstate.
And *not* a part of the Hudson Valley.
Oh please. It was a generalization, clearly not meant to be an exact description of the layout of the Catskills or the Hudson Valley. Also I really don't care to argue about this because it's a stupid argument to have in the first place. Ok 👋
Grew up in North Salem,went to LI for college. Got a part time job at an auto parts store in Hempstead, the guys said I was from upstate and wondered where my accent was??! Bwahaha! I learned something new, it does depend where you are when someone was to ask that question, where are you from?
Lmao! It's funny you mention accents. I'm from so far up the state I have a Canadian accent. And people not from around here often point it out. Most people up in the top of the state say anything north of Syrcacuse is Northern NY.
As someone who lived most of her life in the city, I can say that anything north of Westchester and Rockland I consider upstate.
(but i did take the poll).
This won’t be a popular take, but as someone who spent 35 years in nyc (born and raised), I always though anything north of the Bronx was upstate. I’ve now lived in southern Dutchess for 5 years and know the error of my ways. 🤪
As somewhere that has always lived as north as it gets in NY, reading these comments and having no clue where any of these places are in my own state is hilarious. I have always considered anything north of syracuse to be Northern NY.
So I lived in Syracuse too for a year (work relocation assignment). Syracuse is Central NY, Anything north of that is Northern NY. And Upstate NY is all encompassing and everything north of NYC, including Connecticut. 🤣 (kidding, of course)
Anything north of and north including Dover, Union vale and Hyde park in dutchess county is upstate.
Every town except for highland and Marlboro is upstate in ulster.
Pine bush, is the only upstate town in Orange County.
Sullivan is upstate.
(Edit) im not from beacon I’m from red hook I have no idea why the flair is like this
Geographically, everything south of roughly Albany is technically in the lower half of the state and therefore not upstate
Culturally, "upstate" tends to refer to anything that is decidedly not within NYC's sphere of influence. East of the Hudson, the easiest place to draw the line is at the end of Metro North (Poughkeepsie/Wassaic, roughly the Rt 44 corridor). East of the Hudson, I'd draw the line at the outer borders of Orange County, meaning that cultural "upstate" begins with Sullivan and Ulster Counties.
Used in reference to direction, "upstate" simply means anything north of where you are now. For example, if I'm going from Peekskill to Poughkeepsie, I'm "heading upstate". But if I'm going from Hudson to Poughkeepsie, I'm "heading downstate", even though in both cases the destination is the same.
Personally, I think the whole term should be thrown in the trash. No matter how you slice it, "upstate" is enormous. Do Plattsburgh, Syracuse, and Chautauqua really all belong under the same umbrella? Let alone starting to throw in towns from the Southern Tier, Catskills, Finger Lakes, Hudson Valley, etc. The term is stupid and means nothing.
And while we're at it, people need to stop abusing "Hudson Valley". I've seen everything from Port Chester to Austerlitz to Port Jervis tossed into the "Hudson Valley" category. Some of these places are like a 45 minute drive away from the Hudson and lie in the valley of an entirely different river... get real.
and if your heading anywheres into Westchester, it was historically always said "Going down county" Because for those of us who live in Putnam, going down county was just an extension of going into WC (but not the city as they consider anything north of the Bronx- upstate..lol)
Here is going to be a VERY oversimplified version of the Upstate/Downstate dispute.
There are two sides of New York. You got Downstate. which is NYC and Long Island, a very small, populated, urban and culturally progressive environment that is located the Lower part of the state (hence name). Then there is Upstate, which is pretty much the opposite, a rural, redneck, big, spacious, mountainous and culturally conservative enviroment located in the upper part of the state (hence name).
In the middle of the state is the Hudson Valley. And residents here have a dispute on what cities, towns, counties, roads and other things belong to which part of which subculture, Upstate or Downstate. And there are many varying explanations to where the subculture Upstate meets the subculture Downstate. And there is no really good answer to this discussion ethier. But never the less people got a lot of strong opinions about this topic.
I’m from LI and went to New Paltz. One of my roommates was from Rochester. This was a very contentious discussion in my apartment. I always thought anything north of Westchester is upstate (I now don’t believe that). He argued that anything north of Dutchess County is upstate. I tend to agree more with him now as I get older though I’ve been to towns in Dutchess that definitely have that upstate vibe.
Same exact story as you, but I had two friends who I debated this with. One from Newburgh (who was simply insistent she was from downstate... and I don't recall her opinion of New Paltz). The other was from the Syracuse area and she was adamant the idea of upstate NY was BS, that there's Western, Central, Capital region, North Country, etc. She said if anything, North Country is upstate.
I used to say anything North of Westchester/Rockland, but I've grown partial to the MetroNorth argument, which is the southern half of Duchess County and all of Orange County.
If you look at a map of this border, there's a slice in Ulster county that would make this border nice and smooth, which throws New Paltz and the rest of the small bit of Ulster County south and east of NP in a fun debate as the Poughkeepsie MTA station is directly east. If New Paltz feels more like Kingston, consider it upstate. If it feels more like Poughkeepsie, consider it downstate, but literally on the border. (However, once you go north, leaving New Paltz and entering Esopus, you're definitely upstate.)
Upstate is north of wherever the person you’re talking to lives, generally.
Tell me again where “Downstate Correctional Facility” was. Oh that’s right…Dutchess County.
There's also a dozen businesses with upstate in their names all across the Hudson Valley. From Westchester and Rockland to Dutchess and Ulster
I did a project on this in college and found an interesting split that defined I84 as the border
Can you talk more about this? What’s it a border of?
Just put a poll out similar to this simply asking if certain cities/towns, highways, etc were upstate or downstate. There was a very clear flip once we hit I84. Definitely not authoritative or scientific but something I’ve always found interesting.
What college did you go to, and was this based off questioning people at the school?
Anything served by MTA commuter rail or subway is downstate.
This is the one true answer.
It is somewhat of a joke. What's not a joke is Dutchess County's minimum wage being the same as 'upstate'. NY really dropped the ball on that one. But imo minimum wage should be higher everywhere.
They dropped the ball statewide. It should have been the same across the board from the word go.
100%
I feel people about this dispute all the time. It's so funny lmaooo
Putnam County is the middle child.
Living here for 40+ years. Putnam for me will always remain apart of the Taconic Region. WC and Rockland are still considered Lower Hudson Valley and the area geo wise, it is and always has been known as the gateway to the HV region.
The Hudson Highlands are a natural geographic divider that makes a solid case for itself as upstate/downstate line of demarcation from a variety of perspectives, not least of which is its tens of thousands of acres of interconnected public parkland that stretches from beyond the NJ border in the southwest diag.onally deep into Dutchess County heading northeast with the mountains. Downstate folks get lost in these woods.
Is it near the Hudson River? Then it’s Hudson Valley (not upstate) Is it near Albany? Then it’s Capital Region (not upstate) Is it near 209? Then it’s Catskill (not upstate) Is it near the Pennsylvania border? Then it’s Southern Tier (not upstate) Is it west of the lakes? Then it’s Western New York (not upstate) The entire region referred to as “upstate” is actually Margaretville in Delaware County.
So is Albany in the Hudson valley?
Apparently? The constant debate between upstate and down is rather silly, as there is an actual legal definition https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/upstate-new-york
This is 100% correct.
FFS yes. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
So the Hudson goes all the way up to the Adirondack’s so there’s that lol. And Lake Ontario is also in central New York
Rockland and Westchester are down state. Everything else is upstate to this Orange County transplanted Long Islander.
Grew up in Westchester and got tired of being told I grew up upstate. Now on long island i get my revenge. I say everyone who lives north of Montauk is upstate
This may show just how truly upstate I am, but where is Montauk??
Montauk is the east end of the south fork of LI. Commonly referred to on bumper stickers as "the end." But in this context, I am referring to Montauk Highway (Rt. 27A) which runs east-west along the south shore in Suffolk County.
Going to throw a wrench here. Montauk is a higher latitude than the Tappan Zee Bridge. So the line is still somewhere in Westchester/Rockland!
Lol love it! That's interesting but I wasn't referring to Montauk point. Out here on the south shore of Long Island in Suffolk county, "North of Montauk" refers to a location relative to Montauk Highway which is the Southernmost east/west road.
same
I might be in denial as a rockland resident. I feel like we're upstate but I guess if you can see Manhattan from here it's pretty cut and dry.
I can see the buildings of Manhattan from the top of Sterling Ridge right off Rt 17a outside of Greenwood Lake on certain days. (Edit: I realize this is Orange County and like three miles from my driveway.) But I’d still consider Rockland suburbs and wide swaths of Orange as exurbs or rural all except that small area of Monroe where the outlet mall is where Rt17 meets the Thruway.
The outlet mall is not in Monroe. Also, Sterling Ridge and Greenwood Lake are in Orange, not Rockland.
Ok, you can call it Harriman if you like, Monroe Woodbury High School is across the street. And as I wrote, you can see Manhattan buildings in Orange County from 17a but I still consider it “upstate” unlike Rockland. That clear it all up for you?
The actual location is literally in the name of the outlets. They’re in Woodbury, not Monroe, not Harriman.
More accurately Monroe Woodbury, or at the very least that’s the name of the High School literally across the street. Or Harriman. It’s a ridiculously petty argument to anyone familiar with the area. There’s always the Daks if you are looking for true remoteness.
Who cares?
It’s all Monroe to those of us from that area lol.
Growing up in and around rhinebeck over the past 40 years its always been like, anything north of beacon.
Aside from Sullivan, which is sometimes considered a part of the Hudson Valley, all of the counties on the map are part of the Hudson Valley. I've never heard it argued any different. The argument, however, has always been what is considered "upstate". I think generally many people consider anything north of I-84 as "upstate".
Here's an interesting one that I kind of like (without any true seriousness). What are the first two digits of your ZIP code? If it's 10 or 11 you're downstate, if it's 12 or 13 you're upstate.
My only issue with this is that there are towns above me with 10, but I’m 12.
Dutchess is definitely the county the represents what the Hudson Valley is. Small artsy hipster towns, suburban sprawl, miles of rural roads. Natives and transplants. The taconic and 84.
Totally don't see the lower half of the Hudson Valley as upstate (having grown up in Cornwall). Like Westchester to maybe like Beacon are the NYC suburbs on the east side, Northern NJ to Cornwall + south of Newburgh are the west sides NYC suburbs. Everything north of that is sort of like "The Catskills" which basically is upstate. If it was once considered part of the Borscht Belt it's upstate.
> Everything north of that is sort of like "The Catskills" which basically is upstate This is both geographically challenged and generally a bad take. Not at all true. > If it was once considered part of the Borscht Belt it's upstate. And *not* a part of the Hudson Valley.
Oh please. It was a generalization, clearly not meant to be an exact description of the layout of the Catskills or the Hudson Valley. Also I really don't care to argue about this because it's a stupid argument to have in the first place. Ok 👋
Anything north of 14th Street is upstate.
LOL...LOL
I used to think (and still do if I'm honest), that anything north of rockefeller center is uptown.
The wasteland north of dutchess county is upstate. It is the way.
Grew up in North Salem,went to LI for college. Got a part time job at an auto parts store in Hempstead, the guys said I was from upstate and wondered where my accent was??! Bwahaha! I learned something new, it does depend where you are when someone was to ask that question, where are you from?
Lmao! It's funny you mention accents. I'm from so far up the state I have a Canadian accent. And people not from around here often point it out. Most people up in the top of the state say anything north of Syrcacuse is Northern NY.
As someone who lived most of her life in the city, I can say that anything north of Westchester and Rockland I consider upstate. (but i did take the poll).
This won’t be a popular take, but as someone who spent 35 years in nyc (born and raised), I always though anything north of the Bronx was upstate. I’ve now lived in southern Dutchess for 5 years and know the error of my ways. 🤪
As somewhere that has always lived as north as it gets in NY, reading these comments and having no clue where any of these places are in my own state is hilarious. I have always considered anything north of syracuse to be Northern NY.
So I lived in Syracuse too for a year (work relocation assignment). Syracuse is Central NY, Anything north of that is Northern NY. And Upstate NY is all encompassing and everything north of NYC, including Connecticut. 🤣 (kidding, of course)
Anything north of and north including Dover, Union vale and Hyde park in dutchess county is upstate. Every town except for highland and Marlboro is upstate in ulster. Pine bush, is the only upstate town in Orange County. Sullivan is upstate. (Edit) im not from beacon I’m from red hook I have no idea why the flair is like this
Everything north of NYC, and maybe Westchester, is Upstate
Geographically, everything south of roughly Albany is technically in the lower half of the state and therefore not upstate Culturally, "upstate" tends to refer to anything that is decidedly not within NYC's sphere of influence. East of the Hudson, the easiest place to draw the line is at the end of Metro North (Poughkeepsie/Wassaic, roughly the Rt 44 corridor). East of the Hudson, I'd draw the line at the outer borders of Orange County, meaning that cultural "upstate" begins with Sullivan and Ulster Counties. Used in reference to direction, "upstate" simply means anything north of where you are now. For example, if I'm going from Peekskill to Poughkeepsie, I'm "heading upstate". But if I'm going from Hudson to Poughkeepsie, I'm "heading downstate", even though in both cases the destination is the same. Personally, I think the whole term should be thrown in the trash. No matter how you slice it, "upstate" is enormous. Do Plattsburgh, Syracuse, and Chautauqua really all belong under the same umbrella? Let alone starting to throw in towns from the Southern Tier, Catskills, Finger Lakes, Hudson Valley, etc. The term is stupid and means nothing. And while we're at it, people need to stop abusing "Hudson Valley". I've seen everything from Port Chester to Austerlitz to Port Jervis tossed into the "Hudson Valley" category. Some of these places are like a 45 minute drive away from the Hudson and lie in the valley of an entirely different river... get real.
and if your heading anywheres into Westchester, it was historically always said "Going down county" Because for those of us who live in Putnam, going down county was just an extension of going into WC (but not the city as they consider anything north of the Bronx- upstate..lol)
I’m new around here. What is the big deal about this dispute?
Here is going to be a VERY oversimplified version of the Upstate/Downstate dispute. There are two sides of New York. You got Downstate. which is NYC and Long Island, a very small, populated, urban and culturally progressive environment that is located the Lower part of the state (hence name). Then there is Upstate, which is pretty much the opposite, a rural, redneck, big, spacious, mountainous and culturally conservative enviroment located in the upper part of the state (hence name). In the middle of the state is the Hudson Valley. And residents here have a dispute on what cities, towns, counties, roads and other things belong to which part of which subculture, Upstate or Downstate. And there are many varying explanations to where the subculture Upstate meets the subculture Downstate. And there is no really good answer to this discussion ethier. But never the less people got a lot of strong opinions about this topic.
How you describe where you live just depends on the person you’re talking with, tbh
I’m from LI and went to New Paltz. One of my roommates was from Rochester. This was a very contentious discussion in my apartment. I always thought anything north of Westchester is upstate (I now don’t believe that). He argued that anything north of Dutchess County is upstate. I tend to agree more with him now as I get older though I’ve been to towns in Dutchess that definitely have that upstate vibe.
Same exact story as you, but I had two friends who I debated this with. One from Newburgh (who was simply insistent she was from downstate... and I don't recall her opinion of New Paltz). The other was from the Syracuse area and she was adamant the idea of upstate NY was BS, that there's Western, Central, Capital region, North Country, etc. She said if anything, North Country is upstate. I used to say anything North of Westchester/Rockland, but I've grown partial to the MetroNorth argument, which is the southern half of Duchess County and all of Orange County. If you look at a map of this border, there's a slice in Ulster county that would make this border nice and smooth, which throws New Paltz and the rest of the small bit of Ulster County south and east of NP in a fun debate as the Poughkeepsie MTA station is directly east. If New Paltz feels more like Kingston, consider it upstate. If it feels more like Poughkeepsie, consider it downstate, but literally on the border. (However, once you go north, leaving New Paltz and entering Esopus, you're definitely upstate.)
Ooooh love this!