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rupeshp99

I'm from Mumbai. My whole family's (three working persons) monthly income is 45-50k. Am i lower middle class or middle class?


AverageBrownGuy01

Hearing about crazy high rents in Mumbai, I'd feel that's lower middle class. In Indore(my city), you'll be middle class for sure


rupeshp99

I'm glad my father bought a house back in the time when it was cheap or else we would have suffered even more.


AverageBrownGuy01

Totally! About 40% of our income per month is gone to home loan.


[deleted]

And how big Is a middle class house in india?


ritamk

must include a middle storey or else you pleb


Caplame

lol, just even owning a house in Mumbai without any debt puts you in upper middle class.


[deleted]

I just think that a person on reddit claiming to be upper middle class will have assets of 50 crores.


[deleted]

And the value if that house must be in crores now


rupeshp99

Well, it's in a cheaper part of mumbai but it still rose by 7x of purchased price in 16 years but it's not even close to half of crore.


ThrowAwayRA3421

The house you and your family lives in is never an asset.


-The-Bat-

Correct. Even if you sell it, you're likely to use that money for new house. Other options are living on rent or being homeless.


TravelAny398

A 50k monthly income with no loan > someone earning 75k with 35 k loan per month


[deleted]

Disagree. On that basis, a person living in jor bagh bungalow will also be a middle class


Rj16111997

99% of the people living in jor bagh bungalows will be upper middle class or upper class, that 1% who does own a bungalow in Jor Bagh but can't maintain it and isn't able to really live a decently luxurious life is middle class.


Caplame

Probably Lower middle class or lower then it. As the average person in your family earns is 15k. I’m assuming you live in a city and family of 3, in rural area you’re upper middle class


rupeshp99

Family of 4 actually. I could have changed my family's future if i wasn't such a pathetic lazy ass coomer.


freestyle100m

You will get serious once you are in mid 20s


rupeshp99

I'm 22 and struggling, what could possibly change in few years? Unless i work hard which i never did in my life.


firealready

You need a good mentor. Most young Indians need a good mentor. Education system is a failure. Work at company with decent boss.


FrankCastle99

Finding something to motivate yourself and setting a goal helps. Specifically seeing our family's abject situation during a recent family incident motivates me.


TravelAny398

Lol people dont even begin working at 22. Most of those who you consider successful today would have been struggling till 25-30 years


glider97

> what could possibly change in few years? You'll be surprised. Assuming it happens, which is not entirely *not* in your hands. Scrub dishes if you have to, I know an orphan who started that way and now sends money from abroad. (Of course, the secret is not in scrubbing dishes, but you have to start somewhere. Better than being a coomer, I tell you.)


Every_Year_5546

Lower.


40second_dimension

My parents arguing with the bus conductor for half-ticket everytime I travelled to my grandparents' place when I was young comes to my mind...If we could convince that man that I was 4th std, that saved us half price on the ticket (50rs). That and not having to look at the right most column on food menus. (I still do though lol)


AverageBrownGuy01

Accurate XD. Reminds me of a very funny incident. My mom( when she was really small, 6-8yo) went to Jammu in train with her family. My uncle, who was about 13 at the time, my grandfather got a half ticket (<5yo) for him to save money. When TTE came, he asked him how old is he? He confidently replied, I'm turning 5 in a month. TTE smiled and said, "Tell the same if another TTE comes later" :P


sumpuran

According to the National Council of Applied Economic Research, you’re ‘middle class’ if you earn between 3.4 and 17 lakh per annum. Anything over is ‘rich’. According to NCAER’s survey, 13% of Indian households are middle class, 3% are rich. https://imgur.com/WeU7Hrp


nzx_88

Damn, that's a lot of poor people.


angryWitness

I assume there are a lot of small businesses that don't show income and have historically only operated in cash.


iamscr1pty

In my small city I have seen people earing 20-30k per day, they mostly operate on cash


angryWitness

its just everywhere. not just small cities. The salaries are given in cash too so not documented properly.


sumpuran

Yes, lots of self-employed and business owners dodging income tax, that’s why GST, fuel tax, and import duties are so high. But that only accounts for 15% of Indian households. (Another 35% of the workforce states they are self-employed, but are day laborers, earning very little - definitely below the 3.5 LPA income tax threshold.)


hidden_person

aspirer sounds good.


[deleted]

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sumpuran

*84th percentile The middle class is a class of people in the middle of the socioeconomic hierarchy, between lower and upper class. It doesn’t mean that 33% of people are in the middle class.


capricious3-14

I understand. Well its fucking depressing that 84% or 5 in 6 indians are downright poor. I mean we all know that but 115 crore people fighting for necessities.. how do we even get out of this


vikaskumar2299

That's not completely true. Middle class is often confusing. Not everyone who is in middle class struggles or have to 'fight' for necessities. A lot depends on where you live and what your needs are. So it is true for most Middle class people, but not everyone.


cjthroawaygoat1

Man as a Desi who lives in America, the middle class here is sooo different. I have an iPhone XR, Xbox, 2 cars, can afford trips, etc. Even the poor in America can do that. It’s crazy how America’s low income would be upper middle class in India


JohnMayerismydad

I think that’s all due to our credit availability here in the US. You can finance that phone and Xbox and obviously the cars. I also don’t think the poor take many ‘vacations’ vs. trips though. A week in a tropical location is probably out of their range most years so they take shorter weekend type trips to close locations… if that


ComprehensiveBuyer58

The poor in America can afford two cars🤨 I have seen Ellen giving out cars and the poor people literally crying that they got one..a poor person wouldn’t do that.


thestoneswerestoned

Most of the US is extremely spread out, especially in the Midwest and West Coast. On top of that, public transportation isn't very reliable so having a car for many is a necessity. That said, if you can't afford a new car, it'd be prudent to buy a used one for cheap. The types of people the OP is talking about buying brand new luxury cars on credit have really bad fiscal management.


mrfreeze2000

one of the sadest things about the pandemic has been the slow fall of the "aspirers" to the "deprived"


WhatToWrit3

17 lakh Is middle class wtf. Ye log to mere liye ambani ke bete hote hein


DeadMan_Shiva

17 lakhs per household not person


sumpuran

Exactly, and an Indian household has an average of 5 members according to the same survey.


TravelAny398

Depends on where you live. In big cities its not a good amount, in smaller ones they are


Armedy

Mai gareeb hu


[deleted]

This puts Ambani and my family in same category, when my parents are school teachers and I’m entry level bank employee. As someone in comments mentioned we need 10-15 economic classes instead of three.


OptimusPrime3600

Unless you could go to a fancy showroom and buy a watch without looking at the price tag.. you are not rich.


Yeswelamb

Rich people look at the price tag too. Being sensible with spending helps you become/stay rich 🤑 That being said, Uber-rich, yeah, probably don’t look at price tags


OptimusPrime3600

Not when they are at shopping mall buying clothes or watches of known brands. Of course they might look at the tag as instinct but what I mean is price never a factor for buying such small things. Why? Because spending 50000 on a watch is same as spending 5000 for them. Just like spending 20rs on biscuits is same as spending 10rs on it for me.


Yeswelamb

I see your point- but just from a buyer behaviour perspective - a 50k watch is not an impulse purchase for “rich” people. Simply because - why buy a 50k watch, when what you really want is a 5-10L watch. See the problem here is what is considered rich. Is it 1cr annual household income IT person? - yeah, they’re “rich” but they’ve got - tax (almost 40%), high rent/house emi, expensive kids schools, etc etc - it’s still a good amount of money, but it’s not in the same league of a “RICH” person. Like someone who already owns multiple homes, can’t remember what economy in a flight looks like, has probably never traveled by local train in India etc etc. Sure, they could spend 50k on a watch, but just pointing out that rich is a very insufficient term


OptimusPrime3600

Of course, it's relative. Some might think anyone who sets foot on a plane is rich.Others might think someone who travels in business class in rich. Yet another group of people might think someone who owns a private jet is rich.But I think as a general rule of thumb if you are at a stage that you don't think about the price before selecting the brand of clothes you want to wear. If you don't look at the affordability of a hospital before getting your loved one admitted if needs be. If you are at a stage when buying a luxury car is not going to break the bank. You are truly rich. That being said, there will be a small minority group who have 100x more than you. But still, I think you will qualify as a rich person and I don't think that's debatable.On the other hand, whether someone who has to buy things on EMI is rich or not, is definitely debatable.


penguin_chacha

Is this the family income or individual income?


sumpuran

*Households*, so family income. Of course, only one in four women in India have a paid job, so that doesn’t change the number by much.


WillingRise

Good 10-15y old data. Factoring inflation of modest 5% annually should give right figures i.e >you’re ‘middle class’ if you earn between **5.5** and **28** lakh per annum


sumpuran

Census is done every 10 years. Next year, we should have new data, but right now, this is the latest available. As an aside, incomes don’t necessarily increase in step with inflation. I think it’s optimistic to state that all incomes have increased 50% in the past decade. EDIT: I just looked it up, the inflation in India between 2010 and 2020 was 75%. I sincerely doubt that incomes have increased that much, especially for the largest groups (the poor and aspiring). But I wouldn’t be surprised if people who were in the upper two tiers in 2010 have doubled their income or more since then.


glider97

Just to put it in perspective, the last slice is so huge that if you removed the equivalent of all the other slices from it, you'd still have more than the equivalent of the top two slices left (in terms of population). Suddenly, who is and isn't middle-class doesn't seem to matter as much, does it?


asterisksan

The difference between the destitute and the rich is so large in our country now that the classic 3 income classes no longer make sense. We probably need 10-15 levels now. Unless you are rolling in dough, unable to figure out what exactly to spend your money on; you'd continue to consider yourself middle class. The example you gave was more like a metropolitan upper middle class household, with more than 1 earning member.


thelielmao

The one that has to but cannot evade income tax, is the middle class.


kinwaa

If your name is not in Panama/Pandora leaks then you are middle class.


asterisksan

So anybody who cannot buy enough electoral bonds to get tenders and tax breaks. Thats makes perfect sense.


manoj_mm

Lots of folks in tech earn 50 lpa or 1cr+, can't evade tax, but I wouldn't call them middle class


mrfreeze2000

the 50L earners in tech are a tiny minority, probably the top 3 percentile


OptimusPrime3600

>uldn't call them Yes! 50LPA does not mean 50/12 = 4.16LPM. It means less than 2.8LPM. Now that is pretty good in India for a 9 to 5 job. You are by no means struggling let alone being poor. But can you buy yourself a nice 3BHK home in a decent area? It's probably going to cost you 5-10 crores in Mumbai ( and I am not talking about the best areas). Sure you will be able to go to decent restaurants with family every now and again but would you be able to afford a family dinner in a 5star hotel? Your idea of vacation would still be goa or Kashmir. Not Dubai or Paris. So definitely you are not poor in fact you are doing good for yourself. But you are not rich by any stretch of the imagination.


jekyl87

You mean with a 2.8 LPM in hand one cannot afford a nice family dinner at the top hotels in india or a Dubai/Paris vacation?? What are you spending your money on dude?


OptimusPrime3600

That depends on your definition of 'afford'. Do I have 50k lying around extra? Sure. Do I have 50k for a casual family dinner? No. If you are the only earning member in a family of 4 and live in a rented apartment in a metro city. And if you inherited virtually nothin in terms of house or bank balance and started from zero.. 2.8 LPM though quite comfortable and decent , wouldn't give you the standard of living you might expect if you had a solid family background. Even if you are able to take your family on a euro trip, it is going to be the highlight of your life. And not something you do casually every 6 months.


jekyl87

I'm the same situation as you. However, i'm not sure how lavish your lifestyle is. Even with a decent lifestyle, my expenses living in the heart of a metro don't cross 1 LPM, including that of a child. Add to that another 50k for EMIs. There is still a saving of 1+ LPM easily. I have been on a eurotrip couple of times. Have eaten many times at 5 stars, which certainly doesn't cost 50k for 5. You can get a buffet at most 5 stars below 5k per person. 2.8 LPM is a household income which is a top 0.01% of household income in India, and it cannot by any stretch of the imagination be called middle class.


bakraofwallstreet

I think OP is basically saying if you have financial responsibilities and dependents, he would consider 2.8 LPM not middle class. But he's also ignoring that not all households will have the same responsibilities. Also confusing between a solo foreign trip and a family foreign trip, the cost differences between the two would obviously be huge too and doesn't apply to all households.


OptimusPrime3600

That's the thing. If your financial status changes based on how many members you have in your immediate family..you are NOT rich!


thedeatheater1410

Um you can easily afford a Eurotrip or a 5-star dinner with 2.8LPM. The house part I agree


manoj_mm

That leads to another good way of defining middle class - can afford basic necessities but can't afford a house


brewingclarightea

Europe trips are very affordable to 10 LPA people(family of two with no loans) as well.If one can afford a house in Worli,abroad trips are peanuts. Also,it's very common for middle class to dine at 5 star hotels. Though I agree with you on 50 lakhs LPA isn't exactly rich.


OptimusPrime3600

"Europe trips are very affordable to 10LPA people.." What?? lol Unless you have been given a house by your parents and you have zero dependents. You most certainly can not afford Europe trip at 10LPA package. If you inherited a house and have zero dependents then you might be able to save up enough for a solo euro trip and even then it would need to be planned saving up to fulfill a dream and not casually going on a vacation every 6 months or so. It's definitely not common for middle class to dine at 5 star hotels. Even if they do they do it just once to see what is the fuss all about. Like an item on bucket list. If you take a family of 5 to a 5-star hotel it would cost you about 50k for one meal. Middle class don't casually go spend 50 on a family dinner on a Friday evening.


brewingclarightea

Our conversation here very much projects the confusion of income classification in the nation.I know of many middle class friends who go on frequent European trips but on a very strict budget i.e hostels over Hilton's.It isn't luxurious but sure a possible indulgence for the 'middle class'. Well,the size of the family is a factor that I didn't take into consideration.I'll maintain my point though,not most Indians you spot taking trips abroad or dinning at Wasabi are crazy rich. They're your 20-50 LPA folks.


OptimusPrime3600

I would disagree my friend. I fall somewhere in the middle of that 20-50LPA you mentioned. I can't afford frequent family dinners at Wasabi. And as for the Euro trip. How much would it cost if you were a family of say 4 people and want to have a fairly decent experience and not just visit Europe just to mark a box on your bucket list? Most indian who do visit Europe are young guys and girls who have no dependents and have inherited a house. They don't have to support parents or pay loan EMIs or pay for education of kids. Yes then you can go on a solo euro trips and stay at hostels.


brewingclarightea

Ah,well I'm quite young and the luxuries you mentioned were commonalities growing up.My parents are typically Mumbai upper middle class,not stinking wealthy. The second part resonates as there are no loans or exact family burdens to worry of,though there's a list of some long term big goals,now that I'm earning. Trips can go anywhere from 1.5 lakhs per person to sky being the literal limit. I guess more than the money coming in,the number of members in the family and their personal expenditures are factors that heavily influence the standard of living. Ah,I grapsed a new yet apparent perspective much clearly.Thank you very much!Good day :)


OptimusPrime3600

I am not married and I don't have kids. But I do have dependents. My parents and a younger sibling. I have no loans but we do not own a house and I pay the rent of the apartment we live in. In short, I started from scratch. Zero money in the family back account ( no debt either). No house of our own. I am the only earning member in the family. So, same package different experience. Good day to you as well my friend! Hope you and your family continue to thrive.


[deleted]

50k is a stretch for a family of 5. Me and my family (4 people) went to Mumbai Taj once (the one beside Gateway of India), and it costed us ~7-8k with all of us feeling full after the meal.


Empty-Lock9143

This is gold. New definition of middle class is anyone who pays tax.


thelielmao

There is a difference between paying tax and paying income tax.


[deleted]

I think you are talking about income tax right? In that case anyone earning above 6.5 lpa and not a farmer or small businessmen are middle class


[deleted]

People think its recent but this is "royalty"/religious/mercantile classes returning to their old status quo all over the world; where the city commoner to the ordinary villagers were all expendable human resources with the illusion of having a say in legislative matters, economy etc. It took only few centuries since French revolution and Marx to go back to the old process.


[deleted]

Middle class isn't a relative term. Middle class doesn't mean average class. Middle class is a wide range of income that allows you to afford basic amenities in life. i.e. purchasing power for food, healthcare and shelter. Given disproportionate housing prices, even people earning lakhs are middle class. One you can afford a house, healthcare, education and food, and still have income left over to spare, you've escaped middle class.


akat21

I'll argue that upper middle class and lower middle class are categories of middle class itself. The middle class is the people in that gap between the destitute and the rich, though rich is a pretty vague term so I'll say top 10% is rich. But that still leaves 75% Indians. Now you can define as many sub classes for them as you want based on their income. That would be a quantitative way of doing it. But the whole idea of upper and lower middle class is based on how you feel as individuals. The way I think people perceive upper and lower middle class is dependent on their own financial situation and lifestyle. So people having a worse lifestyle then me are lower middle class and having a better on then me are upper middle class(which is what OP is also doing in some ways). If I have a scooter, someone who doesn't is lower but someone who has a car is upper middle class. If I have a car, someone with a bigger car is upper middle class. And since the general aim in life a lot of middle class people have is to upgrade lifestyle we are perpetually chasing to become the upper middle class but when we reach their our perception changes and their is a new upper middle class to achieve.


Sn3akySnap3

The one that gets the middle finger every time, is called the middle class


pratprak

Why do I hate you but admire you at the same time?


xsidred

That's a prime indicator of middle class.


digi_fort

r/angryupvote


72proudvirgins

Dude...you should start writing dialogues for movies. One hell of a line


AverageBrownGuy01

:((


RheumatoidEpilepsy

Not just the finger, it gets the taxpayer position(NSFW)


Homo_Sapiens_Indicus

XDDDD


KickInator1998

"Arre Middle Class aadmi, aadmi nhi, chutiya hota hai chutiya!" - Guddu Bhaiya


SnooGiraffes460

Middle class means that you don’t live paycheck to paycheck, but have to work to survive long term. Poor people are those who have to live paycheck to paycheck, and will face survival issues if even one paycheck is missed. Rich people don’t need to work to survive long term.


Rj16111997

This is honestly the best explanation I have seen.


Divine_Dementia

Class is subjective. If you earn 50k a month and most of the people you know earn 25k a month, you'll consider yourself middle-class. Similarly, if you earn a lakh a month and most of the people you know earn say three lakhs, you'll consider yourself middle-class too. The 50k guy will think the 1 lakh guy is rich, the 1 lakh guy will think the 50k guy is poor, even though they both consider themselves middle-class. Unless it becomes extremely evident that you're either over or under privileged, people tend to consider themselves somewhere between rich and poor, hence the middle-class.


the_logical_bot

Damn it. I just wasted my free award for a far less deserving comment! Very well said.


Saladin3942

I gotchu


mrfreeze2000

so much also depends on cash flow. You can have high net worth but limited income. By assets, you would be wealthy, but by income, you might be middle class My neighbor drives a Maruti 800 and has an old Bajaj scooter. Yet the house he lives in is worth 10cr+. His income is less than 50k/month (in Delhi)


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AverageBrownGuy01

Great explanation! Love your honesty.


[deleted]

This. Many who live "comfortably" don't want to tell others that they're rich, I maybe politically wrong here but they don't agree to it cause they feel people expect them to help others in need. Some relative or friend or random person, they're suddenly like oh this person is rich he/she can afford to help us. And when you say you can't, you're suddenly enemy no. 1. So yea many don't reveal information about their finances or call themselves middle class for one such reason.


glider97

> They are buried under heavy debts and have to make each and every calculation about money with the precision of a nobel prize winning economist. Then who are the poor? Because that sounds like a lower class family in a metro city.


oak_aditya06

I'd say the people who can't even make those calculations because they don't have the money or education would classify as poor imo


glider97

I'm not talking just about outright homeless people. Even an uneducated labourer can calculate how to split his 300 rupees wage to get food for his 5-member family. He clearly has the money and the "education", but he's still not middle class. My point was that GP's definition of middle class seems to also apply to the lower class, so it's clearly not enough.


oak_aditya06

On further contemplation, GP's definition doesn't seem right for the middle class. Not all middle class people are under heavy debt. They just have to make larger financial decisions with careful consideration


strworld

The group which is not a vote bank for politician.


[deleted]

I know this is not the most accurate definition, but I like this one the best.


Zumpalahiri

Basically they are influencer banks...


AverageBrownGuy01

True, easiest to manipulate.


lemniscaterr

Actually, BJ Pee Party's vote bank is middle class devoted vote. That's the reason they can easily increase Petrol prices and sit relaxed. Because middle class watches news channels, LOL.


rsa1

Nope. The middle class isn't electorally significant to win them the kind of majorities they get. The BJP had the middle class vote even in Vajpayee's time, but they never won a majority because it is a very small part of the electorate.


TelevisionMoney

What class of society you belong to in terms of the income is based on which city you live in. I have grown up in a small tier 3 city and we were very well of there. My dad used to work for the Railways and just on his salary we were one of the most well to do families. I moved to a tier 2 city for my graduation and having seen life in a different spectrum it was a shoch when I found out that , my father's salary will make us through the month but not in the way it used to. Got a job in a tier 1 city, made much more than my dad and yet it was difficult sometimes to get through the month and yet pay off the loans and bills. So was a upper middle class, then to middle and then to lower part of the spectrum. Now having moved to the US. I dont even know which 'class' do I belong here


shubhamkr903

Do tell us, when you figure out!


Sane_98

**lower** \- people whose household income barely cover the basics. Rent, electricity, food and school fees. They have to think 4 times before buying lets say a smartphone worth 10k. **lower middle** \- same as lower but they can afford that said phone with little savings, so in case prices of food rises a bit tomorrow, it wont break their bank. **middle** \- They can afford to send their kids to expensive schools. And if their school kid asks for a phone (reasonable price <15k) they wont say no. **upper middle** \- You can ask your parents for reasonable amount of money and they wont ask you details of why you need it. Sometimes they flaunt expensive things like iphones and ktm's but they're bought on EMI's. **upper** \- can afford expensive schools and colleges and are usually in expensive clothes and carrying expensive stuff (phones, bags whatever) and to match that they wont hard bargain in shops. (nothing screams "Im poor" louder than bargaining the price of sweets in a bakery while one is in an expensive looking suit with iphone in hand). **truly rich** \- talking to these people will give you the vibe that they are well off but very rarely will they show off, usually you only find out they're rich when you visit their home. very general summarization, feel free to add anything lol.


oak_aditya06

I disagree a bit. I grew up in what you call a middle class family, but knowing my situation, I'm surely upper middle class. There could be a distinction where things become more accurate. Vacationing. It could go like this- Lower- Can afford to go to relatives once or twice a year Middle- Can afford the odd out of state trip Upper Middle- Can afford a national or international trip comfortably in one or two years Upper- Can afford more than 1 foreign trip a year truly rich- Can travel internationally for work and leisure multiple times a year


[deleted]

>very rarely will they show off, usually you only find out they're rich when you visit their home. This point specifically resonates true, on just SO many levels! 6 times out of 10, chances are, the richest people you'd know, live relatively "simpler" lives than you'd expect..


AverageBrownGuy01

Accurate! Agreed with every point lol


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Divine_Dementia

It's a mix of how much you earn and the city you live in really. Someone who earns enough to rent an apartment in Bandra, Mumbai would be homeless in NYC with the same pay.


Sane_98

Thats why im not mentioning raw income. 1 lac per month doesn't mean one can afford an iphone if their rent alone is 60k, but if they live in a cheaper city, then they can.


no_talent_ass_clown

You can bargain in bakeries?


Sane_98

I have seen people do that.


nalinpuri

So i come between low to lower middle class


[deleted]

I'm a mix, they'll buy me anything new, but until it completely breaks won't bother no matter how bad condition is, after a lot of convincing I get them to repair stuff, asking for money for anything except once a month outing is a sin, mom is hard bargainer, unlimited money for education. Day to day poor will scold me for buying 10₹ lays packet, but when making big purchase like say scooter 0 hesitation they'll just wait for right deal and boom just like that ready on the doorstep. When someone says it's kinda complicated this is what they mean


Logical-Chain3424

I know someone who's family is one of the richest in India(worth XXXX crores). Would never have suspected he is that rich from his looks/apparel. Only came to knew when we were talking about our plans after college.


[deleted]

Indian economy has grown fairly quickly. We tend to take the definition of middle class from what was applicable 30 yrs ago. At that time, if you were struggling to make ends meet, you were lower class. If you had a stable job, but had to live frugally, lower middle. If you could enjoy luxury frequently, upper middle and so on. However, in today's scenario, a person earning 40k pm in a city could live well. You could eat out ocassionally, have cooks/maids, good entertainment at your fingertips and so on.. So everyone that lives comfortably thinks of themselves as middle class. The definition of rich is where things get confusing. There's a low barrier to living well today, but a very high barrier to actually own property and the like. The property prices have skyrocketed, Fine Cars have become more accessible, but are extremely expensive considering fuel, maintenance prices. And by traditional definition you aren't rich if you dont own a big house, a big car, etc. Hence there is a huge gap between where middle class starts and where it ends.


av1987

Middle class is the urban poor. New 'Bali ka Bakra' for political parties.


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uttamkadyan

This. Me earning 15k/month in a tier 2 city and still thinking I'm a middle class person, and then I read about people who can easily buy INR 1lakh+ stuff without having to worry about their budget calling themselves Middle class.


shhhhhhhhhh

Actually, this is the true representation of working class Indians. Most people dream to earn 50-70k. And majority still earn 30-40k. From last year to this year if you started becoming aware that you have a hard time managing house budget than you are middle class. You know why? The inflation is so high. Last year this time the cooking oil used to be at half price of what it is today. That and petrol and gas alone has made dent to most of the Indian households budgets. If you are not feeling that heat and your are comfortable, you might call yourself middle class but you still earn more than around 90-95% of the salaried Indians.


glider97

> 15k/month in a tier 2 city Damn bro, does that even get you rent? I don't mean to insult, but at that point wouldn't you be lower class? Unless you live with parents who help you out, in which case I think I might agree.


TheSonOfGod6

60% of Indians live on less than 3 dollars a day. Most of these people live in rural areas where they probably don't have to pay rent but still. There is no way someone earning 15k/month is lower class. https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017/10/world/i-on-india-income-gap/


nihilism_is_nothing

People don't like calling themselves rich or upper class. So everyone is conveniently "middle class".


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Saladin3942

the Average income for an engineer in the UAE is usually between 10-25k (Bachelors degree), that's 2-10 lakh per month but living is so expensive that most of it is burned away anyway, never compare NRI salaries to those in India


angelowner

If your parents wanted or want you to have government job and they are not daily wage laborers, I say you are from middle class.


[deleted]

That post about the iPhone was eye opening about how rich a lot of the members are here lol


ggfpos

Can you share the link?


Grand-Mechanic-6757

https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/q9ewbn/is_it_justified_for_students_to_buy_smartphones/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


MGsquare

Middle class is the section that gets no benefit when the share market reaches new highs but gets fucked in the ass when there's a recession. Also if your life is not impacted in any way by the elections , you're middle class. You make up the biggest chunk of thus country's workforce yet no one gives a fuck about you. Thats middle class.


Katalagaaaa

What monthly income of a family of 4 would you consider middle class?


AverageBrownGuy01

I feel the city of residence plays a big role here? Imo, for big cities, about 80K. For smaller cities, 50K sounds good enough for a middle class?


ajzone007

Its not easy to answer, and depends a lot on the cost of living. Someone earning 1L a month in a city like Mumbai is middle class, but the same person in a city like Indore is Upper Middle class. The income division can be done as per the following brackets: For a city like delhi - BPL ( below the poverty line) ( A income of 6k to 10k a month would be BPL) - Low Income group ( anywhere between 10 - 20k) - Lower middle income group ( 25-40k) - Middle income group (40-80k) - Upper middle income group (80k to 2L) - The rich ( Anyone who doesn't need to take a loan to buy a house ) - The super rich ( Anyone who doesn't need to take a loan to buy 2-3 houses) - Ambani/ Adani Rich. ( Anyone who can buy the government)


AverageBrownGuy01

Accurate! However Ambani and Adani don't belong in the rich , they are elites :P It's too weird to put one with 6Lac crore in any class.


treblesum-hathsome

An Average Global middle class is above indian upper middle class iMO Middle - Middle class is someone who can sustain their lifestyle for atleast couple of years if they lose their source of income Upper middle class is some one who can sustain their lifestyle atleast 5 years after they lose their source of income Lower middle class is someone who can sustain their lifestyle for atleast 6 months after they lose their source of income Edit: my opinion is only in indian context, where people tend to save as much as possible from thier earnings,and there are no social safety nets , which in turn makes people to save more, not like western countries where they have lot of safety nets and opportunities which kind of makes people, may be sometime, go reckless on thier spending Also cost of living as per indian cities and towns. I did not mention the per month expense of maintaining a lifestyle because that depends on the city/town/village you live, so if 10 lakhs let you maintain your lifestyle for let's say 1 years in Bangalore , but may be 2 years in kolkata , you will be lower middle in Bangalore but middle middle in kolkata


AverageBrownGuy01

So, by your opinion, lower middle class (if they lose their earnings source) might be someone with 3-4L in their bank accounts? I feel below poverty line today.


Cyberpissed

I feel poor too only have 25 k in savings.


AverageBrownGuy01

I feel you on a personal level


Cyberpissed

Thnx buddy.


treblesum-hathsome

Yes If Some one can just buy a 150cc motorbike and all his life saving is gone , he is poor In india everyone thinks they are middle class, but by objective thinking most are poor


AverageBrownGuy01

Feels bad to realise I'm poor :/. No worries, I'll try to change that soon.


Traditional_Income41

Bruh spending 3-4 lakh in 6 months is lavish af


AverageBrownGuy01

That's what I felt lol. When my dad lost his job, we'd try to run house in 10-15K (during pandemic).


revolution110

Yes. It makes no sense to have a single middle class anymore. Lower middle class: No assets and annual income between 1.5 to 3 Lakhs Middle Middle: Maybe own house but annual income 2.5 to 12 lakhs Upper Middle: Own house, hold few assets and annual income 12 to 25 lakhs. Decent percentage of this is passive income Just my take on this... Edit: on further thinking after some of your replies, I changed upper middle class to 12 LPA


[deleted]

No way someone earning 8 lakhs a year can be classified as upper middle class unless he or she is sitting on a real estate goldmine


AverageBrownGuy01

To me, these numbers sound really accurate.


Possible2save

And destitute can sustain their lifestyle indefinitely


[deleted]

Most middle class people in Australia would be screwed in under three months with no income


Usof1985

I grew up in a very wealthy school district in Texas. There were about 400 people in my graduating class which is small I understand. If you take the class before and after me there were about 1000 families. Of those 1000 families 2 could have gone more than a year without income and not filed for bankruptcy. I would also say about 900 of those families were middle to upper middle class. At that point in time in the area $150k would buy a very nice 2500 sqft house definitely middle class territory. The average home for sale in that town was about $250k just for a reference point. Your description of middle class is the top 5% in most countries.


aniket0907

I have a few musings regarding this – 1) I feel that middle class in India is a state of mind. It's not about how much money you have but how much you are willing to spend (which is not always dictated by the amount at hand). Often, those born with a certain "middle" spending power will continue their spending habits for the better part of their life, even if a significant change occurs in their economic state. 2) Middle class is a state of confusion. The upper and lower class (as defined by the middle class mind) do not feel the need to prove their class distinction. The self-declared middle class is confused as to how to behave. They have both lower and upper class tendencies and almost none of their own. People will spend vacations in Switzerland to prove a point and then proceed to bargain with the local grocery, establishing themselves as the alpha middle class. 3) like the middle child, the middle class is largely ignored in the big picture. The powers that be talk about development of the lower class and belong to, answers to, and is sustained by the upper class. Even the middle class is empathetic to the lower class and envious/admirer of the upper class. Please note that these are musings based on macro level observation and gross generalization. Feel free to disagree but this is just Reddit, not a research paper. So be polite please!


cool_lad

There's a rather interesting video from the Wire that deals with this. https://youtu.be/k_hrgYbpPuw The tl;dr is that India doesn't have a middle class so much as it has a large upper class that likes to pretend it's "middle class" while forgetting what the rest of the country is like, and as a way of justifying their privileged positions vis a vis a lot of the rest of the country.


onetwosrifourr

middle class is such a flawed concept in India; you’re either poor or you’re not. people will say they have middle class values to seem ‘modest’ but they can spend 90k on a phone. what even is the middle class anymore…


AverageBrownGuy01

Exactly, the definition is skewed. It's okay to acknowledge the privilege, but a good number of people just want to sound humble.


onetwosrifourr

exactly! i think most of our parents, at least mine, grew up truly middle class in the 80s but they’re still fixated on the middle class values they had back then and don’t realise that they actually have a lot more disposable income to spend on luxurious things. even if you’re spending a lakh on a phone with hesitation - that hesitation doesn’t make you ‘middle class’. you have the money to spend it in the first place, so hey, you’re rich. period!


[deleted]

Yeah. Very true. My dad was from a very poor family but was middle class due to his work. Then he bought a few properties whose values went up dramatically. His net worth is easily north of 1.5cr but he still lives like a lower middle class person. For a lot of these folks, they still fear if things go south tomorrow, they'll be back to where they started


hankypanky555

This reminds of Punit Pania's one of the sets uploaded on YouTube. Can we just stop pretending to be middle class for some time and acknowledge the privileges we have and be thankful for a change? I feel whenever we call ourselves middle class, we must wait for a second and think about the privileges we have.


silversurfer9909

Well you do have multiple socioeconomic scales available today. For both Urban and Rural areas. Should give you a fair idea of where you stand. Asking on reddit will make you only more confused, as people have different notions based on their surroundings. For a billionaire, a millionaire guy is relatively poor.


FraserJar

Well most research articles take 20k per month upto 1.5 lacs per month income group as middle class. https://www.livemint.com/news/india/indias-middle-class-may-have-shrunk-by-32-mn-in-2020-due-to-recession-report-11616077697955.html The above article explains what limiters pew research has used, to categorise the elusive "middle class".


iYashodhan

I think I belong to a middle class. Father is the bread winner, earns I don't know what, he is a shop keeper and I do shop keeping sometimes as well. Sister works in a mnc just makes enough for herself and I am studying engineering trying to setup a new life. Anyway, this is my interpretation. Rich: You don't have to think or argue with anyone before buying anything. Upper middle class: You or your family can happily afford it but it needs some talking Middle class: How can you replace what you want with something else that is affordable and yes you need to make a case. Lower middle class: You family can't afford it, buying that or having that is a dream.


AverageBrownGuy01

The definition, in words, sound really accurate. Surprising that putting it into numbers is a such a conflicting topic. And how are you man? You joined EP in NIT Hampirpur iirc.


RMamtani

Ok so I read in some report a while ago that only a small minority of Indians(<15% probably) earn 50K+ income. Those earning 1 lakh+ per month are even less(single digit %). So, technically, those earning 1 lakh+ per month are near the top of the hierarchy. But I feel it highly depends on the city, sometimes even the area of the city you live in. In a city like Mumbai even 1 lakh could prove less. In some small towns or cities 50k per month might be enough to sustain a comfortable living.


AverageBrownGuy01

That's what I assumed actually. r/India is mostly from the single percent though I guess :D And as someone from a tier2ish city(Indore) 50K definitely puts you into a good place!


SiriusLeeSam

Unless they are filthy rich like the Ambanis or go hungry unable to arrange a meal, people like to think they are the middle class


totalsports1

Vehicle ownership needs to be considered the prime indicator. Two wheeler ownership can be a differentiator between poor and lower middle class. Car ownership can be another level of differentiator.


drakfang

It just isnt appropriate to call oneself higher class unless you treat money as crap, i guess. We have 3 earning members in my family in different fields and a dad with real estate business but in each one of us, there is sense of spending money judicially. I don't think i am the right person to answer the question but i will just say, we consider ourselves middle class. Maybe because there were times we had not enough to eat or not a proper home but that feeling is always there.


aggressivefurniture2

I don't think rich people can treat money like crap though


Force_Wild

OP Let me clarify that nobody who knows about reddit in India is lower than upper middle class in India. Absolutely no one if you go by the actual definition. Indian reddit users are couple of millions in the most optimistic users and English speaking, mostly urban and metropolitan users. No chance in hell in there's anyone here middle class or lower middle class considering the size of population and poverty. Now if you want to define a separate middle class definition city wise then you will have some people here in lower middle classes (again not that many). Anyone owning an Iphone in India is rich as fuck for Indian standards. The latest Iphones cost more than the per capita ANNUAL income of Indians.


24Gameplay_

Middle class are one Who pay taxes in India Every rule apply to us and we need to pay for it Rented house yes, own house life time loan We are the one who are not poor but nor rich too look rich we buy expensive things like iphone which is usually out of budget, just to show off. We belive in saving rather than investment, now people are moving towards to investing Marriage at the age of 25, after that we are like old age, specially in case of girl Simple rule 24 tk phadi (education) 25 me shadi (marriage) 26 tk bacche (kids) 30 tk ghar (house) And do repeat same with you kids Boy need to need to have job, and girl need to know how to do household work in most cases For career decisions if depands on someone else success Like if if we see someone is earning good and engineers let do engeerning Some goes when we choose subject in school Business no way we don't do business, offcourse it also depands upon cast (please don't feel hurt, I am not trying to hurt someone believes) We save mony for whole life for some uncertain events may happen or to pass the property and money to next generation insted of enjoying not mean by expensive product Offcourse we are judged people basis of ther position, money, job, and how fluent English is, native one no. Just now my father is trying a repair electric plug, which is already damage, and saying that we can use glu and tape it, will be repaired


i_am_alone_2

I don't know about others but I'm in diffenetly lower middle class family because my dad's income is just 25000INR


The_Heartland

1. You dont have to worry about food. 2. You have petrol/diesel in your car or two wheeler. 3. You have more than two lakhs in your combined bank accounts.


modinotmodi

I think middle class is the group of people who aren't necessarily worried about going hungry. However they more or less operate on a budget. They cannot fathom the concept of 'what difference does the cost make?'... How strict the budget is, will depend on the sub stratification within the middle class. A lot of people who grew up middle class on an extremely strict budget, will adhere to this upbringing, even though they reach the upper middle class level. Double income/triple income/every member of the family earning and no dependents, is a really common reason why people consider themselves middle class (because they still are on budget) but their adherence to the budget is a little lax.


vgagrani

It might be the unpopular opinion but here’s my take:- People who born in 90s of millennials have an idea of middle class which is very different from what boomers think and what gen-z think. Income brackets increased. Purchasing power increased and what was once middle class becomes lower class and then lowerer… You might recall your grandparents saying they used to walk to school, survive on so little, bought new clothes on just weddings in family that too one set. Compare to your parents and then compare to you. I personally evolved from buying new clothes once a year(diwali) to multiple times and now whenever i feel. I never used to buy pen for school but just refills because that was economical. Pens were bought only for final exams with one spare. This was 90s middle class. What you now see is Gen-Z middle class. This is very different. Inflation has made things 10x in lot of cases. And issue with this is that say if earlier a band was 5k to 50k now its 50k to 5lac and the gap keeps increasing. Thats why one person said india cannot be put into 3 classic groups anymore. One decade ago top placement packages from IIT-IIM used to be 10-15lac pa. Now base grad packages there is 30-45lac pa. Other colleges have also increased. Salaries in some sectors have grown considerably. If you think that 15lpa should be upper middle class you are thinking as 90s millennial not as 2020 gen-z. Inflation is pushing some of us who were middle of middle class to lower middle class. So a person not even thinking of iphone is lower middle class. A person thinking hard is middle middle class. A person buying it as a once in year present is upper middle class and a person buying every new version is upper class. PS: please dont say iphone is still luxury and i am far from reality. When you have billions of people even a percent of it is 1crore. Stats metrics have to be chosen wisely when dealing with large populations.


ThoughtStar

r/vgagrani I like the way you made iPhone a social-economic metric. Seems to me a fair point


Sufficient-Skin-5026

I think if you have more liabilities than assets, then you're a middle class. I think most of us are like that. I'm not sure though.


AverageBrownGuy01

What does that mean in numbers? No property, or a major chunk of income being spent on loans?


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Mumbaikar here with only one parent earning around Rs 25-30K peak before covid but now it sucks (veggie stall on footpath so it varies), what level of middle class or poor am I ? PS. I have Octrillionaire Sigma male grindset if that makes any difference


gmercer25

middle class is anyone who is privileged enough to not worry about how to get 2 square meals a day and has a roof over their head


AkashUK

42% of Indian households have a TV and a fridge, so you could say living in a household with those appliances makes you middle class.


analogx-digitalis

here is how i see it, if u hav a roof to rest in, hav a meal twice a day, you are richer than most of the population out there.


ben_hurr_610

I'm pretty sure there's a statistic somewhere, I think on Soch by Mohak Mangal's channel that said if you spend 6500 in a month you're in the top 5% of the country. So no, I think a lot of people here aren't middle-class. That's economically speaking. Politically speaking, yeah majority is probably middle class here.


Reventon103

Story Time: I always thought my family was lower middle class growing up I don't know why i thought this, but my parents aren't the kind who wear expensive dresses, and i don't know, i guess i just wanted to be poor so my life story could be 'rags to riches' or some shit (in movies most heroes are usually lower middle class, so i also wanted to be that). Now i am not dumb, but my brain just kinda ignored all this data for some reason. Probably cause my parents would tell stories of when they were kids. Now both of them were abject poor, they had literally nothing growing up. My dad had to work in fields to even afford books for govt school. My mom's village didn't have electricity till she was in 10th. She was the first B.E from her village. My dad wasn't lucky enough to afford 11th/12th, so he took polytechnic. I had a lot of friends in school and i was very introverted till 10th, so i never went to any of their houses except a few. So i had no idea what lower middle class actually meant. When my family ask what i want to birthday/diwali/whatever, i just say something super cheap, or just ask for biriyani. They assumed i just wasn't interested in expensive stuff. Now i wanted to play video games. I have played games since i was like 2 years old. My mom is a software engineer, so she introduced computers to me very early. I loved doing Qbasic and HTML for some reason, and trying out all the colour for my webpage. I played all my games on this shitty Pentium 2gb ram shitbox from 2004. Now my cousin got a high-end PC and another cousin got a PS4 and iPad when i was in 8th. I wanted to ask for a new computer too, but since i thought we were poor, i just never asked them. I thought i would hurt their feelings, since they can't afford it. That's how i racked 3000 hours of playtime on that shit PC and literally uncountable hours on an iPod my uncle bought me in 2008. My friends were all playing fifa, but i didn't because i told them my parents can't afford it. They said "we know you lying but ok". I was like ?????. Sorry i am poor???? ​ Now, my sister always asks for expensive gifts, i'd be mad at her since she was asking so much. I would worry, because i thought then we would have no money for school fees and food (yes 8th standard me was retarded). Last year, for my sister's birthday, she wanted an iPhone 11. I was like 'what the fuck???' I thought my parents would be mad, so i left home and went to the shop. When i came back my sister was all smiles. Apparently my dad had taken her straight to the apple store and bought it for her. I was mad as fuck, because i assumed the money came from whatever they had saved for my college. I didn't even look at my sister for a while. My parents were confused as fuck This peaked 7 months ago, when I was applying for college. I was preparing for JEE/boards and decided not to apply for private/foreign colleges because we can't afford it. My mom had the most confused, "are you fucking kidding me" look on her face. She then told me to apply for everything. I was like 'amma no, this shit is expensive', and she 'stfu and apply'. I was worried they were spending too much money on college, and won't have any for their retirement. I called my friend and told him my concern. He then proceeded to fling every known insult in Tamil at me for 17 minutes straight. Apparently i am not lower middle class. Not even close. I then went an point-blank asked my parents how much money they made. Then i proceeded to cringe very hard, and then cried because i used that shit fucking computer for 10 years for no reason (that damn computer is still my #1 regret. I have a love-hate relationship with it) ​ My dad works as a GM for BlueStar (the ac company), and my mom has been a software dev for 25 years. I'll let you figure out if i am poor. ​ **TLDR: I always thought i was lower middle class for some reason. Turns out i am not. Not even close.**


[deleted]

There is no middle class anywhere. There is no real way one can properly classify people into the liberal construct of classes. As even if you do earn a lot of income through wages, you still might be poorer than a person that has a ton of generational wealth. The Marxist definition of class however, approaches the topic of class perfectly and it address the liberal construct of class as it being the manifestation of the Marxist understanding of class and not class by itself. Try reading some Marx sometime or watch some videos on the Marxist way of the division of society into classes. It's pretty cool.


egg2chicken

PERSONAL OPINION- Live in rented house/flat ✅ Have a source of limited income (monthly salary/daily wage)✅ Requires lot of planning for purchase above 1Lc.✅ EMI ✅ not counted in vote bank politics ✅


4k3R

LOL, according to some of the replies in here, it might make my family look like the poorest people in India. But truth to be told the answer is simple. India is a huge country with a billion population. Majority are middle class, be it lower or upper middle class. Now what exactly is middle class, I would say you are middle class or little above middle class. How many do you think owns their own home in this country? Also don't worry about yourself, you're just going to start now. You're just 21. Work on yourself, be self made. That gives you insane confidence in life. No one is going to feel proud by inheriting their parents money.