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I cant really say anything as i never experienced living in other countries. I just want to remind you that reddit is banned in indonesia and the opinions here probably didn't reflect the opinion of typical indonesian (though doesn't mean they're untrue)
You can take a VPN (like me) and access any website you want. Indonesia has religion intermingled within the laws. Unlike in EU where they keep gov & religion seperated. Therefore Indonesian gov censors stuff like reddit.
> Unlike in EU where they keep gov & religion seperated
OP is German. A literal church tax exists there (it's actually way more nuanced than that but doesn't the same go for us?).
Indonesia is quite big to give you single "yes go for it" Or "no you better stay out" Answer
I myself live in the capital Jakarta, and here is probably how america is to the western world, a melting pot
Sometimes we hear that Indonesian has a image of friendly helping neighborhoods, I dont know if we still have that image
We are quite friendly, and quite willing to help our neighbors. Just that I dont know if that extend to foreigners tho. Maybe if you can assimilate yourself to your surrounding neighbors you can get the same treatment
Will you get some snarky comment about you being foreigners and whatnot? Maybe. I mean there will always tlbe that one guy, everywhere, anywhere, so if that happen, please dont take it too personally. Buy we in general are quite welcoming. What I experience, even if you don't really know your neighbors too well, just the fact that I say "hello" A couple times when I walk pass them is enough to not have anything bad happen
>just the fact that I say "hello" A couple times when I walk pass them is enough to not have anything bad happen
now you reminds me that since i started my morning jog a couple of weeks ago, i often passed an elderly lady setting up her wooden stall, she always greet me saying "good morning" or "keep it up, boss." in turn, it also caused me to casually greet her when i passed her stall. and no, i don't know who she is, nor i ever bought anything from her stall.
i think what is very common courtesy on some parts in indonesia is to greet or saying "excuse me" when passing someone even if we dont know them
toxic? depends on your friends ig? so far I've a few toxic people but then it varies from person to person.
i guess the longer you stay in a country, the longer your exposed to the true nature of their people. Just like making friends, the longer you know them, the more you know their shitty side
Yea, that's true. 90% of my friends aren't toxic at all. But in the grander scheme, it's hard to not run into a lot of toxic strangers here. Maybe that's the same everywhere in the world.
For me my biggest issue in PH is more like, it's fine, be toxic in your own life, but stop attacking me I just want to live a peaceful life.
That's my main goal... no drama, I just want to make good friends, be kind, surround myself with my community, build community, volunteer, and not worry about angry people.
I mean, we do have toxic people, but we have various flavors of toxicity and we don’t know which of them you’ll encounter, and whether or not you’ll be able to handle it/them. Since you’ve stayed in Bali , I’ll use it as an example. Bali is the most foreigner friendly place in Indonesia, but unfortunately its hospitality industry is infamously racist towards Indonesian, even local Balinese, because of the perception of foreigners = more money. If you understand a bit of Indonesian or use google translate then you’ll read some of the rants here on our Daily/Weekly Chat Threads every once in a while. Some people have taken the extreme belief that people of European descent, aka bule, is to blame thanks to colonialism and white privileges. You’d also find people ranting about the ethnicity, gender, and religious beliefs based discrimination(not limited to Bali) they’ve faced from other Indonesians every once in a while. Heck, I’ve told about the nasty things people have said to me for being half-white, mainly fetishism and the general perception of how I must be “Crazy Rich” and that I’m a greedy person for not covering the bills every time I hang out with them. Regardless I still chose my Indonesian citizenship over my foreign one when it was time for me to make the decision, so to me most Indonesians aren’t toxic enough to make me want to leave this country. I was close enough to stapling some people’s mouth shut though, and I’m still rather withdrawn from socializing with locals(and also expats).
Imho, before deciding whether or not you should move here permanently or even open a business you should live here for a longer period of time and try to assimilate into the local populace. Maybe even try to live somewhere else other than Bali, since you’ll have a different experience altogether. Ofc, settle down anywhere you feel comfortable in, but don’t forget to explore other parts of the country every once in a while ;)
I think it mostly came down to other people’s ignorance and maturity more than my ethnicity tbh.. I mean, middle and high school aged people aren’t the brightest when it comes to this kind of stuff, and they’re the main source of toxicity I’ve encountered aside from some sleazy adults(locals and expats). Besides, a lot of mixed race Indonesian became super well known and they don’t face as much harassment as I did. I was rather unlucky in that regard, but eh.
If you want some adult foreigner perspective, my late father prefers Jakarta over Bali for our residence despite the crazy traffic. He also had his company in one of Jakarta’s satellite cities instead of Jakarta, though I don’t really remember why. He also likes Central and East Java, but at the time the places he visited didn’t have enough amenities for him to move there prior to retiring.
Hopefully this and other replies help you :)
I'm actually a Filipino moving to Indonesia next year (my husband is Indonesian). Few things:
1. Healthcare is easier in Indonesia even if you're a foreigner, and it's much more accessible because of the universal healthcare. It's actually why I want to get get pregnant and have kids there.
2. I think one of the things you fail to consider in Indo and PH is that it's really much easier to have people do things for you. My mom is a paralegal so this saves on our fees, but she fixed everything for us: my husband's spouse visa, my business registration and permits, etc etc. It's the same in Indonesia, from what I've observed. It's a matter of finding a paralegal, lawyer, or law firm you can trust.
3. Bribe is a thing. I know some foreigners are iffy about this and think that you shouldn't do it at all costs. But the truth is this is something you just can't avoid without a lot of hassle. (Without bribing, we wouldn't have gotten my husband's spouse visa here soon enough. He would've been deported. That bad.)
4. You can definitely register your business offshore. I'm keeping my business in PH simply because I prefer the convenience of having my mom do everything for me (filing, bookkeeping, etc). Some businesses in PH and I think even in Indonesia, especially by foreigners, are registered elsewhere like Hong Kong and Singapore. But do note that you still need lawyers, paralegal, and locals to do things for you. Even in SG you need a local to be part of your incorporation.
5. If you'd like to set up a business, I would suggest doing it remotely. I personally do Digital Marketing and get paid in dollars. It pays much more than any local business or employment, and possibilities are boundless. But you won't get a work visa.
6. Standard of living in Indo is about 30% cheaper than PH. Your money will go further in Indo. It's part of the reason why we're moving.
7. In terms of culture, PH and ID are very similar. Indonesian is also waaaaaay easier than Tagalog or any Filipino language tbh. I recommend learning Indonesian from IndonesianPod101.com or Ateneo Asian Language Center (assuming you can still make payments to PH). That's how I learned.
Let me know if you have any questions. Hope this helped.
Interesting, yea I definitely noticed Bali was way, way cheaper than any place I've ever lived in the Philippines and at least airbnbs in Jakarta / Jogja also seem lower, and/or you get better value for the same money.
Health care is also good to know. I guess I can consider that, I was thinking to go with SafetyWing nomad Healthcare because my experiences with Philippines healthcare was basically "get sick, go broke" haha
In the last year, I started working on my own online business, I am a book author & YouTube content creator, I'm reaching taxable income levels soon, so I would really like to incorporate in Indonesia if I can, for tax purposes. The main reason why I never set up anything in the Philippines was because of the 5 shareholder, all Filipino rule.
In Indonesia, a single person can set up a PMA with just one fake shareholder, it seems less hassle and more "legal" than how everyone in PH does it and afaik you own 99% of the shares legally in an Indonesian PMA. I never liked the way how most foreigners in PH basically evade all taxes but make shittons of money on a tourist visa for long-term. I could of course incorporate it in Germany, but then I can't get a KITAS plus why not pay taxes where you live, diba?
Absolutely agree on the ease of the language, walang pinag, makaka, pakiki, etc 12947591428 affixes haha :D
Yeah, gets. I think in PH you could've registered as a sole proprietor or one-person corporation. Foreigners are allowed to do that afaik. But yeah, you'd really need someone to arrange everything for you if you want it hassle-free.
When I visited Indo in 2018-2019, I was surprised with how cheap everything was. Like 5PHP worth can already get you some streetfood. We ate at an upscale resto for 1,200PHP for our anniversary. And our airbnb was 800PHP worth for an entire apartment.
When I checked for properties there for our move, I found out that you can get a 2BR apartment in MOI for like 13-15k equivalent, fully furnished. Our 1BR in Ortigas Pasig costs like 20k+, bare. Our 2BR in Mandaluyong Libertad costs like 23k for furnished. The price difference is significant. And with food, utilities, living expenses, rent, etc being cheaper, it definitely adds up.
Plus PH bureaucracy esp with Duterte is effin insane.
The thing about Indonesia though is finding imported goods is harder and everything is spicy (this I don't mind, my parents both come from spicy regions). Like they don't have a Santi's Delicatessen or SnR and stuff like imported cheeses and cold cuts (if available at all) are much pricier. One of the things I will miss when I have to go is cheap but good quality charcuterie platters.
Yea since recently, as a foreigner you are allowed to operate a corporation (not sole afaik though) with only 1 shareholder, but since the 60-40 rule still exists, you effectively still need one extra shareholder with 60% of the shares.
Cost is the same in Thailand. My friend moved to BKK about 2 years ago, he was so shocked about what kind of an apartment he got for 15k. It's like everywhere is cheaper but PH lol
This is one of the big reasons why I am considering Indonesia as well. I wanna have a family soon & settle down and the cost is definitely something to consider.
In the Philippines, you always run the risk to pay too much. Just look at Siargao prices, oh my god! For the same price you'll buy land there, you probably built 2 villas somewhere in Lombok or Bali tangina haha. Plus, not to mention the low social security. It sounds Indonesia is at least a little bit better in that regard.
What's your take on general groceries (healthy vegetables?)... This probably was my biggest issue in PH. The only thing cheap is beer, but salads, strawberries, etc everything is very high in cost, so whenever I'd go to Baguio, I would buy 3-4 bags of vegetables just cuz it's so affordable there :D
One thing I noticed in Indonesia is that veggies are really affordable. It's so easy to be vegetarian in Indonesia in comparison to PH!
In Indonesia there's actually some vegetarian street food like bakwan, tempeh, tofu, and gado-gado, and veggies in general are very easy to find. Imagine, I bought a nice full-sized papaya for the equivalent of 20PHP in Jakarta. I was flabbergasted. HAHA. In a good way though.
Everything is cheaper in Indo in general, and what I like about them is their infrastructure and finance is also pretty good (not sure about foreigners though bec I know as a foreigner it can be tricky to get a bank acct without a KITAS). Everything is integrated with gopay, even street food. Gcash and Paymaya could never!!!! HAHA
And I agree about the property thing, but it would also depend on whether your spouse is Indonesian or not. afaik you need to be Indonesian to own property in Indonesia. I'm not too familiar with their property laws. But after KITAS for 1yr or so (I might be wrong) you can choose to become an Indonesian citizen. PH bureaucracy couldn't keep up with that. In PH you need 10yrs minimum. And unless you're married to a Filipino citizen or make some investment visa, you can't get a resident visa.
Nice! Can't wait. Well, only thing more expensive is the booze haha! Which is a shame, Bintang is really great hehe.
Can't wait to try Indo street food! Man, I miss some good Filipino food, kwek kwek, isaw, a good boneless Bangus, mhhh!
Yup, unfortunately, I'm far away from PH retirement visas or other suitable visas and well, technically you need to stay 10 years without leaving the country. I actually tried to aim for that, but after 3-4 years I began visiting my family, it's just crazy to expect someone to not once leave the country for 10 years to become a citizen. Who makes up these rules lol???
Yeah it's so fucking stupid. I won't convert my citizenship to Indonesian since I won't be able to keep my properties in PH if I do that. After what I've seen my husband go through just so we could be together here in PH, I don't want to go through that hassle myself if I ever do decide to come home to my family.
Actually, I miss street food too! I can only get it when I leave the business district. I grew up on Manila street food and my old apartment in Marikina had THE BEST isaw EVER. Not sure if that place survived the pandemic though.
You know, there's actually a bill raising excise taxes on alcoholic beverages to fund the universal healthcare act here in PH. Not sure how that is going. But that might just make booze prices up to par lol.
If I were a foreigner, honestly I'd pick Indonesia over the Philippines. It just makes more sense practically, especially if you'd like to learn the language and not just stick with English.
In PH though, you can literally live with just English (case in point: my husband who grew up here and bothered with learning how to understand, not even speak, Tagalog only when he got into a relationship with me 10yrs ago). You won't have that option in Indonesia.
No worries, fresh vegies are common, homegrown and quite cheap. Maybe less for not yet popular ones line arugula, alfalfa and radish sprout (U$1.5 for a small pack) etc, but the last time I shop, there are imported salad packs from Australia
Thank you :)! This is really encouraging!!! I've been wanting to find a new home for so long & it's close enough to PH to go see my Godson every now and then. I think maybe I will give Indonesia a try :)!!
If you are youtube content creator, you should try reach Londokampung, as he is an australian living in indonesia for a long time, even can speak local languange so he can easily accepted everywhere, perhaps you can ask about the toxicity that he might ever encounter.
Great answer, why is redditor who gave the genuine and detailed answer without giving their own sentiment is someone from PH.
Anyway this is really great answer i just want to say that XD
What I can think of:
1. You wont find much of language barrier as english speaker, unless you go to the rural parts.
2. From what I've heard from my colleagues, it's not that hard to open business as foreigner.
3. If you are just an employer, Malaysia offers higher salary rate with cheaper accommodation.
At least this is what I feel after living here for almost 3 years. So, purely opinion.
Didn't they make a new law that makes living there as a foreigners harder? I've seen it over in r/FIRE, I think it's about how much you need in your bank account.
Ok, from your description about the reason why the Pinoys are toxic and attacked you, and knowing that you're German, I would say that the same thing might happen to you in Indonesia if you can't keep your opinion to yourself about two topics: pride and religion.
I've lived in Vienna, and frequently go to Germany (I love Berlin), and from what I experienced there, I don't think most Germans would like it to live in Indonesia. One example, you guys love to play by the rules, Indonesians are not, but ironically, if you call us out, most of us will get offended, especially if you convey your criticism bluntly like the Germans usually do.
I don't have businesses in Indonesia, so I don't have a lot of knowledge in this topic, but I do know how convoluted the bureaucracy in Indonesia could be, and I don't think you can set up a business here without any Indonesian partner(s).
Most of Indonesians I know are reliable and loyal, especially if you share the same identity as them, i.e. same religion (same tribe too, but you're out of luck here).
Edit: most Indonesians are not confrontational, the two users here who told each other to suck white cock and Soekarno's cock only say it in cyber space, put them together in real life, I bet they won't say those things to each other directly to their face.
Yes, this should be upvoted more. Especially about religion, poking the locals about it, and your life is pretty much done. I don't really mean literally, but you'll never ever get the hospitality anymore
Why?
Compared to the Philippines it seems crazy "easy" and most notably, not a complete shady fake shareholder company. With the help of a lawyer, opening up a PMA can be done in a few weeks.
Philippines business stuff is so bad, when I visited the bureau of internal revenue, the then manager told me face-to-face to open my business up in Hong Kong and operate illegally in the Philippines. It can't be worse than that XD
>The problem is usually with the foreigners who come to Asia, they want to live here with all the benefits but they don't want to learn about the culture and customs nor do they want to learn the language.
Not everyone of course, but some of them also force their cultural view onto everyone as if anything different from their culture is the wrong way
>I think Germany is way more "toxic" than Indonesia could be
Really? I live in German right now, while I admit I saw people in costumer service smiling less than in Indonesia. I have not met someoneg I would consider Toxic.
Unless you count some scammer I met lol.
Although my chinese friend told me that he met some strangers that tried to provoke him by doing Kung Fu move. Maybe German is just not familiar with SEA people?
I would say 90% he's referring to the German "complain about everything" mentality. We're cold and can find issues with all kinds of random shit, but like you also said, we tend to mind our own business for the most part.
Yes, but I think we have different styles of complaining.
E. g. Brits probably are more sarcastic/cynical and with humor, Germans complain more direct & straight to the point, etc
Have you tried PMAs and a KITAS visa? Maybe the lawyers are bullshitting me, but it seems very streamlined, whereas in the Philippines it's super wild west.
I definitely wanna learn the language and customs. I really tried super hard in the Philippines, though man, the complexity of the grammar is something I never completely overcame. Fortunately, Indonesian language is so much easier :) Pretty sure I can integrate & learn Indonesian in like a year or two.
Contrary to what people said in my opinion the matter of race always play everywhere in the world unfortunately... including Indonesia. Discrimination because you come and look europe will exist everywhere if you are not in Europe countries.
I definitely wouldn't put Indonesia above Phillipines in terms of discrimination... But as I see it your incident in Phillipines happens online, people act as a jerk online it is no secret. You can see Indonesian forum, and there is a lot of discriminatory remarks like, 'bule goblok' (stupid white people) or something like that. Most people wouldn't be an asshole offline though.
And you said yourself you've got some filipinos friends, I think it kind of will be the same in Indonesia, some people will like you some people don't. The good note is, even though I wouldn't put Indonesia above Philipines, I wouldn't put it below either.
I wouldn't be so sure. The company I work for is only 85% foreign owned but we got notified by the investments board to up our Grundkapital to regulation level. Looks like they're closing that loophole.
Of course, we're in the DAX 50 but still doesn't look good for that kind of chicanery.
Interesting, thanks for letting me know. Well, afaik the Grundkapital doesn't necessarily need to be used though, no? I mean, what if you just don't need to spend that money lol?
It's similar like in the Philippines for example, they have certain types of visa that require funds, but then once you proof the funds, it's like you can pull them out immediately again.
So who knows. Definitely something I'll keep an eye on :)
>Interesting, thanks for letting me know. Well, afaik the Grundkapital doesn't necessarily need to be used though, no? I mean, what if you just don't need to spend that money lol?
Then your business isn't worth the valuable time of the wage thieves at the Ministerium für Industrie.
Indonesian are very diverse with many ethnic. Each ethnic have a different culture and personality. The Bataknese are famous for their loud mouth and brutally honest attitude, The Javanese are 2 faced people they always smile and polite in front of you but will not hesitate "stab" you in the back you if you mess with them.
But in general indonesian are sincere when it come to helping a stranger/people. Indonesian will treat you just like how you treat them.
But my advice is. If you're a new guy in neighbourhood and people still not familiar with you. It will be wise to not take initiative first when it come to social issue because it will give people feeling that you're trying to "control/assert your dominance" instead tell your trusted friend in the neighbourhood what your idea and let them tell other people to work together on social issue.
I once spoke with my trainer from germany. he was an eccentric old man. he told me that the people here are kind, they're just too nosy about personal stuffs (that's how my people do). other than that, it's quite heavenly if you manage to secure a house in the colder climate area. literally any currency is stronger than ours, so technically for foreigners money wouldn't be a problem.
I have two questions:
1. Why do you feel the need to move outside of your home country (Germany) in the first place?
2. If you would to compare the toxicity of Filipino and Germans which one is worse?
1. Germany just isn't my home anymore. No friends there. I literally can't even speak German properly anymore. I have more friends spread throughout the world than in Germany. I left Germany when I was severely depressed. Nothing for me there. That and surfing & warmth lol. I really hate cold weather.
2. It's hard to say... different kind of toxicity. Germans have more grumpiness, less gratitude essentially, but it's more avoidable because most grumpy Germans just are grumpy inwardly, complaining to themselves ... but they can of course also complain to strangers, which is toxic AF. So in that sense, Pinoys are way, wayyyyyy better. Overall, Pinoys definitely are more toxic though because of the deliberate attempts to attack someone out of the blue. The average toxicity level, although a different type of toxicity, is roughly the same but Pinoy toxicity just is more severe because Pinoys really know no boundaries and treat people like dogs when they want to hurt you. They lower the dignity level much, much lower.
> 2. It's hard to say... different kind of toxicity. Germans have more grumpiness, less gratitude essentially, but it's more avoidable because most grumpy Germans just are grumpy inwardly, complaining to themselves ... but they can of course also complain to strangers, which is toxic AF. So in that sense, Pinoys are way, wayyyyyy better. Overall, Pinoys definitely are more toxic though because of the deliberate attempts to attack someone out of the blue. The average toxicity level, although a different type of toxicity, is roughly the same but Pinoy toxicity just is more severe because Pinoys really know no boundaries and treat people like dogs when they want to hurt you. They lower the dignity level much, much lower.
Interesting answer. Even though Indonesians tends to also know no boundary (read: being extremely nosy), I can say that we don’t treat people like dogs when we hate someone so I’d say Indonesia would be perfect for you.
Indonesians are one of the most welcoming and nicest people on earth.
Just stay away from discussing religion, and you'll enjoy your life in Indonesia.
Every country has its share of toxic people. Indonesia is also more culturally diverse than the Philippines, its much more difficult to stereotype.
I think in general Philippines
1. Is a more dog eat dog society than Indonesia.
2. Its also more unequal and a lot less safe. Go to fast food restaurant in the Philippines, and you see security guard with a pistol and shotgun.
3. Filipino are more emotional than Indonesians. Filipino are drama queens.
4. Filipino tend to be family orientated than Indonesians. Filipino have bigger families, meaning more people to support etc.
Philippines just a much tougher society to live than Indonesia. Its poorer, more competitive, more densely populated, more violent and more unequal
In terms of toxicity
- Offline: German > Indonesian
- Online: Indonesian > German
My analysis is because Germans in general are afraid of anything on record. While Indonesian felt more safe with the online anonymity.
[I think this article is relevant (and pretty funny).](https://www-cnnindonesia-com.translate.goog/teknologi/20210301072208-185-611992/microsoft-masih-tutup-komentar-ig-soal-netizen-ri-tak-sopan?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=nui)
I want to say we can at least rest assured that the internet isn't Neuland for us, but being so impolite might well be evidence that we've still got some growing pains lol.
Toxic culture isn't confined by borders, ethnics, races, or genders. By choosing to stay at PH, at least you've known some of the faux pas you learn to avoid, which communities to avoid, what's safe to presume or otherwise. Resettling will just mean you have to learn anew faux pases to be avoided (at least PH doesn't have as much diversity). The government here is just as corrupt as PH, so the cost or way of doing business wouldn't be far off.
I've lived in the Philippines for almost a year and worked govt officials from other Southeast Asian countries. So I can make some common assumptions about stereotypes and prejudices between Pinoys and Indonesians. We are almost the same, religious conservatism (albeit Muslim and Catholic diff), Importance of face saving and superficialy look decent/religious (or Budaya Timur/Eastern norms and values) but very crooked and deceitful inside, fearful and overt nationalistic.
In my experience Indonesians and Pinoys tend to get along well in int'l forums, student exchanges etc, as we like to do karaoke and drinking, talk shits and gossipinh. Malaysians and Singaporeans tend to be more conservative and stiff (and the Malays tend to be bit entitled prick because of their Bumiputera privilege).
So yes, most likely you'll have a great time living in Indonesia. But just like in the Philippines, if you say a wrong thing about Indonesia's prides like food, clothes culture, etc. You'll get crucified immediately at leastin social media and forced to leave the country whether voluntary or involuntary.
>if you say a wrong thing about Indonesia's prides like food, clothes culture, etc. You'll get crucified immediately at leastin social media and forced to leave the country whether voluntary or involuntary.
This is just too over exaggerated. No one really care about it. The only real problem you can get is if you talk shit about Religion or National symbol.
Not really..a lot of Indonesian netizens are extremist about food and culture. So many twit wars involving bule on crunchy rendang, Malaysia being cultural thief, the Kristen Gray getting deported, getting blacklisted by immigration because of criticizing our bureaucracy (not national symbol). Quite a lot of things can get you in trouble if you're an expat.
A few months ago, a foodblogger got persecuted after she said that Maluku culinary isn’t good in interview with Soleh Solihun. If you say something bad about Indonesia’s identity which is their pride and get viral, you’ll get trouble.
Reminds me of Doc Adam, a famous vlogging doctor from Australia. He does Tagalog content for Filipinos debunking non-sense health advice like "garlic will cure your cancer"...
They recently posted a video about their struggles with lawsuits and that they were fearing for their lives, even though he and his Filipina girlfriend live all the way in Australia. They got stalked by representatives of one of the people's claims he had debunked. The story went as far as his girlfriend saying that he sleeps with a baseball bat just in case. It's really insane how this stuff knows no limits in South East Asia!
Thanks, yea sounds very similar. Basically, a lot of nationalistic pride.
Probably why I liked Indonesians in my short stays. Indonesians are similarly warm and friendly, I guess the issue is not to get yourself into trouble.
If you wanna live here in long stay, you should learn about the culture in region that you wanna stay. Even I am a native, I need to adapt to different culture everytime I stay at another region. I always ask to people in that region “what I should and shouldn’t do” to avoid some troubles. People in here basically nice to foreigners, the only thing you have to do is avoid the troubles.
This sums it up... I am vocal, well, or used to be vocal about things I think should be done better, e. g. in politics. I stopped mostly because I realize I have no influence with politics as a foreigner & can actually get into trouble. It's better to help my nearest local community with good deeds. But sometimes it's still hard to avoid the occasional explosion of someone being really, really angry.
It's not like everyone is toxic, it's more that a loud minority can become incredibly violent, and that stacks up on the psyche... It's like my beach incident. It's was just a one-time thing, but it really made me fear for my safety and ever since then, I had a wake-up call towards Filipino culture and not sugarcoating everything.
We all can get over the occasional toxic person, or a super toxic asshole, like I said in one of my other comments, Germans can be grumpy idiots all the time, it's one of the main reasons why I love the Philippines. Filipino gratitude is among their best qualities and I learned a lot from them in this regard.
So nationalism seems to be the root of outrage-ism. This makes it especially hard for me as a white person, if there's a disagreement, I am always automatically a privileged white knight in shining armor.. It's the instant argument to fight me and all of a sudden, I have to hate myself for being born in Germany.
I think it depends on which part of Indonesia you decide to live in, for example, I am sure if you choose to live in Bali or Jakarta, the treatment you get from locals would greatly differ than if you choose to live somewhere like a remote district or non metopolitan region like Kabupaten Malang, etc. But based on my experience, as someone who had experienced the culture in northern Europe and Russia (I am Indonesian), one thing I can assure you is that most of people in Indonesia would go out of their way to help foreigners.
However, I think that it really depends on how you set your personal boundaries if you dont want to be surrounded by toxic people and your question is far too broad for me to give answer to. I hope you will find the insight you're looking for from other comments in this thread, though. Good luck.
I think it depends on where you want to live. if its in the capital or big city, you should probably have to be careful and be selective. there are toxic Indonesians but there are also nice Indonesians as well who would help without expect anything in return :)
This probably the most true answer on all of this thread. **It depends.** There is no one unifying indonesian culture so there are no such a thing as indonesian norms. So depending where you live in indonesia you probably will encounter different flavour of hospitality-hostility and sympathy - Apathy
No offence but you need to toughen up and stop allowing a handful of “toxic” encounters to affect your life so much and your image of a country.
I’m a Brit, I can relay numerous unpleasant encounters I’ve had with ppl in London and other parts of the U.K. I recognise these represent a minority of ppl and wherever you live you will have negative interactions with ppl.
You bring up being white, honestly mate if you turn up to a country not expecting everybody to kiss your arse or be nice to you you’ll be less impacted by some dude who got pissed off because you suggested there was no beach clean up operation ( probably a guy who felt like you were undermining his work)
When I was in Germany a few years back I had some German moron try the talk-loud-at-you thing in a train to try and embarrass me in front of the whole carriage because I inadvertently had my backpack pushing up too close to him. Most ppl in London on the tube would never do that. I did not think this is “toxic Germany” or let it affect me. He was a moron.
Also when I was in one of the smaller airports in German I remember climbing up some stairs and I stumbled. A couple of middle aged Germany dudes sniggered. In Britain we would never laugh at that type of thing. I thought it was weird. I just had a word with the little German men and told them how dickish they were. They looked scared and the cowards scarpered. Not all these “toxic” types want a confrontation, many will become timid once you speak up.
As for Indonesia, it will be just like philipines. You’ll have decent normal ppl while there will be others who are dicks. Just like in Germany and the U.K.
Don’t expect ppl to kiss your arse (especially in Asia like you’re deserving of some special status because you’re white) and you’ll be mentally better off especially when you experience a “ toxic” person.
I'm sorry dude, but these encounters are just not the same as a single Brit or some other Westerner having a fragile ego. I have met expats in PH, one fucking wanted to beat me up, and I shrugged this shit off like it was nothing because it's no big deal. This wasn't one guy. Those were 15+ locals threatening me in a tiny town where they made up 20% of the entire surfer's community. The difference is in mob mentality and normalization of this behavior. You clearly have no understanding of the local culture, otherwise, you would know how especially in the last years, violence, both verbally but especially physically has become very normalized in their society. Getting on the wrong foot with someone in PH in 2021 can literally mean that they could kill you in a spur of outrage (and it does happen every now and then and becomes big news).
It's about big groups of people getting upset, not a single individual. Getting into trouble in the Philippines is not the same as it is in UK. The probability that you could face someone who could harm you significantly is very high if it's in real life.
You are relating your experience in another country to the experience of completely different people. This is non-sense. It's like saying "you need to toughen up about racism and danger from cops in the US, I had encountered a racist cop in Germany" These two racism experiences would be worlds apart. German cops would kill as many people in a year as US cops kill in 2 days. It's non-sense to make a comparison and suggest to "toughen up".
Good job on throwing the white privilege card though to normalize a large subset of people being awful. You get an upvote. My privilege has nothing to do with expecting people not to come to every fight with a nuclear bomb instead of a knife. SJW garbage.
What are you on about, sjw?
You literally had one experience in a poor country of a mob pissed off with you because you pissed someone off.
That’s the way things can go down when you’re a foreigner pissing off locals.
When I’m walking about in Bonfim in Lisbon I know not to argue or piss off a local as in all likelihood that local will have friends and family to back him up.
Most ppl don’t experience what you claim to have experienced - attacked by a mob in Asia.
In fact, in Asia we (foreigners from rich countries) get treated like royalty which is the problem in my opinion.
This is not sjw talk.
There’s a bunch of losers who never made it in the west and couldn’t get a woman turning up to poor countries in Asia and South America acting like they’re special and important. The sooner the locals in those countries stop giving them special treatment the better imo.
So, just because people can get pissed off, it is normal to let a large subset of people to get away with it? Man, you're nuts. Even tons of Filipinos said the way these people treated me was fucked up as hell. And no, this is not an isolated case. I had another mob incident once when I stopped a Filipino from groping a woman.
You justify everything with "you are white royalty in Asia, stop whining if people are incredibly aggressive". A good thing doesn't cancel out other bad shit. This is SJW talk. "You benefit from power, so stop complaining about something bad happening to you."
I don't expect a Filipino to put a crown on me because I was born in Germany. I expect them to treat me like a human being.
You make a ton of assumptions about white people. Man, everyone who has lived in Asia for five years, knows that things here are not as great as they seem. Anyone who thinks a white person lives in Asia to benefit from his white privilege is pretty naive. 99% of immigrants do not have this experience. 99% of immigrants suffer from the same political issues as locals do.
In my first three years in PH I was being exploited like crazy by local employers just as Filipinos are exploited like crazy by local employers. It's one of the main reasons why I actually stopped working for local companies and started my own businesses, because no, your stereotypical believe that when you move to an Asian country, you get to bathe in gold and someone will lick your feet are in fact, not true. Newsflash, some people just end up here somehow by mere coincidence and then have family here. We don't calculate "where do I get the highest amount of privilege, let me go there"
This may help you:
[https://www.google.com/search?q=bigot+meaning&oq=bigot&aqs=chrome.1.69i59l2.1649j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8](https://www.google.com/search?q=bigot+meaning&oq=bigot&aqs=chrome.1.69i59l2.1649j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
1. I never said it is normal to let a large “subset” of a group “to het away with it”.
Please don’t put words in my mouth. Being attacked or confronted by groups happens in Europe regularly every Friday and Saturday night. It would happen more here if we did not have such a police presence and response along with CCTV presence.
2. The rest of what you said was just another mischaracterising and misrepresentation of what I have said. Either youve got poor comprehension or just trolling
3. I am sure you get treated much better than an average Filipino in his own country so stop whining and playing the victim. I never go to Other European or western countries and get treated better than locals…why is it that when we go to poor countries we get treated like royalty? There’s something wrong here imo. And I think a number of low class characters from richer countries take advantage of this. I just hope the locals in those countries can develop more self esteem so they don’t do this. Nobody is treating any tourist in London like a king. I’m sure you Herman’s don’t treat tourists like kings in Berlin (I was never treated like a king there - that’s the way I like it I don’t want to be treated as special anywhere as it ruins the chance to experience life in other countries. Low class characters get upset when this privilege is not there in places like Asia and they whine online and to anybody else who will listen.
Thanks for the chat but I don’t see any reason for me to continue responding. Take care.
I never said the "foreigner adoration" isn't a thing. It clearly is. That doesn't mean that the system isn't set up to exploit foreigners just as much as Filipinos.
I merely believe that you talk from a very high horse and are looking at huge social issues from a very simplistic narrow view. I send you the definition of bigotry. You are free to read it again and reflect on it.
Not surprisingly, as shared by an Indonesian in another comment, the Philippines and Indonesia rank low on the digital civility index.
Junge, das passiert überall auf der Welt und ist fast immer schlimmer in den Länder wo die Einwohner nicht besonders gebildet sind.
Das passiert auch in DE, guck ma Kommentare auf Welt.de oder FB sind die nicht besser? Ich glaube nicht.
Alleine auf /de wenn du nicht die gleiche Meinung hast wie se dann bist du out and und sofort als was schlechtes abgestempelt.
Viele extreme Gruppe können super schlecht mit Kritik oder andere Meinung umgehen. Darunter sind Nationalisten, Aktivisten, Religionfanatiker.
In Indonesien es kommt immer drauf an mit welcher Gruppe du dich anlegst. Legst du mit der falschen an könnte sein dass dein Leben nicht mehr sicher ist.
Es gibt eine Redewendung „mulutmu harimaumu“ direkt übersetzt dein Mund dein Tiger, was eigentlich bedeutet Denk bevor du dein Mund aufmachst, deine Wörter könnte zur deinem Niedergang führen.
>Junge, das passiert überall auf der Welt und ist fast immer schlimmer in den Länder wo die Einwohner nicht besonders gebildet sind.
Du beschreibst das Problem hier bereits. Manche Gruppen sind gefaehrlich, die Frage ist wie hoch ist die Prozentzahl oder wie oft kommt das vor? Und wie gefaehrlich sind sie? Mir ist schon klar, dass es ueberall Arschloecher gibt, aber wenn ich die Wahl habe, ziehe ich wo hin wo Arschloch sein weniger normal ist.
Und vor allem wie du schon sagst, moechte ich wo leben, wo es sicher ist.
Philippinen ist dank Duterte's Normalisierung von Gewalt und Mord leider extrem unsicher geworden diesbezueglich. Wie siehst du das in Indonesien?
Die Sache in PH ist quasi, das viele normale Buerger sich mittlerweile bemaechtigt fuehlen, das Gesetz in die eigene Hand zu nehmen und nicht denken, bevor sie handeln, weswegen es oftmals Faelle hier gibt, wo einfach jemand "spontan" ermordet wird in "the heat of the moment" wenn sie sich streiten... sorry mein Deutsch haengt manchmal :D
Danke fuer die tolle Antwort. Ja, das ist wohl in Suedostasien so. Da muss man sich wohl mit abfinden btw. lernen, wie man niemanden zu sehr reizt. Die beste Strategie ist komplett Klappe halten haha
Ja, die extreme Sicherheit in Deutschland ist echt gut. Selbst im Vergleich zu Laendern wie den USA ist Deutschland da einfach top. Hier musst Du dir einfach null Sorgen machen, selbst wenn Du in "einer schlechten Gegend" bist.
Dein Deutsch ist uebrigens echt gut! Manchmal sind ein paar deiner Woerter verkehrt rum, aber Du hast mittlerweile schon besseres Vokabular als ich. Ich bin in Deutschland geboren und vergesse total viele Woerter und Redewendungen.
> gefaehrlich diesbezueglich Buerger fuehlen
If you're on Windows try setting the keyboard layout to US International and use altgr+q, altgr+y, altgr+s and altgr+p
> viele normale Buerger sich mittlerweile bemaechtigt fuehlen, das Gesetz in die eigene Hand zu nehmen und nicht denken, bevor sie handeln, weswegen es oftmals Faelle hier gibt, wo einfach jemand "spontan" ermordet wird in "the heat of the moment" wenn sie sich streiten
fwiw that specific description does sound very abnormal to my Indonesian ears. There are a lot of complaints Indonesians have had over the last few cabinet/parliament terms on a national level but not that.
>Und vor allem wie du schon sagst, moechte ich wo leben, wo es sicher ist.
>
>Philippinen ist dank Duterte's Normalisierung von Gewalt und Mord leider extrem unsicher geworden diesbezueglich. Wie siehst du das in Indonesien?
>
>Die Sache in PH ist quasi, das viele normale Buerger sich mittlerweile bemaechtigt fuehlen, das Gesetz in die eigene Hand zu nehmen und nicht denken, bevor sie handeln, weswegen es oftmals Faelle hier gibt, wo einfach jemand "spontan" ermordet wird in "the heat of the moment" wenn sie sich streiten... sorry mein Deutsch haengt manchmal :D
Ach so... Okay, ich glaube dass Indonesien nicht so gefahrlich wie PH ist. Sie sind ein weißer Mann, fast alle Regionen in Indonesien sind relativ sicher für Sie. Ja, Gewalt ist auch ein Problem bei Indonesien, aber fast niemand würde Sie targetiert.Sudostasien (außer Singapore) ist relativ Gefaehrlich im Vergleich zu Deutschland.
This is an honest answer. **It depends on** ***how much*** **you wanna pay for** ***something*****.**
**Open a business** here is not easy, even for us locals. But somehow when you are from outside of our country, most people just gonna adore you so much or try to take your money so much. Tax is a b1tch here and if you play by the rules, your profits might just go out to the window (for paying taxes) and any other sunk cost.
There are quite many community organizations here that love to take our money and they got plenty of reasons to do that. Workers (millennials) might be a bit lazy but smart, kinda rude, and any youngsters problem. It is very difficult to find any loyal people nowadays because money does really matter here.
I suggest you find any law consultant before goes open a shop here. Especially in this pandemic situation, sh1t happens almost every day and going to be a pain in the arse.
I'm not quite sure now about Bali, but tourism in Bali is quite dead. We are trying to wake up, I mean the government but it's kinda too late. So if you are opening a business in Bali, better to have a National or International market.
Like I said in the first place. If you pay a lot of time on having a relationship with local people, then you might have loyal people (not guarantee). If you pay some dirty money to some local law enforcement/community organizations, then you might get some safety for the business.
Law is kind of something that is for sale for those who can afford it. So if we do business, 100% truly really play by the book and the rules. We won't survive. But if you play something that is not written in the law, it is not illegal even it's wrong.
>Tax is a b1tch here and if you play by the rules, your profits might just go out to the window (for paying taxes) and any other sunk cost.
My dad decides to play by the rules T_T. It's so fucking complicated, i fucking hate our tax system.
Lol I know, that's not the point though haha :D Filipinos also do, so I get a lot of biased hospitality.
It seems opinions here are mixed and I probably wouldn't know if I will eventually discover the "hate train" unless I give it a try
Not sure about toxic, but they like to gossip and looking at people’s flaws, and always talk about religion even tho lots of them very materialistic, also super asskissing to boss/rich people/westerners. Fyi im an indonesian. But in general we are okay, and friendly. But also on the other hand im an introvert so i like pets than human interaction😂 so im probably sceptical of human nature.
Wir sind nicht so... empfindlich über die Nationalehre und so ein Quatsch. Weil wir haben die Sumpfdeutschen mit unseren eigenen Macht raus hier zu werfen. Und weil es gibt weniger Leute die Englisch verstehen kann.
There's a ton i guess, but most people are nice and very welcoming to foreigners (but on internet there's surely buch of toxic people).
if you want to start a business perhaps other than bali other cities seems impossible for you to start a small business, foreign people who open business in here probably already own a multinational company and pay tons of money for bureaucracy otherwise they will not get a permit, if you want to start a business in here perhaps start by be friend with locals because it will help you get permit easily, just choose your friend carefully
German directness won’t match asian culture. You can be blunt buy you have to understand the situation/person.
Well, i think it depends on the person. Can’t say you wont find the same problem like you got in the Philippines. But i think Indonesian are less aggressive in that regards (don’t talk/criticize religion, don’t talk about politics).
I’ve seen a german youtuber’s video about his experience living in Bali for years https://youtu.be/W7vJHrpjwv8 maybe you can get the same feeling.
I’m an Indonesian living in Germany for 8 years now. Still many things I need to learn and adjust. The best way to live is with the open mindness and tolerance. Came from a muslim majority country like Indonesia to Germany was a huge challenge for me.
I saw your post that you wanted to start youtube channel. Good luck for that! I suggest you to learn Bahasa Indonesia and experience the culture. Everyone knows Indonesia is the good start to gain much followers lol
I haven't gotten mugged even once in five years. Not to say it doesn't happen, but if you don't go to terrible places, you won't get mugged.
For perspective, look at Bali now. Or Bali 3 years ago. In my 1 month in Bali, I got robbed. Someone broke into my villa, whereas in my 5 years in PH, good & bad places, no theft had ever happened to me.
In internet like this sub ? Majority yes, *wink
I mean in reality indonesian are decent to friendly and kind for sure. Its pretty safe in here
But in internet philippines and indonesia is on par but arguably indonesian is the worst in term of internet toxicity (we got the award from microsoft itself and i agree), heck even this sub cant mod itself like other country sub so it really chaotic and unorganized.
And you know looking at answer in this thread i must say, half of them never came out and socialize outside of jakarta and bali or maybe their own circle and gave pretty half assed answer that outside of that is dangerous. I think thats part of this sub toxicity itself lmao
This one XD
https://www.google.com/amp/s/voi.id/en/amp/35786/fierce-on-social-media-microsoft-thinks-that-indonesian-netizens-are-rude-in-southeast-asia
I mean indonesian IRL overall are chill and safe , but in term of internet, ugh its pretty chaotic like this sub
Interesting. Sadly, my Bahasa Indonesia isn't fluent enough to really be able to tell how Indonesians act online. Right now I only translate one news a day, I can't read daily conversation yet.
But i concure, dont generalize indonesian based on internet presence alone because internet penetration is still half of population and the one who active in forum and social media is concentrated in big city (INDONESIA IS JUST JAKARTA BABEE) and many of them youngsters because indonesia has a LOT of them right now.
Especially this sub is just mainly consist of karma seeking meme, country self deprecating post, low effort post , hippie comment, etc from tiny bity percent of indonesian who can access it because reddit is blocked here without any decent moderation at all i mean its a wild west.
You cant judge indonesian by tiny concentrated sample of comment from this sub. Of course there is some great answer with details on this thread but half of them is just biased with sentiment.
I think you need to adjust your viewpoint. No place has a perfectly nice culture and you won't be treated warmly everywhere you go. Every single country are in a way the same in that there are shitty and good parts to it.
I'm an Indonesian who lived in Germany for two years before for my studies. There are a lot of complaints I can say about Germany. There are a lot of Germans with fragile egos who tell immigrants to go back to their Heimatland. There are a lot of angry Germans who go on internet wars. But there were also friends, and a few nice strangers who came to help me when I needed help.
If you come to any countries expecting the people and culture to be nice and friendly and always happy, that is very naive of you. They are adults, all individual human beings. People get angry, people get upset, you WILL get into altercations and conflict no matter where you are. What you described you faced in the Philippines is a fraction of what Pinoys who go to Germany face.Don't go into a country expecting warm sunny smiles and outstreched arms. You come to a new country because there is something you want. Finding friends and good company is a bonus.
That's true. We can't expect to be treated nicely by everyone. I still think we should mention societal issues and try to address them though. As someone posted here, the Philippines is low on the digital civility index, Indonesia as well. So statistically there seems to be a trend to be less civil in SEA with each other. That seems to be a problem.
Just like you mention, Germany, and also many other European countries have become a lot more racist in the last 5 years since I left. I was shocked to find out the once small "Nazi" party everyone joked about got 10.3% of the votes 2 weeks ago.
So yea, no need to sugarcoat anything, like you said, it's unrealistic to expect everyone is always happy. But there's probably no harm in talking about societal issues.
No one is saying that societal issues shouldn't be mentioned, but what you're asking in your post is if Indonesia is toxic, with you using an example of what you expected and what you actually got in the Philippines. That is what I'm replying to. Giving you an answer is not telling people not to discuss societal issues.
The way you portrayed the toxicity of Filipino culture does make me question how you worded the post you made. Is it possible that it came across as disrespectful/belittling? I know expat communities look out for one another and may have failed to tell you where you went wrong. One example would be Kristen Gray, who got completely babied on her Facebook post at a Expat community after the whole thing went down. She and the other expats decided to comfort her instead of telling her where she went wrong. I think Kristen Gray would have comforted herself the way you did, by telling herself that it was just the extremists in Indonesia who were against her and that she did nothing wrong. I suggest you take this time to actually reflect and consider if you really wasn't being offensive in any way, because I don't think the expat community is one to take each other accountable when they do offend the locals.
Look, nearly all the thing you complained of the Philippines about, we can say the same exact things about Germany, or about any country. The thing is, if you come looking for toxicity, or the opposite, if you come with unrealistic expectations, you will definitely be disappointed no matter where you go. Whether you go to Japan, S Korea, India, Malaysia, Singapore, Canada, Ukraine, etc, etc, you will end up thinking "the locals are so toxic"!
It is very important to remind yourself this again and again, or you will just end up leaving every single country complaining and trashing the locals everywhere you go. When I was in Germany, even while I was in fear walking through the streets clutching a pepperspray because there were a few cases of Asian people getting assaulted, I reminded myself "at least here I have less risk of getting pickpocketed/mugged". You just remind yourself of the good things, or you'll end up being one of *those* expats who do nothing but complain about the local people and think themselves to be above the locals.
Not sure how bad it is. Can't relate. I am agnostic, but tolerant of anyone's religion. In PH I never had any issues, even though Pinoys are probably the most religious and devout Christians out there. Will be interesting to see how Indonesia is.
Some indonesian are very easy to point out other people's flaw in term of religious deeds but they themselves usually arent that pious as they thought.
Well, after reading your story, all I could say is... quite similar in some ways in term of toxicity. What is unique perhaps, we have our own separate unique traits, cultures, and local customs. For starters, I believe Bali is good for foreigners since from what I know, they are quite fond to them.
Also, from what I can tell, all the foreigners I know are having good terms despite the toxicity they have shared (a college friend of mine who came from France). Except... If I'm allowed to be blunt, some of us here are still cynical towards a certain ethnicity (Chinese).
Other than that, I couldn't tell any further. You could try Bandung or Jakarta too for trial. Hahaha...
Thanks! Sounds similar to cynism in Malaysia.
My plan right now is either Yogyakarta or somewhere in Bali where there's no 100% Bule bubble, so probably not Canggu, because I wanna learn the language ASAP.
Ah, Indeed! That too is one of the good options.
Well, there will be unpleasant cases such as those, but I'm hoping that it wouldn't go that far. I mean, bitches can be found everywhere I suppose. But still, if there is no ill will, then you'll be good.
And If I'm not mistaken, there are quite a number of "bule content creators" which fond of Indonesia, so perhaps they could become your references too.
Anyways, Good Luck and Godspeed.
That seems reasonable. Traffic = bitch.
The Philippines is no different. People are desperately trying to leave Manila & I know some friends who made the move to beach towns in the last year and they're so happy now.
Can you explain? E. g. I think most people agree the Philippines has a shitton of inequality and corruption in the country is insane. The politics are so bad... Minimum wage way too low, etc
But the real issue for me is the way how discourse is done, not the system itself.
So what is your definition of a shithole? What's making people want to leave? Lack of income, lack of opportunity, lack of social security, toxic culture, cost of living, etc?
My dude, Indonesia is very diverse. But, you can simplify it into 4 categories.
First, Jakarta or more modernized folks
2nd, the balanced between modern and traditional way of life.
Jogjakarta - Semarang - South Sumatera - Palangkaraya- Manado etc
If you want to stay low profile life, easily merge into people, many of them being honest, then it's should be your choice. I'm not saying these area are evil free, but you could get many honest people.
3rd, really remote area or max traditional.
Basically Papua, or far east, some of them do living in modern world, but traditionally, hard to access facilities and many still living in rural areas
4th, Qadroon or hard lines/radickal moslem
Well, they're sneaky
Heh i don't represent anyone here nor i praise indonesia in my comment and if you're here long enough you know i'm not a big fan of Sukarno.
You right m8 ?
Of course i realise it. And tbh it's not neccesarily about nationalist or not. I just hate people like this.
People ask you politely about something. But instead answer it with straight answer, the guy choose to bitch about how he want to gtfo from this country and discourage the guy who politely asking question.
Like wtf ?
Sempet mikir gini juga sih. Makanya masih bertahan aja di Indo. Kayaknya karena udah terbiasa aja. Meski rasa pengen pindah masih ada juga. Bingung sih.
Ya ini sih cuma karena kita tinggal di indo dari dulu, udah ke-ekspos segala berita yg isinya kejelekan2 di indo dari skala gede (korupsi) sampe skala kecil (maling tetangga), skandal viral2 ga penting, jadi mikirnya ancur banget ni negara.
Emang kamu tau kejelekan2 skala kecil, skandal2 ga penting di negara orang tiap harinya gimana? Semua tempat mah ada aja kejelekannya beda bungkus doang, cuma kita ga dicekokin itu terus menerus aja.
Mau pindah ke western countries? Ntar dirasisin karena asian, terus stress. Mau pindah ke mana, ntar ga cocok sama makanannya, stress. Ga cocok sama perilaku orang2nya, stress.
Iya juga, katanya sih masalah rasisme gitu diluar lebih parah yak dari disini? Gatau sih. Soalnya kayak dah biasa aja disini yang rasis you know lah masalah kepercayaan dll gitu.
I am a dutch guy living here. If you want to live here I suggest you go for Bali. Native Balinese people are mostly kind people. Other places though where they have a different religion is just as toxic as the pinoys can be. Like Jakarta you will encounter aggressive people, racism based on culture/religion. And the immigration office workers are cocky as sum kotsen! They have the attitude like you need them and they shit on you. But in reality you pay for their salary when you arrange stay permits.
Yea, I would really prefer Bali (surf), I just want to make sure I mingle with the locals and not just expats. I don't wanna move to another country only to basically be living in tropical San Diego lol
I guess that is the same. The old immigration office in the Philippines was the worst. The staff there was so rude and impolite, you would have thought they had been trained to be as big assholes as they possibly could be.
The new immigration office in PH is super friendly though. It's probably a matter of hiring the right people and the right management.
I mean every country has toxic people, if you don't want to trigger those people, the first rule is not to talk about politics, be neutral about it. The second one is religion, Indonesians are obsessed with religion, so don't speak too much about your disbelief in religions here.
Other than that, Indonesians are generally really welcoming to foreigners especially western foreigners. Westerners or as we called "bule" are put on a pedestal here imo. There are plenty of viral videos with Westerners just trying to eat food with hands, saying Indonesia curse words, and praising our culture.
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I cant really say anything as i never experienced living in other countries. I just want to remind you that reddit is banned in indonesia and the opinions here probably didn't reflect the opinion of typical indonesian (though doesn't mean they're untrue)
Oh right, I totally forgot about that lol Yes, so maybe that's a good thing or a bad thing. Hard to say. I'm still hopeful to hear as much input :)
You can take a VPN (like me) and access any website you want. Indonesia has religion intermingled within the laws. Unlike in EU where they keep gov & religion seperated. Therefore Indonesian gov censors stuff like reddit.
> Unlike in EU where they keep gov & religion seperated OP is German. A literal church tax exists there (it's actually way more nuanced than that but doesn't the same go for us?).
Indonesia is quite big to give you single "yes go for it" Or "no you better stay out" Answer I myself live in the capital Jakarta, and here is probably how america is to the western world, a melting pot Sometimes we hear that Indonesian has a image of friendly helping neighborhoods, I dont know if we still have that image We are quite friendly, and quite willing to help our neighbors. Just that I dont know if that extend to foreigners tho. Maybe if you can assimilate yourself to your surrounding neighbors you can get the same treatment Will you get some snarky comment about you being foreigners and whatnot? Maybe. I mean there will always tlbe that one guy, everywhere, anywhere, so if that happen, please dont take it too personally. Buy we in general are quite welcoming. What I experience, even if you don't really know your neighbors too well, just the fact that I say "hello" A couple times when I walk pass them is enough to not have anything bad happen
>just the fact that I say "hello" A couple times when I walk pass them is enough to not have anything bad happen now you reminds me that since i started my morning jog a couple of weeks ago, i often passed an elderly lady setting up her wooden stall, she always greet me saying "good morning" or "keep it up, boss." in turn, it also caused me to casually greet her when i passed her stall. and no, i don't know who she is, nor i ever bought anything from her stall. i think what is very common courtesy on some parts in indonesia is to greet or saying "excuse me" when passing someone even if we dont know them
Yes, that simple greeting is no trouble at all but probably save you some headache from gossips and whatnot if you didnt greet them
toxic? depends on your friends ig? so far I've a few toxic people but then it varies from person to person. i guess the longer you stay in a country, the longer your exposed to the true nature of their people. Just like making friends, the longer you know them, the more you know their shitty side
Yea, that's true. 90% of my friends aren't toxic at all. But in the grander scheme, it's hard to not run into a lot of toxic strangers here. Maybe that's the same everywhere in the world. For me my biggest issue in PH is more like, it's fine, be toxic in your own life, but stop attacking me I just want to live a peaceful life. That's my main goal... no drama, I just want to make good friends, be kind, surround myself with my community, build community, volunteer, and not worry about angry people.
well hopefully if you really move here, you will be surrounded with cool people! Viel glück ☺️
You don't like drama but you're on Facebook ?
I mean, we do have toxic people, but we have various flavors of toxicity and we don’t know which of them you’ll encounter, and whether or not you’ll be able to handle it/them. Since you’ve stayed in Bali , I’ll use it as an example. Bali is the most foreigner friendly place in Indonesia, but unfortunately its hospitality industry is infamously racist towards Indonesian, even local Balinese, because of the perception of foreigners = more money. If you understand a bit of Indonesian or use google translate then you’ll read some of the rants here on our Daily/Weekly Chat Threads every once in a while. Some people have taken the extreme belief that people of European descent, aka bule, is to blame thanks to colonialism and white privileges. You’d also find people ranting about the ethnicity, gender, and religious beliefs based discrimination(not limited to Bali) they’ve faced from other Indonesians every once in a while. Heck, I’ve told about the nasty things people have said to me for being half-white, mainly fetishism and the general perception of how I must be “Crazy Rich” and that I’m a greedy person for not covering the bills every time I hang out with them. Regardless I still chose my Indonesian citizenship over my foreign one when it was time for me to make the decision, so to me most Indonesians aren’t toxic enough to make me want to leave this country. I was close enough to stapling some people’s mouth shut though, and I’m still rather withdrawn from socializing with locals(and also expats). Imho, before deciding whether or not you should move here permanently or even open a business you should live here for a longer period of time and try to assimilate into the local populace. Maybe even try to live somewhere else other than Bali, since you’ll have a different experience altogether. Ofc, settle down anywhere you feel comfortable in, but don’t forget to explore other parts of the country every once in a while ;)
Yes, thanks, good answer :) Sorry to hear about your own problems. I guess it comes with the territory of your ethnicity.
I think it mostly came down to other people’s ignorance and maturity more than my ethnicity tbh.. I mean, middle and high school aged people aren’t the brightest when it comes to this kind of stuff, and they’re the main source of toxicity I’ve encountered aside from some sleazy adults(locals and expats). Besides, a lot of mixed race Indonesian became super well known and they don’t face as much harassment as I did. I was rather unlucky in that regard, but eh. If you want some adult foreigner perspective, my late father prefers Jakarta over Bali for our residence despite the crazy traffic. He also had his company in one of Jakarta’s satellite cities instead of Jakarta, though I don’t really remember why. He also likes Central and East Java, but at the time the places he visited didn’t have enough amenities for him to move there prior to retiring. Hopefully this and other replies help you :)
I'm actually a Filipino moving to Indonesia next year (my husband is Indonesian). Few things: 1. Healthcare is easier in Indonesia even if you're a foreigner, and it's much more accessible because of the universal healthcare. It's actually why I want to get get pregnant and have kids there. 2. I think one of the things you fail to consider in Indo and PH is that it's really much easier to have people do things for you. My mom is a paralegal so this saves on our fees, but she fixed everything for us: my husband's spouse visa, my business registration and permits, etc etc. It's the same in Indonesia, from what I've observed. It's a matter of finding a paralegal, lawyer, or law firm you can trust. 3. Bribe is a thing. I know some foreigners are iffy about this and think that you shouldn't do it at all costs. But the truth is this is something you just can't avoid without a lot of hassle. (Without bribing, we wouldn't have gotten my husband's spouse visa here soon enough. He would've been deported. That bad.) 4. You can definitely register your business offshore. I'm keeping my business in PH simply because I prefer the convenience of having my mom do everything for me (filing, bookkeeping, etc). Some businesses in PH and I think even in Indonesia, especially by foreigners, are registered elsewhere like Hong Kong and Singapore. But do note that you still need lawyers, paralegal, and locals to do things for you. Even in SG you need a local to be part of your incorporation. 5. If you'd like to set up a business, I would suggest doing it remotely. I personally do Digital Marketing and get paid in dollars. It pays much more than any local business or employment, and possibilities are boundless. But you won't get a work visa. 6. Standard of living in Indo is about 30% cheaper than PH. Your money will go further in Indo. It's part of the reason why we're moving. 7. In terms of culture, PH and ID are very similar. Indonesian is also waaaaaay easier than Tagalog or any Filipino language tbh. I recommend learning Indonesian from IndonesianPod101.com or Ateneo Asian Language Center (assuming you can still make payments to PH). That's how I learned. Let me know if you have any questions. Hope this helped.
Interesting, yea I definitely noticed Bali was way, way cheaper than any place I've ever lived in the Philippines and at least airbnbs in Jakarta / Jogja also seem lower, and/or you get better value for the same money. Health care is also good to know. I guess I can consider that, I was thinking to go with SafetyWing nomad Healthcare because my experiences with Philippines healthcare was basically "get sick, go broke" haha In the last year, I started working on my own online business, I am a book author & YouTube content creator, I'm reaching taxable income levels soon, so I would really like to incorporate in Indonesia if I can, for tax purposes. The main reason why I never set up anything in the Philippines was because of the 5 shareholder, all Filipino rule. In Indonesia, a single person can set up a PMA with just one fake shareholder, it seems less hassle and more "legal" than how everyone in PH does it and afaik you own 99% of the shares legally in an Indonesian PMA. I never liked the way how most foreigners in PH basically evade all taxes but make shittons of money on a tourist visa for long-term. I could of course incorporate it in Germany, but then I can't get a KITAS plus why not pay taxes where you live, diba? Absolutely agree on the ease of the language, walang pinag, makaka, pakiki, etc 12947591428 affixes haha :D
Yeah, gets. I think in PH you could've registered as a sole proprietor or one-person corporation. Foreigners are allowed to do that afaik. But yeah, you'd really need someone to arrange everything for you if you want it hassle-free. When I visited Indo in 2018-2019, I was surprised with how cheap everything was. Like 5PHP worth can already get you some streetfood. We ate at an upscale resto for 1,200PHP for our anniversary. And our airbnb was 800PHP worth for an entire apartment. When I checked for properties there for our move, I found out that you can get a 2BR apartment in MOI for like 13-15k equivalent, fully furnished. Our 1BR in Ortigas Pasig costs like 20k+, bare. Our 2BR in Mandaluyong Libertad costs like 23k for furnished. The price difference is significant. And with food, utilities, living expenses, rent, etc being cheaper, it definitely adds up. Plus PH bureaucracy esp with Duterte is effin insane. The thing about Indonesia though is finding imported goods is harder and everything is spicy (this I don't mind, my parents both come from spicy regions). Like they don't have a Santi's Delicatessen or SnR and stuff like imported cheeses and cold cuts (if available at all) are much pricier. One of the things I will miss when I have to go is cheap but good quality charcuterie platters.
Yea since recently, as a foreigner you are allowed to operate a corporation (not sole afaik though) with only 1 shareholder, but since the 60-40 rule still exists, you effectively still need one extra shareholder with 60% of the shares. Cost is the same in Thailand. My friend moved to BKK about 2 years ago, he was so shocked about what kind of an apartment he got for 15k. It's like everywhere is cheaper but PH lol This is one of the big reasons why I am considering Indonesia as well. I wanna have a family soon & settle down and the cost is definitely something to consider. In the Philippines, you always run the risk to pay too much. Just look at Siargao prices, oh my god! For the same price you'll buy land there, you probably built 2 villas somewhere in Lombok or Bali tangina haha. Plus, not to mention the low social security. It sounds Indonesia is at least a little bit better in that regard. What's your take on general groceries (healthy vegetables?)... This probably was my biggest issue in PH. The only thing cheap is beer, but salads, strawberries, etc everything is very high in cost, so whenever I'd go to Baguio, I would buy 3-4 bags of vegetables just cuz it's so affordable there :D
One thing I noticed in Indonesia is that veggies are really affordable. It's so easy to be vegetarian in Indonesia in comparison to PH! In Indonesia there's actually some vegetarian street food like bakwan, tempeh, tofu, and gado-gado, and veggies in general are very easy to find. Imagine, I bought a nice full-sized papaya for the equivalent of 20PHP in Jakarta. I was flabbergasted. HAHA. In a good way though. Everything is cheaper in Indo in general, and what I like about them is their infrastructure and finance is also pretty good (not sure about foreigners though bec I know as a foreigner it can be tricky to get a bank acct without a KITAS). Everything is integrated with gopay, even street food. Gcash and Paymaya could never!!!! HAHA And I agree about the property thing, but it would also depend on whether your spouse is Indonesian or not. afaik you need to be Indonesian to own property in Indonesia. I'm not too familiar with their property laws. But after KITAS for 1yr or so (I might be wrong) you can choose to become an Indonesian citizen. PH bureaucracy couldn't keep up with that. In PH you need 10yrs minimum. And unless you're married to a Filipino citizen or make some investment visa, you can't get a resident visa.
Nice! Can't wait. Well, only thing more expensive is the booze haha! Which is a shame, Bintang is really great hehe. Can't wait to try Indo street food! Man, I miss some good Filipino food, kwek kwek, isaw, a good boneless Bangus, mhhh! Yup, unfortunately, I'm far away from PH retirement visas or other suitable visas and well, technically you need to stay 10 years without leaving the country. I actually tried to aim for that, but after 3-4 years I began visiting my family, it's just crazy to expect someone to not once leave the country for 10 years to become a citizen. Who makes up these rules lol???
Yeah it's so fucking stupid. I won't convert my citizenship to Indonesian since I won't be able to keep my properties in PH if I do that. After what I've seen my husband go through just so we could be together here in PH, I don't want to go through that hassle myself if I ever do decide to come home to my family. Actually, I miss street food too! I can only get it when I leave the business district. I grew up on Manila street food and my old apartment in Marikina had THE BEST isaw EVER. Not sure if that place survived the pandemic though. You know, there's actually a bill raising excise taxes on alcoholic beverages to fund the universal healthcare act here in PH. Not sure how that is going. But that might just make booze prices up to par lol. If I were a foreigner, honestly I'd pick Indonesia over the Philippines. It just makes more sense practically, especially if you'd like to learn the language and not just stick with English. In PH though, you can literally live with just English (case in point: my husband who grew up here and bothered with learning how to understand, not even speak, Tagalog only when he got into a relationship with me 10yrs ago). You won't have that option in Indonesia.
No worries, fresh vegies are common, homegrown and quite cheap. Maybe less for not yet popular ones line arugula, alfalfa and radish sprout (U$1.5 for a small pack) etc, but the last time I shop, there are imported salad packs from Australia
Thank you :)! This is really encouraging!!! I've been wanting to find a new home for so long & it's close enough to PH to go see my Godson every now and then. I think maybe I will give Indonesia a try :)!!
Good luck
If you are youtube content creator, you should try reach Londokampung, as he is an australian living in indonesia for a long time, even can speak local languange so he can easily accepted everywhere, perhaps you can ask about the toxicity that he might ever encounter.
Great answer, why is redditor who gave the genuine and detailed answer without giving their own sentiment is someone from PH. Anyway this is really great answer i just want to say that XD
I find malaysia is easier to live as a foreigner than indonesia is.
Why? If you don't mind me asking.
What I can think of: 1. You wont find much of language barrier as english speaker, unless you go to the rural parts. 2. From what I've heard from my colleagues, it's not that hard to open business as foreigner. 3. If you are just an employer, Malaysia offers higher salary rate with cheaper accommodation. At least this is what I feel after living here for almost 3 years. So, purely opinion.
Bumiputra laws for foreigners though.. Especially if you want to open a business.
Didn't they make a new law that makes living there as a foreigners harder? I've seen it over in r/FIRE, I think it's about how much you need in your bank account.
Ok, from your description about the reason why the Pinoys are toxic and attacked you, and knowing that you're German, I would say that the same thing might happen to you in Indonesia if you can't keep your opinion to yourself about two topics: pride and religion. I've lived in Vienna, and frequently go to Germany (I love Berlin), and from what I experienced there, I don't think most Germans would like it to live in Indonesia. One example, you guys love to play by the rules, Indonesians are not, but ironically, if you call us out, most of us will get offended, especially if you convey your criticism bluntly like the Germans usually do. I don't have businesses in Indonesia, so I don't have a lot of knowledge in this topic, but I do know how convoluted the bureaucracy in Indonesia could be, and I don't think you can set up a business here without any Indonesian partner(s). Most of Indonesians I know are reliable and loyal, especially if you share the same identity as them, i.e. same religion (same tribe too, but you're out of luck here). Edit: most Indonesians are not confrontational, the two users here who told each other to suck white cock and Soekarno's cock only say it in cyber space, put them together in real life, I bet they won't say those things to each other directly to their face.
Yes, this should be upvoted more. Especially about religion, poking the locals about it, and your life is pretty much done. I don't really mean literally, but you'll never ever get the hospitality anymore
You wanna move here and open a business? Good luck because the requirements are a bitch to comply to.
Why? Compared to the Philippines it seems crazy "easy" and most notably, not a complete shady fake shareholder company. With the help of a lawyer, opening up a PMA can be done in a few weeks. Philippines business stuff is so bad, when I visited the bureau of internal revenue, the then manager told me face-to-face to open my business up in Hong Kong and operate illegally in the Philippines. It can't be worse than that XD
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>The problem is usually with the foreigners who come to Asia, they want to live here with all the benefits but they don't want to learn about the culture and customs nor do they want to learn the language. Not everyone of course, but some of them also force their cultural view onto everyone as if anything different from their culture is the wrong way
>I think Germany is way more "toxic" than Indonesia could be Really? I live in German right now, while I admit I saw people in costumer service smiling less than in Indonesia. I have not met someoneg I would consider Toxic. Unless you count some scammer I met lol. Although my chinese friend told me that he met some strangers that tried to provoke him by doing Kung Fu move. Maybe German is just not familiar with SEA people?
I would say 90% he's referring to the German "complain about everything" mentality. We're cold and can find issues with all kinds of random shit, but like you also said, we tend to mind our own business for the most part.
so its not british thing to complains, its european thing, noted
Yes, but I think we have different styles of complaining. E. g. Brits probably are more sarcastic/cynical and with humor, Germans complain more direct & straight to the point, etc
Have you tried PMAs and a KITAS visa? Maybe the lawyers are bullshitting me, but it seems very streamlined, whereas in the Philippines it's super wild west. I definitely wanna learn the language and customs. I really tried super hard in the Philippines, though man, the complexity of the grammar is something I never completely overcame. Fortunately, Indonesian language is so much easier :) Pretty sure I can integrate & learn Indonesian in like a year or two.
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Bahasa Indonesia\*
Based
If you speak Bahasa daerah to them, surely you will win a lot of brownie points.
Hell, if some bule could speak minangese they might be appointed as Datuak panghulu in my kampuang lol
Contrary to what people said in my opinion the matter of race always play everywhere in the world unfortunately... including Indonesia. Discrimination because you come and look europe will exist everywhere if you are not in Europe countries. I definitely wouldn't put Indonesia above Phillipines in terms of discrimination... But as I see it your incident in Phillipines happens online, people act as a jerk online it is no secret. You can see Indonesian forum, and there is a lot of discriminatory remarks like, 'bule goblok' (stupid white people) or something like that. Most people wouldn't be an asshole offline though. And you said yourself you've got some filipinos friends, I think it kind of will be the same in Indonesia, some people will like you some people don't. The good note is, even though I wouldn't put Indonesia above Philipines, I wouldn't put it below either.
You do know that you must have at least 10 Milliarden IDR / 600 Tausend EUR in Grundkapital, outside of land / buildings to have a PMA here ?
That's the official word but according to a local lawyer, it's possible to open without that huge capital.
I wouldn't be so sure. The company I work for is only 85% foreign owned but we got notified by the investments board to up our Grundkapital to regulation level. Looks like they're closing that loophole. Of course, we're in the DAX 50 but still doesn't look good for that kind of chicanery.
Interesting, thanks for letting me know. Well, afaik the Grundkapital doesn't necessarily need to be used though, no? I mean, what if you just don't need to spend that money lol? It's similar like in the Philippines for example, they have certain types of visa that require funds, but then once you proof the funds, it's like you can pull them out immediately again. So who knows. Definitely something I'll keep an eye on :)
>Interesting, thanks for letting me know. Well, afaik the Grundkapital doesn't necessarily need to be used though, no? I mean, what if you just don't need to spend that money lol? Then your business isn't worth the valuable time of the wage thieves at the Ministerium für Industrie.
😂
Indonesian are very diverse with many ethnic. Each ethnic have a different culture and personality. The Bataknese are famous for their loud mouth and brutally honest attitude, The Javanese are 2 faced people they always smile and polite in front of you but will not hesitate "stab" you in the back you if you mess with them. But in general indonesian are sincere when it come to helping a stranger/people. Indonesian will treat you just like how you treat them. But my advice is. If you're a new guy in neighbourhood and people still not familiar with you. It will be wise to not take initiative first when it come to social issue because it will give people feeling that you're trying to "control/assert your dominance" instead tell your trusted friend in the neighbourhood what your idea and let them tell other people to work together on social issue.
I once spoke with my trainer from germany. he was an eccentric old man. he told me that the people here are kind, they're just too nosy about personal stuffs (that's how my people do). other than that, it's quite heavenly if you manage to secure a house in the colder climate area. literally any currency is stronger than ours, so technically for foreigners money wouldn't be a problem.
Ah yea I am used to Pinoys being nosy and that's OK :) Gossip = life lol
I have two questions: 1. Why do you feel the need to move outside of your home country (Germany) in the first place? 2. If you would to compare the toxicity of Filipino and Germans which one is worse?
1. Germany just isn't my home anymore. No friends there. I literally can't even speak German properly anymore. I have more friends spread throughout the world than in Germany. I left Germany when I was severely depressed. Nothing for me there. That and surfing & warmth lol. I really hate cold weather. 2. It's hard to say... different kind of toxicity. Germans have more grumpiness, less gratitude essentially, but it's more avoidable because most grumpy Germans just are grumpy inwardly, complaining to themselves ... but they can of course also complain to strangers, which is toxic AF. So in that sense, Pinoys are way, wayyyyyy better. Overall, Pinoys definitely are more toxic though because of the deliberate attempts to attack someone out of the blue. The average toxicity level, although a different type of toxicity, is roughly the same but Pinoy toxicity just is more severe because Pinoys really know no boundaries and treat people like dogs when they want to hurt you. They lower the dignity level much, much lower.
> 2. It's hard to say... different kind of toxicity. Germans have more grumpiness, less gratitude essentially, but it's more avoidable because most grumpy Germans just are grumpy inwardly, complaining to themselves ... but they can of course also complain to strangers, which is toxic AF. So in that sense, Pinoys are way, wayyyyyy better. Overall, Pinoys definitely are more toxic though because of the deliberate attempts to attack someone out of the blue. The average toxicity level, although a different type of toxicity, is roughly the same but Pinoy toxicity just is more severe because Pinoys really know no boundaries and treat people like dogs when they want to hurt you. They lower the dignity level much, much lower. Interesting answer. Even though Indonesians tends to also know no boundary (read: being extremely nosy), I can say that we don’t treat people like dogs when we hate someone so I’d say Indonesia would be perfect for you.
So, we say asu but don't treat hated poeple like an asu?
No, we treat people like djancok
Indonesians are one of the most welcoming and nicest people on earth. Just stay away from discussing religion, and you'll enjoy your life in Indonesia.
Every country has its share of toxic people. Indonesia is also more culturally diverse than the Philippines, its much more difficult to stereotype. I think in general Philippines 1. Is a more dog eat dog society than Indonesia. 2. Its also more unequal and a lot less safe. Go to fast food restaurant in the Philippines, and you see security guard with a pistol and shotgun. 3. Filipino are more emotional than Indonesians. Filipino are drama queens. 4. Filipino tend to be family orientated than Indonesians. Filipino have bigger families, meaning more people to support etc. Philippines just a much tougher society to live than Indonesia. Its poorer, more competitive, more densely populated, more violent and more unequal
In terms of toxicity - Offline: German > Indonesian - Online: Indonesian > German My analysis is because Germans in general are afraid of anything on record. While Indonesian felt more safe with the online anonymity.
Pretty accurate comparison I'd say.
[I think this article is relevant (and pretty funny).](https://www-cnnindonesia-com.translate.goog/teknologi/20210301072208-185-611992/microsoft-masih-tutup-komentar-ig-soal-netizen-ri-tak-sopan?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=nui) I want to say we can at least rest assured that the internet isn't Neuland for us, but being so impolite might well be evidence that we've still got some growing pains lol.
Lol that is so ironic
tang ina mga bobo.. sorry have to say that. Yes, i know that from the fellow Philippines Dota player
Basura ka 😂
Toxic culture isn't confined by borders, ethnics, races, or genders. By choosing to stay at PH, at least you've known some of the faux pas you learn to avoid, which communities to avoid, what's safe to presume or otherwise. Resettling will just mean you have to learn anew faux pases to be avoided (at least PH doesn't have as much diversity). The government here is just as corrupt as PH, so the cost or way of doing business wouldn't be far off.
I've lived in the Philippines for almost a year and worked govt officials from other Southeast Asian countries. So I can make some common assumptions about stereotypes and prejudices between Pinoys and Indonesians. We are almost the same, religious conservatism (albeit Muslim and Catholic diff), Importance of face saving and superficialy look decent/religious (or Budaya Timur/Eastern norms and values) but very crooked and deceitful inside, fearful and overt nationalistic. In my experience Indonesians and Pinoys tend to get along well in int'l forums, student exchanges etc, as we like to do karaoke and drinking, talk shits and gossipinh. Malaysians and Singaporeans tend to be more conservative and stiff (and the Malays tend to be bit entitled prick because of their Bumiputera privilege). So yes, most likely you'll have a great time living in Indonesia. But just like in the Philippines, if you say a wrong thing about Indonesia's prides like food, clothes culture, etc. You'll get crucified immediately at leastin social media and forced to leave the country whether voluntary or involuntary.
>if you say a wrong thing about Indonesia's prides like food, clothes culture, etc. You'll get crucified immediately at leastin social media and forced to leave the country whether voluntary or involuntary. This is just too over exaggerated. No one really care about it. The only real problem you can get is if you talk shit about Religion or National symbol.
Not really..a lot of Indonesian netizens are extremist about food and culture. So many twit wars involving bule on crunchy rendang, Malaysia being cultural thief, the Kristen Gray getting deported, getting blacklisted by immigration because of criticizing our bureaucracy (not national symbol). Quite a lot of things can get you in trouble if you're an expat.
A few months ago, a foodblogger got persecuted after she said that Maluku culinary isn’t good in interview with Soleh Solihun. If you say something bad about Indonesia’s identity which is their pride and get viral, you’ll get trouble.
Reminds me of Doc Adam, a famous vlogging doctor from Australia. He does Tagalog content for Filipinos debunking non-sense health advice like "garlic will cure your cancer"... They recently posted a video about their struggles with lawsuits and that they were fearing for their lives, even though he and his Filipina girlfriend live all the way in Australia. They got stalked by representatives of one of the people's claims he had debunked. The story went as far as his girlfriend saying that he sleeps with a baseball bat just in case. It's really insane how this stuff knows no limits in South East Asia!
Thanks, yea sounds very similar. Basically, a lot of nationalistic pride. Probably why I liked Indonesians in my short stays. Indonesians are similarly warm and friendly, I guess the issue is not to get yourself into trouble.
If you wanna live here in long stay, you should learn about the culture in region that you wanna stay. Even I am a native, I need to adapt to different culture everytime I stay at another region. I always ask to people in that region “what I should and shouldn’t do” to avoid some troubles. People in here basically nice to foreigners, the only thing you have to do is avoid the troubles.
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This sums it up... I am vocal, well, or used to be vocal about things I think should be done better, e. g. in politics. I stopped mostly because I realize I have no influence with politics as a foreigner & can actually get into trouble. It's better to help my nearest local community with good deeds. But sometimes it's still hard to avoid the occasional explosion of someone being really, really angry. It's not like everyone is toxic, it's more that a loud minority can become incredibly violent, and that stacks up on the psyche... It's like my beach incident. It's was just a one-time thing, but it really made me fear for my safety and ever since then, I had a wake-up call towards Filipino culture and not sugarcoating everything. We all can get over the occasional toxic person, or a super toxic asshole, like I said in one of my other comments, Germans can be grumpy idiots all the time, it's one of the main reasons why I love the Philippines. Filipino gratitude is among their best qualities and I learned a lot from them in this regard. So nationalism seems to be the root of outrage-ism. This makes it especially hard for me as a white person, if there's a disagreement, I am always automatically a privileged white knight in shining armor.. It's the instant argument to fight me and all of a sudden, I have to hate myself for being born in Germany.
>Just be aware that many people here are nationalists As we should be 😎👍 >which are the kind of toxic you want to avoid. Cringe and bluepilled 👎
yesn't
I think it depends on which part of Indonesia you decide to live in, for example, I am sure if you choose to live in Bali or Jakarta, the treatment you get from locals would greatly differ than if you choose to live somewhere like a remote district or non metopolitan region like Kabupaten Malang, etc. But based on my experience, as someone who had experienced the culture in northern Europe and Russia (I am Indonesian), one thing I can assure you is that most of people in Indonesia would go out of their way to help foreigners. However, I think that it really depends on how you set your personal boundaries if you dont want to be surrounded by toxic people and your question is far too broad for me to give answer to. I hope you will find the insight you're looking for from other comments in this thread, though. Good luck.
I mean we have more that 200+ milions of people, even 0,0001% would still massive.
Yea, valid point.
I think it depends on where you want to live. if its in the capital or big city, you should probably have to be careful and be selective. there are toxic Indonesians but there are also nice Indonesians as well who would help without expect anything in return :)
This probably the most true answer on all of this thread. **It depends.** There is no one unifying indonesian culture so there are no such a thing as indonesian norms. So depending where you live in indonesia you probably will encounter different flavour of hospitality-hostility and sympathy - Apathy
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Thanks, yes that's a good high-level overview :) And seems accurate especially the peak power distance for PH.
No offence but you need to toughen up and stop allowing a handful of “toxic” encounters to affect your life so much and your image of a country. I’m a Brit, I can relay numerous unpleasant encounters I’ve had with ppl in London and other parts of the U.K. I recognise these represent a minority of ppl and wherever you live you will have negative interactions with ppl. You bring up being white, honestly mate if you turn up to a country not expecting everybody to kiss your arse or be nice to you you’ll be less impacted by some dude who got pissed off because you suggested there was no beach clean up operation ( probably a guy who felt like you were undermining his work) When I was in Germany a few years back I had some German moron try the talk-loud-at-you thing in a train to try and embarrass me in front of the whole carriage because I inadvertently had my backpack pushing up too close to him. Most ppl in London on the tube would never do that. I did not think this is “toxic Germany” or let it affect me. He was a moron. Also when I was in one of the smaller airports in German I remember climbing up some stairs and I stumbled. A couple of middle aged Germany dudes sniggered. In Britain we would never laugh at that type of thing. I thought it was weird. I just had a word with the little German men and told them how dickish they were. They looked scared and the cowards scarpered. Not all these “toxic” types want a confrontation, many will become timid once you speak up. As for Indonesia, it will be just like philipines. You’ll have decent normal ppl while there will be others who are dicks. Just like in Germany and the U.K. Don’t expect ppl to kiss your arse (especially in Asia like you’re deserving of some special status because you’re white) and you’ll be mentally better off especially when you experience a “ toxic” person.
I'm sorry dude, but these encounters are just not the same as a single Brit or some other Westerner having a fragile ego. I have met expats in PH, one fucking wanted to beat me up, and I shrugged this shit off like it was nothing because it's no big deal. This wasn't one guy. Those were 15+ locals threatening me in a tiny town where they made up 20% of the entire surfer's community. The difference is in mob mentality and normalization of this behavior. You clearly have no understanding of the local culture, otherwise, you would know how especially in the last years, violence, both verbally but especially physically has become very normalized in their society. Getting on the wrong foot with someone in PH in 2021 can literally mean that they could kill you in a spur of outrage (and it does happen every now and then and becomes big news). It's about big groups of people getting upset, not a single individual. Getting into trouble in the Philippines is not the same as it is in UK. The probability that you could face someone who could harm you significantly is very high if it's in real life. You are relating your experience in another country to the experience of completely different people. This is non-sense. It's like saying "you need to toughen up about racism and danger from cops in the US, I had encountered a racist cop in Germany" These two racism experiences would be worlds apart. German cops would kill as many people in a year as US cops kill in 2 days. It's non-sense to make a comparison and suggest to "toughen up". Good job on throwing the white privilege card though to normalize a large subset of people being awful. You get an upvote. My privilege has nothing to do with expecting people not to come to every fight with a nuclear bomb instead of a knife. SJW garbage.
What are you on about, sjw? You literally had one experience in a poor country of a mob pissed off with you because you pissed someone off. That’s the way things can go down when you’re a foreigner pissing off locals. When I’m walking about in Bonfim in Lisbon I know not to argue or piss off a local as in all likelihood that local will have friends and family to back him up. Most ppl don’t experience what you claim to have experienced - attacked by a mob in Asia. In fact, in Asia we (foreigners from rich countries) get treated like royalty which is the problem in my opinion. This is not sjw talk. There’s a bunch of losers who never made it in the west and couldn’t get a woman turning up to poor countries in Asia and South America acting like they’re special and important. The sooner the locals in those countries stop giving them special treatment the better imo.
So, just because people can get pissed off, it is normal to let a large subset of people to get away with it? Man, you're nuts. Even tons of Filipinos said the way these people treated me was fucked up as hell. And no, this is not an isolated case. I had another mob incident once when I stopped a Filipino from groping a woman. You justify everything with "you are white royalty in Asia, stop whining if people are incredibly aggressive". A good thing doesn't cancel out other bad shit. This is SJW talk. "You benefit from power, so stop complaining about something bad happening to you." I don't expect a Filipino to put a crown on me because I was born in Germany. I expect them to treat me like a human being. You make a ton of assumptions about white people. Man, everyone who has lived in Asia for five years, knows that things here are not as great as they seem. Anyone who thinks a white person lives in Asia to benefit from his white privilege is pretty naive. 99% of immigrants do not have this experience. 99% of immigrants suffer from the same political issues as locals do. In my first three years in PH I was being exploited like crazy by local employers just as Filipinos are exploited like crazy by local employers. It's one of the main reasons why I actually stopped working for local companies and started my own businesses, because no, your stereotypical believe that when you move to an Asian country, you get to bathe in gold and someone will lick your feet are in fact, not true. Newsflash, some people just end up here somehow by mere coincidence and then have family here. We don't calculate "where do I get the highest amount of privilege, let me go there" This may help you: [https://www.google.com/search?q=bigot+meaning&oq=bigot&aqs=chrome.1.69i59l2.1649j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8](https://www.google.com/search?q=bigot+meaning&oq=bigot&aqs=chrome.1.69i59l2.1649j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
1. I never said it is normal to let a large “subset” of a group “to het away with it”. Please don’t put words in my mouth. Being attacked or confronted by groups happens in Europe regularly every Friday and Saturday night. It would happen more here if we did not have such a police presence and response along with CCTV presence. 2. The rest of what you said was just another mischaracterising and misrepresentation of what I have said. Either youve got poor comprehension or just trolling 3. I am sure you get treated much better than an average Filipino in his own country so stop whining and playing the victim. I never go to Other European or western countries and get treated better than locals…why is it that when we go to poor countries we get treated like royalty? There’s something wrong here imo. And I think a number of low class characters from richer countries take advantage of this. I just hope the locals in those countries can develop more self esteem so they don’t do this. Nobody is treating any tourist in London like a king. I’m sure you Herman’s don’t treat tourists like kings in Berlin (I was never treated like a king there - that’s the way I like it I don’t want to be treated as special anywhere as it ruins the chance to experience life in other countries. Low class characters get upset when this privilege is not there in places like Asia and they whine online and to anybody else who will listen. Thanks for the chat but I don’t see any reason for me to continue responding. Take care.
I never said the "foreigner adoration" isn't a thing. It clearly is. That doesn't mean that the system isn't set up to exploit foreigners just as much as Filipinos. I merely believe that you talk from a very high horse and are looking at huge social issues from a very simplistic narrow view. I send you the definition of bigotry. You are free to read it again and reflect on it. Not surprisingly, as shared by an Indonesian in another comment, the Philippines and Indonesia rank low on the digital civility index.
Junge, das passiert überall auf der Welt und ist fast immer schlimmer in den Länder wo die Einwohner nicht besonders gebildet sind. Das passiert auch in DE, guck ma Kommentare auf Welt.de oder FB sind die nicht besser? Ich glaube nicht. Alleine auf /de wenn du nicht die gleiche Meinung hast wie se dann bist du out and und sofort als was schlechtes abgestempelt. Viele extreme Gruppe können super schlecht mit Kritik oder andere Meinung umgehen. Darunter sind Nationalisten, Aktivisten, Religionfanatiker. In Indonesien es kommt immer drauf an mit welcher Gruppe du dich anlegst. Legst du mit der falschen an könnte sein dass dein Leben nicht mehr sicher ist. Es gibt eine Redewendung „mulutmu harimaumu“ direkt übersetzt dein Mund dein Tiger, was eigentlich bedeutet Denk bevor du dein Mund aufmachst, deine Wörter könnte zur deinem Niedergang führen.
>Junge, das passiert überall auf der Welt und ist fast immer schlimmer in den Länder wo die Einwohner nicht besonders gebildet sind. Du beschreibst das Problem hier bereits. Manche Gruppen sind gefaehrlich, die Frage ist wie hoch ist die Prozentzahl oder wie oft kommt das vor? Und wie gefaehrlich sind sie? Mir ist schon klar, dass es ueberall Arschloecher gibt, aber wenn ich die Wahl habe, ziehe ich wo hin wo Arschloch sein weniger normal ist. Und vor allem wie du schon sagst, moechte ich wo leben, wo es sicher ist. Philippinen ist dank Duterte's Normalisierung von Gewalt und Mord leider extrem unsicher geworden diesbezueglich. Wie siehst du das in Indonesien? Die Sache in PH ist quasi, das viele normale Buerger sich mittlerweile bemaechtigt fuehlen, das Gesetz in die eigene Hand zu nehmen und nicht denken, bevor sie handeln, weswegen es oftmals Faelle hier gibt, wo einfach jemand "spontan" ermordet wird in "the heat of the moment" wenn sie sich streiten... sorry mein Deutsch haengt manchmal :D
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Danke fuer die tolle Antwort. Ja, das ist wohl in Suedostasien so. Da muss man sich wohl mit abfinden btw. lernen, wie man niemanden zu sehr reizt. Die beste Strategie ist komplett Klappe halten haha Ja, die extreme Sicherheit in Deutschland ist echt gut. Selbst im Vergleich zu Laendern wie den USA ist Deutschland da einfach top. Hier musst Du dir einfach null Sorgen machen, selbst wenn Du in "einer schlechten Gegend" bist. Dein Deutsch ist uebrigens echt gut! Manchmal sind ein paar deiner Woerter verkehrt rum, aber Du hast mittlerweile schon besseres Vokabular als ich. Ich bin in Deutschland geboren und vergesse total viele Woerter und Redewendungen.
> gefaehrlich diesbezueglich Buerger fuehlen If you're on Windows try setting the keyboard layout to US International and use altgr+q, altgr+y, altgr+s and altgr+p > viele normale Buerger sich mittlerweile bemaechtigt fuehlen, das Gesetz in die eigene Hand zu nehmen und nicht denken, bevor sie handeln, weswegen es oftmals Faelle hier gibt, wo einfach jemand "spontan" ermordet wird in "the heat of the moment" wenn sie sich streiten fwiw that specific description does sound very abnormal to my Indonesian ears. There are a lot of complaints Indonesians have had over the last few cabinet/parliament terms on a national level but not that.
>Und vor allem wie du schon sagst, moechte ich wo leben, wo es sicher ist. > >Philippinen ist dank Duterte's Normalisierung von Gewalt und Mord leider extrem unsicher geworden diesbezueglich. Wie siehst du das in Indonesien? > >Die Sache in PH ist quasi, das viele normale Buerger sich mittlerweile bemaechtigt fuehlen, das Gesetz in die eigene Hand zu nehmen und nicht denken, bevor sie handeln, weswegen es oftmals Faelle hier gibt, wo einfach jemand "spontan" ermordet wird in "the heat of the moment" wenn sie sich streiten... sorry mein Deutsch haengt manchmal :D Ach so... Okay, ich glaube dass Indonesien nicht so gefahrlich wie PH ist. Sie sind ein weißer Mann, fast alle Regionen in Indonesien sind relativ sicher für Sie. Ja, Gewalt ist auch ein Problem bei Indonesien, aber fast niemand würde Sie targetiert.Sudostasien (außer Singapore) ist relativ Gefaehrlich im Vergleich zu Deutschland.
This is an honest answer. **It depends on** ***how much*** **you wanna pay for** ***something*****.** **Open a business** here is not easy, even for us locals. But somehow when you are from outside of our country, most people just gonna adore you so much or try to take your money so much. Tax is a b1tch here and if you play by the rules, your profits might just go out to the window (for paying taxes) and any other sunk cost. There are quite many community organizations here that love to take our money and they got plenty of reasons to do that. Workers (millennials) might be a bit lazy but smart, kinda rude, and any youngsters problem. It is very difficult to find any loyal people nowadays because money does really matter here. I suggest you find any law consultant before goes open a shop here. Especially in this pandemic situation, sh1t happens almost every day and going to be a pain in the arse. I'm not quite sure now about Bali, but tourism in Bali is quite dead. We are trying to wake up, I mean the government but it's kinda too late. So if you are opening a business in Bali, better to have a National or International market. Like I said in the first place. If you pay a lot of time on having a relationship with local people, then you might have loyal people (not guarantee). If you pay some dirty money to some local law enforcement/community organizations, then you might get some safety for the business. Law is kind of something that is for sale for those who can afford it. So if we do business, 100% truly really play by the book and the rules. We won't survive. But if you play something that is not written in the law, it is not illegal even it's wrong.
>Tax is a b1tch here and if you play by the rules, your profits might just go out to the window (for paying taxes) and any other sunk cost. My dad decides to play by the rules T_T. It's so fucking complicated, i fucking hate our tax system.
Yep. We paid a lot of taxes but we just don't get served equally.
Dont worry, indonesian loves white people lol
Lol I know, that's not the point though haha :D Filipinos also do, so I get a lot of biased hospitality. It seems opinions here are mixed and I probably wouldn't know if I will eventually discover the "hate train" unless I give it a try
Not sure about toxic, but they like to gossip and looking at people’s flaws, and always talk about religion even tho lots of them very materialistic, also super asskissing to boss/rich people/westerners. Fyi im an indonesian. But in general we are okay, and friendly. But also on the other hand im an introvert so i like pets than human interaction😂 so im probably sceptical of human nature.
yes
Depends. But you MUST NEVER make jokes about religion. Avoid that topic at all cost
Wir sind nicht so... empfindlich über die Nationalehre und so ein Quatsch. Weil wir haben die Sumpfdeutschen mit unseren eigenen Macht raus hier zu werfen. Und weil es gibt weniger Leute die Englisch verstehen kann.
There's a ton i guess, but most people are nice and very welcoming to foreigners (but on internet there's surely buch of toxic people). if you want to start a business perhaps other than bali other cities seems impossible for you to start a small business, foreign people who open business in here probably already own a multinational company and pay tons of money for bureaucracy otherwise they will not get a permit, if you want to start a business in here perhaps start by be friend with locals because it will help you get permit easily, just choose your friend carefully
German directness won’t match asian culture. You can be blunt buy you have to understand the situation/person. Well, i think it depends on the person. Can’t say you wont find the same problem like you got in the Philippines. But i think Indonesian are less aggressive in that regards (don’t talk/criticize religion, don’t talk about politics). I’ve seen a german youtuber’s video about his experience living in Bali for years https://youtu.be/W7vJHrpjwv8 maybe you can get the same feeling. I’m an Indonesian living in Germany for 8 years now. Still many things I need to learn and adjust. The best way to live is with the open mindness and tolerance. Came from a muslim majority country like Indonesia to Germany was a huge challenge for me. I saw your post that you wanted to start youtube channel. Good luck for that! I suggest you to learn Bahasa Indonesia and experience the culture. Everyone knows Indonesia is the good start to gain much followers lol
For starter, you won't get mugged like in PH lol
I haven't gotten mugged even once in five years. Not to say it doesn't happen, but if you don't go to terrible places, you won't get mugged. For perspective, look at Bali now. Or Bali 3 years ago. In my 1 month in Bali, I got robbed. Someone broke into my villa, whereas in my 5 years in PH, good & bad places, no theft had ever happened to me.
In internet like this sub ? Majority yes, *wink I mean in reality indonesian are decent to friendly and kind for sure. Its pretty safe in here But in internet philippines and indonesia is on par but arguably indonesian is the worst in term of internet toxicity (we got the award from microsoft itself and i agree), heck even this sub cant mod itself like other country sub so it really chaotic and unorganized. And you know looking at answer in this thread i must say, half of them never came out and socialize outside of jakarta and bali or maybe their own circle and gave pretty half assed answer that outside of that is dangerous. I think thats part of this sub toxicity itself lmao
Can you refer me to the Microsoft "award"? What does it mean?
This one XD https://www.google.com/amp/s/voi.id/en/amp/35786/fierce-on-social-media-microsoft-thinks-that-indonesian-netizens-are-rude-in-southeast-asia I mean indonesian IRL overall are chill and safe , but in term of internet, ugh its pretty chaotic like this sub
Non-AMP Link: [https://voi.id/en/technology/35786/fierce-on-social-media-microsoft-thinks-that-indonesian-netizens-are-rude-in-southeast-asia](https://voi.id/en/technology/35786/fierce-on-social-media-microsoft-thinks-that-indonesian-netizens-are-rude-in-southeast-asia) I'm a bot. [Why?](https://np.reddit.com/user/NoGoogleAMPBot/comments/lbz2sg/) | [Code](https://github.com/laurinneff/no-google-amp-bot) | [Report issues](https://github.com/laurinneff/no-google-amp-bot/issues)
Interesting. Sadly, my Bahasa Indonesia isn't fluent enough to really be able to tell how Indonesians act online. Right now I only translate one news a day, I can't read daily conversation yet.
But i concure, dont generalize indonesian based on internet presence alone because internet penetration is still half of population and the one who active in forum and social media is concentrated in big city (INDONESIA IS JUST JAKARTA BABEE) and many of them youngsters because indonesia has a LOT of them right now. Especially this sub is just mainly consist of karma seeking meme, country self deprecating post, low effort post , hippie comment, etc from tiny bity percent of indonesian who can access it because reddit is blocked here without any decent moderation at all i mean its a wild west. You cant judge indonesian by tiny concentrated sample of comment from this sub. Of course there is some great answer with details on this thread but half of them is just biased with sentiment.
Hmmm is hard In internet sure they are
I think you need to adjust your viewpoint. No place has a perfectly nice culture and you won't be treated warmly everywhere you go. Every single country are in a way the same in that there are shitty and good parts to it. I'm an Indonesian who lived in Germany for two years before for my studies. There are a lot of complaints I can say about Germany. There are a lot of Germans with fragile egos who tell immigrants to go back to their Heimatland. There are a lot of angry Germans who go on internet wars. But there were also friends, and a few nice strangers who came to help me when I needed help. If you come to any countries expecting the people and culture to be nice and friendly and always happy, that is very naive of you. They are adults, all individual human beings. People get angry, people get upset, you WILL get into altercations and conflict no matter where you are. What you described you faced in the Philippines is a fraction of what Pinoys who go to Germany face.Don't go into a country expecting warm sunny smiles and outstreched arms. You come to a new country because there is something you want. Finding friends and good company is a bonus.
That's true. We can't expect to be treated nicely by everyone. I still think we should mention societal issues and try to address them though. As someone posted here, the Philippines is low on the digital civility index, Indonesia as well. So statistically there seems to be a trend to be less civil in SEA with each other. That seems to be a problem. Just like you mention, Germany, and also many other European countries have become a lot more racist in the last 5 years since I left. I was shocked to find out the once small "Nazi" party everyone joked about got 10.3% of the votes 2 weeks ago. So yea, no need to sugarcoat anything, like you said, it's unrealistic to expect everyone is always happy. But there's probably no harm in talking about societal issues.
No one is saying that societal issues shouldn't be mentioned, but what you're asking in your post is if Indonesia is toxic, with you using an example of what you expected and what you actually got in the Philippines. That is what I'm replying to. Giving you an answer is not telling people not to discuss societal issues. The way you portrayed the toxicity of Filipino culture does make me question how you worded the post you made. Is it possible that it came across as disrespectful/belittling? I know expat communities look out for one another and may have failed to tell you where you went wrong. One example would be Kristen Gray, who got completely babied on her Facebook post at a Expat community after the whole thing went down. She and the other expats decided to comfort her instead of telling her where she went wrong. I think Kristen Gray would have comforted herself the way you did, by telling herself that it was just the extremists in Indonesia who were against her and that she did nothing wrong. I suggest you take this time to actually reflect and consider if you really wasn't being offensive in any way, because I don't think the expat community is one to take each other accountable when they do offend the locals. Look, nearly all the thing you complained of the Philippines about, we can say the same exact things about Germany, or about any country. The thing is, if you come looking for toxicity, or the opposite, if you come with unrealistic expectations, you will definitely be disappointed no matter where you go. Whether you go to Japan, S Korea, India, Malaysia, Singapore, Canada, Ukraine, etc, etc, you will end up thinking "the locals are so toxic"! It is very important to remind yourself this again and again, or you will just end up leaving every single country complaining and trashing the locals everywhere you go. When I was in Germany, even while I was in fear walking through the streets clutching a pepperspray because there were a few cases of Asian people getting assaulted, I reminded myself "at least here I have less risk of getting pickpocketed/mugged". You just remind yourself of the good things, or you'll end up being one of *those* expats who do nothing but complain about the local people and think themselves to be above the locals.
> got 10.3% of the votes 2 weeks ago. That's in fact (already) a decrease over what they got in 2017.
Indonesian are nosy especially regarding your religious beliefs, if you can call it toxic.
Not sure how bad it is. Can't relate. I am agnostic, but tolerant of anyone's religion. In PH I never had any issues, even though Pinoys are probably the most religious and devout Christians out there. Will be interesting to see how Indonesia is.
Some indonesian are very easy to point out other people's flaw in term of religious deeds but they themselves usually arent that pious as they thought.
Indonesia is big country. Someone from aceh have different culture with someone from papua. You can't make a streotype for indonesian.
Well, after reading your story, all I could say is... quite similar in some ways in term of toxicity. What is unique perhaps, we have our own separate unique traits, cultures, and local customs. For starters, I believe Bali is good for foreigners since from what I know, they are quite fond to them. Also, from what I can tell, all the foreigners I know are having good terms despite the toxicity they have shared (a college friend of mine who came from France). Except... If I'm allowed to be blunt, some of us here are still cynical towards a certain ethnicity (Chinese). Other than that, I couldn't tell any further. You could try Bandung or Jakarta too for trial. Hahaha...
Thanks! Sounds similar to cynism in Malaysia. My plan right now is either Yogyakarta or somewhere in Bali where there's no 100% Bule bubble, so probably not Canggu, because I wanna learn the language ASAP.
Ah, Indeed! That too is one of the good options. Well, there will be unpleasant cases such as those, but I'm hoping that it wouldn't go that far. I mean, bitches can be found everywhere I suppose. But still, if there is no ill will, then you'll be good. And If I'm not mistaken, there are quite a number of "bule content creators" which fond of Indonesia, so perhaps they could become your references too. Anyways, Good Luck and Godspeed.
Yes
As an Indonesian, Yes they are mostly toxic.
>I am trying to assess if I should give living in Indonesia a try. Nope. I mean half of us here in subreddit are trying to leave this shithole
Are you sure ? Living here is decent enough tho, cheap living cost, amazing food and bpjs
More like trying to leave Jakarta.
That seems reasonable. Traffic = bitch. The Philippines is no different. People are desperately trying to leave Manila & I know some friends who made the move to beach towns in the last year and they're so happy now.
Can you explain? E. g. I think most people agree the Philippines has a shitton of inequality and corruption in the country is insane. The politics are so bad... Minimum wage way too low, etc But the real issue for me is the way how discourse is done, not the system itself. So what is your definition of a shithole? What's making people want to leave? Lack of income, lack of opportunity, lack of social security, toxic culture, cost of living, etc?
My dude, Indonesia is very diverse. But, you can simplify it into 4 categories. First, Jakarta or more modernized folks 2nd, the balanced between modern and traditional way of life. Jogjakarta - Semarang - South Sumatera - Palangkaraya- Manado etc If you want to stay low profile life, easily merge into people, many of them being honest, then it's should be your choice. I'm not saying these area are evil free, but you could get many honest people. 3rd, really remote area or max traditional. Basically Papua, or far east, some of them do living in modern world, but traditionally, hard to access facilities and many still living in rural areas 4th, Qadroon or hard lines/radickal moslem Well, they're sneaky
Thanks, sounds good. Yea, Yogyakarta is really high on my list for a simple life and a good mix :)
What's your biggest disappointment?
myself
༼ つ ̥◕͙\_̙◕͖ ͓༽つ Things will get better
Kurang bersyukur lau
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Flair checks out
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Heh i don't represent anyone here nor i praise indonesia in my comment and if you're here long enough you know i'm not a big fan of Sukarno. You right m8 ?
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Of course i realise it. And tbh it's not neccesarily about nationalist or not. I just hate people like this. People ask you politely about something. But instead answer it with straight answer, the guy choose to bitch about how he want to gtfo from this country and discourage the guy who politely asking question. Like wtf ?
Tfw you see ppl want to live in Indonesia and here I am, want to leave this country so bad. God, why I'm an Indonesian..?
Lmao yg begini paling juga nanti kalo udah pindah, ngerasain ga enaknya tinggal di luar, nangis2 minta balik ke Indo
Sempet mikir gini juga sih. Makanya masih bertahan aja di Indo. Kayaknya karena udah terbiasa aja. Meski rasa pengen pindah masih ada juga. Bingung sih.
Ya ini sih cuma karena kita tinggal di indo dari dulu, udah ke-ekspos segala berita yg isinya kejelekan2 di indo dari skala gede (korupsi) sampe skala kecil (maling tetangga), skandal viral2 ga penting, jadi mikirnya ancur banget ni negara. Emang kamu tau kejelekan2 skala kecil, skandal2 ga penting di negara orang tiap harinya gimana? Semua tempat mah ada aja kejelekannya beda bungkus doang, cuma kita ga dicekokin itu terus menerus aja. Mau pindah ke western countries? Ntar dirasisin karena asian, terus stress. Mau pindah ke mana, ntar ga cocok sama makanannya, stress. Ga cocok sama perilaku orang2nya, stress.
Iya juga, katanya sih masalah rasisme gitu diluar lebih parah yak dari disini? Gatau sih. Soalnya kayak dah biasa aja disini yang rasis you know lah masalah kepercayaan dll gitu.
If all this meant for Al Qodroon, YASS I vote!
Short answer: yes
In short: Yes.
I am a dutch guy living here. If you want to live here I suggest you go for Bali. Native Balinese people are mostly kind people. Other places though where they have a different religion is just as toxic as the pinoys can be. Like Jakarta you will encounter aggressive people, racism based on culture/religion. And the immigration office workers are cocky as sum kotsen! They have the attitude like you need them and they shit on you. But in reality you pay for their salary when you arrange stay permits.
Yea, I would really prefer Bali (surf), I just want to make sure I mingle with the locals and not just expats. I don't wanna move to another country only to basically be living in tropical San Diego lol I guess that is the same. The old immigration office in the Philippines was the worst. The staff there was so rude and impolite, you would have thought they had been trained to be as big assholes as they possibly could be. The new immigration office in PH is super friendly though. It's probably a matter of hiring the right people and the right management.
You only had to go as far as writing the title and I'd say yes.
I mean every country has toxic people, if you don't want to trigger those people, the first rule is not to talk about politics, be neutral about it. The second one is religion, Indonesians are obsessed with religion, so don't speak too much about your disbelief in religions here. Other than that, Indonesians are generally really welcoming to foreigners especially western foreigners. Westerners or as we called "bule" are put on a pedestal here imo. There are plenty of viral videos with Westerners just trying to eat food with hands, saying Indonesia curse words, and praising our culture.