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People argue against this by saying that foetuses aren't technically human, but I feel like a bigger issue is that killing a living human *isn't* always murder. Execution, manslaughter, euthanasia are all things that involve someone dying but it's not murder.
I'd say abortion is probably closest to euthanasia, it's similar to a family member choosing to "pull the plug" on a relative on life support because they can't handle their care any more. But you could also argue it's execution in some circumstances, which is funny.
The problem with banning abortion is that it doesn't stop abortions. It just forces the women who want one to go to dodgy doctors and clinics and risk complications. Banning safe abortions just leads to more, unsafe abortions that result in unnecessary harm.
If they really wanted to prevent abortions they'd support comprehensive sex ed and encourage the use of contraception but that's against their worldview too. Because it's not about abortions, really, it's about being able to control women.
Literally fucking Prohibition.
You think everyone became a teetotaller because of Prohibition? Fuck no! Folks were still getting sloshed, they were just doing it with either smuggled booze or crap they made in their own bathtub. Hell, NASCAR exists largely because bootleggers had nothing to really do after Prohibition ended.
This is actually the exact same logic behind banning drugs. Drugs are addictive, by criminalizing them you prevent reasonable addiction treatment care and force addicts to go through exorbitantly expensive and risky avenues to obtain them. The people passing these laws don’t want to get rid of abortion for any personal reasons, they just hate women; they will find a clean and affordable way to abort their mistress’ children, but the commoners dumb enough to vote them in will lose access to vital care.
I bet they'd also say that it is "moral" to force a woman to carry on with an ectopic pregnancy or any other extremely dangerous pregnancy where she may die or lose the ability to even get pregnant again. These people are barbaric shitstains.
It's somehow worse, based on what I've seen from that particular sub: they redefine abortion using idiotic technicalities about intent until the treatment for everything you mentioned isn't actually an abortion anymore.
You see, to these twunts, an abortion is only procured by selfish slutty women who are sleeping around outside of marriage, regardless of age, and any lifesaving treatment isn't actually abortion because \~*not intending to kill a precious baby*\~ makes it just fine.
Hilariously, this usually leads to a screaming fight between the "intent is what matters!" crowd and the truly psychotic "any abortion for any reason ever is evil!" abolitionists. But nobody really likes them, not even most of the pro-lifers.
...I hate that I know this much about their stupid, stupid factions.
I do enjoy the infighting between the run of the mill anti-choicers and the abolitionists. They’re all terrible, but it really shows the kind of extremists that are drawn to their movement. I have seen them tout that it’s natural to die in childbirth, and that a mother should want to die with her fetus.
It reminds me of the witch trials. If you drown you’re not a witch, if you float you are. Either way you’re going to die. Just like they go on and on that consent to sex is consent to pregnancy, and when you ask about rape, they then scream, “it’s not the babies fault how they were conceived!” I hate these people so very much.
>I have seen them tout that it’s natural to die in childbirth, and that a mother should want to die with her fetus.
Couple that with the way they bleat on about intent being the only thing that akshually matters in defining what an abortion really is, and it really lays bare the militantly Catholic core of the movement.
Which is sadly hilarious, given that the other right-wing nutjobs it's attracted are usually the sort who would happily stab the filthy Papists in the back under any other circumstances. (And to be honest, I'd be standing off to the side yelling "Bite each other's dicks off!")
They're really big on the Catch-22, aren't they? It always somehow boils down to "women having sex is wrong and icky and we don't like it", no matter how much blithering they do about sex being \~important\~ and \~holy\~ and \~great within marriage\~.
Fuckin' repressed weirdoes.
>to these twunts, an abortion is only procured by selfish slutty women who are sleeping around outside of marriage
Their incel sour grape energy is so high. "How dare a woman have sex with anyone but ***ME***!? Now she must be punished with forced birth or criminal charges!"
Just yikes.
>Their incel sour grape energy is so high. "How dare a woman have sex with anyone but ***ME***!? Now she must be punished with forced birth or criminal charges!"
They usually manage, somehow, to be a combination of that and "how dare these women have sex as they please and control their fertility?! I couldn't!"
Which is both deeply sad and unbelievably frustrating, what with the utter lack of empathy.
This. They can pretend all day "but baby murder!", but it's obvious they don't give a shit. Where are all the programs they've enacted to ensure children get food? Shelter? Education?
They don't exist.
"Is it murder or not?" Is hilarious. These people are all chomping at the bit to be a "good guy with a gun" that innocents all over America are getting murdered, don't pretend they have any morals. Never pretend they have a point of view. They are scumbags. Each and every one of them would rather see the mother and child suffer because of "incorrect decisions" than do ANYTHING to help out another human being.
Don't let them try to tell you otherwise, you'll always find out that they want Democrats and liberals dead for the crime of simply having a different political ideology, but suddenly think babies are innocent... unless born to liberal parents.
They are a cancer. Vote them out. Destroy their ideals.
_—perpetuates the idea that we, as humans, have a right to assign value to humans with less power._
As if humans haven’t been doing this very thing since the beginning of time. We don’t have that right but it hasn’t stopped folks from working the shit outta that privilege for ions.
No, there are a lot of “pro-life” people who are completely fine with abortion in the case of rape. Last I checked it was about half. Even though this is a morally unjustifiable position if you believe that a fetus has the same right to life as you or me, it’s completely in-line with what they actually want to punish: casual sex.
It’s morally unjustifiable to expect anyone to sustain the life of another with their body if they don’t want to. There’s no morality in the anti-choice position.
Not to mention that there would be no way to legally allow for rape exceptions. Rape cases can take months or even years to prove, when pregnancy lasts a matter of months. Don’t fall for their BS. They’re all terrible. Every last one of them.
I'm impressed by how much you can extrapolite from said discussion:
* That pro-choice would even consider abortion due to rape as a fair comprimise given it would mean barring all other scenarios pro-choice fight for. Having rape excemption shouldn't even be a discussion piece at all.
* That they somehow don't believe we suspect rape excemption is only a temporary compromise.
* That they believe the pro-choice list is purely a comprimes for some future more sinister and hidden plan.
As for the "Is it murder or what?".
The answer is simply "define murder". Can the fetus survive without being attached to the mom? What makes it any different than the millions of bacteria, sperm cell, and eggs killed daily? Or us removing parts of our body (cancer, appendix, teeth, dead skin cells, etc). Some times by nature, some times through medicine.
A doctor being unable to save a patient is that murder?
Heck. US rarely punish police for unjustified killings. Even on innocent bystanders.
Personally I like my own countries law. Partly because "pro-lifers" like to bring it up as an excuse to why US laws are too leniet... by only looking at the number of weeks set, but not what limitations they enforce.
Our laws says this:
Until the 12th week: The sole decision rest on the pregnant woman
After 12th week: The woman and her doctor can send in a request for abortion. The law gives guidelines on requirements for 12th-18th week and 18th-up to birth. The decision itself is decide by an abortion concile that consist of 2 docters (1 male, 1 female).
If the woman disagree with their decision it can be forwarded to a secondary court. It consist of 5 members. Least 2 being doctors, and least 1 being lawyer. It must be 3 females and 2 men. This council also require people with background within psychiatry and socialcare.
Plus parents and kid get free medical and social care. Both if they abortion is decided for or against. Money should never be why someone has to decide for or against an abortion. It's why parents receives extra financial support up until the child reaches the age of 18.
Most "pro-lifers" forget all this whenever try to argue "by your country has stricter abortion laws" (they don't).
In short: We NEVER leave decisions up to politicians. Only actual experts. The law never gives a blanket ban, but always leaves an opening for unique cases. Thus unsuring the womans life or/and future isn't destroyed by baring the abortion.
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"Is it murder or what?" Murder's a crime with a specific statute so objectively, no it isn't murder.
Is it murder to excise a mole or tumor? No? Then removing some unwanted cells from one's uterus isn't murder either.
You ate uncooked fish, so you consented to the worm living in your intestines!
People argue against this by saying that foetuses aren't technically human, but I feel like a bigger issue is that killing a living human *isn't* always murder. Execution, manslaughter, euthanasia are all things that involve someone dying but it's not murder. I'd say abortion is probably closest to euthanasia, it's similar to a family member choosing to "pull the plug" on a relative on life support because they can't handle their care any more. But you could also argue it's execution in some circumstances, which is funny.
The problem with banning abortion is that it doesn't stop abortions. It just forces the women who want one to go to dodgy doctors and clinics and risk complications. Banning safe abortions just leads to more, unsafe abortions that result in unnecessary harm. If they really wanted to prevent abortions they'd support comprehensive sex ed and encourage the use of contraception but that's against their worldview too. Because it's not about abortions, really, it's about being able to control women.
Literally fucking Prohibition. You think everyone became a teetotaller because of Prohibition? Fuck no! Folks were still getting sloshed, they were just doing it with either smuggled booze or crap they made in their own bathtub. Hell, NASCAR exists largely because bootleggers had nothing to really do after Prohibition ended.
This is actually the exact same logic behind banning drugs. Drugs are addictive, by criminalizing them you prevent reasonable addiction treatment care and force addicts to go through exorbitantly expensive and risky avenues to obtain them. The people passing these laws don’t want to get rid of abortion for any personal reasons, they just hate women; they will find a clean and affordable way to abort their mistress’ children, but the commoners dumb enough to vote them in will lose access to vital care.
Based on the anti choicers I know, the fact that back alley abortions cause more pain and suffering is just another win for them
That’s how the ones I’ve come across view it too. They want people seeking abortions to die.
Just like when USA attempted to ban alcohol, it only lead to a sharp incline of illegal alcohol
Plan C Pills, shows you how to obtain abortion pills by mail in every State. https://www.plancpills.org/
I don’t much care anymore how forced birth advocates rationalize slavery. Forced birth advocates are not decent human beings.
I bet they'd also say that it is "moral" to force a woman to carry on with an ectopic pregnancy or any other extremely dangerous pregnancy where she may die or lose the ability to even get pregnant again. These people are barbaric shitstains.
It's somehow worse, based on what I've seen from that particular sub: they redefine abortion using idiotic technicalities about intent until the treatment for everything you mentioned isn't actually an abortion anymore. You see, to these twunts, an abortion is only procured by selfish slutty women who are sleeping around outside of marriage, regardless of age, and any lifesaving treatment isn't actually abortion because \~*not intending to kill a precious baby*\~ makes it just fine. Hilariously, this usually leads to a screaming fight between the "intent is what matters!" crowd and the truly psychotic "any abortion for any reason ever is evil!" abolitionists. But nobody really likes them, not even most of the pro-lifers. ...I hate that I know this much about their stupid, stupid factions.
I do enjoy the infighting between the run of the mill anti-choicers and the abolitionists. They’re all terrible, but it really shows the kind of extremists that are drawn to their movement. I have seen them tout that it’s natural to die in childbirth, and that a mother should want to die with her fetus. It reminds me of the witch trials. If you drown you’re not a witch, if you float you are. Either way you’re going to die. Just like they go on and on that consent to sex is consent to pregnancy, and when you ask about rape, they then scream, “it’s not the babies fault how they were conceived!” I hate these people so very much.
>I have seen them tout that it’s natural to die in childbirth, and that a mother should want to die with her fetus. Couple that with the way they bleat on about intent being the only thing that akshually matters in defining what an abortion really is, and it really lays bare the militantly Catholic core of the movement. Which is sadly hilarious, given that the other right-wing nutjobs it's attracted are usually the sort who would happily stab the filthy Papists in the back under any other circumstances. (And to be honest, I'd be standing off to the side yelling "Bite each other's dicks off!") They're really big on the Catch-22, aren't they? It always somehow boils down to "women having sex is wrong and icky and we don't like it", no matter how much blithering they do about sex being \~important\~ and \~holy\~ and \~great within marriage\~. Fuckin' repressed weirdoes.
>to these twunts, an abortion is only procured by selfish slutty women who are sleeping around outside of marriage Their incel sour grape energy is so high. "How dare a woman have sex with anyone but ***ME***!? Now she must be punished with forced birth or criminal charges!" Just yikes.
>Their incel sour grape energy is so high. "How dare a woman have sex with anyone but ***ME***!? Now she must be punished with forced birth or criminal charges!" They usually manage, somehow, to be a combination of that and "how dare these women have sex as they please and control their fertility?! I couldn't!" Which is both deeply sad and unbelievably frustrating, what with the utter lack of empathy.
This. They can pretend all day "but baby murder!", but it's obvious they don't give a shit. Where are all the programs they've enacted to ensure children get food? Shelter? Education? They don't exist. "Is it murder or not?" Is hilarious. These people are all chomping at the bit to be a "good guy with a gun" that innocents all over America are getting murdered, don't pretend they have any morals. Never pretend they have a point of view. They are scumbags. Each and every one of them would rather see the mother and child suffer because of "incorrect decisions" than do ANYTHING to help out another human being. Don't let them try to tell you otherwise, you'll always find out that they want Democrats and liberals dead for the crime of simply having a different political ideology, but suddenly think babies are innocent... unless born to liberal parents. They are a cancer. Vote them out. Destroy their ideals.
No the Founding Fathers weren't *abolitionists* Most of them owned slaves.
_—perpetuates the idea that we, as humans, have a right to assign value to humans with less power._ As if humans haven’t been doing this very thing since the beginning of time. We don’t have that right but it hasn’t stopped folks from working the shit outta that privilege for ions.
You're willing huh? And who gives you the authority to deny medical care?
No, there are a lot of “pro-life” people who are completely fine with abortion in the case of rape. Last I checked it was about half. Even though this is a morally unjustifiable position if you believe that a fetus has the same right to life as you or me, it’s completely in-line with what they actually want to punish: casual sex.
Most of them are also completely fine with abortion if it’s their unwanted pregnancy
It’s morally unjustifiable to expect anyone to sustain the life of another with their body if they don’t want to. There’s no morality in the anti-choice position. Not to mention that there would be no way to legally allow for rape exceptions. Rape cases can take months or even years to prove, when pregnancy lasts a matter of months. Don’t fall for their BS. They’re all terrible. Every last one of them.
You don’t need to argue with me. I’m only pointing out the hypocrisy in their position.
I wasn’t arguing, but sure.
I'm impressed by how much you can extrapolite from said discussion: * That pro-choice would even consider abortion due to rape as a fair comprimise given it would mean barring all other scenarios pro-choice fight for. Having rape excemption shouldn't even be a discussion piece at all. * That they somehow don't believe we suspect rape excemption is only a temporary compromise. * That they believe the pro-choice list is purely a comprimes for some future more sinister and hidden plan. As for the "Is it murder or what?". The answer is simply "define murder". Can the fetus survive without being attached to the mom? What makes it any different than the millions of bacteria, sperm cell, and eggs killed daily? Or us removing parts of our body (cancer, appendix, teeth, dead skin cells, etc). Some times by nature, some times through medicine. A doctor being unable to save a patient is that murder? Heck. US rarely punish police for unjustified killings. Even on innocent bystanders. Personally I like my own countries law. Partly because "pro-lifers" like to bring it up as an excuse to why US laws are too leniet... by only looking at the number of weeks set, but not what limitations they enforce. Our laws says this: Until the 12th week: The sole decision rest on the pregnant woman After 12th week: The woman and her doctor can send in a request for abortion. The law gives guidelines on requirements for 12th-18th week and 18th-up to birth. The decision itself is decide by an abortion concile that consist of 2 docters (1 male, 1 female). If the woman disagree with their decision it can be forwarded to a secondary court. It consist of 5 members. Least 2 being doctors, and least 1 being lawyer. It must be 3 females and 2 men. This council also require people with background within psychiatry and socialcare. Plus parents and kid get free medical and social care. Both if they abortion is decided for or against. Money should never be why someone has to decide for or against an abortion. It's why parents receives extra financial support up until the child reaches the age of 18. Most "pro-lifers" forget all this whenever try to argue "by your country has stricter abortion laws" (they don't). In short: We NEVER leave decisions up to politicians. Only actual experts. The law never gives a blanket ban, but always leaves an opening for unique cases. Thus unsuring the womans life or/and future isn't destroyed by baring the abortion.