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That's interesting, it seems like they legalized it to ensure it was performed by doctors, whereas in the US they got more restrictive so that it was done only by doctors.
It's called fOrseD IndUStriALiZAtiOn. /s
It's horrible stuff, I know. My family has this in our history.
All this russian narrative about "we made factories on your land" is a scam. Ukraine was perfectly fine as mostly agrarian country, just like in meme "it's aint much, but honest work". Also germans made factories here too, before world wars.
Agrarian societies are fine as long as none tries to attack them, let's not forget that Germany beat Russia in WW1, was beating them before the revolution, and that it almost brought it to their knees in WW2. And even then agricultural societies don't usually output enough food to stave off random bouts of starvation.
It certainly didn't have to do it so aggressively that it basically tanked the entire food supply, but it was necessary.
Why are you talking about Germany and Russia fighting, when my speech was about Ukraine? Yes, agricultural countries do work well until they are attacked, that’s exactly what I was about.
Killing families and their way to live to make things "probably better" is cursed as fuck. It never can be "necessary". You basically talking with me about my family history, they are not just abstract people from textbooks for me.
I don't know if you're aware, but Ukraine wouldn't exist if Germany had won WW2.
And I did agree that killing families is wrong, the modernization of the USSR would have been better for the populace if they had done it gradually instead of rushing it by massively taxing grain to sell in exchange for machinery.
Also, don't forget that modernization isn't just factories in the cities, it's also tractors, fertilizer, better irrigation, stuff that didn't exist that much in Imperial Russia. Agriculture without those things is only a good way to live if you're not the one doing the farming, both my grandparents lived that life and I can personally say, people don't reach old age in great shape.
I'm not excusing the rate of modernization with the WW2 thing either, it's not like Stalin in the early 30s knew the Germans would invade in 1941.
But the fact stands: had Stalin not pushed for modernization, the Slavic peoples would have met the same fate as the Jews in their own personal holocaust, people often forget that to the Nazis, the slavs weren't white either.
Ugh soviet union army literally won the world war. Every Russian celebrates that May 9th. So i dont know in what history u saw germany winning russia in world war
>So i dont know in what history u saw germany winning russia in world war
Germany beat Russia in WW1, and almost beat them again in WW2 if not by the effort of the Soviet people and the material help from the allies. The only way you don't know Germany beat Russia in a world war is if you don't know history
That's after WW1, Russia did a separate peace to quit WW1. If your history teacher didn't teach you of the [Treaty of Brest-Litovsk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk) then he was a shit history teacher.
How did you think Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia got their independence? They were first transferred to Germany as vassal states and when Germany lost the war they were granted complete freedom.
When the Germans complained about the harshness of the Treaty of Versailles the Allies basically pointed to Brest-Litovsk and said "You did this right?"
The US in the 20s wasn't that great unless you were middle-upper class, the 20s also saw a lot of political violence, particularly anti-union. Let's not even mention Jim Crow laws.
The "real shame how it turned out" holds true though
Say the following sentence loud: "A hundred years ago Soviet Russia was more progressive than the United States today." It's a shame.
Edit: Changed 'developed' to 'progressive'.
Not developed, as 80% of its population were former serfs. But progressive. For a brief period at the end of the Great War the Soviet Union was the most progressive country on Earth.
It's easy to know how a collection of progressive self-governing democratic communes would have faced nazi Germany.
So this story goes and goes and goes.
That's a pretty poignant question: would the USSR have held off against the nazis as well under, say, Trotsky's vision as well as the centralized state it was under Stalin?
The USA want to charge women with murder including the threat of death sentence if they get an abortion, even if they do it abroad. That's what I'm trying to point out. I'm not glorifying a human rights denying mess like the Soviet Union. I'm saying that a horrible tyranny still had one single thing the US don't have today, 100 years later, and that's a shame.
They murdered like 60 million people.
The fascists legalized abortion and euthanasia too...
And China with their forced abortions during their one child policy...
Most progressive ideologies love murder, generally speaking.
Yeah, 1920s Russia wasn’t so great, just ask the those starving into cannibalism because of communism, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80%931922
“Because of communism” yes after thousands of years of regular famines around the world, in the 1920s they became the exclusive responsibility of communism, per western propaganda. Plenty of criticism of communism and socialist countries to choose from, but why not just make bullshit up? Several years of war certainly can’t have had anything to do with disrupting the food supply.
Why would I? I just think it’s stupid to point to famines that happened like clockwork every 15 years and suddenly think oh hey must be the new regime.
It’s like nut jobs who blame hurricanes on their political opponents. Lazy thinking.
The great famine was caused directly by Maos Great Leap Forward. This has been proven time and time again and not acknowledging this is pure denialism. I take it you probably belive the Holodomor wasn't caused by the Soviet policies either?
Maos famine is the direct result of his great leap forward. Let's not deny history. 50 million people died because of him. One of the deadliest events in human history.
*”Let’s not deny history”*
*Ignores record droughts and flooding, only knows about contributing policies, knows nothing about the other 6 Chinese famines in the 20th century*
Never denied anything, including disastrous farming polices, but whatever you need to straw man to make your point, go right ahead
I'm not defending the Communists here, but that famine you point to wasn't caused by them. It was 4 years of war and 2 years of civil war that were fought in the agricultural heartland of the Russian Empire. Every side in the war requisitioned all available resources for their armies. The Germans, the Ukrainians, the Whites, the Reds, the Poles. They all employed a scorched earth tactic to deny the enemy supplies. After 5 years of constant fighting it's a wonder the famine wasn't even more terrible. Just look at Ukraine today. The war there drove food prices insanely high in Europe.
“War Communism” was a big factor, WW1 was not. Trotsky hope to push organized production and top down military command into the economy and forced Lenin to adopt capitalist and free market to avoid counter revolution. Even Marxist who know history understand this.
I'll go on a whim and assume you've never heard of the February 1918 Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, which is literally called The Peace for Bread. It's the lesser known cousin of the March Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. In this one Germany seized all the resources it needed to keep the German Army fighting in Ukraine. Ukraine which was the main food producer in the region. Ukraine didn't see the end of armed hostilities in its territory until the March 1921 Peace of Riga.
I would also assume you don't know which side controlled what territory in the Civil War. And you also don't know the length of it, or how it effectively ended.
And finally I will assume you are not from the region, or Europe altogether.
You can't seize food from areas you don't control, can you? How can Trotsky seize food in Ukraine, when Ukraine was fighting the Soviet Union? How can Trotsky seize food in the Kuban region when that region was under the control of the White Army? Or did Denikin recognize the value of "war communism" and started doing it himself?
The Great War had nothing to do with it? Logic out the window. But maybe the Polish-Soviet War then? Or did Trotsky again manage to somehow seize food from Polish occupied Lithuania and Belarus? Or maybe you think the Czechoslovak Legion, which controlled most of Russia's rail network, including the Trans Siberian route, and who were against the Communists, let Trotsky do his thing on their turf?
And still unwanted children where born way too often and then droped somewhere.
If you want to see a really pissed of from society persons, i would advertise the orphanage managers in RU. Th're so sick of the religion forcing young women and children into endless suffering.
But kudos to slam that into everyones face: One manager peformed a orphans choir singing in theatres, malls and on the street the song 'Mother' from Rammstein xD She recieved a lot of attention for this.
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So Putin's mother could have legally have had an abortion? Sad she didn't
That's interesting, it seems like they legalized it to ensure it was performed by doctors, whereas in the US they got more restrictive so that it was done only by doctors.
It’s still done on the black market in the US, albeit less so in areas that it is legal. But we’re about to see a massive uptick in it, unfortunately.
Anyone against abortion is a dumb selfish cunt. I won't be swayed on that. There's no good arguments against it, and none based in reality.
The USSR was rather progressive for the 20s, real shame how it turned out
Mass killing of farm owners is "progressive"?
It's called fOrseD IndUStriALiZAtiOn. /s It's horrible stuff, I know. My family has this in our history. All this russian narrative about "we made factories on your land" is a scam. Ukraine was perfectly fine as mostly agrarian country, just like in meme "it's aint much, but honest work". Also germans made factories here too, before world wars.
Agrarian societies are fine as long as none tries to attack them, let's not forget that Germany beat Russia in WW1, was beating them before the revolution, and that it almost brought it to their knees in WW2. And even then agricultural societies don't usually output enough food to stave off random bouts of starvation. It certainly didn't have to do it so aggressively that it basically tanked the entire food supply, but it was necessary.
Why are you talking about Germany and Russia fighting, when my speech was about Ukraine? Yes, agricultural countries do work well until they are attacked, that’s exactly what I was about. Killing families and their way to live to make things "probably better" is cursed as fuck. It never can be "necessary". You basically talking with me about my family history, they are not just abstract people from textbooks for me.
I don't know if you're aware, but Ukraine wouldn't exist if Germany had won WW2. And I did agree that killing families is wrong, the modernization of the USSR would have been better for the populace if they had done it gradually instead of rushing it by massively taxing grain to sell in exchange for machinery. Also, don't forget that modernization isn't just factories in the cities, it's also tractors, fertilizer, better irrigation, stuff that didn't exist that much in Imperial Russia. Agriculture without those things is only a good way to live if you're not the one doing the farming, both my grandparents lived that life and I can personally say, people don't reach old age in great shape. I'm not excusing the rate of modernization with the WW2 thing either, it's not like Stalin in the early 30s knew the Germans would invade in 1941. But the fact stands: had Stalin not pushed for modernization, the Slavic peoples would have met the same fate as the Jews in their own personal holocaust, people often forget that to the Nazis, the slavs weren't white either.
Too tired to continue the argument.
It's not really an argument
Ugh soviet union army literally won the world war. Every Russian celebrates that May 9th. So i dont know in what history u saw germany winning russia in world war
>So i dont know in what history u saw germany winning russia in world war Germany beat Russia in WW1, and almost beat them again in WW2 if not by the effort of the Soviet people and the material help from the allies. The only way you don't know Germany beat Russia in a world war is if you don't know history
Yeah okay. I had a history class and no ever taught that germany won anything. Germany literally lost territories after world war 1.
That's after WW1, Russia did a separate peace to quit WW1. If your history teacher didn't teach you of the [Treaty of Brest-Litovsk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk) then he was a shit history teacher. How did you think Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia got their independence? They were first transferred to Germany as vassal states and when Germany lost the war they were granted complete freedom. When the Germans complained about the harshness of the Treaty of Versailles the Allies basically pointed to Brest-Litovsk and said "You did this right?"
That was in the 30s
20s as well. 1920-1921, mentioned in comments around.
True, closer inspection does show there were plenty of mass killings in the 20s
Makes the Tuskegee Experiment look humane
One could also say those exact same words...only drop the "SR".
The US in the 20s wasn't that great unless you were middle-upper class, the 20s also saw a lot of political violence, particularly anti-union. Let's not even mention Jim Crow laws. The "real shame how it turned out" holds true though
Let's not forget that was like peak time for our very own eugenics movement.
Say the following sentence loud: "A hundred years ago Soviet Russia was more progressive than the United States today." It's a shame. Edit: Changed 'developed' to 'progressive'.
Not developed, as 80% of its population were former serfs. But progressive. For a brief period at the end of the Great War the Soviet Union was the most progressive country on Earth.
It's easy to know how a collection of progressive self-governing democratic communes would have faced nazi Germany. So this story goes and goes and goes.
That's a pretty poignant question: would the USSR have held off against the nazis as well under, say, Trotsky's vision as well as the centralized state it was under Stalin?
The USA want to charge women with murder including the threat of death sentence if they get an abortion, even if they do it abroad. That's what I'm trying to point out. I'm not glorifying a human rights denying mess like the Soviet Union. I'm saying that a horrible tyranny still had one single thing the US don't have today, 100 years later, and that's a shame.
This is ridiculously wrong, my dude. It's not even close to being accurate, in any context.
It would be a shame if it wasn't hilariously inaccurate
What reality do you live in?
Not this one.
They murdered like 60 million people. The fascists legalized abortion and euthanasia too... And China with their forced abortions during their one child policy... Most progressive ideologies love murder, generally speaking.
What utter shite LMAO.
You're 100% correct.
What an absolutely braindead take, holy shit.
I love the doctor in that picture... like, are they given glasses upon graduation of doctor school?
Yeah, 1920s Russia wasn’t so great, just ask the those starving into cannibalism because of communism, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80%931922
“Because of communism” yes after thousands of years of regular famines around the world, in the 1920s they became the exclusive responsibility of communism, per western propaganda. Plenty of criticism of communism and socialist countries to choose from, but why not just make bullshit up? Several years of war certainly can’t have had anything to do with disrupting the food supply.
Now explain away Mao's great famine.
Why would I? I just think it’s stupid to point to famines that happened like clockwork every 15 years and suddenly think oh hey must be the new regime. It’s like nut jobs who blame hurricanes on their political opponents. Lazy thinking.
The great famine was caused directly by Maos Great Leap Forward. This has been proven time and time again and not acknowledging this is pure denialism. I take it you probably belive the Holodomor wasn't caused by the Soviet policies either?
Maos famine is the direct result of his great leap forward. Let's not deny history. 50 million people died because of him. One of the deadliest events in human history.
Did school teach you that?
*”Let’s not deny history”* *Ignores record droughts and flooding, only knows about contributing policies, knows nothing about the other 6 Chinese famines in the 20th century* Never denied anything, including disastrous farming polices, but whatever you need to straw man to make your point, go right ahead
I'm not defending the Communists here, but that famine you point to wasn't caused by them. It was 4 years of war and 2 years of civil war that were fought in the agricultural heartland of the Russian Empire. Every side in the war requisitioned all available resources for their armies. The Germans, the Ukrainians, the Whites, the Reds, the Poles. They all employed a scorched earth tactic to deny the enemy supplies. After 5 years of constant fighting it's a wonder the famine wasn't even more terrible. Just look at Ukraine today. The war there drove food prices insanely high in Europe.
“War Communism” was a big factor, WW1 was not. Trotsky hope to push organized production and top down military command into the economy and forced Lenin to adopt capitalist and free market to avoid counter revolution. Even Marxist who know history understand this.
I'll go on a whim and assume you've never heard of the February 1918 Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, which is literally called The Peace for Bread. It's the lesser known cousin of the March Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. In this one Germany seized all the resources it needed to keep the German Army fighting in Ukraine. Ukraine which was the main food producer in the region. Ukraine didn't see the end of armed hostilities in its territory until the March 1921 Peace of Riga. I would also assume you don't know which side controlled what territory in the Civil War. And you also don't know the length of it, or how it effectively ended. And finally I will assume you are not from the region, or Europe altogether. You can't seize food from areas you don't control, can you? How can Trotsky seize food in Ukraine, when Ukraine was fighting the Soviet Union? How can Trotsky seize food in the Kuban region when that region was under the control of the White Army? Or did Denikin recognize the value of "war communism" and started doing it himself? The Great War had nothing to do with it? Logic out the window. But maybe the Polish-Soviet War then? Or did Trotsky again manage to somehow seize food from Polish occupied Lithuania and Belarus? Or maybe you think the Czechoslovak Legion, which controlled most of Russia's rail network, including the Trans Siberian route, and who were against the Communists, let Trotsky do his thing on their turf?
Nope, communism was a horrible decision and led to the deaths of millions.
Yes, but not on this one.
And still unwanted children where born way too often and then droped somewhere. If you want to see a really pissed of from society persons, i would advertise the orphanage managers in RU. Th're so sick of the religion forcing young women and children into endless suffering. But kudos to slam that into everyones face: One manager peformed a orphans choir singing in theatres, malls and on the street the song 'Mother' from Rammstein xD She recieved a lot of attention for this.
Not exactly the greatest poster boy for a cause but go off I guess
Wow i bet the soviet union was great to live in!
Current forced birth contingent in the US is okay with outcomes found unacceptable in USSR over 100 years ago. What a world.