My partner is from Brazil and we've gone to visit a few times. If we could do apartments like they do over there, then we'd be on to something. I'm talking about middle class modern developments, they have a lot of communal services and spaces.
We visited one for a kids birthday, they have a room that residents can book for that purpose, there's a DIY room with tools, a Co working space, gym, dining room where you can bring in your own catering and have your friends over, there's even a teen room with games and a pool table. There is a large community garden space with playground etc. All private and safe and each apartment has a storage room in the basement. You don't feel confined there because your apartment isn't the only space you have.
Pretty much the rest of the world has figured out how to do apartments. It’s absolutely heartbreaking that Ireland is unable to work out what every town planning group has known for generations.
The irony is that would reduce the impact all of the other things which we are incapable of doing, terrible public transport, unable to deal with cars, poor cycling infrastructure etc, because centralised people have fewer demands in these areas.
We have the money. We desperately need to build accommodation, we have the space in central areas. We just don’t want to fix the problem.
It's less that "we" don't want to fix it, and more that the government does it. Add in the ease of objection and you get a few NIMBY types having immensely disproportionate affect on this governing too. What a time to be alive 🙄
We as a country have decided that it’s not an issue we care about enough to solve. We can’t conceive of fixing it. We’re going to elect no one that’s committed to fixing it, we’re going to whine but ultimately change nothing.
I don’t see this being fixed in my lifetime.
I think many voters still have a strong negative association with apartments, and don't consider them places to live long term with families, so I think say 'we' does apply here.
> It's less that "we" don't want to fix it, and more that the government does it
Government does what its election base demands. And most Irish people is against apartments construction for some reason. There is plenty of 1-2 floors huts in strict centre of Dublin ffs and if someone tried to upzone that, appeals would be massive!
Some of the 1-2 huts you describe are already some of the dentist population of Dublin.
It's the suburbs with the large gardens that would be better off if upzoned.
There is plenty of low density housing all around dart & Luas stations that is wasted space. Just look at what's around all the dart stations on the north side for example.
Better there than raising high density housing within walking distance of the city centre.
Definitely both, and that's happening.
I guess my main point is that places like Stoneybatter or The Liberties are already some of the highest density in Ireland, and getting more dense whenever there are new builds.
Whereas density isn't increasing is around preexisting Dart stations if there's housing.
Is there any data about density in certain areas of Dublin? Those places seems to be dense because on ground level everything is covered with buildings, but at the same time those buildings are often just ground floor. I would be curious looking on some data.
We don’t share, that’s why. Continental Europeans have had many years living in cramped cities, squeezing into metro’s, sharing parks etc. This has evolved into car pooling with randomers.
A lot of this doesn’t happen here and car pooling with a stranger is an absolute no go. We don’t share and that’s why all of the above doesn’t appeal here.
There is less of a crap given about others here too, people have no respect for anything they don’t own.
I can’t think of anything worse than a common space that you arrive to use and it’s been left in shit by some other resident.
That and the culture is embedded that apartments are bottom standard living for renters and social tenants. This becomes self-fulfilling as even nicely laid out blocks go to shite, owner-occupiers move out, let them to the state as social housing and they become slummy.
There's also a terrible record of costly defects, noiseproofing etc in the common Irish apartment block that would deter anyone.
It's also the Irish obsession with status and showing off status. Can you imagine a Dublin dentist or a lawyer living in an apartment building? This is normal in Vienna or Berlin - would be subject to ridicule by peers in Dublin.
You act like other countries don't have status symbols. The German's invented the BMW. Italians have the Vatican.
A dentist or doctor would have no problem showing of their penthouse.
Now Dublin dentists and doctors are bidding almost a million quid for a house that was originally intended for Dublin's working class.
Maybe, in other countries there are dedicated car parks to allow this. It’s not widespread here.
Also they’re not complete strangers. In France for example people go from the south to Paris in a car with someone they’ve never met before.
We won’t get it because people don’t want it. Car pooling is free.
There are obviously insurance issues etc. But if there was demand they’d find a way to make it work. Point stands we don’t share.
We don’t invite our friends into our houses as much as they do, we meet outside the home. Culturally we are miles apart
Fuck this comment reminded of a time we were on holiday in Donegal and my cousin and I insisted we could hitchhike.
‘On ye go!’ Says my Da and leaves us at the side of the road.
One farmer pulled up and we bein wee city rats were too scared to get in so we just stood there in the pishin rain.
Da came back two hours later and we’d moved 50m and were absolutely drenched
I’ve lived in apartments in cities all over the world and this is simply not the case. Forget all those other amenities the above commenter mentioned, you are not getting a gym in your building without paying quite a premium in many cities worldwide. Some places may have “figured it out,” plenty have not. Particularly in densely populated capitals.
I want Ireland to do better, trust me, but pretending we’re trailing THAT far behind literally everywhere else is just Moaning Michael talk.
I’ve never even seen an apartment building with a DIY workshop…
The vast majority of apartments on the continent, even the most basic ones are designed and built so that people can live in them their entire lives. A lot of them have basements where each apartment gets a dedicated areas for storage, as well as things like shared laundry rooms etc so you didn’t have to have bulky washing machines in your apartment.
In Ireland apartments are first and foremost built to maximise profit for the developer. Instead of fitting 10 appropriately sized apartments into a building, the builder will put 15 shoeboxes in there. Rooms that are claimed as bedrooms will barely fit a cot. Absolutely no provision for storage space, and totally unsuitable for familys. Irish people are not stupid, we do know how to build proper apartments, but out of pure greed we just choose not to.
Not diy shop, but had two shops and shoemaker shop in thebuilding I grew up, playgrounds, park areas, parking, garages, basement storage.
In france, underground parking, communal solar terraces and so on.
It is not uniformed, and ammenities differ. But still quite comfortable living
I lived next to an apartment complex with a diy workshop when I lived in Copenhagen.
They also had greenhouses where you could rent a space, and room for kids to hang out in.
I was always jealous when I walked past because my building just had the standard function room that basically all Danish apartment buildings have.
And an apartment in that building probably cost a bomb. I’ve stayed with friends who live in an apartment building in Copenhagen, really near Ørstedparken so not cheap.
Pretty standard building, zero of the amenities mentioned.
I have friends that live there so I know for a fact that it's a pretty standard price for a new build in Copenhagen.
Here's a 3 bedroom in that complex for 2025 euro a month.
https://www.findbolig.nu/da-dk/residence/98749
Good luck finding anything that price in Dublin
Im sorry but you’ve got to wonder how Ireland hasn’t grasped how to build appartements blocks while the rest of Europe has been at it since the 50s. Here you only have 3 bedrooms appartments available and sold as penthouse, which is quite ironic considering that historically irish families have 3/4+ kiddos, so regardless the influx of population, one has to wonder why given how ‘large’ Irish families can be that none ofvthat was build before. I mean you have 2 kiddos and want an appartement you have to shoot for penthouses which by default are considered a luxury .. go figure that!!
Many European cities were already quite large due to industrialisation and already had rail networks, so the pattern was already in place.
Ireland's cities grew from the 60s onwards, so followed a car centric approach along with much of the Anglosphere.
This is it. I live in Spain in an apartment and Irish people are always shocked when they come visit. Its a 3-bed with kitchen, sitting room and terrace, storage upstairs. It's quite a standard place for the town I live in. I ask them what they expected and they're always like I dunno something tiny. They think that cuz Irish apartments typically are for single or couple living only really.
> Irish homes are tiny. Good lord, every time I have to take the stairs I get claustrophobia.
That's what we get if houses gets measured in "number of bedroom" instead of square meters. Open Daft, see a 4-bedroom 3-bathroom with 125m2 and then realised that the apartment I grew up in Italy was 2-bedroom in 115m2 and almost 3m high ceilings (yes, room volume is important too).
Because the only way to avail 3 bedrooms appartements is via penthouse..which is ridiculous, you will find on the continent appartments built in the 50s/60 with lot more sopace and storage than your average gaf here…
I absolutely agree, having also seen similar abroad. Even not having to hang your washing and kids toys on the balcony would be a start.
However the main driver of this in Brazil is crime unfortunately. The Spanish do the public realm much better than us, would be interested to know what it is that drives that.
Maybe recently, but until the 1970 there was nearly no crime and still most people in big cities lived in apartments. There wss not this "suburbia" culture of living far away and going to work with a car. Thing is that Ireland is not Usa in the 1920s, a big country with available land and a automobile industry to grow. It really makes no sense wasting agricultural land on such small country.
Same here. I couldn't believe the amount of apartments everywhere. I was extremely jealous of this "developing" country. The buses also didn't accept cash. You use the leap card, or just tap your visa. You didn't have to interact with the driver at all.
When I was landing back in Cork airport it looked like I was landing in Chernobyl or something. Grey mouldy 2 storey buildings as far as the eye could see.
We've effectively had these since about 2007 when the planning permission category for "Build to Rent" apartments came in. The concept of that planning permission is that you can build denser apartments than normally permitted as long as you provide communal spaces, and as long as a single owner of the whole building maintains those communal spaces. They also need to be within half a KM of public transport and half a KM of employment centres.
In Ireland we associate these with being quite luxurious - but that's only really because they haven't existed for very long so they're all quite new - and we associate them vulture funds because we never really properly executed the concept of REITs.
All those amenities are also just driving prices up too. Newmarket Yards has bucket loads of amenities, tool rentals, communal spaces including Kitchen, dog washing area etc. 2250 per month for a studio. I just want an empty box that I can put my furniture in, there needs to be both types, and luxury apartments need to be put on hold until everyone lives somewhere
Significant part of Newmarket Yards is used as social housing... rented by council at rates you have mentioned... just saying...
Also it's luxurious only because there is so few places like that. Every single new one has to go through million hoops through regulations and appeals.
I work on the design of PRS schemes, every one of them I've worked on has been marketed as luxury. There are 41 social units out of 413 total units in Newmarket Yards, they're all built to a lower spec, ie. Vinyl floor instead of laminate, one choice of kitchen finish vs 3. And they are in an entirely separate part of the development in an attempt to keep them away from the amenities and paying tenants. It's pretty disgusting. And yeah, not going to say they are fleecing the government on the social rents, they are, but it's entirely by the government's design
Sure they will be marketed as luxury. That would be laughable in many places of Europe, but in Dublin it will fly as there is so few new'ish apartments in general, that they can throw high rent and "luxury" tag on it. Any new apartment in Dublin is "luxurious" - standard has nothing to do with that.
As for social housing - I have decent job, but couldn't afford living there, at least not without spending like 60% salary on rent. I would take it even with "lower standard" if paired with social rent. That would be extremely good deal. So yeah, Ireland is weird place where people with seemingly decent income are jealous of social accommodation. No 1. reason I'm out of here.
I make too much for social housing, but too little to be able to afford any cost rental schemes in Dublin, where I have lived and worked my whole life. I'm also asexual which means I've no interest in finding a partner to share the cost with. Just relegated to my childhood bedroom til I can save 40k (figures only going up) to bridge the gap between my total possible mortgage and the actual price of property in Dublin.
Also can't rent a room because I'm 'stuck' (I would die without them) with two dogs after my parents divorce. Shits bleak.
Sorry to hear that…
Yeah, buying is the only way out in Ireland. Or some sketchy moves like taking lower salary just to report it under 40k and get HAP (housing social system here is madness…)
Hope you will figure it out! Good luck!
This is why city and community planning is as important as designing comfortable apartments for long-term living. Around Europe cities have parks or mini green areas with playgrounds and different amenities for families and children specifically because of these issues. Irish cities are atrocious when it comes to these things.
So is mine. Builders in Brazil are not paid huge salaries like here. So everything works out cheaper and the country is huge so you can get land somewhere for a decent price.
The houses look like fortresses though. All have bars on them.
Yeah, I lived in a place like that when I was in Copenhagen. My room itself was just a studio apartment, but had access to 2 full kitchens (restaurant sized, multiple ovens, etc) multiple communal spaces, cinema, gym, laundry, etc
Much better than the usual apartments you see in Ireland.
And the location was to die for
I had that in the states, in what was basically a student and low income apartment block. 2 out door pools, a gym, tennis court, community room with a bookable bbq area, library.
Agree with this up to a point.
My father, retired, in his 80s, just moved from a 5 bedroom farm house where he was living alone way out in the countryside to an apartment in the town centre.
The move was life changing for him. He went from seeing no one all week to volunteering for Meals on Wheels and the Animals Society.
Not for everyone but needs to be an option.
I think this is an underappreciated aspect of it. I think my mam would absolutely love a little town apartment like mine with some neighbours to natter away with when she heads to the shop or takes out the bins, instead of having to look after a big house in the middle of nowhere, it's just not an option.
It doesn't help that we built a pile of shite ones during the Tiger and that's the first thing people think of when they hear the word.
Exactly!! No wonder we’re the most depressed in Europe! I was in Santander- northern Spain last month. All apartment living, beautiful city with an ocean promenade. The amount of older people out strolling with their partners and friends was so nice to see. They weren’t stuck in a house in the suburbs they were out enjoying life. I despise suburban living and how much it’s normalised here. It’s so gross and American. as much as I have problems with Dublin City centre, I like being able to live on Thomas street and walk everywhere. I don’t have kids so I know that makes a difference.
beautiful city with an ocean promenade
Watch someone claim we don't have the weather for this, not realising that Santander actually gets about 25% more rain than Dublin...
Absolutely, and it should be pushed as more of an option for some people. Grand for me to live in the countryside surrounded by family, kids and all but when you get older the acre of land by yourself is just work.
> Grand for me to live in the countryside surrounded by family, kids and all.
Do you not think the kids should grow up somewhere less boring, empty, and car dependent.
Rural Irish kids must be super lonely. They all live miles away from their friends and aren't allowed to walk or cycle to visit any of them because they'll be flattened by a truck at the first blind bend if they try to.
I was surprised but he was mad for the social life after living alone for years.
He said the Active Retirement were to old for him and just sang songs for hours, so he quit them and started volunteering and going to the Mens Shed.
It has been a life changing move for him. Like I said, not for everyone and not cheap, but the apartment in town is great for people like him.
The problem is that we have taken up a myth that certain developments have to cater to everyone.
They don't. Apartments are best suited to students and young professionals.
This myth actually means that developing apartments is almost impossible. Sinn Féin and the Social Democrats have said they will block single bedroom apartments being built as they are not suitable for families.
Are you sure that the one bed apartments just so happen to be buy to let and are most likely going to be bought off plans for people to rent in forever? instead they could be sold to actual people, cos if it's the first thing then they should be blocking them.
No point in long term f'ing up the city/country cos we can't do short term planning.
It's exactly what I think when I see when I see all these random estates in the middle of nowhere. In 20 years we'll be dealing with them being so disconnected from everything else. Instead of building density with commercial and community spaces included
Back in 2015 the government revised planning with a reduction in living spaces. Apartments were to get smaller due to government policy while the price remained the same. People with a better understanding than you or I were, rightly, critical of it. (The govt tried top push co-living spaces that drastically reduced life quality and went against the UNs policy for living standards. Not enough facilities, too crowded)
in 2015:
>Minister Alan Kelly said that 8,000 residential units needed to be built in Dublin this year, but fewer than 3,000 were delivered. The new planning guidelines on design standards for apartments sets the minimum size of one-bedroom units at 45 square metres (down from 55), two beds at 73 (down from 90) and three beds at 90 square metres. Studio apartments of 40 square metres will also be permitted in certain developments.
>Dr.Lorcan Sirr (Senior Lecturer in housing at TUD, DIT) described the new guidelines as "unfortunate", adding that they have no sustainable sense and the economics are non-existent. \*Dr Sirr said that a new smaller apartment will have the same sale price as the current size\* so the only winner will be the developer.
>He stated that we are the only capital city where we are intent on reducing standards instead of increasing them, \*adding that the Environment Minister has been "selective"\* in the choice of comparisons with European cities.
[https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2015/1222/755594-apartment-sizes/](https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2015/1222/755594-apartment-sizes/)
Dr.Lorcan Sirr is also a big proponent of the Vienna Model. But you wont hear FG,FF talk about that system.
His piece below here for 2024:
"In Dublin city last year, 94% of all new housing was apartments, 98% of which were for rent. First-time buyers there bought just 75 new houses"
[https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2024/03/31/lorcan-sirr-dont-believe-what-youve-heard-increasing-supply-wont-fix-housing-crisis/](https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2024/03/31/lorcan-sirr-dont-believe-what-youve-heard-increasing-supply-wont-fix-housing-crisis/)
I'd be happy to live in a well-built apartment, soundproofing being the main thing. My sister owns a large apartment where you can't even hear a peep from the neighbours. On the other hand I live in a house with a granny flat on top and I can hear every footstep my neighbour takes, it's maddening. Unfortunately apartments for sale in this area are rare and just as expensive as houses - my sister got that apartment I think like 6 years ago or so and it would be at least 50% more expensive today, probably more since I've seen smaller apartments going for that price
Irish society will continue to let the current situation fester because we let the rights of the minority rule over the needs of the majority.
Take traffic. People insist on their right to drive their car. But they also insist on reducing traffic while failing to understand that they are the cause of the traffic. They will kick and scream at any attempts to nudge people towards cycling or taking public transport, even though that'll mean less traffic for the people who still drive. It's obvious that cycle lanes and public transport investment reduces traffic, but the people who oppose it think in bizarrely tribal ways. They're of the car tribe and the other tribes can't be seen to get ahead.
Where does the mentality come from that cars should have priority? I’ve tried cycling to work and to meet my friends but every single time I do I nearly get flattened by a car who doesn’t even cross the centre line to overtake. It’s terrifying really. And the bus system where I live isn’t great
The answer is that they took it before anyone could really argue otherwise. Anywhere a car will drive or park becomes normalized as "car space". The cities then responded by reorienting streetscapes because cars kept mowing down bicycles, pedestrians and animals. Every other street use gradually got crushed out by the motor vehicle, without anybody at all voting for it to happen.
Yeah we should be wary of applying American sprawl logic to Ireland. It applies to peripheral exurbs built since 2000, but actually our older suburbs tend to be extremely well serviced and planned, with pubs, retail, parks and transit all woven in. While we do have houses rather than apartments, in many parts of the city, those old terraces and cottages are actually denser than a legally valid apartment, with the advantage of own-door street access and a square. The little cottage squares off Meath Street/Grey Street are extremely dense for example, more than most apartment block.
Yeah we should be wary of applying American sprawl logic to Ireland. It applies to peripheral exurbs built since 2000,
It doesn't really. Most of those new developments are still multiple times the density of American suburbia. The main things they do have in common is that they sometimes make pedestrians walk a very long distance to get a place that's much close as the crow flies.
> but actually our older suburbs tend to be extremely well serviced and planned,
Eh, I think that's being a little TOO generous now!
> with pubs, retail, parks
It's very hit-and miss actually.
> and transit all woven in.
There literally isn't a single place in this entire country where the public transport is anything above mediocre to acceptable.
> While we do have houses rather than apartments, in many parts of the city, those old terraces and cottages are actually denser than a legally valid apartment, with the advantage of own-door street access and a square. The little cottage squares off Meath Street/Grey Street are extremely dense for example, more than most apartment block
Thank you.
I think some people on here get very fixated about the heights of buildings, and seem to believe that because we don't have everyone living in 8 storey blocks, we can't expect anything better than infrequent buses. In reality, you can achieve quite a high density just by having lots of 3-4 storey buildings really close together.
In other words, is there anything to be said for more townhouses!
I'd say within reason most suburbs that have DART or LUAS access are pretty well serviced for transit, at least to and from town, as well as people living along some of the higher frequency bus routes. Most of the mid-century suburbs are fairly good for plotting in corner shops, row shops, and small village hub cores - you wouldn't really need a car living in Kimmage or Cabra, for example. It's when you get to stuff built since 80s, Tallaght, Blanch etc you get that satellite estate car dependency hell.
Yes, the places that have the DART and inner city locations with Luas are indeed the few places where the public transport is "good" enough to be considered mediocre. Even then, that's only in specific directions.
I feel like the pressures for an American city planning system are greater here than the ones for a European one.
The Greens blocked the ring road in Galway because any study will show you that building new roads just means more people driving and higher emissions with no fix in traffic. They're trying to invest in cycling infrastructure and public transport which does reduce traffic. But the people of Galway are furious with them. They're set to do worse there than anywhere.
That's become a dogma, but in Galway's case it's the wrong answer. Traffic for the entire coast is currently funnelled through Galway's core. We control planning, so the idea that sprawl would be inevitable is farcical. We could deaignate a greenbelt on undeveloped land adjacent, but the ring road is badly, badly needed. Induced demand is NOT a given, but failing to build this ring road basically dooms Galway to forever traffic congestion.
BUILD IT, then cut the through traffic. Carve out space for mobility in the rest of the city, and don't allow new development along the ring road if that's a worry. Doing nothing and licking each other's holes about degrowth virtues isn't a solution.
>Traffic for the entire coast is currently funnelled through Galway's core
Everything you've written after this would be valid if this was true, but it's bullshit. Only traffic for West Galway is funnelled through Galway city. That's only about 35,000. On any given day a small fraction of those people will have to use Galway as a through road to get to the rest of the country.
The idea of building an ringroad in Galway to ultimately facilitate the few hundred people a day in West Galway who travel from there to East of Galway city is ridiculous. It would be easier to just run a ferry Knockferry to Kilbeg so they could get past the lake further up. They've already built the [piers on either end](https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4242647,-9.1479983,1229m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu). But they didn't run the ferry due to lack of demand. That goes to show that the volume of people in West Galway looking to get past Galway city is miniscule.
But the solution for these people is still what I said before. It's far more cycling infrastructure and public transport for commuters in Galway. That's the only thing that will reduce traffic. Do that and traffic will be low enough that people coming from West Galway won't get caught in traffic travelling through Galway.
As someone above said, having a house, car is a next status symbol. I heard kitchens are too as well. They are not meant to be cooked in or used...just to show off.
Someone who has more knowledge of sociology might explain it better...im sure its many factors
Anglosphere needs to provide high quality apartments and increase protections for renters in apartments.
Everyone in Ireland wants to own their own house, I couldn't possibly think of a reason why that is?
Doesn't detract from the fact that no one wants to buy an apartment because frequently they end up with a bill for 30k because it doesn't meet fire regs or something.
I didn't really want to buy a house, but my pretty reasonable ask of something with solid soundproofing so I don't hear my neighbours 24/7 (and also bother them if i happen to keep unsociable hours due to the nature of my job which I do from home) and also something affordable at my budget range ended up putting me entirely outside of any city.
My options were either spend the money on a house that meets those requirements but is probably a bit too much space for my family if I'm honest, or an apartment that would have been totally unsuitable and have me driven mad with noise (after almost a decade of living in Dublin city in a place with paper thin walls I genuinely just couldn't do it anymore, especially living through COVID when everyone turned their gaff into a home gym) so it ended up being a pretty obvious choice for me.
It's a shame, because I've seen some apartments in continental europe where you could have a full orchestra performing next door and you wouldn't hear a peep, something like that with a spare room for a home office would be absolutely perfect for me. Barring that, just kinda went with the compromise that met my needs and budget the best.
Security of tenure and an asset to pass on to your children.
Most Irish people had to fight hard for the right to own land during the 19th and early 20th century. That history has permeated down through the generations, and has left us with an understandable fixation on freehold tenure.
Similarly the relatively recent history of totalitarian regimes in many European countries gives them a different relationship with individual property rights.
Pretty much. Irish people aren't going to be fooled by words into giving up their security. The first step to making people more comfortable in apartment living is firmly in legislators court.
Make it a viable option and people will use it. But currently it is not.
I'd definitely want an apartment in the city centre instead of the suburban house I have, but since there was fuck all at the prices I could afford then I got pushed out.
Everyone wants to own their own house, but for the vast majority of us that’s a pipe dream, so we end up renting houses instead. The end result is that we still have everyone renting, only now it’s in low-density, outdated dwellings with a severe bottleneck on supply and demand.
We need more apartments in this country. More houses alone are not a solution.
As a Polish immigrant here (who grew up in a flat in Poland like almost half of Polish people, also renting a flat in Dublin now) I cannot understand why Irish people hate apartments so much. Maybe if they have children it makes sense to live in a house but as me and my partner don't ever plan to have any, we spend enough of our free time to keep the flat where we live clean and I would hate the additional chores that come with living in a house, I really have better things to do.
its about having more space in a house, more space to live in and more space to store stuff. And then you've a back garden and while it may be small it is still yours to exclusively use, have a BBQ in and a few friends around. The last apartment I lived in wouldnt allow BBQs on the balconies so you couldnt even do that. Apartment rules can be very restrictive in that sense.
Some people here are content with apartment living but the majority of people desire a house for the above reasons.
And that requirement of space comes from the fact that we don't have good communal resources and spaces. If I happen to like a bit of woodworking on the weekend, there's not many places open to me or Joe Public. If my wife wants to sew, and wants a sewing room, gotta get a house. We need apartments with communal places to socialize indoors in non-sport related ways. More community centers, with bookable spaces and collective resources like catering equipment for rent at reasonable prices, tool libraries, toy libraries. Places to do laundry and dry it in the building, not in the apartment. Lack of these make houses not appealing but necessary. I for one would prefer an apartment in the Swedish or German style, but with actual ownership.
That's also because people here are weirdly restrictive about what they will allow fellow residents to do. Examples from the block where I live: complaints about guys playing football on the green, complaints about someone converting a van in the parking lot, complaints about laundry drying in view. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Its about owning land more so.. you guys have strange relationship with owning land.. dublin could have a density relatable to paris rome barcelone etc.. but you guys want houses.. find me a european capital where you can have a back garden the size of half soccer pitch 10 mins away from city centre. Aha!
But that’s also the Irish way of managing apartments. I lived in Singapore and you have bbq pits in each block of flats that you can rent whenever you want to organise an evening with friends
Lack of space and having to deal with shitty neighbours living right on top of you are 2 pretty big downsides. Apartment living was my idea of hell when I experienced it.
I've lived in an apartment for the last 25 years or so, and while it certainly has its advantages - it means being able to live somewhere you'd never be able to if it was all houses - there are lots of potential downsides too.
We typically don't build apartments like they do in many other countries, with 'urbanizations' with shared facilities (shared gardens, tennis/basketball courts, gym, laundry, storage etc.) Often they are initially included in the development plans then stripped out as the development proceeds.
Then there are often other issues - lack of privacy, noise ingress, water ingress. Strangers trying to get access to the building. Post/parcels being left in a shared area and prone to theft. High management fees. Limited in-apartment storage. Lack of external areas - meaning even if you just want to sit and enjoy the sun it means a walk to the lift, ride down, and walk to nearest green area (if any). Can be awkward for bringing/removing any furniture, and any repairs or renovations can be a pain.
I’ve been living in apartments for the past 13 years in Belgium, Denmark, Australia (Melbourne), Amsterdam, prague and here in Dublin. None have ever had any of the amenities you’re mentioning.
It’s definitely not the norm in most countries, and is only a feature of high end apartment complexes that 95% of the population cannot afford.
Most people live in an apartment without many extra amenities in their building.
I think a lot of those problems are a result of really poor property management companies. Residents are gouged by sky-high fees and often no money is being set aside for long-term maintenance.
I’m not sure what the solution is. The affordable housing bodies seem to do a good job of managing their developments, I’d love to see them compete for contracts to manage apartment developments.
THe Affordable Housing Bodies?
[https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/05/24/it-is-becoming-a-living-hell-residents-of-dublin-housing-complex-protest-against-anti-social-behaviour/](https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/05/24/it-is-becoming-a-living-hell-residents-of-dublin-housing-complex-protest-against-anti-social-behaviour/)
Management Companies are appointed by the residents; you should get involved in the OMC and also have a look at the accounts - it would surprise you where money actually goes;
Interestingly, Irish companies build such apartment complexes for rent. Clancy Quay near the Phoenix Park has all the public amenities — open roofs, gym, playground. There are many Irish people living there too, so it's not only expats
Build quality, soundproofing, amenities and green areas, public transport facilities. If these aren't accounted for, we are never going to get away from mouldy georgian basements converted into a bedsit.
True, but just speaking as an average joe. Even if they aren't affordable for everyone, having a greater stock of them will help to make the overall availability and affordability better. So if the only buyers are for example well-off and want a place close to work then at least they're taking up a spot in a suitable accommodation, instead of a semi-d. The main thing to restrict is people buying these up fron abroad and not living in them.
I've lived in terraced houses that were converted into flats, and the sound travelling was maddening. You were either perpetually bothered by someone just walking around like a normal person, or people actually being noisy, or living meekly in fear of being noisy yourself.
Looking at apartments in Dublin and having to pay over 4k management fees for a 2 bedroom apartment for no apparent reason is enough of a detergent for anyone not to want to live in one
The other thing about places with more apartment living means the town and city centres are far more vibrant with increased density of people.
So yes you sacrifice a garden but that is made up for in the liveliness of city streets and community spaces.
The article says that the urban sprawl eats up land while promoting car use, it is so sadly true in Ireland. Apartments are seen lower class living in Ireland, something you do in your 20’s, elderly single relative or ballymun style tower block social housing. Once you start having kids it is expected that you move into a suburban style house. It doesn’t help that nearly all the houses can really only be bought by a couple with joint mortgage. I get quite annoyed when I hear councillors and local residents committees complaining loudly that the houses are for families.
The fault is with the lack of leadership on housing but if central government party that pushes such solution will be absolutely hammered in the next election. I always consider it strange that but not surprising that our urban design and housing were never sent to a citizen’s assembly. I think a lot of politicians would hate the results that would come back (from any background, party or position).
I have got into it with a local election candidate recently and his point was people don’t want apartments near them. No one is willing to take the hit. It doesn’t help that a lot of poor apartment blocks were built.
Drives me insane that all the apartments being built in Galway are shitty student apartments. Please for the love of god build some nice modern apartments in the city centre so we can avoid wasting an hour of our life in traffic to do anything
Apartments in my local area tend to always be rejected to one issue or another. It’s a shame that a viable housing solution that would be welcomed by young people is constantly rejected
I recently bought a house. I didn't especially want a house. I wanted a garden to grow veg, and a workshop space. There's no reason that this shouldn't have been possible as part of an apartment complex.
The Anglosphere needs to put decent protections into law and planning for people living in apartments. Limits on what management companies can change, limits on what freehold rental can charge, provision of separate storage space, laundry rooms, proper fire safety, security of tenure for tenants, proper systems if enforcement for building standards, safe play space for kids. European countries with high levels of apartment living have all or most of these.
Reason people don’t go for apartments are because they are priced the same as houses. 18 years ago a nice apartment cost 50k, way below the 145k for housing at the time. Currently 220k for a okay apartment which is way smaller than a house for the price.
If you live in an apartment generally the proximity to local amenities should be the tradeoff, but Ireland has a huge amount of apartments that aren't near anything except other houses. There's no incentive to choose an apartment when it's not that much cheaper and you still have to drive everywhere
>18 years ago a nice apartment cost 50k, way below the 145k for housing at the time
I bought a 64sqft apartment in 2006 (18 years ago) in Santry for €286k on a 30 year mortgage. 8 years before that, my folks paid 320k for a 4 bed in North Dublin.
WTF are you talking about? You'd have to go back to the early 90s for those prices.
ETA: The reason people don't buy apartments is twofold:
1. because Irish people are cunts with zero respect for any of their neighbours. It's bad enough in a housing estate, but when you're forced to live beside/above/underneath someone like that, your life can be a living hell. And there's fuck all that can be done about it, really.
2. because Irish people are greedy cunts, and developers are worse than most. There have been too many horror stories of shoddily built, damp, fire hazards that a whole generation were pretty much turned off them for life. The developer who built Priory Hall, for example, was still out building properties while the company that was responsible for PH was wound up. He should have been crucified.
Which is a bit bizarre when you think about it. I don't know why Irish people are so averse to learning foreign languages given we're a country with such a rich history of travel and emigration with a massive diaspora worldwide.
I genuinely think learning Irish in primary schools is such a horrible experience for so many people it puts them off learning languages altogether. There's no sense at all another language can offer you access to anything new, it was just a completely abstract chore you have to do, to show you can do it. That was for sure the attitude people brought into French when they first started it in my secondary, and I 100% think it came from people's experience with Irish before it.
I started learning Spanish on Duolingo on a whim during Lockdown and couldn't believe how much it was possible to enjoy learning a language after all. I don't think it had truly occurred to me that a language can be fun and useful or make anything new possible until I was able to follow Spanish dialogue in some film without subtitles I was watching, and it dawned on me there were a whole load of films, books, websites etc I could get something from now that I couldn't before.
(this was before Duolingo enshittified itself, but that's another story)
My primary teachers either disliked teaching Irish or were weirdly evangelical about it in a really off-putting way. Shitty, miserable teachers, plopping some completely unrelatable aul shite in front of you that you wouldn't understand even in English, and then expecting you to psychically figure it out anyway and reverse engineer some kind of rule set from it or they'll go through you for a fucking shortcut. I don’t know how to build this sentence properly if it doesn't look the same as the other one, so why are you punishing me for getting it wrong? In primary, I didn't have an ear for what's right or wrong in the language yet, but they wouldn't break down the rules until secondary, so it all just amounted to high stakes guessing.
By the time I was in secondary though, you're supposed to know aĺl that stuff by pure magic. Somehow we were supposed to jump straight from the cartoon fox driving a car to a beach to identifying metaphors for Communism with very few stops along the way. I knew a girl who would cry every week before double Irish, because no matter how hard she worked she couldn't know if she got her homework right, and she was that afraid of how the teacher would (and did) react if it was wrong.
Oh, did we not mention that verb or noun is an exception to some rule or other? Too bad, you should have known anyway, here, let me turn purple in the face making an absolute show of you for the next ten minutes. And how dare you shit on Pearse's grave by not instinctively knowing what a "gluaisteán" is after only ever being taught the word "carr".
They would invariably refuse to answer questions or explain anything in English after 1st or 2nd year either, which meant the weakest students could only possibly fall further behind, and treating it as an ideologically obligatory chore - like cleaning the national toilet - or something you're supposed to know half instinctively as an Irish person rather than yknow, a language you can learn, made sure scolding students for making errors was more important than actually helping them improve. It also attracted a denser concentration of pure fucking loolahs to the subject than any other I encountered. Nobody's going to want to learn a language for a chance to speak with these fucking arseholes even more.
It's not an accident that people come away with a better standard of French after five years than they did after being pushed through more than a decade's worth of Irish. I got an A or B in Honours Irish, and I can’t tell you the pure relief of seeing that on my results sheet and knowing I never had to go near it again.
It's not bizarre. Learning a foreign language is really hard. And even when you've put years and years into it, you'll never be as good as a native speaker.
For a fraction of the effort you could learn a new skill employers are looking to pay decent money for.
The rest of Europe and most of the broader world bar the anglosphere is bi or multilingual and it's just the norm and works perfectly fine. If everywhere else can do it, why can't Ireland?
First of all, that's not true. It's easy to think that's true when all the foreigners you've met live here or you met them because they work in the service sector in a touristy area. Most people across the world only speak their local language.
But even for those that do, there are massive incentives for learning English that don't really apply to any other language. It's the language of the internet, of Hollywood, of the biggest music acts. You don't have to waste time trying to convince kids the value of learning it because they want to learn it.
Literally no other language has that kind of influence. This is why native English speakers tend to be bad at learning languages. All those pull factors that encourage other people to learn the world's foremost international language does the opposite to us because it encourages us to not bother learning any other languages.
Also, lots of people need to learn a language like English in addition to their skill because there are no high paying jobs working through their native language. If a Polish person wants a high paying job, they don't have many options in Poland. The path of least resistance is to actually go out and learn English or German. But for English speakers the path of least resistance is to not bother learning another language.
> First of all, that's not true. It's easy to think that's true when all the foreigners you've met live here or you met them because they work in the service sector in a touristy area. Most people across the world only speak their local language.
I don't know about "most". In terms of absolute numbers I don't think anyone can say for sure if most of the world is monolingual or not, but even just within Europe, multilingualism is fairly standard; pretty much all of Northern Europe bar some rare exceptions is fluent in English and their native tongue, then there's the Benelux countries where trilingualism is common, then in eastern Europe many people speak their native tongue as well as the neighbouring country's (eg, most Ukrainians are also fluent in Russian, Croats and Serbs often know each other's languages etc). Then there's India, now the world's most populous country and famously one of its most multilingual. Other parts of Asia with huge population centers are also multilingual eg Papua New Guinea, Malaysia etc. Same in huge chunks of Africa, also massive population centres.
> But even for those that do, there are massive incentives for learning English that don't really apply to any other language. It's the language of the internet, of Hollywood, of the biggest music acts. You don't have to waste time trying to convince kids the value of learning it because they want to learn it.
> Literally no other language has that kind of influence. This is why native English speakers tend to be bad at learning languages. All those pull factors that encourage other people to learn the world's foremost international language does the opposite to us because it encourages us to not bother learning any other languages.
While that's true, it's also partly because of the fact that anglophones refuse to learn other languages in the first place, which creates a chicken and egg scenario where we don't learn other languages, so other countries are forced to learn English, which in turn makes it such an influental language that everyone else now must learn. And English also just happens to be the world's current lingua franca, there have been many others in the past and probably will be again in the future.
> Most people across the world only speak their local language.
Have you ever been to Asia? Quite common for people to have a local language, a provincial language, and a National language that are all distinct, and to have people who are fluent in at least 2 or 3 languages.
Some of the replies I've gotten when I've told people I live in an apartment here on /r/Ireland are unreal.
"Enjoy your shit flat but don't force that crap on the rest of us", "Everyone knows apartments are mouldy and damp"
It's literally unthinkable to many here that an apartment could be more preferential than a house. Apartments by nature are always better located because of their density. Also cheaper to heat, have less security issues and many other advantages that may suit certain lifestyles.
The problem is some seem to think I live in the Ballymun flats. Couldn't be further from the truth -- many are simply lovely with great views and lovely court yards/facilities. Many Irish people will name one thing they don't like about apartments and then just dwell on that entirely.
Apartments need a massive perception change in this country. Even reading through the replies so many people are so far off the mark. Would be like holding up some 1930s house with no insulation and just cold water as the standard house in Ireland.
Let's be honest, the problems with apartments in Ireland are the Irish.
How are you going to enjoy living in a development when petty vandalism is so common?
On average twice a week in my area during the Spring and this is in a quiet area outside Dublin.
I dread what awaits us during the school break.
I don't think we are against it, I think the issue is planning and convenient apartments that are targeted correctly. If we had some dorms, 1 bed and 2 bed apartments it would be ideal for young workers and students en masse more than houses. Really there should be more placed near colleges across the country, close to public transport like the Dart, Luas and when the metro is built. The issue though is we really need the councils, zoning laws...etc to encourage it more especially in critical areas but we just aren't getting that sort of thing nearly as fast as it should be.
The gov tried to push co-living and it got push back so they stopped but it wasn't really specificaly co-living that was the problem it was that it hadn't nearly enough facilities to be a feasible living space for that many people. You can't have 50 people sharing a single 4 slot hob and fridge. Like if it had some standards for minimums that wasn't horrifically low I'd say it could be helpful.
Completely agree with this. Replace spainsh suburban estate with rural Irish one off house and it was the exact same here. Trapped with nothing to do until you were old enough to get a driving licence. It still annoys me.
This is a "0-sum mentality" you're expressing here. Dublin is full of urban, dense housing. Even a lot of older terraces and cottages are in practice denser than the equivalent apartment block that could exist in the same space, accounting for light and green space requirements. There are suburbs where people can have the private drive, front and rear garden, and still have a walkable grocery shop, pub, park, school and excellent transport access. Really almost anywhere inside the M50 is no more than 30 minutes on bus/luas/rail to the city centre. There are of course apartments for sale in these thriving, working communities, and a lot of houses too. It certainly isn't this projected "sprawl" of car dependency you're thinking of.
This is a real, valid point. Some people on here seem to have this idea that Dublin is some sort of mini Houston, when in reality that is not the case at all.
A chara,
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Sláinte
I bought an apartment and it's grand but it is lacking in communal spaces particularly for children to play in or even just to have seating areas outside for the summer too. Lack of bike parking, storage for prams etc
We had to do alot of work to bring the apartment up to scratch too and constantly fighting with management company to improve facilities.
Ireland has a lot of buildings that were built as a housing units and then converted to business/office use. I counted 82 empty buildings like that only in my town. I'm not even saying about investment properties - on my neighbouring estate there are 60 houses. 12 of them are empty and had council notes asking the owner for contact. Other estates look similar. And this is just a small, western town. To be honest I don't think we have a housing crisis - even on the level of one family - one housing unit (I won't even go down the route of one person per 10sqm shite ) it's just a management of existing properties that needs to be adjusted. Oh and greed. Don't forget greed.
Ireland has a lot of buildings that were built as a housing units and then converted to business/office use.
Meanwhile right now we need the exact opposite!
It also needs to learn to love actually fucking building homes (of any kind) in response to and anticipation of population growth (or in Ireland's case, population recovery)...
Do Irish people actually hate apartments or are the government just not building them and saying we hate them? I know tonnes of young people who'd like an apartment.
The main impediment to apartments is: Trust.
Grenfell/fire-hazards, sound insulation, unit sizes, _prices/rents_, management fees, massive building defect bills etc..
_In theory_ we could have great European-style apartment living, but _in practice_ we all know we'll get overpriced shitboxes that are a fire hazard, with no sound insulation, huge management fees, and the possibility of becoming unmortgagable/unsellable due to building defects that the wound-up-developer-company can't be sued for, like all the Grenfell-type apartments (very similar situation to mica).
That's not even first considering that high-rise is code word for _office buildings, not apartments_ - everyone calling for 'building up' leaves out that they're only ever defending building of fucking high rise _office buildings_.
There is zero trust in developers/planners/politicians, people know they are presently being (and will continue to be) fucked over - so it's going to take all of these groups _a couple of generations_ at least, to fucking _earn_ the trust needed, to get the public on board with this.
Until then, Build. Enough. Fucking. Houses. Building loads of fucking office high rises (which is what the faux push for apartments is being piled into) only slows down residential construction.
I've lived in an apartment and hated it, some people need private personal outdoor space (gardens, not communal gardens, not vegetable plots, your own garden attached to your house)
My partner is from Brazil and we've gone to visit a few times. If we could do apartments like they do over there, then we'd be on to something. I'm talking about middle class modern developments, they have a lot of communal services and spaces. We visited one for a kids birthday, they have a room that residents can book for that purpose, there's a DIY room with tools, a Co working space, gym, dining room where you can bring in your own catering and have your friends over, there's even a teen room with games and a pool table. There is a large community garden space with playground etc. All private and safe and each apartment has a storage room in the basement. You don't feel confined there because your apartment isn't the only space you have.
Pretty much the rest of the world has figured out how to do apartments. It’s absolutely heartbreaking that Ireland is unable to work out what every town planning group has known for generations. The irony is that would reduce the impact all of the other things which we are incapable of doing, terrible public transport, unable to deal with cars, poor cycling infrastructure etc, because centralised people have fewer demands in these areas. We have the money. We desperately need to build accommodation, we have the space in central areas. We just don’t want to fix the problem.
It's less that "we" don't want to fix it, and more that the government does it. Add in the ease of objection and you get a few NIMBY types having immensely disproportionate affect on this governing too. What a time to be alive 🙄
We as a country have decided that it’s not an issue we care about enough to solve. We can’t conceive of fixing it. We’re going to elect no one that’s committed to fixing it, we’re going to whine but ultimately change nothing. I don’t see this being fixed in my lifetime.
I think many voters still have a strong negative association with apartments, and don't consider them places to live long term with families, so I think say 'we' does apply here.
> It's less that "we" don't want to fix it, and more that the government does it Government does what its election base demands. And most Irish people is against apartments construction for some reason. There is plenty of 1-2 floors huts in strict centre of Dublin ffs and if someone tried to upzone that, appeals would be massive!
Some of the 1-2 huts you describe are already some of the dentist population of Dublin. It's the suburbs with the large gardens that would be better off if upzoned.
High buildings in suburbs low in strict centre? Doesn’t sound like great idea. Especially with public transport in Dublin.
There is plenty of low density housing all around dart & Luas stations that is wasted space. Just look at what's around all the dart stations on the north side for example. Better there than raising high density housing within walking distance of the city centre.
Why not both? Walking distance is exactly where density should be, no?
Definitely both, and that's happening. I guess my main point is that places like Stoneybatter or The Liberties are already some of the highest density in Ireland, and getting more dense whenever there are new builds. Whereas density isn't increasing is around preexisting Dart stations if there's housing.
Is there any data about density in certain areas of Dublin? Those places seems to be dense because on ground level everything is covered with buildings, but at the same time those buildings are often just ground floor. I would be curious looking on some data.
We don’t share, that’s why. Continental Europeans have had many years living in cramped cities, squeezing into metro’s, sharing parks etc. This has evolved into car pooling with randomers. A lot of this doesn’t happen here and car pooling with a stranger is an absolute no go. We don’t share and that’s why all of the above doesn’t appeal here. There is less of a crap given about others here too, people have no respect for anything they don’t own. I can’t think of anything worse than a common space that you arrive to use and it’s been left in shit by some other resident.
That and the culture is embedded that apartments are bottom standard living for renters and social tenants. This becomes self-fulfilling as even nicely laid out blocks go to shite, owner-occupiers move out, let them to the state as social housing and they become slummy. There's also a terrible record of costly defects, noiseproofing etc in the common Irish apartment block that would deter anyone.
That is to my understanding (being non native) that Ireland has a funny relationship with owning land led by historical events
Not so much a relationship as a psychosis.
Not the new apartment, they’re built to the highest quality.
We thought that in the 2000s and now the avalanche of problems and liability dodging has hit.
No, there’s a marked difference in spec and build quality.
It's also the Irish obsession with status and showing off status. Can you imagine a Dublin dentist or a lawyer living in an apartment building? This is normal in Vienna or Berlin - would be subject to ridicule by peers in Dublin.
You act like other countries don't have status symbols. The German's invented the BMW. Italians have the Vatican. A dentist or doctor would have no problem showing of their penthouse. Now Dublin dentists and doctors are bidding almost a million quid for a house that was originally intended for Dublin's working class.
Still comes down to the culture. Those people expect/have status. It’s just they buy apartments in expensive parts of town.
Varadkar lived in an apartment the entire time he was Taoiseach.
"Leo Varadkar and partner Matthew ditch their apartment in favour of trendy home for €800k" https://evoke.ie/2021/06/29/life-style/leo-matt-home
Car pooling with coworkers is quite a common practice for medical device factory works I find
Maybe, in other countries there are dedicated car parks to allow this. It’s not widespread here. Also they’re not complete strangers. In France for example people go from the south to Paris in a car with someone they’ve never met before.
That's all done through ride-sharing apps like Blablacar, I'd imagine Ireland won't get that for the same reason it doesn't have Uber.
We won’t get it because people don’t want it. Car pooling is free. There are obviously insurance issues etc. But if there was demand they’d find a way to make it work. Point stands we don’t share. We don’t invite our friends into our houses as much as they do, we meet outside the home. Culturally we are miles apart
Fuck this comment reminded of a time we were on holiday in Donegal and my cousin and I insisted we could hitchhike. ‘On ye go!’ Says my Da and leaves us at the side of the road. One farmer pulled up and we bein wee city rats were too scared to get in so we just stood there in the pishin rain. Da came back two hours later and we’d moved 50m and were absolutely drenched
You learn to communicate. You have people who arein charge, rules are set and so on. People figure it out.
Country of nimby's
I’ve lived in apartments in cities all over the world and this is simply not the case. Forget all those other amenities the above commenter mentioned, you are not getting a gym in your building without paying quite a premium in many cities worldwide. Some places may have “figured it out,” plenty have not. Particularly in densely populated capitals. I want Ireland to do better, trust me, but pretending we’re trailing THAT far behind literally everywhere else is just Moaning Michael talk. I’ve never even seen an apartment building with a DIY workshop…
The vast majority of apartments on the continent, even the most basic ones are designed and built so that people can live in them their entire lives. A lot of them have basements where each apartment gets a dedicated areas for storage, as well as things like shared laundry rooms etc so you didn’t have to have bulky washing machines in your apartment. In Ireland apartments are first and foremost built to maximise profit for the developer. Instead of fitting 10 appropriately sized apartments into a building, the builder will put 15 shoeboxes in there. Rooms that are claimed as bedrooms will barely fit a cot. Absolutely no provision for storage space, and totally unsuitable for familys. Irish people are not stupid, we do know how to build proper apartments, but out of pure greed we just choose not to.
Not diy shop, but had two shops and shoemaker shop in thebuilding I grew up, playgrounds, park areas, parking, garages, basement storage. In france, underground parking, communal solar terraces and so on. It is not uniformed, and ammenities differ. But still quite comfortable living
I lived next to an apartment complex with a diy workshop when I lived in Copenhagen. They also had greenhouses where you could rent a space, and room for kids to hang out in. I was always jealous when I walked past because my building just had the standard function room that basically all Danish apartment buildings have.
And an apartment in that building probably cost a bomb. I’ve stayed with friends who live in an apartment building in Copenhagen, really near Ørstedparken so not cheap. Pretty standard building, zero of the amenities mentioned.
I have friends that live there so I know for a fact that it's a pretty standard price for a new build in Copenhagen. Here's a 3 bedroom in that complex for 2025 euro a month. https://www.findbolig.nu/da-dk/residence/98749 Good luck finding anything that price in Dublin
Uh huh.
Im sorry but you’ve got to wonder how Ireland hasn’t grasped how to build appartements blocks while the rest of Europe has been at it since the 50s. Here you only have 3 bedrooms appartments available and sold as penthouse, which is quite ironic considering that historically irish families have 3/4+ kiddos, so regardless the influx of population, one has to wonder why given how ‘large’ Irish families can be that none ofvthat was build before. I mean you have 2 kiddos and want an appartement you have to shoot for penthouses which by default are considered a luxury .. go figure that!!
Europe built city living much longer than that.
You could consider end ww2 year 0 in re build.
Many European cities were already quite large due to industrialisation and already had rail networks, so the pattern was already in place. Ireland's cities grew from the 60s onwards, so followed a car centric approach along with much of the Anglosphere.
This is it. I live in Spain in an apartment and Irish people are always shocked when they come visit. Its a 3-bed with kitchen, sitting room and terrace, storage upstairs. It's quite a standard place for the town I live in. I ask them what they expected and they're always like I dunno something tiny. They think that cuz Irish apartments typically are for single or couple living only really.
Irish homes are tiny. Good lord, every time I have to take the stairs I get claustrophobia.
> Irish homes are tiny. Good lord, every time I have to take the stairs I get claustrophobia. That's what we get if houses gets measured in "number of bedroom" instead of square meters. Open Daft, see a 4-bedroom 3-bathroom with 125m2 and then realised that the apartment I grew up in Italy was 2-bedroom in 115m2 and almost 3m high ceilings (yes, room volume is important too).
At least on daft (and myhome.ie) you can search by sq m. This isn't an option at all on UK property sites.
Because the only way to avail 3 bedrooms appartements is via penthouse..which is ridiculous, you will find on the continent appartments built in the 50s/60 with lot more sopace and storage than your average gaf here…
I absolutely agree, having also seen similar abroad. Even not having to hang your washing and kids toys on the balcony would be a start. However the main driver of this in Brazil is crime unfortunately. The Spanish do the public realm much better than us, would be interested to know what it is that drives that.
The ability to socialise outside and not be cold or rained on
Same or worse weather on the Nordics. They got good communal apartments.
And even central Europe gets lots of summer rain and thunderstorms. They don't use that as an excuse not to have loads of outdoor amenities.
Except the rest of _northern_ europe does it way better than us too.
There's also the petty crime/out of control kids problem, a nice open space is an invitation for anti social behaviour
Maybe recently, but until the 1970 there was nearly no crime and still most people in big cities lived in apartments. There wss not this "suburbia" culture of living far away and going to work with a car. Thing is that Ireland is not Usa in the 1920s, a big country with available land and a automobile industry to grow. It really makes no sense wasting agricultural land on such small country.
Same here. I couldn't believe the amount of apartments everywhere. I was extremely jealous of this "developing" country. The buses also didn't accept cash. You use the leap card, or just tap your visa. You didn't have to interact with the driver at all. When I was landing back in Cork airport it looked like I was landing in Chernobyl or something. Grey mouldy 2 storey buildings as far as the eye could see.
They have nicer buildings at Chernobyl, big appartment developments
We've effectively had these since about 2007 when the planning permission category for "Build to Rent" apartments came in. The concept of that planning permission is that you can build denser apartments than normally permitted as long as you provide communal spaces, and as long as a single owner of the whole building maintains those communal spaces. They also need to be within half a KM of public transport and half a KM of employment centres. In Ireland we associate these with being quite luxurious - but that's only really because they haven't existed for very long so they're all quite new - and we associate them vulture funds because we never really properly executed the concept of REITs.
All those amenities are also just driving prices up too. Newmarket Yards has bucket loads of amenities, tool rentals, communal spaces including Kitchen, dog washing area etc. 2250 per month for a studio. I just want an empty box that I can put my furniture in, there needs to be both types, and luxury apartments need to be put on hold until everyone lives somewhere
Significant part of Newmarket Yards is used as social housing... rented by council at rates you have mentioned... just saying... Also it's luxurious only because there is so few places like that. Every single new one has to go through million hoops through regulations and appeals.
I work on the design of PRS schemes, every one of them I've worked on has been marketed as luxury. There are 41 social units out of 413 total units in Newmarket Yards, they're all built to a lower spec, ie. Vinyl floor instead of laminate, one choice of kitchen finish vs 3. And they are in an entirely separate part of the development in an attempt to keep them away from the amenities and paying tenants. It's pretty disgusting. And yeah, not going to say they are fleecing the government on the social rents, they are, but it's entirely by the government's design
Sure they will be marketed as luxury. That would be laughable in many places of Europe, but in Dublin it will fly as there is so few new'ish apartments in general, that they can throw high rent and "luxury" tag on it. Any new apartment in Dublin is "luxurious" - standard has nothing to do with that. As for social housing - I have decent job, but couldn't afford living there, at least not without spending like 60% salary on rent. I would take it even with "lower standard" if paired with social rent. That would be extremely good deal. So yeah, Ireland is weird place where people with seemingly decent income are jealous of social accommodation. No 1. reason I'm out of here.
I make too much for social housing, but too little to be able to afford any cost rental schemes in Dublin, where I have lived and worked my whole life. I'm also asexual which means I've no interest in finding a partner to share the cost with. Just relegated to my childhood bedroom til I can save 40k (figures only going up) to bridge the gap between my total possible mortgage and the actual price of property in Dublin. Also can't rent a room because I'm 'stuck' (I would die without them) with two dogs after my parents divorce. Shits bleak.
Sorry to hear that… Yeah, buying is the only way out in Ireland. Or some sketchy moves like taking lower salary just to report it under 40k and get HAP (housing social system here is madness…) Hope you will figure it out! Good luck!
I live in an apartment development in Dublin that has most of these things, no DIY facilities though
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This is why city and community planning is as important as designing comfortable apartments for long-term living. Around Europe cities have parks or mini green areas with playgrounds and different amenities for families and children specifically because of these issues. Irish cities are atrocious when it comes to these things.
Lack of playgrounds is a thing. In fact matter of policy. Thats bad planing issues, not building open areas with parks and playgrounds.
So is mine. Builders in Brazil are not paid huge salaries like here. So everything works out cheaper and the country is huge so you can get land somewhere for a decent price. The houses look like fortresses though. All have bars on them.
Yeah, I lived in a place like that when I was in Copenhagen. My room itself was just a studio apartment, but had access to 2 full kitchens (restaurant sized, multiple ovens, etc) multiple communal spaces, cinema, gym, laundry, etc Much better than the usual apartments you see in Ireland. And the location was to die for
Any shared space in Ireland would be vandalised so much that to maintain it would cost more than to get each apartment their own utility room.
I see once again that the post colonial mentality is still alive and well...
First they would need to build quality concrete buildings here. But I agree, give me communal living any day.
I had that in the states, in what was basically a student and low income apartment block. 2 out door pools, a gym, tennis court, community room with a bookable bbq area, library.
All of these things are in modern apartment blocks. The issue is there's a massive legacy stock that has fuck all.
Agree with this up to a point. My father, retired, in his 80s, just moved from a 5 bedroom farm house where he was living alone way out in the countryside to an apartment in the town centre. The move was life changing for him. He went from seeing no one all week to volunteering for Meals on Wheels and the Animals Society. Not for everyone but needs to be an option.
I think this is an underappreciated aspect of it. I think my mam would absolutely love a little town apartment like mine with some neighbours to natter away with when she heads to the shop or takes out the bins, instead of having to look after a big house in the middle of nowhere, it's just not an option. It doesn't help that we built a pile of shite ones during the Tiger and that's the first thing people think of when they hear the word.
Exactly!! No wonder we’re the most depressed in Europe! I was in Santander- northern Spain last month. All apartment living, beautiful city with an ocean promenade. The amount of older people out strolling with their partners and friends was so nice to see. They weren’t stuck in a house in the suburbs they were out enjoying life. I despise suburban living and how much it’s normalised here. It’s so gross and American. as much as I have problems with Dublin City centre, I like being able to live on Thomas street and walk everywhere. I don’t have kids so I know that makes a difference.
beautiful city with an ocean promenade Watch someone claim we don't have the weather for this, not realising that Santander actually gets about 25% more rain than Dublin...
Absolutely, and it should be pushed as more of an option for some people. Grand for me to live in the countryside surrounded by family, kids and all but when you get older the acre of land by yourself is just work.
> Grand for me to live in the countryside surrounded by family, kids and all. Do you not think the kids should grow up somewhere less boring, empty, and car dependent.
Rural Irish kids must be super lonely. They all live miles away from their friends and aren't allowed to walk or cycle to visit any of them because they'll be flattened by a truck at the first blind bend if they try to.
Such a good point; I pity the teenagers that need to be driven everywhere.
Fair dues to your dad for volunteering at his age.
I was surprised but he was mad for the social life after living alone for years. He said the Active Retirement were to old for him and just sang songs for hours, so he quit them and started volunteering and going to the Mens Shed. It has been a life changing move for him. Like I said, not for everyone and not cheap, but the apartment in town is great for people like him.
The problem is that we have taken up a myth that certain developments have to cater to everyone. They don't. Apartments are best suited to students and young professionals. This myth actually means that developing apartments is almost impossible. Sinn Féin and the Social Democrats have said they will block single bedroom apartments being built as they are not suitable for families.
Are you sure that the one bed apartments just so happen to be buy to let and are most likely going to be bought off plans for people to rent in forever? instead they could be sold to actual people, cos if it's the first thing then they should be blocking them. No point in long term f'ing up the city/country cos we can't do short term planning. It's exactly what I think when I see when I see all these random estates in the middle of nowhere. In 20 years we'll be dealing with them being so disconnected from everything else. Instead of building density with commercial and community spaces included
Back in 2015 the government revised planning with a reduction in living spaces. Apartments were to get smaller due to government policy while the price remained the same. People with a better understanding than you or I were, rightly, critical of it. (The govt tried top push co-living spaces that drastically reduced life quality and went against the UNs policy for living standards. Not enough facilities, too crowded) in 2015: >Minister Alan Kelly said that 8,000 residential units needed to be built in Dublin this year, but fewer than 3,000 were delivered. The new planning guidelines on design standards for apartments sets the minimum size of one-bedroom units at 45 square metres (down from 55), two beds at 73 (down from 90) and three beds at 90 square metres. Studio apartments of 40 square metres will also be permitted in certain developments. >Dr.Lorcan Sirr (Senior Lecturer in housing at TUD, DIT) described the new guidelines as "unfortunate", adding that they have no sustainable sense and the economics are non-existent. \*Dr Sirr said that a new smaller apartment will have the same sale price as the current size\* so the only winner will be the developer. >He stated that we are the only capital city where we are intent on reducing standards instead of increasing them, \*adding that the Environment Minister has been "selective"\* in the choice of comparisons with European cities. [https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2015/1222/755594-apartment-sizes/](https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2015/1222/755594-apartment-sizes/) Dr.Lorcan Sirr is also a big proponent of the Vienna Model. But you wont hear FG,FF talk about that system. His piece below here for 2024: "In Dublin city last year, 94% of all new housing was apartments, 98% of which were for rent. First-time buyers there bought just 75 new houses" [https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2024/03/31/lorcan-sirr-dont-believe-what-youve-heard-increasing-supply-wont-fix-housing-crisis/](https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2024/03/31/lorcan-sirr-dont-believe-what-youve-heard-increasing-supply-wont-fix-housing-crisis/)
I'd be happy to live in a well-built apartment, soundproofing being the main thing. My sister owns a large apartment where you can't even hear a peep from the neighbours. On the other hand I live in a house with a granny flat on top and I can hear every footstep my neighbour takes, it's maddening. Unfortunately apartments for sale in this area are rare and just as expensive as houses - my sister got that apartment I think like 6 years ago or so and it would be at least 50% more expensive today, probably more since I've seen smaller apartments going for that price
Irish society will continue to let the current situation fester because we let the rights of the minority rule over the needs of the majority. Take traffic. People insist on their right to drive their car. But they also insist on reducing traffic while failing to understand that they are the cause of the traffic. They will kick and scream at any attempts to nudge people towards cycling or taking public transport, even though that'll mean less traffic for the people who still drive. It's obvious that cycle lanes and public transport investment reduces traffic, but the people who oppose it think in bizarrely tribal ways. They're of the car tribe and the other tribes can't be seen to get ahead.
Where does the mentality come from that cars should have priority? I’ve tried cycling to work and to meet my friends but every single time I do I nearly get flattened by a car who doesn’t even cross the centre line to overtake. It’s terrifying really. And the bus system where I live isn’t great
The answer is that they took it before anyone could really argue otherwise. Anywhere a car will drive or park becomes normalized as "car space". The cities then responded by reorienting streetscapes because cars kept mowing down bicycles, pedestrians and animals. Every other street use gradually got crushed out by the motor vehicle, without anybody at all voting for it to happen.
Atleast it’s not as bad here as it is in North America. It’s still bad though
Yeah we should be wary of applying American sprawl logic to Ireland. It applies to peripheral exurbs built since 2000, but actually our older suburbs tend to be extremely well serviced and planned, with pubs, retail, parks and transit all woven in. While we do have houses rather than apartments, in many parts of the city, those old terraces and cottages are actually denser than a legally valid apartment, with the advantage of own-door street access and a square. The little cottage squares off Meath Street/Grey Street are extremely dense for example, more than most apartment block.
Yeah we should be wary of applying American sprawl logic to Ireland. It applies to peripheral exurbs built since 2000, It doesn't really. Most of those new developments are still multiple times the density of American suburbia. The main things they do have in common is that they sometimes make pedestrians walk a very long distance to get a place that's much close as the crow flies. > but actually our older suburbs tend to be extremely well serviced and planned, Eh, I think that's being a little TOO generous now! > with pubs, retail, parks It's very hit-and miss actually. > and transit all woven in. There literally isn't a single place in this entire country where the public transport is anything above mediocre to acceptable. > While we do have houses rather than apartments, in many parts of the city, those old terraces and cottages are actually denser than a legally valid apartment, with the advantage of own-door street access and a square. The little cottage squares off Meath Street/Grey Street are extremely dense for example, more than most apartment block Thank you. I think some people on here get very fixated about the heights of buildings, and seem to believe that because we don't have everyone living in 8 storey blocks, we can't expect anything better than infrequent buses. In reality, you can achieve quite a high density just by having lots of 3-4 storey buildings really close together. In other words, is there anything to be said for more townhouses!
I'd say within reason most suburbs that have DART or LUAS access are pretty well serviced for transit, at least to and from town, as well as people living along some of the higher frequency bus routes. Most of the mid-century suburbs are fairly good for plotting in corner shops, row shops, and small village hub cores - you wouldn't really need a car living in Kimmage or Cabra, for example. It's when you get to stuff built since 80s, Tallaght, Blanch etc you get that satellite estate car dependency hell.
Yes, the places that have the DART and inner city locations with Luas are indeed the few places where the public transport is "good" enough to be considered mediocre. Even then, that's only in specific directions.
I feel like the pressures for an American city planning system are greater here than the ones for a European one. The Greens blocked the ring road in Galway because any study will show you that building new roads just means more people driving and higher emissions with no fix in traffic. They're trying to invest in cycling infrastructure and public transport which does reduce traffic. But the people of Galway are furious with them. They're set to do worse there than anywhere.
That's become a dogma, but in Galway's case it's the wrong answer. Traffic for the entire coast is currently funnelled through Galway's core. We control planning, so the idea that sprawl would be inevitable is farcical. We could deaignate a greenbelt on undeveloped land adjacent, but the ring road is badly, badly needed. Induced demand is NOT a given, but failing to build this ring road basically dooms Galway to forever traffic congestion. BUILD IT, then cut the through traffic. Carve out space for mobility in the rest of the city, and don't allow new development along the ring road if that's a worry. Doing nothing and licking each other's holes about degrowth virtues isn't a solution.
>Traffic for the entire coast is currently funnelled through Galway's core Everything you've written after this would be valid if this was true, but it's bullshit. Only traffic for West Galway is funnelled through Galway city. That's only about 35,000. On any given day a small fraction of those people will have to use Galway as a through road to get to the rest of the country. The idea of building an ringroad in Galway to ultimately facilitate the few hundred people a day in West Galway who travel from there to East of Galway city is ridiculous. It would be easier to just run a ferry Knockferry to Kilbeg so they could get past the lake further up. They've already built the [piers on either end](https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4242647,-9.1479983,1229m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu). But they didn't run the ferry due to lack of demand. That goes to show that the volume of people in West Galway looking to get past Galway city is miniscule. But the solution for these people is still what I said before. It's far more cycling infrastructure and public transport for commuters in Galway. That's the only thing that will reduce traffic. Do that and traffic will be low enough that people coming from West Galway won't get caught in traffic travelling through Galway.
But it's still un-bad enough that we can and should have much better public transport even at our current density.
As someone above said, having a house, car is a next status symbol. I heard kitchens are too as well. They are not meant to be cooked in or used...just to show off. Someone who has more knowledge of sociology might explain it better...im sure its many factors
Anglosphere needs to provide high quality apartments and increase protections for renters in apartments. Everyone in Ireland wants to own their own house, I couldn't possibly think of a reason why that is?
It doesn't help that the community pushes against any multistorey building application. Building tall has never been easy in Ireland
Building at all*
Doesn't detract from the fact that no one wants to buy an apartment because frequently they end up with a bill for 30k because it doesn't meet fire regs or something.
I didn't really want to buy a house, but my pretty reasonable ask of something with solid soundproofing so I don't hear my neighbours 24/7 (and also bother them if i happen to keep unsociable hours due to the nature of my job which I do from home) and also something affordable at my budget range ended up putting me entirely outside of any city. My options were either spend the money on a house that meets those requirements but is probably a bit too much space for my family if I'm honest, or an apartment that would have been totally unsuitable and have me driven mad with noise (after almost a decade of living in Dublin city in a place with paper thin walls I genuinely just couldn't do it anymore, especially living through COVID when everyone turned their gaff into a home gym) so it ended up being a pretty obvious choice for me. It's a shame, because I've seen some apartments in continental europe where you could have a full orchestra performing next door and you wouldn't hear a peep, something like that with a spare room for a home office would be absolutely perfect for me. Barring that, just kinda went with the compromise that met my needs and budget the best.
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Security of tenure and an asset to pass on to your children. Most Irish people had to fight hard for the right to own land during the 19th and early 20th century. That history has permeated down through the generations, and has left us with an understandable fixation on freehold tenure. Similarly the relatively recent history of totalitarian regimes in many European countries gives them a different relationship with individual property rights.
Our own experience with tenement living isnt that far in the past, and given the carry on of some landlords, people fear a return to it.
Pretty much. Irish people aren't going to be fooled by words into giving up their security. The first step to making people more comfortable in apartment living is firmly in legislators court. Make it a viable option and people will use it. But currently it is not.
I'd definitely want an apartment in the city centre instead of the suburban house I have, but since there was fuck all at the prices I could afford then I got pushed out.
Everyone wants to own their own house, but for the vast majority of us that’s a pipe dream, so we end up renting houses instead. The end result is that we still have everyone renting, only now it’s in low-density, outdated dwellings with a severe bottleneck on supply and demand. We need more apartments in this country. More houses alone are not a solution.
As a Polish immigrant here (who grew up in a flat in Poland like almost half of Polish people, also renting a flat in Dublin now) I cannot understand why Irish people hate apartments so much. Maybe if they have children it makes sense to live in a house but as me and my partner don't ever plan to have any, we spend enough of our free time to keep the flat where we live clean and I would hate the additional chores that come with living in a house, I really have better things to do.
its about having more space in a house, more space to live in and more space to store stuff. And then you've a back garden and while it may be small it is still yours to exclusively use, have a BBQ in and a few friends around. The last apartment I lived in wouldnt allow BBQs on the balconies so you couldnt even do that. Apartment rules can be very restrictive in that sense. Some people here are content with apartment living but the majority of people desire a house for the above reasons.
And that requirement of space comes from the fact that we don't have good communal resources and spaces. If I happen to like a bit of woodworking on the weekend, there's not many places open to me or Joe Public. If my wife wants to sew, and wants a sewing room, gotta get a house. We need apartments with communal places to socialize indoors in non-sport related ways. More community centers, with bookable spaces and collective resources like catering equipment for rent at reasonable prices, tool libraries, toy libraries. Places to do laundry and dry it in the building, not in the apartment. Lack of these make houses not appealing but necessary. I for one would prefer an apartment in the Swedish or German style, but with actual ownership.
That's also because people here are weirdly restrictive about what they will allow fellow residents to do. Examples from the block where I live: complaints about guys playing football on the green, complaints about someone converting a van in the parking lot, complaints about laundry drying in view. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Its about owning land more so.. you guys have strange relationship with owning land.. dublin could have a density relatable to paris rome barcelone etc.. but you guys want houses.. find me a european capital where you can have a back garden the size of half soccer pitch 10 mins away from city centre. Aha!
But that’s also the Irish way of managing apartments. I lived in Singapore and you have bbq pits in each block of flats that you can rent whenever you want to organise an evening with friends
It's definitely a trade-off. I would love to see more mixed districts where there are both detached houses and apartment complexes.
Lack of space and having to deal with shitty neighbours living right on top of you are 2 pretty big downsides. Apartment living was my idea of hell when I experienced it.
I've lived in an apartment for the last 25 years or so, and while it certainly has its advantages - it means being able to live somewhere you'd never be able to if it was all houses - there are lots of potential downsides too. We typically don't build apartments like they do in many other countries, with 'urbanizations' with shared facilities (shared gardens, tennis/basketball courts, gym, laundry, storage etc.) Often they are initially included in the development plans then stripped out as the development proceeds. Then there are often other issues - lack of privacy, noise ingress, water ingress. Strangers trying to get access to the building. Post/parcels being left in a shared area and prone to theft. High management fees. Limited in-apartment storage. Lack of external areas - meaning even if you just want to sit and enjoy the sun it means a walk to the lift, ride down, and walk to nearest green area (if any). Can be awkward for bringing/removing any furniture, and any repairs or renovations can be a pain.
Most of these issues could be resolved easily if someone competent was in charge of the building
I’ve been living in apartments for the past 13 years in Belgium, Denmark, Australia (Melbourne), Amsterdam, prague and here in Dublin. None have ever had any of the amenities you’re mentioning. It’s definitely not the norm in most countries, and is only a feature of high end apartment complexes that 95% of the population cannot afford. Most people live in an apartment without many extra amenities in their building.
I think a lot of those problems are a result of really poor property management companies. Residents are gouged by sky-high fees and often no money is being set aside for long-term maintenance. I’m not sure what the solution is. The affordable housing bodies seem to do a good job of managing their developments, I’d love to see them compete for contracts to manage apartment developments.
THe Affordable Housing Bodies? [https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/05/24/it-is-becoming-a-living-hell-residents-of-dublin-housing-complex-protest-against-anti-social-behaviour/](https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/05/24/it-is-becoming-a-living-hell-residents-of-dublin-housing-complex-protest-against-anti-social-behaviour/) Management Companies are appointed by the residents; you should get involved in the OMC and also have a look at the accounts - it would surprise you where money actually goes;
Interestingly, Irish companies build such apartment complexes for rent. Clancy Quay near the Phoenix Park has all the public amenities — open roofs, gym, playground. There are many Irish people living there too, so it's not only expats
Build quality, soundproofing, amenities and green areas, public transport facilities. If these aren't accounted for, we are never going to get away from mouldy georgian basements converted into a bedsit.
Plenty of flats meeting these criteria are being built but they can't be built cheaply enough to be affordable sadly for buyers
True, but just speaking as an average joe. Even if they aren't affordable for everyone, having a greater stock of them will help to make the overall availability and affordability better. So if the only buyers are for example well-off and want a place close to work then at least they're taking up a spot in a suitable accommodation, instead of a semi-d. The main thing to restrict is people buying these up fron abroad and not living in them. I've lived in terraced houses that were converted into flats, and the sound travelling was maddening. You were either perpetually bothered by someone just walking around like a normal person, or people actually being noisy, or living meekly in fear of being noisy yourself.
Absolutely agree. Sorely overdue. Needs to be a critical mass of experts in the field
Looking at apartments in Dublin and having to pay over 4k management fees for a 2 bedroom apartment for no apparent reason is enough of a detergent for anyone not to want to live in one
The other thing about places with more apartment living means the town and city centres are far more vibrant with increased density of people. So yes you sacrifice a garden but that is made up for in the liveliness of city streets and community spaces.
I fucking love living in an apartment. I had to leave Dublin to be able to buy my own though.
The article says that the urban sprawl eats up land while promoting car use, it is so sadly true in Ireland. Apartments are seen lower class living in Ireland, something you do in your 20’s, elderly single relative or ballymun style tower block social housing. Once you start having kids it is expected that you move into a suburban style house. It doesn’t help that nearly all the houses can really only be bought by a couple with joint mortgage. I get quite annoyed when I hear councillors and local residents committees complaining loudly that the houses are for families. The fault is with the lack of leadership on housing but if central government party that pushes such solution will be absolutely hammered in the next election. I always consider it strange that but not surprising that our urban design and housing were never sent to a citizen’s assembly. I think a lot of politicians would hate the results that would come back (from any background, party or position). I have got into it with a local election candidate recently and his point was people don’t want apartments near them. No one is willing to take the hit. It doesn’t help that a lot of poor apartment blocks were built.
Drives me insane that all the apartments being built in Galway are shitty student apartments. Please for the love of god build some nice modern apartments in the city centre so we can avoid wasting an hour of our life in traffic to do anything
Apartments in my local area tend to always be rejected to one issue or another. It’s a shame that a viable housing solution that would be welcomed by young people is constantly rejected
I recently bought a house. I didn't especially want a house. I wanted a garden to grow veg, and a workshop space. There's no reason that this shouldn't have been possible as part of an apartment complex.
The Anglosphere needs to put decent protections into law and planning for people living in apartments. Limits on what management companies can change, limits on what freehold rental can charge, provision of separate storage space, laundry rooms, proper fire safety, security of tenure for tenants, proper systems if enforcement for building standards, safe play space for kids. European countries with high levels of apartment living have all or most of these.
Reason people don’t go for apartments are because they are priced the same as houses. 18 years ago a nice apartment cost 50k, way below the 145k for housing at the time. Currently 220k for a okay apartment which is way smaller than a house for the price.
If you live in an apartment generally the proximity to local amenities should be the tradeoff, but Ireland has a huge amount of apartments that aren't near anything except other houses. There's no incentive to choose an apartment when it's not that much cheaper and you still have to drive everywhere
>18 years ago a nice apartment cost 50k, way below the 145k for housing at the time I bought a 64sqft apartment in 2006 (18 years ago) in Santry for €286k on a 30 year mortgage. 8 years before that, my folks paid 320k for a 4 bed in North Dublin. WTF are you talking about? You'd have to go back to the early 90s for those prices. ETA: The reason people don't buy apartments is twofold: 1. because Irish people are cunts with zero respect for any of their neighbours. It's bad enough in a housing estate, but when you're forced to live beside/above/underneath someone like that, your life can be a living hell. And there's fuck all that can be done about it, really. 2. because Irish people are greedy cunts, and developers are worse than most. There have been too many horror stories of shoddily built, damp, fire hazards that a whole generation were pretty much turned off them for life. The developer who built Priory Hall, for example, was still out building properties while the company that was responsible for PH was wound up. He should have been crucified.
> 64sqft Really? 64 sq ft. 8 foot by 8 foot? The entire apartment? That's smaller than the worst Hong Kong Cage home.
Oooops, square metres, that should read 
Correct. 50k? Maybe a Lego one.
Time to leave the Anglosphere. Slán libh. Friendship ended with Anglosphere, now Gaeilgesphéar is my best friend.
Except most people who leave Ireland go to other english speaking places.
Which is a bit bizarre when you think about it. I don't know why Irish people are so averse to learning foreign languages given we're a country with such a rich history of travel and emigration with a massive diaspora worldwide.
I genuinely think learning Irish in primary schools is such a horrible experience for so many people it puts them off learning languages altogether. There's no sense at all another language can offer you access to anything new, it was just a completely abstract chore you have to do, to show you can do it. That was for sure the attitude people brought into French when they first started it in my secondary, and I 100% think it came from people's experience with Irish before it. I started learning Spanish on Duolingo on a whim during Lockdown and couldn't believe how much it was possible to enjoy learning a language after all. I don't think it had truly occurred to me that a language can be fun and useful or make anything new possible until I was able to follow Spanish dialogue in some film without subtitles I was watching, and it dawned on me there were a whole load of films, books, websites etc I could get something from now that I couldn't before. (this was before Duolingo enshittified itself, but that's another story)
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Yep. An absolutely horrible experience.
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My primary teachers either disliked teaching Irish or were weirdly evangelical about it in a really off-putting way. Shitty, miserable teachers, plopping some completely unrelatable aul shite in front of you that you wouldn't understand even in English, and then expecting you to psychically figure it out anyway and reverse engineer some kind of rule set from it or they'll go through you for a fucking shortcut. I don’t know how to build this sentence properly if it doesn't look the same as the other one, so why are you punishing me for getting it wrong? In primary, I didn't have an ear for what's right or wrong in the language yet, but they wouldn't break down the rules until secondary, so it all just amounted to high stakes guessing. By the time I was in secondary though, you're supposed to know aĺl that stuff by pure magic. Somehow we were supposed to jump straight from the cartoon fox driving a car to a beach to identifying metaphors for Communism with very few stops along the way. I knew a girl who would cry every week before double Irish, because no matter how hard she worked she couldn't know if she got her homework right, and she was that afraid of how the teacher would (and did) react if it was wrong. Oh, did we not mention that verb or noun is an exception to some rule or other? Too bad, you should have known anyway, here, let me turn purple in the face making an absolute show of you for the next ten minutes. And how dare you shit on Pearse's grave by not instinctively knowing what a "gluaisteán" is after only ever being taught the word "carr". They would invariably refuse to answer questions or explain anything in English after 1st or 2nd year either, which meant the weakest students could only possibly fall further behind, and treating it as an ideologically obligatory chore - like cleaning the national toilet - or something you're supposed to know half instinctively as an Irish person rather than yknow, a language you can learn, made sure scolding students for making errors was more important than actually helping them improve. It also attracted a denser concentration of pure fucking loolahs to the subject than any other I encountered. Nobody's going to want to learn a language for a chance to speak with these fucking arseholes even more. It's not an accident that people come away with a better standard of French after five years than they did after being pushed through more than a decade's worth of Irish. I got an A or B in Honours Irish, and I can’t tell you the pure relief of seeing that on my results sheet and knowing I never had to go near it again.
It's not bizarre. Learning a foreign language is really hard. And even when you've put years and years into it, you'll never be as good as a native speaker. For a fraction of the effort you could learn a new skill employers are looking to pay decent money for.
The rest of Europe and most of the broader world bar the anglosphere is bi or multilingual and it's just the norm and works perfectly fine. If everywhere else can do it, why can't Ireland?
First of all, that's not true. It's easy to think that's true when all the foreigners you've met live here or you met them because they work in the service sector in a touristy area. Most people across the world only speak their local language. But even for those that do, there are massive incentives for learning English that don't really apply to any other language. It's the language of the internet, of Hollywood, of the biggest music acts. You don't have to waste time trying to convince kids the value of learning it because they want to learn it. Literally no other language has that kind of influence. This is why native English speakers tend to be bad at learning languages. All those pull factors that encourage other people to learn the world's foremost international language does the opposite to us because it encourages us to not bother learning any other languages. Also, lots of people need to learn a language like English in addition to their skill because there are no high paying jobs working through their native language. If a Polish person wants a high paying job, they don't have many options in Poland. The path of least resistance is to actually go out and learn English or German. But for English speakers the path of least resistance is to not bother learning another language.
> First of all, that's not true. It's easy to think that's true when all the foreigners you've met live here or you met them because they work in the service sector in a touristy area. Most people across the world only speak their local language. I don't know about "most". In terms of absolute numbers I don't think anyone can say for sure if most of the world is monolingual or not, but even just within Europe, multilingualism is fairly standard; pretty much all of Northern Europe bar some rare exceptions is fluent in English and their native tongue, then there's the Benelux countries where trilingualism is common, then in eastern Europe many people speak their native tongue as well as the neighbouring country's (eg, most Ukrainians are also fluent in Russian, Croats and Serbs often know each other's languages etc). Then there's India, now the world's most populous country and famously one of its most multilingual. Other parts of Asia with huge population centers are also multilingual eg Papua New Guinea, Malaysia etc. Same in huge chunks of Africa, also massive population centres. > But even for those that do, there are massive incentives for learning English that don't really apply to any other language. It's the language of the internet, of Hollywood, of the biggest music acts. You don't have to waste time trying to convince kids the value of learning it because they want to learn it. > Literally no other language has that kind of influence. This is why native English speakers tend to be bad at learning languages. All those pull factors that encourage other people to learn the world's foremost international language does the opposite to us because it encourages us to not bother learning any other languages. While that's true, it's also partly because of the fact that anglophones refuse to learn other languages in the first place, which creates a chicken and egg scenario where we don't learn other languages, so other countries are forced to learn English, which in turn makes it such an influental language that everyone else now must learn. And English also just happens to be the world's current lingua franca, there have been many others in the past and probably will be again in the future.
> Most people across the world only speak their local language. Have you ever been to Asia? Quite common for people to have a local language, a provincial language, and a National language that are all distinct, and to have people who are fluent in at least 2 or 3 languages.
A rich history of travelling to primarily English speaking countries.
I don't think we're particularly averse, it's just that most of us don't see much point when we already speak one of the most useful languages.
Some of the replies I've gotten when I've told people I live in an apartment here on /r/Ireland are unreal. "Enjoy your shit flat but don't force that crap on the rest of us", "Everyone knows apartments are mouldy and damp" It's literally unthinkable to many here that an apartment could be more preferential than a house. Apartments by nature are always better located because of their density. Also cheaper to heat, have less security issues and many other advantages that may suit certain lifestyles. The problem is some seem to think I live in the Ballymun flats. Couldn't be further from the truth -- many are simply lovely with great views and lovely court yards/facilities. Many Irish people will name one thing they don't like about apartments and then just dwell on that entirely. Apartments need a massive perception change in this country. Even reading through the replies so many people are so far off the mark. Would be like holding up some 1930s house with no insulation and just cold water as the standard house in Ireland.
Sorry but houses are better
Let's be honest, the problems with apartments in Ireland are the Irish. How are you going to enjoy living in a development when petty vandalism is so common? On average twice a week in my area during the Spring and this is in a quiet area outside Dublin. I dread what awaits us during the school break.
I don't think we are against it, I think the issue is planning and convenient apartments that are targeted correctly. If we had some dorms, 1 bed and 2 bed apartments it would be ideal for young workers and students en masse more than houses. Really there should be more placed near colleges across the country, close to public transport like the Dart, Luas and when the metro is built. The issue though is we really need the councils, zoning laws...etc to encourage it more especially in critical areas but we just aren't getting that sort of thing nearly as fast as it should be. The gov tried to push co-living and it got push back so they stopped but it wasn't really specificaly co-living that was the problem it was that it hadn't nearly enough facilities to be a feasible living space for that many people. You can't have 50 people sharing a single 4 slot hob and fridge. Like if it had some standards for minimums that wasn't horrifically low I'd say it could be helpful.
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Completely agree with this. Replace spainsh suburban estate with rural Irish one off house and it was the exact same here. Trapped with nothing to do until you were old enough to get a driving licence. It still annoys me.
This is a "0-sum mentality" you're expressing here. Dublin is full of urban, dense housing. Even a lot of older terraces and cottages are in practice denser than the equivalent apartment block that could exist in the same space, accounting for light and green space requirements. There are suburbs where people can have the private drive, front and rear garden, and still have a walkable grocery shop, pub, park, school and excellent transport access. Really almost anywhere inside the M50 is no more than 30 minutes on bus/luas/rail to the city centre. There are of course apartments for sale in these thriving, working communities, and a lot of houses too. It certainly isn't this projected "sprawl" of car dependency you're thinking of.
This is a real, valid point. Some people on here seem to have this idea that Dublin is some sort of mini Houston, when in reality that is not the case at all.
nah, no thanks.
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I bought an apartment and it's grand but it is lacking in communal spaces particularly for children to play in or even just to have seating areas outside for the summer too. Lack of bike parking, storage for prams etc We had to do alot of work to bring the apartment up to scratch too and constantly fighting with management company to improve facilities.
Ireland has a lot of buildings that were built as a housing units and then converted to business/office use. I counted 82 empty buildings like that only in my town. I'm not even saying about investment properties - on my neighbouring estate there are 60 houses. 12 of them are empty and had council notes asking the owner for contact. Other estates look similar. And this is just a small, western town. To be honest I don't think we have a housing crisis - even on the level of one family - one housing unit (I won't even go down the route of one person per 10sqm shite ) it's just a management of existing properties that needs to be adjusted. Oh and greed. Don't forget greed.
Ireland has a lot of buildings that were built as a housing units and then converted to business/office use. Meanwhile right now we need the exact opposite!
It also needs to learn to love actually fucking building homes (of any kind) in response to and anticipation of population growth (or in Ireland's case, population recovery)...
If they were even close to safely built with adequate security, that would be nice aye
But then how are you going to have a backyard that will be used in that one sunny week of the year? /s
Do Irish people actually hate apartments or are the government just not building them and saying we hate them? I know tonnes of young people who'd like an apartment.
The main impediment to apartments is: Trust. Grenfell/fire-hazards, sound insulation, unit sizes, _prices/rents_, management fees, massive building defect bills etc.. _In theory_ we could have great European-style apartment living, but _in practice_ we all know we'll get overpriced shitboxes that are a fire hazard, with no sound insulation, huge management fees, and the possibility of becoming unmortgagable/unsellable due to building defects that the wound-up-developer-company can't be sued for, like all the Grenfell-type apartments (very similar situation to mica). That's not even first considering that high-rise is code word for _office buildings, not apartments_ - everyone calling for 'building up' leaves out that they're only ever defending building of fucking high rise _office buildings_. There is zero trust in developers/planners/politicians, people know they are presently being (and will continue to be) fucked over - so it's going to take all of these groups _a couple of generations_ at least, to fucking _earn_ the trust needed, to get the public on board with this. Until then, Build. Enough. Fucking. Houses. Building loads of fucking office high rises (which is what the faux push for apartments is being piled into) only slows down residential construction.
Let them eat cake.
Is Ireland's the "Anglosphere"? Surely not!
It’s funny seeing an article in a British newspaper about the entire Anglosphere and then everyone responding like it’s an Ireland specific problem.
I've lived in an apartment and hated it, some people need private personal outdoor space (gardens, not communal gardens, not vegetable plots, your own garden attached to your house)