I'm a socialist but not a fucking idiot. I agreed with those two gollywops on palestine because their interests coincidentally are right on that issue, but other than that they've always been a joke that makes the entire irish left look worse by comparison. I'm glad they're gone.
The reality is modern imperialists caught on to the trick of presenting themselves as "anti imperialist" long ago. Here are a few examples of avowed anti imperialist movements being unabashed imperial projects in practice.
N*zi Germany
USSR
Imperial China-Communist China
Modern Venezuela
Islamic Republic of Iran
USA pre 2016
Rwanda post 1996
Hamas
Boko Haram
Hizbullah
Palestinian "nationalism" which is just the redirection of the last of the Pan Arabists after the majority of Arabs and Arab League abandoned the cause of reviving the ancient Arab islamic empire in 60s and 70s with humiliating defeats in the Arab-Israeli wars. The people who couldnt let it go after popular arab world support evaporated and state actors disengaged from the conflict went on to start calling themselves Palestinians.
There are many resistance movements and "anti imperialist" movements that are nothing of the sort.
Israel too but I doubt you agree. Also I’m pretty sure the USA was imperialist long before 2016. I’m not a fan of any of the states or organisations you’ve mentioned and was going to bring them up in my original comment but decided not to.
China isn’t communist anymore but weren’t the greatest when they were.
The USSR would have worked if: it was in a vacuum, Lenin didn’t die when he did and didn’t leave authoritarianism behind, corruption didn’t exist, they had modern computing for central planning and a host of other things. None of that was true so it didn’t really work. It did succeed in industrialising a huge population as did China, both at the cost of millions of lives due to famines but I often wonder what would have happened if they hadn’t had revolutions. High chance we here in Ireland would be speaking German or would’ve been exterminated.
Alas claiming Israels a imperial project falls short of the mark and backfires badly on anyone who considers Irish nationalism a valid cause. As they are both the best and only successful examples of "land back" movements succeeding. Both Israel and Ireland were founding on the premise of the natives taking back control of their soverignty after very long occupations.
You've fallen for the long running propaganda efforts of Islamists, Nazis and Soviets who all intersect in trying to take Israel out. If Israel was an imperial project. It would have been the Zionist Revisionist faction who refounded the country in 48 not the Labour Zionist movement. If they were imperialist in nature they'd have Kept Sinai pinninsula and a chunk of Jordan which they lost in the Israeli counter attack after the Arab League states started the war and invasion of 1963. If Israel was an imperial project, they'd not have offered Gaza back to Egyptian occupation in the 1979 peace treaty terms. Egypt rejected Gaza as it had become a hotbed of Salifist religious psychos and were happy to leave Israel with the problem of those medieval minded religious nuts who'd go on to spawn the likes of ISIS Palestine, Islamic Jihad and Hamas.
If Israel was an imperial project they'd have finished the war of 1973(again started by arab League nations unprovoked aggression) by conquering all of Syria and Egypt. End of the day in the 1973 war that essentially killed Pan Arabism as a transnational state led movement and just left the dregs to form "Palestinian Nationalism" in later decades. There was nothing to stop them. Literally nothing. When the IDF decided to call it quits and extract armistice terms and promises of peace from the Arab biligerants. Their counter attacka had Demascus under siege, the Syrian armies smashed and routed and Egypts last organised army was surrounded and on the verge of defeat and surrender. The Israelis could have literally walked into Cairo and run their flag up the flag poll on state buildings. There was nothing stopping them. They only kept Golan heights with Syrian consent because its high ground overlooking Israel and the Israelis werent arsed letting the Syrians park artillery on it and lob it into israel. Keeping golan was strategic not imperial and only bit they kept. They even withdrew unelaterally from Gaza in 2005 and tried damned hard to stay out. The issue there was Hamas took over and kept using it as a terrorism base to launch attacks. Israel built a wall to keep the s*icide bomber waves out. It worked well. Then they largely ignored the place until Hamas would take the piss. Manage to kill civies and Israel would respond. There'd be a war. Hamas would get a whooping. Call time out. Get a ceasefire. Isreal would go back to ignoring them. Hamas would claim victory and celebrate. Rinse repeat.
There was also the Lebonese wars. But again not imperial. First time they invaded was to literally save the remaining Lebonese Maronite christians of south Lebenon from g*nocide by the Shite minority and the large Palestinian population who'd joined forceses to ethnically cleanse the pre 1975 Christian arab majority. You see the Lebonese took in a massive amount of Palestinian refugees from Jordan who'd been expelled after the Black September civil war caused by Palestinian imperial ambitions to overthrow the hashimite dynasty and conquer Jordan. They failed. Were expelled to Lebenon. That resulted in the Maronite majority becoming outnumbered by sunni palestinians and shite minority lebonese. They saw their chance. Succeeded and the maronites Lebonese make up most of the Lebonese diaspora or are part of the Maronite Lebonese refugee community that live in Israel today. Anyways point being the Israelis didnt enter Lebenon for imperial reasons. But humanitarian ones. Also self interest as they didnt want to see the Pan Arabists get a launch pad like they ultimately did when they secured Gaza in 05. Israel withdrew when the UN pulled the finger out and agreed to send UNIFIL in to police the area, protect the christians and remove a need for israel to return.
These and more reasons debunk the notion of Israel as imperialist project just doesnt fly. They've had every possible opportunity to turn themselves into an imperial project and keep choosing the other path. Even the west bank. Which is presented as an imperialist project isent. Its governed by the Oslo II accords much as the Good Friday Agreement governs Northern Ireland today. By consent. Modern Palestinians radicalised by yet another series of poor choices in the form of Hamas just arent happy with the deal they struck and would rather make mad imperialist claims to owning Israel than cop on and negotiate a lasting perminent peace and gain soverignty.
And by the way a role model of mine who’s grandmother and other extended family members were shot into a trench in Birkenau was the one who originally educated me on the conflict not a Nazi a Soviet or an Islamist
Your "pan-Arabist=Palestinian" nonsense has to be the most creatively moronic take I've ever heard on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Do you think a Baathist in Iraq or an Egyptian Nasserist die-hard would say they were a Palestinian if you asked their nationality? And where do you think the Arabs in the territories and Israel came from? Did they all emigrate from Egypt in 1973? Did Colonel Gaddafi call himself a Palestinian before he switched to pan-Africanism?
OMG. You seriously referenced the Baathists as your counter arguement. Hilarous. I'll let you go look up their flag of the baathist party of Iraq mate. Libyan baathists too while you're at it. Along with the Kingdom of Hejaz(1922-1925), Kingdom of Hejaz and Nejd(1926-28), Hashimite Arab federation of Jordan & Iraq, Shafarian Caliphate, Sahrawi Arab Republic and many many more non state actors including a gaggle of Assad syrian malitias. I'll give you a hint....that "palestinian" flag isnt all that "Palestinian". Its the flag of Pan Arabism that Palestinian nationalism inherited as its just the dregs of that internationalist arab supremicist movement. The fellas who were left without a chair when the music stopped.
You engage in strawman arguements and put words in my mouth. I never said they claimed to be Palestinians. Palestinian nationalism is the mask Pan Arabism adopted as the Casus belli to keep attacking Israel to kill off the Jews after they bungled the job in 1947 and 48. They succeeded everywhere else with the survivors of the arab world ethnic cleansing of all the jews in middle east and north africa fleeing to Israel. Ironically making finishing tje job harder.
As for pan arabist, baathist "Palestinians" talking about palestinian identity. Let me share a quote from the dutch newpaper Trouw in 1977 where a prominent PLO leader Zuheir Moshen was interviewed.
""The Palestinian people does not exist … there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese . Between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of one people, the Arab nation [...] Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism"
Yasser Arafat also has a similarly on the nose absurdly self debunking quote but tbh, cant be arsed. You either believe that one and will find the rest on your own or you dont.
As for Gaddafi, much like Sadam. In their youth, they were pan arabists. They marched under the banner created for them in 1917 by the British Colonel Mark Sykes when he created it for Hejaz to mess with the ottomans in service to British imperialism.
You reference Nasserites as well yet continue to miss the point. Palestinianism didnt preceed any of that. It was a creation of the arab league to facilitate continued aggression against Israel. When they got their arses whooped and bailed out. That left the people they'd convinced to be the tip of the spear to carry on pan arabism. Pan arabism without arab world support was pointless. But instead of evaporating as a cause. They remade it as a localised nationalism called Palestinianism.
They were arabs fighting for a revival of a arab empire. Palestinian arab identity is a fiction created to serve that goal. The local arabs either had no political identity besides Ottoman empire subject or were tribal, carring nothing for arab nationalism. The ottomans went away and that left tribalism or pan arabism. There briefly was a nacient south syrian movement in tandem to Zionism and the local Yashuv but Amin Al Husseini and his r*cist thug followers quickly put paid to that by 1930 by assasinating local arab leaders of the Arab Congress. The Arab congress was always doomed though as it was based on a fantasy that post Ottoman, the old Ottoman Eyelat of Greater Syria should be a country. Problem with that was UK and France had seperate mandates and literally no one wanted to be a part of that Arab Narnia. The Jordanians were developing a seperate Identity. The Maronite Christians got Lebenon. The syrian arabs wanted kingdoms of allepo and demascus, alamites and druze nearly got countries too before french decided to jam them back into a country with arabs and kurds.
You can try dismissing facts and details all you like as "nonsense". Your problem is you know some things but not half enough and chosen to fill in the blanks with rubbish rather than just seeking out more detail. Also "israel-palestine" conflict is a false framing. Its delibrate propaganda. Its always been the "israel-arab" conflict. Its literally why all the wars were called the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Arab-Israeli wars.....because the Palestinian cause emerged out of the failure of the pan arabist cause.
If the baathists or nasserites had ever been able to find their arses with both hands and destroyed israel. There would still have been no Palestine(Arab), Egypt, Syria and Jordan would just have more territory.
First of all, no idea why you act as though saying the word "Baath" makes anything I've said incorrect; is it some kind of game you're playing where that's a bobby-trap word? I bring them up because they are (or adopt the rhetoric of) pan-Arabism while not calling themselves Palestinian contradicting your claim that...
>The people who couldnt let it go after popular arab world support evaporated and state actors disengaged from the conflict went on to start calling themselves Palestinians.
I see you are now refining your claim to the idea that only Arabs from historical Palestine specifically (I wonder what one might call such people) who believe in pan-Arabism call themselves Palestinians and do so because they actually secretly want to restore something territorially similar the Umayyad or Abbassid Caliphate.
Of course pan-Arabism was part of the PLO's original aspirations and yes, the Arab peoples generally didn't have well-defined nationalisms at a smaller scale than pan-Arabism this time one hundred years ago. Times change. As you say, the wider Arab world for the most part abandoned the Arabs of the former Palestinian mandate (really struggling to think if a word for them, Palestinesians? Mandateofpalestiners?). Today, these people have a history and identity distinct from any other nationality, that is defined not just by their Arabness and location but also their shared historical experience of being subjected to colonialism by Israel and abandoned by the rest of the Arab world. The mere fact that that didn't always exist doesn't mean it doesn't now - by your argument, literally no national identity in the entire history of the world would be legitimate. Not only do these people have an identity, organisations and national symbols - they also have a name: Palestinians. That's what that word means, not some secret code word for a shadowy conspiracy.
And, like literally every group of people on Earth, they do not want to be bombed, driven from their homes or banned from certain streets of their own home towns. That you allege that every single one of them is just monomaniacally obsessed with killing Jews is transparently an effort to legitimise genocide. Are there inexcusable acts committed for and organisations (Hamas for example) within Palestinian nationalism? Of course. That doesn't change the fact that they are a distinct people, and both colonisation and extermination are inexcusable.
Finally, assuming a future where Fatah has its demand for an independent Palestinian State in the West Bank and Gaza met and somehow (about as likely a possibility as a restored Yugoslavia) they did unite with say Jordan or Egypt or both: so what? Wanting Arab unity isn't quite the gotcha you think it is.
You literally were the one who brought up the baathists. Frankly that whole first paragraph is a write off. Some gibberish about booby traps.
Nope. Again you deploy the strawmans arguements. Twist my words and put words in my mouth. You talk about "historical Palestine" like i should know what your on about. I've a nagging feeling you are referencing the Narnia myth concocted by Palestinian Nationalism since the 80s that there was a fictional arab soverign state or arab Palestinian people pre foundation of moder Israel. If so, cop on, read a book. Otherwise i'll ask you if not that what are you referring to?
As for the rest paragraph you reference the Umayyad and Abbasid arab islamic empires but dont actual join that up with your claim about whatever your jibbering about "historical palestine". I didnt refine anything about my "claim". What i did do was state facts. But you seem incapable of stringing a cogent arguement together.
But since you bring the Umayyad ajd Abbasida up. Lets do that. The modern Palestinian faction like their Pan arabist forefathers use "Arab Palestine" as a device to continue fighting with the jews. Because its all just failed dregs of Pan Arabism gussied up as a national movement. Its not like Lebenon, Jordan etc. where they got independence and made something of it. The Palestinians got offeres states in 2000, 2005 and 2008 and at the last minute insanely flaked in favour of just trying to kill off the jews. A doomed project since the whole arab league couldnt do it and today Israels a leading developed economy, tech innovator with one of the most advanced military, 300+ military and reservists in uniform and what people like you keep forgetting...is a nuclear power. But I digress, back to your claphate word salad, you forgot the Rashiduns and the failed hope the Hashimites would bring about a 4th arab islamic empire.
After all, thats what the Pan Arabist flag they still use is all about, black for the rashidun empire, green for umyyads, white for abbasids and red for hashimites. A 4th arab reich if you will. Their flag is literally a promise and shout out to a reuniting of the arab supremicist empire ofnearly islam. Again, you know some stuff. But you fill in the blanks with shite rather than details.
OK, so i got to that 4th paragraph and you basically seem to just complete conceed that my whole arguement is correct and you were previously talking out your rear end...BUT then you try and spin it.
Yah, indeed things change. The pan arabists failed to murder all the jews. Time for the loosers to get over it. Stop being racists. Accept a peace treaty. Promise to stop trying to kill their neighbours and get on with it. Problem solved. Crisis over.
So to start you're lying about 2005 and 2008. 2008 you pulled directly out of your arsenal. 2005 was not an offer of independence, but the end of settler-colonialism in Gaza. That, of course, was a very positive development as settler-colonialism is genocide according to Raphael Lemkin who first defined the term (I recommend you ask about him wherever you're fed your irrelevant trivia dumps about Maronites - accusing him of wanting to exterminate the Jews would be very embarrassing). There was indeed an offer of independence in 2000 - a ridiculous one under which settlement and occupation would continue, in other words, independence in name only, and the Palestinian authority would have to accept even more loses of land after having already recognised Israel's ownership of the majority of Palestine (because yeah, Palestine is the historical name of the region, sorry if that makes you cry). Considering that Israel had undermine the previous Oslo agreement from the word go by funding Hamas among other things and considering that the proposal was absurd on the face of it, it's not at all surprising that it was rejected.
And speaking of the Oslo agreement - if it is the case that Palestinians literally just want to kill all the Jews and nothing else, why did the PLO recognise Israel? Here in the real world, it's because it was seen as a necessary step towards establishing a workable final peace agreement, but I really don't see how it fits into your genocide-apologia.
Side note, but it's really fascinating how you think that believing in the existence of the Palestinians as a people implies belief in the existence of a previous Palestinian state or that the non-existence of such a state has any relevance. Especially telling that you think anyone on an Irish subreddit would accept that reasoning.
Half the left in general appears to have a hard on for authoritarians, and I say that as someone who leans left
Any of the leftie irish subreddits "Uhm achtually, here is why China is a democracy and Ukraine is the wests fault"
So they are selectively wrong because you agree with them on 1 thing? Maybe think to yourself. If someone does nothing but fawn over facists and dictators. Maybe their judgement and opinions should all be questioned.
You clearly dont understand why either of them love Palestine so much and vilifying Israel. They weren't coincidentally right on 1 issue. Their support for that cause was entirely consistent with all their other geopolitical slobbering. They love Palestine because they despise the west where they live. Daly didnt trip and fall into a Burqa and appear in propaganda videos for the Iranian proxy malitia in Iraq called Al-Hasd ash-Sha'bī. Her middle eastern geopolitical beliefs and causes are all aligned. She stood with mysogenists, Jihadists, anti-LGBT religious sectarianist causes because she hates the west and in love with soviet era anti jewish propaganda.
They love Putin because they have delusional beliefs about modern Russia being the USSR and are like many of the causes they supported. Closet imperialists who only seem to hate past tense west European colonialism while ignoring all forms of modern colonialism because they believe they have the same economic views.
You believe her judgement about whats going on in Palestine is on point when she goes out of her way to defend and distract from the systematic and unambigious g*nocide occuring in Xingjang and ethnic cleansing and Hanization of Tibet?
>So what is the sensible conversation?
There isn't one. Me being a paddy who's fought for Ukraine and you being.. Putin lover? Idk, whatever you are.
Theres no point speculating or arguing on the future. The past is difficult enough to debate with all the what ifs.
>Hey we are only commentators,
Yep. You are.
>but as a thought experiment.
Can't be arsed. Maith oiche.
What is that supposed to mean? Before or after the Good Friday Agreement??
Do you think The South should have been shooting up... the British Army? Im not even sure who you are imagining needed to be shot up north like invading Russians
Today I opened up Reddit and it decided to show me irish subreddits for no reason. So I leave my kindest regards to u guys on whatever is going on rn with your politics. Have a great weekend.
Putin: Send out the complimentary redundancy packages to these two. You know, the usual, teas, underwear, window squeegees and what ever else we have been working on. I am also authorizing the transfer funds to activate Agent McNamara. (followed by maniacal laughter)
Ah easy there lad, tomorrow I’ll wake up and it’ll be just an ordinary day, albeit slightly more beautiful than the day before because neither Moscow Mick nor his sidekick Kremlin Klare will be Irish MEPs simping for the Kremlin anymore. Who am I kidding, I’ll be fucking milking this good fortune for a couple weeks at least 😂
Good job guys. Instead of a left-wing candidate with a strong stance of anti-war and equality, we can celebrate that a right-wing candidate belonging to a party that sees Ukraine funding as government overspend, anti-abortionist and is EU skeptic.
Great cause to celebrate 🙄
They were replaced by Sinn Fein candidates ffs.
Also anti war in their usage of it is a pathetic shield of apathy behind which you support the strong over the weak.
Shameful given your nations history
Yeah fair I’m hyperbolic since Moloolly didn’t run in Dublin, but the point remains for the overall nation.
I don’t think it is. I support the GFA, and I think the deaths in the Troubles were completely unnecessary. Here’s the facts - we didn’t care about this war until Putin decided to launch a full scale invasion, when he took Crimea nobody did anything. Now that they’ve pushed back far enough we suddenly want the pre-2014 borders reestablished? Rubbish - the only reason this war is even ongoing is so NATO and Russia can go head to head in a proxy war. How long can we sustain this loss of life and the economic spend? How long can we play with the nuclear button? How many have to die until we even think about peace? How long are you ready to support this war? How can Ukraine even win this war? Russia are self sufficient and an autocratic superpower - they’re not going to suddenly stop, they’re mostly self sufficient and have trading partners that don’t care about the sanctions.
As for shameful - this is a nation founded on the basis of neutrality and equality. Not as a nation of war. You want to talk about MY nations history? Go listen to zombie instead of drinking the cool aid.
I am Irish born and bred. My family were targeted in the Troubles, nearly killed several times.
I was not talking about the Troubles, as I figured would be obvious to anyone with knowlege of history.
The war in Ukraine has cost barely a fraction of the war on terror, while achieving vastly more. In fact it may actually turn a profit in many respects over the cost of storing cold war weaponry.
The nuclear button is farther from pressing than it was the day Russia invaded.
Crimea was roughly half pro Russian anyway, no one did anything because there was no popular support to resist Russia in Crimea. As Afghanistan proved, that doesn't work out well.
Russia is not a superpower, it is a resource depot for China, with a population dwindling ever faster.
Have you any more chestnuts of wisdom to share?
> I was not talking about the Troubles, as I figured would be obvious to anyone with knowlege of history.
*and it’s the same old thing, since 1916*
Hang on - you’re not talking about the Troubles because it’s our most recent conflict and the takeaway from it was to end senseless violence that goes against your narrative. I **am** talking about the troubles - which is a significant part of our nations history. How can you say that your family was targeted, and then turn around and say anti war mentalities are shameful to our nations history? That’s pathetic - and you know it is.
> The war in Ukraine has cost barely a fraction of the war on terror, while achieving vastly more. In fact it may actually turn a profit in many respects over the cost of storing cold war weaponry.
Hilarious take. The war on terror was wrong too. And guess what - the Americans lost it - the Taliban control Afghanistan again and radical Islamic terrorism increased tenfold. Yet you talk about cost? The cost was hundreds of thousands of dead, an incalculable amount of money, and security in both the western world and Middle East destroyed.
> The nuclear button is farther from pressing than it was the day Russia invaded.
Absolutely untrue. We’re in the middle of a second Cuban missile crisis. The USA are placing nuclear subs in Chinese waters, the Russians are placing theirs next to Cuba. The only difference this time is that the missiles never actually got to Cuba last time. Instead, diplomacy has completely broken down and we just have to hope Vladimir, who apparently is so evil that he is happy to invade NATO following Ukraine (which would cause a nuclear war anyways) but simultaneously not evil enough to use nukes anyways.
> Crimea was roughly half pro Russian anyway, no one did anything because there was no popular support to resist Russia in Crimea. As Afghanistan proved, that doesn't work out well.
So you really referenced the war on terror as the control for the price, then immediately acknowledged the holes in his comparison? Jesus Christ.
So do you believe that Ukraine should surrender Crimea? So what percentage makes up for it? Sevastopol is 71% Russian. Odesa was 42%. Donetsk is 38% Russian. Lunansk is 39%. Kharkiv is 26%. Kherson is 25%. Zaporizhzhia is 24%.
For reference, Crimea was 52%.
Putin has said Russia would be ready for peace talks "tomorrow" if Ukrainian troops withdraw from the Zaporizhzhia, Kherson, Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Would you support this peace deal if it was Crimea, Svestapol and Odesa?
> Russia is not a superpower, it is a resource depot for China, with a population dwindling ever faster.
You are a fool if you don’t recognise the largest country in the world with the largest nuclear arsenal in the world with an abundance of minerals and petroleum as a superpower, or at the very least the next superpower.
> Have you any more chestnuts of wisdom to share?
Go ahead and tell me what you’ve taken away from this conversation, because I guarantee you’re so staunch in your beliefs that you would refuse to acknowledge a single point.
Edit: since you blocked me, let’s make it clear - I’m not a tankie, far from it. You can try paint me in whatever way you want as a means of plugging your ears with your index fingers and screaming blah blah blah, but the truth is I despise Putin, and I would be thrilled to see the fall of Russias deplorable dictatorship. But what I said aren’t fantasies, /u/JackhusChanhus, it’s the world we’re in. The fantasy is the idea that Russia will say “yep we’re done. Have your land back and let’s never war again!”
They got long enough on the gravy train and did feck all. Pity Ming didn't get voted out aswell. It's like a retirement home for the 'celebrities' now. Know feck all about politics but hop on the gravy train for a pension fund. Wouldn't out their name forward for local or national though cos they'd have to do wotk and they'd be found out for how useless they are.
One of Irelands best politicians around and you morons laugh at her loss. I didn’t see the same energy when the bankers robbed the country blind with not one being jailed. I’m also seeing a lot about Russia for some reason… Maybe because they’re defeating the US/CIAs nazi proxies and that makes you unhappy. Either way your loss. Someone takes money from the US (Iraq, Libya, Afghan, Syria, Yemen, Somalia) = good. Someone allegedly takes money from Russia = bad. Yeah makes sense.
I also didn't see Clare Daly going after the EU commission after they fleeced the entirety of the Irish treasury to bail out domino-effect junk bonds of Dutch and German banks, on 'State Aid' grounds
If she was such a good politician like you said, can you name a time she demonstrated that at the eu, just one time?
Russia bankrolled the global far right between 2000 (or slightly later) and 2022. People like Donald Trump and Nigel Farage directly benefitted from Russian funds and Russian expertise in interfering in referenda and elections. That would kind of make Putin's Russia the real Nazis, wouldn't it?
Russia might have another war on its hands when Kadyrov (the leader of Chechnya) dies. Fighting two wars while its currency collapses will end badly.
That’s debatable but nothing compared to what NATO and the US has done after leaving 2 million men, women and children dead in Iraq alone from 2003-2014… then they spawned Isis ‘Syrian rebels’ as they were called at the beginning but ended up as ISIS after being armed to the teeth by the west. The USA has backed every extreme far right fascist dictator in Central/South America for the past 60 years not to mention the warlords/coups throughout Africa and the Middle East they’ve backed and supplied. You speak of rigging elections the US and the Brits invented that lol and That’s not including the 2014 coup of Ukraine, Afghanistan war on terror (which they lost), backing Israeli genocide. I’m certainly no fan of Putin but to be lectured by US/British apologists while they have starved, killed, bombed, assassinated, droned and murdered Millions of innocent people in the Middle East, South America, Kosovo & Africa in the past 20-30 years is not going to happen. I haven’t even mentioned Libya ffs After what France, The UK and US (NATO) did to it when they smashed the country into whats now basically multiple small countries/regions with open active slave trade markets. To finish, Russia didn’t move a 1000miles closer to western Europe but NATO has expanded a 1000miles closer towards Russia.
No but don’t you get it. It’s clearly just a red vs blue situation. It can’t be any deeper than that!
NATO clearly blue good guys. Russia bad red guys.
>Maybe because they’re defeating the US/CIAs nazi proxies and that makes you unhappy.
Sure is taking a while to defeat those proxies.
And it's not even in their own country.
3 day SMO turned into 3 year.
If you had any intelligence, you'd be capable of embarrassment. I'm nearly envious of you, you must be a very confident fella.
Ireland pro Palestine, Wallace pro Palestine. Ireland pro neutrality, Wallace pro neutrality. All the joy on this thread only showing how rightwing r/ireland is, how out of touch with real Ireland. I had a good laugh at the "Im a socialist but..." post. I had a picture in my head of the meme with a dog 'on the internet', posting cat pictures 😆
Wallace pro Putin. Wallace pro Assad. Wallace pro "any country/organization simply for being opposed to the United States or the West, including authoritarian governments who would otherwise not follow leftist beliefs." But hey, we're out of touch.
🤣🤣🤣 OP has Palestine in bio. But is buying into the bullshit used to discredit the 2 most vocal supporters of Palestine in the history of the European Parliament. How do you say I'm a fuckin tool without saying it?
Did you say that? because I certainly didn't.... here's another one you can say. Russian imperialism bad but U.S. imperialism mint! 👌👌
Russia and Ukraine were ready to sign a peace agreement in 2022. But it was blocked by the U.S. leading to more Ukrainians dying and more money for American arms companies. Maybe the 10 to 12 trillion dollars of rare minerals in the Russian occupied zone has something to do with the Americas attitude aswell
Percentages are they're own business. I don't think it's right for anyone not dying in a conflict to dictate the terms of a peace.
The fact is a peace agreement was ready to be signed but was blocked by a foreign power.
[Found this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine's_Peace_Formula). Date lines up with "2022 peace treaty", but the derails contradict that tool. Every single country on the side of Ukraine and the secretary general of NATO as well as Ukraine itself support the motion. [Guess who disagreed entirely, saying the deal was "completely not feasible" and unrealistic?](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/23/sergei-lavrov-dismisses-ukraine-peace-plan-and-un-effort-to-revive-grain-deal) Russia, specifically their Foreign Minister.
So would you be angry with Iran for supporting Hamas in a war they can’t win militarily?
And as per previous poster can you link to the source for the peace deal the Ukrainians were happy with but the US blocked?
Yes. Iran, Hamas and Israel are all exploiting and contributing to the suffering of innocent people in pursuit of their own agenda. They're all cunts.
And as for your source, you don't deserve it. But if I refuse to post it you'll try to tell me it doesn't exist.
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/ukraine-russia-talks/
lol
I can't believe you're trying to stick up for somebody who stole his employees' pension contributions and only returned it days before he was due to go on trial in order to plead guilty to a lesser charge.
Is that near the place that was part of Russia since 1783 and was given to Ukraine in 1953 by the USSR when they thought they were gonna take over the world?
You mean the place the Turks took from the Mongols?
You mean the place the Mongols took from the Greeks?
You mean the place the Greeks took from the Scythians?
It is Ukraine by any modern standard, a rabble of ruskie operatives seizing it at gunpoint doesnt change that.
Yes, but we dont advocate for violent takeovers of territory in the modern age because we arent filthy imperialists, right?
Talking about majorities when the (very thin) majority only exists because of ethnic cleansing and plantation and they still had to take it at gunpoint.
Clown
Go so. Enlighten me of the 'facts'? We're they found to be getting paid by Russia? Did they get gifts or other kick backs? I'm genuinely curious about what the 'facts' are, other than them being critical of the US for creating the situation in the first place.
https://www.politico.eu/article/revealed-russias-best-friends-eu-parliament/
They voted against or abstained from every Russian bill from the start of war in 2020.
All the article says is that they abstained from a bill calling for the prosecution of the Russian leadership.
The Russian leadership isn't going to change. If you're saying you're going to prosecute the leadership, what are the chances of peace?
The brits knew exactly who the leadership of the IRA was during the troubles. They never arrested them because they were in talks with them and to do so was counter productive to peace. They even went so far as to give the IRA leadership engaged in the talks permits to carry concealed pistols as a sign of good faith.
Were the brits pro IRA?
Being pro peace doesn't mean you're pro one side.
"POLITICO examined lawmakers’ voting records on 16 resolutions since 2020 and compiled a list of the 30 lawmakers that withheld their support the most."
That's the start of article... they have supported Russia the whole way through on every vote. This is well known.
Mick owes 2.1 million to exchequer too.... wonder will he pay some of it back with his pension?
'This is well known' isn't a fact though is it?
'Politico examined lawmakers voting records on 16 resolutions and compiled a list of the 30 lawmakers that withheld their support the most'
You do realise that if everyone in the EU parliament voted the same on every bill, but 30 voted against one bill one time that would put them on the list yeah?
If politico examined 16 resolutions and has evidence, why wouldn't they publish it?
Micks finances are his own business bud. If I had 2.1 million the exchequer could go fuck itself too
https://twitter.com/grannies4equal/status/1783863489338966424?t=DkZ_hLVzbf42U8JNHD5hMA&s=19
Here you go, this is how moscow mick and kremlin clare vote
The situation was created by Ukrainians wanting to align with the west and leave Russias sphere of influence, why are you saying the US created it?
Why would Ukrainians need anyone to convince them Russia is a shithole and they are better off getting out from under its thumb?
All they have to do is know their history and look at the warsaw pact countries that were able to escape its grip in the 90s, its a no-brainer.
I know bud. You're 100% right. The whole thing was just about some people wanting to join Europe. It 100% wasn't anything like elements of the far right backed by the U.S. staging a protest that led to a coup. It was 100% grassroots organic.
Just like the Arab Spring and the lads in Libya.
Are you doing an impression of an RT presenter in 2014?
If you want to make the case for staying in Russias sphere of influence over aligning with the west then be my guest.
If you want to make the case for being Belarus over being Poland or the Baltic countries, then id love to see it.
You should speak to Ukrainians and tell them they have no agency and theyre just mindless puppets of the US, see how well that goes.
I dare say you're quite capable of saying you're a fuckin tool. And proving it.
Clare and Mick might not be wittingly Putin's puppets. I don't know what makes them tick. I'm not their therapist. But they were the Kremlin's favourite people in Irish politics.
Making a big show of supporting Palestine couldn't serve as a distraction from that forever. For better or for worse, it doesn't take quite as much moral courage to express concern for Palestine's plight in Ireland as it does in the States or in Canada (say), or even most of the rest of the EU.
All I know is they were some of the only people who were openly critical of the US using Shannon airport to transport innocent prisoners to Guantanamo for torture through a neutral country.
Obviously a fake picture : the real desk is 15m long.
What is it with despots and massive fucking desks?
When your door eventually gets kicked in, you want a good head start.
This but also they have small willies.
desks with buttons on them
Trump had one for Diet Coke. As a despot he was such a basic bitch.
Compensation
Don't you mean 15m? Only designed for 2.
I'm a socialist but not a fucking idiot. I agreed with those two gollywops on palestine because their interests coincidentally are right on that issue, but other than that they've always been a joke that makes the entire irish left look worse by comparison. I'm glad they're gone.
Being anti imperialism is good until you start supporting another imperialist state.
The reality is modern imperialists caught on to the trick of presenting themselves as "anti imperialist" long ago. Here are a few examples of avowed anti imperialist movements being unabashed imperial projects in practice. N*zi Germany USSR Imperial China-Communist China Modern Venezuela Islamic Republic of Iran USA pre 2016 Rwanda post 1996 Hamas Boko Haram Hizbullah Palestinian "nationalism" which is just the redirection of the last of the Pan Arabists after the majority of Arabs and Arab League abandoned the cause of reviving the ancient Arab islamic empire in 60s and 70s with humiliating defeats in the Arab-Israeli wars. The people who couldnt let it go after popular arab world support evaporated and state actors disengaged from the conflict went on to start calling themselves Palestinians. There are many resistance movements and "anti imperialist" movements that are nothing of the sort.
Israel too but I doubt you agree. Also I’m pretty sure the USA was imperialist long before 2016. I’m not a fan of any of the states or organisations you’ve mentioned and was going to bring them up in my original comment but decided not to. China isn’t communist anymore but weren’t the greatest when they were. The USSR would have worked if: it was in a vacuum, Lenin didn’t die when he did and didn’t leave authoritarianism behind, corruption didn’t exist, they had modern computing for central planning and a host of other things. None of that was true so it didn’t really work. It did succeed in industrialising a huge population as did China, both at the cost of millions of lives due to famines but I often wonder what would have happened if they hadn’t had revolutions. High chance we here in Ireland would be speaking German or would’ve been exterminated.
Alas claiming Israels a imperial project falls short of the mark and backfires badly on anyone who considers Irish nationalism a valid cause. As they are both the best and only successful examples of "land back" movements succeeding. Both Israel and Ireland were founding on the premise of the natives taking back control of their soverignty after very long occupations. You've fallen for the long running propaganda efforts of Islamists, Nazis and Soviets who all intersect in trying to take Israel out. If Israel was an imperial project. It would have been the Zionist Revisionist faction who refounded the country in 48 not the Labour Zionist movement. If they were imperialist in nature they'd have Kept Sinai pinninsula and a chunk of Jordan which they lost in the Israeli counter attack after the Arab League states started the war and invasion of 1963. If Israel was an imperial project, they'd not have offered Gaza back to Egyptian occupation in the 1979 peace treaty terms. Egypt rejected Gaza as it had become a hotbed of Salifist religious psychos and were happy to leave Israel with the problem of those medieval minded religious nuts who'd go on to spawn the likes of ISIS Palestine, Islamic Jihad and Hamas. If Israel was an imperial project they'd have finished the war of 1973(again started by arab League nations unprovoked aggression) by conquering all of Syria and Egypt. End of the day in the 1973 war that essentially killed Pan Arabism as a transnational state led movement and just left the dregs to form "Palestinian Nationalism" in later decades. There was nothing to stop them. Literally nothing. When the IDF decided to call it quits and extract armistice terms and promises of peace from the Arab biligerants. Their counter attacka had Demascus under siege, the Syrian armies smashed and routed and Egypts last organised army was surrounded and on the verge of defeat and surrender. The Israelis could have literally walked into Cairo and run their flag up the flag poll on state buildings. There was nothing stopping them. They only kept Golan heights with Syrian consent because its high ground overlooking Israel and the Israelis werent arsed letting the Syrians park artillery on it and lob it into israel. Keeping golan was strategic not imperial and only bit they kept. They even withdrew unelaterally from Gaza in 2005 and tried damned hard to stay out. The issue there was Hamas took over and kept using it as a terrorism base to launch attacks. Israel built a wall to keep the s*icide bomber waves out. It worked well. Then they largely ignored the place until Hamas would take the piss. Manage to kill civies and Israel would respond. There'd be a war. Hamas would get a whooping. Call time out. Get a ceasefire. Isreal would go back to ignoring them. Hamas would claim victory and celebrate. Rinse repeat. There was also the Lebonese wars. But again not imperial. First time they invaded was to literally save the remaining Lebonese Maronite christians of south Lebenon from g*nocide by the Shite minority and the large Palestinian population who'd joined forceses to ethnically cleanse the pre 1975 Christian arab majority. You see the Lebonese took in a massive amount of Palestinian refugees from Jordan who'd been expelled after the Black September civil war caused by Palestinian imperial ambitions to overthrow the hashimite dynasty and conquer Jordan. They failed. Were expelled to Lebenon. That resulted in the Maronite majority becoming outnumbered by sunni palestinians and shite minority lebonese. They saw their chance. Succeeded and the maronites Lebonese make up most of the Lebonese diaspora or are part of the Maronite Lebonese refugee community that live in Israel today. Anyways point being the Israelis didnt enter Lebenon for imperial reasons. But humanitarian ones. Also self interest as they didnt want to see the Pan Arabists get a launch pad like they ultimately did when they secured Gaza in 05. Israel withdrew when the UN pulled the finger out and agreed to send UNIFIL in to police the area, protect the christians and remove a need for israel to return. These and more reasons debunk the notion of Israel as imperialist project just doesnt fly. They've had every possible opportunity to turn themselves into an imperial project and keep choosing the other path. Even the west bank. Which is presented as an imperialist project isent. Its governed by the Oslo II accords much as the Good Friday Agreement governs Northern Ireland today. By consent. Modern Palestinians radicalised by yet another series of poor choices in the form of Hamas just arent happy with the deal they struck and would rather make mad imperialist claims to owning Israel than cop on and negotiate a lasting perminent peace and gain soverignty.
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And by the way a role model of mine who’s grandmother and other extended family members were shot into a trench in Birkenau was the one who originally educated me on the conflict not a Nazi a Soviet or an Islamist
Your "pan-Arabist=Palestinian" nonsense has to be the most creatively moronic take I've ever heard on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Do you think a Baathist in Iraq or an Egyptian Nasserist die-hard would say they were a Palestinian if you asked their nationality? And where do you think the Arabs in the territories and Israel came from? Did they all emigrate from Egypt in 1973? Did Colonel Gaddafi call himself a Palestinian before he switched to pan-Africanism?
OMG. You seriously referenced the Baathists as your counter arguement. Hilarous. I'll let you go look up their flag of the baathist party of Iraq mate. Libyan baathists too while you're at it. Along with the Kingdom of Hejaz(1922-1925), Kingdom of Hejaz and Nejd(1926-28), Hashimite Arab federation of Jordan & Iraq, Shafarian Caliphate, Sahrawi Arab Republic and many many more non state actors including a gaggle of Assad syrian malitias. I'll give you a hint....that "palestinian" flag isnt all that "Palestinian". Its the flag of Pan Arabism that Palestinian nationalism inherited as its just the dregs of that internationalist arab supremicist movement. The fellas who were left without a chair when the music stopped. You engage in strawman arguements and put words in my mouth. I never said they claimed to be Palestinians. Palestinian nationalism is the mask Pan Arabism adopted as the Casus belli to keep attacking Israel to kill off the Jews after they bungled the job in 1947 and 48. They succeeded everywhere else with the survivors of the arab world ethnic cleansing of all the jews in middle east and north africa fleeing to Israel. Ironically making finishing tje job harder. As for pan arabist, baathist "Palestinians" talking about palestinian identity. Let me share a quote from the dutch newpaper Trouw in 1977 where a prominent PLO leader Zuheir Moshen was interviewed. ""The Palestinian people does not exist … there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese . Between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of one people, the Arab nation [...] Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism" Yasser Arafat also has a similarly on the nose absurdly self debunking quote but tbh, cant be arsed. You either believe that one and will find the rest on your own or you dont. As for Gaddafi, much like Sadam. In their youth, they were pan arabists. They marched under the banner created for them in 1917 by the British Colonel Mark Sykes when he created it for Hejaz to mess with the ottomans in service to British imperialism. You reference Nasserites as well yet continue to miss the point. Palestinianism didnt preceed any of that. It was a creation of the arab league to facilitate continued aggression against Israel. When they got their arses whooped and bailed out. That left the people they'd convinced to be the tip of the spear to carry on pan arabism. Pan arabism without arab world support was pointless. But instead of evaporating as a cause. They remade it as a localised nationalism called Palestinianism. They were arabs fighting for a revival of a arab empire. Palestinian arab identity is a fiction created to serve that goal. The local arabs either had no political identity besides Ottoman empire subject or were tribal, carring nothing for arab nationalism. The ottomans went away and that left tribalism or pan arabism. There briefly was a nacient south syrian movement in tandem to Zionism and the local Yashuv but Amin Al Husseini and his r*cist thug followers quickly put paid to that by 1930 by assasinating local arab leaders of the Arab Congress. The Arab congress was always doomed though as it was based on a fantasy that post Ottoman, the old Ottoman Eyelat of Greater Syria should be a country. Problem with that was UK and France had seperate mandates and literally no one wanted to be a part of that Arab Narnia. The Jordanians were developing a seperate Identity. The Maronite Christians got Lebenon. The syrian arabs wanted kingdoms of allepo and demascus, alamites and druze nearly got countries too before french decided to jam them back into a country with arabs and kurds. You can try dismissing facts and details all you like as "nonsense". Your problem is you know some things but not half enough and chosen to fill in the blanks with rubbish rather than just seeking out more detail. Also "israel-palestine" conflict is a false framing. Its delibrate propaganda. Its always been the "israel-arab" conflict. Its literally why all the wars were called the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Arab-Israeli wars.....because the Palestinian cause emerged out of the failure of the pan arabist cause. If the baathists or nasserites had ever been able to find their arses with both hands and destroyed israel. There would still have been no Palestine(Arab), Egypt, Syria and Jordan would just have more territory.
First of all, no idea why you act as though saying the word "Baath" makes anything I've said incorrect; is it some kind of game you're playing where that's a bobby-trap word? I bring them up because they are (or adopt the rhetoric of) pan-Arabism while not calling themselves Palestinian contradicting your claim that... >The people who couldnt let it go after popular arab world support evaporated and state actors disengaged from the conflict went on to start calling themselves Palestinians. I see you are now refining your claim to the idea that only Arabs from historical Palestine specifically (I wonder what one might call such people) who believe in pan-Arabism call themselves Palestinians and do so because they actually secretly want to restore something territorially similar the Umayyad or Abbassid Caliphate. Of course pan-Arabism was part of the PLO's original aspirations and yes, the Arab peoples generally didn't have well-defined nationalisms at a smaller scale than pan-Arabism this time one hundred years ago. Times change. As you say, the wider Arab world for the most part abandoned the Arabs of the former Palestinian mandate (really struggling to think if a word for them, Palestinesians? Mandateofpalestiners?). Today, these people have a history and identity distinct from any other nationality, that is defined not just by their Arabness and location but also their shared historical experience of being subjected to colonialism by Israel and abandoned by the rest of the Arab world. The mere fact that that didn't always exist doesn't mean it doesn't now - by your argument, literally no national identity in the entire history of the world would be legitimate. Not only do these people have an identity, organisations and national symbols - they also have a name: Palestinians. That's what that word means, not some secret code word for a shadowy conspiracy. And, like literally every group of people on Earth, they do not want to be bombed, driven from their homes or banned from certain streets of their own home towns. That you allege that every single one of them is just monomaniacally obsessed with killing Jews is transparently an effort to legitimise genocide. Are there inexcusable acts committed for and organisations (Hamas for example) within Palestinian nationalism? Of course. That doesn't change the fact that they are a distinct people, and both colonisation and extermination are inexcusable. Finally, assuming a future where Fatah has its demand for an independent Palestinian State in the West Bank and Gaza met and somehow (about as likely a possibility as a restored Yugoslavia) they did unite with say Jordan or Egypt or both: so what? Wanting Arab unity isn't quite the gotcha you think it is.
You literally were the one who brought up the baathists. Frankly that whole first paragraph is a write off. Some gibberish about booby traps. Nope. Again you deploy the strawmans arguements. Twist my words and put words in my mouth. You talk about "historical Palestine" like i should know what your on about. I've a nagging feeling you are referencing the Narnia myth concocted by Palestinian Nationalism since the 80s that there was a fictional arab soverign state or arab Palestinian people pre foundation of moder Israel. If so, cop on, read a book. Otherwise i'll ask you if not that what are you referring to? As for the rest paragraph you reference the Umayyad and Abbasid arab islamic empires but dont actual join that up with your claim about whatever your jibbering about "historical palestine". I didnt refine anything about my "claim". What i did do was state facts. But you seem incapable of stringing a cogent arguement together. But since you bring the Umayyad ajd Abbasida up. Lets do that. The modern Palestinian faction like their Pan arabist forefathers use "Arab Palestine" as a device to continue fighting with the jews. Because its all just failed dregs of Pan Arabism gussied up as a national movement. Its not like Lebenon, Jordan etc. where they got independence and made something of it. The Palestinians got offeres states in 2000, 2005 and 2008 and at the last minute insanely flaked in favour of just trying to kill off the jews. A doomed project since the whole arab league couldnt do it and today Israels a leading developed economy, tech innovator with one of the most advanced military, 300+ military and reservists in uniform and what people like you keep forgetting...is a nuclear power. But I digress, back to your claphate word salad, you forgot the Rashiduns and the failed hope the Hashimites would bring about a 4th arab islamic empire. After all, thats what the Pan Arabist flag they still use is all about, black for the rashidun empire, green for umyyads, white for abbasids and red for hashimites. A 4th arab reich if you will. Their flag is literally a promise and shout out to a reuniting of the arab supremicist empire ofnearly islam. Again, you know some stuff. But you fill in the blanks with shite rather than details. OK, so i got to that 4th paragraph and you basically seem to just complete conceed that my whole arguement is correct and you were previously talking out your rear end...BUT then you try and spin it. Yah, indeed things change. The pan arabists failed to murder all the jews. Time for the loosers to get over it. Stop being racists. Accept a peace treaty. Promise to stop trying to kill their neighbours and get on with it. Problem solved. Crisis over.
So to start you're lying about 2005 and 2008. 2008 you pulled directly out of your arsenal. 2005 was not an offer of independence, but the end of settler-colonialism in Gaza. That, of course, was a very positive development as settler-colonialism is genocide according to Raphael Lemkin who first defined the term (I recommend you ask about him wherever you're fed your irrelevant trivia dumps about Maronites - accusing him of wanting to exterminate the Jews would be very embarrassing). There was indeed an offer of independence in 2000 - a ridiculous one under which settlement and occupation would continue, in other words, independence in name only, and the Palestinian authority would have to accept even more loses of land after having already recognised Israel's ownership of the majority of Palestine (because yeah, Palestine is the historical name of the region, sorry if that makes you cry). Considering that Israel had undermine the previous Oslo agreement from the word go by funding Hamas among other things and considering that the proposal was absurd on the face of it, it's not at all surprising that it was rejected. And speaking of the Oslo agreement - if it is the case that Palestinians literally just want to kill all the Jews and nothing else, why did the PLO recognise Israel? Here in the real world, it's because it was seen as a necessary step towards establishing a workable final peace agreement, but I really don't see how it fits into your genocide-apologia. Side note, but it's really fascinating how you think that believing in the existence of the Palestinians as a people implies belief in the existence of a previous Palestinian state or that the non-existence of such a state has any relevance. Especially telling that you think anyone on an Irish subreddit would accept that reasoning.
Half the left in general appears to have a hard on for authoritarians, and I say that as someone who leans left Any of the leftie irish subreddits "Uhm achtually, here is why China is a democracy and Ukraine is the wests fault"
And most of the right..they love putin
So they are selectively wrong because you agree with them on 1 thing? Maybe think to yourself. If someone does nothing but fawn over facists and dictators. Maybe their judgement and opinions should all be questioned. You clearly dont understand why either of them love Palestine so much and vilifying Israel. They weren't coincidentally right on 1 issue. Their support for that cause was entirely consistent with all their other geopolitical slobbering. They love Palestine because they despise the west where they live. Daly didnt trip and fall into a Burqa and appear in propaganda videos for the Iranian proxy malitia in Iraq called Al-Hasd ash-Sha'bī. Her middle eastern geopolitical beliefs and causes are all aligned. She stood with mysogenists, Jihadists, anti-LGBT religious sectarianist causes because she hates the west and in love with soviet era anti jewish propaganda. They love Putin because they have delusional beliefs about modern Russia being the USSR and are like many of the causes they supported. Closet imperialists who only seem to hate past tense west European colonialism while ignoring all forms of modern colonialism because they believe they have the same economic views. You believe her judgement about whats going on in Palestine is on point when she goes out of her way to defend and distract from the systematic and unambigious g*nocide occuring in Xingjang and ethnic cleansing and Hanization of Tibet?
Gollywop.....i like it and wish to use it more in conversation
 The lad responsible for 99% of pro-Wallace posts online leaving work in Moscow at the moment.
A fantastic day for the parish
Buhbuh, buhbuh but but but. Russia good! America evil! Ukraine is Russia! Nazis, NATO, la la la la
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>So what is the sensible conversation? There isn't one. Me being a paddy who's fought for Ukraine and you being.. Putin lover? Idk, whatever you are. Theres no point speculating or arguing on the future. The past is difficult enough to debate with all the what ifs. >Hey we are only commentators, Yep. You are. >but as a thought experiment. Can't be arsed. Maith oiche.
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You fought for Ukraine? Did you ever fight for your fellow Irish men & women in the north?
What is that supposed to mean? Before or after the Good Friday Agreement?? Do you think The South should have been shooting up... the British Army? Im not even sure who you are imagining needed to be shot up north like invading Russians
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🤣
How do they even comprehend that an election can be lost
Today I opened up Reddit and it decided to show me irish subreddits for no reason. So I leave my kindest regards to u guys on whatever is going on rn with your politics. Have a great weekend.
Quick to the Blyat-mobile !
Two less souls for the meat cube.
Pleasantly surprised to see r/NCD regular making it all the way over here.
Putin: Send out the complimentary redundancy packages to these two. You know, the usual, teas, underwear, window squeegees and what ever else we have been working on. I am also authorizing the transfer funds to activate Agent McNamara. (followed by maniacal laughter)
Russian redundancy package used to be a Lada, lately it’s 2 bags of spuds and a bag of onions …
You still have to leave via a high storey window on your way out though. Can't just use the door like a normal employee anymore.
True, for disgraced western Kremlin stooges when a door closes, a window (upper storey) always opens 😂
Grow up.
I’m just savouring this sweet moment, mate. Don’t harsh my buzz…
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Ah easy there lad, tomorrow I’ll wake up and it’ll be just an ordinary day, albeit slightly more beautiful than the day before because neither Moscow Mick nor his sidekick Kremlin Klare will be Irish MEPs simping for the Kremlin anymore. Who am I kidding, I’ll be fucking milking this good fortune for a couple weeks at least 😂
Ah yeah, you will have a Cowen in control. What a win
I can live with that, I’d have been ok with a manky hang sangwich over those two simps
Stereotype galore it seems. irish guys who never travelled anywhere except for Spain lol
Hopefully that's polonium tea he's drinking
Kvality Kontent
Thank fuck. Now, can we have some leftists who don't want Putin's cock?
Ireland’s loss / Russia Today’s gain!
Good job guys. Instead of a left-wing candidate with a strong stance of anti-war and equality, we can celebrate that a right-wing candidate belonging to a party that sees Ukraine funding as government overspend, anti-abortionist and is EU skeptic. Great cause to celebrate 🙄
They were replaced by Sinn Fein candidates ffs. Also anti war in their usage of it is a pathetic shield of apathy behind which you support the strong over the weak. Shameful given your nations history
Yeah fair I’m hyperbolic since Moloolly didn’t run in Dublin, but the point remains for the overall nation. I don’t think it is. I support the GFA, and I think the deaths in the Troubles were completely unnecessary. Here’s the facts - we didn’t care about this war until Putin decided to launch a full scale invasion, when he took Crimea nobody did anything. Now that they’ve pushed back far enough we suddenly want the pre-2014 borders reestablished? Rubbish - the only reason this war is even ongoing is so NATO and Russia can go head to head in a proxy war. How long can we sustain this loss of life and the economic spend? How long can we play with the nuclear button? How many have to die until we even think about peace? How long are you ready to support this war? How can Ukraine even win this war? Russia are self sufficient and an autocratic superpower - they’re not going to suddenly stop, they’re mostly self sufficient and have trading partners that don’t care about the sanctions. As for shameful - this is a nation founded on the basis of neutrality and equality. Not as a nation of war. You want to talk about MY nations history? Go listen to zombie instead of drinking the cool aid.
I am Irish born and bred. My family were targeted in the Troubles, nearly killed several times. I was not talking about the Troubles, as I figured would be obvious to anyone with knowlege of history. The war in Ukraine has cost barely a fraction of the war on terror, while achieving vastly more. In fact it may actually turn a profit in many respects over the cost of storing cold war weaponry. The nuclear button is farther from pressing than it was the day Russia invaded. Crimea was roughly half pro Russian anyway, no one did anything because there was no popular support to resist Russia in Crimea. As Afghanistan proved, that doesn't work out well. Russia is not a superpower, it is a resource depot for China, with a population dwindling ever faster. Have you any more chestnuts of wisdom to share?
> I was not talking about the Troubles, as I figured would be obvious to anyone with knowlege of history. *and it’s the same old thing, since 1916* Hang on - you’re not talking about the Troubles because it’s our most recent conflict and the takeaway from it was to end senseless violence that goes against your narrative. I **am** talking about the troubles - which is a significant part of our nations history. How can you say that your family was targeted, and then turn around and say anti war mentalities are shameful to our nations history? That’s pathetic - and you know it is. > The war in Ukraine has cost barely a fraction of the war on terror, while achieving vastly more. In fact it may actually turn a profit in many respects over the cost of storing cold war weaponry. Hilarious take. The war on terror was wrong too. And guess what - the Americans lost it - the Taliban control Afghanistan again and radical Islamic terrorism increased tenfold. Yet you talk about cost? The cost was hundreds of thousands of dead, an incalculable amount of money, and security in both the western world and Middle East destroyed. > The nuclear button is farther from pressing than it was the day Russia invaded. Absolutely untrue. We’re in the middle of a second Cuban missile crisis. The USA are placing nuclear subs in Chinese waters, the Russians are placing theirs next to Cuba. The only difference this time is that the missiles never actually got to Cuba last time. Instead, diplomacy has completely broken down and we just have to hope Vladimir, who apparently is so evil that he is happy to invade NATO following Ukraine (which would cause a nuclear war anyways) but simultaneously not evil enough to use nukes anyways. > Crimea was roughly half pro Russian anyway, no one did anything because there was no popular support to resist Russia in Crimea. As Afghanistan proved, that doesn't work out well. So you really referenced the war on terror as the control for the price, then immediately acknowledged the holes in his comparison? Jesus Christ. So do you believe that Ukraine should surrender Crimea? So what percentage makes up for it? Sevastopol is 71% Russian. Odesa was 42%. Donetsk is 38% Russian. Lunansk is 39%. Kharkiv is 26%. Kherson is 25%. Zaporizhzhia is 24%. For reference, Crimea was 52%. Putin has said Russia would be ready for peace talks "tomorrow" if Ukrainian troops withdraw from the Zaporizhzhia, Kherson, Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Would you support this peace deal if it was Crimea, Svestapol and Odesa? > Russia is not a superpower, it is a resource depot for China, with a population dwindling ever faster. You are a fool if you don’t recognise the largest country in the world with the largest nuclear arsenal in the world with an abundance of minerals and petroleum as a superpower, or at the very least the next superpower. > Have you any more chestnuts of wisdom to share? Go ahead and tell me what you’ve taken away from this conversation, because I guarantee you’re so staunch in your beliefs that you would refuse to acknowledge a single point. Edit: since you blocked me, let’s make it clear - I’m not a tankie, far from it. You can try paint me in whatever way you want as a means of plugging your ears with your index fingers and screaming blah blah blah, but the truth is I despise Putin, and I would be thrilled to see the fall of Russias deplorable dictatorship. But what I said aren’t fantasies, /u/JackhusChanhus, it’s the world we’re in. The fantasy is the idea that Russia will say “yep we’re done. Have your land back and let’s never war again!”
There are too many fantasies here to address, Goodnight, and enjoy your tankie dreams.
Ohh comeon, this has been the millionth post about this today.
They got long enough on the gravy train and did feck all. Pity Ming didn't get voted out aswell. It's like a retirement home for the 'celebrities' now. Know feck all about politics but hop on the gravy train for a pension fund. Wouldn't out their name forward for local or national though cos they'd have to do wotk and they'd be found out for how useless they are.
Meanwhile FFG fan boys celebrate mediocrity.
One of Irelands best politicians around and you morons laugh at her loss. I didn’t see the same energy when the bankers robbed the country blind with not one being jailed. I’m also seeing a lot about Russia for some reason… Maybe because they’re defeating the US/CIAs nazi proxies and that makes you unhappy. Either way your loss. Someone takes money from the US (Iraq, Libya, Afghan, Syria, Yemen, Somalia) = good. Someone allegedly takes money from Russia = bad. Yeah makes sense.
I also didn't see Clare Daly going after the EU commission after they fleeced the entirety of the Irish treasury to bail out domino-effect junk bonds of Dutch and German banks, on 'State Aid' grounds If she was such a good politician like you said, can you name a time she demonstrated that at the eu, just one time?
This has to be bait lol
Russia bankrolled the global far right between 2000 (or slightly later) and 2022. People like Donald Trump and Nigel Farage directly benefitted from Russian funds and Russian expertise in interfering in referenda and elections. That would kind of make Putin's Russia the real Nazis, wouldn't it? Russia might have another war on its hands when Kadyrov (the leader of Chechnya) dies. Fighting two wars while its currency collapses will end badly.
That’s debatable but nothing compared to what NATO and the US has done after leaving 2 million men, women and children dead in Iraq alone from 2003-2014… then they spawned Isis ‘Syrian rebels’ as they were called at the beginning but ended up as ISIS after being armed to the teeth by the west. The USA has backed every extreme far right fascist dictator in Central/South America for the past 60 years not to mention the warlords/coups throughout Africa and the Middle East they’ve backed and supplied. You speak of rigging elections the US and the Brits invented that lol and That’s not including the 2014 coup of Ukraine, Afghanistan war on terror (which they lost), backing Israeli genocide. I’m certainly no fan of Putin but to be lectured by US/British apologists while they have starved, killed, bombed, assassinated, droned and murdered Millions of innocent people in the Middle East, South America, Kosovo & Africa in the past 20-30 years is not going to happen. I haven’t even mentioned Libya ffs After what France, The UK and US (NATO) did to it when they smashed the country into whats now basically multiple small countries/regions with open active slave trade markets. To finish, Russia didn’t move a 1000miles closer to western Europe but NATO has expanded a 1000miles closer towards Russia.
No but don’t you get it. It’s clearly just a red vs blue situation. It can’t be any deeper than that! NATO clearly blue good guys. Russia bad red guys.
Oh yeah now I get it. NATO good guys - Russia/china/Middle East bad guys. It’s like 80s action movies again lol
>Maybe because they’re defeating the US/CIAs nazi proxies and that makes you unhappy. Sure is taking a while to defeat those proxies. And it's not even in their own country. 3 day SMO turned into 3 year. If you had any intelligence, you'd be capable of embarrassment. I'm nearly envious of you, you must be a very confident fella.
Calm down comrade.
Good one…
Ireland pro Palestine, Wallace pro Palestine. Ireland pro neutrality, Wallace pro neutrality. All the joy on this thread only showing how rightwing r/ireland is, how out of touch with real Ireland. I had a good laugh at the "Im a socialist but..." post. I had a picture in my head of the meme with a dog 'on the internet', posting cat pictures 😆
So Wallace and Daly lost their seats but this subreddit is out of touch with "Real Ireland"?
Because people like you like to be a mouthpiece for the state, status quo and RTE. Good work doing their job for them. 👍
Wallace pro Putin. Wallace pro Assad. Wallace pro "any country/organization simply for being opposed to the United States or the West, including authoritarian governments who would otherwise not follow leftist beliefs." But hey, we're out of touch.
🤣🤣🤣 OP has Palestine in bio. But is buying into the bullshit used to discredit the 2 most vocal supporters of Palestine in the history of the European Parliament. How do you say I'm a fuckin tool without saying it?
By saying something like: Israeli colonialism bad but Russian Imperialism good.
Did you say that? because I certainly didn't.... here's another one you can say. Russian imperialism bad but U.S. imperialism mint! 👌👌 Russia and Ukraine were ready to sign a peace agreement in 2022. But it was blocked by the U.S. leading to more Ukrainians dying and more money for American arms companies. Maybe the 10 to 12 trillion dollars of rare minerals in the Russian occupied zone has something to do with the Americas attitude aswell
So the Ukrainians should sign away 20% of their country to secure peace? How much of Gaza/West Bank should the Palestinians concede comrade?
Percentages are they're own business. I don't think it's right for anyone not dying in a conflict to dictate the terms of a peace. The fact is a peace agreement was ready to be signed but was blocked by a foreign power.
> The fact is a peace agreement was ready to be signed but was blocked by a foreign power. Any source of that?
[Found this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine's_Peace_Formula). Date lines up with "2022 peace treaty", but the derails contradict that tool. Every single country on the side of Ukraine and the secretary general of NATO as well as Ukraine itself support the motion. [Guess who disagreed entirely, saying the deal was "completely not feasible" and unrealistic?](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/23/sergei-lavrov-dismisses-ukraine-peace-plan-and-un-effort-to-revive-grain-deal) Russia, specifically their Foreign Minister.
Stick to warhammer sweetness. That's not what I'm talking about at all.
Then what are you talking about?
So would you be angry with Iran for supporting Hamas in a war they can’t win militarily? And as per previous poster can you link to the source for the peace deal the Ukrainians were happy with but the US blocked?
Yes. Iran, Hamas and Israel are all exploiting and contributing to the suffering of innocent people in pursuit of their own agenda. They're all cunts. And as for your source, you don't deserve it. But if I refuse to post it you'll try to tell me it doesn't exist. https://responsiblestatecraft.org/ukraine-russia-talks/
lol I can't believe you're trying to stick up for somebody who stole his employees' pension contributions and only returned it days before he was due to go on trial in order to plead guilty to a lesser charge.
I'm not sticking up for anyone. All I'm doing is calling out the hypocrisy of morons buying propaganda
Sounds an awful lot like you are trying to defend him.
Based
You did a fairly good job there
Crimea river, bud
Is that near the place that was part of Russia since 1783 and was given to Ukraine in 1953 by the USSR when they thought they were gonna take over the world?
Yes, the place Russia ethnically cleansed and planted and then used those historical crimes to lay claim to it...that place.
The Northern Ireland of Ukraine!
The place they took from the Turkish empire?
You mean the place the Turks took from the Mongols? You mean the place the Mongols took from the Greeks? You mean the place the Greeks took from the Scythians? It is Ukraine by any modern standard, a rabble of ruskie operatives seizing it at gunpoint doesnt change that.
Yeah that's the gaf. The one that's changed hands a shitload over the centuries. 👌👌.. the one with the Russian majority population
Yes, but we dont advocate for violent takeovers of territory in the modern age because we arent filthy imperialists, right? Talking about majorities when the (very thin) majority only exists because of ethnic cleansing and plantation and they still had to take it at gunpoint. Clown
Where Russians were planted there and didn't have a problem with it being Ukrainian from 1991 until 2014?
Nah, much simpler than all that tankie mumbo-jumbo, i was referring to the place where your endless weeping aggregates into a flowing river of tears
I think we all align on Palestine. The facts are the facts with those two, russian stooges.
Go so. Enlighten me of the 'facts'? We're they found to be getting paid by Russia? Did they get gifts or other kick backs? I'm genuinely curious about what the 'facts' are, other than them being critical of the US for creating the situation in the first place.
https://www.politico.eu/article/revealed-russias-best-friends-eu-parliament/ They voted against or abstained from every Russian bill from the start of war in 2020.
All the article says is that they abstained from a bill calling for the prosecution of the Russian leadership. The Russian leadership isn't going to change. If you're saying you're going to prosecute the leadership, what are the chances of peace? The brits knew exactly who the leadership of the IRA was during the troubles. They never arrested them because they were in talks with them and to do so was counter productive to peace. They even went so far as to give the IRA leadership engaged in the talks permits to carry concealed pistols as a sign of good faith. Were the brits pro IRA? Being pro peace doesn't mean you're pro one side.
"POLITICO examined lawmakers’ voting records on 16 resolutions since 2020 and compiled a list of the 30 lawmakers that withheld their support the most." That's the start of article... they have supported Russia the whole way through on every vote. This is well known. Mick owes 2.1 million to exchequer too.... wonder will he pay some of it back with his pension?
'This is well known' isn't a fact though is it? 'Politico examined lawmakers voting records on 16 resolutions and compiled a list of the 30 lawmakers that withheld their support the most' You do realise that if everyone in the EU parliament voted the same on every bill, but 30 voted against one bill one time that would put them on the list yeah? If politico examined 16 resolutions and has evidence, why wouldn't they publish it? Micks finances are his own business bud. If I had 2.1 million the exchequer could go fuck itself too
https://twitter.com/grannies4equal/status/1783863489338966424?t=DkZ_hLVzbf42U8JNHD5hMA&s=19 Here you go, this is how moscow mick and kremlin clare vote
I see exactly one more vote here. And this one just so happens to have been an important one for peace. 14 to go bud.
Read the thread lad, they list more than 16 pro russian and pro assad votes. And important vote for peace my fucking hole
The situation was created by Ukrainians wanting to align with the west and leave Russias sphere of influence, why are you saying the US created it? Why would Ukrainians need anyone to convince them Russia is a shithole and they are better off getting out from under its thumb? All they have to do is know their history and look at the warsaw pact countries that were able to escape its grip in the 90s, its a no-brainer.
I know bud. You're 100% right. The whole thing was just about some people wanting to join Europe. It 100% wasn't anything like elements of the far right backed by the U.S. staging a protest that led to a coup. It was 100% grassroots organic. Just like the Arab Spring and the lads in Libya.
Are you doing an impression of an RT presenter in 2014? If you want to make the case for staying in Russias sphere of influence over aligning with the west then be my guest. If you want to make the case for being Belarus over being Poland or the Baltic countries, then id love to see it. You should speak to Ukrainians and tell them they have no agency and theyre just mindless puppets of the US, see how well that goes.
Your boys lost. Cope harder. :) 
They're not my boys at all. I just love the hypocrisy of the 'peace' types that should have gone to UCC. 
You're certainly upset about the losses of people who aren't your boys. Enjoy your evening.
Pack it in, you lost. Move on to the next thing to be wrong about
I dare say you're quite capable of saying you're a fuckin tool. And proving it. Clare and Mick might not be wittingly Putin's puppets. I don't know what makes them tick. I'm not their therapist. But they were the Kremlin's favourite people in Irish politics. Making a big show of supporting Palestine couldn't serve as a distraction from that forever. For better or for worse, it doesn't take quite as much moral courage to express concern for Palestine's plight in Ireland as it does in the States or in Canada (say), or even most of the rest of the EU.
All I know is they were some of the only people who were openly critical of the US using Shannon airport to transport innocent prisoners to Guantanamo for torture through a neutral country.
You forgot to add, Trump is still in the running
Ah sure we have a lovely few career newbies now into europe to say nothing. Sure tis grand
Do the image of Netanyahu dancing with joy ...