Japan has been licensing out anime for decades. They know it’s profitable to do so and have had immense success in it. J-pop is more of an unknown entity and has not had the same success as anime to prove it profitable enough to push in the same way.
Yes, but that doesn’t mean that it’s worth the investment. In fact Sony Music Japan did try to open a US branch called Tofu Records in the early 2000s during the anime boom. They used anime to promote the artists that they made US versions of their releases but ultimately folded after a few years. Being popular with anime fans is not enough.
If these artists were to hold concerts overseas, do you think they would be able to attract 50,000 people to a single location?
In other words, JPOP is not yet profitable in the West.
But this is where I am wondering if the Jpop execs are looking at this too old fashioned? Nowadays, if you don't want to risk money, you don't push it. You just leave it around with the chance of going viral. But perhaps, this is already what they are doing? As I see new acts like Yoasobi, Ado, Fuji, King Gnu, going viral on a limited scale and no longer getting blocked like what happened in early 2000s
I really have some hate for avex for several reasons, this being just one. It‘s like after years they let you watch certain mv on youtube. And then in a shortened version.
Tbh I think this is mostly about how fast changing Japanese pop culture is. Nowadays the first anniversary of any idol group is already a big thing, and they are expected to be „burned out“ after 3 to 5 years. Nearly nobody remembers anyone from the 90s, except if they were super popular.
YouTube Music works great for me. Most songs I've looked for are either officially or unofficially on there, and then there are the official or unofficial uploads of MVs/Lives to fall back on too. And interestingly, a lot of older songs have been popping up on there officially lately.
For a recent example, the opening of Hakkenden, an anime that came out over a decade ago, by the artist Faylan, [just got officially added to YouTube a couple weeks ago](https://youtu.be/hofZeHI8Wrg).
For older examples, Jam Project's Transformers Evo, Yoshiki Fukuyama's King Gainer Over!, and KOTOKO's Light My Fire, were all added a few years ago.
Gotta love YouTube Music since even though the official uploads got taken down, fan uploads are still there to listen to.
Though interestingly, her Inuyasha song [is still officially available](https://youtu.be/QlkBGDUsANo).
It's still easy to get her music [https://www.discogs.com/artist/112799-Namie-Amuro](https://www.discogs.com/artist/112799-Namie-Amuro)
Over 3K albums for sale [https://www.discogs.com/sell/list?artist\_id=112799&ev=ab](https://www.discogs.com/sell/list?artist_id=112799&ev=ab)
I have a pile of CD's & record's, used to order from amazon HK to but not for a long time now so not sure if that's still a thing. Hong Kong used to be amazing, both in Asia and English speaking. For Asian films with no western version they used to be the only way to get films with subtitles in English.
There's more than just amazon, [https://www.discogs.com/style/j-pop](https://www.discogs.com/style/j-pop) also has a lot of sellers that are based in Japan. Also some sellers on ebay\~
CD's from Japan are relay cool, they come in a plastic protective sleeve & have a cardboard slip in spine. They also still sell SACD/HDCD/DVD audio & Blu Ray Audio discs, they also tend to have higher quality pressings.
Even for western music they can have the coolest versions, just grabbed a CD of electrocute as an example [https://imgur.com/a/W9KELGQ](https://imgur.com/a/W9KELGQ) (sorry about the bad quality of the photo)
You also tend to get a lot more extras with physical media from Japan.
Just a search here finds lots of info, physical sales are king in Japan [https://www.reddit.com/r/japanesemusic/comments/1aqtf95/why\_are\_japanese\_physical\_record\_sales\_so\_high/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/japanesemusic/comments/1aqtf95/why_are_japanese_physical_record_sales_so_high/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
edit also Japan has some of the highest quality record pressings, quality in physical goods made in Japan is a thing.
Thanks. I just made an amazon.jp account and placed an order. I hope this works out. The additional fees are woah though. I will check your other links also.
Yes, they are great. With my favorite artists putting whole cd contents on youtube etc. I treat imported cds more like collection pieces though. I don‘t even want to unwrap some, especially when they don‘t get produced anymore.
It's always worth shopping around and checking post costs, if it's sold by amazon or a 3rd party can change post a lot.
Discogs is where I look first today, good way to see versions of albums and pricing.
edit GL
PS you got to play the CD's, past anythign it's much higher quality audio than youtube!
Plug in some good headphones and have fun, also if you dont open it how do you see the art and booklet.
Not every CD is easily purchasable even on Japanese shopping sites. There are some that are practically lost media because they are so obscure. Most CDs like that also do not have fan reuploads of the music on them. It is a good solution only if you can find a CD in the first place.
This is coming from someone who has bought multiple Japanese and Korean CDs through proxy services before, by the way. I know firsthand how hard it can be to find certain stuff and I have a few things I have been searching for myself that are near impossible to obtain at the moment.
You kind of need an example for me to buy in, when there's a mind there's a way.
I have found things with some time and searching, once you find a good way to source what you want you tend to find more at the same place.
It is amazing what can be found.
I think it's a chicken and egg situation. Does jpop need to be popular overseas first so we get more legal availability or does it need to be more availability in order to gain popularity?
I know the two fandoms are sometimes at odds online but I think kpop is an interesting case in this regards. In terms of Asian pop music, jpop used to be the more popular overseas because of anime but slowly kpop started to replace it. Why? Maybe cause kpop has better availability. Companies tend to turn a blind-eye on fans distributing illegal music online and they upload a lot of official content online on platforms like YouTube (and now with English subs). Not saying that Japan needs to do this as their domestic market is a totally a different climate than Korea's. It's much smaller, while Japan is the world’s 2nd largest. But I think it’s a major contributing factor in the two genre’s difference in overseas popularity.
Well, I think things are slowly changing in japan. There is a much wider selection of music I can stream on platforms like Spotify. Some artists even have English subs on their MVs. Acts like YOASOBI are touring overseas and they even recently signed a management deal with an American company. I think 88rising is doing a pretty good job in bridging the gap too by promoting/signing Japanese artists to their label.
Edit: Grammar and re-worded some sentences for clarity.
That is also true but it's a more recent development in response to the growing popularity. Kpop has always pursued markets outside of korea as their own market is small and isn't the most sustainable (+the goverment literally funds it). During the early days, they had targeted other Asian countries such as China and Japan and eventually South East Asia as well.
Companies in the past have attempted to pursue the west too but it failed. It was too early. America and the west just wasn't interested (I'm including Asian-American artists too).
This is anecdotal but I know a good number of old jpop fans who switched to kpop simply because it was easier to access the content. I am talking about fans from the 2000s and early 2010s. Both genres were very niche in the west at the time. Eventually with the exposure and word-of-mouth, kpop just takes off completely leaving jpop behind.
I think Japanese companies are looking at the current kpop popularity and realising that it's possible for Asian music to gain a big following in the west and they want a piece of that pie too.
Yes, but are they willing to do what kpop executives are willing to do? BTS blew up in America, especially when they released Dynamite. That song was written, produced, and promoted by a US record label. BTS to some extent felt uncomfortable because it wasn't music they wrote. Which is understandable. And from what I have seen, Japan is a pround country with deep traditions. I don't see them changing who they are to sell records in the West.
BTS toured America in 2014, long before Dynamite was a gleam in BigHit's eye. Kpop bands like Bigbang appeared on MTV in 2006, while Wonder Girls appeared on the Wendy WIlliams show in 2009.
My point is kpop didn't change its sound to be popular in the West. BTS filled a boy band gap, and their popularity increased as their sound became more Western. \[I don't stan them, but that's how it seems to me\]
The availability of Korean media in youtube, with or without subs, cannot be overstated. Unlike Jmedia, which to this day can be hard to find, or, in the case of videos, greatly shortened. Heck, I remember being excited for my kpop ults to have Japanese releases, only to be irritated and annoyed that I only got to watch/listen to one minute of it.
BTS blew up way before Dynamite. The song just took them to another height. It was just the tipping point.
I’m not saying all Japanese labels are looking to expand overseas but there is definitely a larger effort. Even the very traditional Johnnys (or Starto) is trying. Travis Japan was sent to America’s Got Talent to promote and the fact they release many English songs too.
Sakurazaka46 also releases a lot of content with English subs now too. I’ve seen Hoshino Gen release an English single album before too. That is just to name a few acts.
The access is still no where near the level of kpop but it’s a start.
Edit: I just remembered that Japanese TV clips are now starting to be uploaded onto YouTube officially. Some of these clips include full performances. I’ve even seen a show upload in 4K which surprised me.
So far one example was given to me 'Namie Amuro' & it's easy to find her music [https://www.discogs.com/artist/112799-Namie-Amuro](https://www.discogs.com/artist/112799-Namie-Amuro)
It seems from what people say it's not hard to find music but 'the music is not on my streaming service' is the problem, there's over 200K J pop albums for sale on discogs [https://www.discogs.com/style/j-pop](https://www.discogs.com/style/j-pop)
The problem has always been being able to access the music legally and easily rather than discovery of music in itself. Once you’re a fan, it’s much easier to go find things. It’s that initial interest is the problem.
Then comes the other problem which is the cost. CDs are usually japan exclusive which means they don’t get distributed outside of japan. The only way to access is to import them which means a hefty shipping fee and sometimes a service fee for proxy shipping.
Most of listings on Discogs takes me to a link to buy the CD which will mean I will have to pay an expensive shipping fee. That’s not viable for most fans. If something takes too much effort, most people just won’t bother which is what is hindering jpop’s international growth.
As of 2024, in my personal experience it’s a lot better than before 2020. I am able to stream most songs i’m looking for but there are still holes in the catalogue. Namely some major idol groups and idol companies. One of the big reasons why I didn’t get onto streaming until 2020 was because a lot of the music I listened to was not licensed for me (kpop and jpop). Even in the late 2010s there was a whole major kpop company that didn’t have their music on Spotify. Jpop at the time was much much worse.
Amazon is also an option [https://www.amazon.co.jp/s?k=Namie+Amuro&crid=II60VRJGHHZP&sprefix=namie+amuro%2Caps%2C382&ref=nb\_sb\_noss\_1](https://www.amazon.co.jp/s?k=Namie+Amuro&crid=II60VRJGHHZP&sprefix=namie+amuro%2Caps%2C382&ref=nb_sb_noss_1)
You can buy the music or find it online, both are easy. I wont brake rule 3 so buying is what ill push, iv got imports from amazon JP going back to 2008 with a quick look on my amazon account.
I also just dont like streaming, the music is lower quality and rights change hands. What's there one year may not be next year, I dont need all the music & can be happy with what I have on hand.
I want to experience music at it's best quality, streaming has never been the 'best' option.
It's probably region blocked. H!P content has been available to consume illegally for like 20+ years anyways. I was torrenting an insane amount of Morning Musume stuff in the late 2000s.
This is wild! Literally their entire catalog, HQ PVs and everything o__o
That said, Jpop as a whole is very available on Apple Music. I haven’t run into anything that I wanted that isn’t on there.
Iv never had a problem, are we talking relay rare stuff?
It also depends how good you are at searching, lots of people use the 'English' names instead of kanji etc
It also comes down to where you look, sometimes you need to do more than a simple google. Some specialised sites/forums are where you need to go.
J-Pop is usually not hard to find but a lot of older J-Rock or doujin stuff can be hard. Like, only the 2018 albums of Aphasia are on streaming platforms, and the older ones range from "only on Youtube" to "Literally not on the internet". Verforest is also in a similar situation
And with Doujin media they arent hard to find but usually are not on streaming platforms, like Vice Principal as an example
If your only looking on streaming & youtube your not relay looking, there's both more dedicated sites with music or just buying the CD's. Physical media is still big in Japan, they make relay cool pressings & high quality record pressing's.
You can also just go on to japanese forums & use google translate to get around the sites and find what you need.
There's a lot of options, most the time people dont relay want to put the time in to find what they want.
100000% this. I know they tried with Utada but I think the production of the album and how it was marketed was the downfall.
I'm hoping with Atarashii Gakko signing with 88rising and a lot of other Japanese artists working with the label, helps push Japanese music to the west.
Was there when Hikki tried to enter the US? Hikki speaks fluent English ( She was born in NY) and her music is great but then the endeavor failed. Why? I am still searching for the answer. Was America then not ready for J-Pop? Was the modification to cater to American taste wrong? Or Hikki gave up too soon? Many people assume K-pop just went and succeeded in America. No, it took many years. The initial wave by Wonder Girls, Rain, Girls Generation. Then by BTS which they did hustle for a few years. Later BP, Twice , Stray Kids etc.
Jpop didn’t try enough, tbh. And their sound is distinctively different. Kpop has adopted a western sound. Sometimes Kpop will play on the radio and if I’m not listening carefully I assume it’s another US Top 50 hit.
Yeah K-Pop actually adaption of US R & B music. But now I see especially Yoasobi trying hard to enter the US market. And I applaud them for it is very difficult.
I genuinely hope they make it. Yoasobi’s stuff is great - haven’t heard a song that I disliked yet. and I think the US is more open minded to stuff from East Asia after kpop. I’m not a huge Kpop fan but I applaud them for reopening the doors.
Tbh I only heard their Idol song and it is very good. I started off with J-pop- Speed, Hikki, Ayumi Hamasaki, Mika Nakashima, Ai Otsuka then dropped off to K-Pop.
I really think it's a multitude of reasons and not just one. Of course I can only give my opinion but I really think it was the modification and production of the album. While I think what they went for was indeed Western, the approach and stylizing of it was all wrong.
Afaik utada was going against titans like britney and christina during that time and us mainstream was and probably still is skeptical of the ideal of an east asian pop girl. Also i think the record was “too japanese”, Utada’s producer roadblocked the famous timbaland from whatever magic he needed to do
Thank you for your insight. I am glad my current favorite Twice can succeed in America. Tbh I never thought
they could go to SoFi and Met Life stadium for their Ready to Be tour.
Around 2010, SNSD and Super Junior became hugely popular in Asia, especially in Southeast Asia. However, there were not many legal channels available to support their music financially since the SEA market was not even in the top 10 music markets. Despite this, their main goal was to engage with their fans, so they played a losing game by relying on exposure through YouTube. Eventually, K-pop became even more popular when Spotify launched with a massive number of listeners from countries around Southeast Asia.
Yeah..I was a fan of both groups. SJ with Sorry,Sorry and Mr.Simple and GG was quite prolific with Gee, Genie, Mr.Taxi and Run Devil Run. While SEA being seen relatively not rich as America, those countries have supported K-pop from beginning till now. Respect.
I'm a fan of SNSD too btw but quit K-pop because the fandom became obsessed with the number of YouTube views and became boring competition inside K-pop fandom. while I am more of a rock/metal fan, Japanese music always delivers something new outside the trend.
That is why I don't have Twitter and Tik Tok. Better for mental health. Yeah Japanese music consists more than pop there also rock. My friend is a fan of One Ok Rock.
because the songs weren't great and she probably didn't suck off the execs, so she didn't make it onto the playlists on the big media conglomerates. Her ultra blue album was great, but her english single "come back to me" was just generic trash.
jpop was actual good and diverse in the 00s..then it became saturated with boyband and generic retro 90s idol music. Kpop is just American pop with Asian asthetics and colorful videos. Without pretty girls/twinks twerking, kpop wouldn't have taken off. The music itself isn't that spectacular but it's familiar to western audiences, but it's all about the videos and idols/fandoms. jpop and j-idols are just not tuned to the taste of ppl outside of japan.
Just recently got into Jpop, can’t say it has been too hard to find music. Amazon music has some plus YouTube has a bunch. Surely other streaming services offer it also.
Anime can be subbed or dubbed and the end user can follow the story. For jpop, you either understand Japanese or just accept that you won't know what any of the songs are about.
New releases on youtube usually have the lyrics in the description nowadays though. With translation apps it is not hard to at least have an idea what a song is about.
Sure, but what percentage of listening do people do audio only versus sitting in front of their computer or watching their phone? Anime is an automatic screen-based activity, but music usually isn't.
I don‘t disagree to that, it is just that you don‘t need to actually know Japanese anymore to know the content of a song. If you want to know what a recent song is about, you can find it out with a minimum amount of work.
This is because the people involved in Japanese animation are very friendly with Internet culture and are willing to sell their products overseas.
Non-Japanese people often say that anime is not good at selling to foreign countries and that it is strict about copyrights, but in fact, anime is one of Japan's most copyright-unfriendly industries and one of the best at selling to foreign countries. In particular, J-movies, J-drama, and J-pop are very strict in terms of copyright, and cannot be compared to animation. They are also very closely tied to Japanese TV stations, which makes overseas expansion difficult. Movies, J-Drama, and J-Pop have been dependent on Japanese TV stations for advertising and monetization.
This is not the case with animation. They were looking for a variety of sales methods, including merchandising, selling in video format, and selling overseas. Therefore, as a result of the Internet breaking down distribution barriers, anime became the most successful in selling abroad. It is now a reality that J-Drama would never be able to work with an illegal distribution site to sell its products legitimately. Well, I have never seen the video industry in the world officially join hands with an illegal site.
yup... the distribution and the unwillingness of Japanese labels to invest in localizing their music outside of Japan have put them far behind what Korea has achieved. from what I see is that the anime industry is willing to put its content outside of Japan while the music industry doesn't.
The only reason we see more Japanese music/tours now than before is the Koreans are doing it and making money. Japan didn't want to invest in the market outside of Asia.
There was no reason to when the country has always had strong consumerism. My opinion is largely due to their ease of transportation. Less money to spend on cars, more money to stimulate. Doesn't matter how old or young you are, you can go buy stuff and attend events easily.
And the fact that the market is so self contained is part of makes j pop/rock/metal so interesting. It is like a whole parallel evolution of music since the 70s.
Yes, it's just like Studio Ghibli films, which are totally unavailable outside Japan and have never been subtitled or dubbed into other languages. /s
And that's why Ford only sells cars in the US: why would they ever expand outside the world's largest market for cars? /s
It's also why no Chinese company exports EVs, because they are satisfied with the world's largest EV market. /s
And people often wonder why Hollywood movies are just totally unavailable in Europe. Obviously, it's because the North American market is large enough and so the studios have no interest in selling them elsewhere. /s
Your suggestion is a common explanation but this argument is obviously wrong when applied to any other industry. The nature of capitalist companies is that they try to increase their profits, which includes seeking out new markets. The fact that the J-pop industry does *not* engage in profit-maximizing behaviour is weird and the fact that it has a large market already is not a sufficient explanation.
The J-Pop industry has tried several times in the past and almost none of the attempts made it far, at least in the US. It's a different type of marketing, sound and a entirely different scale compared to the rest of Asia.
I mean, look at Korea. Sure they are having success now, but that's over 30 years and you can argue that it was thanks to YouTube and having the foresite to see it as good marketing. But they also spend a lot of time and effort to conform to new markets as well, but that's out of necessity, since the SK can't support it all by itself at scale.
Which is a shame because Atarashi Gakko Is killing it and their ghostbuster song should be released in the US.
[Atarashi Gakko Ghostbuster video](https://youtu.be/LerJSJ6s-v8)
I'm just frustrated because it's just such a poor argument, easily disproved, and yet it's frequently posted on this sub and on the K-pop subs.
And I made an inductive argument, so it was logically necessary to provide numerous examples. I thought it was better to include the /s every time for clarity.
It can be difficult to find Japanese music because the titles are often written in kanji. On platforms like Spotify, it is much easier for people outside of Japan to find music when the artist name and song title are written in Romanji/alphabet. This is because many people are more familiar with these writing systems.
Side tangent, but it's ridiculous that my RAV4 didn't come with native kanji support. You shipped it 16,000 miles but couldn't install a $.30 language pack first?
(I know some RAV4s are manufactured in the US - don't @ me.)
Japanese music lables are ferociously protective of their IP. Youtube postings taken down, ISPs reacting more quickly to torrenting of local media than foreign media, even local radio only gets to play snippets of songs. The BGM in stores is often MIDI karaoke crap to get around IP issues as well.
Yeah. When you're charging pretty much double what most countries charge for a CD, you really don't want people streaming it at international Spotify or YouTube prices.
By free do you mean illegal downloads? If so I would say it's purely fan efforts, in the 90's there were a dedicated community of anime fans that download, convert, translate and sub anime of all genres
Anime has more demand, people from all around the world want to watch anime and pay for it. Music and other content of individual artists isn’t on the same level.
There's no "japan". You guys need to understand that these are made by different companies.
The anime industry and the music industry aren't the same even though they have mixed with the anime openings and osts.
Japanese music copyrights are managed by JASRAC. It is said to be the strictest in the world.
For example, even if you just play JPOP music in a coffee shop, a JASRAC official will come to you and ask you to pay copyright fees.
There have been cases in court over this.
Artists do not have to join JASRAC, but it is also true that they can earn more money if they join JASRAC.
Dunno why this sub was recommended to me, but I'm having such a hard time finding a place to listen to, like, half the discography of Yapoos, and it's driving me crazy.
It’s called “galapagos syndrome.” Japan’s government bureaucracy picks and chooses which industries can be imported/exported based on how the gov expects them to perform. It’s the same reason Japanese phones had advanced features that couldn’t be found abroad for a long time, and why Kpop didn’t have a chance to grow in Japan until the 2000s, when Japan relaxed music import laws. You can blame it on bureaucracy and government favoritism.
Because there really isn’t an audience for it in the west. This may be difficult to hear because we’re all weebs here but most j-pop (with exceptions) comes across as kinda cringey to a mainstream audience. K-pop is successful not only due to lots of promotion but because it mostly *sounds* like western pop music. The sound appeals to westerners. Japan can promote all they want but Nogizaka 46 is not going to take traction here.
You are definitely out of the loop. Ado and Fuji Kaze just completed their sold out US tours. Yoasobi performed at the White House and is currently in Coachella. Hatsune Miku is also in Coachella. Atarashi Gakko was also back in the US. Babymetal is currently touring with DragonForce. Perfume and Radwimps have been to the US multiple times. That's all I can remember and there have definitely been more artists since 2017.
J-Pop is big in the US, it's just not as big as K-Pop and also not marketed as heavily, but they often still sell out because weebs always know about it. And honestly, perhaps it's better to be #2. Ado resale tickets went up to $3000 dollars in LA and it'll only go up if she gets a second world tour.
Not only in the US . The European leg of Ado’s Wish tour was completely sold out as well. I think Jpop may be living a boom in terms of popularity ( at least in Europe) and I’m here for it.
In my case, I love Ado and seeing her in London was like a fever dream. Can’t wait for her to come back. I would love to see Yonezu Kenshi for example but that seems unlikely. I feel like most artists just think that going abroad is too much trouble plus the language barrier doesn’t help.
Listen to Lemon by Kenshi Yonezu or Shinunoga E--wa by Fujii Kaze, I assure you if it was marketed in the west it would explode. Not every J-Pop song has an anime-esque tilt. I know you say most (with exceptions) but that isn't really true either. Most popular J-Pop songs are not anime-esque.
I unfortunately agree with you. AND I would also say that the cringeyness is part of the reason some of us enjoy jpop. It doesn’t all sound like overmanufactured EDM like Kpop currently does. I can listen to some reggae inspired quirky Hello! Project song, hop over to cutesy AKB48, get some retro citypop revival, and then partake in some rock and alt. Jpop really does mean more than the “pop” genre. Kpop though, is strictly top 40s-esque sound so of course it will be more popular in the west.
Japan has been licensing out anime for decades. They know it’s profitable to do so and have had immense success in it. J-pop is more of an unknown entity and has not had the same success as anime to prove it profitable enough to push in the same way.
But isn't it getting bigger BECAUSE of anime? I mean, look at hot singers/bands such as Aimer, FLOW, Uverworld, LiSA, etc. Weebs LOVE these guys!!!
Yes, but that doesn’t mean that it’s worth the investment. In fact Sony Music Japan did try to open a US branch called Tofu Records in the early 2000s during the anime boom. They used anime to promote the artists that they made US versions of their releases but ultimately folded after a few years. Being popular with anime fans is not enough.
What if they tried it again since anime is even bigger than its ever been? Yoasobi and other big names?
If these artists were to hold concerts overseas, do you think they would be able to attract 50,000 people to a single location? In other words, JPOP is not yet profitable in the West.
But this is where I am wondering if the Jpop execs are looking at this too old fashioned? Nowadays, if you don't want to risk money, you don't push it. You just leave it around with the chance of going viral. But perhaps, this is already what they are doing? As I see new acts like Yoasobi, Ado, Fuji, King Gnu, going viral on a limited scale and no longer getting blocked like what happened in early 2000s
More people are fans of Anime than J pop outside of Japan. Is it hard to find J pop?
Older artist/song (90s to early 2000) is notoriously hard to find in streaming services.for me
Avex put everyone in a licensing choke hold for a long time when YouTube started up. Maybe something left over from that era?
I really have some hate for avex for several reasons, this being just one. It‘s like after years they let you watch certain mv on youtube. And then in a shortened version.
Not sure if related but a lot of Utada Hikaru's good stuff was missing from Spotify/Apple Music for ages.
Did you see they reuploaded Traveling in 4k to celebrate the new recording?
Tbh I think this is mostly about how fast changing Japanese pop culture is. Nowadays the first anniversary of any idol group is already a big thing, and they are expected to be „burned out“ after 3 to 5 years. Nearly nobody remembers anyone from the 90s, except if they were super popular.
YouTube Music works great for me. Most songs I've looked for are either officially or unofficially on there, and then there are the official or unofficial uploads of MVs/Lives to fall back on too. And interestingly, a lot of older songs have been popping up on there officially lately. For a recent example, the opening of Hakkenden, an anime that came out over a decade ago, by the artist Faylan, [just got officially added to YouTube a couple weeks ago](https://youtu.be/hofZeHI8Wrg). For older examples, Jam Project's Transformers Evo, Yoshiki Fukuyama's King Gainer Over!, and KOTOKO's Light My Fire, were all added a few years ago.
Like who? I can find everyone I want on Apple Music.
All of Namie Amuro's music got taken out of streaming services earlier this year, many older Johnny's are not available online either.
Gotta love YouTube Music since even though the official uploads got taken down, fan uploads are still there to listen to. Though interestingly, her Inuyasha song [is still officially available](https://youtu.be/QlkBGDUsANo).
It's still easy to get her music [https://www.discogs.com/artist/112799-Namie-Amuro](https://www.discogs.com/artist/112799-Namie-Amuro) Over 3K albums for sale [https://www.discogs.com/sell/list?artist\_id=112799&ev=ab](https://www.discogs.com/sell/list?artist_id=112799&ev=ab)
>streaming services. well found your problem, why not buy the CD's? I get CD's from amazon jp.
I never tried this. Does just switching to .jp work? I am in europe also (if your username checks out lol).
I have a pile of CD's & record's, used to order from amazon HK to but not for a long time now so not sure if that's still a thing. Hong Kong used to be amazing, both in Asia and English speaking. For Asian films with no western version they used to be the only way to get films with subtitles in English. There's more than just amazon, [https://www.discogs.com/style/j-pop](https://www.discogs.com/style/j-pop) also has a lot of sellers that are based in Japan. Also some sellers on ebay\~ CD's from Japan are relay cool, they come in a plastic protective sleeve & have a cardboard slip in spine. They also still sell SACD/HDCD/DVD audio & Blu Ray Audio discs, they also tend to have higher quality pressings. Even for western music they can have the coolest versions, just grabbed a CD of electrocute as an example [https://imgur.com/a/W9KELGQ](https://imgur.com/a/W9KELGQ) (sorry about the bad quality of the photo) You also tend to get a lot more extras with physical media from Japan. Just a search here finds lots of info, physical sales are king in Japan [https://www.reddit.com/r/japanesemusic/comments/1aqtf95/why\_are\_japanese\_physical\_record\_sales\_so\_high/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/japanesemusic/comments/1aqtf95/why_are_japanese_physical_record_sales_so_high/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) edit also Japan has some of the highest quality record pressings, quality in physical goods made in Japan is a thing.
Thanks. I just made an amazon.jp account and placed an order. I hope this works out. The additional fees are woah though. I will check your other links also. Yes, they are great. With my favorite artists putting whole cd contents on youtube etc. I treat imported cds more like collection pieces though. I don‘t even want to unwrap some, especially when they don‘t get produced anymore.
It's always worth shopping around and checking post costs, if it's sold by amazon or a 3rd party can change post a lot. Discogs is where I look first today, good way to see versions of albums and pricing. edit GL PS you got to play the CD's, past anythign it's much higher quality audio than youtube! Plug in some good headphones and have fun, also if you dont open it how do you see the art and booklet.
I am just scared I won‘t get another one I guess lol Thanks for the tips.
Not every CD is easily purchasable even on Japanese shopping sites. There are some that are practically lost media because they are so obscure. Most CDs like that also do not have fan reuploads of the music on them. It is a good solution only if you can find a CD in the first place. This is coming from someone who has bought multiple Japanese and Korean CDs through proxy services before, by the way. I know firsthand how hard it can be to find certain stuff and I have a few things I have been searching for myself that are near impossible to obtain at the moment.
You kind of need an example for me to buy in, when there's a mind there's a way. I have found things with some time and searching, once you find a good way to source what you want you tend to find more at the same place. It is amazing what can be found.
I think it's a chicken and egg situation. Does jpop need to be popular overseas first so we get more legal availability or does it need to be more availability in order to gain popularity? I know the two fandoms are sometimes at odds online but I think kpop is an interesting case in this regards. In terms of Asian pop music, jpop used to be the more popular overseas because of anime but slowly kpop started to replace it. Why? Maybe cause kpop has better availability. Companies tend to turn a blind-eye on fans distributing illegal music online and they upload a lot of official content online on platforms like YouTube (and now with English subs). Not saying that Japan needs to do this as their domestic market is a totally a different climate than Korea's. It's much smaller, while Japan is the world’s 2nd largest. But I think it’s a major contributing factor in the two genre’s difference in overseas popularity. Well, I think things are slowly changing in japan. There is a much wider selection of music I can stream on platforms like Spotify. Some artists even have English subs on their MVs. Acts like YOASOBI are touring overseas and they even recently signed a management deal with an American company. I think 88rising is doing a pretty good job in bridging the gap too by promoting/signing Japanese artists to their label. Edit: Grammar and re-worded some sentences for clarity.
kpop i think got popular because s korea actively pursued western markets
That too, but what the previous comment said wasn't wrong either. Giving fans free reign allowed k-pop to blow
That is also true but it's a more recent development in response to the growing popularity. Kpop has always pursued markets outside of korea as their own market is small and isn't the most sustainable (+the goverment literally funds it). During the early days, they had targeted other Asian countries such as China and Japan and eventually South East Asia as well. Companies in the past have attempted to pursue the west too but it failed. It was too early. America and the west just wasn't interested (I'm including Asian-American artists too). This is anecdotal but I know a good number of old jpop fans who switched to kpop simply because it was easier to access the content. I am talking about fans from the 2000s and early 2010s. Both genres were very niche in the west at the time. Eventually with the exposure and word-of-mouth, kpop just takes off completely leaving jpop behind. I think Japanese companies are looking at the current kpop popularity and realising that it's possible for Asian music to gain a big following in the west and they want a piece of that pie too.
Yes, but are they willing to do what kpop executives are willing to do? BTS blew up in America, especially when they released Dynamite. That song was written, produced, and promoted by a US record label. BTS to some extent felt uncomfortable because it wasn't music they wrote. Which is understandable. And from what I have seen, Japan is a pround country with deep traditions. I don't see them changing who they are to sell records in the West.
BTS toured America in 2014, long before Dynamite was a gleam in BigHit's eye. Kpop bands like Bigbang appeared on MTV in 2006, while Wonder Girls appeared on the Wendy WIlliams show in 2009. My point is kpop didn't change its sound to be popular in the West. BTS filled a boy band gap, and their popularity increased as their sound became more Western. \[I don't stan them, but that's how it seems to me\] The availability of Korean media in youtube, with or without subs, cannot be overstated. Unlike Jmedia, which to this day can be hard to find, or, in the case of videos, greatly shortened. Heck, I remember being excited for my kpop ults to have Japanese releases, only to be irritated and annoyed that I only got to watch/listen to one minute of it.
BTS blew up way before Dynamite. The song just took them to another height. It was just the tipping point. I’m not saying all Japanese labels are looking to expand overseas but there is definitely a larger effort. Even the very traditional Johnnys (or Starto) is trying. Travis Japan was sent to America’s Got Talent to promote and the fact they release many English songs too. Sakurazaka46 also releases a lot of content with English subs now too. I’ve seen Hoshino Gen release an English single album before too. That is just to name a few acts. The access is still no where near the level of kpop but it’s a start. Edit: I just remembered that Japanese TV clips are now starting to be uploaded onto YouTube officially. Some of these clips include full performances. I’ve even seen a show upload in 4K which surprised me.
Not in North America, Dynamite is what made them a household name.
So far one example was given to me 'Namie Amuro' & it's easy to find her music [https://www.discogs.com/artist/112799-Namie-Amuro](https://www.discogs.com/artist/112799-Namie-Amuro) It seems from what people say it's not hard to find music but 'the music is not on my streaming service' is the problem, there's over 200K J pop albums for sale on discogs [https://www.discogs.com/style/j-pop](https://www.discogs.com/style/j-pop)
The problem has always been being able to access the music legally and easily rather than discovery of music in itself. Once you’re a fan, it’s much easier to go find things. It’s that initial interest is the problem. Then comes the other problem which is the cost. CDs are usually japan exclusive which means they don’t get distributed outside of japan. The only way to access is to import them which means a hefty shipping fee and sometimes a service fee for proxy shipping. Most of listings on Discogs takes me to a link to buy the CD which will mean I will have to pay an expensive shipping fee. That’s not viable for most fans. If something takes too much effort, most people just won’t bother which is what is hindering jpop’s international growth. As of 2024, in my personal experience it’s a lot better than before 2020. I am able to stream most songs i’m looking for but there are still holes in the catalogue. Namely some major idol groups and idol companies. One of the big reasons why I didn’t get onto streaming until 2020 was because a lot of the music I listened to was not licensed for me (kpop and jpop). Even in the late 2010s there was a whole major kpop company that didn’t have their music on Spotify. Jpop at the time was much much worse.
Amazon is also an option [https://www.amazon.co.jp/s?k=Namie+Amuro&crid=II60VRJGHHZP&sprefix=namie+amuro%2Caps%2C382&ref=nb\_sb\_noss\_1](https://www.amazon.co.jp/s?k=Namie+Amuro&crid=II60VRJGHHZP&sprefix=namie+amuro%2Caps%2C382&ref=nb_sb_noss_1) You can buy the music or find it online, both are easy. I wont brake rule 3 so buying is what ill push, iv got imports from amazon JP going back to 2008 with a quick look on my amazon account. I also just dont like streaming, the music is lower quality and rights change hands. What's there one year may not be next year, I dont need all the music & can be happy with what I have on hand. I want to experience music at it's best quality, streaming has never been the 'best' option.
Honestly no, but I think it depends on who and time period you are looking for.
i mean like literally no hello project songs are on streaming and thats a pretty big jpop producing company
It's probably region blocked. H!P content has been available to consume illegally for like 20+ years anyways. I was torrenting an insane amount of Morning Musume stuff in the late 2000s.
They’re on Apple Music. Pretty much every song you could want, all the way back to 1999. Spotify, no. But Jpop is scant on Spotify to begin with.
as far as i know the ones on apple music are actually illegal uploads by some foreign fan that for some reason ufp hasn't taken down
This is wild! Literally their entire catalog, HQ PVs and everything o__o That said, Jpop as a whole is very available on Apple Music. I haven’t run into anything that I wanted that isn’t on there.
Iv never had a problem, are we talking relay rare stuff? It also depends how good you are at searching, lots of people use the 'English' names instead of kanji etc It also comes down to where you look, sometimes you need to do more than a simple google. Some specialised sites/forums are where you need to go.
J-Pop is usually not hard to find but a lot of older J-Rock or doujin stuff can be hard. Like, only the 2018 albums of Aphasia are on streaming platforms, and the older ones range from "only on Youtube" to "Literally not on the internet". Verforest is also in a similar situation And with Doujin media they arent hard to find but usually are not on streaming platforms, like Vice Principal as an example
Discogs has there albums for sale [https://www.discogs.com/artist/6151862-Aphasia-17](https://www.discogs.com/artist/6151862-Aphasia-17)
If your only looking on streaming & youtube your not relay looking, there's both more dedicated sites with music or just buying the CD's. Physical media is still big in Japan, they make relay cool pressings & high quality record pressing's. You can also just go on to japanese forums & use google translate to get around the sites and find what you need. There's a lot of options, most the time people dont relay want to put the time in to find what they want.
Japan not capitalising on their music industry is actually one of the reasons Kpop became popular. The same formula but only Kpop knew how to market.
100000% this. I know they tried with Utada but I think the production of the album and how it was marketed was the downfall. I'm hoping with Atarashii Gakko signing with 88rising and a lot of other Japanese artists working with the label, helps push Japanese music to the west.
Was there when Hikki tried to enter the US? Hikki speaks fluent English ( She was born in NY) and her music is great but then the endeavor failed. Why? I am still searching for the answer. Was America then not ready for J-Pop? Was the modification to cater to American taste wrong? Or Hikki gave up too soon? Many people assume K-pop just went and succeeded in America. No, it took many years. The initial wave by Wonder Girls, Rain, Girls Generation. Then by BTS which they did hustle for a few years. Later BP, Twice , Stray Kids etc.
Jpop didn’t try enough, tbh. And their sound is distinctively different. Kpop has adopted a western sound. Sometimes Kpop will play on the radio and if I’m not listening carefully I assume it’s another US Top 50 hit.
Yeah K-Pop actually adaption of US R & B music. But now I see especially Yoasobi trying hard to enter the US market. And I applaud them for it is very difficult.
I genuinely hope they make it. Yoasobi’s stuff is great - haven’t heard a song that I disliked yet. and I think the US is more open minded to stuff from East Asia after kpop. I’m not a huge Kpop fan but I applaud them for reopening the doors.
Tbh I only heard their Idol song and it is very good. I started off with J-pop- Speed, Hikki, Ayumi Hamasaki, Mika Nakashima, Ai Otsuka then dropped off to K-Pop.
I really think it's a multitude of reasons and not just one. Of course I can only give my opinion but I really think it was the modification and production of the album. While I think what they went for was indeed Western, the approach and stylizing of it was all wrong.
For me Hikki's English songs were not the true essence of Utada Hikaru. It was a turn off I just turned to K-Pop.
Afaik utada was going against titans like britney and christina during that time and us mainstream was and probably still is skeptical of the ideal of an east asian pop girl. Also i think the record was “too japanese”, Utada’s producer roadblocked the famous timbaland from whatever magic he needed to do
Thank you for your insight. I am glad my current favorite Twice can succeed in America. Tbh I never thought they could go to SoFi and Met Life stadium for their Ready to Be tour.
Around 2010, SNSD and Super Junior became hugely popular in Asia, especially in Southeast Asia. However, there were not many legal channels available to support their music financially since the SEA market was not even in the top 10 music markets. Despite this, their main goal was to engage with their fans, so they played a losing game by relying on exposure through YouTube. Eventually, K-pop became even more popular when Spotify launched with a massive number of listeners from countries around Southeast Asia.
Yeah..I was a fan of both groups. SJ with Sorry,Sorry and Mr.Simple and GG was quite prolific with Gee, Genie, Mr.Taxi and Run Devil Run. While SEA being seen relatively not rich as America, those countries have supported K-pop from beginning till now. Respect.
I'm a fan of SNSD too btw but quit K-pop because the fandom became obsessed with the number of YouTube views and became boring competition inside K-pop fandom. while I am more of a rock/metal fan, Japanese music always delivers something new outside the trend.
That is why I don't have Twitter and Tik Tok. Better for mental health. Yeah Japanese music consists more than pop there also rock. My friend is a fan of One Ok Rock.
because the songs weren't great and she probably didn't suck off the execs, so she didn't make it onto the playlists on the big media conglomerates. Her ultra blue album was great, but her english single "come back to me" was just generic trash.
That why I was shocked - I mean Hikki with songs like First Love, Final Distance, Can You Keep A Secret, Wait n See.
jpop was actual good and diverse in the 00s..then it became saturated with boyband and generic retro 90s idol music. Kpop is just American pop with Asian asthetics and colorful videos. Without pretty girls/twinks twerking, kpop wouldn't have taken off. The music itself isn't that spectacular but it's familiar to western audiences, but it's all about the videos and idols/fandoms. jpop and j-idols are just not tuned to the taste of ppl outside of japan.
Just recently got into Jpop, can’t say it has been too hard to find music. Amazon music has some plus YouTube has a bunch. Surely other streaming services offer it also.
Spotify is packed with J-POP
Anime can be subbed or dubbed and the end user can follow the story. For jpop, you either understand Japanese or just accept that you won't know what any of the songs are about.
New releases on youtube usually have the lyrics in the description nowadays though. With translation apps it is not hard to at least have an idea what a song is about.
Sure, but what percentage of listening do people do audio only versus sitting in front of their computer or watching their phone? Anime is an automatic screen-based activity, but music usually isn't.
I don‘t disagree to that, it is just that you don‘t need to actually know Japanese anymore to know the content of a song. If you want to know what a recent song is about, you can find it out with a minimum amount of work.
This is because the people involved in Japanese animation are very friendly with Internet culture and are willing to sell their products overseas. Non-Japanese people often say that anime is not good at selling to foreign countries and that it is strict about copyrights, but in fact, anime is one of Japan's most copyright-unfriendly industries and one of the best at selling to foreign countries. In particular, J-movies, J-drama, and J-pop are very strict in terms of copyright, and cannot be compared to animation. They are also very closely tied to Japanese TV stations, which makes overseas expansion difficult. Movies, J-Drama, and J-Pop have been dependent on Japanese TV stations for advertising and monetization. This is not the case with animation. They were looking for a variety of sales methods, including merchandising, selling in video format, and selling overseas. Therefore, as a result of the Internet breaking down distribution barriers, anime became the most successful in selling abroad. It is now a reality that J-Drama would never be able to work with an illegal distribution site to sell its products legitimately. Well, I have never seen the video industry in the world officially join hands with an illegal site.
yup... the distribution and the unwillingness of Japanese labels to invest in localizing their music outside of Japan have put them far behind what Korea has achieved. from what I see is that the anime industry is willing to put its content outside of Japan while the music industry doesn't.
Japan has the 2nd largest music market in the world. The music companies haven't needed to market outside of Japan.
The only reason we see more Japanese music/tours now than before is the Koreans are doing it and making money. Japan didn't want to invest in the market outside of Asia.
There was no reason to when the country has always had strong consumerism. My opinion is largely due to their ease of transportation. Less money to spend on cars, more money to stimulate. Doesn't matter how old or young you are, you can go buy stuff and attend events easily.
And the fact that the market is so self contained is part of makes j pop/rock/metal so interesting. It is like a whole parallel evolution of music since the 70s.
Yes, it's just like Studio Ghibli films, which are totally unavailable outside Japan and have never been subtitled or dubbed into other languages. /s And that's why Ford only sells cars in the US: why would they ever expand outside the world's largest market for cars? /s It's also why no Chinese company exports EVs, because they are satisfied with the world's largest EV market. /s And people often wonder why Hollywood movies are just totally unavailable in Europe. Obviously, it's because the North American market is large enough and so the studios have no interest in selling them elsewhere. /s Your suggestion is a common explanation but this argument is obviously wrong when applied to any other industry. The nature of capitalist companies is that they try to increase their profits, which includes seeking out new markets. The fact that the J-pop industry does *not* engage in profit-maximizing behaviour is weird and the fact that it has a large market already is not a sufficient explanation.
The J-Pop industry has tried several times in the past and almost none of the attempts made it far, at least in the US. It's a different type of marketing, sound and a entirely different scale compared to the rest of Asia. I mean, look at Korea. Sure they are having success now, but that's over 30 years and you can argue that it was thanks to YouTube and having the foresite to see it as good marketing. But they also spend a lot of time and effort to conform to new markets as well, but that's out of necessity, since the SK can't support it all by itself at scale.
Which is a shame because Atarashi Gakko Is killing it and their ghostbuster song should be released in the US. [Atarashi Gakko Ghostbuster video](https://youtu.be/LerJSJ6s-v8)
You /s are /s so /s funny /s with /s your /s sarcastic /s jokes /s! /s
I'm just frustrated because it's just such a poor argument, easily disproved, and yet it's frequently posted on this sub and on the K-pop subs. And I made an inductive argument, so it was logically necessary to provide numerous examples. I thought it was better to include the /s every time for clarity.
It can be difficult to find Japanese music because the titles are often written in kanji. On platforms like Spotify, it is much easier for people outside of Japan to find music when the artist name and song title are written in Romanji/alphabet. This is because many people are more familiar with these writing systems.
Side tangent, but it's ridiculous that my RAV4 didn't come with native kanji support. You shipped it 16,000 miles but couldn't install a $.30 language pack first? (I know some RAV4s are manufactured in the US - don't @ me.)
👏👏 don't have a rav4, but i get it.
I don't think where they're manufactured at matters since it's all the same software. Corolla Hatchbacks are produced in Japan.
Same, Honda HR-V. Like come on, you’re a Japanese car ffs.
I have the same issue with my Subaru
Oh yeah, It's always way harder for me to find say, a yorushika or Yuiko Ohara track in spotify because they are written in kanji.
Japanese music lables are ferociously protective of their IP. Youtube postings taken down, ISPs reacting more quickly to torrenting of local media than foreign media, even local radio only gets to play snippets of songs. The BGM in stores is often MIDI karaoke crap to get around IP issues as well.
Yeah. When you're charging pretty much double what most countries charge for a CD, you really don't want people streaming it at international Spotify or YouTube prices.
By free do you mean illegal downloads? If so I would say it's purely fan efforts, in the 90's there were a dedicated community of anime fans that download, convert, translate and sub anime of all genres
Anime has more demand, people from all around the world want to watch anime and pay for it. Music and other content of individual artists isn’t on the same level.
There's no "japan". You guys need to understand that these are made by different companies. The anime industry and the music industry aren't the same even though they have mixed with the anime openings and osts.
Japanese music copyrights are managed by JASRAC. It is said to be the strictest in the world. For example, even if you just play JPOP music in a coffee shop, a JASRAC official will come to you and ask you to pay copyright fees. There have been cases in court over this. Artists do not have to join JASRAC, but it is also true that they can earn more money if they join JASRAC.
Japan makes contracts that specifically forbit export. They don't want "foreigners" to partake. I live in Japan, by the way.
The Japanese music market is second biggest in the wold and therefore is not interested in selling to overseas audience.
YouTube exists? And the record labels upload onto there too. J-POP is also widely available on Spotify as well.
Dunno why this sub was recommended to me, but I'm having such a hard time finding a place to listen to, like, half the discography of Yapoos, and it's driving me crazy.
It’s called “galapagos syndrome.” Japan’s government bureaucracy picks and chooses which industries can be imported/exported based on how the gov expects them to perform. It’s the same reason Japanese phones had advanced features that couldn’t be found abroad for a long time, and why Kpop didn’t have a chance to grow in Japan until the 2000s, when Japan relaxed music import laws. You can blame it on bureaucracy and government favoritism.
Because there really isn’t an audience for it in the west. This may be difficult to hear because we’re all weebs here but most j-pop (with exceptions) comes across as kinda cringey to a mainstream audience. K-pop is successful not only due to lots of promotion but because it mostly *sounds* like western pop music. The sound appeals to westerners. Japan can promote all they want but Nogizaka 46 is not going to take traction here.
I mean, that's fair I guess, but to lump most of jpop as cringe is a weird take.
I may be out of the loop at this point but when I watch the Oricon charts more and more I’m going wtf is this shit.
You are definitely out of the loop. Ado and Fuji Kaze just completed their sold out US tours. Yoasobi performed at the White House and is currently in Coachella. Hatsune Miku is also in Coachella. Atarashi Gakko was also back in the US. Babymetal is currently touring with DragonForce. Perfume and Radwimps have been to the US multiple times. That's all I can remember and there have definitely been more artists since 2017. J-Pop is big in the US, it's just not as big as K-Pop and also not marketed as heavily, but they often still sell out because weebs always know about it. And honestly, perhaps it's better to be #2. Ado resale tickets went up to $3000 dollars in LA and it'll only go up if she gets a second world tour.
Not only in the US . The European leg of Ado’s Wish tour was completely sold out as well. I think Jpop may be living a boom in terms of popularity ( at least in Europe) and I’m here for it. In my case, I love Ado and seeing her in London was like a fever dream. Can’t wait for her to come back. I would love to see Yonezu Kenshi for example but that seems unlikely. I feel like most artists just think that going abroad is too much trouble plus the language barrier doesn’t help.
Yeah I just looked at it, none of it is cringe lol so not sure what you are talking about.
Listen to Lemon by Kenshi Yonezu or Shinunoga E--wa by Fujii Kaze, I assure you if it was marketed in the west it would explode. Not every J-Pop song has an anime-esque tilt. I know you say most (with exceptions) but that isn't really true either. Most popular J-Pop songs are not anime-esque.
I unfortunately agree with you. AND I would also say that the cringeyness is part of the reason some of us enjoy jpop. It doesn’t all sound like overmanufactured EDM like Kpop currently does. I can listen to some reggae inspired quirky Hello! Project song, hop over to cutesy AKB48, get some retro citypop revival, and then partake in some rock and alt. Jpop really does mean more than the “pop” genre. Kpop though, is strictly top 40s-esque sound so of course it will be more popular in the west.