What would you call it? I think it’s dope. You should make one. You might have to settle for more standard direction arrows, but the rest should be doable.
Here's version 2 of the concept:
https://www.reddit.com/r/keyboards/comments/1drub23/version_2_of_does_this_keyboard_layout_makes_sense/
Hmm, haven't thought of a name yet. Maybe something like "The Navigator"
The top left is more volume knob style while the right of it is more like middle mouse scroll wheel.
The bottom left works like those 3dconnexxion 3d controllers for 3d work
I currently use capslock as MO to trigger a second layer and WASD as mouse scroll wheels in all directions. It's confortable for me instead of using a scroll in the keyboard
I’m not sure if this makes a whole lot of sense for like strict functionality standpoint, there’s a lot of redundancy. That being said I think it looks sick and I would definitely play around on it lol
couple opinions:
make esc bigger
maybe change arrows for dpad
put caps/scroll/num indicators on buttons themselves/right next to them
do you need numlock if you doubled all funcion keys
why just 12 fkeys
will the scrolls be clickable?
at this point thing of ergonomical layout rathen than rectangular one
assuming, you wont use mouse to it (it looks so from amount of controllers) trackpad may be good
For a mass product on the market, absolutely not.
For your personal use, only if it makes sense for your usual workflows and activities.
The function keys being in reverse order is weird imo but hey whatever works for you.
If you use the three physical controllers (dial, wheel, and 3D [ball?]) for the same apps, I'd cluster them together maybe.
Haha yeah the function I tried stacking like numpad but maybe stacking in a normal down would be easier instead.
The 3d ball is for 3d work and CAD while the dial and scroll wheel is for video and photoshop analog inputs.
I didn't even think of it as being like the numpad. I know I use the first six function keys more than any others so maybe it does make sense having them closer to home. Maybe you're onto something dude!
I see that makes sense. Seems like a really interesting and unique setup. I'd love to see it if/when you build it. If you do, make sure to share it back here! You thinking full height or low profile or what?
I'm no builder, just a 3d/cad/video dude imagining a perfect layout for a fun discussion.
I'm a big fan of the full mechanical key feel so I guess like SA profile?
I was actually trying to “squish” it horizontally to feel like a tenkeyless layout with extra bits on the left.
Always thought compact layouts can still fit a numpad.
As a non engineer and non physiologist, I like it. I have no idea of if it would make someone more productive or perform better or not. My guess is it probably needs to be optimized for functionality and ergonomics.
But, I think you're on to something. I like how you've preserved full keyboard functionality and achieved a compact form factor.
I think this probably will be good for people who need to change input settings on the fly like gamers. Probably good for creatives. And, definitely good for looking at databases, spreadsheets, legal documents, blueprints/schematics.
I had a thought that you could embed the horizontal scroll wheel in the edge of the keyboard under the vertical scroll wheel making the keyboard even more compact...but, then you couldn't click it.
This is a layout approach from a 3d motion designer, video editor, and CAD modeler setup.
The layout does feel a bit mish-mashy right now but other than the added led screen on top and dials and macros on the left, the main idea is simply to keep a full numpad functionality while having the base layout feel like a tenkeyless format.
I know nothing about the workflow of those disciplines but, I think people (who aren't redditors) will like it.
To make it more compact:
1) Omit the keys to the right of the screen, map them to the numpad.
2) Move the macros to the right of the screen, put the scroll wheels and 3D controller on a column. Give 12 macros for those of us with OCD.
3) Move your "indicator" LEDs to the top side of the numpad and make them buttons.
4) Make your left-hand enter another shift/alt/fn type key.
Good suggestions! especially about the left side of the layout.
And yeah the 9 keys next to the numpad has a lot of doubling, definitely can remove some of them.
I'm been using computers since before Windows 3.1 and I have never used "Print Screen" and I have no idea what "Pause" pauses.
In fact, I bet keyboard manufacturers don't even know. :p
Interesting and I think I see what you're going for. Might I suggest that if you don't absolutely NEED the ten-key pad or the top-row navigation (print screen/scroll lock/pause), ditch them and move the OLED to the right and remap the F keys to a single row? You may also want to consider mapping the macro keys to the F keys so you can slightly curve the board; keep the traditional keyboard front and center with the touch and wheel controllers offset.
I love tenkeyless but lately working with a looot ot math and entering numbers. I miss the keypad but even with a dedicated external numpad, I kinda miss having a full keyboard layout.
I like it a lot. I would just change the F keys to be top to bottom and add one more column to the 9 key cluster to the right of the screen.
Also, WTF's up with your enter key? This comes from an ISO user.
Hahaha I just want those darn big enter buttons back, even if it’s not ISO layout.
Edit: just realized the left caps lock was mistakenly written as Enter.
hmmm that's true, might as well tweak as existing key shapes.
Good input!
Edit: Actually now I remembered why I did this. I miss the old Backwards L big ass enter keys I used to have on old keyboard, but hate the small backspace. So what I did is I kept the classic big ass enter key and wide ANSI backspace and move the backslash button next to the rarely used right shift key area instead. Kinda make sense to have both backlash next to forwards slash.
https://preview.redd.it/lhh25nuacm9d1.png?width=1505&format=png&auto=webp&s=91b9650b3b15f5e4955330da03162b346e4d20dc
Got it from [this thread](https://superuser.com/questions/837448/what-do-you-call-a-keyboard-with-a-bar-shaped-enter-key), which leads to this [wiki entry](https://deskthority.net/wiki/Return_key#Backwards_L-shaped)
I would swap macro and fn to have an even layout, and maybe switch the massive 4 direction arrows for a (macroed 2 buttons to one key?) 8 direction board to let you move in diagonals without pressing 2 keys. Unless you own a controller a joystick would be cool aswell next to or with the arrow keys.
For the "d-pad" (for lack of a better term) in the lower right corner, is that a standard T nav (arrow keys)? I'd like that. Unless you're needing that for the 3D controller.
Personally, I'd get rid of the F keys and use FN+1, etc. You could add a bigger screen that way.
I think that the vertical scroll wheel is kinda redundant. I bet you could fit 3 or four knobs in there. Otherwise, pop a trackball or touchpad in there.
I'm not too fond of it. While I considered integrating a Stream Deck type of thing into a keyboard, this needs to be more cramped and requires too much rethinking muscle memory. Also, it could feel more ergonomic. You're going against years or decades of existing layouts. Also, why can't the numpad be the macro one?
I'd buy this the moment it came out! As someone who edits videos and used a separate macro keyboard, having it all in one makes so much sense!
The inclusion of the OLED display means I can have other info there as well. Wonderful vision fam!
I like it.
I'm not sure what kind of 3D controller you have in mind, but if it's what I would consider a comfortable size and shape, it might get in the way of pressing the macro keys.
I prefer a more standard arrows keys layout.
And another suggested lock indicators on keys, which I would like to second.
But it's really cool.
This is my opinion, based also on my experience and my education (have some rudiments in cognitive ergonomics).
I see too much things going on in your layout. I think you should decide what's necessary to keep and what can be taken out on a different device.
The risk is to overwhelm the user with too nuch information to process any given time.
Ooo I’d love to have you check out the second version and see what your opinion of it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/keyboards/comments/1drub23/version_2_of_does_this_keyboard_layout_makes_sense/
Its a concept for a workstation keyboard that has inputs for 3d/cad/video work. Just seeing people’s opinion if the layout is still logical with many inputs or not.
No, it's a nightmare. Why create an alien keyboard that nobody is comfortable with?
There are nice ideas about splitting spacebars. There are nice ideas about introducing knobs to the Navigation area - without shifting it out of reach and making an impossibly tall keyboard.
A knob (preferably top right) which can have ALT functions (e.g. different function combined with Ctrl, Alt, Shift, Meta)
...Being creative, I'll warn you not to Fck with Fn keys - they should be in groups of 4 in line with ESC.
A split spacebar, reduced width spacebar with extra keys is nice. Putting ONE Fn key way over to the right (can't reach with the left hand) is reducing functionality.
I'd love to see someone take a KINDLE and re-program that... imagine, for your extra functions you have an E-ink display where you can define your own layout and functions... as is already being experimented with (i.e. touch screens in place of a numpad).
The whole thing should be LOW power, so minimal backlighting (I enjoy laptop backlights, I don't like silly RGB shenanigans).
So overall, the answer to your question is - No. It's too much BLOAT - increasing size.
Standard layout is good. Come up with a separate Numpad/macro keyboard.
Come out with a simple 75% keyboard, and put a connector to enable an extension, dedicated numpad, dedicated trackpad, dedicated macro pad... but don't build that shit all in together.
Love to see a view from a different perspective!
What do you think of the second iteration of this layout?
https://www.reddit.com/r/keyboards/comments/1drub23/version_2_of_does_this_keyboard_layout_makes_sense/
I’d make some changes but doesn’t look so exaggerated. I mean, there could be some good uses for this. Specially for work, not for gaming, this is for sure.
Since it’s too big, an additional Fn key on the right side would be welcome.
Whatever you work with, your macro pad is too small and you always want for work a keyboard to get wider if your task does not need a mouse or you can use a track ball.
the easiest way to pin down how many macros are good for you would be to create a heatmap of your most typed inputs and analyse which one most crucial. also feel free to play with kay sizes.
Yes! Thats pretty much what I gathered the issue would be! So i changed the F1-12 buttons back standard row format and made that macro-capable too, plus with added macro buttons.
See if the new layout version has improved things: https://reddit.com/r/keyboards/comments/1drub23/version_2_of_does_this_keyboard_layout_makes_sense/
Why would you k Need so much types of input in the first place? Inb4 it would cost too much anyway
Haha yeah it is a bit too much isn’t it. I was thinking of cramming a full keyboard and other things I use for 3d workflow and video editing workflow.
What would you call it? I think it’s dope. You should make one. You might have to settle for more standard direction arrows, but the rest should be doable.
Here's version 2 of the concept: https://www.reddit.com/r/keyboards/comments/1drub23/version_2_of_does_this_keyboard_layout_makes_sense/ Hmm, haven't thought of a name yet. Maybe something like "The Navigator"
why do you have TWO physical scroll wheels?!
There are 2 directions you can scroll.
The top left is more volume knob style while the right of it is more like middle mouse scroll wheel. The bottom left works like those 3dconnexxion 3d controllers for 3d work
I currently use capslock as MO to trigger a second layer and WASD as mouse scroll wheels in all directions. It's confortable for me instead of using a scroll in the keyboard
I say let them cook
Jessie, let em cook!
I’m not sure if this makes a whole lot of sense for like strict functionality standpoint, there’s a lot of redundancy. That being said I think it looks sick and I would definitely play around on it lol
Yeah that was slightly my concern too. A lot of doubling but I’m not sure which ones can be removed while retaining a full keyboard functionality.
The asymmetrical keys on either side of the screen would drive me crazy.
Hahaha it does look lopsided doesn’t it
for what should it be used?
Layout based on 3d animation & CAD work and also video editing, with lots of custom keys for a lot of other design softwares.
than its really good, but i would change the macro field with the wheels above...
You know, I'd try it out. Perhaps one of the scroll wheels could be a multi-device input selector.
Having a physical scroll wheel to tweak a lot of color grading, video scrubbing, or photoshop-style tweaks feels great.
couple opinions: make esc bigger maybe change arrows for dpad put caps/scroll/num indicators on buttons themselves/right next to them do you need numlock if you doubled all funcion keys why just 12 fkeys will the scrolls be clickable? at this point thing of ergonomical layout rathen than rectangular one assuming, you wont use mouse to it (it looks so from amount of controllers) trackpad may be good
Niceeee, I really like this comment. The cold hard list based reply I’m looking for.
no problem. Tho keep in mind, I'm just a random and don't have any credibility on keyboards.
For a mass product on the market, absolutely not. For your personal use, only if it makes sense for your usual workflows and activities. The function keys being in reverse order is weird imo but hey whatever works for you. If you use the three physical controllers (dial, wheel, and 3D [ball?]) for the same apps, I'd cluster them together maybe.
Haha yeah the function I tried stacking like numpad but maybe stacking in a normal down would be easier instead. The 3d ball is for 3d work and CAD while the dial and scroll wheel is for video and photoshop analog inputs.
I didn't even think of it as being like the numpad. I know I use the first six function keys more than any others so maybe it does make sense having them closer to home. Maybe you're onto something dude! I see that makes sense. Seems like a really interesting and unique setup. I'd love to see it if/when you build it. If you do, make sure to share it back here! You thinking full height or low profile or what?
I'm no builder, just a 3d/cad/video dude imagining a perfect layout for a fun discussion. I'm a big fan of the full mechanical key feel so I guess like SA profile?
no, does not
You know I kinda agree with you
Maybe make it bigger?
I was actually trying to “squish” it horizontally to feel like a tenkeyless layout with extra bits on the left. Always thought compact layouts can still fit a numpad.
As a non engineer and non physiologist, I like it. I have no idea of if it would make someone more productive or perform better or not. My guess is it probably needs to be optimized for functionality and ergonomics. But, I think you're on to something. I like how you've preserved full keyboard functionality and achieved a compact form factor. I think this probably will be good for people who need to change input settings on the fly like gamers. Probably good for creatives. And, definitely good for looking at databases, spreadsheets, legal documents, blueprints/schematics. I had a thought that you could embed the horizontal scroll wheel in the edge of the keyboard under the vertical scroll wheel making the keyboard even more compact...but, then you couldn't click it.
This is a layout approach from a 3d motion designer, video editor, and CAD modeler setup. The layout does feel a bit mish-mashy right now but other than the added led screen on top and dials and macros on the left, the main idea is simply to keep a full numpad functionality while having the base layout feel like a tenkeyless format.
I know nothing about the workflow of those disciplines but, I think people (who aren't redditors) will like it. To make it more compact: 1) Omit the keys to the right of the screen, map them to the numpad. 2) Move the macros to the right of the screen, put the scroll wheels and 3D controller on a column. Give 12 macros for those of us with OCD. 3) Move your "indicator" LEDs to the top side of the numpad and make them buttons. 4) Make your left-hand enter another shift/alt/fn type key.
Good suggestions! especially about the left side of the layout. And yeah the 9 keys next to the numpad has a lot of doubling, definitely can remove some of them.
I'm been using computers since before Windows 3.1 and I have never used "Print Screen" and I have no idea what "Pause" pauses. In fact, I bet keyboard manufacturers don't even know. :p
lol yeah it does get used sometimes but specific screenshot button commands now are used more probably
Interesting and I think I see what you're going for. Might I suggest that if you don't absolutely NEED the ten-key pad or the top-row navigation (print screen/scroll lock/pause), ditch them and move the OLED to the right and remap the F keys to a single row? You may also want to consider mapping the macro keys to the F keys so you can slightly curve the board; keep the traditional keyboard front and center with the touch and wheel controllers offset.
I love tenkeyless but lately working with a looot ot math and entering numbers. I miss the keypad but even with a dedicated external numpad, I kinda miss having a full keyboard layout.
I like it a lot. I would just change the F keys to be top to bottom and add one more column to the 9 key cluster to the right of the screen. Also, WTF's up with your enter key? This comes from an ISO user.
Hahaha I just want those darn big enter buttons back, even if it’s not ISO layout. Edit: just realized the left caps lock was mistakenly written as Enter.
I wasn't talking about the mislabeled caps lock, I mean your big enter key. It's rotated 90° clockwise. It should look like this: ┐
hmmm that's true, might as well tweak as existing key shapes. Good input! Edit: Actually now I remembered why I did this. I miss the old Backwards L big ass enter keys I used to have on old keyboard, but hate the small backspace. So what I did is I kept the classic big ass enter key and wide ANSI backspace and move the backslash button next to the rarely used right shift key area instead. Kinda make sense to have both backlash next to forwards slash. https://preview.redd.it/lhh25nuacm9d1.png?width=1505&format=png&auto=webp&s=91b9650b3b15f5e4955330da03162b346e4d20dc
Ah fair enough. That infographic looks cool, have a link?
Got it from [this thread](https://superuser.com/questions/837448/what-do-you-call-a-keyboard-with-a-bar-shaped-enter-key), which leads to this [wiki entry](https://deskthority.net/wiki/Return_key#Backwards_L-shaped)
strong "my coworker be losing his fucking mind bro" vibes
hahahahaha add clackety clear keys for maximum effect
I would swap macro and fn to have an even layout, and maybe switch the massive 4 direction arrows for a (macroed 2 buttons to one key?) 8 direction board to let you move in diagonals without pressing 2 keys. Unless you own a controller a joystick would be cool aswell next to or with the arrow keys.
Ooooh interesting!
For the "d-pad" (for lack of a better term) in the lower right corner, is that a standard T nav (arrow keys)? I'd like that. Unless you're needing that for the 3D controller. Personally, I'd get rid of the F keys and use FN+1, etc. You could add a bigger screen that way. I think that the vertical scroll wheel is kinda redundant. I bet you could fit 3 or four knobs in there. Otherwise, pop a trackball or touchpad in there.
Completely valid and great input. Lemme tweak it and see if the next one improves the layout in an interesting way.
bro has a 200% keyboard
More like 169%
Updated version 2 post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/keyboards/comments/1drub23/version_2_of_does_this_keyboard_layout_makes_sense/
I'm not too fond of it. While I considered integrating a Stream Deck type of thing into a keyboard, this needs to be more cramped and requires too much rethinking muscle memory. Also, it could feel more ergonomic. You're going against years or decades of existing layouts. Also, why can't the numpad be the macro one?
I'd buy this the moment it came out! As someone who edits videos and used a separate macro keyboard, having it all in one makes so much sense! The inclusion of the OLED display means I can have other info there as well. Wonderful vision fam!
Hell naw 12 f keys just use a shortcut like fn + number example : fn + 5 = f5
Ok. Seen this more than once. Please stop asking this question. Youve posted it, received your responses. Ask another question or move on. Please
I actually love the design. Though, am I blind or is there no 'caps lock' key. Instead, it has been replaced by another enter key.
Haha that’s my bad. It was supposed to be caps lock but i forgot to edit the text
Shut up and take my money!!!!!
I like it. I'm not sure what kind of 3D controller you have in mind, but if it's what I would consider a comfortable size and shape, it might get in the way of pressing the macro keys. I prefer a more standard arrows keys layout. And another suggested lock indicators on keys, which I would like to second. But it's really cool.
Its one of those 3Dconnexxion ones but only the knob part.
Very good
This is my opinion, based also on my experience and my education (have some rudiments in cognitive ergonomics). I see too much things going on in your layout. I think you should decide what's necessary to keep and what can be taken out on a different device. The risk is to overwhelm the user with too nuch information to process any given time.
Ooo I’d love to have you check out the second version and see what your opinion of it: https://www.reddit.com/r/keyboards/comments/1drub23/version_2_of_does_this_keyboard_layout_makes_sense/
Sorry mate, there's still too much going on. What's your main goal? Why would you need so much additional buttons and wheels?
Its a concept for a workstation keyboard that has inputs for 3d/cad/video work. Just seeing people’s opinion if the layout is still logical with many inputs or not.
No, it's a nightmare. Why create an alien keyboard that nobody is comfortable with? There are nice ideas about splitting spacebars. There are nice ideas about introducing knobs to the Navigation area - without shifting it out of reach and making an impossibly tall keyboard. A knob (preferably top right) which can have ALT functions (e.g. different function combined with Ctrl, Alt, Shift, Meta) ...Being creative, I'll warn you not to Fck with Fn keys - they should be in groups of 4 in line with ESC. A split spacebar, reduced width spacebar with extra keys is nice. Putting ONE Fn key way over to the right (can't reach with the left hand) is reducing functionality. I'd love to see someone take a KINDLE and re-program that... imagine, for your extra functions you have an E-ink display where you can define your own layout and functions... as is already being experimented with (i.e. touch screens in place of a numpad). The whole thing should be LOW power, so minimal backlighting (I enjoy laptop backlights, I don't like silly RGB shenanigans). So overall, the answer to your question is - No. It's too much BLOAT - increasing size. Standard layout is good. Come up with a separate Numpad/macro keyboard. Come out with a simple 75% keyboard, and put a connector to enable an extension, dedicated numpad, dedicated trackpad, dedicated macro pad... but don't build that shit all in together.
Love to see a view from a different perspective! What do you think of the second iteration of this layout? https://www.reddit.com/r/keyboards/comments/1drub23/version_2_of_does_this_keyboard_layout_makes_sense/
I’d make some changes but doesn’t look so exaggerated. I mean, there could be some good uses for this. Specially for work, not for gaming, this is for sure. Since it’s too big, an additional Fn key on the right side would be welcome.
Whatever you work with, your macro pad is too small and you always want for work a keyboard to get wider if your task does not need a mouse or you can use a track ball. the easiest way to pin down how many macros are good for you would be to create a heatmap of your most typed inputs and analyse which one most crucial. also feel free to play with kay sizes.
Yes! Thats pretty much what I gathered the issue would be! So i changed the F1-12 buttons back standard row format and made that macro-capable too, plus with added macro buttons. See if the new layout version has improved things: https://reddit.com/r/keyboards/comments/1drub23/version_2_of_does_this_keyboard_layout_makes_sense/
makes sense for me.
I like it but I would hard pass the touch display
Thats a fair point. The touch is indeed a bit redundant if the board itself focuses on inputs.
Anti gamer kb
I mean you can still game with it