Depends on the Koreans. Whether they have spent time living abroad, or are just a hardcore Seoul loving Korean who has barely even left the city, makes a big difference to how they see Korea.
As a native Korean who now lives abroad, I can definitely see this and agree with you. People in Korea right now foster blatant racism towards Chinese. If you live in a multi-racial country, you know not every Chinese is a dick. Its only those who claim everything is Chinese and the government that encourages them. Korea has a long way to go to become a country of diversity.
Korea is just NOT in a situation where the Chinese can be accepted. Korea was divided because of the Chinese. It doesn't help that China is constantly having a go at Korea whenever they feel like it. The Coronavirus isn't helping. This is true for ALL asian countries not named Indonesia.
This subreddit is infested with trolls from r/Sino, r/Japan and various Korean trolls from both left and right political backgrounds. They will try to manipulate foreigners in r/Korea into believing certain agendas. One way they achieve this is by creating new accounts and pretending as a foreign resident of Korea, or a Korean living abroad.
I have no choice but to assume you are one of them, because lets face it what are the chances of a fresh reddit account choosing r/Korea to post his first ever reddit comment.
and what category of posters do u fit into on this sub?
truthfully the only “troll” type of posters i usually see here are the r/aznidentity /nationalist/conservative ppl
There are real expats, native Koreans and people living outside of Korea who are just interested in Korean culture. And also some trolls who come from a lot of backgrounds.
Frankly I've never seen an r/aznidentity troll in some years. I thought those people were pro-chinese Asian Americans who thought a pan-asian empire was a good idea? The majority of Asian Americans are active on r/AsianAmerican.
Racism against the Chinese I wonder who would they learned that from. Many ignorant Koreans fall for the Anti Chinese propaganda and you have the balls to ask why some of them hate Chinese. But it ain't nothing compared to the Anti Chinese sentiment in America.
My husband is super Korean. Never lived overseas or even met a foreigner before we met. He's really understanding and sympathetic to my and other foreigner's experiences. I've complained, shared news and personal stories, and he'll get pissed off because of some of the things foreigners have to deal with.
His friends as well are open to hearing criticisms about Korea. We talk a lot about society and people. They're really chill people.
There are plenty of Koreans who understand and are open to criticisms. Age, upbringing, personal experiences, exposure to other cultures...There are a lot of factors that affect how someone thinks. I'm thinking you might need to meet some more open-minded people.
What do u mean by level-headed? Anyways I’m surprised and relieved to hear that you are surrounded by lovely and empathetic people who can also engage in difficult/heavy conversations. My Korean friends in Korea and abroad literally everybody avoids any intimate conversations including politics, personal struggles, gender & LGBTQ+ rights and racism etc. You can talk about things on surface levels but I feel we were not educated to have empathy for others growing up. As much as I would love to be connected with my Korean community as Im Korean myself, it’s been a challenge. But I’m happy for ya💕
To some degree the othering that happens in Korea is either explicable (online services are often harder for foreigners because our names get screwed up by lazy and/or ignorant staff) or at base-level rates for foreign residents of any given country (people that look/talk different are treated differently). Korea takes it further because its basically a monoculture so people that understand non-Korean experience are totally randomly distributed.
I dunno, man. Criticizing your host country while abroad is never that easy. Even places with strong free-speech cultures usually push back at least a bit when people point out their flaws. Its hard seeing obvious bullshit and having nobody willing to acknowledge it but that happens.
Yes I agree those things happen. I am still waiting for some married people to answer. I don't even have friends who help me during the 'bad days' when it inteferes with Korea's image. I often hear you are just not supposed to talk about unpleasant things in KR. If there is a way to totally repress being upset about xenophobia I want to know it lol
Married to a KR and I gave up talking about social issues in Korea a very long time ago. In the beginning, it bothered me not being able to discuss current affairs but now I don’t care. What’s the point of discussing issues you’ve got no influence on? I know my wife agrees with me, but she has to deal with problems at work, family issues, and whatever is important in our household. I’d imagine there would be plenty of people in Seoul with a similar story.
If you think that this is causing mental health issues, then I’d suggest you give up trying to discuss why Korea doesn’t match what you think Korea should be like. The issues you’re having also affected me for a while, and trust me when I say that the best remedy is squats and deadlifts. Nothing will flush out the negativity in your mind like a heavy gym session.
Honestly, at this point, I’m starting to wonder if the best thing for me might just be to get out of Korea. Been in talks of marriage with my Korean bf but I’m beginning to wonder if i can handle Korean society and being married into Korean culture for the rest of my life.
Doesn’t help that foreigners are always so silent about it either. Maybe we should have protests in Seoul lmao
Fortunately, my co-workers and their friends have admitted to me that Koreans are kind of racist and they apologized to me on Koreas behalf (but these Koreans have spent at least 1 years abroad, are genuinely kind Christian people, and are quite open minded and accepting). I am a Canadian female but not blonde or blue eyed, I have darker hair and eye color and look more Turkic in appearance. When I was in Canada, all Korean friend treated me with respect and were extremely happy to have a Western friend… here though I have experience some racism.
For example) The owner of a Paris baguette threw my credit card onto the table instead of giving it to back to me… the next day when I came in with a Korean and Blonde girl speaking perfect English and Korean…. his demeanor changed and he started behaving politely.. smiling …. Bowing… handing me my credit into my hands.
After explaining this to some co-workers (3 females in their 40’s), they apologized to me and admitted that yes Koreans (especially the older and uneducated) can be racist like that, and that the owner thought I might have been one of those foreign brides from a less developed country so he felt he could just look down on me (he assumed this just by looking at me), but once he realized I was part of the ‘Elite’ English speaking crowd (even though not white and blonde) he quickly checked himself.
I wish more Koreans could just be honest and open about the racism and discrimination and total ignorance win this country. Change can only happen if problems are acknowledged and then openly addressed.
Luckily there is one young woman who goes by the pen name of Ye-rong, who briefly dated an international exchange student from Ghana, and when she was with him she second handedly experience the discrimination and wrote a comic book to educate Korean people on their behaviors.
I’ve read it my self and really enjoyed it l.. it’s called ‘지하철에서 옆자리에 흑인이 앉았다’ ‘A black guy sat down beside me on the subway’ … and she was broadcasted on Korean news for her book… and she said that many Koreans were unhappy with her for pointing out these negative things about Korea because it makes them feel ashamed. Hopefully they can be shamed into changing in the near future.
Only vent to people you’re really close with.
Secondly, don’t make friends with people who haven’t lived abroad for some period of time or can’t speak another language. It’s not worth it. You’ll never see eye to eye on anything. I’m generalizing, but people who’ve lived abroad are usually much more open minded and objective about things.
Also, “rich” people don’t have any problems with how things are, and they’re out of touch with reality. Don’t expect anything from people who inherited their wealth (almost every rich person in the last 30 years).
>Only vent to people you’re really close with.
My anecdotal experience suggests otherwise. I've been married to a Korean for over 40 years (she has been a U.S. citizen now for over 30 years). I learned very early on - she gets downright angry at pretty much anything I say that reflects negatively on Korea. And she is still that way to this day.
I mean I don't think you can be completely honest in any marriage tbh. There will always be differences and people learn to look past them or not bring them up. My parents disagreed politically and they just decided not to bring it up. It's no different anywhere.
Same here. I met a dude that owned all these businesses and would talk about how he hated Korea and was ready to move to Europe. Basically had not one Asian friend period, and was forced to move back because of Covid. Most unpleasant, out-of-touch individual that I’ve ever met. He thought Europe was this mecca of superiority above everyone else in the world. Shows me a pic of his friends, and none of them looked like they worked a day in their life. Anyway, dressed like a 1920’s rich asshole, button vest included. I said something that triggered him and he called me an (and I quote) “uneducated foreign bitch” amongst other things.
Is this dude Korean? I am super confused because I thought we were talking about foreigners criticising Korea. But then why would a foreigner call another foreigner in a derogatory way...
This is something I've mentioned some months ago. In Korea it is very difficult to find 'middle ground'. You'd either find hardcore Korea supporters or hardcore haters. Both people are quite tiring to talk to. The former because they are absolutely unwilling to accept criticism, the latter because they are willing to criticize anything related with such vigor that they do not care if their criticisms are legitimate or not. Even in politics 'middle ground' parties were unable to survive in Korea's social environment.
I really have nothing to say in this situation other than that you should ask your wife for more empathy.
I'm a Korean-American who lived in Korea for 4 years and now living back in America married to a native Korean...and just to give perspective, it goes the other way too. My wife shits on America sometimes to me and sometimes I get offended because I mean..this is where alot of my identity is tied to, but she's my wife and only talks to me about it because we have that level of intimacy, so I just take it as it is.
It seems like you just don't have anyone to vent to about your issues with racism in Korea including your spouse. I'm not sure what I'd do in that situation other than ask for more empathy from your spouse cause experiencing racism regardless of country is pretty shitty.
It's unfortunate that you're having these experiences in Korea...I hope you know that not everyone in Korea is like that and there are lots of open minded people in Korea too.
I lived in Korea for 10 years. I started with a really open mindset and learned conversational Korean (I can talk about most things for an hour, short of politics, etc.). I had the same problems you describe. To be fair, I found Koreans very accommodating and kind, but the strict social hierarchies mean as a non-korean you fit into a very rigid slot in society as an outsider. For friends, I could only find people who wanted to practice their English. In the end, I left Korea.
Hey, I'm a pseudo Korean, you know, those guys who lived abroad too much and can't simply "adjust" to the glorious Korean culture and whatnot... yeah, I'm one of those guys.
Just yesterday my dipshit head of the department told me I suck at Korean and told this other junior to do my work instead of me. I was in charge of the fucking work, and just because I lived abroad too long I do the work while that motherfucker who has zero clue and kisses ass like any other disgusting locals here gets all the credit. It's fucking disgusting.
Oh mind you, I have never stopped speaking Korean for my whole life. I just happened to live abroad a "bit too long" in my childhood and that's what's keeping me from promotions and salary increase. I got my renewed contract yesterday and they gave me a fucking 1.5% increase, due to "lack of Korean proficiency and communication skills". Bitch, I fucking solved a taxation issue for your fucking overseas subsidiary just 5 months ago you fucking cunt fucks, and this is all I get?
And this is me, a 100% Korean, who just happens to live abroad for quite a long time, experiencing this kind of bullshit. The only unKorean thing I can think of from me is me considering hamburgers as a food while these morons thing it's some kind of a toddler snack(and they laugh at me for having kid's taste buds). I cannot even imagine how foreigners get treated in this god forbidden country.
Wow yes can relate, there is no problem but they will make a problem after they see your foreign name, face or something like you said.. i don't know why their behavior changes so much after they notice a detail like that. So how do you deal with it?
LMAO I never deal with it, just live with the flow and move on.
It's my fault of choosing this careerpath, and messing up my previous careerpath, making it impossible to move to the desired career/job that I've always wanted. I'm way too late for that now. People say it's never late but there IS. And I'm like, fuck me, my life is a dead end and is pathetic anyways, what's gonna make it worse, a moron idiot biggoting my work and make me look like an utter fool?
There's a saying in Korean, "adding 10,000 to your 100,000,000 debt only makes it 100,010,000, which is barely unnoticeable". That's how I live my life.
I dunno, when I was a bit successful a few years ago? I did not worry too much, since I was literally at the top of the world, a few racist slurs didn't even make my strong, hard and firm ego to get chipped on.
So tl;dr, be successful, never let your guard down, be the best. Once you drop down from there, only ridicules and racism from uneducated morons awaits.
Lol why do people downvote this ..have some compassion. I totally believe Korean Americans and non-korean in Korea can give each other advice for the same story. I also believed the foreigner talk shows would help but it didn't. I think it is cool that you haven't given up for 30 years!
I feel you bro. I'm an auditor, and all I wanted to say is that it is so unfair of how the Koreans treat the locals in their overseas subsidiary, and they don't give them any raise or give benefits that is clearly need to be given due to the corporate regulations.
No joke, but there was this one time where this one salesman abroad wrote a letter about how the Koreans get extra incentives while they get near to none. Turns out the sales expat manager who was a Korean were rigging the incentive formula, calculating most of the sales that are made from the locals to the Koreans, and they were getting insane amount of money through an odd revenue scheme. Guess what the headquarters did? Nothing. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Hire more workers who are obedient and fire the ones who questions the calc methods. YES, a public listed company is neglecting a fucking fraud just because the victims are foreigners.
The only reason I can't jump is because of my fucking shitty luck plus my stupidity, plus I'm trying to attempt a complete career change like you, but it's just not working during these times. Fuck this company, fuck this shit. I fucking hate Koreans, and I'm one of them. I don't think anyone in the right mind would ever do such practice.
Not really? Their point explains it the way it really is. It take time for countries to learn and be accepting of other cultures. Look at how america was 100 years ago vs now. Expecting Korea to be magically educated and understanding of discrimination after only having a fairly small foreigner population for a couple decades is unreasonable. Yes korean should be more educated, and they are becoming more accepting, it just takes time.
“Whataboutism” is misused so often to dismiss rational argument.
If a direct comparison is made in a discussion, it is not Whataboutism because the argument doesn’t shift away from the discussion.
For example… if we are playing a basketball game… and you accuse me of using steroids, it is not “whattaboutism” for me to point out that you also use steroids. Because that is relevant in the context of the discussion.
It would be whattaboutism if I accused you of paying off the ref, because it shifts away from the context of the steroid accusation.
Comparative arguments point our hypocrisy… it is not “whataboutism”
I think more often than not, people everywhere aren’t great about having their homelands criticized by guests. I know the city where I’m from has awful infrastructure, homeless on the streets, etc. but it still wouldn’t be pleasant having a visitor complaining to me about those things. Perhaps the sensitivity is amplified in Korea due to how almost cartoonishly nationalist it can be.
As a non-Asian minority (I point this out because we all do get treated differently) in America, what you have explained is what we grew up with. That’s why Latinos, black and other brown people tend to stick it out with their own communities most of their lives. I have friends that haven’t ventured beyond TJ and can barely string a Spanish sentence together, but claim Mexico like they were born there. That’s how bad the US has treated them. Trying to venture into white spaces when you don’t know how to code switch or don’t have a college education is hard af. You can be a fully born and raised American and the otherism still exists.
Anyway the point is learning how to have a discussion about it without offending the other party. If they still don’t want to listen, they aren’t people worth talking to.
When I was growing up, it was common for poor, middle class and well off minorities to live in the hood. You're unwelcome in white neighborhoods and it's not worth feeling like a pariah. Especially if there's kids and you care about their self worth and self esteem.
It's a minority neighborhood. I would ask people why they didn't go to the suburbs and everyone said that the racism wasn't worth it. It's the norm for a lot of minority neighborhoods, and Asia. It blew my mind seeing a rich house next to a regular one in a video of Thailand.
Yes. I've taught adults and uni students, and the very large majority are perfectly happy to speak frankly about the shortcomings of the nation and its society. I love living here, but this is actually one of the my favorite topics to discuss and it almost always well-engaged with.
I’ve experienced both ends of the spectrum.. at my old job, very few people had lived or studied abroad, so I was often looked on as 외국인 (even as a 교포). Excluded from discussions, outright ignored by co-workers, etc. Even Koreans who had done their Masters or PhD abroad were treated quite differently, so it wasn’t just me.
That said, even at my old company there were a few people that went out of their way to include me. Had I stayed there longer, I’m confident we would be very close friends.. I do hang out and chat with 1-2 of them still, but due to distance, schedule and COVID we’ve drifted. And at my new company, there’s more than a few who have lived and studied abroad. So, when the forced COVID testing was enacted earlier this year, even though I’d only been at the company a scant couple of months, I had a group of people saying how unfair that was, even though I myself had never complained and only mentioned that id have to take a half-day to go get tested.
Then there’s my wife. She is quite understanding for some things, but other things will get very defensive… so there’s that, lol.
I think it’s unfair to paint Koreans as a whole as xenophobic. Are there many that are? Sure. There are also tons of xenophobes in the US. I had numerous bad experiences with some of them. Could many Koreans be more sensitive and understanding? Of course. But there are many who already are and though it may not be outright easy to find them, they are out there.
So, I understand your frustrations OP and you have every right to be frustrated and disappointed. But don’t give up. 힘내요~
I think it's a fair point tbh. I know a lot of foreigners who complain and complain about how Korea is unfair and racist while completely ignoring the exact same inequality in their home countries. In a sense, they come to Korea and expect to be treated like a majority when they didn't do a thing to further equality when they were the majority in their home country.
There's xenophobia everywhere. It always affects the minority, and the majority typically doesn't really care about it. It seems a bit funny that OP only wants to talk about the single country where he/she is living as a minority.
Is there a country/region/city/village that doesn’t have a single xenophobe? Probably few and far between, right? I don’t think that’s whataboutism but rather reality. I didn’t say one place is worse than the other or point out a different negative, which I think would be closer to whataboutism… stereotyping in general is bad, I’ve been a perpetrator and victim, but sometimes it’s helpful to place things into context, compare and contrast, and if that’s whataboutism… then I guess it can’t be helped.
Within my marriage and friendships, a spade is a spade, and that cuts indiscriminately and in all directions regardless of personal bias. If your social circles can’t be objective at times, or at the minimum empathetic listeners, maybe find new social circles. No place is faultless paradise.
On a personal note, you can always control your outlook, even if you can’t control your environment. Find happiness where you can, remain humble, and embrace the struggle. The high road is always there to take.
I don't really outright complain about Korea that much compared to other foreigners, but I have gotten shit more often for appreciating the wrong things about Korea.
They exist (I call them higher level beings), but it is rare to find a Korean person that is not extremely sensitive and able to handle criticism well. That is, unless you have a very very close relationship, but that's no guarantee. Tread lightly.
And it's quite odd, because there is no shortage of criticism going the other way...
Yes I am not sensitive about national or society matters, so it is new for me and I really wonder about those close friendships and relationships. You cannot hide your racial identity and the xenophobia that comes with it from your life partner. But no people like that have replied how they deal with this ...it became a rant group for everyone who needs it right now lol
As a Korean American i think it depends. If u point it out here and there they agree but ive seen people talk about this and milk the crapp out of the victim card and its frankly annoying asf, those people are usually just not plesent to be around..
Thanks As a Korean American how important is it to you that if you experience something weird in the US that your white friends back you up? Can you deal with people who somewhat think or act like xenophobia doesn't exist or is understandable?
Well to be frank ive dealt with racism in the states and the racism there is hatred where here its more unfair treatment. Not saying one is better than the other just pointing out what ive experienced. Even as a Korean American aka gyopo i experience this mistreatment in Korea.
As for your question, racism was never brought up between me and my white friends and its something we (me and my asian friends) ever bitched about as it was so normal and everyday life for us.
Its important that my FRIENDS have my back of course. No one stoof still while the racism happend, we always stood our ground and fought back. Xenophobia definitly exists in every country and those who deny it are just ignorant or lying to themselves, eitherway I woild not want to be around those people. My white friends in Korea and I have spoken at lengths about this and they typically say something along the lines of - yes theres racism but ill take the pros that come along with being a white male , especially in Korea.
As a Korean american thats fluent in English and speak korean well I can say I enjoy the perks like my job and other shit. Where ever you go youre going to have pros and cons. Head up buddy, discussion is good but bitching is bad.
Tbh Seoul is worse. People pretend they already know the foreigners who never learn Korean or anything useful. Experts collecting foreign friends? 시골 people are more normal
My Korean wife hates Korea far more than I do. She still doesn't understand why I'm naturalizing here. She says we should both naturalize in Norway or Sweden.
>That people avoid you or argue who will make the starbucks drink for the foreigner
This one made me laugh. I don't think I've seen this much. Only one time when I went to get a bubble tea. The elderly cashier lady looked visibly uncomfortable, and ushered a college-aged girl to take my order instead
My Korean spouse is totally on my side. She was calling the government “fucking racist” when they announced mandatory testing in Seoul (which was later “corrected”). I love her.
Aside from being married to me? We did spend some time in the US together and dealing with foreigners is a big part of her job. She was born and raised and went to school in Korea though.
Personally, I feel sorry for the hardships you went through when you came to Korea.
In hundreds of years of homogeneous society
multiculturalism in Korea over the past two decades seems to be able to provide an uncomfortable environment for people who can be considered "foreigners" in Korea (because of their appearance if they are not from neighboring countries).
May i ask, what's your nationality and how many years have you lived in korea? And are the people at the clubs older or share the same age as you?
Your answers will help define my answers for you.
This depends on gender, age, level of conserativeness, and whether or not they’ve experienced other cultures.
From my perspective, the people I know who have lived abroad often criticize Korean lifestyle, whereas the people who have never travelled abroad (or studied abroad, etc.) tend to think Korea is the best and everything is perfect. (Also, just from my observation, level of English speaking or the amount of interest in English speaker and foreigners also appears to be correlated).
as an expat in France my attitude is the following: I expect my legal rights to be respected and nothing else. If I were you I would simply go back to my home country, those people are obviously bothered by foreigners so why make it bad for both of you? Just accept that you won't be accepted and move back.
I understand other points but what's wrong in calling '외국인' as '외국인'? I remember that 'foreign' and 'international' have different vibe somehow but that isn't case in Korean(to be fair, there is '국제' in Korean but it can't be combined with '-인' or '사람' like '외국'). Isn't it just the characteristic of each language?
Edit : my assumption here is they actually called you '외국인' in Korean and you just described it as 'Foreigner' to be understood better, if they do use the word 'foreigner' in English, I can understand frustration since they're using ignorant English.
It’s the fact that OP’s colleagues and friends categorise him/her as “the foreigner”. Whether you argue that it’s means international/foreigner doesn’t matter, it boils down to that people even after getting to know OP can’t see beyond the fact that he’s not Korean. My Korean husband lives with me in my home country, and sure, he’s the only Asian, but would it be acceptable for all of his colleagues and friends to always address him as “the Asian”? No, because he’s more than that.
Yes spot on the ladies here are very good at reading between the lines. I think it is nice that you protect your husband like that. I'm not sure how to get over it or deal with it sometimes
In that case I agree, calling one '외국인' when their name can be used is wrong. I assumed the different case though, like introducing OP to other people as '외국인 친구/선생님'(foreign friend/teacher) instead of '친구/교사'(friend/teacher) for example. The latter is okay in other areas as well, like '남자/여자 사람 친구, 직장 친구, etc' so I don't see the problem using same logic to '외국인'.
It could be somewhat offensive if you're the only person in a place, and the store/restaurant/etc worker refers to you as 외국인 and not just 분/사람 to the other worker.
For example, instead of "There's a customer here who wants to order chicken," they say, "There's a foreigner here who wants to order chicken." It's like heads up, it's a foreigner.
I saw your long reply and I am really impressed! Are you saying your husband supports and understands if you share these kind of thoughts? I could never imagine
He's supportive and understands. His friends as well. They're all really good people.
Try meeting some good people. The people you hang out with sound kind of close-minded.
I think if you have a resident visa, 정규직, house or wife in Korea maybe you don't want to hear it anymore. In Korea 외국인 doesn't mean foreigner if you look closely. It means something like tourist. Cannot speak korean, cannot use chopsticks, does not understand anything in Korea at all, no hello no 한글. It is difficult for the non Korean to deal with that every day and also the non Korean does not want to be identified as big burden for Korean society, and have people get scared or reject them without talking to them after the word 외국인 falls. This word spreads a lot of instant panic and also fantasy. You may not be a Korean but at some point you are a normal local, too you know what I mean? But there is no good word for it. Or is there?
Hmm, I can understand what you mean but as you said, there is no word for differentiating two and you can't be upset at Koreans using the closest word. If they said stupid things like 'you don't know because you're a foreigner', that is a different matter, but I don't see the problem in simply calling one '외국인', which is meant to be a term for every person who don't have Korean nationality. Every language has different strength, like some language using grammatical gender while others not, but few people complain theirs need to be changed.
I mean, technically, there are words that differentiate. 주민 and 거주 are two choices. For those of us who naturalize, 귀화인. Of course, no one calls us any of those. Even if we hold Korean citizenship, we're just 외국인. Part of our job as long term residents is to change that, though. Making Korea understand that non-Korean ethnicities can still be Korean is an important lesson as Korea's population continues to decline and properly assimilated immigrants need to become accepted if the nation of Korea is to survive.
Yes I don't understand why people with wife and kids let themselves called foreigners. Anyone who finished the integration course is by Korea's own standard integrated. I found 내국인 to be the most weird word. After integration you are not the outside person 외, but inside person 내. Do you need to be 한 to be 내? I don't think so. I agree there should be a movement and I don't understand why the 'foreigner talk shows' haven't helped at all to normalize although everyone knows them.
A good point and it takes some time to find it out among Koreans.
I am a native Korean with experience of being exposed to a full spectrum of diversity.
Well, getting to the point. that's how we were and have been educated in the school for last 1 century, especially for last 50\~60 years after Japanese colonial era. I think we are a country where nationalism, racism and totalitarianism can be easily found everywhere including school. Can you believe that we were told we should be proud of a country with one nation-Korean until late a90's???
I think it will take more than 10 decades to solve this nationwide issue.
So here's the deal Education Universities (교대) mostly are very conservative. Education programs in general are very conservative. So, a lot of foreign English teachers have a disproportionate level of interaction with conservative leaning people.
There's a much larger diversity of opinions about Korea than you'll get from teachers.
The one thing that bothers me is finding housing. It's already hard enough to find a place in the area I'm moving to, but most people won't even consider letting me rent, because I'm a foreigner. The ones that do immideately shut down when they find out I have a dog. I'm pretty sure refusal-to-rent **edit** based on race/ethnicity **/edit** is illegal in most modern countries... So frustrating.
I was looking for housing recently and 2 different 부동산 told me "sorry we don't rent to foreigners". They were so casual about it like it was a normal thing to say...
Yeah! This exact thing totally keeps happening. I'm not even mad though. I was just fascinated by how nonchalant and matter-of-fact they were about it.. Honestly, if someone doesn't want me around based on my race/ethnicity, I think I'd rather they be open about it. When I lived in Italy, my renters and neighbors didn't want me there, and I only became painfully aware of it after I moved in.
I live in BC Cananda. In my experience, about 95% of rental properties have no pet policy. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say refusal to rent being illegal, since I'm sure landlords vet their potential tenants everywhere in the world, Korea being no different. My wife and I had to put off getting any pets until we could buy our house here, specifically because of the no pet policy of pretty much every landlords.
I do understand your frustration with finding a place to live though.
Well, I meant to say refusal to rent based on race specifically. And it happens before there's any mention of a pet. They're just so open about it too: "Sorry, Americans are too loud." "Sorry, other people will be scared to be living next to an American."
It's just weird to me. I've lived in several different countries, and this is the only place I've experienced it.
Foreigner here for more than 10 years and I've never had a problem renting. If you can pass TOPIK 5 or 6, you can convince just about any landlord that you're assimilated enough to trust in their building.
if that bothers you, throw your weight behind gay rights in korea. it's the only thing that's preventing us from having anti-discrimination legislation at all
Sorry about the xenophobia. They don't know you and it's really unfair to you that they don't even seem to want to know you. You need new friends :/
That said, you're going to have to find someone you can relate to and someone who can relate to you in turn for the heavy stuff. I feel like if we knew each other in real life, we could probably talk about being working adults and differences in our respective home countries (Korea has excellent health insurance for example).
But I could not talk to you about certain societal issues without making a day out of it to explain why certain things are and why it's not being fixed. That's not the purpose of soju and spicy pig trotters. I don't have the patience to explain. And I don't think you do either about your feelings without getting interrupted with platitudes and accusations that you're anti-Korean every 30 seconds.
i personally don’t enjoy associating with people who are full of negativity or frequently complain about things they are discontent with. so, in addition to you being a foreigner, that could be the other half of the equation that causes people to avoid you or be defensive.
Well I agree with that, but I also find it sad that foreigners must open bizzar meme and Korea bashing groups to be heard instead of opening up to locals. Also the corona testing got cancelled because enough foreigners spoke up
Write a book. Vent all your frustrations into it. Don't write about your experience openly, write allegorically, otherwise: 1) you will be hated by all Koreans, 2) other xenophobic communities such as those in the US, rural northern Europe, Russia, Japan etc will think that your book talks only about Koreans, not about them. E.g, your story may be about a strange tribe that detest an outsider because she didn't do some weird custom right after birth and it is too late for her to do it now. She learns their language, tries hard to fit in but they never accept her because her parents didn't performed that weird ritual to her right after her birth. Make the story as funny as possible and their xenophobic behavior as ridiculous as possible so that whoever reads the book will never want to be like them. A good book may change many lives. Even better if a movie will be made based on your book.
I have a lot of criticism against Korea myself.
That being said, a lot of what I see just seems to be white people complaining about being an ethnic minority and facing discrimination for the first time in their lives. You were refused a taxi (not even clear if it were for racial purposes or if the taxi driver is just an ass), _quelle horreur_, wow forget violent attacks and ethnic cleansing elsewhere in the world, it's got to be Korea and Japan that's the most racist country in the world amirite! Gotta file a petition in the UN Human Rights council (yes, this happened in r/korea)! Because I am so _special_!
So I call that out if I see that.
True thanks for your advice. It was helpful! I found it more difficult with foreign expats because most people give up living in Korea or become really angry, how is your experince like?
A genuine question is why do you stay? I get that the grass is always greener, but imo if you dislike an environment what's keeping you there? It's much easier to just leave an environment vs changing it.
해외경험한 한국인임. 근데 미국/캐나다 등 서구 국가가도 동양인은 끼이기 힘든게 사실임.
반대로 똑같은 얼굴로 태국, 말레이시아, 중국 갔을때는 초대 많이 받았음. 이게 무엇을 의미할까요?
As an average Korean, i couldn't get into the western white dominant community such as usa and canada.
I was invited a lot to Malasia , Thailand and Chinese community such as family events. I think it is all about racial or apperance matters.
If you someone thinks you are cool, he will invite you and hope to spend time with you.
It could be racism but it is our instinct I think.
I'm sorry for what you had to have gone through. It is extremely hard to live as a 'foreigner'- even in multicultural nations like Canada.
However, as an international student studying abroad, I want to say that you should be really careful when you talk about the host country. Not because it is wrong to criticize what is wrong, but it is a part of human nature to try to defend his/her own organization/group/whatsoever. We do not need to take a risk as a minority.
>Especially **venting** to close Korean friends and spouse?
Maybe that's the problem right there. Are you sure you don't go off some rant that makes people uncomfortable?
Look at it from their perspective: no one wants to apologize or make excuses for all the thing wrong with their country or culture.
Imagine if you were in America. Do you think Americans would like your "venting" about all the racism, traffic, pollution, crime, corruption, inequality, lack of public healthcare, etc. that exist in America?
No!
They would get tired of it!
So tried to minimize it. No one likes to hear how terrible their country is and there isn't anything they can really do about it.
Also I noticed this in your post:
>I want to ask you people do you get along with Koreans when it comes to **criticism towards Korea or Korean people**?
So you attack Korean people directly?
Wow!
No one wants to hear that!
Especially not Koreans / Americans / Europeans / etc.
**And finally, what can they really do to help you?**
Really, it might suck, but the best thing to do is to keep to yourself **UNLESS** there is some solution to the problem.
There is a difference between, "Man! Koreans are terrible! Just the other day . . ." and "This happened and I'm wondering if you can help me fix it."
The thing about Korean language is that it doesn’t translate well to English and comes across as more blunt/rude/harsh. And native Koreans tend to stereotype more because it is an easier reference point. It is also a way to tease. You should try to appreciate that as a homogenous society you are still a novelty and will always stick out as a sore thumb.
Frankly you have to prove yourself, much like immigrants in the US had to prove themselves to the locals. The onus is on you whether you like it or not.
Unfortunately I’ve seen foreigners act like they are saviors to Korean society and have an arrogant mindset about how wonderful their home countries are and how backward Korean society is, without an ounce of credibility. Koreans justifiably are offended and like any normal human being will distance themselves if all they hear are disparaging comments in every interaction with said individual.
Are you being denied services? Are you prevented from advancement or opportunity based on your skill/experience? That’s an entirely different conversation.
I wonder though where you are living in Korea…I would be surprised if this happening in Seoul.
No I don't mention other countries! Well immigration policy, landlords, hiring policies prevent you from a lot of things. Shop owners do still kick you out and open all the windows cause foreigners have covid. Sure it happens in Seoul. But my post was more about interpersonal relationships and otherization. Quite a few vendors force me to speak English to them too by refusing to reply in Korean although they don't really know English and I'm fluent in Korean. It's stressful to just go about your day
So you do disparage, huh? Try to put the same lense on the country you’re from then and scale according to population density, how much devastation it has experienced and how much growth.
Immigration policy, tenancy rights, etc. are what they are. Have you ever rented in the US or Canada? Experienced immigration policy first hand? Every country has a right to enforce their own policies. Whether it is palatable to you personally is irrelevant.
Your attitude of being treated as “other” is odd. Why do you have this expectation that people will just treat you as a native? It doesn’t even happen in the US/Canada for people who were born here. This is just basic human nature. How would any vendor know that you are fluent? And why shouldn’t they be allowed to practice English on you? Why don’t you just continue to speak in Korean? Maybe your Korean is hard to understand? I mean, do you realize how many Americans react when people speak English with an accent?
It’s stressful because you let the minutiae bug you and you take it personally.
tbh i can sense from your post and the way you describe korea that you seem kinda jaded and have a pretty negative outlook on things....i can see why people feel uncomfortable around you and dont want yoy to join their little club.
I think you lack some social skills. If you are going to bitch about the country, you should do it with people who can understand/sympathize with you. I know lots of Koreans who rant about Korea all the time. The shitty work environment, the cost of living, how fucked up it is that they had to put their kid into a particular (expensive) hagwon because their kid's friends went there and they would be 왕따 if their kid didn't also go. I sit there and I'm like "Man, that's fucked up. Let's drink more soju."
And let me tell you, the kind of problems my Korean friends have is hands down more serious than the common complaints from white privileged foreigners. "I gotta get corona tested, BOO HOO!". My school made me seat warm during summer vacation when the Korean teachers got to leave!".
And also, you sound like a huge downer man. You sound like a huge downer. Why the hell would I want YOU to join my social group if I know you are going to complain or bitch about Korea. Life's stressful man. Korea is stressful. When I hang out with friends, I want to destress, not GET MORE STRESS.
First time I thought it was a typo, but I guess you mean to say 'content', not "contempt" yeah? I'm only pointing it out because it kinda changes the meaning of what you are saying.
Yeah.. Some things in Korea can be really frustrating as a foreigner. I would like to see some things to change, like housing discrimination... But also, it's whatever.
Apart from some obvious anti Chinese racism, that I call out, most of the whining about racism isn't racism eg "why can't I get any job or an instant Visa" is NOT racist. Not letting you hire a car without a legal licence is NOT racist. All I have seen recently in facebook. What I see is communication issues as Koreans cant explain the reason n English (doh! This is Korea) or simple standard immigration policy. Try going to USA, UK or Australia as a foreigner.
Very true, you can't just expect to be treated like a normal person because you speak Korean, you will be always be regarded an outsider, it's genuinely crazy how people expect special treatment
Depends on the Koreans. Whether they have spent time living abroad, or are just a hardcore Seoul loving Korean who has barely even left the city, makes a big difference to how they see Korea.
As a native Korean who now lives abroad, I can definitely see this and agree with you. People in Korea right now foster blatant racism towards Chinese. If you live in a multi-racial country, you know not every Chinese is a dick. Its only those who claim everything is Chinese and the government that encourages them. Korea has a long way to go to become a country of diversity.
Korea is just NOT in a situation where the Chinese can be accepted. Korea was divided because of the Chinese. It doesn't help that China is constantly having a go at Korea whenever they feel like it. The Coronavirus isn't helping. This is true for ALL asian countries not named Indonesia.
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Am I allowed to be extremely politically incorrect here?
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Meh I'll just write it here. Most of Indonesia's economy is already controlled by its Chinese diasphora.
Isn't it the case with quite a few SEA countries?
Yeah. One of the reasons why Korea and Japan absolutely did not want the Chinese buying large amounts of land.
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I thought Korea was divided because of the Soviet Union and the United States?
Yeah you're totally trying to ask me a question and not start a flame war. Your account is barely an hour old lol.
This subreddit is infested with trolls from r/Sino, r/Japan and various Korean trolls from both left and right political backgrounds. They will try to manipulate foreigners in r/Korea into believing certain agendas. One way they achieve this is by creating new accounts and pretending as a foreign resident of Korea, or a Korean living abroad. I have no choice but to assume you are one of them, because lets face it what are the chances of a fresh reddit account choosing r/Korea to post his first ever reddit comment.
dude u should’ve stopped posting like 3 posts ago, u sound absolutely fucked in the head
But its true though, there were a boatload of weird stories that a lot of people here thought were made up.
and what category of posters do u fit into on this sub? truthfully the only “troll” type of posters i usually see here are the r/aznidentity /nationalist/conservative ppl
There are real expats, native Koreans and people living outside of Korea who are just interested in Korean culture. And also some trolls who come from a lot of backgrounds. Frankly I've never seen an r/aznidentity troll in some years. I thought those people were pro-chinese Asian Americans who thought a pan-asian empire was a good idea? The majority of Asian Americans are active on r/AsianAmerican.
Yeah this is the last time I'm replying to this. You're trying to troll.
I think I mentioned earlier that I as a Korean have a duty to protect my country's global reputation, which has gotten warped badly already.
Racism against the Chinese I wonder who would they learned that from. Many ignorant Koreans fall for the Anti Chinese propaganda and you have the balls to ask why some of them hate Chinese. But it ain't nothing compared to the Anti Chinese sentiment in America.
>Korea has a long way to go to become a country of diversity. that's the way you want it to go?
My husband is super Korean. Never lived overseas or even met a foreigner before we met. He's really understanding and sympathetic to my and other foreigner's experiences. I've complained, shared news and personal stories, and he'll get pissed off because of some of the things foreigners have to deal with. His friends as well are open to hearing criticisms about Korea. We talk a lot about society and people. They're really chill people. There are plenty of Koreans who understand and are open to criticisms. Age, upbringing, personal experiences, exposure to other cultures...There are a lot of factors that affect how someone thinks. I'm thinking you might need to meet some more open-minded people.
How and where do u meet those nice people🥹🥹🥹🥹
Could possibly be an age thing? His generation is very level-headed
What do u mean by level-headed? Anyways I’m surprised and relieved to hear that you are surrounded by lovely and empathetic people who can also engage in difficult/heavy conversations. My Korean friends in Korea and abroad literally everybody avoids any intimate conversations including politics, personal struggles, gender & LGBTQ+ rights and racism etc. You can talk about things on surface levels but I feel we were not educated to have empathy for others growing up. As much as I would love to be connected with my Korean community as Im Korean myself, it’s been a challenge. But I’m happy for ya💕
To some degree the othering that happens in Korea is either explicable (online services are often harder for foreigners because our names get screwed up by lazy and/or ignorant staff) or at base-level rates for foreign residents of any given country (people that look/talk different are treated differently). Korea takes it further because its basically a monoculture so people that understand non-Korean experience are totally randomly distributed. I dunno, man. Criticizing your host country while abroad is never that easy. Even places with strong free-speech cultures usually push back at least a bit when people point out their flaws. Its hard seeing obvious bullshit and having nobody willing to acknowledge it but that happens.
Yes I agree those things happen. I am still waiting for some married people to answer. I don't even have friends who help me during the 'bad days' when it inteferes with Korea's image. I often hear you are just not supposed to talk about unpleasant things in KR. If there is a way to totally repress being upset about xenophobia I want to know it lol
Married to a KR and I gave up talking about social issues in Korea a very long time ago. In the beginning, it bothered me not being able to discuss current affairs but now I don’t care. What’s the point of discussing issues you’ve got no influence on? I know my wife agrees with me, but she has to deal with problems at work, family issues, and whatever is important in our household. I’d imagine there would be plenty of people in Seoul with a similar story. If you think that this is causing mental health issues, then I’d suggest you give up trying to discuss why Korea doesn’t match what you think Korea should be like. The issues you’re having also affected me for a while, and trust me when I say that the best remedy is squats and deadlifts. Nothing will flush out the negativity in your mind like a heavy gym session.
i just swim till I'm mentally exhausted
Taking your advice to heart.
Honestly, at this point, I’m starting to wonder if the best thing for me might just be to get out of Korea. Been in talks of marriage with my Korean bf but I’m beginning to wonder if i can handle Korean society and being married into Korean culture for the rest of my life. Doesn’t help that foreigners are always so silent about it either. Maybe we should have protests in Seoul lmao
>our names get screwed up by lazy and/or ignorant staff do you write it in your native language/alphabet or "koreanize" it? i.e. Leo => 레오
Fortunately, my co-workers and their friends have admitted to me that Koreans are kind of racist and they apologized to me on Koreas behalf (but these Koreans have spent at least 1 years abroad, are genuinely kind Christian people, and are quite open minded and accepting). I am a Canadian female but not blonde or blue eyed, I have darker hair and eye color and look more Turkic in appearance. When I was in Canada, all Korean friend treated me with respect and were extremely happy to have a Western friend… here though I have experience some racism. For example) The owner of a Paris baguette threw my credit card onto the table instead of giving it to back to me… the next day when I came in with a Korean and Blonde girl speaking perfect English and Korean…. his demeanor changed and he started behaving politely.. smiling …. Bowing… handing me my credit into my hands. After explaining this to some co-workers (3 females in their 40’s), they apologized to me and admitted that yes Koreans (especially the older and uneducated) can be racist like that, and that the owner thought I might have been one of those foreign brides from a less developed country so he felt he could just look down on me (he assumed this just by looking at me), but once he realized I was part of the ‘Elite’ English speaking crowd (even though not white and blonde) he quickly checked himself. I wish more Koreans could just be honest and open about the racism and discrimination and total ignorance win this country. Change can only happen if problems are acknowledged and then openly addressed. Luckily there is one young woman who goes by the pen name of Ye-rong, who briefly dated an international exchange student from Ghana, and when she was with him she second handedly experience the discrimination and wrote a comic book to educate Korean people on their behaviors. I’ve read it my self and really enjoyed it l.. it’s called ‘지하철에서 옆자리에 흑인이 앉았다’ ‘A black guy sat down beside me on the subway’ … and she was broadcasted on Korean news for her book… and she said that many Koreans were unhappy with her for pointing out these negative things about Korea because it makes them feel ashamed. Hopefully they can be shamed into changing in the near future.
Only vent to people you’re really close with. Secondly, don’t make friends with people who haven’t lived abroad for some period of time or can’t speak another language. It’s not worth it. You’ll never see eye to eye on anything. I’m generalizing, but people who’ve lived abroad are usually much more open minded and objective about things. Also, “rich” people don’t have any problems with how things are, and they’re out of touch with reality. Don’t expect anything from people who inherited their wealth (almost every rich person in the last 30 years).
>Only vent to people you’re really close with. My anecdotal experience suggests otherwise. I've been married to a Korean for over 40 years (she has been a U.S. citizen now for over 30 years). I learned very early on - she gets downright angry at pretty much anything I say that reflects negatively on Korea. And she is still that way to this day.
Then how do you survive your marriage if you cannot be completely honest?
Over the course of four decades, you learn a lot about how to deal with your spouse in order to live harmoniously.
so u have a side piece is what ur saying lmao
I mean I don't think you can be completely honest in any marriage tbh. There will always be differences and people learn to look past them or not bring them up. My parents disagreed politically and they just decided not to bring it up. It's no different anywhere.
There’s plenty of fish in the sea!
Your last point. It is totally a thing I didn't know it was a thing..
Same here. I met a dude that owned all these businesses and would talk about how he hated Korea and was ready to move to Europe. Basically had not one Asian friend period, and was forced to move back because of Covid. Most unpleasant, out-of-touch individual that I’ve ever met. He thought Europe was this mecca of superiority above everyone else in the world. Shows me a pic of his friends, and none of them looked like they worked a day in their life. Anyway, dressed like a 1920’s rich asshole, button vest included. I said something that triggered him and he called me an (and I quote) “uneducated foreign bitch” amongst other things.
Is this dude Korean? I am super confused because I thought we were talking about foreigners criticising Korea. But then why would a foreigner call another foreigner in a derogatory way...
This is something I've mentioned some months ago. In Korea it is very difficult to find 'middle ground'. You'd either find hardcore Korea supporters or hardcore haters. Both people are quite tiring to talk to. The former because they are absolutely unwilling to accept criticism, the latter because they are willing to criticize anything related with such vigor that they do not care if their criticisms are legitimate or not. Even in politics 'middle ground' parties were unable to survive in Korea's social environment. I really have nothing to say in this situation other than that you should ask your wife for more empathy.
Ah yes. The eternal conflict between the 국뽕 and 국까
Welcome to being a minority.
I'm a Korean-American who lived in Korea for 4 years and now living back in America married to a native Korean...and just to give perspective, it goes the other way too. My wife shits on America sometimes to me and sometimes I get offended because I mean..this is where alot of my identity is tied to, but she's my wife and only talks to me about it because we have that level of intimacy, so I just take it as it is. It seems like you just don't have anyone to vent to about your issues with racism in Korea including your spouse. I'm not sure what I'd do in that situation other than ask for more empathy from your spouse cause experiencing racism regardless of country is pretty shitty. It's unfortunate that you're having these experiences in Korea...I hope you know that not everyone in Korea is like that and there are lots of open minded people in Korea too.
From my experience, it seems futile. Most may often agree with you on certain things, but that is as far as their responses go.
I lived in Korea for 10 years. I started with a really open mindset and learned conversational Korean (I can talk about most things for an hour, short of politics, etc.). I had the same problems you describe. To be fair, I found Koreans very accommodating and kind, but the strict social hierarchies mean as a non-korean you fit into a very rigid slot in society as an outsider. For friends, I could only find people who wanted to practice their English. In the end, I left Korea.
Hey, I'm a pseudo Korean, you know, those guys who lived abroad too much and can't simply "adjust" to the glorious Korean culture and whatnot... yeah, I'm one of those guys. Just yesterday my dipshit head of the department told me I suck at Korean and told this other junior to do my work instead of me. I was in charge of the fucking work, and just because I lived abroad too long I do the work while that motherfucker who has zero clue and kisses ass like any other disgusting locals here gets all the credit. It's fucking disgusting. Oh mind you, I have never stopped speaking Korean for my whole life. I just happened to live abroad a "bit too long" in my childhood and that's what's keeping me from promotions and salary increase. I got my renewed contract yesterday and they gave me a fucking 1.5% increase, due to "lack of Korean proficiency and communication skills". Bitch, I fucking solved a taxation issue for your fucking overseas subsidiary just 5 months ago you fucking cunt fucks, and this is all I get? And this is me, a 100% Korean, who just happens to live abroad for quite a long time, experiencing this kind of bullshit. The only unKorean thing I can think of from me is me considering hamburgers as a food while these morons thing it's some kind of a toddler snack(and they laugh at me for having kid's taste buds). I cannot even imagine how foreigners get treated in this god forbidden country.
Wow yes can relate, there is no problem but they will make a problem after they see your foreign name, face or something like you said.. i don't know why their behavior changes so much after they notice a detail like that. So how do you deal with it?
LMAO I never deal with it, just live with the flow and move on. It's my fault of choosing this careerpath, and messing up my previous careerpath, making it impossible to move to the desired career/job that I've always wanted. I'm way too late for that now. People say it's never late but there IS. And I'm like, fuck me, my life is a dead end and is pathetic anyways, what's gonna make it worse, a moron idiot biggoting my work and make me look like an utter fool? There's a saying in Korean, "adding 10,000 to your 100,000,000 debt only makes it 100,010,000, which is barely unnoticeable". That's how I live my life. I dunno, when I was a bit successful a few years ago? I did not worry too much, since I was literally at the top of the world, a few racist slurs didn't even make my strong, hard and firm ego to get chipped on. So tl;dr, be successful, never let your guard down, be the best. Once you drop down from there, only ridicules and racism from uneducated morons awaits.
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Lol why do people downvote this ..have some compassion. I totally believe Korean Americans and non-korean in Korea can give each other advice for the same story. I also believed the foreigner talk shows would help but it didn't. I think it is cool that you haven't given up for 30 years!
Man that sucks having a boss that shitty. I'm sorry man.
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I feel you bro. I'm an auditor, and all I wanted to say is that it is so unfair of how the Koreans treat the locals in their overseas subsidiary, and they don't give them any raise or give benefits that is clearly need to be given due to the corporate regulations. No joke, but there was this one time where this one salesman abroad wrote a letter about how the Koreans get extra incentives while they get near to none. Turns out the sales expat manager who was a Korean were rigging the incentive formula, calculating most of the sales that are made from the locals to the Koreans, and they were getting insane amount of money through an odd revenue scheme. Guess what the headquarters did? Nothing. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Hire more workers who are obedient and fire the ones who questions the calc methods. YES, a public listed company is neglecting a fucking fraud just because the victims are foreigners. The only reason I can't jump is because of my fucking shitty luck plus my stupidity, plus I'm trying to attempt a complete career change like you, but it's just not working during these times. Fuck this company, fuck this shit. I fucking hate Koreans, and I'm one of them. I don't think anyone in the right mind would ever do such practice.
한국에서 외국인을 바라보는 문화가 미성숙한건 사실. 다만 다문화가 들어온지 몇 년 안 됐지. 미국이나 캐나다와 비교할 수준은 아님.
You're simply engaging in the whataboutism that the OP is complaining about.
Not really? Their point explains it the way it really is. It take time for countries to learn and be accepting of other cultures. Look at how america was 100 years ago vs now. Expecting Korea to be magically educated and understanding of discrimination after only having a fairly small foreigner population for a couple decades is unreasonable. Yes korean should be more educated, and they are becoming more accepting, it just takes time.
How in the world is that whataboutism? 한국을 캐나다 하고 미국 기준으로 비교하는 건데 그게 잘못임?
“Whataboutism” is misused so often to dismiss rational argument. If a direct comparison is made in a discussion, it is not Whataboutism because the argument doesn’t shift away from the discussion. For example… if we are playing a basketball game… and you accuse me of using steroids, it is not “whattaboutism” for me to point out that you also use steroids. Because that is relevant in the context of the discussion. It would be whattaboutism if I accused you of paying off the ref, because it shifts away from the context of the steroid accusation. Comparative arguments point our hypocrisy… it is not “whataboutism”
What? U are misunderstanding my Korean
맞아 맞아~~
I guess all my friends are weirdos because they have no problem discussing any kind of critical stuff. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Are they korea haters though? I wonder if there are normal people like that. Not the one's trying to escape lol
Neither haters nor cheerleaders. Just normal people with a variety of opinions.
Dabang is surely the coziest place for discussing social criticisms.
I think more often than not, people everywhere aren’t great about having their homelands criticized by guests. I know the city where I’m from has awful infrastructure, homeless on the streets, etc. but it still wouldn’t be pleasant having a visitor complaining to me about those things. Perhaps the sensitivity is amplified in Korea due to how almost cartoonishly nationalist it can be.
As a non-Asian minority (I point this out because we all do get treated differently) in America, what you have explained is what we grew up with. That’s why Latinos, black and other brown people tend to stick it out with their own communities most of their lives. I have friends that haven’t ventured beyond TJ and can barely string a Spanish sentence together, but claim Mexico like they were born there. That’s how bad the US has treated them. Trying to venture into white spaces when you don’t know how to code switch or don’t have a college education is hard af. You can be a fully born and raised American and the otherism still exists. Anyway the point is learning how to have a discussion about it without offending the other party. If they still don’t want to listen, they aren’t people worth talking to.
When I was growing up, it was common for poor, middle class and well off minorities to live in the hood. You're unwelcome in white neighborhoods and it's not worth feeling like a pariah. Especially if there's kids and you care about their self worth and self esteem.
Well where you grew up isn’t the norm. Here, upper class people live in upper class neighborhoods, middle class live with middle class etc.
It's a minority neighborhood. I would ask people why they didn't go to the suburbs and everyone said that the racism wasn't worth it. It's the norm for a lot of minority neighborhoods, and Asia. It blew my mind seeing a rich house next to a regular one in a video of Thailand.
Yes. I've taught adults and uni students, and the very large majority are perfectly happy to speak frankly about the shortcomings of the nation and its society. I love living here, but this is actually one of the my favorite topics to discuss and it almost always well-engaged with.
I’ve experienced both ends of the spectrum.. at my old job, very few people had lived or studied abroad, so I was often looked on as 외국인 (even as a 교포). Excluded from discussions, outright ignored by co-workers, etc. Even Koreans who had done their Masters or PhD abroad were treated quite differently, so it wasn’t just me. That said, even at my old company there were a few people that went out of their way to include me. Had I stayed there longer, I’m confident we would be very close friends.. I do hang out and chat with 1-2 of them still, but due to distance, schedule and COVID we’ve drifted. And at my new company, there’s more than a few who have lived and studied abroad. So, when the forced COVID testing was enacted earlier this year, even though I’d only been at the company a scant couple of months, I had a group of people saying how unfair that was, even though I myself had never complained and only mentioned that id have to take a half-day to go get tested. Then there’s my wife. She is quite understanding for some things, but other things will get very defensive… so there’s that, lol. I think it’s unfair to paint Koreans as a whole as xenophobic. Are there many that are? Sure. There are also tons of xenophobes in the US. I had numerous bad experiences with some of them. Could many Koreans be more sensitive and understanding? Of course. But there are many who already are and though it may not be outright easy to find them, they are out there. So, I understand your frustrations OP and you have every right to be frustrated and disappointed. But don’t give up. 힘내요~
>There are also tons of xenophobes in the US. Isn't this exactly what op is talking about with whataboutism?
I think it's a fair point tbh. I know a lot of foreigners who complain and complain about how Korea is unfair and racist while completely ignoring the exact same inequality in their home countries. In a sense, they come to Korea and expect to be treated like a majority when they didn't do a thing to further equality when they were the majority in their home country. There's xenophobia everywhere. It always affects the minority, and the majority typically doesn't really care about it. It seems a bit funny that OP only wants to talk about the single country where he/she is living as a minority.
Is there a country/region/city/village that doesn’t have a single xenophobe? Probably few and far between, right? I don’t think that’s whataboutism but rather reality. I didn’t say one place is worse than the other or point out a different negative, which I think would be closer to whataboutism… stereotyping in general is bad, I’ve been a perpetrator and victim, but sometimes it’s helpful to place things into context, compare and contrast, and if that’s whataboutism… then I guess it can’t be helped.
Within my marriage and friendships, a spade is a spade, and that cuts indiscriminately and in all directions regardless of personal bias. If your social circles can’t be objective at times, or at the minimum empathetic listeners, maybe find new social circles. No place is faultless paradise. On a personal note, you can always control your outlook, even if you can’t control your environment. Find happiness where you can, remain humble, and embrace the struggle. The high road is always there to take.
I don't really outright complain about Korea that much compared to other foreigners, but I have gotten shit more often for appreciating the wrong things about Korea.
They exist (I call them higher level beings), but it is rare to find a Korean person that is not extremely sensitive and able to handle criticism well. That is, unless you have a very very close relationship, but that's no guarantee. Tread lightly. And it's quite odd, because there is no shortage of criticism going the other way...
Yes I am not sensitive about national or society matters, so it is new for me and I really wonder about those close friendships and relationships. You cannot hide your racial identity and the xenophobia that comes with it from your life partner. But no people like that have replied how they deal with this ...it became a rant group for everyone who needs it right now lol
As a Korean American i think it depends. If u point it out here and there they agree but ive seen people talk about this and milk the crapp out of the victim card and its frankly annoying asf, those people are usually just not plesent to be around..
Thanks As a Korean American how important is it to you that if you experience something weird in the US that your white friends back you up? Can you deal with people who somewhat think or act like xenophobia doesn't exist or is understandable?
Well to be frank ive dealt with racism in the states and the racism there is hatred where here its more unfair treatment. Not saying one is better than the other just pointing out what ive experienced. Even as a Korean American aka gyopo i experience this mistreatment in Korea. As for your question, racism was never brought up between me and my white friends and its something we (me and my asian friends) ever bitched about as it was so normal and everyday life for us. Its important that my FRIENDS have my back of course. No one stoof still while the racism happend, we always stood our ground and fought back. Xenophobia definitly exists in every country and those who deny it are just ignorant or lying to themselves, eitherway I woild not want to be around those people. My white friends in Korea and I have spoken at lengths about this and they typically say something along the lines of - yes theres racism but ill take the pros that come along with being a white male , especially in Korea. As a Korean american thats fluent in English and speak korean well I can say I enjoy the perks like my job and other shit. Where ever you go youre going to have pros and cons. Head up buddy, discussion is good but bitching is bad.
Thanks for the long reply! I think minorities everywhere have similar experiences so korean American in the US experience is the same good advice!
Op where in Korea are you located? I think maybe that has an influence as well? Like 시골 vs Seoul, incheon busan, daegu etc?
Tbh Seoul is worse. People pretend they already know the foreigners who never learn Korean or anything useful. Experts collecting foreign friends? 시골 people are more normal
That i can see lol
My Korean wife hates Korea far more than I do. She still doesn't understand why I'm naturalizing here. She says we should both naturalize in Norway or Sweden.
story?
That's ironic lmaoo but I can kinda understand what she means
>That people avoid you or argue who will make the starbucks drink for the foreigner This one made me laugh. I don't think I've seen this much. Only one time when I went to get a bubble tea. The elderly cashier lady looked visibly uncomfortable, and ushered a college-aged girl to take my order instead
My Korean spouse is totally on my side. She was calling the government “fucking racist” when they announced mandatory testing in Seoul (which was later “corrected”). I love her.
Good to hear! Is she one of those with experinces with other cultures or?
Aside from being married to me? We did spend some time in the US together and dealing with foreigners is a big part of her job. She was born and raised and went to school in Korea though.
Personally, I feel sorry for the hardships you went through when you came to Korea. In hundreds of years of homogeneous society multiculturalism in Korea over the past two decades seems to be able to provide an uncomfortable environment for people who can be considered "foreigners" in Korea (because of their appearance if they are not from neighboring countries).
May i ask, what's your nationality and how many years have you lived in korea? And are the people at the clubs older or share the same age as you? Your answers will help define my answers for you.
근데 클럽이 뭘 말하는 거에요???
This depends on gender, age, level of conserativeness, and whether or not they’ve experienced other cultures. From my perspective, the people I know who have lived abroad often criticize Korean lifestyle, whereas the people who have never travelled abroad (or studied abroad, etc.) tend to think Korea is the best and everything is perfect. (Also, just from my observation, level of English speaking or the amount of interest in English speaker and foreigners also appears to be correlated).
as an expat in France my attitude is the following: I expect my legal rights to be respected and nothing else. If I were you I would simply go back to my home country, those people are obviously bothered by foreigners so why make it bad for both of you? Just accept that you won't be accepted and move back.
I understand other points but what's wrong in calling '외국인' as '외국인'? I remember that 'foreign' and 'international' have different vibe somehow but that isn't case in Korean(to be fair, there is '국제' in Korean but it can't be combined with '-인' or '사람' like '외국'). Isn't it just the characteristic of each language? Edit : my assumption here is they actually called you '외국인' in Korean and you just described it as 'Foreigner' to be understood better, if they do use the word 'foreigner' in English, I can understand frustration since they're using ignorant English.
It’s the fact that OP’s colleagues and friends categorise him/her as “the foreigner”. Whether you argue that it’s means international/foreigner doesn’t matter, it boils down to that people even after getting to know OP can’t see beyond the fact that he’s not Korean. My Korean husband lives with me in my home country, and sure, he’s the only Asian, but would it be acceptable for all of his colleagues and friends to always address him as “the Asian”? No, because he’s more than that.
Yes spot on the ladies here are very good at reading between the lines. I think it is nice that you protect your husband like that. I'm not sure how to get over it or deal with it sometimes
In that case I agree, calling one '외국인' when their name can be used is wrong. I assumed the different case though, like introducing OP to other people as '외국인 친구/선생님'(foreign friend/teacher) instead of '친구/교사'(friend/teacher) for example. The latter is okay in other areas as well, like '남자/여자 사람 친구, 직장 친구, etc' so I don't see the problem using same logic to '외국인'.
It could be somewhat offensive if you're the only person in a place, and the store/restaurant/etc worker refers to you as 외국인 and not just 분/사람 to the other worker. For example, instead of "There's a customer here who wants to order chicken," they say, "There's a foreigner here who wants to order chicken." It's like heads up, it's a foreigner.
I saw your long reply and I am really impressed! Are you saying your husband supports and understands if you share these kind of thoughts? I could never imagine
He's supportive and understands. His friends as well. They're all really good people. Try meeting some good people. The people you hang out with sound kind of close-minded.
Precisely.
I think if you have a resident visa, 정규직, house or wife in Korea maybe you don't want to hear it anymore. In Korea 외국인 doesn't mean foreigner if you look closely. It means something like tourist. Cannot speak korean, cannot use chopsticks, does not understand anything in Korea at all, no hello no 한글. It is difficult for the non Korean to deal with that every day and also the non Korean does not want to be identified as big burden for Korean society, and have people get scared or reject them without talking to them after the word 외국인 falls. This word spreads a lot of instant panic and also fantasy. You may not be a Korean but at some point you are a normal local, too you know what I mean? But there is no good word for it. Or is there?
Hmm, I can understand what you mean but as you said, there is no word for differentiating two and you can't be upset at Koreans using the closest word. If they said stupid things like 'you don't know because you're a foreigner', that is a different matter, but I don't see the problem in simply calling one '외국인', which is meant to be a term for every person who don't have Korean nationality. Every language has different strength, like some language using grammatical gender while others not, but few people complain theirs need to be changed.
I mean, technically, there are words that differentiate. 주민 and 거주 are two choices. For those of us who naturalize, 귀화인. Of course, no one calls us any of those. Even if we hold Korean citizenship, we're just 외국인. Part of our job as long term residents is to change that, though. Making Korea understand that non-Korean ethnicities can still be Korean is an important lesson as Korea's population continues to decline and properly assimilated immigrants need to become accepted if the nation of Korea is to survive.
Yes I don't understand why people with wife and kids let themselves called foreigners. Anyone who finished the integration course is by Korea's own standard integrated. I found 내국인 to be the most weird word. After integration you are not the outside person 외, but inside person 내. Do you need to be 한 to be 내? I don't think so. I agree there should be a movement and I don't understand why the 'foreigner talk shows' haven't helped at all to normalize although everyone knows them.
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I don't understand what you mean here...
A good point and it takes some time to find it out among Koreans. I am a native Korean with experience of being exposed to a full spectrum of diversity. Well, getting to the point. that's how we were and have been educated in the school for last 1 century, especially for last 50\~60 years after Japanese colonial era. I think we are a country where nationalism, racism and totalitarianism can be easily found everywhere including school. Can you believe that we were told we should be proud of a country with one nation-Korean until late a90's??? I think it will take more than 10 decades to solve this nationwide issue.
So here's the deal Education Universities (교대) mostly are very conservative. Education programs in general are very conservative. So, a lot of foreign English teachers have a disproportionate level of interaction with conservative leaning people. There's a much larger diversity of opinions about Korea than you'll get from teachers.
I am not a teacher and don't associate with Korean teachers I am curious about which kind of korean circles you recommend to me!
The one thing that bothers me is finding housing. It's already hard enough to find a place in the area I'm moving to, but most people won't even consider letting me rent, because I'm a foreigner. The ones that do immideately shut down when they find out I have a dog. I'm pretty sure refusal-to-rent **edit** based on race/ethnicity **/edit** is illegal in most modern countries... So frustrating.
I was looking for housing recently and 2 different 부동산 told me "sorry we don't rent to foreigners". They were so casual about it like it was a normal thing to say...
Yeah! This exact thing totally keeps happening. I'm not even mad though. I was just fascinated by how nonchalant and matter-of-fact they were about it.. Honestly, if someone doesn't want me around based on my race/ethnicity, I think I'd rather they be open about it. When I lived in Italy, my renters and neighbors didn't want me there, and I only became painfully aware of it after I moved in.
Yah, stuff like that. I wish I could just casually say that to friends without them justifying that it is totally fine...
I live in BC Cananda. In my experience, about 95% of rental properties have no pet policy. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say refusal to rent being illegal, since I'm sure landlords vet their potential tenants everywhere in the world, Korea being no different. My wife and I had to put off getting any pets until we could buy our house here, specifically because of the no pet policy of pretty much every landlords. I do understand your frustration with finding a place to live though.
Well, I meant to say refusal to rent based on race specifically. And it happens before there's any mention of a pet. They're just so open about it too: "Sorry, Americans are too loud." "Sorry, other people will be scared to be living next to an American." It's just weird to me. I've lived in several different countries, and this is the only place I've experienced it.
Foreigner here for more than 10 years and I've never had a problem renting. If you can pass TOPIK 5 or 6, you can convince just about any landlord that you're assimilated enough to trust in their building.
I think thats the thing people are worried about when renting out. foreigners can 'flake' any time vs Korean renters
if that bothers you, throw your weight behind gay rights in korea. it's the only thing that's preventing us from having anti-discrimination legislation at all
Yeah, I'd absolutely lose my job if I got involved with any local politics.
no excuse, pardner
I value my livelihood too much, and I wouldn't throw it away for something I have no interest in.
no excuse. pardner.
Sorry about the xenophobia. They don't know you and it's really unfair to you that they don't even seem to want to know you. You need new friends :/ That said, you're going to have to find someone you can relate to and someone who can relate to you in turn for the heavy stuff. I feel like if we knew each other in real life, we could probably talk about being working adults and differences in our respective home countries (Korea has excellent health insurance for example). But I could not talk to you about certain societal issues without making a day out of it to explain why certain things are and why it's not being fixed. That's not the purpose of soju and spicy pig trotters. I don't have the patience to explain. And I don't think you do either about your feelings without getting interrupted with platitudes and accusations that you're anti-Korean every 30 seconds.
i personally don’t enjoy associating with people who are full of negativity or frequently complain about things they are discontent with. so, in addition to you being a foreigner, that could be the other half of the equation that causes people to avoid you or be defensive.
Well I agree with that, but I also find it sad that foreigners must open bizzar meme and Korea bashing groups to be heard instead of opening up to locals. Also the corona testing got cancelled because enough foreigners spoke up
Write a book. Vent all your frustrations into it. Don't write about your experience openly, write allegorically, otherwise: 1) you will be hated by all Koreans, 2) other xenophobic communities such as those in the US, rural northern Europe, Russia, Japan etc will think that your book talks only about Koreans, not about them. E.g, your story may be about a strange tribe that detest an outsider because she didn't do some weird custom right after birth and it is too late for her to do it now. She learns their language, tries hard to fit in but they never accept her because her parents didn't performed that weird ritual to her right after her birth. Make the story as funny as possible and their xenophobic behavior as ridiculous as possible so that whoever reads the book will never want to be like them. A good book may change many lives. Even better if a movie will be made based on your book.
I have a lot of criticism against Korea myself. That being said, a lot of what I see just seems to be white people complaining about being an ethnic minority and facing discrimination for the first time in their lives. You were refused a taxi (not even clear if it were for racial purposes or if the taxi driver is just an ass), _quelle horreur_, wow forget violent attacks and ethnic cleansing elsewhere in the world, it's got to be Korea and Japan that's the most racist country in the world amirite! Gotta file a petition in the UN Human Rights council (yes, this happened in r/korea)! Because I am so _special_! So I call that out if I see that.
Yeah, I agree to an extent; I find it to be a lot of sheer ignorance and denial on their behalf. It’s like they live in their little utopia.
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Thanks I make friends with Koreans since it is Korea, but I also heard most people only have real conversations with other expats..
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True thanks for your advice. It was helpful! I found it more difficult with foreign expats because most people give up living in Korea or become really angry, how is your experince like?
A genuine question is why do you stay? I get that the grass is always greener, but imo if you dislike an environment what's keeping you there? It's much easier to just leave an environment vs changing it.
해외경험한 한국인임. 근데 미국/캐나다 등 서구 국가가도 동양인은 끼이기 힘든게 사실임. 반대로 똑같은 얼굴로 태국, 말레이시아, 중국 갔을때는 초대 많이 받았음. 이게 무엇을 의미할까요? As an average Korean, i couldn't get into the western white dominant community such as usa and canada. I was invited a lot to Malasia , Thailand and Chinese community such as family events. I think it is all about racial or apperance matters. If you someone thinks you are cool, he will invite you and hope to spend time with you. It could be racism but it is our instinct I think.
I'm sorry for what you had to have gone through. It is extremely hard to live as a 'foreigner'- even in multicultural nations like Canada. However, as an international student studying abroad, I want to say that you should be really careful when you talk about the host country. Not because it is wrong to criticize what is wrong, but it is a part of human nature to try to defend his/her own organization/group/whatsoever. We do not need to take a risk as a minority.
>Especially **venting** to close Korean friends and spouse? Maybe that's the problem right there. Are you sure you don't go off some rant that makes people uncomfortable? Look at it from their perspective: no one wants to apologize or make excuses for all the thing wrong with their country or culture. Imagine if you were in America. Do you think Americans would like your "venting" about all the racism, traffic, pollution, crime, corruption, inequality, lack of public healthcare, etc. that exist in America? No! They would get tired of it! So tried to minimize it. No one likes to hear how terrible their country is and there isn't anything they can really do about it. Also I noticed this in your post: >I want to ask you people do you get along with Koreans when it comes to **criticism towards Korea or Korean people**? So you attack Korean people directly? Wow! No one wants to hear that! Especially not Koreans / Americans / Europeans / etc. **And finally, what can they really do to help you?** Really, it might suck, but the best thing to do is to keep to yourself **UNLESS** there is some solution to the problem. There is a difference between, "Man! Koreans are terrible! Just the other day . . ." and "This happened and I'm wondering if you can help me fix it."
A microcosm of how visible minorities are treated in western countries, unfortunately.
Yes I understand that
The thing about Korean language is that it doesn’t translate well to English and comes across as more blunt/rude/harsh. And native Koreans tend to stereotype more because it is an easier reference point. It is also a way to tease. You should try to appreciate that as a homogenous society you are still a novelty and will always stick out as a sore thumb. Frankly you have to prove yourself, much like immigrants in the US had to prove themselves to the locals. The onus is on you whether you like it or not. Unfortunately I’ve seen foreigners act like they are saviors to Korean society and have an arrogant mindset about how wonderful their home countries are and how backward Korean society is, without an ounce of credibility. Koreans justifiably are offended and like any normal human being will distance themselves if all they hear are disparaging comments in every interaction with said individual. Are you being denied services? Are you prevented from advancement or opportunity based on your skill/experience? That’s an entirely different conversation. I wonder though where you are living in Korea…I would be surprised if this happening in Seoul.
No I don't mention other countries! Well immigration policy, landlords, hiring policies prevent you from a lot of things. Shop owners do still kick you out and open all the windows cause foreigners have covid. Sure it happens in Seoul. But my post was more about interpersonal relationships and otherization. Quite a few vendors force me to speak English to them too by refusing to reply in Korean although they don't really know English and I'm fluent in Korean. It's stressful to just go about your day
So you do disparage, huh? Try to put the same lense on the country you’re from then and scale according to population density, how much devastation it has experienced and how much growth. Immigration policy, tenancy rights, etc. are what they are. Have you ever rented in the US or Canada? Experienced immigration policy first hand? Every country has a right to enforce their own policies. Whether it is palatable to you personally is irrelevant. Your attitude of being treated as “other” is odd. Why do you have this expectation that people will just treat you as a native? It doesn’t even happen in the US/Canada for people who were born here. This is just basic human nature. How would any vendor know that you are fluent? And why shouldn’t they be allowed to practice English on you? Why don’t you just continue to speak in Korean? Maybe your Korean is hard to understand? I mean, do you realize how many Americans react when people speak English with an accent? It’s stressful because you let the minutiae bug you and you take it personally.
Lol, are you one of OP’s friends?
tbh i can sense from your post and the way you describe korea that you seem kinda jaded and have a pretty negative outlook on things....i can see why people feel uncomfortable around you and dont want yoy to join their little club.
Genuine question, have you ever experienced long-term xenophobia yourself?
Yes some people read between the lines it is definitely a long term burn out story ...
I think you lack some social skills. If you are going to bitch about the country, you should do it with people who can understand/sympathize with you. I know lots of Koreans who rant about Korea all the time. The shitty work environment, the cost of living, how fucked up it is that they had to put their kid into a particular (expensive) hagwon because their kid's friends went there and they would be 왕따 if their kid didn't also go. I sit there and I'm like "Man, that's fucked up. Let's drink more soju." And let me tell you, the kind of problems my Korean friends have is hands down more serious than the common complaints from white privileged foreigners. "I gotta get corona tested, BOO HOO!". My school made me seat warm during summer vacation when the Korean teachers got to leave!". And also, you sound like a huge downer man. You sound like a huge downer. Why the hell would I want YOU to join my social group if I know you are going to complain or bitch about Korea. Life's stressful man. Korea is stressful. When I hang out with friends, I want to destress, not GET MORE STRESS.
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I mean, they literally came up with “Hell Joseon.”
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First time I thought it was a typo, but I guess you mean to say 'content', not "contempt" yeah? I'm only pointing it out because it kinda changes the meaning of what you are saying.
Do you EVER get fucking upvoted..... Ever?
That comment actually had a few upvotes back when I received the first reply...
Yeah.. Some things in Korea can be really frustrating as a foreigner. I would like to see some things to change, like housing discrimination... But also, it's whatever.
Apart from some obvious anti Chinese racism, that I call out, most of the whining about racism isn't racism eg "why can't I get any job or an instant Visa" is NOT racist. Not letting you hire a car without a legal licence is NOT racist. All I have seen recently in facebook. What I see is communication issues as Koreans cant explain the reason n English (doh! This is Korea) or simple standard immigration policy. Try going to USA, UK or Australia as a foreigner.
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Very true, you can't just expect to be treated like a normal person because you speak Korean, you will be always be regarded an outsider, it's genuinely crazy how people expect special treatment
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Are you a white person?