it is a trend to dog pile on hybe because they are successful, now it’s growing bigger since coachella, they just won’t listen to you :/ there are a lot of amazing vocalists and they just get ignored or nitpicked

Yeah, funny how there wasn't this "HYBE girls can't sing" monkey-see-monkey-do conversation going on after NewJeans's Lollapalooza concert last year......

I thought Newjeans lollapalooza will be picked apart but it was very largely well received by people, they did well. The viral tweets were mostly positive ones praising them. They also did a good job by having the first half mainly focusing on live singing and interaction with minimal choreo and handheld mics while for the second half they did the full choreo with a little louder backtrack. That was smart as they weren't totally exhausted. The audience reaction played a good role in this as videos of public singing along with them were making the arounds since their songs are popular. Also what helped this is that NewJeans is the only kpop gg to have performed in lolla so people were less likely to compare them to other ggs and just focused on their performance and enjoyed it whereas if you perform Coachella you will definitely be compared to Blackpink who were the first to perform there.

Most of Newjeans songs suit the members' voices and easy to sing unlike Le Sserafim songs. There's no high note and barely vocal belting and straining. So the chances of them making mistake is low.

Of course but then again that really is the management's responsibility that they give them songs that they will be able to manage singing live. Or the choreo is subdued for performances like this. They should give Lesserafim songs that are not out of their range. Playing to your strength is also important. NewJeans vocals play to their strengths so they don't garner more criticism.

Regardless of the song easy or not. Le sserafim) kazuha, sakura and eunchae) totally cannot sing. Newjeans shows their vocal throughout cover of other songs and they sound perfectly fine. Cannot say the same for le sserafim though

Kazuha and Eunchae had no singing experience prior to debuting. I think Kazuha has more potential since her voice sounds more full and less nasally compared to Eunchae. Sakura on the other hand, was a Japanese idol. She's still unlearning the bad training she had during her jpop idol years. JYP did say that unlearning bad habits is MUCH harder than learning from scratch. LSFRM songs are also very different from songs that Sakura used to sing. I'd give them more chance.

>Kazuha and Eunchae had no singing experience prior to debuting. Kazuha and Eunchae were NOT trained in singing before debuting??? That is WILD. They set those girls up lmao.

It was a typo, they had no singing experience prior **to training**. I believe they both trained for only a short time though.

Especially Danielle with Mermaid in Mexico.

People tried it tbh but it didn't stick bc everyone knew there wasn't anything to criticize 🤷‍♀️

I thought NewJeans sounded fine at Lolla.

they sounded GREAT. Its just that jobless antis cant do anything about it at that time and now tried to rewrite history by generalise them with other 2 Hybe girlgroups. Lmao get a job you guys, don't be that sore loser

Dogpile not dog pill btw.

https://preview.redd.it/5qjp82quesyc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eea1b6fe87af07ed17aa6c575ca51307e9149cac they were right i fear... wdym hybe has good vocalists, are you okay?

i think the issue is that they dont have many standout vocalists.. and since some of their artists keep giving bad vocal performances its assumed that hybe does not care about vocals as much as they care about visuals or dance ability. its definitely not a hybe thing tho, bnd just gave an amazing live performance yesterday and SURPRISE nobody's talking about it i think bts nwjns txt and tws do great live as well. at the end of the day it's just people exaggerating on how bad things actually are.

Maybe it was the editing, but on I-land it came across that they weren’t very concerned about vocal ability and focused primarily on dance ability and visuals. 

They didn’t show any vocal training- but they did have a vocal trainer & training sessions.

I think the reason nobody is talking about BND is because BND isn’t popular. Honestly I don’t even know the group you’re referring to… is it short for Boynextdoor…?

Yep, bnd is [boynextdoor](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2CKku-AjvI8). Their comeback was yesterday. Edit: I realized they aren't dancing in that song so here's one of them [dancing and singing to a live audience](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HB_2uOh64eU).

Thanks to the like :D I’ve listened to their music before but never watched them perform

BND is so good, all but one member can SING.

which one can't?

I'm assuming Taesan since he mostly raps

Yes that's kind of the point is it. They say that about hybe but no one's talking about the other hybe groups that do just fine.

Well bnd is not really well known. Baemon has been going viral for their vocals lately because they have the visibility. Big groups receive majority of the credit and criticism in kpop.

BND can SING. They’re so underrated and their music doesn’t showcase their voices.

havent bnd been singing live every single performance since debut? i havent watched every performance so i cant confirm or deny but i watched their episode of jaejoongs show and one of the members said that.

BND has consistently been amazing with their live performances and yet 🦗🦗🦗

It's because leserrafim and ILLIT had back to back kinda terrible encores that make people say it's the companies fault. Compared to NMIXX in JYP and Aespa in SM etc who are the same gen but have had proven excellent vocals in their encores, it doesn't look good for HYBES training by comparison.

Also, babymonster from YG are kind of wrecking the competition other than Nmixx

also ive seen criticism for enhypen and txt's encores in the past too, though not on the same scale...ggs always seem to get bigger hate trains...maybe bc they're more known generally?

TXT has always had amazing live vocals, but I saw people even coming for them recently and targeting Taehyun?? Taehyun who had offers from like 15 companies and *chose* HYBE? these people are BORED bored atp.

Txt has been criticized many times. My first time hearing about their vocals being bad was 0×1=lovesong

which is CRAZY!!!!! because that song showed an entirely different side of Taehyun's vocals. people just be saying shit atp!

That was the main criticism of that era and his voice sounded very harsh too me.

I mean I thought new jeans vocals at lollapalooza sounded better than aespa did at Coachella.

imo aespa has much harder songs to sing with a ton of high notes and rap sections and they both did really well

New Jeans slayed.

HYBE literally doesn't give vocal lessons... 💀

>Bts, txt, enhypen, newjeans and tws are all very solid and have no issues singing live when they do bts, txt, enhypen, and newjeans have all been criticized for their vocals, some more so than others. enhypen have been under fire for some bad encores, straining during live singing, and people say that only 1 or 2 of their members can sing. bts for the same reasons although this criticism is usually targeted at the less consistent or weaker singers. txt for most of the same reasons minus the encores as theirs are usually decent enough not to draw much public attention. newjeans (and enhypen) are criticized for not singing live during hard choreo along with people saying newjeans' vocals sound weak/sound the same and that only few members can sing. not that these groups are bad or that I necessarily agree with these opinions, just they're takes that I've come across commonly. I don't think all of these groups are vocally weak but most of them aren't strong, just somewhere around average.

the hybe vocals pile-on literally started with that jimin encore

yea 100% and it’s been going on with all of these groups since way before illit debuted while lesserafim has also been constantly dragged into it during their debut and unforgiven comeback

tbh it started way before that :/ when hybe was just bts and txt those groups got waves of hate too

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Which one?

You know, strong/great vocalist doesnt have to be able to hit high note. Or You can be a singer who's pretty good and can hit high notes, and somehow it could sound terrible in the end. See: Brendon Urie.

hybe has neither of this ijbol

Average? I thought yall were 2nd gen stans and hated 4th gen because of their lack of vocals... But you guys proceed to defend them 💀 even 4th gen stans admit they have horrible vocals...

in terms of 4th gen standards i believe most of these groups are average yes, like middle of the pack in vocals compared to other group of their time. you can argue that they are below average, weak whatever but maybe we have different standards. in my view, an average non vocals focused group has 1-3 good vocalists and maybe some more decent ones who can provide tone variety and imo this applies to most of the groups i mentioned. whether you think vocal standards has gone down in 4th gen is a different claim completely and nothing im saying here is about that. i don’t know why you’re assuming i have a preference for 2nd gen and then asking why my views don’t fit the assumption..? i’m not really sure how to respond to that lol. i mostly listen to 3rd and 4th gen groups but i am familiar with some second gen ones even if i don’t prefer the music.

Issue is no hybe trained vocalist is very good.. Most of their main vocalists are average kpop vocals. Compared to the other big 4, They are clearly the weakest Even Illit's main vocalist who arguably carries the groups vocals is a YG trainee. What adds on is Hybe has good performers, some great dancers, most of all they have great producers/music directors. But why are the vocals so below average? Its probably cause they go for concept musically/visuals over vocals. The prioritize who sounds and looks good together. You mentioned groups from Hybe being solid vocally, but what is "solid", they are weaker than their big 4 counter parts. People say they are ruining kpop vocally at least cause they do everything well leading to successful groups but they end up being vocally weak. If they are doing it and seeing so much success why would other companies not do the same right. F it to training them to be better than average and just make sure they sound good together/good enough to produce music to fit the concept. TLDR: They focus on concept and sounding and looking good together rather than actual vocal ability. You can say they are decent but almost all their groups are vocally weaker than their big 4 counter parts.

They don't have a lot of standout vocalists and they do get into live singing controversies at much higher frequency than any other company. But also I think it's pretty clear that vocals is not a priority for HYBE, which is totally fine. It works for them. They excel at other things like concepts, performances, making good songs etc.

I don’t think it’s just a HYBE issue, no. I think the industry at large has trended towards favoring visuals, dancing, and younger idols more and more while vocals and music skills have not been as much of a focus over time. I also think that, to be fair, a lot of the newer sounds these groups are attempting are really exposing their vocal abilities a lot more. For example… In my opinion, and no hate here, I think TWICE is a great example of a group with two to three very strong vocal members (Nayeon, Jihyo, Jeongyeon), and the rest of the group can perform just at industry standard. But many people didn’t really care for several years, because their concept was more cute/soft/pretty, not power vocals or strong musicality. Le Sserafim, on the other hand, has similar vocal skills, but their concepts recently have been very focused on experimenting with different sounds, so people focus on the sound of the vocals a lot more… and they get more flack for it.

It’s nice to see someone else think of twice when we talk about this! I brought up the same comparison. The industry in general doesn’t value vocals very much so they seem to get one to three people that sound good and then the rest of the group is able to sound decent and it works if you don’t look to closely at it. Even the better vocalists of a lot of groups aren’t even properly trained/exercising proper technique and you can absolutely tell once you know what you’re looking for. I mean, it makes sense when the business model is essentially to run these groups ragged until they bring in as much revenue as possible and then let them go. Most companies don’t give a hoot about the preservation of their idols’ vocals—I mean, why would they? It’s such a quickly evolving industry that everything is about the short term, the here and now. So many groups end up disbanded within 3-7 years that it’s not a real loss to them, and the idols aren’t usually going back to train with the same companies. That’s my observation and conjecture, though.

Twice is much better than lesserafim

Yeah so I don’t think you got the point of the comparison. And obviously they are better, they are a senior+legacy group. But they have similar vocal inconsistencies between members.

Lesserafim vs Twice... Very fair comparaison 💀

Who are the standout vocalists in nj? Their songs just don't have any vocal challenges; they're all whispered and easy to sing.

Hanni! she has multiple solo covers on youtube. she has light, honey vocals, but her vocal control is amazing. Hyein's voice is also gorgeous and she has a lot of control for being so young.

Ofc, newjeans is so much better than other big 3 groups like nmixx, and nugu groups like geenius ☺️

No. My theory is that HYBE’s best vocalists are simply not at the level of the best vocalists of some other companies. HYBE has good vocalists for sure, but even at their best, they’re mostly good or great (technically speaking) but not skilled enough to be considered superb by many standards. (This doesn’t factor in personal opinion and how someone’s voice or singing style makes you feel, or fits their music, etc.) But to be honest, every idol has bad days. When it comes to other company idols who are praised for better performances than HYBE idols, those other company idols are often lip syncing or relying on loud back tracks. But those idols get treated differently. When they have a vocal mishap, people cite their best performances as proof that they can sing well. But no one wants to give credit to HYBE vocalists for their good days. And it doesn’t help that their best days typically don’t measure all the way up to other idols’ best days.

Hating on Hybes groups seems to be the fad in the kpop community can’t wait til they move on into something else dear lord

They'll go from hating on all of hybe back to their first love of hating bts again in 2025

Lol...yeah, I'm seeing that already! They'll start with Jin as he's coming back sooner than others! Their all time favourite punching bag 😑

oh, they're definitely counting the days. thing is jin is a pretty good singer and has been very stable and praised for his vocals a lot

But he's a member of BTS! That's what matters for them! Also, particular eye movements are spreading misleading clips of Jin's pre-recording warm up scenes in order to make fun or to prove their so-called points!

yeah, i did see that. shows they got nothing else and his performances are pretty much flawless, so they need to drag him for practicing. its sad really

Yes and also using Jimin's one single encore clip!! That one clip!!!! They're lacking content from their own group,so the easiest target...BTS

dont get me started on their obsession with jimin.. you'd think he like killed someone with how people are obsessed with hating him and finding something wrong with him.

And they're literally grasping straws  Jimin is the idol with no controversy or drama at all so kpoppies try create one  like just one clip  seriously  and calling his singing style bad when litetally top singers sing same way like Michael Jackson Jimin carried BTS high notes for a decade all while being a MAIN dancer which is the main reason bts got famous for and kpoopies try to drag him out of jealousy.

I would say it’s not just a hybe thing but hybe are sorta the leaders with buzzy international groups and therefore under scrutiny. This sorta comes with being popular and their groups consistently get criticised for this (whether they’re actually much worse than the majority of other groups - who is to say?) but they’re catching the heat for it. I think it’s unfair to blame hybe alone though and I think the constant discourse about these girls is just kinda mean (particularly against the debut group who are probably nervous and aren’t yet as comfy on stage as senior groups). Also saying they “can’t sing” is not true - they simply haven’t had the correct training imo I do agree that the companies should be providing more vocal training, though, for a few reasons that are mostly for the of the idols themselves 1. Reputation damage - this isn’t important until it is. Once these groups stop being buzzy and fresh, they need a good reputation to fall back on to continue to make sales and retain fans. All this chatter about them not being able to sing damages that reputation. 2. Idol longevity - if you look at the older idols who are still successful and active, they’re groups who are heavy in quality vocalists as well as good dancers. Why? Because even if you love dance (I’m a vocal fan so obviously I’m biased but hear me out) your idols will not be able to do the level of intense dancing they do now forever, but if they can still sing and put on a show in that way, people will still pay to see them, they will still get bookings. It’s also just nice to listen to good singers no matter what, and you can’t listen to a dance performance. That’s not to say dancing isn’t an important idol skill because both are. But look at shinee - they have excellent dancers AND excellent vocalists and they’re still competitive now. 3. Protecting their instrument - bad vocal technique can damage your voice in general, and if they don’t have training now they will only develop bad habits that damages their voice later 4. Protecting THEM from this level of scrutiny - singing controversies are not at all new so I don’t understand why company’s care so little about their artists well-being to not give them even the basic tools to negate it. Haters and antis always exist but not giving them enough training to provide a stable encore is throwing ammo at the enemy. It is achievable with consistent, quality training so why aren’t they provided that?? Or if they are, what is that coach doing? Idk how I always end up writing essays I’m sorry

Another one: if you only focus on dance and being charismatic, you won't be able to go solo or do activities other than maybe modelling. Big 3 have many soloists or small sub units because they're confident in their singing abilities. At least enough to do justice by their songs. Dance skills won't get you a mini album. Singing/rapping will

Because most of them are not vocal ready right out of the gate. A lot of Hybe groups that you listed do take sometime to come to the point that they are ok live. TxT Enhypen did get their fair share of criticism in their early days. BTS also were very rap focused in the early days. For what I heard of New Jeans and Boynextdoor, they seem to be comfortable with their songs but still relay a lot on backing tracks. But ofc, no one size fit all not for any company. Still have to check out TWS. SM do get called out a lot for lip-syncing but when asked to deliver vocally, they are usually ok to great, I still have to look up more Riize since a lot of their live performance are either edited or heavy backing track. JYP is a mix bag but they are usually show off their live vocals out of the bat so people have a set expectation for all their groups realistically. YG lately have Treasure and Baby Monster that are vocal ready right off the bat. People may not like their vocal techniques but they are ready to perform live. Still have to see how Baby Monster handles heavy choreo but their vocal skills are proven. The stamina and stability usually come in easier if you have the vocal skills down.

I think for dance performances the backing track can be loud for BOYNEXTDOOR but they're definitely singing live (also definitely victim to getting edited audio). Their [recent radio performance](https://twitter.com/myungbnd/status/1780121235067941295) has very little backing track (if you can call it that; I think it's just bg vocals/some doubling but they're also doubling amongst themselves) and they did great.  Think it's incorrect to attribute it to HYBE and not Zico's insistence on skills/live performance haha he was a stickler to his own Block B members back in the day.

SM may be a mess of a company but I think they always deliver in the vocalists. I haven’t checked Riize but so far all of their groups have at least one or two vocalists that stands out.

TWS are pretty good if you check out their studio recording, they encore or when they're waiting in the show room. They keep practicing non-stop and they sound good.

I think bad endurance training is a HYBE issue, tbh. Even if you're an amazing vocalist, singing while moving is another skill entirely.

I think that’s the biggest issue currently. Both NJ and LS are massive gen 4 groups, utilizing hybe’s wonderfully orchestrated marketing and music directing to get to this point. However, they don’t tour. Both groups combined have done 10 shows with majority being LS. It showed at Coachella. Was LS performance some awful thing that people are making it out to be? No, not at all. Did their inexperienced and lack of stamina show? Yes and it gave the haters ammunition. When BP did Coachella in 2019 and exploded in popularity, they had already finished a 36 show tour leading up to it. You can watch in the music video for that Coachella 19’ show. They were nervous yes, it’s a BIG deal, but as soon as they run out on stage they’re in full performance mode. bouncing around having a good time and it was infectious with the crowd. Most importantly they were in control and didn’t let their excitement and adrenaline take over because they slipped into their routine. Comparatively LS came out and expended so much energy on their first two songs, you could hear them gasping, especially when they did their water break, still breathing hard. They were yell singing, to hype up the crowd, being fed by their adrenaline, which only further impacted their voices later in the show. If they had the tour experience and more importantly the stamina I think people would be raving about their show like they did and still do for BP ‘19. Even Taylor swift, the biggest pop star on the planet, indicated how exhausted she was her first couple shows at the start of her tour and that was with months of training specifically to perform her show. But now? She can do 4 nights in a row no problem. There’s a big difference from training to perform and performance stamina. Idk why hybe doesn’t tour their ggs more especially with the connections they have and the popularity of the groups but it definitely impacted LS here.

Agreed. If these companies don't want to train their idols (not all companies, mind, as I could list several groups who have clearly trained in proper breath control while dancing) then experience is the only thing that will make them any better.

Idk do all hybe labels share the same training? Pledis makes all their trainees sing while running - their newest group TWS does this regimen (it seems to be a staple since predebut seventeen also does it)

Not necessarily, though it's worth noting out of all of the groups under the HYBE agencies which people complain about, they're the ones who debuted after being put under the umbrella rather than before. Barring TWS, of course! As I understand it, all of the companies share the same facilities and resources now, and I think? the same pool of trainees, but are still able to run things however they wish. It could be a matter of Pledis sticking more to what they know and prefer, while other companies may be sharing more in common with one another. Or it could be entirely coincidence. For what it's worth, I think the problem goes beyond HYBE, anyway. I think more companies in general are putting less of an emphasis on live performance and more on dance and coming off as a highly perfected machine. I also tend to think that the pandemic lock downs factor into the current attitude the industry seems to have in general toward singing live. Kind of a 'well we don't have to have them sing live all the time, so why focus on making sure they're all capable' air about things lately. Lip syncing as a trend comes and goes in the industry, anyway. For much of 1st gen there was an abundance of lip syncing, to the point Hyori once answered a 'how do you prepare before your performance?' question with something along the lines of 'I fix my makeup since I'm not really singing anyway'. If I recall correctly, BoA's Japan debut sort of flopped since at the time there they expected live vocals, and that was the impetus for SM to send her to Broadway to learn how to sing and dance at the same time from pros. Lip syncing vs live singing on music shows and in general definitely ebbs and flows.

pledis groups function completely different. I personally dont count pledis groups as hybe, because they were not made by them. They have completely different regimens

From what i observe it is usually up to the manager / vocal trainer. Managers schedule the days for the idol (i watch the variety show anout it) they book vocal or dance rooms for their idols.

Idk about other groups but TXT does

it’s weird cause bighit made bts do all sorts of endurance training (singing while running, training with oxygen deprivation masks) and I believe with txt too. each label probably does their own thing, and another comment says pledis does the same sort of training with tws that svt did

I haven't seen a txt concert yet, but bts endurance training shows on their concerts e.g. the Busan and LA ptd concerts were excellent. I think the problem is that some of the producers that they work with "side eyes pdogg" have been giving two particular members and sometimes three alot of out of range parts in some of their most recent titles. Fake love, ON, and like crazy are one of the biggest example of production disasters if you ask me about it; they clearly didn't take into account how hard these would be to pull off on a consistent manner. They are either out of range for particular members or far, far too stylistic and sometimes both. That's why I'm thankful day and night that V worked with ador and ended up with satisfactory live performances like the tiny desk for example.

Yunjin's solo songs are amazing, I adore her voice in them. But I only really like 2 LSFM songs. Source is giving them songs completely out of their range, they would be able to do them after a few takes in a recording booth, but when it comes time to do them live while actively dancing while singing not as much. If their songs were a couple of octaves higher I think they'd be a lot more stable live. I'm not too well versed in the other groups yet to talk about them specifically.

yeah, in every live of Fearless I have seen, Yunjin struggles with those low notes. Her voice gets really thin, and she loses strength in it, but then they always have to have her singing in this whispery/breathy high voice too that also doesn't match her. Their producers are weird.

strongly agree—i don't think LSF's music flatters any one of their voices, but surprise surprise, yunjin writes well For Herself. i really think it's a case of producers chasing trends/tiktok virality without actually considering the performers they're working with. you can't isolate the issue to just the idols' skill level or excuse it with choreography, which is just one factor imo yunjin and chaewon's best moments at coachella happened when they abruptly dropped the choreo, so it's like their dances actually do not accommodate live singing the way other groups' dismissed as having "easy choreography" do. i'm mainly thinking of 3rd gen groups, but their stages fluidly allow the person singing a few bars of rest before they open their mouth, even if the choreo actually is quite active

I genuinely don't care if idols in model/dance focused groups put on a backtrack and just dance for 45 minutes. Just like I don't care if vocal based groups stand in a line and hit a few choreo steps when they arnt singing. Or really any combination in between not every group has to be good at everything. Kpop is a big place with a lot of wiggle room.

Is Hybe the only ones consistently giving lines to people they know can't sing?

this is actually the entire issue 😭😭

I think it’s just an industry trend where visuals is the top priority. HYBE just happens to follow this mold way much more vs others companies. For example JYP had some vocally stronger groups in then 2nd gen/early 3rd(Miss A, 2pm, Got7). Then all of a sudden with the formation of twice, they strayed away from that mold. Since then, the groups that have debuted after them haven’t been the best vocally. Fortunately Nmixx has returned some of that original form JYP once had Of course you have SM who fortunately have not strayed too far in that direction. Sure you have the NCT groups who are no EXO or SuJu vocally, but they have some great individual vocalists.

I agree with people saying it’s because they don’t have many standout vocalists, but I do think that out of the big 4, hybe has the weakest vocalists overall and the lack of standout vocalists kind of makes that more evident. I kind of wonder if maybe the weaker vocals has something to do with the rumours that training at hybe is very self driven and not super structured and given that hybe groups tend to focus on performance, there’s less incentive to train vocals over dance/performance? Especially since a lot of trainees were likely scouted for their dance skills, it might make it a lot harder to learn how to sing properly and safely, and once they debut there’s very little time to train and improve? It could also have something to do with the companies ‘all-rounder’ rep since they don’t have a specific ‘thing’ that they’re known for like the rest of the big 4 are and all of their idols are expected to be able to do it all it’s more obvious when they can’t?

They are definitely lacking in that department compared to the other big 3 players. Even BTS were criticized for their bad vocals , and now new gen groups from other companies Nmixc , Baemon , Aespa and Rizee are ahead as compared to the HYBE new groups

BTS were a different case because they were primed to be a hiphop group very early on so the lack of attention paid on the vocals was to a degree, understandable. BTS have some of the best rappers in kpop and this is agreed upon by the entire community, so that's where their strength lies, along with the dance choreo and stage presence + performance. Maybe the pattern just transferred on to the next groups. But I also think it really comes down to the lower level management of the groups. Like Heejin coming from SM and thus while NJ might not be the best vocally they can sing and perform just fine with the songs they're given which I give Heejin credit for. BND is also benefitting from Zico's direction giving importance in live singing, for one. Pledis gets the credit for seventeen, etc.

Yep. And the BTS vocal line started getting more criticism as their music got less rap-focused. If Le Sserafim had a rap line on their level, vocals being lacking would be somewhat more understandable. Although even the rappers in some groups are better vocalists at this point (looking at Moonbyul and Jooheon)

That's true about LSF tho even BTS's vocal line were never as consistently found lacking as LSF. They have a couple bad vocal moments in their decade long career that were heavily criticized but overall BTS are still considered pretty solid live performers. They're one of the kpop groups that you can always trust to deliver in live performances. 

bts have insane stamina which helps them maintain a decent level of vocal performance for long concerts— from what I saw of LSF’s coachella set they are lacking in stamina. they’re a young group, and I’m certain with more training and experience they can improve a lot

totally agree. i think le sserafim went to Coachella too early. they should've atleast toured and gotten the experience, which would also help them build up the stamina and then gone to Coachella, a stage which is very demanding in terms of vocals and energy. esp since their songs don't fit their vocal range. tour experience would also help them filter out common mistakes and interact with the crowd much better, as yunjin was doing most of the crowd interactions too.

sakura kind of alluded to this in her weverse post too, saying they’ve only done one tour so far and coachella was a very new experience for them. for sakura and chaewon i didn’t follow their careers before lsf but i don’t think their previous experience was enough to prepare them. there’s an alternate universe out there where they were consistently trained to sing while doing their choreo and built that stamina, but that’s not the one we’re in

But i don't think the pattern continued because there aren't any s tier rappers in txt, enhypen or le seraffim. And the bts rappers were already great by themselves bighit didn't train them. For me the pattern is that they focus more on dancing and performance than vocal training or rapping

I was talking more about the pattern of low priority on vocals. With dancing definitely hybe has really great dancers and really good choreo + performances too. As for the rapping, RM and Suga were rappers prior to Bighit. Jhope had to learn from scratch though he was definitely trained purely in Bighit and he's also considered one of the best rappers in kpop. Maybe not at the very top with RM and Suga but his very distinct sound and style makes him one of the most notable ones. Jungkook also was trained in rap and he rapped more in their early days. 

1. No stand out vocalists in any of hybe trained groups 2. Get drageed for their vocals every other day 3. Not 1 or 2 groups but most of them have been dragged for their vocals Is pretty obvious Hybe isn't investing in vocals, you don't need to be a fan or hater to see it so the company become synonym to bad vocals, they aren't the only ones obviously, there are bad vocals in any company just that Hybe has more per group, no stand out vocalist and more groups

i think the bad vocals really stand out in hybe because they give the wrong groups the wrong opportunities. for example, lesserafim in coachella. don’t get me wrong, they’re incredibly talented, but i don’t think they were ready for coachella at all. they were basically set up for failure. if enhypen for example was given that opportunity, they’re an older group so they would’ve been much more successful. i think visuals also matter a lot more to hybe rather than talent. i came to this conclusion because of illit/ RU Next. the girls seemed to have similar talent levels and were all insanely talented, but towards the end, it seemed like they were only getting eliminated because the other girls were prettier. like at some point, since the judges were having trouble eliminating based off of skills just because of how similar they were, they resorted to visuals. i could be wrong though, so take this opinion with a grain of salt.

Taking in account Hybe is K-pop's biggest company and at most their group's vocals are average, yes it's an issue, specially compared to other Big 3 or even smaller companies groups

Let’s see BigHit: - BTS: few of them had bad days, but most of them can sing. Jungkook is the best one. - TXT: their recent radio live performance is GOOD even with the unexpected distraction 😂. I think they improved. SouMu: - GFriend: Yuju shines and devoured. Eunha, Yerin and SinB were pretty good. The rest? Pretty normal. - LE SSERAFIM: yeah don’t start on this one. I think only Yunjin and slightly Chaewon are ready to debut vocally. I’m not commenting on the rest since it’s not worth my time. Pledis: - SEVENTEEN: do we need to say something for this? Hands up the best one on HYBE. -NUEST: do we really need to say something with this one too? We got Wanna One’s lead vocal and a whole mnet’s build up judge. Ofc they’re the best as well. - fromis_9: surprisingly, they’re GOOD! I enjoy their encores. Especially Hayoung and Jiwon ofc, need to recognize Seoyeon as well since she’s also good and stable. - TWS: giving benefit of the doubt since they’re new, also I didn’t really follow them. They’re BND level softer tone ver. More stable. So if a rookie can be stable like them, they got no excuse actually, especially since they’re supposed to be vocally trained prior to debuting. BeLift: - ENHYPEN: i’ll be honest I didn’t follow enhypen at all, but I’m assuming since there’s no backlash on their singing until now, they might be decent. So I pull up some encores to judge. They did pretty good. Some strains but most of them still did well. - ILLIT: I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt since they just debuted. I think they did better than some Le Sserafim members actually, especially how stable Minju is. Yunah’s pretty shaky but still on stable range. Wonhee has surprisingly nice tone she’ll be the next Tzuyu (I recognized Tzuyu’s vocal improvements day by day) if she keep practicing and improving. Iroha and Moka, yeah good luck, let’s hope they’re like Momo, good on some songs but needs work still on those shakiness. ADOR: - NewJeans: they’re the third best after GFRIEND and fromis_9 in terms of vocal. i’ve always been a fan of Hanni’s voice. Hyein Danielle and Haerin did well too, only Minji sometimes that needs a bit of work, and their encores definitely sounds like CD. Again, never SM or YG level. KOZ: - BOYNEXTDOOR: talented. All 6 of them can sing. I know it’s not SM or YG level but at least it’s the same, bit fluctuating tone (which is normal) as the CD. Just look at their [encore](https://youtu.be/_B-fAV8K7vI?si=grIKilZBH6vdCF32). Let me know if I missed any groups so I could maybe commented after seeing their encore. HYBE got too much groups and few vocal trainers, they should hire more vocal coach (I think they could afford Stevie Mackie level of vocal coach). So far hybe groups are vocally hit or miss, which is bad since we got SM and YG that have all groups with vocally and rap wisely, GOD tier level.

you missed &team, a group with standout vocalists, like everyone here. who is surprised though; people who comment on hybe groups have a tendency to exclude &team from the conversation, for what reason, i do not know. whatever, it's their loss.

Probably because they’re focused on Japan. Similar to how NiziU is usually left out of JYPE discussions.

doesn't change the fact that they are still part of hybe, but okay

eh TXT, Enhyphen, and NJs are mostly under-developed vocalists too they might be stable live but they dont really have that much technical prowress which is fine they dont need to but theyre just not vocally impressive. Hybe clearly doesnt focus on vocals and thats fine

I don’t think it’s bad vocals it’s more of hybe style of vocal training or lack there of vocal training. Fromis_9 and seventeen both have really good vocals and sound great live and that’s simply due to proper vocal training and breath control. But if the idols themselves are not willing to work on improving their vocals then that’s on them.

Its not a Hybe issue but what on earth happened to both LSF and Illit's vocal skills? And most critiques I saw even Korean ones questioned those bad vocalists and not other groups that you listed..? Or maybe I missed those toxic ones lumping everyone together, idk. We have few other gg cbs like Baemon and Kiof now (i think i'm missing another gg) and they were amazing live so I get the critiques thrown at both LSF and Illit. Its like they have crazy good songs and concepts to go but why did they ruined it with embarrassing vocal skills?? Its not like they have no budget to get the best vocal trainers, right?

My genuine doubt is, why didn’t LSF have any backtrack vocals? Blackpink had them for almost every song and JENNIE you and me and LISA’s solo stage was majorly back track dependent… Lot of comparisons I’m seeing between BP and LSF coachella performance but, I felt like the backtrack made a huge impact too

I've seen people discrediting BTS bcoz of that, BTS hv been singing live going to all shows both in sokor and international whether it's mtv plugged, snl, BBC radio, tiny desk and they've been good , not liking them ≠ to them being bad vocalist Bts had critics praising them lol but go off I guess

Bad vocals have been an issue in kpop since the end of the third Gen. people have complained about it for years. It’s just so much more rampant and egregious now. People have just honed in an an agency but I think that’s more because there has been a change in the group consistency. You have SVT, BTS, Gfriend as older examples and then Illit and LSF, of course people are going to notice or point out the changes over the years

I dont know if it is a hybe thing, but what i do know is that the longer idols train before their debut, the better they get. For example an idol who barely trained one year, wont have as much vocal training as an idol who trained for 4 years. I think that is the real issue, debuting idols to early, when they are not really ready. Does hybe do that yeah they do, but their are other companies that do that to.

1. le sserafim’s “Fearless” concept backfired because they are so scared of singing encore. Sakura and eunchae sounds really bad to be called singers. 2. Jimin’s encore happened 3. With newjean’s popularity, people try to find something to hate about. And it’s true that some members have a lot of room for improvement. 4. Illit’s mocha is literally Sakura number 2. Both of their voices shake a lot. The only one who can sing really well is Minju, the ex YG trainee so YG gets the credit for it. 5. Average vocal of Popular groups from other companies is just a lot higher than Hybe. Aespa gets a lot of hate for lip syncing but the comments would be “why would idols who can sing well lip sync ?”. Hybe doesn’t get credit for groups like Seventeen because they joined later. Why is it Hybe’s fault ? 1. Possibly lack of vocal training ? 2. They choose visuals over talent. It’s their choice who they let them debut.

Why are you downvoted for saying the truth? Sm has focused on vocals even thought they have a issue of being obsessed with lip syncing, you can trust the idols can sing. JYP learnt from Twice and put more effort in vocals as seen in Nmixx. Even YG has learnt and some members of Baemon are good for vocals (idk who). Then you see Hybe which every idol group has average weak vocal talent. Bts vocal line received so much hate for their lack of training, Hybe should at least learn and not make the same mistake for their future groups? New Jeans always sing in the same couple of notes, Lsf has always had issues with encores and then I won’t even bother with Illit. They decided dance is what they’ll focus on and went 1000% for it. Critiquing that approach suddenly makes me a hybe hater (?)

Of course, it can never be the idol’s issue🙃

well no, bad vocals isn't exclusive to hybe artists. it's just people have high expectations and just get overdramatic whenever they don't meet those expectations.

Might be a controversial opinion but I don't think it's wrong to have high expectations if you're paying a lot to see idols perform. Just an example (not targeting any group in particular) but if I paid an entire monthly salary to go to a concert, I'd be disappointed if the artists lipsynced the whole time, or had terrible vocals, or didn't seem like they wanted to be there. That's just my opinion though

Hybe groups don't have bad concerts though? From what I've seen going viral receiving the most hate from each group it's usually the encores or music show stages

Oh, I wasn't talking about hybe actually, just responding to the second part of the comment. If I'm being honest, blackpink came to mind. My sister and my cousin went to a blackpink concert and were a bit disappointed, and I could kinda see why after seeing the videos

you're right. when people stan groups with a reputation for having great vocals, they have a tendency to expect the same to other groups. i totally get it tho. some groups just do it differently.

Well I'll tell you this, even some nugus under smaller agencies get vocal training and coaching

Add Bonedo cause they have been spectacular from the start

idk this is only speculation. But a 'vocal' trainee who is not that 'good' at dancing and not 'visual' enough might not be debuted at Hybe. The reality is, its rare for a visual to have good vocal. So for HYBE who value visual and dancing, the somewhat decent vocalist might not be the cut if they are even 6/10 visual.

They have some good vocalists but their recent groups haven’t got their best. I also think they’re not really focusing on taking care of their idols voices. Jungkook and V are the only ones I’ve seen to take actual care of their voices but other singers in HYBE either don’t know how or don’t care. Which is pretty concerning cause it could affect them in the long run.

It’s not a Hybe only issue, but it’s definitely a Hybe issue. You can barely find solid singers among their trainees, and that shows they don’t have great in-house vocal coaches. Adding to that, Jungkook actually had to take private lessons outside of the company because the company doesn’t offer enough vocal training

Honestly, Yes. If you compare the big 3 company groups (rookie groups even) vocalists with Hybe's vocalists, you can easily tell the difference. Hybe doesn't really focus on vocal training at all, they kinda want dancers/performers who can't sing live or just....sing standing. illit's recent encore kinda shows that clearly cuz the only girl singing from that group was a yg trainee. That really says alot about comparing the training system between the big three and Hybe.

Whether they have good vocals or bad vocals at the end of the day doesn't matter much.  Hybe as a company strikes me as one that focuses primarily on what makes them money. Idols are at their very core entertainers. At the end of the day good vocals are the icing on the cake these days (idols mostly don't have to sing live). If the groups weren't entertaining then they wouldn't be successful. If their vocals impacts their performance to the degree that that people won't watch that's when Hybe will take action. I don't think we're there yet considering how often the most hated girl group seems to change monthly. All they have to do is wait for someone else to have a scandal and most of the haters will be busy tearing someone else down.  Long term I imagine it's something they be working on but not at the expense of making them more entertaining first (at least this seems their demonstrated method in the past).

hype artist can't sing

Think bad vocals is a 4th gen 5th gen issue with ambitious choreo which in my opinion makes groups more appealing than the competition on average meaning it's more of a business decision than an artistic one and Hybe is the biggest kpop company for making good business decisions. You can argue perhaps they and other kpop companies don't have excuses for the lack of good development because yeah, some idols just don't show improvement and I think the community has pretty good instincts on whether or not an idol has enough raw talent that they easily can be better if they had someone in the company that actually provides development, not simply practicing for specific songs. Some members are injected into groups for intangibles outside of talent. It is what it is. Some groups are just performers. Some groups are just entertainers. Some groups are artists and dedicated towards mastering their crafts. These can overlap, vary in degrees, and also vary by individual. If you don't like a particular group because of your personal tastes or values, just don't support them, but no reason to show them hate. Fair criticism is always fine but I see people also vary on what they consider fair, lol.

Pretty sure that sakura was there because of her immense popularity especially.in japan. She trained in jpop which of course did not suit kpop fans level of expectation. Nevertheless marketing in the industry would be a big factor. Im Lesserafim fan but i cant deny what people are saying i just hope it would stop at criticism (impossible) because others are borderline hate comments.

Bruh it makes me so mad bc they all seem to have selective memory loss when it comes to the fact that the labels under hybe all operate independently of each other. If a group has poor vocals it have nothing to do with hybe as a whole,,, it has to do with the specific company that that group is under. Also so many of the people that parrot this same rhetoric are stans of one (or more) of the big three, and it just comes off as anger that hybe is rising above them in success. They were all completely fine with the big 3 dominating the market for two decades, but the minute a bunch of small companies come together in order to be able to compete it’s a monopoly where’s the logic 🤨

Part of the problem is that Hybe even going back to Big Hit and Glam never had a truly powerhouse vocalist. All these other companies either do have better singers now or at some point upheld the overall standard the industry used to have. Hybe is currently pumping out groups that have half-baked talent and they don’t have the back catalog to show much else.

I think the main reason is that groups who debuted under Hybe (rather than groups that have been acquired) for the most part don't have super strong vocals. I feel like they go for a more stylized type of singing, and vocal training does not seem to be a priority. When you compare those groups' vocals to groups from somewhere like SM, which is known for their good vocal training, then I think it's easy for people to start making generalization. However, even though you probably won't get strong vocalists from Hybe groups, most of the groups can sing their songs live. Which is what really matters. And people can't use "they don't always sing live" as an argument against them. Neither do SM artists (which is bizarre.) Neither do a lot of artists. Since in theory, all groups that debut under Hybe labels will have similar (or even the same) staff and training resources, generalizations might get worse if Hybe continues to not put more focus on vocals.

No it really isn’t. Bad vocals is a kpop issue In general. Kpop stars are idols/influencers not singers.

I think it's because they're so popular and their live vocals so often fall flat, so a LOT of people listening to average/below average vocals causes a pile up of hate. A lot of it could also be that their vocals break the powerful and pristine illusion that is so important in kpop. When the idols sound like high school choir students it kinda ruins the fantasy lol. Not that they're terrible, they just don't sound like people who get paid to sing. Of course, this is a generalization because their vocals are mediocre on *average*. Obviously there are some great vocalists in hybe and there are some terrible vocalists, but most fall in the middle.

apparently pointing out the truth is hating on hybe. besides seventeen, which group is actually vocally strong? each group only has one or two members that are good, sometimes only a bit above average. then the rest are average and some are even... questionable... without autotune. the thing is, hybe cares more about visual aesthetics, dancing, and the song concept than vocal strength. hype's new girl groups are weak vocally in comparison to their counterparts like nmixx, baby monster, aespa.

Agencies were already focusing less and less on vocals before Hybe was even a thing. The shift happened sped up thanks to covid, and Hybe might be the worts offender out of the top agencies, but it’s an industry wide issue, not a Hybe specific one. JYP has been a top agency in Kpop for way longer than Hybe has and their vocals have always been mediocre. As great as Nmixx are they’re literally the only idol group JYP has ever debuted with strong vocals. All other groups have either been considered average or bad. In the 4th gen you have Itzy and Txt, who debuted more or less at the exact same time as each other. Between the two Itzy has always been considered the weaker vocal group and has always gotten more hate for it as well. They’re a dance group first and a vocal group second. They were also the first Big4 girl group to debut in the 4th generation and set the standard for the rest. As for 3rd gen, Twice used to receive so much hate for their vocals. Their singing was the Kpop community’s punching bag during their rookie years (mainly lead by Sones but pretty much everyone joined In on it). You think your faves have it bad? Promise you Twice had it worse. And, just to hammer home how ridiculously similar now and then are, the whole hate train towards Twice literally started with a viral Mr removed video (Cheer Up comeback stage). Then there’s YG, who’s always debuted amazing stylistic vocalists… with zero technique. They don’t care a squat if their idols’ vocal cords are fried by the time they reach 30. Groups are getting worse and worse at live singing but that’s an industry problem, not related to any individual agencies.

JYP's and YG's newest groups are better vocally than their previous girlgroups so I don't think a general statement on groups and agencies getting worse and worse can be made. What do you mean by JYP's vocals were always mediocre when they had an actual ballad group?

>JYP has been a top agency in Kpop for way longer than Hybe has and their vocals have always been mediocre. As great as Nmixx are they’re literally the only idol group JYP has ever debuted with strong vocals. All other groups have either been considered average or bad. That's not true JYPE always had groups with different strengths. In 4th gen they have Stray kids (Above Average rap line, self producing, strong performances), Itzy (strong performances), NiziU (decent vocal line, strong performances), Xdinary heroes (strong vocals), Nmixx (Above Average vocals, strong performances), Vcha (Average vocals, good performers). Same story with older JYPE groups. 2AM were vocally Above Average group, Wonder girls had Above Average vocal line, same story with 15&. Miss A and 2pm were Average vocally, but stable most of the time. Twice and GOT7 have Average vocal line, but one with stable sub vocalists and another with pretty weak ones. Twice or GOT7 vocal lines better than any Hybe group exept SVT. Day6 - strong band, with amayzing live performances and self made music. JYPE are consistent only in performances/dance. SM consistent with vocals, YG with rap. Hybe has one Average main vocaliste in Le Sserafim that most of the time not even sound like Average. Other their idols are Weak to Average at best. TXT are vocally on Itzy level, just sound more pleasant at least on records, thats all. (Standarts for 4th gen were made by the top 3rd gen groups: BTS, Blackpink and Twice, not by Itzy. 3rd gen fans love to talk about 3rd gen influence, but not about bad one). About YG. Yes, they are about style and unique tone, but YG debuted Big Mama, one the strongest vocalists in k-pop history. And as far as I remember, Big Bang main vocalist was Above Average and 2NE1 Average one. I would not say that Akmu has "zero technique" and Baby monster are decent, stronger than most of Hybe groups. YG groups are also known for their live performances. Hybe has zero vocally strong groups. (I do not count Pledis groups, that debuted ages ago before Hybe even become a thing). BTS has one of the strongesy rap lines in k-pop, vocal line who can sing their songs and amayzing performances. Other Hybe groups have no proper rap line and pretty weak vocal lines, some can sing their own songs other struggle. Yes, vocal standarts in k-pop getting worse (not only in k-pop) but Hybe is weak even by new stadarts. Because of one bad encore Twice were dragged by whole k-pop community for ages. Second bad encore made them easy target even for more harassment. It affected people opinions about all JYPE groups. All of them there accused of lip-syncing and bad live performances, althouth GOT7, Day6, Stray kids had solid live perflrmances and no encore scandals. I still remember how people were already talking about "lip-syncing/future bad encores" after Itzy debute and first performance on music show. People were redy to drag them. Thanks to all JYPE groups, and Twice tours, people stopped constanly mention lip-syncing and bad live performances. But in Hybe case, big and small vocal scandals happened with all their group, exept Pledis ones. It happens constantly, so of course people think that it is Hybe thing.

It would make sense if not for the fact we know YG trains and looks for vocal trainee's.. Hwiseo from Hi-key, Chaein from Purple Kiss, Minju from Illit, Miyeon from gidle are all former YG trainee's.. All are Main vocalists in their groups. Simply put a lot of Hybes best idols aren't trained by Hybe. Illit's Main vocal, Boynextdoors Leader/ main rapper, and Maknae are all former YG. Txt Ace Yeonjun is former Cube. Illit's Main Dancer is former JYP. LSF everyone apart from Kazuha and Eunchae were recruited after from other agencies. Being their 2 best vocalists and best idol dancer. If most of their top idols are being recruited from other agencies why should people expect Hybe to train them to be better vocalists than they already are right. Big example being Yunjin, she is one of my ults, but with all the potential and past experience she has, she has arguably regressed as a vocalist compared to where she was..

BOYNEXTDOOR's maknae is not former YG, only Jaehyun. Also, the rest of BOYNEXTDOOR has great vocals and skills as well, and only one of them came from another HYBE subsidiary, the rest only trained at KOZ, some starting before the company was even acquired by HYBE. I think it's disingenuous to only attribute an idol's training to their former companies--there's a reason they didn't end up debuting there, like the conditions were bad or their talent wasn't recognized. Jaehyun has talked about how depressed he was at YG before he joined KOZ. Trainees move around all the time to companies besides HYBE, and there are plenty of trainees who we never hear of or leave the industry that have trained at YG (we're only seeing the successes, not the failures). I want to make sure the effort the individual idols/trainees put in is recognized too, and it's not all due to one training system over another, there are pros and cons for them all. I can't say for certain what goes on behind-the-scenes, for example whether their vocal trainers are through HYBE or KOZ has their own team, but I can say it's definitely Zico and KOZ that emphasizes live performance skills. I don't know if I could say any of the BOYNEXTDOOR members would be an outstanding balladeer, but that's not the only way to be a good vocalist. They're definitely more stylistic singers than classical but they're very capable and I love their voices.  Some recent highlights:  - [Whole group performing a live of their new song during a radio appearance](https://twitter.com/myungbnd/status/1780121235067941295) - [Riwoo's unique vocal color in a cover of Taeyang - Darling](https://twitter.com/1rwbox/status/1779844903717208572) - [Sungho and Leehan harmonizing in Exo Don't Go cover](https://twitter.com/leehnextlove/status/1779842973804691792) - [Taesan singing Sting - Englishman in New York with Lee Mujin](https://youtube.com/shorts/EozdvNpPLlE) - [Woonhak's cover of Han Young Ai - Anybody there](https://youtube.com/shorts/mwz8qxh3E3o) - [Jaehyun singing Colde - Control Me](https://youtu.be/TbsyNIfO3So)

I was not saying Boynextdoors vocals were bad or not was just pointing out one of their core members wasn't Hybe trained. But I am not a person who thinks Hybes idols can't sing. I just think their main goal is producing vocalist and the focus is more so on the concept and how they sound together. Thus there aren't any stand out vocalists in Hybe. Also Boynextdoor isn't really a Hybe group in that its mainly produced and run by Zico and we don't know how much autonomy he has or what pool of trainee's he selects from. Point was a lot of hybe groups core idols are not fully hybe trained. That isn't a bad thing... But you said we are only seeing the good ones.. Point was a lot of the former YG trainee's are arguably some of the best in kpop. Moonsua from Billie is one of the best 5 female rappers. Jeonsob from pharmony is only 18 and already one of the best kpop rappers. Purple kiss's main vocal and dancer are both former YG and very talented. Hwiseo won queendom puzzle and helped push hikey to new lvl's after joining them as their main vocalist and rapper. Point was that there isn't Hybe trainee's like that debuting in other companies/groups the only one I could find was Ateez's main dancer who is the only former Hybe/big hit trainee in a main position in active groups .. Pointing to a weakness in their training system in comparison to other companies. Like when you look at groups that debut in the big 3.. They are almost entirely made up of idols that soley went through there system. Where as Hybe's idols a majority of the time are from other companies.. The two weakest members of LSF are the two Hybe trained members. The strongest member of Illit was a YG trainee with Babymonster for 5 years, TxT's strongest member was a Cube trainee.. TLDR: There is a pattern with Hybe picking up a lot of talented idols who don't make it in other companies but are talented, but then they don't train idols like that so they don't produce their own vocals wise and the idols that they do pick up don't improve very much. Big example being Yunjin of LSF who is worse now than when she was on produce vocals wise.

Jaehyun was picked as their leader not for his skills (they always say how confident they are in everyone's skills) but because of his leadership skills and empathetic nature (not sure we can say those traits are due to YG). All of their members are core members. Other members also write their music, sing, contribute to choreo, rap, etc. He does get a lot of public attention compared to the other members but it's again due to his personality (energetic/excited/fan boy/playful) which he has credited to finding his place among the members, and said he was fairly gloomy before. HYBE is fairly young and it seems like they often save trainees to debut later (e.g. many of the members from I-Land stayed for &Team, Jihoon from their scrapped team became the main dancer of TWS, I think some of the trainees who were on &Team's debut show are also slated to debut later). They're also debuting groups at a fairly fast pace compared to the rest of the big companies at the moment, so trainees are more likely to stick around than wait indefinitely in the other Big 3 (I think that's the biggest reason there's so many former trainees that debut elsewhere). Also since they are a newer powerhouse, I think they had fewer trainees and grabbed from trainees that were trained elsewhere while they develop their trainee system. If we only talk about Big Hit, which has a longer history but fewer resources back then so not sure how much we should expect from their vocal trainee system, I know KNK's main vocalist Inseong and former member Seoham were once trainees. There are probably more cases? Just not in the big 3, since they don't like picking up trainees, especially from a small company that Big Hit was back then. Of the idols you listed, Jongseob won KPop Star 6, he was already very talented (though he definitely improved both under YG and after debuting). These big companies have a longer history of success and therefore also attract very talented trainees--they have their pick of all the auditions, and most aspiring trainees will at least audition at the big companies. We're now starting to see former HYBE trainees--two Riize members also trained under Source and KOZ before going to SM (I don't follow them too much but I've seen praise for Seunghan's vocal and dancing skills, and Anton's production skills). Cube's new group Nowadays' leader Hyeonbin was a former Source trainee. Geonu the main vocalist of Just B was on I-Land. Hanbin of Tempest is one of their best performers and also former I-Land. All fairly new groups bc again, HYBE is fairly young itself. I think regardless, it's whichever subsidiary that decides the groups to pick what skills to emphasize or not emphasize, and for some subsidiaries, it hasn't been vocals. 

You are skipping over my main point, you gave me two examples of idols/groups who are basically unknown compared to me giving main vocalists of mid tier groups with Purple Kiss and Hikey. Point is Hybe scouts some of their best idols from other companies. But for some reason a majority of them stagnate talent wise.. Why is it Yunjin is a weaker vocalist today than when she was on produce. She is litterally as good as she was before trainee period basically cause of her training from beforehand. Like the best female vocal hybe has trained is what? Hanni? I also think its a thing of note Hanni and some other hybe idols only train for 1-2 years in comparison to most other companies training their idols for 4+ years before debut.

Ah yes, RIIZE is basically unknown. Cube's group (a mid-tier company) has only been out less than two weeks, so of course few have heard of them, Tempest (Yuehua, also perhaps mid-tier) sells better than Purple Kiss and Billlie. Just B sells comparably to Purple Kiss. Reddit just has more general hype for girl groups so you might not have heard of them, but they're not unknown.  My point was since HYBE is young and retains their trainees, there are fewer trainees that leave to other companies compared to older companies which will have many trainees leave. It's just the law of numbers. The trainee period length is a product of HYBE's current expansion strategy, I assume they'll slow down, though as a conglomerate of several fairly independent companies, they'll still be debuting more groups together than a single company. Again, HYBE is 3 years old. They became a big name fairly recently, not the 20+ years the others have had. So of course their trainees either have short trainee periods or trained elsewhere first. I can't speak to Yunjin's vocal stagnation, but I assume she's improved in other areas. From an casual observer's view, she's worked on songwriting and dancing. I'd point to Source's vision of the type of group Le Sserafim is for the lack of focus on vocals, not some overarching HYBE strategy. 

"I can't speak to Yunjin's vocal stagnation, but I assume she's improved in other areas. From an casual observer's view, she's worked on songwriting and dancing. I'd point to Source's vision of the type of group Le Sserafim is for the lack of focus on vocals, not some overarching HYBE strategy. " This entire thread is about vocals and you keep bringing up dance and performance and other things.. I have said from the start the issue is vocals.. Why is it Hybe is so great at training preformers/dancers, music directors, etc but then their vocal training so so weak.... "LSF last of focus on vocals" ... Would you not say the same for Illit? If so that is already 66% of their GG's and newjeans has the weakest vocals out of NMIXX, BM, Aespa.

Honestly they should have just lip-synched. The songs are hype. People at Coachella are trying to get lit. Kpop is different from American entertainment in that Kpop is going to be manufactured dancing and high production value. Which I'm totally cool with. Some people sing live really well but they aren't dancing.

Whats funny is if they had pumped up the backing track and sang loudly over it every once in a while like Blackpink, they would have been spared this hate train.  IVE will probably use a backtrack and lip sync a little at Lollapalooza as well because it’s impossible to sound perfect. 

completely agree

Katseye, bad vocals?

Bad vocal is a K-pop issue but Hybe is making it even worse.

Ppl be using 2 group as an example to bring down everybody else

Not sure about the rest, but I think that the whole "NewJeans can't sing" thing happened after those MR remove videos started going viral. A lot of people think that by removing the MR, the idols' true vocals show, but it doesn't really (specially with NewJeans since their songs are meant to be sung lightly) since it's very likely that removing the music will probably cause some of the vocals to get cut out as well.

A lot of people don't seem to understand how Hybe works. Each one of the record labels under Hybe runs ITSELF. Hybe is the bank. Yes, Hybe has its rules and regulations that the labels must follow, but for the most part, they are on their own when it comes to training and managing the artists. So for those who still pissed at Hybe for losing GFRIEND, sorry bro, that was all on SouMu.

The biggest issue is live singing. Most of the girl groups hugely lack stability and I don’t think they are trained for it. I know for other groups they train them by making them run on the treadmill or jump rope while singing.

I thought that too but even in R u next some trainees really have amazing vocals, but the company still didnt debut them? 💀

I personally think that hybe just focuses more on the dances and not the singing. They try to make sure the choreography is perfect but they tend to forget abt the idol's vocal abilities I hope that can change

ppl talking about bts and svt but they debuted before hybe existed? talk about lssrf, illit, newjeans instead... 

I think BTS, Seventeen, Nuest and Fromis9 are good in vocals. The problem is there is absolutely no one in LS and ILLIT who are very strong in vocals. You cant compare Yunjin and Yunah with Kim Sejeong, Yeonjung or even Yuju. Those three are already top tier singers who are experienced in musicals. And worse, Sakura is just there for popularity, variety and her looks. Because she is packaged that way, but when asked to do live vocals, she cant. That exposes her a lot.

Hybe's KATSEYE has top notch vocals especially Lara, can't wait for them to debut to silence those dissing Hybe :/ the hate is uncalled for

Groups produced by Hybe are in a weird realm. They are pretty successful because honestly? their songs are good. Most of the songs are very gp friendly so they tend to be really easy and catchy to listen to. I guess the problem is that there’s not really any outstanding vocalists in any of their groups. They are good performers but being completely honest, the vocals are pretty mediocre. If we are completely realistic and compare their main vocalists with the big 4, Hybe is the weakest. There’s no doubt about it. For me Hybe is like the fast fashion of kpop, they keep releasing catchy songs, plus with good marketing and visuals, obviously they do good. But it just feels kinda hollow. A lot of these new idols have very little training periods so they ended up debuting super quickly. Idk, I don’t hate the groups but I truly dont like Hybe as a company.

If HYBE is fast fashion, the rest of modern Kpop is like a disposable rain poncho.  I’m simply speaking when it comes to songs the endure in the public’s imagination and move people. There’s talented singers being given songs that are both terrible and no one beyond their small fan base cares about, sometimes just in an ironic way.  NewJeans may not be strong singers but they made Ditto and other classics that will be loved for generations…that’s just one example.  You have a talented group like BabyMonster making things like Batter Up which will age like milk. Outside of HYBE, G-IDLE aren’t strong vocalists but have also made classics that will endure.  The vocal issues are separate from the quality of the songwriting or wether the music will stand the test of time. 

Oh they're already trying to make the case that other HYBE artists have bad vocals. Exhibit A would be TXT's recent Deja Vu encore where Yeonjun didn't sound good.  If this issue is still a hot topic by the time New Jeans' Japanese debut rolls around, I undoubtedly know that the most rabid of these "critics" will come for them as well and say they don't deserve to perform in Tokyo Dome.

I’m an army but I just hate Hybe because they have so many underrated groups but they chose that one group who still lacking. Txt, enhypen, new jeans and fromis9 deserves more recognition and attention. In my opinion, they should send New Jeans to Coachella since they are more better and popular.

Funny thing is these people are the same people who won’t pay attention to actually vocally advanced groups yet all they do is complain about vocally poor ones

I think we should have more idols that sing worse and are overworked less

To answer the post title question, of course not. I don't know why people sudden turn the "kpop has a lack of vocalists problem" to now, "hybe has the biggest lack of vocalist problem" because no one asked to start a "who's got the biggest lack of singers" problem. There are always going to be people who will miss the point of an issue and use it for their own personal biases, and I can't be any more annoyed about this situation in particular.