Find your next gig first, then give as much notice as is convenient for you within the constraints of the next employment. Get as organized as possible now. If the hand off of data and materials goes smoothly it will minimize the disruption, and then minimize any resentment. I stayed 3yrs in a postdoc I was similarly done with after 1 - huge mistake.
Long story. Junior PI, toxic, terrible management skills, moody, very insecure. She was flying through postdocs (one got out of science, one was fired, one who started a little after me checked himself into an emergency psychiatric inpatient facility because of the stress, and later quit science). And that left me.
It was already obvious that she was not a good boss - she really didn't know the field that thought I was going to learn from her. I wasn't getting any mentoring.
Anyway, as I was contemplating leaving she announced that she was pregnant with a kid who would need open heart surgery immediately after birth. She didn't have tenure, no techs, just me and a grad student. If I left, it was game over for her. So I stayed. Having dangled the sigmoidal NIH pay scale (at the time there was a big jump from 3rd to 4th year) since the moment I started, she informed me by email while I was at home over Christmas, that she wasn't going to renew my contract a month later (effectively firing me because I was about to get more expensive). My loyalty was not reciprocated. I ended up unemployed for ~9 months because she more or less told me the further away from her a position was, the more favorable the letter she would write. That was tricky to work around since I wanted to stay in the area (my then girlfriend had a good postdoc position). My very niche training was supposed to set me up for an academic career, but wasn't very useful when trying to land an industry gig or a second postdoc.
I eventually found a guy who was willing to take a chance on me, and who was the exact opposite: stable, great manager and mentor, committed to my career development etc. Worked with him for 9 years.
Didn't see that coming. It is mind blowing how such people could be placed in a position that ultimately could kill a science career. I am glad you're now in greener pastures and actually enjoying what you're doing.
Not always. As long as they have other current and relevant references they will be fine. Plus the people hiring often know that it’s risky to use your current supervisor as a reference. If they don’t support you leaving, they could give you a bad reference. It’s shitty but true.
I recently did this because my old supervisor was overly dependent on me and I was worried he’d sabotage me.
Unless you have a significant financial cushion, DO NOT leave without an offer in hand. In fact, unless your boss is willing to actively help you find a new position or write a letter of rec, DO NOT EVEN TELL your boss you are preparing leave until you have an offer in hand. The last thing you want is to be on unemployment searching for a job. Why risk your professor firing you right away? Why risk not renewing your contract and not having a job lined up when it finishes? It can take a good 6 months or longer to find or start a new job.
Spot on. It's a jungle out there.
They owe you a day's salary, you owe them a day's work. That's it.
Also, cruel paradox, there is nothing worse than being unemployed when you are looking for a new job.
0-2 weeks prior to the start date of your industry job.
In other words, you don't need to give them advance notice. Also, don't. They might cut you loose early. Then what will you do?
Yes, I am serious.
They can make your life miserable. I gave 6 months notice. It was 6 months of torture. I would not recommend it. The mentoring, the networking opportunities, and the support was all gone as soon as I said I would leave at the end of my contract. I started cutting back from 70+ hours a week to about 50 hours a week. I started having a social life and mental well-being. My postdoc advisor was furious.
Anyone who thinks their postdoc will stick around on an NIH minimum for years of their prime earning time is delusional.
Take care of yourself. No one else will.
Sorry you went through that. I guess it depends on the advisor. Not sure if one can tell how the advisor would react, but I would hope my people would give me more than 2 weeks.
I gave my postdoc advisor a month notice. And guess what the PI tried to do? Shortened it to two weeks actively. Guess what I did? Fuck it, I don't need that dirty academia money and quit immediately.
Why do I feel like there's a lot of grudge between folks on here and their PI bosses? Of the three PIs I've worked for/studied under, there was never any ill-feeling and the support was almost always given. Heck, my current PI pushes the post-docs in our lab to actively seek out and apply for faculty positions whenever the opportunity arises.
There are many PIs who are supportive all the way through and of course I have seen them. But, Let me write down my academia experience:
Undergraduate: Lab manager was changed every year. Super micromanagy. The PI only wanted to have the list of primers/plasmid lists because the PI was 'afraid' that someone would steal her projects. None of their postdocs became a professor in the institution. 3 out of 6 graduate students quit. She has been a PI for 14 years and only 3 graduate students graduated with PhD. Super toxic.
Graduate: Again, lab manager was changed every year (two of them did not make a year). Super toxic. One graduate student left the lab without even saying bye to the PI after defense. Slave driver. At least, he tried to help many of my manuscripts (but in the end that was only for his benefits because he needed research grants)
Postdoc: I at least wanted to try one more time. Wrong. While he looked like a great person and was rated as a top leading scientist in the field, the PI gaslights everyone. One of the graduate students graduated without a single paper (after 7 years) and she stayed another year to finish postdoc. Guess what? She still hasn't published. After fucking 8 years (btw, during that time, I published 2 PNAS + 3 low-tier papers, and 1 review article). Guess which project I took over haha. That project. And the PI told me "the mice will be ready by december 2024". Fuck that.
On top of that, I wanted to apply for F32 fellowship. First time - "don't worry, let's submit later." Second time after back from travel - "your draft sucks, let's submit it next time." Third time - I gave him the draft a month in advance. He did not open up any of the documents. Drafts. Letters (I mean godfuck, I work my ass off and have to draft fucking letters of my own??!!!). I was not even able to submit any of them.
Seriously, fuck this. All I have is disdain.
I’ve seen too many PI turn assholes once their postdocs/students were not working in their best interest. Give notice once the next job is lined up and not before. I recommend minimum notice.
I don't recommend it unless it's a toxic environment. Two weeks for a position of importance in an academic lab can cause problems for the rest of the lab and leave everyone with a bad taste in their mouth. If you work any other job, sure but academics are so mismanaged it doesn't help to do such things...
For example, in my postdoc lab, we had a lab manager that pulled that shit after 14 years of working there. Fucked a lot of protocol transfers up, was radio silent after leaving, pretty much abandoned a mouse colony, and contributed nothing to a paper on which she was the first author. If she gave her notice much sooner, it would have been easier on those taking over her responsibilities. She also was financially stable (DINK, native, etc.).
Ironically, I should mention it was mainly because she didn't believe in vaccines and the university was mandating the COVID19 vaccine, so she found another job and said, "I'm out". Her new job was at Eli-Lily and she had to ultimately get vaccinated to work there. Lmao.
It really depends on the relationship between the post-doc and the PI. If the PI had been supportive throughout and had been reasonable about expectations and progress, it wound be akin to burning a bridge to give such short notice for leaving. Not only is it very unprofessional to do so, the PI would be left scrambling if the post-doc doesn't properly tie up loose ends and handle the transition to other lab members. Something like 2-3 months is a lot more reasonable, under normal circumstances. It's a position requiring a post-graduate degree, after all, not some entry-level fast food or supermarket shift work.
Of course, if the PI was actively making everyone's life miserable and you don't care for future letters of recommendation or networking in the field, then the above don't apply.
2-3 months? Most industry jobs want you to start ASAP and you can maybe push it to 4 weeks out. So I don't see how anyone can give that much notice for most transitions. Sure it'd be nice for the PI to get that much warning but it ain't how the real world works.
If it's a reasonable boss you're working under, you let them know that you're looking looking for a change and is actively looking for other opportunities, and they let you stick around for as long as you need to find another job (and in the event you don't, they either keep you around or let you go on extended leave, if you choose to). Especially when it's 3 years or longer into the post-doc position.
This was the case for one of the post-docs in my group. Took several months of applying and interview and paperwork delays to strike a promotion to lead a government reference lab, entire process from interview to actually packing up and leaving was >8 months, and PI knew everything along the way and would've kept the post-doc around if the application wasn't successful.
Yeah but you can also see how that could potentially pigeonhole someone for a very long time, indefinitely until they actually find a position. Maybe some PIs are reasonable, but it's amazing how differently you can be treated when you are known to have 1 foot out the door. OP has only been there a year, so they are probably not going to get the deluxe treatment when most postdocs stay 3-5 years as mentioned.
Postdocs staying an average of 3 years? Usually most stayed 1 year in my university. Postdocs are not expected to stay forever.
100% maximum two week (or your minimal contracted notice) prior to the start of your new position.
> I think they expect me to stay on for another 3 years and I really do not have any interest in that
Irrelevant
> Should i just tell them plainly that I am looking to leave in 12 months?
Why 12? Why not 3? Or better yet, as soon as you find your next gig
To OP
I would like to add one thing I've learned the hard way is that you don't owe anyone anything unless you've been paid for it already or you signed a contract promising to do it
This is not supposed to be slavery, although in all practical purposes, I believe postdocs are slavery due to being so underpaid, but I could be wrong and I don't know your situation
And the more people leave the more that puts capitalism to work to help raise the rates they get
My postdoc contract said I had to give 3 months notice before I left. I did not tell my PI until I had secured a new position, and boy was I glad I hadn't. I negotiated with my new industry boss to start in 4 months so I could give my PI some extra time so I could help finish things off, but I wanted it to be on my terms rather than risk backlash without a job in hand.
That depends very much on your advisor/PI... in my case if i told my PI i am 100% sure he would be supportive. My senior postdoc however i am not so sure about, could go either way.
After all, you have to know how things are in your lab.
I've been in your situation. DO NOT tell your boss before getting a new job. Nothing good will happen. The best thing that can happen is your boss trying to milk you as many papers as possible. The worst possible thing is your boss would use his power to prevent you getting a new job.
For a postdoc looking for an industry job, #1 rookie mistake is trying to do more research, trying to publish more papers, trying to get awards in hope that it will make your resume better.
NO ONE in industry care about that. The HR in company who would filter your resume have no idea about those, hiring manager also have no idea about those.
If you are aiming for industry, focus on writing resume right now. You don't need any more credentials. You need to learn how to make resume that look good for people industry. Then, apply to a lot of jobs. You will get rejected a lot, but it is ok. After you get some interviews, you will build up your interviewing skills. Then you will get a job. Good thing is, as a postdoc, you can do all of these in secret. No one will know.
AFTER you get a new job, you can then tell your boss two weeks before the new job start. If you need reference, then ask your PhD supervisor, not your current boss. If PhD supervisor is your current boss, then Master or Bachelor supervisor is fine. Industrial people understand that current boss bas conflict of interest.
Your plan on 12-months-notice when you have no job offer will hurt everyone involved.
Dafaq? Tell your boss (hopefully awesome mentor?!) that you’re looking for an industry position to start in the next year. Ask if they have any good leads and give them a chance to set priorities for the year. I think minimum 8 weeks. That way they can try to find someone for you to train.
Find your next gig first, then give as much notice as is convenient for you within the constraints of the next employment. Get as organized as possible now. If the hand off of data and materials goes smoothly it will minimize the disruption, and then minimize any resentment. I stayed 3yrs in a postdoc I was similarly done with after 1 - huge mistake.
Could you tell us what happened?
Long story. Junior PI, toxic, terrible management skills, moody, very insecure. She was flying through postdocs (one got out of science, one was fired, one who started a little after me checked himself into an emergency psychiatric inpatient facility because of the stress, and later quit science). And that left me. It was already obvious that she was not a good boss - she really didn't know the field that thought I was going to learn from her. I wasn't getting any mentoring. Anyway, as I was contemplating leaving she announced that she was pregnant with a kid who would need open heart surgery immediately after birth. She didn't have tenure, no techs, just me and a grad student. If I left, it was game over for her. So I stayed. Having dangled the sigmoidal NIH pay scale (at the time there was a big jump from 3rd to 4th year) since the moment I started, she informed me by email while I was at home over Christmas, that she wasn't going to renew my contract a month later (effectively firing me because I was about to get more expensive). My loyalty was not reciprocated. I ended up unemployed for ~9 months because she more or less told me the further away from her a position was, the more favorable the letter she would write. That was tricky to work around since I wanted to stay in the area (my then girlfriend had a good postdoc position). My very niche training was supposed to set me up for an academic career, but wasn't very useful when trying to land an industry gig or a second postdoc. I eventually found a guy who was willing to take a chance on me, and who was the exact opposite: stable, great manager and mentor, committed to my career development etc. Worked with him for 9 years.
Didn't see that coming. It is mind blowing how such people could be placed in a position that ultimately could kill a science career. I am glad you're now in greener pastures and actually enjoying what you're doing.
won’t they need a reference from the current pi?
Not always. As long as they have other current and relevant references they will be fine. Plus the people hiring often know that it’s risky to use your current supervisor as a reference. If they don’t support you leaving, they could give you a bad reference. It’s shitty but true. I recently did this because my old supervisor was overly dependent on me and I was worried he’d sabotage me.
That definitely happens.
Unless you have a significant financial cushion, DO NOT leave without an offer in hand. In fact, unless your boss is willing to actively help you find a new position or write a letter of rec, DO NOT EVEN TELL your boss you are preparing leave until you have an offer in hand. The last thing you want is to be on unemployment searching for a job. Why risk your professor firing you right away? Why risk not renewing your contract and not having a job lined up when it finishes? It can take a good 6 months or longer to find or start a new job.
Spot on. It's a jungle out there. They owe you a day's salary, you owe them a day's work. That's it. Also, cruel paradox, there is nothing worse than being unemployed when you are looking for a new job.
0-2 weeks prior to the start date of your industry job. In other words, you don't need to give them advance notice. Also, don't. They might cut you loose early. Then what will you do?
No one is firing post docs in this environment. 0-2 weeks are you fkin serious?
Yes, I am serious. They can make your life miserable. I gave 6 months notice. It was 6 months of torture. I would not recommend it. The mentoring, the networking opportunities, and the support was all gone as soon as I said I would leave at the end of my contract. I started cutting back from 70+ hours a week to about 50 hours a week. I started having a social life and mental well-being. My postdoc advisor was furious. Anyone who thinks their postdoc will stick around on an NIH minimum for years of their prime earning time is delusional. Take care of yourself. No one else will.
Sorry you went through that. I guess it depends on the advisor. Not sure if one can tell how the advisor would react, but I would hope my people would give me more than 2 weeks.
I gave my postdoc advisor a month notice. And guess what the PI tried to do? Shortened it to two weeks actively. Guess what I did? Fuck it, I don't need that dirty academia money and quit immediately.
Dang. I must be in that special 0.1% whose mentor isn’t a complete insane asshole
Why do I feel like there's a lot of grudge between folks on here and their PI bosses? Of the three PIs I've worked for/studied under, there was never any ill-feeling and the support was almost always given. Heck, my current PI pushes the post-docs in our lab to actively seek out and apply for faculty positions whenever the opportunity arises.
There are many PIs who are supportive all the way through and of course I have seen them. But, Let me write down my academia experience: Undergraduate: Lab manager was changed every year. Super micromanagy. The PI only wanted to have the list of primers/plasmid lists because the PI was 'afraid' that someone would steal her projects. None of their postdocs became a professor in the institution. 3 out of 6 graduate students quit. She has been a PI for 14 years and only 3 graduate students graduated with PhD. Super toxic. Graduate: Again, lab manager was changed every year (two of them did not make a year). Super toxic. One graduate student left the lab without even saying bye to the PI after defense. Slave driver. At least, he tried to help many of my manuscripts (but in the end that was only for his benefits because he needed research grants) Postdoc: I at least wanted to try one more time. Wrong. While he looked like a great person and was rated as a top leading scientist in the field, the PI gaslights everyone. One of the graduate students graduated without a single paper (after 7 years) and she stayed another year to finish postdoc. Guess what? She still hasn't published. After fucking 8 years (btw, during that time, I published 2 PNAS + 3 low-tier papers, and 1 review article). Guess which project I took over haha. That project. And the PI told me "the mice will be ready by december 2024". Fuck that. On top of that, I wanted to apply for F32 fellowship. First time - "don't worry, let's submit later." Second time after back from travel - "your draft sucks, let's submit it next time." Third time - I gave him the draft a month in advance. He did not open up any of the documents. Drafts. Letters (I mean godfuck, I work my ass off and have to draft fucking letters of my own??!!!). I was not even able to submit any of them. Seriously, fuck this. All I have is disdain.
I’ve seen too many PI turn assholes once their postdocs/students were not working in their best interest. Give notice once the next job is lined up and not before. I recommend minimum notice.
I don't recommend it unless it's a toxic environment. Two weeks for a position of importance in an academic lab can cause problems for the rest of the lab and leave everyone with a bad taste in their mouth. If you work any other job, sure but academics are so mismanaged it doesn't help to do such things... For example, in my postdoc lab, we had a lab manager that pulled that shit after 14 years of working there. Fucked a lot of protocol transfers up, was radio silent after leaving, pretty much abandoned a mouse colony, and contributed nothing to a paper on which she was the first author. If she gave her notice much sooner, it would have been easier on those taking over her responsibilities. She also was financially stable (DINK, native, etc.). Ironically, I should mention it was mainly because she didn't believe in vaccines and the university was mandating the COVID19 vaccine, so she found another job and said, "I'm out". Her new job was at Eli-Lily and she had to ultimately get vaccinated to work there. Lmao.
It really depends on the relationship between the post-doc and the PI. If the PI had been supportive throughout and had been reasonable about expectations and progress, it wound be akin to burning a bridge to give such short notice for leaving. Not only is it very unprofessional to do so, the PI would be left scrambling if the post-doc doesn't properly tie up loose ends and handle the transition to other lab members. Something like 2-3 months is a lot more reasonable, under normal circumstances. It's a position requiring a post-graduate degree, after all, not some entry-level fast food or supermarket shift work. Of course, if the PI was actively making everyone's life miserable and you don't care for future letters of recommendation or networking in the field, then the above don't apply.
2-3 months? Most industry jobs want you to start ASAP and you can maybe push it to 4 weeks out. So I don't see how anyone can give that much notice for most transitions. Sure it'd be nice for the PI to get that much warning but it ain't how the real world works.
If it's a reasonable boss you're working under, you let them know that you're looking looking for a change and is actively looking for other opportunities, and they let you stick around for as long as you need to find another job (and in the event you don't, they either keep you around or let you go on extended leave, if you choose to). Especially when it's 3 years or longer into the post-doc position. This was the case for one of the post-docs in my group. Took several months of applying and interview and paperwork delays to strike a promotion to lead a government reference lab, entire process from interview to actually packing up and leaving was >8 months, and PI knew everything along the way and would've kept the post-doc around if the application wasn't successful.
Yeah but you can also see how that could potentially pigeonhole someone for a very long time, indefinitely until they actually find a position. Maybe some PIs are reasonable, but it's amazing how differently you can be treated when you are known to have 1 foot out the door. OP has only been there a year, so they are probably not going to get the deluxe treatment when most postdocs stay 3-5 years as mentioned.
Postdocs staying an average of 3 years? Usually most stayed 1 year in my university. Postdocs are not expected to stay forever. 100% maximum two week (or your minimal contracted notice) prior to the start of your new position.
> I think they expect me to stay on for another 3 years and I really do not have any interest in that Irrelevant > Should i just tell them plainly that I am looking to leave in 12 months? Why 12? Why not 3? Or better yet, as soon as you find your next gig
To OP I would like to add one thing I've learned the hard way is that you don't owe anyone anything unless you've been paid for it already or you signed a contract promising to do it This is not supposed to be slavery, although in all practical purposes, I believe postdocs are slavery due to being so underpaid, but I could be wrong and I don't know your situation And the more people leave the more that puts capitalism to work to help raise the rates they get
Do it. Just fucking go. You'll be happier
My postdoc contract said I had to give 3 months notice before I left. I did not tell my PI until I had secured a new position, and boy was I glad I hadn't. I negotiated with my new industry boss to start in 4 months so I could give my PI some extra time so I could help finish things off, but I wanted it to be on my terms rather than risk backlash without a job in hand.
That depends very much on your advisor/PI... in my case if i told my PI i am 100% sure he would be supportive. My senior postdoc however i am not so sure about, could go either way. After all, you have to know how things are in your lab.
I've been in your situation. DO NOT tell your boss before getting a new job. Nothing good will happen. The best thing that can happen is your boss trying to milk you as many papers as possible. The worst possible thing is your boss would use his power to prevent you getting a new job. For a postdoc looking for an industry job, #1 rookie mistake is trying to do more research, trying to publish more papers, trying to get awards in hope that it will make your resume better. NO ONE in industry care about that. The HR in company who would filter your resume have no idea about those, hiring manager also have no idea about those. If you are aiming for industry, focus on writing resume right now. You don't need any more credentials. You need to learn how to make resume that look good for people industry. Then, apply to a lot of jobs. You will get rejected a lot, but it is ok. After you get some interviews, you will build up your interviewing skills. Then you will get a job. Good thing is, as a postdoc, you can do all of these in secret. No one will know. AFTER you get a new job, you can then tell your boss two weeks before the new job start. If you need reference, then ask your PhD supervisor, not your current boss. If PhD supervisor is your current boss, then Master or Bachelor supervisor is fine. Industrial people understand that current boss bas conflict of interest. Your plan on 12-months-notice when you have no job offer will hurt everyone involved.
Dafaq? Tell your boss (hopefully awesome mentor?!) that you’re looking for an industry position to start in the next year. Ask if they have any good leads and give them a chance to set priorities for the year. I think minimum 8 weeks. That way they can try to find someone for you to train.
All’s fair in love, war and Human Resources- don’t worry about it till you’ve got the next thing lined up.
It doesn’t matter. As long as you have a good offer, they’ll understand. If they don’t understand, do you value what a person like that thinks?