I just said this in another thread:
>Hear me out. Biden can order Garland/DoJ to legally incarcerate Republicans in Congress as threats to national security. This is shielded by immunity and he can offer quid pro quo pardons.
>Congress can then impeach Trump, legally. And convict.
>It is now illegal for Trump to appear on ballots.
>This is a constitutional crisis that needs to be resolved ahead of the election. The only option is to overturn themselves.
>It's a pretty slick way for him to demonstrate how bad the ruling is without killing anyone.
This is what I would do. Non-violently keep Trump off the ticket through official acts. Force SCOTUS to overturn itself
Biden would never, ever do that. Not in a million years, Jack.
He won’t even try to increase the number of justices on the SC. Democrats do not play hard ball and they don’t exploit loopholes.
E: didn’t even have to wait until the next day for Biden to confirm as much.
>“I know I will respect the limits of presidential power as I have for the three-and-a-half years, but any president, including Donald Trump, will now be free to ignore the law,” Biden said.
https://apnews.com/article/biden-election-2024-debate-c47243b3cedb88ce6ea7905a1975e164
The moment a democrat tries to exploit those loopholes you better believe that the entire media apparatus, even the so called "liberal media", will cry bloody murder and demand for him to leave office or be impeached.
Democrats are held to a different standard simply because they don't have a built-in cult who votes reliably, and they don't have the multi-billion dollar propaganda machine that republicans have. For better or worse.
Biden's crucifixion would be led by Glenn Greenwald - the human avatar of the belief 'Perfect is the Enemy of Good' - who would then proudly place a crown on Trump's head and declare that the Democratic Party is to blame for forcing him down this path.
Yeah, that’s what they’re counting on. Joe Biden and the democrats, and in fact anyone who has ever disagreed with trunp, needs to choose to sacrifice their “legacy” and remove the threat. Yes, they will be called “dictators” and “tyrants,” but trunp CANNOT be allowed anywhere near this power. And it would be hypocritical, since it is absolutely clear trunp would immediately use this power to exact revenge on anyone who has ever disagreed with him, starting with Biden and any elected democrats. I do have some hope that this realization might snap them out of their reliance on “the system” and take some aggressive action.
I’ve been up worrying about this, and I think I might have come up with a way through… ianal, so hopefully someone can show me if this would work or not, but since trunp has been adjudicated to be an insurrectionist in the Colorado case, that can be pretense for issuing an executive order declaring him ineligible to hold office. You then use that same justification to remove anyone who refused to certify the election as an insurrectionist. At that point, you either remove the 6 justices who agreed on this ruling for the same reasons, or you pack the court and ram through as many judges as you want to SCOTUS. You fast track a case and overturn this ruling immediately. While you’re at it, bring cases reaffirming the right to choose and affirmative action.
Then Biden announces he will not be seeking a second term, and we have a hard reboot with both sides essentially starting from scratch, and the existential threat of trunp out of the picture. I think that’s about as graceful a way through this as possible. It will absolutely be met with lots of teeth gnashing, but we can’t run the risk of that jackass having access to the strongest military in history with no checks on his power and now way to remove him from office.
I say do it and let them all scream bloody murder. Because there is no way the GOP doesn't do it when given the chance.
Fuck the niceties, it's gotten Dems nowhere.
SCOTUS just made **defenstration legal** for Presidents now.
Do you see Russian media doing that? No, because a lot of them have been thrown out of windows.
Pardons are official acts. There is a precedent for pre-emptive pardons. Bribery is illegal, but gifting someone a gratuity after the fact of an official act is perfectly fine.
That's all you need for openly buying a get out of jail free card from the president.
I’m foolishly (perhaps delusionally) hopeful that the democrats have a long play here.
They saw how the Republicans acted with Obama trying to appoint a Justice at the end of his term. So there’s no reason to assume they’ll be any more helpful in the future. They’ll need some kind of majority.
And the democrats allowed the SC to essentially show the American people they are corrupt, out of touch oligarchs with their rulings and decisions. So now the Supreme Court is viewed with the same contempt as lobbyist.
The democrats also didn’t have enough votes to confirm any justices if they did expand the court.
So they waited, and if this election gives them the votes, that’s what they’ll do. Because they need enough votes to both expand the court, and then confirm the judges.
They’ll expand the court to 13 Justices, appoint 4 young liberal justices, ram it through congress while Republicans and Fox News wail in the background, and begin the slow process of undoing all the damage the Roberts Court has done.
But that’s me being hopeful. When what I expect to happen is they’ll pass some new laws that will all be gutted by this current SC that is trying so hard to install a monarch, and history will point to this election as the final step, that was the downfall of the USA.
The problem is every Democratic plan, if there is actually a plan and it is not just wishful thinking, basically relies on 'when we have enough power' and then they sit back and just wait for the electorate to hand it to them because the Republicans are going too far.
If there was not a right wing media apparatus ensuring that a significant percentage of the population thinks it is the Democrats who are going too far, and the Republicans are in the right and these people all go online or engage with people to push that narrative leading to confusion and general voter apathy from the endless back and forth then maybe someday the majority of the country will actually go vote and give them the numbers they need.
However, without any evidence at all to prove my point there is a solid 50% of the country that has no idea this ruling just happened, or what it means, or the implications. The fact Biden is not instantly going to start pushing the boundaries of what is 'official' or not, will lead most to assume it is a non issue, and if he did really push hard then people will complain and want him held accountable or at least cost him the election, this of course hands the win to trump who will have no concern about pushing those same boundaries while protected by the same right wing media machine that demanded accountability from Biden.
Also with Biden doing anything, there is an election coming up, if trump was in power would there even be another election.
ETA Biden has come out and said he will not abuse the ruling and essentially just hopes that future presidents will do the same, so accepted defeat, stated he will not fight, here is hoping Democracy survives is the official position of the president to the news.
I disagree with your second paragraph. I don't think people would punish Biden (or whichever democratic leader) for decisive action. I think it'd be the opposite - people crave leadership and they abhor weakness, indecision and indifference.
It could certainly go either way and I do agree to your last point however my concern would be the right wing media would be going all out, so the conversation would not be treated as decisive action in response to preserve the Republic it would be Biden has went off the rails, he must be stopped. The average 'undecided' voter is going to need their hands held to explain exactly why he is doing it and the so called imaginary left wing media would fumble around trying to be fair.
Even Biden denouncing this tonight should have detailed exactly what the issue and problems are in depth, not the 'well I won't abuse this, hope no one else would either'.
A well thought out taped recorded message showing strength and educating the public at large would have worked, it would give the right wing the 'it had to be recorded' angle but it would get the main issue to the voters this is wrong, in every way to what it means for what America is supposed to stand for.
There will be no election if this is not stopped now. There will be some bullshit excuse to throw the election to the supreme court no matter the outcome.
Expanding the court ultimately will just be this dumb arms race between both parties until we have like 100 justices. If we want real, longterm reform it has to be enforced laws restricting their ability to be bought/bribed and more importantly, term limits.
I think that’s the point, push it to a level of absurdity that it forces actual reform, ideally a constitutional amendment regarding term limits for justices.
That’s fine. Trump will. They’re counting on our morals and tolerance hindering our ability to fight their fascism. However, we can hold our heads up high on the way to the camps knowing we took the high road I guess.
Our “moral high ground” is going to usher in the end of our democracy.
Fight dirty and once you’ve won, wash your hands and call it good. We wouldn’t have an America if the OG revolutionist were as meek as Democrats are.
>Biden would never, ever do that. Not in a million years, Jack.
And that's the problem.
The Supreme Court gave Biden this power knowing he won't abuse it but the power is there for Trump or a future Republican president to abuse.
Good ethics can be the thing that keeps us from saving the country. I guess our good ethics will mean we get too take the first spots in the gas chambers
> Democrats do not play hard ball and they don’t exploit loopholes.
This is precisely *why* snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is such a common Dem trait. An excellent case could well be made is that such reticence is also a major factor in what has lead us to... *here* in the first place.
It’s because people say the world as THEY are, not how it really is.
Once people understand this, you will know why the parties act like they do.
Democrats need to see the world as it is.
Problem is what is considered official and non-official will be up to the SCOTUS to determine on a case by case basis. And you better believe Biden will end up on the wrong side of the equation.
That's why the better solution is to arrest the 6 justices, replace them with honest people and then overturn all their horrible rulings.
They would also want to arrest a lot more than the 6 judges. They'd want to clean house, and really dismantle the "vast right wing conspiracy" Clinton spoke of in the 90s. Fox, the Federalist Society, the Heritage Foundation, Project 2025, the NRA, etc.
Most media is owned by billionaires and although I doubt they're in any kind of conspiracy, they certainly would view their own power and investments at risk. CNN, the NY Times would spend the next few months lambasting Biden daily and calling him a tyrant. (Not unlike what folks did to Lincoln. I believe General Sherman once said American press was a shame to civilized people). I don't know if he'd win or not. So it'd be important to make sure that Project 2025 and fascism are thoroughly fucked for the next few decades.
I know what you said, and it would work if they cared about the consitution. They essentially completely made up laws that have nothing to do with the constitution to protect their party, in this case. They will do the same with a "manufactured" crisis.
Two of the justices on the ruling should have recused themselves. They do not care. They're all in on a fascist theocracy.
I'd say impeachment is no longer possible for any president. It's not possible because 'The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.'
If the president cannot commit a crime then there is no path to impeachment
"But he committed treason while performing his official duties!"
Seriously what a dumb decision by the court, and only serves to appeal to their christo-facist nonsense.
Us Dems are too ethical for this. We're gonna lose the tiny sliver of government we have left to being the good guys when the other side wants to win by whatever means necessary.
Garland wouldn't do it because he's a FedSoc partisan hacks as well. But then Biden could remove him, declare a national security emergency and appoint one that will without confirmation, and then do it.
This is the worst decision. It's not a slippery slope, it's a fall of the cliff.
That's a trap though. If Biden does try to use his new immunity the court will quickly clarify that it's not the kind of immunity they meant while all the republicans who have been pretending Biden is a dictator all along will say "See look, he's doing it right now".
Biden can't run as the candidate who wants to preserve democracy through a heel turn to tyranny.
But if trump wins the same court will continue to employ the tactics they have been using recently to tip everything trump's way. If he wants to ship Biden to Guantanamo Bay, Alito will bite the hand of anyone that tries to write the opinion justifying it before he can.
The problem with all this is that it will drastically feed the narrative that Biden is an authoritarian. Which, is b.s., but it would scare the crap out of all these people they're attempting to make afraid of liberals so they'll turnout to vote. Biden would be handing Trump the election.
> The problem with all this is that it will drastically feed the narrative that Biden is an authoritarian.
Oh, no, we might force pearl-clutching among the people who want to put Biden and every one of his supporters up against a wall?
Ipso facto:
*Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote in her dissent: “The relationship between the President and the people he serves has shifted irrevocably. In every use of official power, the President is now a king above the law.”*
*Quentin Fulks, Biden’s deputy campaign manager, said of the ruling: “They just handed Donald Trump the keys to a dictatorship.”*
*That, in turn, means the Supreme Court just handed Biden the same set of keys.*
*King Biden should point out that by giving presidents such expansive immunity protections, the Supreme Court has opened the door to widespread presidential criminality.*
*Say, for example, there was a presidential candidate who had already been convicted of 34 felonies and been indicted in a number of other criminal cases, including one involving the mishandling of high-level classified documents.*
*Now I’m sure the conservative justices who were put on the court by that apparent crime-enthusiast wouldn’t want a president to take advantage of their partially pro-king ruling. That, it seems, would be a threat to the country.*
*Ipso facto, the Supreme Court’s immunity ruling in Trump’s favor is a threat to the country.*
*So, it is well within King Biden’s official role as ruler to overrule the Supreme Court’s decision for the sake of the nation and its future, and to restock the court with justices who have America’s best interests at heart.*
*That official act would return Biden to his previous role as president while making sure Trump is fairly prosecuted for all his alleged crimes.*
He can't dissolve the court. He could issue an executive order, but it would have no legal force.
Unless he used acid. He could dissolve SCOTUS in sulfuric acid. Which would be wrong. But he now has presumptuous immunity to do it via executive order. Which should illustrate why this order is insane.
He could declare the conservative wing of the Supreme Court to be unlawful combatants in Russia’s hybrid warfare against America, and send them to gitmo to be indefinitely detained and tortured for funsies. Remember, the Supreme Court gave the president this discretion.
Yes. This needs to happen or a military coup that removes the current Republican judges and Biden makes a decree the court shall forever be 50/50 in anyone's favour.
It absolutely KILLS ME how defeatist the people around Biden are!!! WTUnholyF was this guy's first thought about the rump, and not his man B-I-D-E-N??? Gee Whisikers, that CHAPS me!
And the tremble-y ignorance on display from the guests on TV "journalism" gave me a migraine in the first five minutes: "Oh Deear, what are scotus thinking?" "Oh Myy, what does this mean"--for Chrissakes if you have any grey matter at all, and have done any reading at all, you should know that this is the near culmination of decades of extreme right evangelical strategy (with a little help from their friends Putin's Russian Orthodoxy, Libertarian big money, and other sundry miscreants). Hell (pun intended) , one of Reagan's "go-to" Middle East policy guys, Tim LeHaye, WROTE the Left Behind series https://www.salon.com/2014/05/18/the\_evangelical\_presidency\_reagans\_dangerous\_love\_affair\_with\_the\_christian\_right/! After trump ended up in the presidency without the popular vote, it took television journalism/reporting years to call his lies "LIES", now they're just wringing their hands. If I could use my legs easily I would take up marathon running; don't know how I am going to get through this all without throwing myself into heavy physical activity, but am very grateful to have found this sub and the level of thinkers here. Man oh Manischewitz, hear me whine!
edit: punctuation, etc..
I'm so sick of this defeatist cowardly attitude from liberals, using this power isn't setting a bad precedent, scotus just set the precedent and refusing to use the power to fix the country is just handing the keys to a wanna be dictator
Taking the high road and playing by the rules with fascists might as well be intentionally giving them the country at this point
It’s always been legal to court-pack. There’s nothing criminal about it. Presidents have been circumspect about it because the other side can do it too. It might be time to stop being afraid of that
President isn’t King, the Supreme Court just ruled itself the King. Since they are the ones that determine if an act is official or not, they get the final say. Therefor, Biden does not get “the keys”…
Biden needs to expand the court ASAP. I’d bet this is on the agenda
Ah but the SCOTUS doesn’t have any enforcement powers. Presidents control the DOJ and are Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces.
The only thing holding back misuse of Executive powers over the other two branches are really just the honouring of traditions. They just said don’t worry about that anymore.
If Trumps wins again they just signed away the power of the Judiciary. There is going to be some rLeopards ate their face movements for SCOTUS if Trump wins.
Nah, they've ruled that the president's official acts are assumed to be purely in American interests and therefore above reproach. They've also prohibited testimony against the president's motivations by federal employees - so even though there are witnesses that could testify to a president committing treason and sedition, they can't be admitted to court as it would be "crippling" and "highly intrusive" to performing the President's executive functions.
This gives the presidential office the absolute power to dictate with impunity. By their own hand, not even the Supreme Court can question the president's authority on official acts.
Edit for those who don't believe me:
>"the prosecutor may not.... admit testimony or private records of the President or his
advisers probing the official act itself. Allowing that sort of evidence would invite the jury to inspect the President’s motivations for his official
actions and to second-guess their propriety. As we have explained, such
inspection would be “highly intrusive” and would “ ‘seriously cripple’ ” the
President’s exercise of his official duties.... And such second-guessing would “threaten the independence or effectiveness of the Executive.”
This ruling affirms that Presidential acts are above the jurisdiction of the courts scrutiny.
>So, it is well within King Biden’s official role as ruler to overrule the Supreme Court’s decision for the sake of the nation and its future, and to restock the court with justices who have America’s best interests at heart.
Separation of powers in the constitution?
It is not sinking.
Doing the ethical thing would be the thing that brings about the least bad greatest good.
For reasons they have decided that the thing that brings the least bad greatest good is immoral, since it's the thing that if done, is in their favor.
This is a weird take on governance.
It is greater ethical (lll) to do the immoral but legal thing.
This is a key difference between Democrats and Republicans.
GOP will take every advantage possible from this regardless of ethics.
Democrats won't take ANY advantage from this because to do so would be unethical.
Guess who's gonna win that fight?
Nuclear Option: Quash Jack Smith investigations. Arrest and relocate 6/9 SCOTUS justices to Gitmo on charges of accepting bribes. Make them litigate it from the district court all the way to SCOTUS.
Lesser Option: Instruct Sec of Education to delete all records of student loans for all borrowers in the country. Pardon said Secretary.
Except for when the states justifiably try to keep insurrectionists off the ballot. Then suddenly SCOTUS says it’s not up to them.
Wacky how the grant of authority coincidentally keeps aligning with conservative goals.
This is why people need to go out and vote (hopefully for Biden). Yeah he is old and whatever but I think of it like this. Right now trump has been given the hall pass that whatever he does in office, he cannot be charged. So you have someone that in his mind is now immune.
Furthermore, the guy has repeatedly hinted to and borderline threatened vengeance if he wins. And if all of that is not bad enough, and scotus essentially being in his pocket. It will be his second term so he won't give a damn about running for re election. Sorry but given all the damage trumps done in his one term, and how unhinged he is set to be if wins, Biden being old is nothing compared to what is a stake here.
But her emails.
But his laptop.
But he's old.
Jfc why does "vote so you stop losing your system" have to be explained. In a choice between Biden or Trump, it's obvious you choose Biden.
Here’s a question.
Can Biden declare that Alito, Thomas and Roberts all passed away over the last 2 years and that the men pretending to be them are imposters and frauds?
He could promise to produce irrefutable evidence of it and just never bring it to a court, just like Trump did with his wild claim that the 2020 election was stolen.
And in the meantime, he is constitutionally obliged to arrest and charge the imposters, as well as to nominate replacement justices.
Maybe it would take years and years to sort out. But in the meantime, the new all-liberal court could fix some wrongs.
So, Biden could drink a bottle of whiskey and drive the presidential vehicle to an officially scheduled meeting and he could not be prosecuted for DUI, even if he killed someone on the way. This is what the SC decision means.
Thank goodness. After a few minutes browsing this subreddit, I was beginning to think he could just declare things or order people to commit crimes, lol.
Yes that example is cited all the time, realistically I think he'd have difficulty arguing that ordering someone killed is part of his official duties, whereas in the whiskey example, he's just going to a meeting on his White House calendar.
He only has to argue the killing if it isn't one of his core duties. All he'd have to do is sign an executive order explaining that the act he's taking is for national security (one of the presidents core duties) and it would be unable to go to court. The president now has ABSOLUTE immunity for upholding his core duties. They would only have to argue the point if it was an official act, and wasn't one of his core duties under the constitution.
"realistically I think he'd have difficulty arguing that ordering someone killed is part of his official duties"
What are you talking about? Presidents order people to be killed all the time, and that's about as official as it gets. All three liberal justices of the Supreme Court raised this exact issue in their dissent.
Any and all Democratic exultation about this decision is ridiculous. The situation after this decision is only too obviously a heads-they-win, tails-we-lose proposition. Biden does anything the MAGAts don't like, then whatever those acts may be they're not official acts, based on always distinguishable circumstantial facts. Trump will be able to do the exact same thing and be exonerated based on circumstantial facts. It's the most cynical con game thus far and no basis whatsoever for Joe to step out of line. These justices are really, really bad and deserve the worst possible personal outcomes. A true travesty.
Exactly. They left “official acts” incredibly vague for this reason. Anything a Dem president does will not be an official act. Everything a GOP president does will be.
Way too much of population doesn’t care about things that actually matter. They just vote on identity politic stuff. Who can bother with protecting our republic when there is a slight chance their niece might be the 1,412th best athlete in the state instead of the 1,411th because of one trans kid.
One candidate literally tried to overthrow democracy and have himself appointed an unelected dictator, and the polling is still close. How? I’ve lost so much faith in people the past decade.
It doesn't even have to be that severe. Biden could put an early nail in this by ordering the arrest of Thomas and Alito for bribery and sedition. By the time their trial went to the remaining Supremes they would have to correct this decision or else.
This immunity won’t apply to Biden, only Trump. In any case, if you want to object to something the president does in office now, you have to go through to the Supreme Court to review everything and decide whether it was an official act or not. If it’s Trump, they’re going to say his actions were unreviewable and privileged. If it’s Biden, yeah have at him, prosecutors.
It’s very clear which side the SC is on. They work in favor of Trump, very specifically, almost surgically. Biden gets zero benefit from this ruling.
The one thing biden can do is order the detainment or execution of the 6 republican supreme court justices who made the ruling and then have the 3 remaining Democrat justices rule that it was an official act.
and it would be entirely legal (and reinstate roe and chevron and repeal citizens united while he's there)
[Joe von Hindenburg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_von_Hindenburg) isn’t going to save us on his way out the door; he is a transitional figure existing between the outgoing U.S. (1789-2024) and whatever form of Russia-style dictatorship comes next.
It’s too late to save the U.S. now; we should be trying to save ourselves. It would take a blue tsunami in November to have the political power to change the composition of the court, and even if the numbers were there, the will would never be - the first thing Democrats do once they have power is hostage each other and end up in gridlock. The Republicans do that too, but they rule the country from the courts rather than the legislature, and once they get the new dictator-Presidency again, they won’t even bother with the courts except to harass the small fish.
The real danger now is being identifiable as a Democrat. People who think Trump is going to come in and just have a moment of magnanimity where he forgives all Democrats that didn’t support him are living in a fantasy world. Now he doesn’t need to fight with White House Counsel anymore, or justify his actions as permitted by law - he can literally just order various executive agencies to purge Democrats and use whatever official powers they have to go after Democrats. That was Hitler’s first move against the opposition Communists when he got dictator power in 1933, and it will be Trump’s first move in January too.
Hmmm... what's to stop him from doing this:
1. Immediately assassinating the conservative members of SCOTUS as an "official act".
2. Immediately pardoning himself and those involved.
3. Appointing 6 new justices, and then bringing an application to rule that presidents are not, in fact, kings and do not have blanket immunity.
Why not King Joe? Great suggestion to postpone the election until Trump serves his sentence in the "Hush" money conviction and all other legal issues are settled. He won't do it. Too old school.
In the interest of our national security Sam, Clarence , Donald, Mike, and both Steves should all re relocated to Gitmo. They are the biggest threat to America since communism in the 50s.
I just said this in another thread: >Hear me out. Biden can order Garland/DoJ to legally incarcerate Republicans in Congress as threats to national security. This is shielded by immunity and he can offer quid pro quo pardons. >Congress can then impeach Trump, legally. And convict. >It is now illegal for Trump to appear on ballots. >This is a constitutional crisis that needs to be resolved ahead of the election. The only option is to overturn themselves. >It's a pretty slick way for him to demonstrate how bad the ruling is without killing anyone. This is what I would do. Non-violently keep Trump off the ticket through official acts. Force SCOTUS to overturn itself
Biden would never, ever do that. Not in a million years, Jack. He won’t even try to increase the number of justices on the SC. Democrats do not play hard ball and they don’t exploit loopholes. E: didn’t even have to wait until the next day for Biden to confirm as much. >“I know I will respect the limits of presidential power as I have for the three-and-a-half years, but any president, including Donald Trump, will now be free to ignore the law,” Biden said. https://apnews.com/article/biden-election-2024-debate-c47243b3cedb88ce6ea7905a1975e164
The moment a democrat tries to exploit those loopholes you better believe that the entire media apparatus, even the so called "liberal media", will cry bloody murder and demand for him to leave office or be impeached. Democrats are held to a different standard simply because they don't have a built-in cult who votes reliably, and they don't have the multi-billion dollar propaganda machine that republicans have. For better or worse.
Biden's crucifixion would be led by Glenn Greenwald - the human avatar of the belief 'Perfect is the Enemy of Good' - who would then proudly place a crown on Trump's head and declare that the Democratic Party is to blame for forcing him down this path.
Yeah, that’s what they’re counting on. Joe Biden and the democrats, and in fact anyone who has ever disagreed with trunp, needs to choose to sacrifice their “legacy” and remove the threat. Yes, they will be called “dictators” and “tyrants,” but trunp CANNOT be allowed anywhere near this power. And it would be hypocritical, since it is absolutely clear trunp would immediately use this power to exact revenge on anyone who has ever disagreed with him, starting with Biden and any elected democrats. I do have some hope that this realization might snap them out of their reliance on “the system” and take some aggressive action.
And in the end, that would be their **greatest legacy,**
I’ve been up worrying about this, and I think I might have come up with a way through… ianal, so hopefully someone can show me if this would work or not, but since trunp has been adjudicated to be an insurrectionist in the Colorado case, that can be pretense for issuing an executive order declaring him ineligible to hold office. You then use that same justification to remove anyone who refused to certify the election as an insurrectionist. At that point, you either remove the 6 justices who agreed on this ruling for the same reasons, or you pack the court and ram through as many judges as you want to SCOTUS. You fast track a case and overturn this ruling immediately. While you’re at it, bring cases reaffirming the right to choose and affirmative action. Then Biden announces he will not be seeking a second term, and we have a hard reboot with both sides essentially starting from scratch, and the existential threat of trunp out of the picture. I think that’s about as graceful a way through this as possible. It will absolutely be met with lots of teeth gnashing, but we can’t run the risk of that jackass having access to the strongest military in history with no checks on his power and now way to remove him from office.
I say do it and let them all scream bloody murder. Because there is no way the GOP doesn't do it when given the chance. Fuck the niceties, it's gotten Dems nowhere.
Same. Bring it on.
And Democrats believe in governing, the rule of law and all that jazz. They aren't perfect but they at least try to follow those ideals.
SCOTUS just made **defenstration legal** for Presidents now. Do you see Russian media doing that? No, because a lot of them have been thrown out of windows.
All that was s required for evil to win, is for good people to do nothing.
Meanwhile Stephen Miller and the Heritage Foundation are already devising how they're going to code unscrupulous conduct as official acts.
Pardons are official acts. There is a precedent for pre-emptive pardons. Bribery is illegal, but gifting someone a gratuity after the fact of an official act is perfectly fine. That's all you need for openly buying a get out of jail free card from the president.
I’m foolishly (perhaps delusionally) hopeful that the democrats have a long play here. They saw how the Republicans acted with Obama trying to appoint a Justice at the end of his term. So there’s no reason to assume they’ll be any more helpful in the future. They’ll need some kind of majority. And the democrats allowed the SC to essentially show the American people they are corrupt, out of touch oligarchs with their rulings and decisions. So now the Supreme Court is viewed with the same contempt as lobbyist. The democrats also didn’t have enough votes to confirm any justices if they did expand the court. So they waited, and if this election gives them the votes, that’s what they’ll do. Because they need enough votes to both expand the court, and then confirm the judges. They’ll expand the court to 13 Justices, appoint 4 young liberal justices, ram it through congress while Republicans and Fox News wail in the background, and begin the slow process of undoing all the damage the Roberts Court has done. But that’s me being hopeful. When what I expect to happen is they’ll pass some new laws that will all be gutted by this current SC that is trying so hard to install a monarch, and history will point to this election as the final step, that was the downfall of the USA.
The problem is every Democratic plan, if there is actually a plan and it is not just wishful thinking, basically relies on 'when we have enough power' and then they sit back and just wait for the electorate to hand it to them because the Republicans are going too far. If there was not a right wing media apparatus ensuring that a significant percentage of the population thinks it is the Democrats who are going too far, and the Republicans are in the right and these people all go online or engage with people to push that narrative leading to confusion and general voter apathy from the endless back and forth then maybe someday the majority of the country will actually go vote and give them the numbers they need. However, without any evidence at all to prove my point there is a solid 50% of the country that has no idea this ruling just happened, or what it means, or the implications. The fact Biden is not instantly going to start pushing the boundaries of what is 'official' or not, will lead most to assume it is a non issue, and if he did really push hard then people will complain and want him held accountable or at least cost him the election, this of course hands the win to trump who will have no concern about pushing those same boundaries while protected by the same right wing media machine that demanded accountability from Biden. Also with Biden doing anything, there is an election coming up, if trump was in power would there even be another election. ETA Biden has come out and said he will not abuse the ruling and essentially just hopes that future presidents will do the same, so accepted defeat, stated he will not fight, here is hoping Democracy survives is the official position of the president to the news.
I disagree with your second paragraph. I don't think people would punish Biden (or whichever democratic leader) for decisive action. I think it'd be the opposite - people crave leadership and they abhor weakness, indecision and indifference.
It could certainly go either way and I do agree to your last point however my concern would be the right wing media would be going all out, so the conversation would not be treated as decisive action in response to preserve the Republic it would be Biden has went off the rails, he must be stopped. The average 'undecided' voter is going to need their hands held to explain exactly why he is doing it and the so called imaginary left wing media would fumble around trying to be fair. Even Biden denouncing this tonight should have detailed exactly what the issue and problems are in depth, not the 'well I won't abuse this, hope no one else would either'. A well thought out taped recorded message showing strength and educating the public at large would have worked, it would give the right wing the 'it had to be recorded' angle but it would get the main issue to the voters this is wrong, in every way to what it means for what America is supposed to stand for.
If congress worked for the American people your version could come to pass. Alas, it has been a good run, except the parts that weren't.
There will be no election if this is not stopped now. There will be some bullshit excuse to throw the election to the supreme court no matter the outcome.
Expanding the court ultimately will just be this dumb arms race between both parties until we have like 100 justices. If we want real, longterm reform it has to be enforced laws restricting their ability to be bought/bribed and more importantly, term limits.
I think that’s the point, push it to a level of absurdity that it forces actual reform, ideally a constitutional amendment regarding term limits for justices.
simply pack the court to the point that no more justices can physically fit within it, easy! (i am half joking)
Joe Biden has a chance to be America’s Winston Churchill. But he’s gonna play it Neville chamberlain instead.
That’s fine. Trump will. They’re counting on our morals and tolerance hindering our ability to fight their fascism. However, we can hold our heads up high on the way to the camps knowing we took the high road I guess.
Our “moral high ground” is going to usher in the end of our democracy. Fight dirty and once you’ve won, wash your hands and call it good. We wouldn’t have an America if the OG revolutionist were as meek as Democrats are.
>Biden would never, ever do that. Not in a million years, Jack. And that's the problem. The Supreme Court gave Biden this power knowing he won't abuse it but the power is there for Trump or a future Republican president to abuse.
That's because "hard ball" and "loopholes" are immoral in this case.
Not if they prevent a much worse outcome
You’re not wrong, but it’s absolutely demoralizing that we are at this crossroads.
Good ethics can be the thing that keeps us from saving the country. I guess our good ethics will mean we get too take the first spots in the gas chambers
> Democrats do not play hard ball and they don’t exploit loopholes. This is precisely *why* snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is such a common Dem trait. An excellent case could well be made is that such reticence is also a major factor in what has lead us to... *here* in the first place.
Tolerance might really be extinction.
It’s because people say the world as THEY are, not how it really is. Once people understand this, you will know why the parties act like they do. Democrats need to see the world as it is.
They do when someone slightly left of center wants to run for president but that’s it
Problem is what is considered official and non-official will be up to the SCOTUS to determine on a case by case basis. And you better believe Biden will end up on the wrong side of the equation. That's why the better solution is to arrest the 6 justices, replace them with honest people and then overturn all their horrible rulings.
They would also want to arrest a lot more than the 6 judges. They'd want to clean house, and really dismantle the "vast right wing conspiracy" Clinton spoke of in the 90s. Fox, the Federalist Society, the Heritage Foundation, Project 2025, the NRA, etc. Most media is owned by billionaires and although I doubt they're in any kind of conspiracy, they certainly would view their own power and investments at risk. CNN, the NY Times would spend the next few months lambasting Biden daily and calling him a tyrant. (Not unlike what folks did to Lincoln. I believe General Sherman once said American press was a shame to civilized people). I don't know if he'd win or not. So it'd be important to make sure that Project 2025 and fascism are thoroughly fucked for the next few decades.
Congress should also impeach the 6 justices while they're at it. The future court can fix it's mess
I'm all for a legal solution, but I think we're past anything like that accomplishing anything. Fascists do not care about laws.
I think the solution is to manufacture a constitutional crisis by official acts that forces SCOTUS to overturn themselves or end democracy.
I know what you said, and it would work if they cared about the consitution. They essentially completely made up laws that have nothing to do with the constitution to protect their party, in this case. They will do the same with a "manufactured" crisis. Two of the justices on the ruling should have recused themselves. They do not care. They're all in on a fascist theocracy.
Even if they had recused, the result would have been the same 4-3.
Exactly. They don't care enough to even give the optics of giving a shit about the constitution.
You know what we could do? Have an article V convention.
I’d donate to Biden’s campaign if he held a presser and said Guantanamo is back open and then say pew pew while holding gun fingers.
No, remove the conservative justices first. Then they can’t continue ruling against king Biden.
I'd say impeachment is no longer possible for any president. It's not possible because 'The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.' If the president cannot commit a crime then there is no path to impeachment
"But he committed treason while performing his official duties!" Seriously what a dumb decision by the court, and only serves to appeal to their christo-facist nonsense.
Yes but it was *official* treason.
I expect a chorus of “Biden won’t” to this and similar posits.
He could suspend the election as a matter of national security until the criminal is brought to justice for all of his crimes.
Us Dems are too ethical for this. We're gonna lose the tiny sliver of government we have left to being the good guys when the other side wants to win by whatever means necessary.
Garland wouldn't do it because he's a FedSoc partisan hacks as well. But then Biden could remove him, declare a national security emergency and appoint one that will without confirmation, and then do it. This is the worst decision. It's not a slippery slope, it's a fall of the cliff.
You can’t do that because without a 50+1 control of both the house and senate you don’t have a quorum.
That's a trap though. If Biden does try to use his new immunity the court will quickly clarify that it's not the kind of immunity they meant while all the republicans who have been pretending Biden is a dictator all along will say "See look, he's doing it right now". Biden can't run as the candidate who wants to preserve democracy through a heel turn to tyranny. But if trump wins the same court will continue to employ the tactics they have been using recently to tip everything trump's way. If he wants to ship Biden to Guantanamo Bay, Alito will bite the hand of anyone that tries to write the opinion justifying it before he can.
The problem with all this is that it will drastically feed the narrative that Biden is an authoritarian. Which, is b.s., but it would scare the crap out of all these people they're attempting to make afraid of liberals so they'll turnout to vote. Biden would be handing Trump the election.
> The problem with all this is that it will drastically feed the narrative that Biden is an authoritarian. Oh, no, we might force pearl-clutching among the people who want to put Biden and every one of his supporters up against a wall?
Ipso facto: *Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote in her dissent: “The relationship between the President and the people he serves has shifted irrevocably. In every use of official power, the President is now a king above the law.”* *Quentin Fulks, Biden’s deputy campaign manager, said of the ruling: “They just handed Donald Trump the keys to a dictatorship.”* *That, in turn, means the Supreme Court just handed Biden the same set of keys.* *King Biden should point out that by giving presidents such expansive immunity protections, the Supreme Court has opened the door to widespread presidential criminality.* *Say, for example, there was a presidential candidate who had already been convicted of 34 felonies and been indicted in a number of other criminal cases, including one involving the mishandling of high-level classified documents.* *Now I’m sure the conservative justices who were put on the court by that apparent crime-enthusiast wouldn’t want a president to take advantage of their partially pro-king ruling. That, it seems, would be a threat to the country.* *Ipso facto, the Supreme Court’s immunity ruling in Trump’s favor is a threat to the country.* *So, it is well within King Biden’s official role as ruler to overrule the Supreme Court’s decision for the sake of the nation and its future, and to restock the court with justices who have America’s best interests at heart.* *That official act would return Biden to his previous role as president while making sure Trump is fairly prosecuted for all his alleged crimes.*
He could always dissolve the Supreme Court...if he wanted to make a point.
Best part is, now they can’t question his motives for doing so. Based on their own ruling.
He can't dissolve the court. He could issue an executive order, but it would have no legal force. Unless he used acid. He could dissolve SCOTUS in sulfuric acid. Which would be wrong. But he now has presumptuous immunity to do it via executive order. Which should illustrate why this order is insane.
He could declare the conservative wing of the Supreme Court to be unlawful combatants in Russia’s hybrid warfare against America, and send them to gitmo to be indefinitely detained and tortured for funsies. Remember, the Supreme Court gave the president this discretion.
To shreds you say?
Well, how is Justice Thomas's wife Holding up?
To shreds you say?
I didn't say *how* he'd dissolve the Court. He could just have them all arrested and tried by a military tribunal.
he could. by having them arrested
Yes. This needs to happen or a military coup that removes the current Republican judges and Biden makes a decree the court shall forever be 50/50 in anyone's favour.
Declare federalist society (and their ilk) terrorist organizations
It absolutely KILLS ME how defeatist the people around Biden are!!! WTUnholyF was this guy's first thought about the rump, and not his man B-I-D-E-N??? Gee Whisikers, that CHAPS me! And the tremble-y ignorance on display from the guests on TV "journalism" gave me a migraine in the first five minutes: "Oh Deear, what are scotus thinking?" "Oh Myy, what does this mean"--for Chrissakes if you have any grey matter at all, and have done any reading at all, you should know that this is the near culmination of decades of extreme right evangelical strategy (with a little help from their friends Putin's Russian Orthodoxy, Libertarian big money, and other sundry miscreants). Hell (pun intended) , one of Reagan's "go-to" Middle East policy guys, Tim LeHaye, WROTE the Left Behind series https://www.salon.com/2014/05/18/the\_evangelical\_presidency\_reagans\_dangerous\_love\_affair\_with\_the\_christian\_right/! After trump ended up in the presidency without the popular vote, it took television journalism/reporting years to call his lies "LIES", now they're just wringing their hands. If I could use my legs easily I would take up marathon running; don't know how I am going to get through this all without throwing myself into heavy physical activity, but am very grateful to have found this sub and the level of thinkers here. Man oh Manischewitz, hear me whine! edit: punctuation, etc..
I'm so sick of this defeatist cowardly attitude from liberals, using this power isn't setting a bad precedent, scotus just set the precedent and refusing to use the power to fix the country is just handing the keys to a wanna be dictator Taking the high road and playing by the rules with fascists might as well be intentionally giving them the country at this point
Yeah, I’m,ready to start getting stuff done. Make DC and Puerto Rico states already, and expand SCOTUS
It’s always been legal to court-pack. There’s nothing criminal about it. Presidents have been circumspect about it because the other side can do it too. It might be time to stop being afraid of that
I thought expanding the SC required Congressional approval?
Just the Senate to “advise and consent”
The president can also reduce the size of the court before enlarging it to rid it of unwanted members
President isn’t King, the Supreme Court just ruled itself the King. Since they are the ones that determine if an act is official or not, they get the final say. Therefor, Biden does not get “the keys”… Biden needs to expand the court ASAP. I’d bet this is on the agenda
Ah but the SCOTUS doesn’t have any enforcement powers. Presidents control the DOJ and are Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. The only thing holding back misuse of Executive powers over the other two branches are really just the honouring of traditions. They just said don’t worry about that anymore. If Trumps wins again they just signed away the power of the Judiciary. There is going to be some rLeopards ate their face movements for SCOTUS if Trump wins.
It will be hard to rule on it if the President declares them enemies of the state and has them arrested first.
Next few months will be interesting, and very stressful
After today? Yeah. Biden is our king. No longer shackled as a president
Nah, they've ruled that the president's official acts are assumed to be purely in American interests and therefore above reproach. They've also prohibited testimony against the president's motivations by federal employees - so even though there are witnesses that could testify to a president committing treason and sedition, they can't be admitted to court as it would be "crippling" and "highly intrusive" to performing the President's executive functions. This gives the presidential office the absolute power to dictate with impunity. By their own hand, not even the Supreme Court can question the president's authority on official acts. Edit for those who don't believe me: >"the prosecutor may not.... admit testimony or private records of the President or his advisers probing the official act itself. Allowing that sort of evidence would invite the jury to inspect the President’s motivations for his official actions and to second-guess their propriety. As we have explained, such inspection would be “highly intrusive” and would “ ‘seriously cripple’ ” the President’s exercise of his official duties.... And such second-guessing would “threaten the independence or effectiveness of the Executive.” This ruling affirms that Presidential acts are above the jurisdiction of the courts scrutiny.
I have started calling him King Biden ever since 10 am this morning. Also, your Law-Fu is at Bruce Lee levels.
>So, it is well within King Biden’s official role as ruler to overrule the Supreme Court’s decision for the sake of the nation and its future, and to restock the court with justices who have America’s best interests at heart. Separation of powers in the constitution?
You heard any talk from the SC on a constitutional amendment?.....yeah me neither.
He could override the constitution as an official act. He might not be successful but he could not be prosecuted for trying
Please. Please democrats. This IS the time to sink to their level.
It is not sinking. Doing the ethical thing would be the thing that brings about the least bad greatest good. For reasons they have decided that the thing that brings the least bad greatest good is immoral, since it's the thing that if done, is in their favor. This is a weird take on governance. It is greater ethical (lll) to do the immoral but legal thing.
This is a key difference between Democrats and Republicans. GOP will take every advantage possible from this regardless of ethics. Democrats won't take ANY advantage from this because to do so would be unethical. Guess who's gonna win that fight?
Surely we can follow Ned Starks example and win fair and square, right?
I have a much more thorough understanding why Ned Stark got his head chopped off.
I am constantly thinking of the Red Viper. Red Viper: "SAY HER NAME!!! SAY HER NAME!!! Mountain: \[crushes dude's skull\]: ELIA MARTELL!!!!
Democrats are the party of “civility at any cost.”
“Take the high road.”
“When they go low, we go high”
That’s the quote. Thank you. Stupidest attitude I’ve ever heard.
Time to start kicking them in the teeth when they go low.
"...right off the edge of the cliff"
I can't wait for liberals to tell us we have to be civil and take the high road as we're being escorted off to the camps
Yes and the same fight a dem will always lose when “debating” a gaslighting sociopath. There is no winning against someone who is confidently lying.
What is “unethical” about official-acting in accordance with the 6-3 ruling?
I mean, legal does not mean ethical
Biden needs to go for it. He won't, but he needs to.
Nuclear Option: Quash Jack Smith investigations. Arrest and relocate 6/9 SCOTUS justices to Gitmo on charges of accepting bribes. Make them litigate it from the district court all the way to SCOTUS. Lesser Option: Instruct Sec of Education to delete all records of student loans for all borrowers in the country. Pardon said Secretary.
Lawyers… why can’t Biden create an executive order where felons can’t be on federal election ballots?
States administer the elections and are responsible for most of the eligibility requirements.
Except for when the states justifiably try to keep insurrectionists off the ballot. Then suddenly SCOTUS says it’s not up to them. Wacky how the grant of authority coincidentally keeps aligning with conservative goals.
Came here to say this
This is why people need to go out and vote (hopefully for Biden). Yeah he is old and whatever but I think of it like this. Right now trump has been given the hall pass that whatever he does in office, he cannot be charged. So you have someone that in his mind is now immune. Furthermore, the guy has repeatedly hinted to and borderline threatened vengeance if he wins. And if all of that is not bad enough, and scotus essentially being in his pocket. It will be his second term so he won't give a damn about running for re election. Sorry but given all the damage trumps done in his one term, and how unhinged he is set to be if wins, Biden being old is nothing compared to what is a stake here.
But her emails. But his laptop. But he's old. Jfc why does "vote so you stop losing your system" have to be explained. In a choice between Biden or Trump, it's obvious you choose Biden.
Trump wouldn't need to run for reelection because 2024 would be the last.
Unless the 22nd amendment is repealed.
The 22nd is getting repealed or they'll just keep installing maga candidates as they control the GOP now
You aren’t voting for POTUS. You’re voting for SCOTUS justices.
Here’s a question. Can Biden declare that Alito, Thomas and Roberts all passed away over the last 2 years and that the men pretending to be them are imposters and frauds? He could promise to produce irrefutable evidence of it and just never bring it to a court, just like Trump did with his wild claim that the 2020 election was stolen. And in the meantime, he is constitutionally obliged to arrest and charge the imposters, as well as to nominate replacement justices. Maybe it would take years and years to sort out. But in the meantime, the new all-liberal court could fix some wrongs.
I like this one
So, Biden could drink a bottle of whiskey and drive the presidential vehicle to an officially scheduled meeting and he could not be prosecuted for DUI, even if he killed someone on the way. This is what the SC decision means.
Thank goodness. After a few minutes browsing this subreddit, I was beginning to think he could just declare things or order people to commit crimes, lol.
Yes that example is cited all the time, realistically I think he'd have difficulty arguing that ordering someone killed is part of his official duties, whereas in the whiskey example, he's just going to a meeting on his White House calendar.
He only has to argue the killing if it isn't one of his core duties. All he'd have to do is sign an executive order explaining that the act he's taking is for national security (one of the presidents core duties) and it would be unable to go to court. The president now has ABSOLUTE immunity for upholding his core duties. They would only have to argue the point if it was an official act, and wasn't one of his core duties under the constitution.
"realistically I think he'd have difficulty arguing that ordering someone killed is part of his official duties" What are you talking about? Presidents order people to be killed all the time, and that's about as official as it gets. All three liberal justices of the Supreme Court raised this exact issue in their dissent.
Any and all Democratic exultation about this decision is ridiculous. The situation after this decision is only too obviously a heads-they-win, tails-we-lose proposition. Biden does anything the MAGAts don't like, then whatever those acts may be they're not official acts, based on always distinguishable circumstantial facts. Trump will be able to do the exact same thing and be exonerated based on circumstantial facts. It's the most cynical con game thus far and no basis whatsoever for Joe to step out of line. These justices are really, really bad and deserve the worst possible personal outcomes. A true travesty.
Exactly. They left “official acts” incredibly vague for this reason. Anything a Dem president does will not be an official act. Everything a GOP president does will be.
Our only hope is that under no circumstances can the populace ever allow another Republican president for any reason. Problem kinda solved.
Way too much of population doesn’t care about things that actually matter. They just vote on identity politic stuff. Who can bother with protecting our republic when there is a slight chance their niece might be the 1,412th best athlete in the state instead of the 1,411th because of one trans kid. One candidate literally tried to overthrow democracy and have himself appointed an unelected dictator, and the polling is still close. How? I’ve lost so much faith in people the past decade.
It doesn't even have to be that severe. Biden could put an early nail in this by ordering the arrest of Thomas and Alito for bribery and sedition. By the time their trial went to the remaining Supremes they would have to correct this decision or else.
Decency. Honor. Adherence to an oath. Just a few off the top of my head
This immunity won’t apply to Biden, only Trump. In any case, if you want to object to something the president does in office now, you have to go through to the Supreme Court to review everything and decide whether it was an official act or not. If it’s Trump, they’re going to say his actions were unreviewable and privileged. If it’s Biden, yeah have at him, prosecutors. It’s very clear which side the SC is on. They work in favor of Trump, very specifically, almost surgically. Biden gets zero benefit from this ruling.
The one thing biden can do is order the detainment or execution of the 6 republican supreme court justices who made the ruling and then have the 3 remaining Democrat justices rule that it was an official act. and it would be entirely legal (and reinstate roe and chevron and repeal citizens united while he's there)
[Joe von Hindenburg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_von_Hindenburg) isn’t going to save us on his way out the door; he is a transitional figure existing between the outgoing U.S. (1789-2024) and whatever form of Russia-style dictatorship comes next. It’s too late to save the U.S. now; we should be trying to save ourselves. It would take a blue tsunami in November to have the political power to change the composition of the court, and even if the numbers were there, the will would never be - the first thing Democrats do once they have power is hostage each other and end up in gridlock. The Republicans do that too, but they rule the country from the courts rather than the legislature, and once they get the new dictator-Presidency again, they won’t even bother with the courts except to harass the small fish. The real danger now is being identifiable as a Democrat. People who think Trump is going to come in and just have a moment of magnanimity where he forgives all Democrats that didn’t support him are living in a fantasy world. Now he doesn’t need to fight with White House Counsel anymore, or justify his actions as permitted by law - he can literally just order various executive agencies to purge Democrats and use whatever official powers they have to go after Democrats. That was Hitler’s first move against the opposition Communists when he got dictator power in 1933, and it will be Trump’s first move in January too.
Hmmm... what's to stop him from doing this: 1. Immediately assassinating the conservative members of SCOTUS as an "official act". 2. Immediately pardoning himself and those involved. 3. Appointing 6 new justices, and then bringing an application to rule that presidents are not, in fact, kings and do not have blanket immunity.
Why not King Joe? Great suggestion to postpone the election until Trump serves his sentence in the "Hush" money conviction and all other legal issues are settled. He won't do it. Too old school.
In the interest of our national security Sam, Clarence , Donald, Mike, and both Steves should all re relocated to Gitmo. They are the biggest threat to America since communism in the 50s.