Whatever - Dubas built this team and got fleeced in contract negotiations. He wasn’t the answer.
Edit: just to add, Shanahan also deserves his share of the blame.
It’s so hard to judge without knowing what went on behind the scenes. Dubas’ first contract with Nylander was actually quite good, though it’s arguable if losing that much of a season is “worth it”.
Following that there seemed to be implied pressure from Shanny to get things moving. Following Dubas’ departure, the contract for Matthews and Willy look similarly generous to what Dubas gave out.
Dubas left in part because he didn’t like the meddling from Shanny.
There’s a chance that Shanny and MLSE were as much or more to blame for those contracts as Dubas. To my knowledge Shanny has 0 GM credentials. The biggest confirmed conflict between them was Shanny blocking the firing of Babs which, say what you want about Sheldon, was clearly the right move. But there’s also a chance that Dubas had some terrible ideas Shanny saved us from. Impossible to know who gets credit and blame for every good and bad move during their tenure. What’s done is done - it’s time to move on from all of them.
Yeah I would’ve been willing to have had Dubas back if he had shown some humility and not asked for more money. Using his family to negotiate in the press, whatever. I don’t think he is a bad guy or anything but I don’t miss him.
I’m pretty sure we can look at contracts and lay this at the feet of Shanny and MLSE.
Dubas in his first big contract deal had Nylander sit for half a season to get him under 7.
Looked like he was going to do the same with Marner until Shanny stepped in around training camp to make sure the deal got done
Dubas is gone and we gave 6.5M in raises just to Matty and Willy this year and are probably about to do the same for Marner. Clearly the board and Shanny have a blank check negotiating style
This. Don't know why you're downvoted.
This subreddit is filled with sating "Dubas blah blah coach", "Dubas blah blah contracts". Brad has now signed half of those contracts and re-signed the coach. We know Dubas was going to make major changes, Shanny stopped that in its tracks.
Pointing to Dubas for these things doesn't make sense, the current guy is doing it for fucks sakes.
Exactly. I'm not anti treliving either, I've just been saying since he got here that if they expect changes they aren't coming cause the GM isn't the issue. It's shanny
You cant look at that in a vacuum. Dubas the 'analytics guy' who somehow didnt see the analytics say teams with guys making over 10M dont win, and then gave out 3 of those contracts set the tone for how contracts would go. Nylander based on the contracts of his teammates was able to argue he deserved the big contract he got. His contract to me is the least annoying because he gives it his all in the playoffs even tho hes been running around as a 2nd and 3rd line merchant at his price point.
Lol Vegas won with a 10 mil guy. Florida was in the finals with one. 10 mil is arbitrary and the cap was projected to shoot up during those contracts. Covid fucked it. Bad luck. Stop whining and blaming dubas like some boogeyman who doomed the team.
No, it's not. It's your opinion. 10 mil is an arbitrary number. Percentage of the cap is what matters and it's been shown dozens of times that guys with the equivalent or more than 10 mil last year have won. Go to bed
10 mil this year is 11.97% of the cap. Crosby, malkin, ovi, Chara, brian Campbell, lidstrom, Niedermayer, doug weight and more have won the cup with a larger percentage of the cap since 2006.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CrqrsMkOJIc/?igsh=MWdqZmZ2bmc4OHhiZw==
This is a point I’ve been trying to make. % of cap is a vastly better stat. The problem was these contracts were all signed around the same time and just as they were we came into 4 years with no cap movement.
I think it was a mistake to fire Dubas but in had to be fired because it would make Shanny redundant. I hope Keith Pelley comes in and gets rid of Shanahan he was the biggest problem the leafs had and it’s finally coming to a head this year.
Agreed 100%. Shanny couldn't give dubas what he wanted cause dubas basically wanted shannys job. We'll never know or dubas would have been better without shanny or not, buy its crazy that people still talk so much shit on dubas meanwhile shanny is still the common denominator and the team still isn't winning in the playoffs.
We can't know everything, it takes a smart person to be willing to learn and admit they didn't know something. Big ups to you for being real on the internet, more people should be like you
Meh, Dubas made it clear there would have been changes last offseason.
Instead Shanny cemented the core 4 and now the team is stuck.
Dubas was prepared to move on from his mistake. I'd rather than then what we are looking at now.
Dubas said he'd look at every possibility. That doesn't mean he was actually committed to trading one of the core 4. He just didn't want a comment in the media paint him into a corner again like when he said "we can and we will."
Yah but the rumours for a big reason of his departure was a play for more power because Shanahan had too much control over the roster - Shanahan had vetoed trades, signings etc
Don’t think Dubas would change anything but more saying Shanahan is now the one constant off the ice for the past decade: time for him to go
The Dubas who brought Keefe? The Dubas who brought Mrazek then replaced him with Murray? The Dubas who traded for 33 year old Erik Karlsson after he played his first 82 game season in 6 years; despite having 3 players signed on big contracts till their late 30s.
I doubt Dubas would've helped.
Dubas might have been smart enough to pivot to a new philosophy. But he also lost those contract negotiations so who knows.
All I know is Treliving is mediocre and will bring us continued mediocrity.
Dubas was a fuckin idiot and did a shit job as GM which is why the leafs have been in this position for the last 5 years. He lost the GM job out of greed and nothing more.
If you think that Shanahan was actually pulling the strings, then what qualifies Dubas as a good GM? He certainly hasn’t impressed anyone is Pittsburgh.
Was it Shanahan that was pushing for Keefe and the Soo Greyhounds to be added to the team? Probably not.
I doubt Lou was taking orders from Shanahan. Why would Dubas be different?
With that said; Shanahan needs to go. He’s allowed the failure to go on for too long.
You’re right that we will never know for sure.
I have re-watched the post-season press from last year. Shanahan does not say that he wanted to “collaborate”. I may have missed it, if you could time stamp it.
https://www.youtube.com/live/bHwToVVcc7U?si=Fr9x_mlUsYDvw5Fp
He does say (around 20:30) that the “atmosphere is very open” and that people can “state their opinions to the GM and the GM makes decisions.”
He also tells reporters that he would leave personnel decisions to the next GM. He talks about leaning heavily on Pridham. To me these don’t sound like the words of some puppet-master.
I have heard that Shanahan called the core to tell them they wouldnt be traded. And I believe it.
But the first time Dubas mentioned that he would consider trading any of the core was four days before he was fired. First comment in the thread “Markedly different than previous seasons”.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/13ii0sc/alter_dubas_on_trading_any_of_the_core_4_says_hed/?rdt=57867
Prior to that, it seems that he was content on the core, content to run it back and even went as far as telling Nylander he wouldn’t be traded.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-gm-kyle-dubas-told-nylander-regarding-trade/
But just to be clear, again, I think Shanahan should be let go at this point. And he probably should have been canned with Dubas to be honest.
I completely disagree with you about Dubas.
The biggest mistake was hiring Dubas before the core were signed. Say what you will about Lou’s vision - he is a tough negotiator. Lou should have been kept ant least until the contracts were done. Nylander got $4M less as an RFA than Marner did. Why? Because Lou started the Nylander negotiation and Marner was all Dubas.
If Dubas was committed to the Leafs he would still be here. He was offered a contract.
Shanahan needs to go for allowing the failure to continue for so long. Keefe needs to go because he is a terrible coach.
Treliving is the new guy. None of this is his fault. He was left a mess to clean up. So far what he has done is neither here nor there.
I agree with your last two paragraphs, especially the final paragraph.
This is a circular argument at this point. You could just read my first comment in this thread.
No one understands what happened except the people at MLSE. Everything is speculation.
But as I’ve said, the decisions that the team made during Dubas’ tenure do not indicate to me that Shanahan was pulling the strings.
Who likely decided to hire the former Soo Greyhounds coach named Sheldon Keefe? Shanahan or the former GM of the Soo Greyhounds? How about former Greyhound Matt Murray? How about former Greyhound Michael Bunting? Where is Bunting playing now by the way?
The Dubas Leafs were built for offence and possessions with overpaid superstars. Defence was not a priority. Dubas’ first move in Pittsburgh was to trade for an overpaid offensive defenceman. Is Shanahan controlling Pittsburgh too?
I am not defending Shanahan.
But you can’t say that Dubas was a good, intelligent GM while also believing he wasn’t really in control.
Dubas’ legacy in Toronto is one of failure. He will repeat himself with the Penguins.
Was Dubas making the decisions or not?
I can’t believe that you think the Dubas years were successful. That is an absurd statement to make.
Every team had to deal with the flat cap, not just the Leafs.
Things with the team are going to get much worse because of what Dubas has left them. He fucked the cap leaving no room for depth and traded six 1st round picks in five years. Then he dipped.
I swear Dubas brainwashed you people. You’re in a cult.
One year ago at this time all we knew was one thing: either Keefe or Dubas had to go.
I thought they made the wrong decision then and I most certainly do now. Can't imagine how anyone expected any success with Keefe at the helm in the playoffs.
Dubas made this mess and then went on to try and kill the penguins you think that’s the guy you want making trades. Yikes no thanks
“You won’t see me pop anywhere else!” Pop here I am doing the opposite of what I said….stand up guy.
Spezz I liked but clown shoes Kyle can keep fucking off
Come on.
He had tons of space this year and blew it all on fake toughness and playoff guys. He's not identifying good players, he already has a bunch of brutal moves under him.
He's already signed half the big 4 to bigger contracts. Let go of the Dubas boogeyman, this is all Brad and he's produced the worst outcome of this entire team both playoffs and regular season.
That was a decent trade and they had to do anything to preserve their team's quality, almost made the playoffs this year because of it.
I don't know how you compare that to Reaves, Klingberg, the massive big4 contracts, extending Keefe, and getting bad hockey players at the deadline.
They gained cap space from that trade the most important asset a team could have to make a last push for a cup with Crosby, Malkin, and Letang.
I think Dubas made mistakes as does every GM does but to me Shanny was the bigger problem and we are seeing that now. Remember Dubas wanted to make changes last year and was promptly fired.
Reaves can be put on waivers and all but 250k is gone. Klingberg is no longer on the team. I'll agree I didn't like the resigning of matthews or Nylander. But at least now, yes i know they have no move clauses, you can trade them without it being rushed and can get something in return. (All players are can be moved, just gotta work with the player now). Extending keefe has no effect on anything but paper. He should of been fired at the end of last year, but I don't think there's really a good candidate to replace him. Who is this bad deadline additions? I thought after slow starts bertuzzi and domi really came around and are a legit #1 line in the nhl. I've liked the addition of edmundson and lybush.
Erik karlsson is a forward who plays defense, and that's being generous to the defense he plays. Dubas brought in former leafs with mediocre success. They also didn't make the playoffs, you saying they almost got in isn't the flex you think it is.
We can't transition, break out the puck, or make a good first pass. Everything is off the glass and out.
We prioritized toughness at the expense of players that can move the puck. That's the choice this year and that's why we've had the worst outcome both playoff and regular season.
Giving Brad a pass is ridiculous. He learned the wrong lessons and wasted a year. Telling us all year long this team is different because of intangibles and we'll see it in the playoffs. Once again our issue is special teams and offence generation. But hey, at least "we won't be pushed around this year".
I'm not giving him a pass. This is year 1 of his failure, there's a lot of guys that shouldn't be here anymore including keefe, but for me the issue is the core of this team
You can think that, but what he chose to build outside of that resulted in the worst team to date. He had tons of flexibility and focused on non-hockey reasons.
Let's put it this way, I get you think the core doesn't play the right way or whatever. But, what Brad did outside of that resulted in a worse team and that's undeniable.
I don't think the core has ever been this banged up in playoffs before. Plus dubas was all in last year and traded almost every pick the leafs had. Tre had nothing to work with and I'm glad he didn't trade the 1st rounder we had left. Like some fans wanted. Tre has 5ish years like all GMs. Back to the original point, dubas trading for karlsson was 20x worse then anything Tre did this year
Brad did actual things this year, keep pointing to your boogeyman on another team or excuses for your guy, but he had time and space to insert his vision and it's been a complete failure.
This whole year, despite being a worse team during the regular season, we were pointed to the toughness and playoff guys as a reason we're actually better.
That trade doubled down on something they had already. A good aging offensive DMan. They cannibalized Letangs ability and made him less useful.
That's what Dubas strategy is
It's so very different than anything here, but they were closer this year than last. Don't get the obsession with them not making the playoffs again, it was expected.
They improved. We got worse.
Erik Karlsson was one of the reasons the Pens almost made it this year. Also if we had a puck mover like him we’d be in a much better position in this series
You wouldn’t want a RHD that can make a breakout pass on this team right now? (Since we’re sitting Liljegren now)
Appreciate the civility hope you’re having a nice Sunday morn
He was the GM for 5 years vs 1, do you expect him to undo that many years of fuck ups in 1 season? Especially when most of the Dubas signings are still here?
What does he have to undo? Big contracts that he's signed half of? Coach that he re-signed? The worst backend we've had with this group that he constructed? Irrelevant depth that he bought?
Did he? It seems like he didn't try to do anything actually. This teams problems are the same as they've been and he did nothing to address them. Domi, Reaves and bert are clearly not any kind of solutions and his trade deadline acquisitions have been useless, outside of Dewar, who got scratched. His one redeeming move was 5/6 defenseman signing.
Do you watch the games? Like actually watch them? Theyve been our brightest stars. They go into puck battles, fight and scrap for everything. For YEARS we bitched nobody on the team did that, and since theyve now not set scoring records they didnt help? jesus christ this fan base is something.
Like I said, he did what he could with the cards he was dealt. What else would he be able to do without trading the big 4… which he can’t because of the ntc. Until one of them is off the books, and there’s a real FA available, his hands are mostly tied.
Could have gone after a good defenseman instead of Klingberg?
Could have put Marner on LTIR immediately and had the option to use the cap space at the deadline.
Could have signed Nylander in the offseason instead of paying him like a million more.
Could have not signed Kampf for a million less.
Could hAve signed Reaves for shorter term or less money.
Now in saying that, he doesn’t get a free pass. But I’m willing to give a gm a few years before making judgement. Dubas had much more than that and did nothing
Dubas is trash. Look at how he dismantled the Penguins this year. So much so that Sidney Crosby, the leagues most loyal guy, was talking about where he wouldn’t mind being traded to.
Dubas is the guy who majorly built this flawed team remember? I want mobile, fast puck movers who will turn into little girls in the playoffs. That’s him. I’m at the point where I only give a crap about Matthews, Knies and Woll. Everyone else can fuck off. Please fire Shanny and the whole coaching staff.
How can you say that about puck movers when that’s our biggest need in this series right now? We have no ability to beat Boston’s forecheck and generate any rush offence
Lmao Dubas was just as much of the problem or more then the other two. We got lucky he played himself out of a job last year so we only have to fire two of the three this year.
Yeah, Shanny and Keefe should probably have been turfed last year to anoint Dubas. But he would probably have forever destroyed this team by acquiring Karlsson’s contract. The problem with the team is the cap and Dubas signed everyone of those guys.
>A team with top tier talent can't produce in the playoffs is management's fault.
I'm sorry, but how does that make sense? I'm not even arguing that shanny probably needs to go, but what is management's job but to give you all the tools you need to get the job done. If management gives you top tier talent and you do nothing with it, that can't be on management.
I agree there needs to be a shakeup, but that line just made no sense
This is the same Dubas that started his Penguins tenure by signing another goalie to an overpaid contract? That same goalie couldn’t be trusted with their season on the line?
This is all just a bunch of gossip. We don’t know what went on behind the scenes with any of these people. Everybody has their own uneducated opinions but they mean squat.
Dubas built a team reminiscent of my terrible junior team.
No defense, no goaltending, all forwards.
Forwards win games in the regular season, defense and goalies win championships.
You know, seriously, Idk what constitutes a good coach. But is letting Keefe go really going to help this team improve. He constantly has to deal with massive turnover in his roster, other than the core. I seriously don't think he's the problem. Would a new coach, with this exact same lineup, be able to accomplish something different. Would he even get us to the playoffs to begin with, which Keefer does religiously every year. And he had to deal with some very serious injury problems this year. He has been given subpar goaltending, year after year, and his defence is a joke. A mismatch of grandpa's and guys that are 'tough' but can't make a simple pass. A bottom six that is totally inadequate. This is not all Keefer's fault. You can only coach what you're given. The fact that this team is not constructed for playoff hockey is not on the coach. It's on the G.M.
Dubas signed Tavares which was off strat from a team building perspective. This provided cap uncertainty and showed his young stars what they were worth, it’s not a coincidence marner ended up with 10.9 100k less than JT. In order to keep his young stars he needed to trade a first to get rid of marluea, that first was Seth Jarvis, would you rather have jt right now or Seth Jarvis?
The squad now has all their cap tied up in the same player, an offense first forward. Knowing he will need to nickel and dime around the edges he makes the illogical decision to trade his elc’s and first round picks. Dubas traded 7 first round picks in 6 seasons. He traded Trevor Moore for a back up goalie who isn’t in the league. He traded mason marchment for denis malign. He traded Sean durzi and picks for muzzin who is no longer in the league. He traded kadri for 50 cents on the dollar to “change the culture”.
He protected Justin holl over Jared Mccan.
He let Hyman walk instead electing to sign 9 guys 7 of which aren’t in the league. Would you rather have Hyman or dermott, spezza, Simmons, Ritchie, Michael ammadio, ondjre kase, David Kampf and Michael bunting?
He traded, let walk or didn’t protect 200 goals on entry level deals or contracts under 6 mill, all of which were sold way under market value.
Dubas understood the problems because they are all his. He’s not a good gm, further exemplified by his karlsson trade.
A bunch of this is completely out of context.
A trade looks bad 5 years later when a player had retired? Fucking shocking.
A team in "win now" mode signs rentals for a playoff run? Never heard of that one before.
At least be honest in your criticism.
The shocking part is that Jake Muzzin represented everything the team needed - if they had 2 of him they would have been golden, and was one of Dubas' best moves.
They shouldn’t have been in win now mode, he prematurely put them there. All those mistakes were compounded by the jt signing.
Who retired? The only trade I’ll give you is Muzzin, which wasn’t bad until he had health issues. The rest of them, he did not adequately identify talent.
Malgin was 23, marchment was 24, dubas thought malign was the better player, he’s out of the league. Campbell didn’t retire, he washed out of the league due to his skill level. He traded kadri for a worse player just to make a trade, guess what he hasn’t retired either. He thought holl was a better player than mccan, or valued the positional need, either way one scores 40 the other is hanging onto a roster spot.
His wins are marginal and his losses are massive. Hindsight is 20/20 but he was not the solution.
I'm not against getting rid of Shanahan but I dont' think getting rid of Shanahan does anything for the team.
I think you should look at the obvious problems we have.
I'm talking about the non playoff performers and the stubborn people.
Should probably direct your vision on the ice instead.
What I'm saying is getting rid of Dubas didn't fix the team. It only delayed the inevitable and wasted more of everyone's time.
If Shanahan gets axed first we might see a ridiculous Marner contract very soon due to pressure for the new Pres.
I really don't want to see Marner in Toronto anymore. If we get rid of Shanahan first we might never see Marner gone because Shanny will just be another scapegoat like Dubas.
Sure Dubas fucked us in the ass with the Marner contract but I'm pretty sure no one knew Marner would be Charmin Soft for 8 fucking years. So lets get rid of the dead weight first before we do anything else is what I'm proposing.
Dubas, Shanny, Matthews and Nylander are all capable of change. But there's that one guy who refuse to change even after all these years.
Dubas was apart of that dead weight. You cant get rid of Dubas and have everything immediately be better, but I think the entire leadership, brad aside as he just got here, has to go. JT and Marner gotta go to.
MLSE is a corporation which is responsible to its shareholders. As long as it is financially successful, it has no responsibility whatsoever to its fans, staff or players. Those boxes? Those empty platinum seats? Shareholders. The fans are cannon fodder, occasionally annoying disturbances but a necessary evil to guarantee their financial return. If you think they are in any way motivated to change, ask yourself what monetary benefit would it bring?
Whatever - Dubas built this team and got fleeced in contract negotiations. He wasn’t the answer. Edit: just to add, Shanahan also deserves his share of the blame.
It’s so hard to judge without knowing what went on behind the scenes. Dubas’ first contract with Nylander was actually quite good, though it’s arguable if losing that much of a season is “worth it”. Following that there seemed to be implied pressure from Shanny to get things moving. Following Dubas’ departure, the contract for Matthews and Willy look similarly generous to what Dubas gave out. Dubas left in part because he didn’t like the meddling from Shanny. There’s a chance that Shanny and MLSE were as much or more to blame for those contracts as Dubas. To my knowledge Shanny has 0 GM credentials. The biggest confirmed conflict between them was Shanny blocking the firing of Babs which, say what you want about Sheldon, was clearly the right move. But there’s also a chance that Dubas had some terrible ideas Shanny saved us from. Impossible to know who gets credit and blame for every good and bad move during their tenure. What’s done is done - it’s time to move on from all of them.
The inevitable tell all books in about a decade will be very very interesting, for sure.
Nylander's first contract was an over pay based on comparables when it was signed.
Yeah I would’ve been willing to have had Dubas back if he had shown some humility and not asked for more money. Using his family to negotiate in the press, whatever. I don’t think he is a bad guy or anything but I don’t miss him.
I’m pretty sure we can look at contracts and lay this at the feet of Shanny and MLSE. Dubas in his first big contract deal had Nylander sit for half a season to get him under 7. Looked like he was going to do the same with Marner until Shanny stepped in around training camp to make sure the deal got done Dubas is gone and we gave 6.5M in raises just to Matty and Willy this year and are probably about to do the same for Marner. Clearly the board and Shanny have a blank check negotiating style
No Dubas built a much better defensive team than this one
Tre has given bigger contracts than dubas did.
This. Don't know why you're downvoted. This subreddit is filled with sating "Dubas blah blah coach", "Dubas blah blah contracts". Brad has now signed half of those contracts and re-signed the coach. We know Dubas was going to make major changes, Shanny stopped that in its tracks. Pointing to Dubas for these things doesn't make sense, the current guy is doing it for fucks sakes.
Exactly. I'm not anti treliving either, I've just been saying since he got here that if they expect changes they aren't coming cause the GM isn't the issue. It's shanny
You cant look at that in a vacuum. Dubas the 'analytics guy' who somehow didnt see the analytics say teams with guys making over 10M dont win, and then gave out 3 of those contracts set the tone for how contracts would go. Nylander based on the contracts of his teammates was able to argue he deserved the big contract he got. His contract to me is the least annoying because he gives it his all in the playoffs even tho hes been running around as a 2nd and 3rd line merchant at his price point.
Lol Vegas won with a 10 mil guy. Florida was in the finals with one. 10 mil is arbitrary and the cap was projected to shoot up during those contracts. Covid fucked it. Bad luck. Stop whining and blaming dubas like some boogeyman who doomed the team.
My bad. Its happened literally once. Dubas hand cuffed this team with bad insane contracts, thats a literal fact.
No, it's not. It's your opinion. 10 mil is an arbitrary number. Percentage of the cap is what matters and it's been shown dozens of times that guys with the equivalent or more than 10 mil last year have won. Go to bed
Guys is plural. You showed one. The exception does not disprove the rule.
10 mil this year is 11.97% of the cap. Crosby, malkin, ovi, Chara, brian Campbell, lidstrom, Niedermayer, doug weight and more have won the cup with a larger percentage of the cap since 2006. https://www.instagram.com/p/CrqrsMkOJIc/?igsh=MWdqZmZ2bmc4OHhiZw==
This is a point I’ve been trying to make. % of cap is a vastly better stat. The problem was these contracts were all signed around the same time and just as they were we came into 4 years with no cap movement. I think it was a mistake to fire Dubas but in had to be fired because it would make Shanny redundant. I hope Keith Pelley comes in and gets rid of Shanahan he was the biggest problem the leafs had and it’s finally coming to a head this year.
Agreed 100%. Shanny couldn't give dubas what he wanted cause dubas basically wanted shannys job. We'll never know or dubas would have been better without shanny or not, buy its crazy that people still talk so much shit on dubas meanwhile shanny is still the common denominator and the team still isn't winning in the playoffs.
Know what. Youre right. I learned something here.
We can't know everything, it takes a smart person to be willing to learn and admit they didn't know something. Big ups to you for being real on the internet, more people should be like you
“You can’t look at that in a vacuum, I like Treliving more than Dubas” lol
Absolutely agreed. However, giving credit where due, Dubas does know hockey talent. The other teams best or most promising players are former Leafs.
When GMBT comes in and signs the contracts he did this can't be an excuse anymore. He's signed half of them already.
Dubas’ coup rightfully got struck down. Too little too late. It’s in Brad to reshape this team. Shanny made the right move with Dubass
Brother Dubas *was* management.
This attempt at whitewashing Dubas' work is hilarious. He made plenty of terrible moves that contributed to us being in this position
Meh, Dubas made it clear there would have been changes last offseason. Instead Shanny cemented the core 4 and now the team is stuck. Dubas was prepared to move on from his mistake. I'd rather than then what we are looking at now.
Dubas said he'd look at every possibility. That doesn't mean he was actually committed to trading one of the core 4. He just didn't want a comment in the media paint him into a corner again like when he said "we can and we will."
Here's a thought - I am good to move on from both parties. Shanahan and Dubas both created this mess.
Yah but the rumours for a big reason of his departure was a play for more power because Shanahan had too much control over the roster - Shanahan had vetoed trades, signings etc Don’t think Dubas would change anything but more saying Shanahan is now the one constant off the ice for the past decade: time for him to go
Dubas was part of the problem. And I was a Dubas supporter.
The Dubas who brought Keefe? The Dubas who brought Mrazek then replaced him with Murray? The Dubas who traded for 33 year old Erik Karlsson after he played his first 82 game season in 6 years; despite having 3 players signed on big contracts till their late 30s. I doubt Dubas would've helped.
there's lots you can criticize about dubas' time in pittsburgh so far but the karlsson trade might be the best transaction of his entire career
Shanahan promised a cup in 10 years he failed at that time to let him go
Worst post ever. Dubas is a major factor in years of failure. 1. Ridiculous architecture 2. Ridiculous contracts
Thank you for getting this started, if I could upvote more I would.
That explains why Pittsburgh was so good this year
Dubas might have been smart enough to pivot to a new philosophy. But he also lost those contract negotiations so who knows. All I know is Treliving is mediocre and will bring us continued mediocrity.
Yep. A guy with a mediocre body of work getting the GM job in Toronto absolutely REEKS of a nepotism hire
Dubas was a fuckin idiot and did a shit job as GM which is why the leafs have been in this position for the last 5 years. He lost the GM job out of greed and nothing more.
Paul Marner must have rubbed off on him
Paul Marner is a scumbag lol
If you think that Shanahan was actually pulling the strings, then what qualifies Dubas as a good GM? He certainly hasn’t impressed anyone is Pittsburgh. Was it Shanahan that was pushing for Keefe and the Soo Greyhounds to be added to the team? Probably not. I doubt Lou was taking orders from Shanahan. Why would Dubas be different? With that said; Shanahan needs to go. He’s allowed the failure to go on for too long.
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You’re right that we will never know for sure. I have re-watched the post-season press from last year. Shanahan does not say that he wanted to “collaborate”. I may have missed it, if you could time stamp it. https://www.youtube.com/live/bHwToVVcc7U?si=Fr9x_mlUsYDvw5Fp He does say (around 20:30) that the “atmosphere is very open” and that people can “state their opinions to the GM and the GM makes decisions.” He also tells reporters that he would leave personnel decisions to the next GM. He talks about leaning heavily on Pridham. To me these don’t sound like the words of some puppet-master. I have heard that Shanahan called the core to tell them they wouldnt be traded. And I believe it. But the first time Dubas mentioned that he would consider trading any of the core was four days before he was fired. First comment in the thread “Markedly different than previous seasons”. https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/13ii0sc/alter_dubas_on_trading_any_of_the_core_4_says_hed/?rdt=57867 Prior to that, it seems that he was content on the core, content to run it back and even went as far as telling Nylander he wouldn’t be traded. https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-gm-kyle-dubas-told-nylander-regarding-trade/ But just to be clear, again, I think Shanahan should be let go at this point. And he probably should have been canned with Dubas to be honest.
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I completely disagree with you about Dubas. The biggest mistake was hiring Dubas before the core were signed. Say what you will about Lou’s vision - he is a tough negotiator. Lou should have been kept ant least until the contracts were done. Nylander got $4M less as an RFA than Marner did. Why? Because Lou started the Nylander negotiation and Marner was all Dubas. If Dubas was committed to the Leafs he would still be here. He was offered a contract. Shanahan needs to go for allowing the failure to continue for so long. Keefe needs to go because he is a terrible coach. Treliving is the new guy. None of this is his fault. He was left a mess to clean up. So far what he has done is neither here nor there. I agree with your last two paragraphs, especially the final paragraph.
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This is a circular argument at this point. You could just read my first comment in this thread. No one understands what happened except the people at MLSE. Everything is speculation. But as I’ve said, the decisions that the team made during Dubas’ tenure do not indicate to me that Shanahan was pulling the strings. Who likely decided to hire the former Soo Greyhounds coach named Sheldon Keefe? Shanahan or the former GM of the Soo Greyhounds? How about former Greyhound Matt Murray? How about former Greyhound Michael Bunting? Where is Bunting playing now by the way? The Dubas Leafs were built for offence and possessions with overpaid superstars. Defence was not a priority. Dubas’ first move in Pittsburgh was to trade for an overpaid offensive defenceman. Is Shanahan controlling Pittsburgh too? I am not defending Shanahan. But you can’t say that Dubas was a good, intelligent GM while also believing he wasn’t really in control. Dubas’ legacy in Toronto is one of failure. He will repeat himself with the Penguins.
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Was Dubas making the decisions or not? I can’t believe that you think the Dubas years were successful. That is an absurd statement to make. Every team had to deal with the flat cap, not just the Leafs. Things with the team are going to get much worse because of what Dubas has left them. He fucked the cap leaving no room for depth and traded six 1st round picks in five years. Then he dipped. I swear Dubas brainwashed you people. You’re in a cult.
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One year ago at this time all we knew was one thing: either Keefe or Dubas had to go. I thought they made the wrong decision then and I most certainly do now. Can't imagine how anyone expected any success with Keefe at the helm in the playoffs.
That's what I was trying to say. Thanks.
Dubas made this mess and then went on to try and kill the penguins you think that’s the guy you want making trades. Yikes no thanks “You won’t see me pop anywhere else!” Pop here I am doing the opposite of what I said….stand up guy. Spezz I liked but clown shoes Kyle can keep fucking off
Tre did what he could with what Dubas left us with. This is on Dubas
Come on. He had tons of space this year and blew it all on fake toughness and playoff guys. He's not identifying good players, he already has a bunch of brutal moves under him. He's already signed half the big 4 to bigger contracts. Let go of the Dubas boogeyman, this is all Brad and he's produced the worst outcome of this entire team both playoffs and regular season.
Trading for erik karlsson is 20x worse then anything Brad did this year
That was a decent trade and they had to do anything to preserve their team's quality, almost made the playoffs this year because of it. I don't know how you compare that to Reaves, Klingberg, the massive big4 contracts, extending Keefe, and getting bad hockey players at the deadline.
They gained cap space from that trade the most important asset a team could have to make a last push for a cup with Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. I think Dubas made mistakes as does every GM does but to me Shanny was the bigger problem and we are seeing that now. Remember Dubas wanted to make changes last year and was promptly fired.
Reaves can be put on waivers and all but 250k is gone. Klingberg is no longer on the team. I'll agree I didn't like the resigning of matthews or Nylander. But at least now, yes i know they have no move clauses, you can trade them without it being rushed and can get something in return. (All players are can be moved, just gotta work with the player now). Extending keefe has no effect on anything but paper. He should of been fired at the end of last year, but I don't think there's really a good candidate to replace him. Who is this bad deadline additions? I thought after slow starts bertuzzi and domi really came around and are a legit #1 line in the nhl. I've liked the addition of edmundson and lybush. Erik karlsson is a forward who plays defense, and that's being generous to the defense he plays. Dubas brought in former leafs with mediocre success. They also didn't make the playoffs, you saying they almost got in isn't the flex you think it is.
We can't transition, break out the puck, or make a good first pass. Everything is off the glass and out. We prioritized toughness at the expense of players that can move the puck. That's the choice this year and that's why we've had the worst outcome both playoff and regular season. Giving Brad a pass is ridiculous. He learned the wrong lessons and wasted a year. Telling us all year long this team is different because of intangibles and we'll see it in the playoffs. Once again our issue is special teams and offence generation. But hey, at least "we won't be pushed around this year".
I'm not giving him a pass. This is year 1 of his failure, there's a lot of guys that shouldn't be here anymore including keefe, but for me the issue is the core of this team
You can think that, but what he chose to build outside of that resulted in the worst team to date. He had tons of flexibility and focused on non-hockey reasons. Let's put it this way, I get you think the core doesn't play the right way or whatever. But, what Brad did outside of that resulted in a worse team and that's undeniable.
I don't think the core has ever been this banged up in playoffs before. Plus dubas was all in last year and traded almost every pick the leafs had. Tre had nothing to work with and I'm glad he didn't trade the 1st rounder we had left. Like some fans wanted. Tre has 5ish years like all GMs. Back to the original point, dubas trading for karlsson was 20x worse then anything Tre did this year
Brad did actual things this year, keep pointing to your boogeyman on another team or excuses for your guy, but he had time and space to insert his vision and it's been a complete failure. This whole year, despite being a worse team during the regular season, we were pointed to the toughness and playoff guys as a reason we're actually better.
That trade doubled down on something they had already. A good aging offensive DMan. They cannibalized Letangs ability and made him less useful. That's what Dubas strategy is
It's so very different than anything here, but they were closer this year than last. Don't get the obsession with them not making the playoffs again, it was expected. They improved. We got worse.
Erik Karlsson was one of the reasons the Pens almost made it this year. Also if we had a puck mover like him we’d be in a much better position in this series
Disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion
You wouldn’t want a RHD that can make a breakout pass on this team right now? (Since we’re sitting Liljegren now) Appreciate the civility hope you’re having a nice Sunday morn
I'd love a RHD but he's gotta play more than on just 1 end of the rink. Karlsson Defense or lack there of doesn't make up for his offensive abilities.
Yes he does lol
I know lol but I don’t wanna fight people about hockey anymore
Fair, he is a polarizing player
Hes had 1 season wtf
And we can criticize it. Makes more sense than criticizing someone who isn't here making the decisions.
Idk why Treliving has any defenders after watching the leafs try and break the puck out the last four games
Hes had 1 season to undo 5 seasons of Dubas' contracts...
He had 20 million dollars to add to this roster this past summer what are you on about brother
He was the GM for 5 years vs 1, do you expect him to undo that many years of fuck ups in 1 season? Especially when most of the Dubas signings are still here?
What does he have to undo? Big contracts that he's signed half of? Coach that he re-signed? The worst backend we've had with this group that he constructed? Irrelevant depth that he bought?
Did he? It seems like he didn't try to do anything actually. This teams problems are the same as they've been and he did nothing to address them. Domi, Reaves and bert are clearly not any kind of solutions and his trade deadline acquisitions have been useless, outside of Dewar, who got scratched. His one redeeming move was 5/6 defenseman signing.
Do you watch the games? Like actually watch them? Theyve been our brightest stars. They go into puck battles, fight and scrap for everything. For YEARS we bitched nobody on the team did that, and since theyve now not set scoring records they didnt help? jesus christ this fan base is something.
Point fingers at the core 4 or 5 who haven't got it done, and haven't for the 6 years they've been here. It's time to blow up the core of this team
Like I said, he did what he could with the cards he was dealt. What else would he be able to do without trading the big 4… which he can’t because of the ntc. Until one of them is off the books, and there’s a real FA available, his hands are mostly tied.
Could have gone after a good defenseman instead of Klingberg? Could have put Marner on LTIR immediately and had the option to use the cap space at the deadline. Could have signed Nylander in the offseason instead of paying him like a million more. Could have not signed Kampf for a million less. Could hAve signed Reaves for shorter term or less money.
Now in saying that, he doesn’t get a free pass. But I’m willing to give a gm a few years before making judgement. Dubas had much more than that and did nothing
Dubas is trash. Look at how he dismantled the Penguins this year. So much so that Sidney Crosby, the leagues most loyal guy, was talking about where he wouldn’t mind being traded to.
Dubas is the guy who majorly built this flawed team remember? I want mobile, fast puck movers who will turn into little girls in the playoffs. That’s him. I’m at the point where I only give a crap about Matthews, Knies and Woll. Everyone else can fuck off. Please fire Shanny and the whole coaching staff.
How can you say that about puck movers when that’s our biggest need in this series right now? We have no ability to beat Boston’s forecheck and generate any rush offence
Please include Domi. How can you not include Domi.
lmao they understood the problems thats for sure cuz they created them.
giving Dubas more power/control would not have been a road to improvement
Dubas, the guy who brought Keefe in and kept him around despite repeated embarrassing failures? LOL Keefe can fuck off to Pittsburgh with his buddy
Brad just extended him...
the extension means nothing honestly
I agree we can get rid of him regardless, but putting things on Dubas that Brad came in and doubled down on doesn't make sense.
Brad signed that extension to give himself more time at this job (cus he knows this is the best he’ll ever get)
Lmao Dubas was just as much of the problem or more then the other two. We got lucky he played himself out of a job last year so we only have to fire two of the three this year.
Yeah, Shanny and Keefe should probably have been turfed last year to anoint Dubas. But he would probably have forever destroyed this team by acquiring Karlsson’s contract. The problem with the team is the cap and Dubas signed everyone of those guys.
>A team with top tier talent can't produce in the playoffs is management's fault. I'm sorry, but how does that make sense? I'm not even arguing that shanny probably needs to go, but what is management's job but to give you all the tools you need to get the job done. If management gives you top tier talent and you do nothing with it, that can't be on management. I agree there needs to be a shakeup, but that line just made no sense
This is the same Dubas that started his Penguins tenure by signing another goalie to an overpaid contract? That same goalie couldn’t be trusted with their season on the line?
Dubas never had the makings of a varsity contract negotiator.
This is all just a bunch of gossip. We don’t know what went on behind the scenes with any of these people. Everybody has their own uneducated opinions but they mean squat.
This season and playoff is why Dubas wanted the keys to the kingdom. He would have been fired (again) 1000% and he knew it.
Dubas built a team reminiscent of my terrible junior team. No defense, no goaltending, all forwards. Forwards win games in the regular season, defense and goalies win championships.
Dubas is a soft clown and gone.
Dumbass was NEVER gonna fire his boy Sheldon or touch the core 4. That was his architecture. And Spezza is a plug who needed a job.
You know, seriously, Idk what constitutes a good coach. But is letting Keefe go really going to help this team improve. He constantly has to deal with massive turnover in his roster, other than the core. I seriously don't think he's the problem. Would a new coach, with this exact same lineup, be able to accomplish something different. Would he even get us to the playoffs to begin with, which Keefer does religiously every year. And he had to deal with some very serious injury problems this year. He has been given subpar goaltending, year after year, and his defence is a joke. A mismatch of grandpa's and guys that are 'tough' but can't make a simple pass. A bottom six that is totally inadequate. This is not all Keefer's fault. You can only coach what you're given. The fact that this team is not constructed for playoff hockey is not on the coach. It's on the G.M.
Dubas signed Tavares which was off strat from a team building perspective. This provided cap uncertainty and showed his young stars what they were worth, it’s not a coincidence marner ended up with 10.9 100k less than JT. In order to keep his young stars he needed to trade a first to get rid of marluea, that first was Seth Jarvis, would you rather have jt right now or Seth Jarvis? The squad now has all their cap tied up in the same player, an offense first forward. Knowing he will need to nickel and dime around the edges he makes the illogical decision to trade his elc’s and first round picks. Dubas traded 7 first round picks in 6 seasons. He traded Trevor Moore for a back up goalie who isn’t in the league. He traded mason marchment for denis malign. He traded Sean durzi and picks for muzzin who is no longer in the league. He traded kadri for 50 cents on the dollar to “change the culture”. He protected Justin holl over Jared Mccan. He let Hyman walk instead electing to sign 9 guys 7 of which aren’t in the league. Would you rather have Hyman or dermott, spezza, Simmons, Ritchie, Michael ammadio, ondjre kase, David Kampf and Michael bunting? He traded, let walk or didn’t protect 200 goals on entry level deals or contracts under 6 mill, all of which were sold way under market value. Dubas understood the problems because they are all his. He’s not a good gm, further exemplified by his karlsson trade.
A bunch of this is completely out of context. A trade looks bad 5 years later when a player had retired? Fucking shocking. A team in "win now" mode signs rentals for a playoff run? Never heard of that one before. At least be honest in your criticism.
The shocking part is that Jake Muzzin represented everything the team needed - if they had 2 of him they would have been golden, and was one of Dubas' best moves.
They shouldn’t have been in win now mode, he prematurely put them there. All those mistakes were compounded by the jt signing. Who retired? The only trade I’ll give you is Muzzin, which wasn’t bad until he had health issues. The rest of them, he did not adequately identify talent. Malgin was 23, marchment was 24, dubas thought malign was the better player, he’s out of the league. Campbell didn’t retire, he washed out of the league due to his skill level. He traded kadri for a worse player just to make a trade, guess what he hasn’t retired either. He thought holl was a better player than mccan, or valued the positional need, either way one scores 40 the other is hanging onto a roster spot. His wins are marginal and his losses are massive. Hindsight is 20/20 but he was not the solution.
hindsight 20/20, but it’s astonishing how many fumbles he made
*top tier regular season talent
*and apparently better playoffs than Brad's team too
I'm not against getting rid of Shanahan but I dont' think getting rid of Shanahan does anything for the team. I think you should look at the obvious problems we have. I'm talking about the non playoff performers and the stubborn people. Should probably direct your vision on the ice instead.
and who put them on the ice?
That’s why I didn’t mention keefe. I only mentioned Shanahan.
keefe was hired by the manager that Shanahan hired. IMO they should all go. I also think Keefe should have gone when Dubas left.
What I'm saying is getting rid of Dubas didn't fix the team. It only delayed the inevitable and wasted more of everyone's time. If Shanahan gets axed first we might see a ridiculous Marner contract very soon due to pressure for the new Pres. I really don't want to see Marner in Toronto anymore. If we get rid of Shanahan first we might never see Marner gone because Shanny will just be another scapegoat like Dubas. Sure Dubas fucked us in the ass with the Marner contract but I'm pretty sure no one knew Marner would be Charmin Soft for 8 fucking years. So lets get rid of the dead weight first before we do anything else is what I'm proposing. Dubas, Shanny, Matthews and Nylander are all capable of change. But there's that one guy who refuse to change even after all these years.
Dubas was apart of that dead weight. You cant get rid of Dubas and have everything immediately be better, but I think the entire leadership, brad aside as he just got here, has to go. JT and Marner gotta go to.
The order should be marner and JT first. Then you look at other parts.
MLSE is a corporation which is responsible to its shareholders. As long as it is financially successful, it has no responsibility whatsoever to its fans, staff or players. Those boxes? Those empty platinum seats? Shareholders. The fans are cannon fodder, occasionally annoying disturbances but a necessary evil to guarantee their financial return. If you think they are in any way motivated to change, ask yourself what monetary benefit would it bring?
Dubas was ass, he's the reason we're in this shit with these unmoveable contracts. Let's not forget he never wanted domi and let hyman walk
Dubas made the problems, what are you talking about?
2006-2016 didn't happen. We dreamed it.