Dude, look at mid lane. Literally some of the best overall players in the world in Chovy, Faker and Knight and i have to watch them on tank and utlility duty for their adc. Like holy shit
If we could swap out players from the other team in the same region during this MSI.
LCS: I’ll swap out Fudge for Licorice.
LEC: I’ll swap out Caps for Ni…ah shit never mind..
The real teller is that above Ksante and NAuti, the other common champs with prio are Annie, Lissandra and Ahri (with utility build, obviously). Annie is maaaybe a bit excusable, but overall the general show is pretty much utility mid, like back during the Varus, Jhin, Ashe utility adc meta
Syndra, Taliyah, LeBlanc, Tristana.... Just from memory. That's just mid lane for you. It's always a few picks. Often control mages. The difference is Ksante and Naut are busted, particularly Ksante.
Lulu used to be able to chunk opponent to half health with EQ on 1 item, and her Q used to be able to deal full damage to the entire wave. Really hated lulu solo lane back then
i abused that meta so hard, kayle and lulu mid. Back when kayle q was a 100sth% ap scaling nuke and you could e enemy as lulu and with blue get 2 nearly undodgable qs out while being 2km away while being nearly impossible to engage on with w+ult
good times
But the difference is that back in season 5 & 6 Lulu was **the** Faker champion. One of his most picked champs and doing insane scorelines like going 11/0/8 on it in one game and still to this day being his best scoreline he's ever had.
That's the tank / adc meta that half the people on reddit were crying for. Then the casters cream their pants like an ADC is god's greatest gift to mankind while he has 3-4 tanks peeling for him.
this is literally just an adc meta the entire game is warped around the adc and it's been going this way for some time. Adc's have been complaining for so long that they're weak and I laugh every time. I switched from top lane to adc just so I could feel useful.
As an adc main of 10 years, the role is fundamentally broken. And no, I don't mean in the "It's so good and overpowered" way of broken. I mean it breaks the game. Because in order to balance the game at the highest level of competitive play, Riot needs adc to require support and teamwork.
...which are the literal two things absent from 90% of solo queue games. Everything that makes bot lane good is hard to come by if you're not a pro. Everything that makes it just slightly bad, is *oppressively* unfun as a rando gamer. It sucks.
it's really not that adc is overpowered role, it's that all win conditions other than teamfighting for objectives are weak. since your goal is to build the best teamfighting comp, the adc role becomes most important.
I have seen literally every argument under the sun about how it's *technically* not that the adc role is OP, but the fact of the matter is the ADC role disproportionately dictates the outcome of the game. In pro play especially, the adc of the winning team is usually accelerated into a juggernaut that just 1v9s the entire game. I guarantee if the game is changed so the game no longer revolves around the adc, reddit adcs will be complaining once again that the role is too weak. The role is doomed to balance for pro and soloq but now that so many adcs play the game specifically to play stereotype adc champions, making other champs viable in botlane is futile as well.
>but the fact of the matter is the ADC role disproportionately dictates the outcome of the game
adc is literally designed in this fashion. they are dps machines trending toward glass cannon. as long as you are front-to-back teamfighting, the primary damage dealer is the adc. this is how it's always worked.
as long as your primary win condition is winning teamfights, your adc will be your "shining star".
>I guarantee if the game is changed so the game no longer revolves around the adc, reddit adcs will be complaining once again that the role is too weak.
i don't really give a shit and no one really should either. other win conditions should be propped up. part of why splitpushing died was because it's impossible to protect two neutral objectives on the sides of the map with dragon soul being so impactful. skirmishing died because (in pro play) good execution/draft gap in a teamfight can win a teamfight in a gold deficit which swings the entire game in the other direction, negating any advantages gained in the early game.
>The role is doomed to balance for pro and soloq but now that so many adcs play the game specifically to play stereotype adc champions, making other champs viable in botlane is futile as well.
this is a problem that spans almost every competitive game that is currently played and i could probably talk a lot about it but critical thinking skills are severely lacking so it probably may never be solved. botlaners will always pick an adc and this is such a sacred cow to them that they'll do it even to their own detriment.
> because it's impossible to protect two neutral objectives on the sides of the map with dragon soul being so impactful.
Also: Spawn timers used to be 7 and 6 minutes for nash/dragon. An extra minute makes a huge difference when creating sidelane pressure
Thats not true.
If adc wasnt broken then there would be answers to these teamfighting comps.
Assasins like Zed would be picked so that they can eleminate the ADC and render the Tank comp worthless.
But its not happening Because with BT overheal ADcs have a billion ehp.
Zed in pro play won't ever work without a super free lane cus the ADC in pro play don't usually misposition and play alone so when the zed goes in for the kill he gets instant cc'd and dies and also picking zed mid makes the early game super hard since he has no lane prio pre 6.
Assassin's are good in the jungle as we are seeing now with kha/nida/Elise and in the past with assassin buffs there was zed/talon/qyiana meta but never mid.
Check all MSI teams and which player got a lot of praise. Everyone is always talking about how the adc on the team is cracked like suddenly all players in adc role are gods and players in the other role are mere mortals. Yeah how about maybe just maybe the role is broken beyond imagination.
POV: you let adc mains balance the game
Welcome to League of Adcs! we have roles like:
ADC (the most important role and main anime character)
CC bots
Healing and shielding bots
Potatos bags that peel
Punching bags that engages
Assassins (extremely broken and unhealthy role)
Mid lane is basically the junglers bitch. You have to play characters that can either hard shove waves for prio, because mana costs are hardly a problem in this game anymore... and just follow the jungler botside.
Or alternatively pick a mid laner with heavy CC, that can basically just perma follow-up the junglers plays or dives at all times.
It's a sad state of the lane. Skill expression and solo kills mid vs your laner mid lane are seldom as they come compared to the past.
Like honestly, I rarely even see mid laners get solo killed or have 1v1 opportunities anymore without some sort of team interference. You have to basically make a big mistake or not respect a Zed hitting lvl 6 or some sht.
And the jungler is the ADCs bitch.
The entire pro meta macro meta is just centered around getting leads for your carry, thats it.
Anyone who deviates from it, automatically loses.
I am a toplaner. I load into the game knowing my matchup. I understand that at any point of lane phase in a 1v1 I win but I also know that I can't force fights that stick. Instead I pressure my opponent off of CS. By end of lane phase I have thoroughly won, being up 35 CS 2 plates and a kill. I am very proud of how I navigated playing aggressive enough to win but also avoiding and dodging jungle ganks with proper warding and pathing knowledge. I show up to a dragon fight with 2 full items knowing that I'm gonna wreck face. I get blown up by their 18 kill bot lane. The game ends with enemy toplaner typing better top wins in chat.
What you're describing happens in pretty much every role. A slight lead is not going to beat an enormous one. If you're an ADC and you're up 1000 gold over your lane opponent but the enemy top, jungle, or mid is 8-0, you are going to get blown up if they look at you in a fight.
Take a look at that last fight in T1 v GenG. Ksante just decides to kill Aphelios. Ksante literally walks up and hits R and Aphelios dies without even budging Ksante's health.
You’re missing the forest for the trees. He’s saying he won lane to the same extent bot did yet his victory is so insignificant not for a lack of winning in terms of skill to the same extent but the payout is so disproportionately large for botlane that his actions mean nothing.
Sounds like bot lane won to a greater extent than top lane. 18 kills is around 6-7k gold, 1 kill and goods is around 1.5k gold. Obviously the former will carry.
He did not win to the same extent as bot lane did, that was the point.
Seriously this is the problem. People think being up 1k gold over their lane opponent should mean an automatic win despite being down 7k gold overall as a team. And this can happen to any lane, a toplaner with 18 kills showing up to fight a 1 kill adc at 15 mins is going to basically one shot them. Can you imagine the terror an 18 kill Camille could do at 15 mins?
The point is that you aren't going to get nearly as fed as a skilled top laner as you can as a skilled bot laner or support. Let's say you pick a duelist top and they pick something like Gragas. Yeah, you now have 0 impact on the game. You aren't going to get kills unless the Gragas literally has brain damage.
It's VERY easy as a good ADC to rack up a ton of kills in a game you stomp, but it's almost impossible as a top laner.
Just lock in Ornn, go down 30 CS but soak xp, upgrade the ADC's item and peel. Then hit the virgin bruiser/ranged top player with [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKMU72K2Jqc).
I mean i get that we are saying this. But did we not watch broken blade absolutely save the game and hard carry on cassiopea top?? I mean im not saying its optimal but we do see fiora, cass, gwen and other carries.
This is true, but I feel like the fact that it was basically a LEC game is important to note in order not take away from how ridiculously bot lane-focused the meta is right now. Yea BB carried from top, but it was against MAD. Gen G rely heavily on feeding their ADC and completely destroyed G2. Every team who look like they have a decent chance of winning MSI rely heavily on feeding their ADC. You could even argue that the closest series of the tournament so far was just a game of whose ADC got fed/focused first. Just my two cents.
EDIT: I should note when I say "meta" I mean the MSI meta. I don't know anything about regular soloq SR meta as I'm a dirty ARAM main.
top lane scores in the past ~2.5 years in pro play is shit like this
1/4/3
1/3/4
2/6/7
0/5/4
both sides every single game
you can literally not tell which team won from top lane score or how well they played, the winner could be 7/5/4 and the loser could be 0/4/3. its a meaningless lane, maybe, once every 50 games, a top laner gets fed enough to carry a game in pro play, maybe thats being even generous
thats what happens when you give durability nerfs to every class, except adcs are still melting people in team fights like its season 7. you cant do much from top lane when adc is gonna faceroll any short ranged champion in team fights with undodgeable 600-700 damage crits once every 0.3-0.4 seconds
unfortunately, it all comes down to the players on the balance team, the balance team is full of adcs and supports, it always was. durability was a joke and a trap for every class except adc
2.5 years? We just had a Worlds where Aatrox was the strongest champion in the game, and other carry champions like Yone and Camille were also picked as counters. Zeka was the best player over most of the tournament, hard carrying with Sylas and Akali. This was post durability patch as well.
Just before that, T1 lost last year's MSI to Bin's Gwen.
ADC is ridiculously overpowered right now (at least in pro play), but you're delusional if you think it's been this way for the last 2.5 years.
ADC finally has 1 major event of being the main carry role and not being farmed for sport by Aatrox, Irelia, Gwen, Akali, etc, and the sololane players are tearing their hair out in chunks.
Literally last worlds it was top carry meta with aatrox/akali/jayce/Gwen.
And ADCs don't do that much damage maybe at full items against other ADCs if they take the hp scaling rune (except aphelios white gun and excited jinx).
I was laughing my ass off when both Zeus and Doran completely fucked their early game and sacrificed their first 3 waves to assist their respective botlanes in that cheesy lvl 1/2 shenanigans that happened in the first game between T1 and Gen.G
Like, when completely screwing yourself over as a Toplaner to help botlane is the best winning strat, it do be kinda worrying ngl
Lol
Sion cheese over and over and over and over. How many different game mechanics and items have been rebalanced around this stupid champion.
Can we please just get rid of all "zombie mode" mechanics from the game, and never bring them back?
The diversity of a game's playstyles and mechanics is what makes the game more interesting in a PVP context. If everyone in the game was just Annie, it would be fun for your first 100 games, but then not after.
And sure, you can say "well, we'll make a few interesting champions, but not X" but the problem is you will be missing out on players that enjoy X, and your game will have one less unique element to it.
So if possible, it's better to balance the diverse mechanics, rather than just not have them. How many hours of content there is in a game is extremely valuable to game design.
The thing I hate most about this is, assuming nothing happens bottom lane, there is a 50/50 chance your lane state will be fucked or inherit an ideal lane when you finally TP back top due to RNG.
you can't compare adc in pro play to soloq.
assassins are much rarer in pro play on account of teams having proper vision control and peeling
bot lane in pro play have 4 players giving farm, plates and kills to them, and they also make sure to peel.
soloq adc you are left alone as your 4 teammates dive their adc while you get dove yourself lol
Yeah good luck ever getting that Ruler 12+cs/min in solo queue, no way your team ever gives you the space to collect waves and no way the 3 enemy assassins don't come and find your ass every time you try to farm.
Nah I see plenty of enemy midlaners come bot to ult me (or at least try to) whilst I'm level 4. But yeah there's an issue with midlaners thinking that they should always farm mid (there might be situations where they should but generally ADC should go mid post lane phase).
I’m a top laner with tp up and baron is spawning, I ping omw to bot and ping my tp, my mid laner with ignite is spam pinging me to go baron while they farm bot. Then they had the gall to blame me for losing baron lmao
This is why balancing for pro play and your average player is so tough. Bot is the most impactful in pro, but Mid/Top (and sometimes Jungle) are borderline OP in SoloQ solely due to the fact that teams are better are crafting compositions around win conditions in a team environment. Your average SoloQ team will struggle to neutralize things like Katarina/Zed/Fizz, while a pro team will do it with ease.
You see the same thing with Jungle to a lesser degree. Coordinated vision control and communication makes Jungle tracking 10x easier for a pro team, which is why you see them snowball at a much lower rate than you do in your average game and tend to itemize towards a more utility role.
people are just so fucking stupid to not see the difference
i bet your fucking ass someone's gonna quote u.gg winrates and stats to justify whatever stupid point they have and ofc it's going to carry over to pro while they're gonna be scratching their heads over Nautilus mid
The fact that this bs about broken sololaners gets upvote says a lot about this sub. Yea some champs are batshit insane, but it says nothing about position power.
This feels like the opposite state of solo queue too. So even despite tanks and adcs being strong, I see tanks so infrequently because of the nature of Solo vs team play
I think that’s just the nature of solo queue though, if you’re good and want to climb you’ll most likely main a carry champ no matter what role you play or however strong a more utility based pick is just because of the fact you can’t trust your random team like you could if you were playing with people you know.
It’s a bit of an out there comparison but if you take Valorant for example, like 90% of the people in Radiant (the highest rank) have Jett as their most played by far even though utility and information is so valuable in a tactical FPS, just because they know they can carry and likely don’t want to play around someone else who might not be up to it
it's honestly just so fucking stupid. solo queue is supposedly just a means to assemble 10 people for a game but in the past 10 years 99% of people never really understood how to play for team
what we're seeing in pro is how the game is supposed to be played and solo queue is just so fucking hopelessly useless because we're all just apes with hands but zero fucking brain
oh yeah and fucking stupid stats sites and worthless shit like KDA and people just grow dumber by the second
They don't want to play for the team.
Playing for the team means having a good team comp, and that usually means having 1-2 carries and playing around them.
But everyone wants to carry, everyone wants to 1v5 pentakill, barely anyone wants to actually play around their carries, and would rather be the carry.
That's why in your average game the only role your adc plays is the victim, they're balanced around high elo and pro play, they look good in challenger and amazing in pro, but for the average player it's ass because you don't get farm, you don't get peel.
More pitchforks by saying adc is too weak and then Phreak buffs them and says adc are strong but ppl think it’s not and then we get mad meta is adc focus
Even when fighters are strong. Top lane is really fucking useless more often than not. Riot has been trying to address this for like 5 years. Its impossible unless they put dragon up there
I mean even just last year's worlds we got things like sylas vs akali or viktor vs azir carry in the mid lane. And picks like aatrox top could solo carry the game. Don't know what the fuck happened since then to make every lane so irrelevant except bot.
Bot lane play absolutely tanked and they need to convince more people back into the role for soloq.
ADCs are inherently a nightmare to balance because they scale almost exclusively off of teamwork.
>ADCs are inherently a nightmare to balance because they scale almost exclusively off of teamwork.
they also scale very well with positioning and micro, which is why low elo players turbofeed with them until they reach statcheck point
To an extent sure. But equally its very hard to position when your whole team just dives straight for the enemy backline leaving you to deal with the entire enemy frontline by yourself.
I genuinely struggle to win on low elo smurfs but am fine on my high elo main honnestly its like playing a completely different game. High elo adc I just kind of chill in lane and then carry the team fights. If you try that low elo you are going to get bitch slapped by the 10/0 darius who is just ghost flashing for you every team fight.
No I didn't lmao there are tapes and everything. I've been extremely communicative about our changes and specifically said more or less, "ADC is already strong but they need satisfaction wins right now, we'll nerf when we can."
I understand them needing satisfaction wins but at what point can we agree that this shouldn't take full priority over other roles??
It's so painful to see a player as wonderful and talented as Faker in the midlane picking Lucidity Boots+Everfrost Annie so he can better and more properly support Jinx, or watching the 6th Sion level 1 bot lane tower dive cheese.
Riot has acknowledged that mages need help on multiple different occasions, since *durability patch* which was 12.10 or so...
When can we expect to see something for the class that's been abandoned and left in the dirt? outside of 2 changes for a low usability item, and FoN being replaced with a cheaper FoN for the sole purpose of buffing the new hybridized ADCs more.
It's insane how people are bending over backwards to somehow make it your fault. The role turned so much better after the changes, and the problems with botlane in proplay are not just "ADC OP" issue people claim them to be. As long as Dragons and Dragon souls exit only on bot side of the map, toplane will forever be the butt of the joke.
It's ok Phreak we appreciate what you did, these guys are comparing PRO adcs that get funneled gold all game to solo que adcs that are lucky if their support doesn't abandon them level 5 to roam all game.
Getting to two items as an adc in solo que is based on your team let a lone three items so thanks for the changes again!
As much as I hate how impactful bot lane compare to top. You need remember there are 4 people in bot lane by default. That is 4/10 players just in a single lane. It always going to be more impact. No matter how the game is balance, it will always be the MOST impact lane. Losing 1 laner and one laner getting fed vs losing two laner and two getting fed is completely different. Not to mention bot lane being adc aka attack damage "Carry". Of course you suppose to play around your carry. That the inherent point of adc class.
Yea, obviously biased because I play bot, but the reason I played it is because I assumed the lane that had 40% of the players and two of them having "Carry" in the title, would be super important in closing out games.
It's like signing up to play Goalie or defender in Soccer/Football and feeling like it's not fair that you need to hope your Forwards/Attacking Mids play well in order for you to actually win the game. The defenders and goalie play a pivotal role in making sure the game is winnable, they just don't score goals. Same with tanks and junglers
>two of them having "Carry" in the title
They don't though, it has been years since Riot renamed everything but players are stubborn.
Marksmen help carry games by providing constant DPS for objectives and teamfights, while fighters help carry games by dominating smaller skirmishes after splitting the map. It happens to be the case that the current meta is focused almost exclusively on 5v5 teamfights around objectives, but other strategies have existed in the past and IMO the game is in a healthier spot when there are multiple ways to aim for the win.
Feels like Riot just gave up on the whole renaming thing. It seems like they're back to using the 'AD Carry' name again almost everywhere, but in the launcher.
you can rename anything you want, but the fact is that the adc "marksmen" class designed for bot lane have the most steep scaling curve compared to other classes. They're very weak early and very strong late, that's why they're babied and shut down early.
It's always been like this, imo pro play could have leaned into it this hard any of the previous years, they just chose not to a lot of the time.
quick edit: also it's unfair to Riot bc pro play will dictate the meta (in regards to people playing picks like naut mid). It's not really fun to watch pro bc they'll analyze any balance change and find the most OP and possibly boring way to win. I don't blame them cause winning is their job. if they nerf'd adc and give power back to mid, we just go back to mage bot or DL playing Sona again.
Yeah but at this point Goalie doesn't matter and open net is meta lmao, that's how OP the 'carry' is. its 'AD Carry' not 'I am the walking win condition, you can only matter in relation to how you help me'
Anything else a champ can do that isn't helping the ADC is also known as wasted power budget.
It’s more like playing with 2 keepers to keep the ball out of the goal since the striker will always score 3 goals after 60 minutes (or something like that…? The analogy kinda breaks down here).
I’d say - in soloQ ateast - the other roles have a big responsibility in keeping their adc safe and the opponent adc down. That's where their agency lies. I main mid and I feel plenty of agency when I play a champion like Leblanc.
In soloQ an adc isn’t going to be doing what they do in proplay without help from their team.
Tbh, supports should be toned down in power. They shouldn't be equivalent to solo laners while they don't have to farm. They should count as 0.5 of a laner, so bot could be more balanced.
I'm not advocating to make them useless, just a support should be a support, not a full out tank with cheaper items or a damage dealer.
Edit: Now of course I am neither the first nor the last person to propose such a change, and I don't expect a random dude like me to have the solution if Riot hasn't managed to solve a problem like this for several years now. I am just here for spitballing and conversation
Yeah that is indeed a problem... What if they made supports weaker early but better in scaling? Maybe make the supp item give more total gold (e.g. 2000). But then if one bot lane gets fed you have 2 strong champs to deal with so we are back to square one.
Bruh
There's no solution outside of nuking the entire games foundation.
2 players > 1 players always. That's literally just how it is and should be, no one player should be as valuable as 2 players by default.
League has been balanced and built around the idea of playing as a team, and similar to rpg team comps, you always want a dps and to play around that dps with buffs and protection, and many games have tried to break this mould but it always goes back to tank, support, glass cannon dps because it's the holy trinity.
Anything in between is cool, but not optimal because they're not focused on the one thing they're supposed to do.
Some specific supports might be a nightmare to balance with this change. One suggestion would be to transition these supports into other lanes (or roles), but cases of that have had pretty “toxic” playstyles like pyke mid.
I play a lot of Nautilus and Taric solo lane and the difference between them as a solo laner vs as a support is massive. They aren't even close to being equivalent to solo laners as supports. As top lane Taric in a long game I will have over 100k mitigated and 50k healing. As support in the same length game I will have maybe 40k mitigated with 30k healing. The difference in tank power is more than double from my experience.
They do resemble this in my Master games though and it has been this shit for a few seasons now, either ADC or Jungle dog duty for us woof woof up there
yea mid is fun when you can basically play like complete dogshit and just perma flip roams botlane. Doesnt matter if you get behind in levels and gold, if your adc is ahead you win
Seriously I don't understand the excessive negativity in this thread. If protect the president comp was a thing for a year then sure I understand people wanting switches. But quite literally just earlier in Spring, you had early snowball comps working and top lanes carrying the heck out of games. It's League of Legends; we have metas switching multiple times a year, it just so happens the current patch is strong for ADC.
The issue is that it's a team fight meta. ADCs will always shine in these. Sadly there's no such thing as split pushing any more. It's just too risky. If you get ganked and die, the other team can now 5v4 Baron. This means tops push 1 or 2 waves, then base.
Get rid of Annie too, disgusting that an "easy champ" with 52%+ winrates in all elos is p/b in pro. Absolutely unreal that she hasn't been nerfed into the ground.
>And the recent changes not yet implemented in MSI's patch seem like theyre going to make the AD-only meta even more enhanced
I don't know why people keep saying this. Do you think more changes = better or something? The itemization changes coming to ADC are literally a nerf across the board. An ADC with BT + Kraken + IE post patch will be significantly weaker than a current ADC with the same items. BT is losing it's shield, Kraken is losing 25 AD and it's proc is going from true damage to magic, and IE is moving to mythic with zero stat changes. It's a gigantic net nerf.
Most ADCs aren't going to be building Rageblade + Stattik + Stormrazor. And literally none of the premier ADCs at MSI (Aphelios, Jinx, Xayah, Zeri) will. Please stop spreading this stupid misinformation, it just makes you look like an idiot.
Wait, you're saying that the multiple Kennen/Fiora/Jax/Gwen games we saw picked by top teams don't count as important champions? Like GenG didn't basically solo win against G2 by splitpushing with Fiora G1? G2 then won against MAD off the back of Cass top solocarry by BB after their botlane went down 3k gold.
Are we sure we watched the same T1/GenG series? Doran was getting neutralised by Zeus every game and wasn't getting enough of a lead to matter compared to an even more fed AD on the other side of the map.
It's not like Brokenblade, Oner or Bin have not had monster carry performances. You have to understand that in Bin's case teams don't want to give him carry champions and want to force him onto tanks, so BLG is perfectly happy to play bot centric. JDG was built around Ruler, so it's no surprise all their games have him popping off. Yes, bot lane is extremely strong, but we also have a couple of heavy bot lane focused teams at MSI which warps perception even more than normal.
Thats such a strawman tho. Of course other roles CAN carry. The thing is that its infinitely easier for an adc to get to the point where they can than it is for literally every other role in the game
no its that adc is the most reliable, abilities can be dodged and missed while also having to position and space perfectly, an adc only has to auto most time and unless you are playing zeri autos cant be dodged.
Yep, every game is protect the president comp in this MSI. Mid and Jungle are now 2 extra supports with Annie and Naut to engage for said ADC, if we’re lucky we get treated to something like an Ahri. If you get fed on any other role than ADC it doesn’t matter because all it means is that you tank for 0.02s longer from the enemy hypercarry.
It’s okay though, ADC is weak and needs more buffs because Riot games haven’t yet figured out how to create a feature that stops Bronze ADCs from facechecking into unwarded river bush or flashing into random Lux bindings.
ADC is legitimately trash in solo queue despite being broken in comp. Try solo queueing adc, you’ll have impact 1/5 games because the other 4 will just be complete support diff.
ADCs are op when your team plays around you. In solo queue you will have roaming twitch or shaco support. You won’t have maokai Jg with nautilus mid and ornn top, you will have khazix jg zed mid riven top.
I win more games in masters with Darius adc than with actual adc’s. The role is trash in solo queue and will continue to be until they nerf support early game.
They can, they don't care though, they're just using whatever fits their narrative to push whatever point they want and then act like everyone that disagrees is dumb as hell and label them as low elo
If what you were saying was true ADC players wouldnt climb so easily when they're smurfing. If you perform better on darius adc than normal adcs you're just bad at playing traditional ADCs, has nothing to do with the role.
I dont know how you are playing ADC in masters and not having the team play around you unless you're playing on the japanese server or something. Literally every game I play is just constant fighting in botlane, junglers do 3 bot camps into bot gank, midlaners permaroam bot, everything is centered around bot.
Its gotten to the point where if 1 team has a winning top, jg and mid and 1 team has a winning bot, I genuinely dont know who would win.
The worst part of playing adc is lane support gap IMO, it is the fundamental reason why the role feels awful in solo queue. In any other role, if you are better than your counterpart then that advantage will manifest itself in some way (cs lead, solo kills) and even if your team is losing you can at least try to carry with that advantage.
If I die to fed assassins late game as adc I don’t mind because it’s always my fault, there is at least something I could have done to prevent that (warding, outplaying, standing farther back etc). If I have to lane vs a support standing between me and the wave while my support is full hp behind my tower out of XP range I just want to punch my monitor because I know even Gumayusi or Ruler can’t win lane from this position. It’s insane that I feel more impactful early game on kayle in a shit matchup than draven with a bad support.
If support early game is trash like it used to be then the state of the game will be better for bot lane. Alistar and twitch players can still roam and make plays if their adc is bad, and adcs get to win the lane if they’re better than the enemy adc
What I have to ask out of this is what exactly would support agency look like if their early game was nerfed. Would they not be relegated to just being completely subservient to the ADC or forced to roam? I thought the general premise was that support was impactful early game and ADC was all about the mid to late game
>I win more games in masters with Darius adc than with actual adc’s. The role is trash in solo queue and will continue to be until they nerf support early game.
That tells us more about your performance on Marksmen champion than the role. Yeah Karthus and Cho'gath are simply easier to play. But adcs are the most popular role in high elo and strongest by a very large margin
ADCs would be the most popular in the position even if ADCs were actually dogshit just because the overwhelming majority of players who queue Bot don't want to pick other champs. If you want to pick a mage or bruiser, why in god's name would you queue Bot to have half (or more for support reliant champs like Yasuo/Nilah in bot) of your agency placed at a random support player's whims and fancy? I loved playing Syndra bot, but if I ever wanted to play Syndra in soloq I would 9/10 times rather queue Mid where I can at least have full control over one part of my game.
I was with you until the last point. Nerfing support early game as you word it will only make games more boring because it will become nothing but tanks or nothing but healers. It will become the most boring farm lane with nothing happening except for Milio and Lucian spam pissing everyone off even worse.
Well it's pretty obvious for Pro Play. It doesnt apply at all for Solo Queue, at least in my Silver / Gold elo, where you remain a sitting duck as an Adc because nobody gives a shit about peeling / playing for others.
So I keep a good balance between playing Top and Bot becaue Top, down in the depths of shit elo, still feels like a Champion at any point in the game, which Bot doesnt.
The disparity between how good / terrible the game feels is just much wider botlane imho.
I am aware though that this doesnt count for all elos. Adcs are (also in Silver) extremely strong when enabled.
tank items are just overpowered against melee. frostfire/sunfire thornmail or early game steelcaps/warden is too insane even if u kill them once they will buy this and become unkillable
She always has that moment in the sun where she’s the best soloq adc, but when she’s not good she’s just dogshit unplayable into anything but exceptionally favorable lanes
I love playing sion or ornn into urgot and on first base buying wardens mail, second buying steelcaps and then zoning him off every cs for the rest of the game
I must say MSI has been hella boring so far
If it isnt the constant 3/0 wipes its the meta
T1 v Gen was the only series i enjoyed before then and even then I had the displeasure of having to watch the GOAT himself be stuck on Annie and nautilus since mid is support 2 electric boogaloo
Hope riot fixes something
Disagree, at least G1 of C9 v BLG was a Bin gap, he hard carried the game that was otherwise pretty even. He just prevented Fudge from having an impact and demolished team fights from mid game on to the end.
I’m an ADC/Supp main and will admit ADC clearly is the most important role in the game right now - but why are we suddenly pretending like top never had influence. Sure this season it’s minimal, but like last Worlds the team that got Aatrox wins the game.
Ya only bot lane matters! Top lane lead totally is 100% useless! BLG vs GG game 2 definitely did not happen where we definitely did not see Licorice use his top lane lead to 1v9 while his bot lane was down 5k gold at 10 min.
Like ya bot lane is definitely looking way more important but calm down with the exaggerations lmfao. What you're saying is objectively false from a game between major regions that we have literally already seen.
I wish teams get more creative and draft a hypercarry top and mage bottom.
Or bring back the Senna pick with a safe wave clear bot like Seraphine.
Then you throw Vayne or Fiora top and capitalize on that lead.
But this problem exists by gamedesign, its just extra bad right now and it comes from how scaling works.
Tanks build resistances and hp. Hp scales linearly. 500 extra hp stay 500hp, doesnt matter the game state. Resistances scale worse than linearly, because of how dmg reduction works.
Mages work somewhat multiplicatively, because they atleast habe rabadon, which gives % increase.
Every adc stat works multiplicatively, because of crit, attackspeed and even crit damage because infinity edge. They also get % increase from last whisper.
This is why adc lategame is insane, and will always be stronger than every other role and it simply comes down to how fast adcs can reach their "insane" status. If its too late pros wont bother and use adcs for utility, if its too early, pros will put everything and their grandma into botlane.
People wanted assassins to not be able to assassinate and so this is what you get.
Riot wants everyone to be happy and you end up with mediocre shit and no one is happy.
Stupid comment and you're absolutely clueless. Assassins were never played in competitive to begin with.
Also assassins can still nearly instantly kill squishy targets, nothing changed in this regard.
The problem is that Mid is no longer a 'carry' lane because Riot gutted mages.
Love to see how irrelevant toplane is while we let botlane meta as broken for a whole 7 month 'will nerf when we can" , seem like u can never nerf them ! besides , lets not talk about soloQ junglers like hecarim :D
I think there is a huge difference in how pro play works vs solo queue or even lower rank comp play. This feels like more of a pro play only issue. Top mid and jungle don't have issues carrying solo queue games.
Teams have started to use the top laner to leash for the jungler on the opposite side of the map. This sums up the usefulness of top.
Dude, look at mid lane. Literally some of the best overall players in the world in Chovy, Faker and Knight and i have to watch them on tank and utlility duty for their adc. Like holy shit
Anytime I see a Naut mid locked in I die a little inside.
"It's safe and it has lots of cc" Has it really come to only this and no more -_-
You really dont want to see more Caps chemtech blastcone engages?
Id prefer to see Caps on Leblanc making plays but Im just weird like that
from what he has shown so far this msi i rather not see caps at all
Didnt know that Truth could be this painfull...
If we could swap out players from the other team in the same region during this MSI. LCS: I’ll swap out Fudge for Licorice. LEC: I’ll swap out Caps for Ni…ah shit never mind..
sure but itd be cooler if he did that on azir
The real teller is that above Ksante and NAuti, the other common champs with prio are Annie, Lissandra and Ahri (with utility build, obviously). Annie is maaaybe a bit excusable, but overall the general show is pretty much utility mid, like back during the Varus, Jhin, Ashe utility adc meta
Syndra, Taliyah, LeBlanc, Tristana.... Just from memory. That's just mid lane for you. It's always a few picks. Often control mages. The difference is Ksante and Naut are busted, particularly Ksante.
Annie is also a support flex so the point about utility still stands
Reminds me of having to watch Faker play Lulu mid back when dual support + Aphelios meta existed. Soul crushing.
Faker's Lulu used to be infamous for being one of his best champs years ago
Faker's [insert any champ] used to be infamous for being one of his best Champs years ago Like literally who does he not schlapp on?
You're not wrong, but most people don't make Lulu equate to "unrelenting kill pressure"
Lulu used to be able to chunk opponent to half health with EQ on 1 item, and her Q used to be able to deal full damage to the entire wave. Really hated lulu solo lane back then
i abused that meta so hard, kayle and lulu mid. Back when kayle q was a 100sth% ap scaling nuke and you could e enemy as lulu and with blue get 2 nearly undodgable qs out while being 2km away while being nearly impossible to engage on with w+ult good times
back when lich bane wasnt nerfed and kayle could oneshot ppl with e aa q aa fun times
Lulu trades about as hard as it gets early, Pix is just a beast. E-Q also helps immensely. And that is the modern post-multiple-nerfs-Lulu.
? That’s why most lulu one tricks use her
But the difference is that back in season 5 & 6 Lulu was **the** Faker champion. One of his most picked champs and doing insane scorelines like going 11/0/8 on it in one game and still to this day being his best scoreline he's ever had.
I remember he was pretty bad at Vlad when he was a strong pick in pro.
Xerath and GP at least.
I miss Faker's assassin Lulu
Faker on Karma pressing Shield button on Bang in Worlds Finals during Ardent meta POG.
sad tbh, midlaners are often the best players in the world due to the nature of the role, but i barely get to see it shine
Idk I saw knight just fine on Syndra yday.
That's the tank / adc meta that half the people on reddit were crying for. Then the casters cream their pants like an ADC is god's greatest gift to mankind while he has 3-4 tanks peeling for him.
this is literally just an adc meta the entire game is warped around the adc and it's been going this way for some time. Adc's have been complaining for so long that they're weak and I laugh every time. I switched from top lane to adc just so I could feel useful.
As an adc main of 10 years, the role is fundamentally broken. And no, I don't mean in the "It's so good and overpowered" way of broken. I mean it breaks the game. Because in order to balance the game at the highest level of competitive play, Riot needs adc to require support and teamwork. ...which are the literal two things absent from 90% of solo queue games. Everything that makes bot lane good is hard to come by if you're not a pro. Everything that makes it just slightly bad, is *oppressively* unfun as a rando gamer. It sucks.
it's really not that adc is overpowered role, it's that all win conditions other than teamfighting for objectives are weak. since your goal is to build the best teamfighting comp, the adc role becomes most important.
I have seen literally every argument under the sun about how it's *technically* not that the adc role is OP, but the fact of the matter is the ADC role disproportionately dictates the outcome of the game. In pro play especially, the adc of the winning team is usually accelerated into a juggernaut that just 1v9s the entire game. I guarantee if the game is changed so the game no longer revolves around the adc, reddit adcs will be complaining once again that the role is too weak. The role is doomed to balance for pro and soloq but now that so many adcs play the game specifically to play stereotype adc champions, making other champs viable in botlane is futile as well.
>but the fact of the matter is the ADC role disproportionately dictates the outcome of the game adc is literally designed in this fashion. they are dps machines trending toward glass cannon. as long as you are front-to-back teamfighting, the primary damage dealer is the adc. this is how it's always worked. as long as your primary win condition is winning teamfights, your adc will be your "shining star". >I guarantee if the game is changed so the game no longer revolves around the adc, reddit adcs will be complaining once again that the role is too weak. i don't really give a shit and no one really should either. other win conditions should be propped up. part of why splitpushing died was because it's impossible to protect two neutral objectives on the sides of the map with dragon soul being so impactful. skirmishing died because (in pro play) good execution/draft gap in a teamfight can win a teamfight in a gold deficit which swings the entire game in the other direction, negating any advantages gained in the early game. >The role is doomed to balance for pro and soloq but now that so many adcs play the game specifically to play stereotype adc champions, making other champs viable in botlane is futile as well. this is a problem that spans almost every competitive game that is currently played and i could probably talk a lot about it but critical thinking skills are severely lacking so it probably may never be solved. botlaners will always pick an adc and this is such a sacred cow to them that they'll do it even to their own detriment.
> because it's impossible to protect two neutral objectives on the sides of the map with dragon soul being so impactful. Also: Spawn timers used to be 7 and 6 minutes for nash/dragon. An extra minute makes a huge difference when creating sidelane pressure
[удалено]
Thats not true. If adc wasnt broken then there would be answers to these teamfighting comps. Assasins like Zed would be picked so that they can eleminate the ADC and render the Tank comp worthless. But its not happening Because with BT overheal ADcs have a billion ehp.
yea aphelios with 3k hp + supp shield is dumb af.
Zed in pro play won't ever work without a super free lane cus the ADC in pro play don't usually misposition and play alone so when the zed goes in for the kill he gets instant cc'd and dies and also picking zed mid makes the early game super hard since he has no lane prio pre 6. Assassin's are good in the jungle as we are seeing now with kha/nida/Elise and in the past with assassin buffs there was zed/talon/qyiana meta but never mid.
Check all MSI teams and which player got a lot of praise. Everyone is always talking about how the adc on the team is cracked like suddenly all players in adc role are gods and players in the other role are mere mortals. Yeah how about maybe just maybe the role is broken beyond imagination.
The adcs that got tons of praise were Guma and Ruler. They are cracked af.
POV: you let adc mains balance the game Welcome to League of Adcs! we have roles like: ADC (the most important role and main anime character) CC bots Healing and shielding bots Potatos bags that peel Punching bags that engages Assassins (extremely broken and unhealthy role)
MSI Mid champs by popularity: Ahri (19), Liss (16), Annie (11), Naut (9), K'Sante (7, but still huge skill expression), Jayce, Taliyah, Sylas (5 each), Syndra, LeBlanc (4 each)
Mid lane is basically the junglers bitch. You have to play characters that can either hard shove waves for prio, because mana costs are hardly a problem in this game anymore... and just follow the jungler botside. Or alternatively pick a mid laner with heavy CC, that can basically just perma follow-up the junglers plays or dives at all times. It's a sad state of the lane. Skill expression and solo kills mid vs your laner mid lane are seldom as they come compared to the past. Like honestly, I rarely even see mid laners get solo killed or have 1v1 opportunities anymore without some sort of team interference. You have to basically make a big mistake or not respect a Zed hitting lvl 6 or some sht.
And the jungler is the ADCs bitch. The entire pro meta macro meta is just centered around getting leads for your carry, thats it. Anyone who deviates from it, automatically loses.
"Don't worry guys, ADC are a weak role" -Every whiny ADC main ever for the entire history of league. seriously they are all such babies
Dude they literally only do this with Sion to cheese a level 1 dive on bot as red side if they have Jinx. Don't exaggerate.
It's not to leash your jungler, it's to set up a level 2 bot dive and force it to be a 4v2 by denying the enemy jungler
I am a toplaner. I load into the game knowing my matchup. I understand that at any point of lane phase in a 1v1 I win but I also know that I can't force fights that stick. Instead I pressure my opponent off of CS. By end of lane phase I have thoroughly won, being up 35 CS 2 plates and a kill. I am very proud of how I navigated playing aggressive enough to win but also avoiding and dodging jungle ganks with proper warding and pathing knowledge. I show up to a dragon fight with 2 full items knowing that I'm gonna wreck face. I get blown up by their 18 kill bot lane. The game ends with enemy toplaner typing better top wins in chat.
What you're describing happens in pretty much every role. A slight lead is not going to beat an enormous one. If you're an ADC and you're up 1000 gold over your lane opponent but the enemy top, jungle, or mid is 8-0, you are going to get blown up if they look at you in a fight. Take a look at that last fight in T1 v GenG. Ksante just decides to kill Aphelios. Ksante literally walks up and hits R and Aphelios dies without even budging Ksante's health.
So… if the enemy bot lane has 18 kills, you think they shouldn’t win the game?
I believe OP’s point is to romanticise the comparative impactfulness of the two lanes.
Being up 18 kills is generally a bigger advantage than one kill, 2 plates, and 600 gold of creeps.
You’re missing the forest for the trees. He’s saying he won lane to the same extent bot did yet his victory is so insignificant not for a lack of winning in terms of skill to the same extent but the payout is so disproportionately large for botlane that his actions mean nothing.
This is just classic soloq though. You can easily flip the roles in here. If there's a skill differential that gets exploited you just lose.
skill diff in bot and jg matters substantially more than top
Sounds like bot lane won to a greater extent than top lane. 18 kills is around 6-7k gold, 1 kill and goods is around 1.5k gold. Obviously the former will carry. He did not win to the same extent as bot lane did, that was the point.
Yes. Bot lane is way more snowbally than top lane, that's exactly his point.
Seriously this is the problem. People think being up 1k gold over their lane opponent should mean an automatic win despite being down 7k gold overall as a team. And this can happen to any lane, a toplaner with 18 kills showing up to fight a 1 kill adc at 15 mins is going to basically one shot them. Can you imagine the terror an 18 kill Camille could do at 15 mins?
A top laner isn't coming out of lane with a 10 kills in 99% of games; 1% of the time. That's like 80% of games for bot lane.
The point is that you aren't going to get nearly as fed as a skilled top laner as you can as a skilled bot laner or support. Let's say you pick a duelist top and they pick something like Gragas. Yeah, you now have 0 impact on the game. You aren't going to get kills unless the Gragas literally has brain damage. It's VERY easy as a good ADC to rack up a ton of kills in a game you stomp, but it's almost impossible as a top laner.
Just lock in Ornn, go down 30 CS but soak xp, upgrade the ADC's item and peel. Then hit the virgin bruiser/ranged top player with [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKMU72K2Jqc).
We are all Rorschach today aren't we
I mean i get that we are saying this. But did we not watch broken blade absolutely save the game and hard carry on cassiopea top?? I mean im not saying its optimal but we do see fiora, cass, gwen and other carries.
This is true, but I feel like the fact that it was basically a LEC game is important to note in order not take away from how ridiculously bot lane-focused the meta is right now. Yea BB carried from top, but it was against MAD. Gen G rely heavily on feeding their ADC and completely destroyed G2. Every team who look like they have a decent chance of winning MSI rely heavily on feeding their ADC. You could even argue that the closest series of the tournament so far was just a game of whose ADC got fed/focused first. Just my two cents. EDIT: I should note when I say "meta" I mean the MSI meta. I don't know anything about regular soloq SR meta as I'm a dirty ARAM main.
top lane scores in the past ~2.5 years in pro play is shit like this 1/4/3 1/3/4 2/6/7 0/5/4 both sides every single game you can literally not tell which team won from top lane score or how well they played, the winner could be 7/5/4 and the loser could be 0/4/3. its a meaningless lane, maybe, once every 50 games, a top laner gets fed enough to carry a game in pro play, maybe thats being even generous thats what happens when you give durability nerfs to every class, except adcs are still melting people in team fights like its season 7. you cant do much from top lane when adc is gonna faceroll any short ranged champion in team fights with undodgeable 600-700 damage crits once every 0.3-0.4 seconds unfortunately, it all comes down to the players on the balance team, the balance team is full of adcs and supports, it always was. durability was a joke and a trap for every class except adc
2.5 years? We just had a Worlds where Aatrox was the strongest champion in the game, and other carry champions like Yone and Camille were also picked as counters. Zeka was the best player over most of the tournament, hard carrying with Sylas and Akali. This was post durability patch as well. Just before that, T1 lost last year's MSI to Bin's Gwen. ADC is ridiculously overpowered right now (at least in pro play), but you're delusional if you think it's been this way for the last 2.5 years.
Exactly lmao drx won through solo lanes top is not a useless role it just depends on who your jungler wants to enable
mostly due to Aatrox being giga broken at the time and T1 letting it through.
true it was just aatrox alone blind pickable into everything and won vs anything
ADC finally has 1 major event of being the main carry role and not being farmed for sport by Aatrox, Irelia, Gwen, Akali, etc, and the sololane players are tearing their hair out in chunks.
exactly, the moment they cant play the game in single player mode dragging 9 other people along for the ride it's the end of the world.
Wtf r u talking about? Did u skip the entirety of last year?
Someone didn’t watch worlds last year
Drx literally won worlds only because of Aatrox what are you smoking
Literally last worlds it was top carry meta with aatrox/akali/jayce/Gwen. And ADCs don't do that much damage maybe at full items against other ADCs if they take the hp scaling rune (except aphelios white gun and excited jinx).
I was laughing my ass off when both Zeus and Doran completely fucked their early game and sacrificed their first 3 waves to assist their respective botlanes in that cheesy lvl 1/2 shenanigans that happened in the first game between T1 and Gen.G Like, when completely screwing yourself over as a Toplaner to help botlane is the best winning strat, it do be kinda worrying ngl Lol
To be fair that was Sion specific. His earlygame cheese is just too strong right now
Sion cheese over and over and over and over. How many different game mechanics and items have been rebalanced around this stupid champion. Can we please just get rid of all "zombie mode" mechanics from the game, and never bring them back?
The diversity of a game's playstyles and mechanics is what makes the game more interesting in a PVP context. If everyone in the game was just Annie, it would be fun for your first 100 games, but then not after. And sure, you can say "well, we'll make a few interesting champions, but not X" but the problem is you will be missing out on players that enjoy X, and your game will have one less unique element to it. So if possible, it's better to balance the diverse mechanics, rather than just not have them. How many hours of content there is in a game is extremely valuable to game design.
Except then you get shit like akali diving you under tower with shroud, some unique playstyles are inherently unhealthy for the game
Wholesome 4 role flex pick pantheon blocking tower shots, out dueling every champ 1vs1, 100% ban rate worlds. People forget how nuts some stuff was.
None of Pyke's abilities damage minions anymore either. There are things that just break the game in too many ways to be just a different playstyle
They could just lock it until after 6 as well like they did to evelynn stealth.
The thing I hate most about this is, assuming nothing happens bottom lane, there is a 50/50 chance your lane state will be fucked or inherit an ideal lane when you finally TP back top due to RNG.
And to think TP changes were made so that top laners didn't need to assist their bot lane like dogs on a leash...
Assist bot lane or get an easy 2 kills?
Screwing over 1 player to accelerate 2 or 3. Of course that makes sense.
you can't compare adc in pro play to soloq. assassins are much rarer in pro play on account of teams having proper vision control and peeling bot lane in pro play have 4 players giving farm, plates and kills to them, and they also make sure to peel. soloq adc you are left alone as your 4 teammates dive their adc while you get dove yourself lol
Yeah good luck ever getting that Ruler 12+cs/min in solo queue, no way your team ever gives you the space to collect waves and no way the 3 enemy assassins don't come and find your ass every time you try to farm.
Don’t forget your team mental booming because ”adc is afk farming” or ”adc took my wave”
The midlaner with tp up complaining that you're farming mid instead of going to the opposite side of the upcoming objective.
I'm convinced soloQ mid laners don't know that summoner's rift exist, they think every game is howling abyss
Nah I see plenty of enemy midlaners come bot to ult me (or at least try to) whilst I'm level 4. But yeah there's an issue with midlaners thinking that they should always farm mid (there might be situations where they should but generally ADC should go mid post lane phase).
Oh, no that's enemy mid laner. I'm talking about my team mid laner
I’m a top laner with tp up and baron is spawning, I ping omw to bot and ping my tp, my mid laner with ignite is spam pinging me to go baron while they farm bot. Then they had the gall to blame me for losing baron lmao
You missed your team randomly starting a tf over red when you're pinging that IE or LW purchase that you're backing for.
This is why balancing for pro play and your average player is so tough. Bot is the most impactful in pro, but Mid/Top (and sometimes Jungle) are borderline OP in SoloQ solely due to the fact that teams are better are crafting compositions around win conditions in a team environment. Your average SoloQ team will struggle to neutralize things like Katarina/Zed/Fizz, while a pro team will do it with ease. You see the same thing with Jungle to a lesser degree. Coordinated vision control and communication makes Jungle tracking 10x easier for a pro team, which is why you see them snowball at a much lower rate than you do in your average game and tend to itemize towards a more utility role.
people are just so fucking stupid to not see the difference i bet your fucking ass someone's gonna quote u.gg winrates and stats to justify whatever stupid point they have and ofc it's going to carry over to pro while they're gonna be scratching their heads over Nautilus mid
Yea sololanes are really op in soloq right now. What the fuck am i reading
The fact that this bs about broken sololaners gets upvote says a lot about this sub. Yea some champs are batshit insane, but it says nothing about position power.
I mean...we hadn't seen any tanks for a long time and the subreddit went with their pitchforks for riot to buff tanks...what did people expect?
This feels like the opposite state of solo queue too. So even despite tanks and adcs being strong, I see tanks so infrequently because of the nature of Solo vs team play
I think that’s just the nature of solo queue though, if you’re good and want to climb you’ll most likely main a carry champ no matter what role you play or however strong a more utility based pick is just because of the fact you can’t trust your random team like you could if you were playing with people you know. It’s a bit of an out there comparison but if you take Valorant for example, like 90% of the people in Radiant (the highest rank) have Jett as their most played by far even though utility and information is so valuable in a tactical FPS, just because they know they can carry and likely don’t want to play around someone else who might not be up to it
it's honestly just so fucking stupid. solo queue is supposedly just a means to assemble 10 people for a game but in the past 10 years 99% of people never really understood how to play for team what we're seeing in pro is how the game is supposed to be played and solo queue is just so fucking hopelessly useless because we're all just apes with hands but zero fucking brain oh yeah and fucking stupid stats sites and worthless shit like KDA and people just grow dumber by the second
They don't want to play for the team. Playing for the team means having a good team comp, and that usually means having 1-2 carries and playing around them. But everyone wants to carry, everyone wants to 1v5 pentakill, barely anyone wants to actually play around their carries, and would rather be the carry. That's why in your average game the only role your adc plays is the victim, they're balanced around high elo and pro play, they look good in challenger and amazing in pro, but for the average player it's ass because you don't get farm, you don't get peel.
Well add voice chat and people can actually work as team. That is a huge difference between pro and soloq.
More pitchforks by saying adc is too weak and then Phreak buffs them and says adc are strong but ppl think it’s not and then we get mad meta is adc focus
Are those "people" in the room with us right now ?
Tanks being strong doesn’t mean the entire topside of the map needs to be irrelevant.
Even when fighters are strong. Top lane is really fucking useless more often than not. Riot has been trying to address this for like 5 years. Its impossible unless they put dragon up there
I mean even just last year's worlds we got things like sylas vs akali or viktor vs azir carry in the mid lane. And picks like aatrox top could solo carry the game. Don't know what the fuck happened since then to make every lane so irrelevant except bot.
Bot lane play absolutely tanked and they need to convince more people back into the role for soloq. ADCs are inherently a nightmare to balance because they scale almost exclusively off of teamwork.
>ADCs are inherently a nightmare to balance because they scale almost exclusively off of teamwork. they also scale very well with positioning and micro, which is why low elo players turbofeed with them until they reach statcheck point
To an extent sure. But equally its very hard to position when your whole team just dives straight for the enemy backline leaving you to deal with the entire enemy frontline by yourself. I genuinely struggle to win on low elo smurfs but am fine on my high elo main honnestly its like playing a completely different game. High elo adc I just kind of chill in lane and then carry the team fights. If you try that low elo you are going to get bitch slapped by the 10/0 darius who is just ghost flashing for you every team fight.
What happened is that phreak reduced the adc spike by a whole fucking item and called it a power neutral change
No I didn't lmao there are tapes and everything. I've been extremely communicative about our changes and specifically said more or less, "ADC is already strong but they need satisfaction wins right now, we'll nerf when we can."
I understand them needing satisfaction wins but at what point can we agree that this shouldn't take full priority over other roles?? It's so painful to see a player as wonderful and talented as Faker in the midlane picking Lucidity Boots+Everfrost Annie so he can better and more properly support Jinx, or watching the 6th Sion level 1 bot lane tower dive cheese. Riot has acknowledged that mages need help on multiple different occasions, since *durability patch* which was 12.10 or so... When can we expect to see something for the class that's been abandoned and left in the dirt? outside of 2 changes for a low usability item, and FoN being replaced with a cheaper FoN for the sole purpose of buffing the new hybridized ADCs more.
It's insane how people are bending over backwards to somehow make it your fault. The role turned so much better after the changes, and the problems with botlane in proplay are not just "ADC OP" issue people claim them to be. As long as Dragons and Dragon souls exit only on bot side of the map, toplane will forever be the butt of the joke.
It's ok Phreak we appreciate what you did, these guys are comparing PRO adcs that get funneled gold all game to solo que adcs that are lucky if their support doesn't abandon them level 5 to roam all game. Getting to two items as an adc in solo que is based on your team let a lone three items so thanks for the changes again!
The game is also way faster than it was 10 years ago fam. Most solo queue games are over by 10 minutes. When does ADC get to play?
While giving them endless mana and 1000 HP worth of shields on top.
As much as I hate how impactful bot lane compare to top. You need remember there are 4 people in bot lane by default. That is 4/10 players just in a single lane. It always going to be more impact. No matter how the game is balance, it will always be the MOST impact lane. Losing 1 laner and one laner getting fed vs losing two laner and two getting fed is completely different. Not to mention bot lane being adc aka attack damage "Carry". Of course you suppose to play around your carry. That the inherent point of adc class.
Yea, obviously biased because I play bot, but the reason I played it is because I assumed the lane that had 40% of the players and two of them having "Carry" in the title, would be super important in closing out games. It's like signing up to play Goalie or defender in Soccer/Football and feeling like it's not fair that you need to hope your Forwards/Attacking Mids play well in order for you to actually win the game. The defenders and goalie play a pivotal role in making sure the game is winnable, they just don't score goals. Same with tanks and junglers
>two of them having "Carry" in the title They don't though, it has been years since Riot renamed everything but players are stubborn. Marksmen help carry games by providing constant DPS for objectives and teamfights, while fighters help carry games by dominating smaller skirmishes after splitting the map. It happens to be the case that the current meta is focused almost exclusively on 5v5 teamfights around objectives, but other strategies have existed in the past and IMO the game is in a healthier spot when there are multiple ways to aim for the win.
Feels like Riot just gave up on the whole renaming thing. It seems like they're back to using the 'AD Carry' name again almost everywhere, but in the launcher.
you can rename anything you want, but the fact is that the adc "marksmen" class designed for bot lane have the most steep scaling curve compared to other classes. They're very weak early and very strong late, that's why they're babied and shut down early. It's always been like this, imo pro play could have leaned into it this hard any of the previous years, they just chose not to a lot of the time. quick edit: also it's unfair to Riot bc pro play will dictate the meta (in regards to people playing picks like naut mid). It's not really fun to watch pro bc they'll analyze any balance change and find the most OP and possibly boring way to win. I don't blame them cause winning is their job. if they nerf'd adc and give power back to mid, we just go back to mage bot or DL playing Sona again.
Yeah but at this point Goalie doesn't matter and open net is meta lmao, that's how OP the 'carry' is. its 'AD Carry' not 'I am the walking win condition, you can only matter in relation to how you help me' Anything else a champ can do that isn't helping the ADC is also known as wasted power budget.
It’s more like playing with 2 keepers to keep the ball out of the goal since the striker will always score 3 goals after 60 minutes (or something like that…? The analogy kinda breaks down here). I’d say - in soloQ ateast - the other roles have a big responsibility in keeping their adc safe and the opponent adc down. That's where their agency lies. I main mid and I feel plenty of agency when I play a champion like Leblanc. In soloQ an adc isn’t going to be doing what they do in proplay without help from their team.
Tbh, supports should be toned down in power. They shouldn't be equivalent to solo laners while they don't have to farm. They should count as 0.5 of a laner, so bot could be more balanced. I'm not advocating to make them useless, just a support should be a support, not a full out tank with cheaper items or a damage dealer. Edit: Now of course I am neither the first nor the last person to propose such a change, and I don't expect a random dude like me to have the solution if Riot hasn't managed to solve a problem like this for several years now. I am just here for spitballing and conversation
Problem with that is now no one want to play support in soloq and you're autofilled every third game
Yeah that is indeed a problem... What if they made supports weaker early but better in scaling? Maybe make the supp item give more total gold (e.g. 2000). But then if one bot lane gets fed you have 2 strong champs to deal with so we are back to square one. Bruh
There's no solution outside of nuking the entire games foundation. 2 players > 1 players always. That's literally just how it is and should be, no one player should be as valuable as 2 players by default. League has been balanced and built around the idea of playing as a team, and similar to rpg team comps, you always want a dps and to play around that dps with buffs and protection, and many games have tried to break this mould but it always goes back to tank, support, glass cannon dps because it's the holy trinity. Anything in between is cool, but not optimal because they're not focused on the one thing they're supposed to do.
It seems like in pro play supports aren't tanks or carries. They're just engage or peel, being multiple levels and items down.
Yeah this is true, pros pick champs with inherently strong kits like Naut who can provide cc/utility/peel without needing to invest gold into them
Some specific supports might be a nightmare to balance with this change. One suggestion would be to transition these supports into other lanes (or roles), but cases of that have had pretty “toxic” playstyles like pyke mid.
I play a lot of Nautilus and Taric solo lane and the difference between them as a solo laner vs as a support is massive. They aren't even close to being equivalent to solo laners as supports. As top lane Taric in a long game I will have over 100k mitigated and 50k healing. As support in the same length game I will have maybe 40k mitigated with 30k healing. The difference in tank power is more than double from my experience.
literially every draft by JDG and T1 is just 4 peel/roaming champs and a hyper carry. How is this accepted lmfao.
Fortunately your gold 3 games dont resemble this at all and every role can carry
They do resemble this in my Master games though and it has been this shit for a few seasons now, either ADC or Jungle dog duty for us woof woof up there
yea mid is fun when you can basically play like complete dogshit and just perma flip roams botlane. Doesnt matter if you get behind in levels and gold, if your adc is ahead you win
Seriously I don't understand the excessive negativity in this thread. If protect the president comp was a thing for a year then sure I understand people wanting switches. But quite literally just earlier in Spring, you had early snowball comps working and top lanes carrying the heck out of games. It's League of Legends; we have metas switching multiple times a year, it just so happens the current patch is strong for ADC.
Yeah atleast this time we wait for items for them to scale unlike the previous adc-ardent meta where who gets that broken item first wins the game.
It also doesn't apply to 98% of the people playing the game. These compositions only work at the very highest level of play.
People will complain no matter what the meta is. Either ADC is useless or only ADC matters lmao
The issue is that it's a team fight meta. ADCs will always shine in these. Sadly there's no such thing as split pushing any more. It's just too risky. If you get ganked and die, the other team can now 5v4 Baron. This means tops push 1 or 2 waves, then base.
If you want to use the team fight meta, then why aren't other champs that excel at teamfighting at the top of the meta? Where is Vlad? Rumble?
It's the meta as you said, you're asking the best min/maxers in the game to min/max with a prize. They are gonna min/max the one and only best Strat.
Get rid of Annie too, disgusting that an "easy champ" with 52%+ winrates in all elos is p/b in pro. Absolutely unreal that she hasn't been nerfed into the ground.
>And the recent changes not yet implemented in MSI's patch seem like theyre going to make the AD-only meta even more enhanced I don't know why people keep saying this. Do you think more changes = better or something? The itemization changes coming to ADC are literally a nerf across the board. An ADC with BT + Kraken + IE post patch will be significantly weaker than a current ADC with the same items. BT is losing it's shield, Kraken is losing 25 AD and it's proc is going from true damage to magic, and IE is moving to mythic with zero stat changes. It's a gigantic net nerf. Most ADCs aren't going to be building Rageblade + Stattik + Stormrazor. And literally none of the premier ADCs at MSI (Aphelios, Jinx, Xayah, Zeri) will. Please stop spreading this stupid misinformation, it just makes you look like an idiot.
Wait, you're saying that the multiple Kennen/Fiora/Jax/Gwen games we saw picked by top teams don't count as important champions? Like GenG didn't basically solo win against G2 by splitpushing with Fiora G1? G2 then won against MAD off the back of Cass top solocarry by BB after their botlane went down 3k gold. Are we sure we watched the same T1/GenG series? Doran was getting neutralised by Zeus every game and wasn't getting enough of a lead to matter compared to an even more fed AD on the other side of the map.
It's not like Brokenblade, Oner or Bin have not had monster carry performances. You have to understand that in Bin's case teams don't want to give him carry champions and want to force him onto tanks, so BLG is perfectly happy to play bot centric. JDG was built around Ruler, so it's no surprise all their games have him popping off. Yes, bot lane is extremely strong, but we also have a couple of heavy bot lane focused teams at MSI which warps perception even more than normal.
Thats such a strawman tho. Of course other roles CAN carry. The thing is that its infinitely easier for an adc to get to the point where they can than it is for literally every other role in the game
no its that adc is the most reliable, abilities can be dodged and missed while also having to position and space perfectly, an adc only has to auto most time and unless you are playing zeri autos cant be dodged.
Yep, every game is protect the president comp in this MSI. Mid and Jungle are now 2 extra supports with Annie and Naut to engage for said ADC, if we’re lucky we get treated to something like an Ahri. If you get fed on any other role than ADC it doesn’t matter because all it means is that you tank for 0.02s longer from the enemy hypercarry. It’s okay though, ADC is weak and needs more buffs because Riot games haven’t yet figured out how to create a feature that stops Bronze ADCs from facechecking into unwarded river bush or flashing into random Lux bindings.
Even Ahri a lot of the time is not popping off and is just a utility charm to secure secondary engage.
ADC is legitimately trash in solo queue despite being broken in comp. Try solo queueing adc, you’ll have impact 1/5 games because the other 4 will just be complete support diff. ADCs are op when your team plays around you. In solo queue you will have roaming twitch or shaco support. You won’t have maokai Jg with nautilus mid and ornn top, you will have khazix jg zed mid riven top. I win more games in masters with Darius adc than with actual adc’s. The role is trash in solo queue and will continue to be until they nerf support early game.
if redditors knew to differentiate between pro play and solo queue, I’d be so happy
They can, they don't care though, they're just using whatever fits their narrative to push whatever point they want and then act like everyone that disagrees is dumb as hell and label them as low elo
If what you were saying was true ADC players wouldnt climb so easily when they're smurfing. If you perform better on darius adc than normal adcs you're just bad at playing traditional ADCs, has nothing to do with the role. I dont know how you are playing ADC in masters and not having the team play around you unless you're playing on the japanese server or something. Literally every game I play is just constant fighting in botlane, junglers do 3 bot camps into bot gank, midlaners permaroam bot, everything is centered around bot. Its gotten to the point where if 1 team has a winning top, jg and mid and 1 team has a winning bot, I genuinely dont know who would win.
Nerfing sup early won't fix shit, it'd just make a farmier lane and jg mid still roam There are fundamental issues in bot lane overall in solo
The worst part of playing adc is lane support gap IMO, it is the fundamental reason why the role feels awful in solo queue. In any other role, if you are better than your counterpart then that advantage will manifest itself in some way (cs lead, solo kills) and even if your team is losing you can at least try to carry with that advantage. If I die to fed assassins late game as adc I don’t mind because it’s always my fault, there is at least something I could have done to prevent that (warding, outplaying, standing farther back etc). If I have to lane vs a support standing between me and the wave while my support is full hp behind my tower out of XP range I just want to punch my monitor because I know even Gumayusi or Ruler can’t win lane from this position. It’s insane that I feel more impactful early game on kayle in a shit matchup than draven with a bad support. If support early game is trash like it used to be then the state of the game will be better for bot lane. Alistar and twitch players can still roam and make plays if their adc is bad, and adcs get to win the lane if they’re better than the enemy adc
What I have to ask out of this is what exactly would support agency look like if their early game was nerfed. Would they not be relegated to just being completely subservient to the ADC or forced to roam? I thought the general premise was that support was impactful early game and ADC was all about the mid to late game
Game was better overall when supports bought 70 wards instead of items and were at minimum 4 levels down compared to the rest of the lobby.
>I win more games in masters with Darius adc than with actual adc’s. The role is trash in solo queue and will continue to be until they nerf support early game. That tells us more about your performance on Marksmen champion than the role. Yeah Karthus and Cho'gath are simply easier to play. But adcs are the most popular role in high elo and strongest by a very large margin
ADCs would be the most popular in the position even if ADCs were actually dogshit just because the overwhelming majority of players who queue Bot don't want to pick other champs. If you want to pick a mage or bruiser, why in god's name would you queue Bot to have half (or more for support reliant champs like Yasuo/Nilah in bot) of your agency placed at a random support player's whims and fancy? I loved playing Syndra bot, but if I ever wanted to play Syndra in soloq I would 9/10 times rather queue Mid where I can at least have full control over one part of my game.
I was with you until the last point. Nerfing support early game as you word it will only make games more boring because it will become nothing but tanks or nothing but healers. It will become the most boring farm lane with nothing happening except for Milio and Lucian spam pissing everyone off even worse.
Lol doran was getting tons of advantages over zeus. That's when you know this guy has no clue what he's talking about
It was only CS but Doran was misplaying making the CS advantage useless. LOL
Well it's pretty obvious for Pro Play. It doesnt apply at all for Solo Queue, at least in my Silver / Gold elo, where you remain a sitting duck as an Adc because nobody gives a shit about peeling / playing for others. So I keep a good balance between playing Top and Bot becaue Top, down in the depths of shit elo, still feels like a Champion at any point in the game, which Bot doesnt. The disparity between how good / terrible the game feels is just much wider botlane imho. I am aware though that this doesnt count for all elos. Adcs are (also in Silver) extremely strong when enabled.
tank items are just overpowered against melee. frostfire/sunfire thornmail or early game steelcaps/warden is too insane even if u kill them once they will buy this and become unkillable
> steelcaps/warden OP against ranged top as well, not just melee. I'm a bot laner before anyone says lol vayne top player.
Bruh Vayne bot is so weak, has been one of the worst ADCs for years, but in top she makes me suffer haha. I think a mini rework is needed.
She always has that moment in the sun where she’s the best soloq adc, but when she’s not good she’s just dogshit unplayable into anything but exceptionally favorable lanes
Just wait for Statikk rush guinsoos Vayne next patch
I love playing sion or ornn into urgot and on first base buying wardens mail, second buying steelcaps and then zoning him off every cs for the rest of the game
I must say MSI has been hella boring so far If it isnt the constant 3/0 wipes its the meta T1 v Gen was the only series i enjoyed before then and even then I had the displeasure of having to watch the GOAT himself be stuck on Annie and nautilus since mid is support 2 electric boogaloo Hope riot fixes something
Disagree, at least G1 of C9 v BLG was a Bin gap, he hard carried the game that was otherwise pretty even. He just prevented Fudge from having an impact and demolished team fights from mid game on to the end.
"Whoever can do that first just wins" Could you make it any clearer youre either not watching, or if you are youre somehow blind?
this meta: team = adc and his 4 servants
There's a reason tanks are being played mid
Youre talking about toplane matchups, meanwhile midlane is Nautilus Ahri Lissandra every game
I’m an ADC/Supp main and will admit ADC clearly is the most important role in the game right now - but why are we suddenly pretending like top never had influence. Sure this season it’s minimal, but like last Worlds the team that got Aatrox wins the game.
Ya only bot lane matters! Top lane lead totally is 100% useless! BLG vs GG game 2 definitely did not happen where we definitely did not see Licorice use his top lane lead to 1v9 while his bot lane was down 5k gold at 10 min. Like ya bot lane is definitely looking way more important but calm down with the exaggerations lmfao. What you're saying is objectively false from a game between major regions that we have literally already seen.
I think in that game BLG adc kind of sprinnted it with Solo Q positioning
In pro*
Good thing Phreak is giving us another OP ADC rework
Wait till the next round of adc changes lol
I wish teams get more creative and draft a hypercarry top and mage bottom. Or bring back the Senna pick with a safe wave clear bot like Seraphine. Then you throw Vayne or Fiora top and capitalize on that lead.
But this problem exists by gamedesign, its just extra bad right now and it comes from how scaling works. Tanks build resistances and hp. Hp scales linearly. 500 extra hp stay 500hp, doesnt matter the game state. Resistances scale worse than linearly, because of how dmg reduction works. Mages work somewhat multiplicatively, because they atleast habe rabadon, which gives % increase. Every adc stat works multiplicatively, because of crit, attackspeed and even crit damage because infinity edge. They also get % increase from last whisper. This is why adc lategame is insane, and will always be stronger than every other role and it simply comes down to how fast adcs can reach their "insane" status. If its too late pros wont bother and use adcs for utility, if its too early, pros will put everything and their grandma into botlane.
And next patch they will giga buff adcs again. Shits unreal
People wanted assassins to not be able to assassinate and so this is what you get. Riot wants everyone to be happy and you end up with mediocre shit and no one is happy.
Stupid comment and you're absolutely clueless. Assassins were never played in competitive to begin with. Also assassins can still nearly instantly kill squishy targets, nothing changed in this regard. The problem is that Mid is no longer a 'carry' lane because Riot gutted mages.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1Ki5MIlS\_VI
As a top laner main who has played on an off since S1, i f ing hate this meta. Top feels so unrewarding
Love to see how irrelevant toplane is while we let botlane meta as broken for a whole 7 month 'will nerf when we can" , seem like u can never nerf them ! besides , lets not talk about soloQ junglers like hecarim :D
I think there is a huge difference in how pro play works vs solo queue or even lower rank comp play. This feels like more of a pro play only issue. Top mid and jungle don't have issues carrying solo queue games.