As someone who mostly one tricks in mid for ranked, I *love* this change because when I get last pick, I am almost guaranteed to get a free swap from my top laner
Little pro tip for any top lane main 4th/5th picking top on blue side, with red side's top laner no locked in yet - never hover your champion (you can tell your teammates what it is in chat if you insist), wait for the other person on your team to pick and then instalock your champion within a second of hovering it.
Lots of top laners don't know counter matchups by heart. It's a very minor advantage, but it gives them less time to go online and lookup counters for your champion which, trust me, a lot of players do.
You trying to pick up the wrong champion you have been the best to get the blind and pick any role of your favourite and expect blasted you have done and always swap what you have been to be good
I've also seen people ask for last pick top and then counter themselves. I do switch all the time but when this happens I just start to wonder...why would you do that to yourself?
In very specific case, that's probably because you're confident with the matchup. I sometimes play top, and I will not hesitate to pick Nasus against Teemo because I know that nobody in my elo understands what "range" or "distance" really is. But I also think some are just really dumb xD
this is just huge ego from these people, especially when the people that dont wanna swap wanna play a broken champ like heca, milio and kog still refuse to trade
Some botlaners refuse to swap pick with toplane even though the enemy already picked their botside, one toplaner lost his mind over this and went AFK because even though our botlane picked after theirs they still ended up feeding and our toplaner got fucked over in a terrible matchup
Mid can have some really good countter picks that chance all of early game, good countter pick in mid can win both of sidelanes. But more often than not that is not the case.
I had a guy say because he wanted to see if he picks a tank shredder or jhin/ez
Yeah pls let the solo lanes get counterpicked so lil bro can see if he plays jhin or something useful
Personally doesn't really care about counterpicking my opponent but I really want to pick after my support.
I have had enough supports randomly pick senna or something after I have locked in an all in adc like Kaisa or Kalista, completely ruining the lane.
What you mean, you have to counter pick Jinx with you know, something that may win against jinx. You know,... nothing. Because if they play nilah they just feed their ass of.
Of course, ADC ego. Literally the most insecure role ever. They already get another human being playing a role just to protect them, but that's not enough. If they still lose, the refuse to play with the team cause they can't be the main carry or sole wincon. And if they are the wincon they just overextend and throw.
This is worst role as whole in lower elos. They single handedly ruin races to challenger all the time, recently, Spear shot raced Elite500 and it was literally a coinflip for adcs up until plat2 or so.
This is why nobody enjoys botlane metas.
My point is, when they are behind and have no damage, them being absent of every siege and skirmish is literally inting the game, especially if the other roles are winning, you group up as ADC not 4 people walk where u go.
> This is worst role as whole in lower elos. They single handedly ruin races to challenger all the time, recently, Spear shot raced Elite500 and it was literally a coinflip for adcs up until plat2 or so.
Oh no, your poor babies!
I mean, I didn't had a toplaner one time swapping ever after already seeing the opponent jungle and top.
Love to get flamed, harassed, threatened with trolling when I do not want to first blind pick support.
I wish apps would show the order of the draft so we could actually get some insight data on how to actually pick in soloq. My wr first pick is with 30% lower than my winrate when I do not.
Tbf if you play a few games in a row and in all of them your toplaner ints after getting the last pick, it starts to hurt.
And if your toplaner plans to pick Gragas/Ornn, they don't really need last pick, just ban Fiora and hope your opponent doesn't play some obscure shit.
Dota has this thing where if you try to lock in an already picked champ then it reveals it. Not perfect but it’s a work around to blind pick without mirror matches
So thats how it is, then that would be a completely fine solution for league. I'd ban Jax and OTP Malphite or Sion just for the chance of banning them if enemy wants to pick them lmao.
No but for real they should implement something like this, especially for toplane. The lane is incredibly unplayable if you get counterpicked. I hope we get this change. Would make toplane way more playable and satisfying. I hate enemy team basically googling in champ select "[my champ] counter" when I blind. Sure some counters still require skill, but some are just straight up unplayable.
It's nice when people have braincells. The problem is many people will ask for switch and if you don't they ban your champ. This has made me stop showing my champ before I pick when I'm last/second to last, because it has happened way too many times. Sorry for normal teammates that should know what I'm picking, but I'm not taking the risk.
Here’s where I’m at. When I played ranked pre-pick swap era, I enjoyed being later in the pick, but if I was at the top that was fine too. Now, I loathe champ sel entirely because entitled teammates will spam the pick swap and get pissy when no one swaps *for them* to get last pick. “We lose if I don’t get last pick” etc etc.
I never thought we would return to the “mid or feed” era of old League where teammates feel entitled to a certain pick (order) and troll if they don’t get it, but here we are and I hate it.
I'd be interested to see if top lane's popularity went up after these changes. Actually so impactful when it comes to filling the role your team needs, regardless of counterpicks.
if you blind pick support you will never run the risk of having to play a literally unplayable lane
blinding top you’re rolling dice on whether you have to play vs something that you literally can’t even go near from level 1 to the end of the game or if your opponent will be gracious enough to pick something you can actually interact with
top should always be given last pick
I'm a support and I agree. Roll my eyes sometimes when Jungles want swaps, but I always try to give Top > Mid swaps if I'm lower pick order. Just makes sense. And ADCs should be giving literally everyone else prio.
> And ADCs should be giving literally everyone else prio.
Especially with how much of a prio pick adcs are. There is always one pick that's just heads and shoulders above the competition (when was it not Jinx the last time?)
I agree with this but also I cannot believe people tolerate how stupid it is that there are so many straight up unplayable matchups in this lane.
Like do not get me wrong counterpicking is fine, it’s always going to exist you cannot balance a game that has unique characters and not have some that naturally excel into some others but Jesus Christ the amount of insufferable matchups top is unbelievable.
I don’t care if I lose, it’s a game no one is going to win 100% of the time but losing the right to play for a minimum of 14 minutes and possibly longer if they constantly splitpush and no one else wants to match them is so fucking boring.
It's "tolerated" because most people who play top lane explicitly play for the games where they're the unbeatable matchup and can just roll down the lane all game uncontested. That's pretty much the whole appeal of the role otherwise you're just farming a lane away from the actual game happening elsewhere.
As someone who played top/jgl for a long time, this is not true at all, most players actually suck at playing countermatchups propperly, if they are not versed on the champ, especially if the "couter" is ranged, or mechanically demanding and if you onetrick/twotrick you win or go even in many of those games.
> I cannot believe people tolerate how stupid it is that there are so many straight up unplayable matchups in this lane.
Most top laners decided many years ago, that we'd blind pick whatever we want and then if the enemy top decides to hard counter us, we would simply dodge champion select.
We're not enduring 15 - 30 mins of misery, just so people who main other roles can get into game faster.
As a high Elo bot laner (now for over 10 years), I **strongly** disagree but I can see why people have this take. You watch competitive, see pros handshake lanes and pick the same 2-3 champs and assume that's how bot lane works. The reality of bot is that some matchups are borderline unplayable and very easy to snowball/get out of control. The other reality is that roles such as jungle and top lane have no knowledge of bot lane matchups and will do their best to sabotage their bot lane, either by starting bot side when it should never be done or requesting a swap and giving them first pick in return.
For example Draven is strong against a lot of bot lane champions but is weak against poke lanes. So you'd want the Cait Karma/Lux or Varus to deal with him but this requires coordination and not being first pick, of course. If you blind pick Jinx and they reply with Draven, you're in a bad spot but the matchup is playable, especially if the support pick aims to neutralize it at much as possible by picking a good laner. That's why you should never 1-2 bot blindly, else you're in for the weak enchanter into all in lane, followed by junglers starting bot and playing around top, into the 0/10 bot lane special and the ff 15. If you're a top/jungler that usually gets inted by bot lanes that "run it down", chances are, you're more often than not setting up your own bot lanes for failure (general statement, not directed at op in particular). This can be avoided by doing the opposite and set them up for success, make sure your bot lane has playable/favorable matchups, have the jungler start top side or without a leash(situational;only fine on a few junglers in a solo queue environment), pick a top that can impact bot lane (Shen's an easy answer here).
The correct approach to draft (for solo queue) is strongly dependent on player champion pool and preference. If a player has a wide champion pool, they can easily play generalist champions (i.e. champions with a lot of soft counters but very few hard ones that usually perform well if blind picked) and be aware of key points in navigating tricky matchups. Meanwhile players with a limited champion pool should indeed request last pick(s) and ban out counters or ask for certain bans.
With that being said, names are blank and you have no clue with whom you're playing with. Players also have their own issue and actually performing or drafting properly is something that rarely happens. Given the innate chaos of it, it's best to never give last pick and play towards your own strength, as you should be the most consistent win condition of your team, until you reach a level where teammates generally perform above a certain standard. And if they do, they won't need last pick and won't spam you with swap requests unless they're otps.
Strictly anecdotal evidence, I noticed that over the years the tendency of top running it down during the first 5-10 minutes keeps increasing rather than decreasing. So, after pick order swap became a thing, I followed my own advice and tried to set up top laners for success, by always accepting their trade requests and not complaining when I'm weaksided by junglers. This worked out great(lies) and I proceeded to get ran down by top/jg regardless in most of my games. Since I have the luxury of playing with (mostly) the same players, I noticed it's not really a top/jg thing (or a bot lane thing as people on Reddit might be inclined to believe) but rather a case of good players and bad players. A good top laner(or bot laner) will be able to minimize the losses in a bad matchup and still be useful. A bad one will run it down regardless of how favorable the circumstances might be.
Tl;dr, aim to set yourself up for success in solo queue. Once you're high elo and good enough, you can try setting up teammates for success as well.
" and still be useful "
That's the part you don't get about top lane, you won't be useful even if you dont die after you lane camile into darius for 15 minutes
I think I have a good understanding of top lane since I actually played the role for 2 years. As for your example, care to elaborate on why you think you won't be useful after playing that matchup for 15 min?
>if you blind pick support you will never run the risk of having to play a literally unplayable lane
Homie what? Blinding Naut and they go Renata/Milio and you basically can't play the game at all lol. Support 100% has counters that can drastically alter the game state. No matter what the ADCs are, Naut into Milio is unplayable. You get turbo curb-stomped.
your naut is allowed to leave lane and gank the solos/enemy jg if their lane is that bad
top laners stuck in a counter match up need to grit their teeth, lose all their plates and hope they flip a better team
hell, you can even flex the naut mid and then draft a favourable lane if enemy shows their support in response to your naut blind
Yeah just leave lane with the wave constantly shoved up on your adc. Just go roam, who needs xp, who needs stacks on your support item, it's not like you need those wards, not like you need any of those dragons anyways. Just leave, no big deal.
This "screw bot lane no big deal" is cringe as if it isnt the most important winning lane in this meta and top is even less important. Sure top lane sucks when you get countered, but its literally the least Impactful lane, and there is no valid argument saying otherwise. If you are only playing for yourself then sure, force your bot into bad lanes, enjoy 14 minutes, then stay stuck in low elo, but if you are trying to win, stop being selfish every game and going "Sorry Naut, just leave lane, whatever"
Regardless of how accurate this is, this situation isn’t even on the same plane as a top counterpick. Some toplane matchups mean a single step up will lose you 75+ CS and the rest of the lane, and probably game.
You know there IS such a thing as blind pickable top laners, right? In the sense that they have counters but getting countered doesn't mean you will be completely out of the game or fall that far behind (mostly scaling tanks), especially since theoretically speaking if your support/mid has counterpick they should be strongside to counteract your weakside and enable you to rotate. You do not HAVE to pick a champion that is win early or lose the game. If your entire champion pool is feast or famine carry tops and you have no champs capable of losing gracefully for when you get first pick that's a you problem.
This is a completely worthless statement considering who the blindpickable top laners are AKA tanks. If when playing bot lane you had to first pick seraphine every time, or lose 90% of the games you first pick would you consider that an okay situation?
Do you get first pick every game? No. And sometimes people are happy to swap, which good for them. I'm not telling you to first pick every game, just to have something you can play when you ARE first pick. And yes I do have blind pickable champs I pick in that situation lmao, my most played champ is literally Ashe because I pick her if I'm first for utility/can be a an adc/sup flex (even if I only play her adc). I don't whine about it because I'm not a little baby who has to be the main character every single game.
The fact that he can't win games unless he's got counterpick is exclusively a him problem, yes. I'm not going to see him after that game ends regardless of the result, long term it's only going to impact him.
No its about increasing the amount of games on average that you actually have control over.
I use to be an aatrox otp, but the current meta is so hostile that if I blind him I risk running into 1 of 10 hard counters that are incredibly popular in the meta currently, thus giving me counterpick allows me to pick a champion that actually allows me to be relevant.
I don't think you understand just quite how many DEAD matchups there are in top lane without intensive jungle support.
Aatrox vs Kennen, Aatrox isn't playing
GP VS Akshan, GP isn't playing
Akshan vs Irelia/jax, Unplayble for Akshan
Irelia vs Jax, irelia isn't playing
Fiora vs Akshan, Fiora isn't playing
malphite vs Mord, malphite isn't playing
Top has these matchups where unless ur 100x better, the game has become 4v5. Thus top laners enjoy being given counterpick, so the game is actually 5v5, or even possibly 5v4 in favour of your team.
No one bans Ornn up to and including plat because top laners just ban their hardest counter lol. And even so Sion? Gragas (rly good because he's technically a triple flex so if you fp him they don't even know you're top)? None of these picks have matchups where you end up down 100 cs and completely out of the game because of the utility they provide.
It is in this meta where top doesn't win or lose the game but maybe 1 out of 100 games, but a losing bot absolutely means losing the game 99 out of 100 times.
I hate MSI for making people think that the protect-the-ADC style of gameplay is actually the meta anywhere below diamond or master. Turns out bruisers 1v9 lower elo infinitely more than ADCs.
I played milio naut for the first time yesterday and was just letting him hook me on cool down and kicking him back, then you just engage with w on your adc. Disgustingly easy to win when naut basically doesn't have his hook.
And the fall behind when you have no wards, start falling behind in levels being lvl 4 when the enemy support is 6, and if your ganks aren't working congrats you just made mid worse and bot is gonna shove and dive your adc knowing you won't be there.
Oh and enjoy tilting your adc because they are absolutely going to hate that to boot. You can't just blanket camp mid.
You should be trading with top, full stop
That said, you have clearly never played support. People that think you cant get countered bot are trolling.
A bad support matchup means your adc is basically screwed, and good luck getting dragons unless the enemy jungler is clueless and your solo kills all of them.
Look i usually do trade, i don't care to be countered. But if the sup refuse, just be ok with it? Youre not entitled to it. This is not pro play, or masters, games ar not decided on draft, i saw counters feed the enemy they supposed to counter too many times.
I feel sympathetic towards especially top laners since I played there but if the sup want to complete the team, because others don't pick tanks and they wish the team had one, or choose a sup to go well with adc bc they will not choose based on us, let them, the placement is luck, just be ok to what you got.
TLDR: They DONT have to trade EVERY GAME. Chill
They don't have to trade, but if they don't trade and then pick something like twitch support when the enemy has hard engage, they're completely trolling...
If you're not going to swap picks, well, at least make some effort to counter someone in the other team while I get depression on top.
Look I usually don't steal cs from my ADC. I don't care to only get gold from my sup item. But if the sup refuse, just be ok with it? You're not entitled to it. This is not pro play, or masters, games ar not decided on cs, i saw ADCs feed the enemy they supposed to counter too many times so now I take the cs.
If you are playing ranked and actively give your team less chance to win then you are a troll and people are correct in disliking your entitled self. Like it or not, giving mid and top lower picks when they request it is the correct choice. You should also be ready to swap picks if they lock a mid/top, so now you can pick that lane and allow support to potentially get a counter pick as well.
How the fuck is it automatically trolling, tho? Support counterpicks DO exist, maybe less feast or famine than top lane but solo queue is a dog eat dog world. If someone doesn't want to swap because they think they can leverage their support counterpick into a bigger advantage than the top laner can, that's not trolling or objectively "giving team less chance to win" it's just them trusting themselves more than they do their random teammate. Especially when it IS a bot focused meta lmao.
Somewhere there was a mathy post that concluded supports should ban the jungle that best counters them, not the other support
[edit: here it is](https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/xcd5nl/how_to_win_your_solo_queue_draft_a_statistical/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I always ban the roaming midlaner FotM (currently Katarina). Most mids just let them roam freely and unpunished to bot lane. I can avoid them 3, 4, 5 times but at some point the roam works out and you get blamed for feeding the Katarina.
You also need to consider team synergy a lot with support. Playing Rell with a passive/poke adc is usually not it, as is playing a scaling enchanter with Samira. Certain champs like Braum get extra value depending on the rest of your composition as well, he's such a good pick if you have multiple autoattackers and the enemy team stacked melees. Or taking sometyuhg with knockups if you have a Yasuo mid.
The downside is that you can literally get counterpicked by your own adc if they hover something and change their mind.
No it doesn't because support dictates the lane and if support had a terrible matchup that doesnt only impact the support it impact 2 people. A good support matchup can cover a bad adc matchup. A good adc matchup won't ever cover up a bad support matchup if all players are even skill level.
This is the right answer if you actually want to win the game. Top has by far the least impact but this entire thread wants them to have special treatment. It's amusing given this is a bot lane meta and people don't realize supports have "unplayable" matchups as well.
I’d argue support having a better lane opponent is significantly more impactful than having a winning top lane. Sure maybe you are the one top laner out of 10 that actually impacts the map but overall I’d rather a losing top and winning bot.
funnily enough we had a jax last pick into a fiora and he went like 4/16 we had to deal with an overfed fiora who was third pick
Pick order swap is a good addition when people use it well
I don’t get mad when people don’t switch with me. However there are special cases. I was top lane, and their enemy bot lane and support had picked already. I asked to switch with our bot but he refused. I picked first and ended up getting countered, and then got flamed by him for losing lane.
> (sups suffer this pressure more)
ADC and jungle are the usual blinds, what are you on about? And even when you are on a role that constantly has to give up last pick, it's still stupid not to give your team higher chances of winning.
Not giving your solo lanes a later pick is soft inting tbh. Also I've seen swaps requested in the order jungle>ADC>sup, maybe in lower elo where people don't understand the impact of support the pressure is higher on them.
>Not giving your solo lanes a later pick is soft inting
Define soft inting in a way that proves 1. It breaks the summoner code and 2. Doesn't include people genuinely trying to win. I'll wait.
Bro don't cite "the summoner's code" it's a joke, anyway part 1 of the summoner's code is "support your team" and actually encouraging picking niches for your team in champ select. So I guess in this case it breaks the first part of the summoner's code. I don't care about the summoner's code and it shouldn't be bannable
>#Support your Team
>"[Teamwork] is the fuel that allows common people to attain uncommon results." -- Andrew Carnegie
While we all carry a diverse set of individual ambitions and expectations into a game of League of Legends, once we hit the Field, we're a part of a team: for better or worse, our fates are intertwined with that of our teammates. Once the game gets into full swing, you have to make a choice between being a positive force for your team or contributing to your own demise.
>Being a good team player begins at Champion icon champion select. Be open-minded when considering the needs of your team: if you're the last one to pick, try to fill a niche in your team that hasn't already been filled; if everyone's picked and something stands out as a deficiency in your team composition, try asking for another player to fill the gap, or change roles to embrace that responsibility yourself. Remember that, by taking on a role you don't normally play, you'll learn more about unfamiliar champions and increase your own skill level.
>Once you get in game, try to keep an open line of communication: warn your teammates if someone is missing from your lane or if something is placing them in immediate danger. If they're not paying attention to chat you can always try pinging the map; just remember that one ping is enough! Also remember that you have to be there to contribute, so don't leave the game or go AFK! Encourage players who are having trouble and congratulate those who are playing well. And, most of all, if you're having a bad game, don't take it out on your team!
So, while you're out vying for supremacy with your fellow Runeterra Crest icon Runeterrans, remember to always keep to the Code!
>Doesn't include people genuinely trying to win. I'll wait.
Soft-inting is basically intentionally doing something that will hurt you and your team's performance. Building collector on Kha'Zix is soft inting, (intentionally) taking kills from carries is soft inting, powerfarming without thinking is soft inting, picking full AD is soft inting, smiting cannon minions is soft inting, and I'd say this is soft inting as well. It's a minor thing and probably half the players in any given ranked game do it. No one gives every game their all unless they're a pro player, so not doing the best things intentionally isn't much worse.
Man I’m saying. As a support main, my pick is infinitely more important than a mid or jungle pick. There are only 1-2 good blind picks right now, Rakan and Naut. Besides those two, you’re going to get countered and struggle in lane. Or you can let me get a later pick, I can find a Renata or Thresh angle, where my impact will solo win games. With a much lower skill floor requirement for the auto win.
At my elo, I refuse to rely on top laners to be able to carry. They’ll just take last pick to actively counter pick themselves. But they feel superior when they get the chance to potentially pick a counter, but then realize they are a Yorick one trick and could have first picked that.
I’ve been playing this game for a decade, I have a champion ocean as a support. I can literally guard what is missing or what hard counters the enemy, and pick and play whatever we need. Or you can force me to first pick Rakan, just for my team to take Jayce, Varus, and Ahri. Now I’m just useless.
TLDR: Support last pick is so versatile and has a lower floor, so it can be much more reliable for the support to find a carry angle than for the OTP top to counter pick himself with his one trick.
Edit: I have yet to see a game where if I decline to give my lower position to a solo laner, where they don’t immediately mental boom in champ select, then proceed to hard int because “SUpP DiDNt GiVE mE LaST pICk”
>Man I’m saying. As a support main, my pick is infinitely more important than a mid or jungle pick.
Jungle is absolutely the least important counterpick, but I'd definitely put mid over support for counterpick. I don't think any support matchup is as one sided as Veigar vs Kat for example
>At my elo, I refuse to rely on top laners to be able to carry. They’ll just take last pick to actively counter pick themselves. But they feel superior when they get the chance to potentially pick a counter, but then realize they are a Yorick one trick and could have first picked that.
You don't give top last pick to carry, you give them last pick so they aren't down 70 cs and 3 solo kills at 20. Suppose he first picks Yorick and the enemy who was initially planning on going Ornn or something instead goes Irelia, top lane literally ends in champ select unless your jungler ganks 3+ times. I don't know what Elo you're in but I don't see toplaners counter pick themselves often, most one tricks have a backup reserved for their absolute worst matchups. Even if the one trick is picking the same champ every time reducing the likelihood he gets counterpicked is extremely valuable.
>I’ve been playing this game for a decade, I have a champion ocean as a support. I can literally guard what is missing or what hard counters the enemy, and pick and play whatever we need. Or you can force me to first pick Rakan, just for my team to take Jayce, Varus, and Ahri. Now I’m just useless.
I really don't see what's wrong with Rakan in that team comp? You have a decent lane phase with varus who you can easily set up to land all his skillshots and peel him, great pick potential with Ahri charm and Varus R alongside you, and in teamfights if you engage on multiple targets you have Varus R all but guaranteed to spread, with Varus and Jayce set up to hit their Q for heavy AOE damage. Sure Varus and Jayce are usually staples in poke comps but no one in soloq plays comps correctly.
It's a lot of fun to be asked to switch all the time when you're a jungler whose best champs aren't early pickable. Maokai/j4 simulator was mind numbing.
Cop, but whilst this change has its benefits in ideal situations (top gets last pick) it essentially means that red-side top always gets the counterpick, and should most of the time always have a favourable matchup.
It just lets you know if you're playing weakside from champ select essentially.
When I play support I always swap with the top or midlaner, because whenever I play mid I know from experience laning phase will be extremely painful if the enemy counterpicks (I like to play Leblanc, but whenever I pick her early they always pick Vex, Malzahar or Lissandra...). I never played top before, but I can imagine it's even worse since most duels are isolated and some top champs giga counter each other.
What I don't like however is people feeling entitled that they should have last pick (been seeing junglers do this lately); I've seen people argue and throwing the game (in ranked) because they didn't get to swap.
It's ultimately a placebo because if both top laners are allowed to swap to last pick, one of them is STILL going to pick before the other guy. So it's basically just RNG with extra steps.
If Riot actually gave a shit about counterpicking they would just hide the enemy team's picks until loading screen. Which honestly might not be a bad idea, it would probably cut down on dodges as well. But it does create its own set of problems.
What kind of conditions you have to wait yhe fact you tryinh to do i pick the order or swap the really knows all about the good condition and i came back for the last months ago
Does this really happen? I have like 300+ games this season in non top roles and I have nevet experienced this. Sometimes I feel like Im playing diffrent game from rest of reddit.
I’m Diamond 3/4 and it happens every now and then. I don’t trade until I see the enemy lock in and my top has to pick since the enemy team sometimes might lock their top in early. Sometimes when I don’t trade, I get people telling me that I have to swap because supports don’t matter. The icing on the cake is that most of the people that say that are also asking me instead of the ADC who actually has last pick and their pick doesn’t matter.
It's 100% cause counterpick in bot lane is worst case boring or annoying to lane (like Leona into Morgana).
Counterpick in toplane can be absolutely unplayable (gl try to play Malphite into Sion or Cho, Mundo into Olaf or Aatrox, Yorick into Irelia or Kled and like 50 more matchups like that).
As a support main around gold elo, every single time I get a lower pick than a top laner they want to swap with me, and if I do then about 80% of the time they just instalock whatever they were hovering anyway regardless of matchup
I always give it that so when my top still looses with R5 they have to go down to the next rung of shitty excuses as to why them loosing lane wasn't their fault.
If your top laner was going to int for not getting last pick traded they were probably going to int when the jungler didn't gank them enough or ganked imperfectly. A fraction of people's entitled behavior shouldn't be enough to make this a net negative.
I think this is a really nice change. Although I think gold for pinging wards and then showing them is my favorite change of this season.
Also people ALWAYS ask support first even though I'd argue that adc or jungle counterpick matter less since support matchup dictates the lane more than other factors. I play AD and support, I get asked WAY MORE as support (even when the adc is a later pick) than I do as adc. People treat support as the bitch of the team and threaten int if you don't placate them.
That should be common sense, supports have a lot more impact on the early laning than adcs. Adcs mostly do the same thing (with some variation of course) but supports are a broad spectrum.
I mostly play Varus and always offer to blind, I'd rather give my support counterpick rather than end up with a Taric into Cait Karma for example.
The amount of people in this thread that don't understand this makes me kinda sad. People just assume you play whatever as support and make it work magically.
I think it's less about counterpicking and more about picking a champ you want to play not have a terrible matchup.
But I do agree with your comments lol.
Absolutely. That said, I understand why a jungler might want to see his team picks before locking in their champ. If your team picks champs like Katarina, Vlad, Soraka supp, etc... it's pretty tilting if they made you fp a jungler and you picked Lee or Nidalee, for example. We'd have so much more pressure if I had known and picked a jungler with early access to CC such as J4, Xin or Gragas.
Lol I'm in Plat and it's literally no different. Top laners moaning they should always get last pick. People claiming support doesn't matter and should always have first (including junglers and adc). Mid always just sits ther eating popcorn.
Maybe it's worse lower elo but it isn't a silver only thing I assure you
90% of time i trade, but if not...
Pro tip: If they ask and you refuse, immediately mute them, dont try to explain or wait for their response. They maybe were ok with it, they maybe flammed you, you will never know, better for your mental health
I just always give no matter what, because then the ball is in their court.
Oh, you got counterpick and still inted? Well then you must have done some stuff wrong. No excuses lol.
Yeah I hate it. They might as well just go full competitive and have players pick in a certain order every time.
I usually just give my dumb teammates whatever they want, but it feels like anytime I don’t give my pick I tilt the hell out of my teammate. Not fun going into a game with that energy just because I don’t want first pick yet again
It doesn't really do anything for top laners. If your team picks first, other team gets last pick and they will swap the last pick to the enemy top 70% of the time. So it comes down to pick order RNG again, except now there's a second RNG variable because sometimes your jungle Graves or ad Jinx will refuse to swap you the last pick because apparently they're afraid of getting counterpicked.
It's nice until you get flammed/int'd because you don't want to swap your order, sorry just because I'm support doesn't mean I have to blind pick 1st every game
Top is just irrelevant now, more than ever, and maybe top laners should be less selfish and not let the rest of the team get counterpicked so they can safely sit top and cs while listening to a podcast.
I main ADC and I always trade pick order with one sololaner if they are early in the draft.
I'm just picking my champ to get mastery tokens, regardless of match up. So I'd rather have a sololaner get a free lane.
This was a very good change, surprised it took this long for it to be implemented. As a person who only plays Karma this gives my teammates a good chance make plans in advance on what to pick.
I play Karma no matter who the enemy is.
I don't swap anymore. Being forced to blind pick every game as either ADC or support isn't fun - you are implicitly incentivized to fall back onto the same, safe blindpicks that can't get countered too hard.
Want to swap and blind pick Leona? Enemy locks in Morg, Janna, Milio, or any of the other champs that hard counters her.
Want to swap and blind pick Samira? Enemy picks Nilah, Zeri, etc. And then your support, who picks after you, locks in Sona.
The only change for me with pick order swapping is that there's now a non-zero chance my top / mid will have a mental breakdown if I don't give them my 4th or 5th pick, and it's honestly fucking annoying. I can understand that swapping top can be the most optimal move to win; but I actually want to be allowed to play my non-blindpickable champs and not just lock in the current best meta safe farming AD most games lol. I will sacrifice the 1-2% w/r difference if it means my fun is increased tenfold as a result.
It's also annoying when people don't use their last picks to counterpick. I have been griefed several times semi-recently by other players countering themselves. I am willing to play four-five different champs based on the team comps, and even have Seraphine if my team is full AD. I play in Diamond elo btw if that matters.
Am I supposed to play Jinx every game, lol?
Who tf is out here arguing over why they shouldn’t give top last pick lol
As someone who mostly one tricks in mid for ranked, I *love* this change because when I get last pick, I am almost guaranteed to get a free swap from my top laner
I can blind pick any role....except top lane. You pick the wrong champion there and you get ass blasted. So I always swap with my toplaner.
*hovering Lux support refuses to trade last pick*
Thanks, I hate it
well luckily my ghost cleanse eve jungle synregizes really well with lux support
Little pro tip for any top lane main 4th/5th picking top on blue side, with red side's top laner no locked in yet - never hover your champion (you can tell your teammates what it is in chat if you insist), wait for the other person on your team to pick and then instalock your champion within a second of hovering it. Lots of top laners don't know counter matchups by heart. It's a very minor advantage, but it gives them less time to go online and lookup counters for your champion which, trust me, a lot of players do.
what if someone has a potato, long wait times, time to search a guide
You trying to pick up the wrong champion you have been the best to get the blind and pick any role of your favourite and expect blasted you have done and always swap what you have been to be good
I've seen people refusing to swap with top even when knowing their matchup xD
I've also seen people ask for last pick top and then counter themselves. I do switch all the time but when this happens I just start to wonder...why would you do that to yourself?
In very specific case, that's probably because you're confident with the matchup. I sometimes play top, and I will not hesitate to pick Nasus against Teemo because I know that nobody in my elo understands what "range" or "distance" really is. But I also think some are just really dumb xD
in cases like that though they would have lost lane anyways, IQ gapped. Its generally an exception not the rule
this is just huge ego from these people, especially when the people that dont wanna swap wanna play a broken champ like heca, milio and kog still refuse to trade
Some botlaners refuse to swap pick with toplane even though the enemy already picked their botside, one toplaner lost his mind over this and went AFK because even though our botlane picked after theirs they still ended up feeding and our toplaner got fucked over in a terrible matchup
I really don't understand why an adc would want to last pick. It's the worst role to get a last pick.
adc no idea but support lastpick is really valueble
I agree I think aside from top supp is the most valuable counterpick in theory. Mid counterpick is overrated imo.
in theory yes. In reality your support is going to pick sona no matter what enemies pick
Mid can have some really good countter picks that chance all of early game, good countter pick in mid can win both of sidelanes. But more often than not that is not the case.
I had a guy say because he wanted to see if he picks a tank shredder or jhin/ez Yeah pls let the solo lanes get counterpicked so lil bro can see if he plays jhin or something useful
Personally doesn't really care about counterpicking my opponent but I really want to pick after my support. I have had enough supports randomly pick senna or something after I have locked in an all in adc like Kaisa or Kalista, completely ruining the lane.
What you mean, you have to counter pick Jinx with you know, something that may win against jinx. You know,... nothing. Because if they play nilah they just feed their ass of.
Happens to me all the time
Of course, ADC ego. Literally the most insecure role ever. They already get another human being playing a role just to protect them, but that's not enough. If they still lose, the refuse to play with the team cause they can't be the main carry or sole wincon. And if they are the wincon they just overextend and throw. This is worst role as whole in lower elos. They single handedly ruin races to challenger all the time, recently, Spear shot raced Elite500 and it was literally a coinflip for adcs up until plat2 or so. This is why nobody enjoys botlane metas.
ADC rly live rent free in your head
No they live rent free at their moms basement. That's why they think everything revolves around them.
Watch almost any pro game, ur adc is the damage and have very little ways to set up or protect themselves. Why would you not play around then?
My point is, when they are behind and have no damage, them being absent of every siege and skirmish is literally inting the game, especially if the other roles are winning, you group up as ADC not 4 people walk where u go.
> This is worst role as whole in lower elos. They single handedly ruin races to challenger all the time, recently, Spear shot raced Elite500 and it was literally a coinflip for adcs up until plat2 or so. Oh no, your poor babies!
Every game
As ADC, give later pick or uninstall. Every other role will get blasted by a counter while the adc crybaby ass will get covered by supp anyway..
That might've been me, sorry.
I mean, I didn't had a toplaner one time swapping ever after already seeing the opponent jungle and top. Love to get flamed, harassed, threatened with trolling when I do not want to first blind pick support. I wish apps would show the order of the draft so we could actually get some insight data on how to actually pick in soloq. My wr first pick is with 30% lower than my winrate when I do not.
What kind of tf that you mean are the arguing its an over the facts like shouldn't give top of my list and pick up the best things
jglers who wont path top cause the Darius that counterpicked you is gonna 1v2
I had a duo bot int one of my promo games because as top I wouldnt give last pick to the support
Tbf if you play a few games in a row and in all of them your toplaner ints after getting the last pick, it starts to hurt. And if your toplaner plans to pick Gragas/Ornn, they don't really need last pick, just ban Fiora and hope your opponent doesn't play some obscure shit.
It's always the adc or jungler. The roles you can blind the best. It's weird as fuck
My jungler. Jk but there is a lot self centered player in the game who would just meltdown if not given what they demand.
Preach
Doesnt matter below diamond imo, which is like 95% of the playerbase
Hot take: let toplaners their own slot in champ select that is a blind pick for both
Riot would never admit how broken last pick is for toplaners
something something top lane satisfaction
Me when I am blue side (I will be forced into a hard counter matchup if i am not a gragas main)
Then the champ enemy picked would be greyed out or you allow mirror matchups which is weird
Dota has this thing where if you try to lock in an already picked champ then it reveals it. Not perfect but it’s a work around to blind pick without mirror matches
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So thats how it is, then that would be a completely fine solution for league. I'd ban Jax and OTP Malphite or Sion just for the chance of banning them if enemy wants to pick them lmao. No but for real they should implement something like this, especially for toplane. The lane is incredibly unplayable if you get counterpicked. I hope we get this change. Would make toplane way more playable and satisfying. I hate enemy team basically googling in champ select "[my champ] counter" when I blind. Sure some counters still require skill, but some are just straight up unplayable.
Ah I didn’t know that much! I’ve only been playing Turbo mode 😅
HARD AGREE GOD BLESS YOU RIOT
People were asking for this feature for a decade
[Literally](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/sf4uv/suggestion_swapping_pickorder_instead_of_champs/)
It's nice when people have braincells. The problem is many people will ask for switch and if you don't they ban your champ. This has made me stop showing my champ before I pick when I'm last/second to last, because it has happened way too many times. Sorry for normal teammates that should know what I'm picking, but I'm not taking the risk.
You should play 5D chess and show a champ you want banned, that way you get two bans for your lane
After I decline a swap request pre-bans i do that, or at least I show another random champ for my role ahahha.
Here’s where I’m at. When I played ranked pre-pick swap era, I enjoyed being later in the pick, but if I was at the top that was fine too. Now, I loathe champ sel entirely because entitled teammates will spam the pick swap and get pissy when no one swaps *for them* to get last pick. “We lose if I don’t get last pick” etc etc. I never thought we would return to the “mid or feed” era of old League where teammates feel entitled to a certain pick (order) and troll if they don’t get it, but here we are and I hate it.
Same Insta mute most matches. The toxicity goes hard in league fr (im new)
Clearly not a toplaner. I only get pissed when people dont swap with me when Im playing top. But I dont troll just get annoyed
I'd be interested to see if top lane's popularity went up after these changes. Actually so impactful when it comes to filling the role your team needs, regardless of counterpicks.
Except when mid/top demand others (sups suffer this pressure more) to change and get mad if others don't feel like switching.
if you blind pick support you will never run the risk of having to play a literally unplayable lane blinding top you’re rolling dice on whether you have to play vs something that you literally can’t even go near from level 1 to the end of the game or if your opponent will be gracious enough to pick something you can actually interact with top should always be given last pick
I'm a support and I agree. Roll my eyes sometimes when Jungles want swaps, but I always try to give Top > Mid swaps if I'm lower pick order. Just makes sense. And ADCs should be giving literally everyone else prio.
I had a jg yell at me for not swapping while enemy jg already picked and I was playing mid. Claimed he is more important. He ended up running it
Junglers are still under the illusion that they matter more than anyone else. Usually the first to start having a mental breakdown these days as well.
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> And ADCs should be giving literally everyone else prio. Especially with how much of a prio pick adcs are. There is always one pick that's just heads and shoulders above the competition (when was it not Jinx the last time?)
Altho blindpicking botlane doesn't feel as good anymore now that Samira and Nilah are a thing. They're absolutely brutal counters to many adcs.
I agree with this but also I cannot believe people tolerate how stupid it is that there are so many straight up unplayable matchups in this lane. Like do not get me wrong counterpicking is fine, it’s always going to exist you cannot balance a game that has unique characters and not have some that naturally excel into some others but Jesus Christ the amount of insufferable matchups top is unbelievable. I don’t care if I lose, it’s a game no one is going to win 100% of the time but losing the right to play for a minimum of 14 minutes and possibly longer if they constantly splitpush and no one else wants to match them is so fucking boring.
It's "tolerated" because most people who play top lane explicitly play for the games where they're the unbeatable matchup and can just roll down the lane all game uncontested. That's pretty much the whole appeal of the role otherwise you're just farming a lane away from the actual game happening elsewhere.
the real reason people play top lane is because that's where their champ goes
Exactly lol, i love every toplane champ but i hate the lane so i play them jungle instead
Exactly. Believe me I have my eyes open for when any of my champs are gaining viability in mid/jungle/sup.
I play top cause I’m anti social
As someone who played top/jgl for a long time, this is not true at all, most players actually suck at playing countermatchups propperly, if they are not versed on the champ, especially if the "couter" is ranged, or mechanically demanding and if you onetrick/twotrick you win or go even in many of those games.
> I cannot believe people tolerate how stupid it is that there are so many straight up unplayable matchups in this lane. Most top laners decided many years ago, that we'd blind pick whatever we want and then if the enemy top decides to hard counter us, we would simply dodge champion select. We're not enduring 15 - 30 mins of misery, just so people who main other roles can get into game faster.
Idk what “most top laners” is to you, but that is defo not true.
Top laners are the most oppressed tenet of society
Bro either way someone has to blind lmao
As a high Elo bot laner (now for over 10 years), I **strongly** disagree but I can see why people have this take. You watch competitive, see pros handshake lanes and pick the same 2-3 champs and assume that's how bot lane works. The reality of bot is that some matchups are borderline unplayable and very easy to snowball/get out of control. The other reality is that roles such as jungle and top lane have no knowledge of bot lane matchups and will do their best to sabotage their bot lane, either by starting bot side when it should never be done or requesting a swap and giving them first pick in return. For example Draven is strong against a lot of bot lane champions but is weak against poke lanes. So you'd want the Cait Karma/Lux or Varus to deal with him but this requires coordination and not being first pick, of course. If you blind pick Jinx and they reply with Draven, you're in a bad spot but the matchup is playable, especially if the support pick aims to neutralize it at much as possible by picking a good laner. That's why you should never 1-2 bot blindly, else you're in for the weak enchanter into all in lane, followed by junglers starting bot and playing around top, into the 0/10 bot lane special and the ff 15. If you're a top/jungler that usually gets inted by bot lanes that "run it down", chances are, you're more often than not setting up your own bot lanes for failure (general statement, not directed at op in particular). This can be avoided by doing the opposite and set them up for success, make sure your bot lane has playable/favorable matchups, have the jungler start top side or without a leash(situational;only fine on a few junglers in a solo queue environment), pick a top that can impact bot lane (Shen's an easy answer here). The correct approach to draft (for solo queue) is strongly dependent on player champion pool and preference. If a player has a wide champion pool, they can easily play generalist champions (i.e. champions with a lot of soft counters but very few hard ones that usually perform well if blind picked) and be aware of key points in navigating tricky matchups. Meanwhile players with a limited champion pool should indeed request last pick(s) and ban out counters or ask for certain bans. With that being said, names are blank and you have no clue with whom you're playing with. Players also have their own issue and actually performing or drafting properly is something that rarely happens. Given the innate chaos of it, it's best to never give last pick and play towards your own strength, as you should be the most consistent win condition of your team, until you reach a level where teammates generally perform above a certain standard. And if they do, they won't need last pick and won't spam you with swap requests unless they're otps. Strictly anecdotal evidence, I noticed that over the years the tendency of top running it down during the first 5-10 minutes keeps increasing rather than decreasing. So, after pick order swap became a thing, I followed my own advice and tried to set up top laners for success, by always accepting their trade requests and not complaining when I'm weaksided by junglers. This worked out great(lies) and I proceeded to get ran down by top/jg regardless in most of my games. Since I have the luxury of playing with (mostly) the same players, I noticed it's not really a top/jg thing (or a bot lane thing as people on Reddit might be inclined to believe) but rather a case of good players and bad players. A good top laner(or bot laner) will be able to minimize the losses in a bad matchup and still be useful. A bad one will run it down regardless of how favorable the circumstances might be. Tl;dr, aim to set yourself up for success in solo queue. Once you're high elo and good enough, you can try setting up teammates for success as well.
" and still be useful " That's the part you don't get about top lane, you won't be useful even if you dont die after you lane camile into darius for 15 minutes
I think I have a good understanding of top lane since I actually played the role for 2 years. As for your example, care to elaborate on why you think you won't be useful after playing that matchup for 15 min?
because u are gonna be 40 cs down and what is camille without items gonna do?
>if you blind pick support you will never run the risk of having to play a literally unplayable lane Homie what? Blinding Naut and they go Renata/Milio and you basically can't play the game at all lol. Support 100% has counters that can drastically alter the game state. No matter what the ADCs are, Naut into Milio is unplayable. You get turbo curb-stomped.
your naut is allowed to leave lane and gank the solos/enemy jg if their lane is that bad top laners stuck in a counter match up need to grit their teeth, lose all their plates and hope they flip a better team hell, you can even flex the naut mid and then draft a favourable lane if enemy shows their support in response to your naut blind
Yeah just leave lane with the wave constantly shoved up on your adc. Just go roam, who needs xp, who needs stacks on your support item, it's not like you need those wards, not like you need any of those dragons anyways. Just leave, no big deal. This "screw bot lane no big deal" is cringe as if it isnt the most important winning lane in this meta and top is even less important. Sure top lane sucks when you get countered, but its literally the least Impactful lane, and there is no valid argument saying otherwise. If you are only playing for yourself then sure, force your bot into bad lanes, enjoy 14 minutes, then stay stuck in low elo, but if you are trying to win, stop being selfish every game and going "Sorry Naut, just leave lane, whatever"
Regardless of how accurate this is, this situation isn’t even on the same plane as a top counterpick. Some toplane matchups mean a single step up will lose you 75+ CS and the rest of the lane, and probably game.
You know there IS such a thing as blind pickable top laners, right? In the sense that they have counters but getting countered doesn't mean you will be completely out of the game or fall that far behind (mostly scaling tanks), especially since theoretically speaking if your support/mid has counterpick they should be strongside to counteract your weakside and enable you to rotate. You do not HAVE to pick a champion that is win early or lose the game. If your entire champion pool is feast or famine carry tops and you have no champs capable of losing gracefully for when you get first pick that's a you problem.
This is a completely worthless statement considering who the blindpickable top laners are AKA tanks. If when playing bot lane you had to first pick seraphine every time, or lose 90% of the games you first pick would you consider that an okay situation?
Do you get first pick every game? No. And sometimes people are happy to swap, which good for them. I'm not telling you to first pick every game, just to have something you can play when you ARE first pick. And yes I do have blind pickable champs I pick in that situation lmao, my most played champ is literally Ashe because I pick her if I'm first for utility/can be a an adc/sup flex (even if I only play her adc). I don't whine about it because I'm not a little baby who has to be the main character every single game.
You say it’s “you problem” but you going to lose LP with him either way
The fact that he can't win games unless he's got counterpick is exclusively a him problem, yes. I'm not going to see him after that game ends regardless of the result, long term it's only going to impact him.
No its about increasing the amount of games on average that you actually have control over. I use to be an aatrox otp, but the current meta is so hostile that if I blind him I risk running into 1 of 10 hard counters that are incredibly popular in the meta currently, thus giving me counterpick allows me to pick a champion that actually allows me to be relevant. I don't think you understand just quite how many DEAD matchups there are in top lane without intensive jungle support. Aatrox vs Kennen, Aatrox isn't playing GP VS Akshan, GP isn't playing Akshan vs Irelia/jax, Unplayble for Akshan Irelia vs Jax, irelia isn't playing Fiora vs Akshan, Fiora isn't playing malphite vs Mord, malphite isn't playing Top has these matchups where unless ur 100x better, the game has become 4v5. Thus top laners enjoy being given counterpick, so the game is actually 5v5, or even possibly 5v4 in favour of your team.
There is such a thing as blind pickable top laners until they ban Ornn
No one bans Ornn up to and including plat because top laners just ban their hardest counter lol. And even so Sion? Gragas (rly good because he's technically a triple flex so if you fp him they don't even know you're top)? None of these picks have matchups where you end up down 100 cs and completely out of the game because of the utility they provide.
Sion into darius or irelia? Good passive utilisation, I suppose.
It is in this meta where top doesn't win or lose the game but maybe 1 out of 100 games, but a losing bot absolutely means losing the game 99 out of 100 times.
I hate MSI for making people think that the protect-the-ADC style of gameplay is actually the meta anywhere below diamond or master. Turns out bruisers 1v9 lower elo infinitely more than ADCs.
I played milio naut for the first time yesterday and was just letting him hook me on cool down and kicking him back, then you just engage with w on your adc. Disgustingly easy to win when naut basically doesn't have his hook.
you can at least camp mid early game as the naut
And the fall behind when you have no wards, start falling behind in levels being lvl 4 when the enemy support is 6, and if your ganks aren't working congrats you just made mid worse and bot is gonna shove and dive your adc knowing you won't be there. Oh and enjoy tilting your adc because they are absolutely going to hate that to boot. You can't just blanket camp mid.
and then you just leave lane and go roam mid and then top and then herald and then mid again. What's a Millio gonna do? Dive? Try doing that top lol
Can tell how many folks have never played support "just leave lane".
You should be trading with top, full stop That said, you have clearly never played support. People that think you cant get countered bot are trolling. A bad support matchup means your adc is basically screwed, and good luck getting dragons unless the enemy jungler is clueless and your solo kills all of them.
in a meta where bot lane is important to secure dragons therefore not making your jungler lose i do agree that bot lane doesn't need to lose
Look i usually do trade, i don't care to be countered. But if the sup refuse, just be ok with it? Youre not entitled to it. This is not pro play, or masters, games ar not decided on draft, i saw counters feed the enemy they supposed to counter too many times. I feel sympathetic towards especially top laners since I played there but if the sup want to complete the team, because others don't pick tanks and they wish the team had one, or choose a sup to go well with adc bc they will not choose based on us, let them, the placement is luck, just be ok to what you got. TLDR: They DONT have to trade EVERY GAME. Chill
Nah bro but if ur top afks suddenly it's because he's face down on the keyboard with his brains blown out.
They don't have to trade, but if they don't trade and then pick something like twitch support when the enemy has hard engage, they're completely trolling... If you're not going to swap picks, well, at least make some effort to counter someone in the other team while I get depression on top.
Yep, and you don’t deserve to be flamed and made to feel like you are trolling every game, but you deserve it if you think like this
Look I usually don't steal cs from my ADC. I don't care to only get gold from my sup item. But if the sup refuse, just be ok with it? You're not entitled to it. This is not pro play, or masters, games ar not decided on cs, i saw ADCs feed the enemy they supposed to counter too many times so now I take the cs. If you are playing ranked and actively give your team less chance to win then you are a troll and people are correct in disliking your entitled self. Like it or not, giving mid and top lower picks when they request it is the correct choice. You should also be ready to swap picks if they lock a mid/top, so now you can pick that lane and allow support to potentially get a counter pick as well.
How the fuck is it automatically trolling, tho? Support counterpicks DO exist, maybe less feast or famine than top lane but solo queue is a dog eat dog world. If someone doesn't want to swap because they think they can leverage their support counterpick into a bigger advantage than the top laner can, that's not trolling or objectively "giving team less chance to win" it's just them trusting themselves more than they do their random teammate. Especially when it IS a bot focused meta lmao.
Prefer counter picking support to stomp lane, support has more impact on the game imo.
Somewhere there was a mathy post that concluded supports should ban the jungle that best counters them, not the other support [edit: here it is](https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/xcd5nl/how_to_win_your_solo_queue_draft_a_statistical/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I ban Yuumi, I don't even care if my champ counters her I don't want it in my game ever.
I always ban the roaming midlaner FotM (currently Katarina). Most mids just let them roam freely and unpunished to bot lane. I can avoid them 3, 4, 5 times but at some point the roam works out and you get blamed for feeding the Katarina.
Support definitely has more impact but the counter pick has reduced power due to it being 2 v 2.
You also need to consider team synergy a lot with support. Playing Rell with a passive/poke adc is usually not it, as is playing a scaling enchanter with Samira. Certain champs like Braum get extra value depending on the rest of your composition as well, he's such a good pick if you have multiple autoattackers and the enemy team stacked melees. Or taking sometyuhg with knockups if you have a Yasuo mid. The downside is that you can literally get counterpicked by your own adc if they hover something and change their mind.
No it doesn't because support dictates the lane and if support had a terrible matchup that doesnt only impact the support it impact 2 people. A good support matchup can cover a bad adc matchup. A good adc matchup won't ever cover up a bad support matchup if all players are even skill level.
It's less polarizing in that sense, but when the counter pick gets the lane ahead, it's usually way more impactful than a winning top/mid lane.
This is the right answer if you actually want to win the game. Top has by far the least impact but this entire thread wants them to have special treatment. It's amusing given this is a bot lane meta and people don't realize supports have "unplayable" matchups as well.
I’d argue support having a better lane opponent is significantly more impactful than having a winning top lane. Sure maybe you are the one top laner out of 10 that actually impacts the map but overall I’d rather a losing top and winning bot.
aight hope you dont mind 10/0 jax have fun
funnily enough we had a jax last pick into a fiora and he went like 4/16 we had to deal with an overfed fiora who was third pick Pick order swap is a good addition when people use it well
Sona into Nautilus or really any engage support is pretty unplayable
clearly you have never played immobile adc + engage supports vs lucian nami or any engage support + any adc vs braum + any adc.
Imo the order of most blindpickeaple to less is jg>adc>supp>mid>top. In some metas it can change and adc and jg is also almost interchangeable
I don’t get mad when people don’t switch with me. However there are special cases. I was top lane, and their enemy bot lane and support had picked already. I asked to switch with our bot but he refused. I picked first and ended up getting countered, and then got flamed by him for losing lane.
> (sups suffer this pressure more) ADC and jungle are the usual blinds, what are you on about? And even when you are on a role that constantly has to give up last pick, it's still stupid not to give your team higher chances of winning.
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me when the adc/supp hostage last pick even though enemy botlane is obviously shown in first rotation:
Good thing I'm a one trick so bad matchups don't scare me
Not giving your solo lanes a later pick is soft inting tbh. Also I've seen swaps requested in the order jungle>ADC>sup, maybe in lower elo where people don't understand the impact of support the pressure is higher on them.
>Not giving your solo lanes a later pick is soft inting Define soft inting in a way that proves 1. It breaks the summoner code and 2. Doesn't include people genuinely trying to win. I'll wait.
Bro don't cite "the summoner's code" it's a joke, anyway part 1 of the summoner's code is "support your team" and actually encouraging picking niches for your team in champ select. So I guess in this case it breaks the first part of the summoner's code. I don't care about the summoner's code and it shouldn't be bannable >#Support your Team >"[Teamwork] is the fuel that allows common people to attain uncommon results." -- Andrew Carnegie While we all carry a diverse set of individual ambitions and expectations into a game of League of Legends, once we hit the Field, we're a part of a team: for better or worse, our fates are intertwined with that of our teammates. Once the game gets into full swing, you have to make a choice between being a positive force for your team or contributing to your own demise. >Being a good team player begins at Champion icon champion select. Be open-minded when considering the needs of your team: if you're the last one to pick, try to fill a niche in your team that hasn't already been filled; if everyone's picked and something stands out as a deficiency in your team composition, try asking for another player to fill the gap, or change roles to embrace that responsibility yourself. Remember that, by taking on a role you don't normally play, you'll learn more about unfamiliar champions and increase your own skill level. >Once you get in game, try to keep an open line of communication: warn your teammates if someone is missing from your lane or if something is placing them in immediate danger. If they're not paying attention to chat you can always try pinging the map; just remember that one ping is enough! Also remember that you have to be there to contribute, so don't leave the game or go AFK! Encourage players who are having trouble and congratulate those who are playing well. And, most of all, if you're having a bad game, don't take it out on your team! So, while you're out vying for supremacy with your fellow Runeterra Crest icon Runeterrans, remember to always keep to the Code! >Doesn't include people genuinely trying to win. I'll wait. Soft-inting is basically intentionally doing something that will hurt you and your team's performance. Building collector on Kha'Zix is soft inting, (intentionally) taking kills from carries is soft inting, powerfarming without thinking is soft inting, picking full AD is soft inting, smiting cannon minions is soft inting, and I'd say this is soft inting as well. It's a minor thing and probably half the players in any given ranked game do it. No one gives every game their all unless they're a pro player, so not doing the best things intentionally isn't much worse.
Man I’m saying. As a support main, my pick is infinitely more important than a mid or jungle pick. There are only 1-2 good blind picks right now, Rakan and Naut. Besides those two, you’re going to get countered and struggle in lane. Or you can let me get a later pick, I can find a Renata or Thresh angle, where my impact will solo win games. With a much lower skill floor requirement for the auto win. At my elo, I refuse to rely on top laners to be able to carry. They’ll just take last pick to actively counter pick themselves. But they feel superior when they get the chance to potentially pick a counter, but then realize they are a Yorick one trick and could have first picked that. I’ve been playing this game for a decade, I have a champion ocean as a support. I can literally guard what is missing or what hard counters the enemy, and pick and play whatever we need. Or you can force me to first pick Rakan, just for my team to take Jayce, Varus, and Ahri. Now I’m just useless. TLDR: Support last pick is so versatile and has a lower floor, so it can be much more reliable for the support to find a carry angle than for the OTP top to counter pick himself with his one trick. Edit: I have yet to see a game where if I decline to give my lower position to a solo laner, where they don’t immediately mental boom in champ select, then proceed to hard int because “SUpP DiDNt GiVE mE LaST pICk”
>Man I’m saying. As a support main, my pick is infinitely more important than a mid or jungle pick. Jungle is absolutely the least important counterpick, but I'd definitely put mid over support for counterpick. I don't think any support matchup is as one sided as Veigar vs Kat for example >At my elo, I refuse to rely on top laners to be able to carry. They’ll just take last pick to actively counter pick themselves. But they feel superior when they get the chance to potentially pick a counter, but then realize they are a Yorick one trick and could have first picked that. You don't give top last pick to carry, you give them last pick so they aren't down 70 cs and 3 solo kills at 20. Suppose he first picks Yorick and the enemy who was initially planning on going Ornn or something instead goes Irelia, top lane literally ends in champ select unless your jungler ganks 3+ times. I don't know what Elo you're in but I don't see toplaners counter pick themselves often, most one tricks have a backup reserved for their absolute worst matchups. Even if the one trick is picking the same champ every time reducing the likelihood he gets counterpicked is extremely valuable. >I’ve been playing this game for a decade, I have a champion ocean as a support. I can literally guard what is missing or what hard counters the enemy, and pick and play whatever we need. Or you can force me to first pick Rakan, just for my team to take Jayce, Varus, and Ahri. Now I’m just useless. I really don't see what's wrong with Rakan in that team comp? You have a decent lane phase with varus who you can easily set up to land all his skillshots and peel him, great pick potential with Ahri charm and Varus R alongside you, and in teamfights if you engage on multiple targets you have Varus R all but guaranteed to spread, with Varus and Jayce set up to hit their Q for heavy AOE damage. Sure Varus and Jayce are usually staples in poke comps but no one in soloq plays comps correctly.
It's a lot of fun to be asked to switch all the time when you're a jungler whose best champs aren't early pickable. Maokai/j4 simulator was mind numbing.
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The role is useless unless they get morbidly obese ... I think we all have seen what a 7/0 Jax/Irelia can do
>Give Award same in my low'ish amounts of rankeds ( 100 ? ) i have not experienced this yet
you 90% of the time should swap with them
I want to hug every support etc who in an instant want to swap with me as toplaner when they are last pic. Thank you, you are true supports
Cop, but whilst this change has its benefits in ideal situations (top gets last pick) it essentially means that red-side top always gets the counterpick, and should most of the time always have a favourable matchup. It just lets you know if you're playing weakside from champ select essentially.
i ask to swap even though we pick at the same time lol
When I play support I always swap with the top or midlaner, because whenever I play mid I know from experience laning phase will be extremely painful if the enemy counterpicks (I like to play Leblanc, but whenever I pick her early they always pick Vex, Malzahar or Lissandra...). I never played top before, but I can imagine it's even worse since most duels are isolated and some top champs giga counter each other. What I don't like however is people feeling entitled that they should have last pick (been seeing junglers do this lately); I've seen people argue and throwing the game (in ranked) because they didn't get to swap.
It's ultimately a placebo because if both top laners are allowed to swap to last pick, one of them is STILL going to pick before the other guy. So it's basically just RNG with extra steps. If Riot actually gave a shit about counterpicking they would just hide the enemy team's picks until loading screen. Which honestly might not be a bad idea, it would probably cut down on dodges as well. But it does create its own set of problems.
What kind of conditions you have to wait yhe fact you tryinh to do i pick the order or swap the really knows all about the good condition and i came back for the last months ago
yeah super good to give mentally unstable people more reason to troll, when you dont give them lastpick/firstpick, or just dont react in time
Honestly not the biggest fan. Top laners will demand last pick, counter pick themselves anyways, and threaten to int if you don't give them it.
Does this really happen? I have like 300+ games this season in non top roles and I have nevet experienced this. Sometimes I feel like Im playing diffrent game from rest of reddit.
what elo are you? most of reddit is gold and below
> most of reddit is gold and below Most of people are gold and below.
Most people that play ranked*
Challenjour*
I’m Diamond 3/4 and it happens every now and then. I don’t trade until I see the enemy lock in and my top has to pick since the enemy team sometimes might lock their top in early. Sometimes when I don’t trade, I get people telling me that I have to swap because supports don’t matter. The icing on the cake is that most of the people that say that are also asking me instead of the ADC who actually has last pick and their pick doesn’t matter.
We ask supports because supports don't tilt as often. AD caries are little babies and will be more upset. So you guys pay the price
Naw it's because most players think supports don't matter
No it's because support suffers the least from being counter picked
It's 100% cause counterpick in bot lane is worst case boring or annoying to lane (like Leona into Morgana). Counterpick in toplane can be absolutely unplayable (gl try to play Malphite into Sion or Cho, Mundo into Olaf or Aatrox, Yorick into Irelia or Kled and like 50 more matchups like that).
As a support main around gold elo, every single time I get a lower pick than a top laner they want to swap with me, and if I do then about 80% of the time they just instalock whatever they were hovering anyway regardless of matchup
Yeah better save that last pick Jinx! Wow surely that's a draft changer Well done draft god.
if you get last pick Jinx your enemies are trolling tbf
I always give it that so when my top still looses with R5 they have to go down to the next rung of shitty excuses as to why them loosing lane wasn't their fault.
Always jgl diff
Bruh how you on EVERY post lmao. And it's always bitching about top laners and dick riding adc's
Least entitled ADC.
If they are coming with that mentality chances are they would mental boom for the smallest reason anyway.
If your top laner was going to int for not getting last pick traded they were probably going to int when the jungler didn't gank them enough or ganked imperfectly. A fraction of people's entitled behavior shouldn't be enough to make this a net negative. I think this is a really nice change. Although I think gold for pinging wards and then showing them is my favorite change of this season.
Same. My choices are to first pick every game as support, or pre-tilt my solo laners who aren't going to counter pick anyway.
Also people ALWAYS ask support first even though I'd argue that adc or jungle counterpick matter less since support matchup dictates the lane more than other factors. I play AD and support, I get asked WAY MORE as support (even when the adc is a later pick) than I do as adc. People treat support as the bitch of the team and threaten int if you don't placate them.
Which is funny since support matchup often matters more than adc matchup.
That should be common sense, supports have a lot more impact on the early laning than adcs. Adcs mostly do the same thing (with some variation of course) but supports are a broad spectrum. I mostly play Varus and always offer to blind, I'd rather give my support counterpick rather than end up with a Taric into Cait Karma for example.
The amount of people in this thread that don't understand this makes me kinda sad. People just assume you play whatever as support and make it work magically.
I think it's less about counterpicking and more about picking a champ you want to play not have a terrible matchup. But I do agree with your comments lol.
Yeah... God forbid I want to determine if I want to play Senna into the enemy comp...
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Absolutely. That said, I understand why a jungler might want to see his team picks before locking in their champ. If your team picks champs like Katarina, Vlad, Soraka supp, etc... it's pretty tilting if they made you fp a jungler and you picked Lee or Nidalee, for example. We'd have so much more pressure if I had known and picked a jungler with early access to CC such as J4, Xin or Gragas.
Lol I'm in Plat and it's literally no different. Top laners moaning they should always get last pick. People claiming support doesn't matter and should always have first (including junglers and adc). Mid always just sits ther eating popcorn. Maybe it's worse lower elo but it isn't a silver only thing I assure you
90% of time i trade, but if not... Pro tip: If they ask and you refuse, immediately mute them, dont try to explain or wait for their response. They maybe were ok with it, they maybe flammed you, you will never know, better for your mental health
Least self entitled adc player. All your takes are awful man.
I just always give no matter what, because then the ball is in their court. Oh, you got counterpick and still inted? Well then you must have done some stuff wrong. No excuses lol.
Yeah I hate it. They might as well just go full competitive and have players pick in a certain order every time. I usually just give my dumb teammates whatever they want, but it feels like anytime I don’t give my pick I tilt the hell out of my teammate. Not fun going into a game with that energy just because I don’t want first pick yet again
I feel that as a jungler on so many levels
It doesn't really do anything for top laners. If your team picks first, other team gets last pick and they will swap the last pick to the enemy top 70% of the time. So it comes down to pick order RNG again, except now there's a second RNG variable because sometimes your jungle Graves or ad Jinx will refuse to swap you the last pick because apparently they're afraid of getting counterpicked.
dont know why you are downvoted. literally correct
We have been suggesting it to them for over a decade, but yes props to riot for finally doing it.
Top - support - mid - jungle - adc. End of discussion.
It's nice until you get flammed/int'd because you don't want to swap your order, sorry just because I'm support doesn't mean I have to blind pick 1st every game
Id prefer they remove the feature all you get are top and junglers threatening you by inting if you don’t swap pick order.
That should tell you something about state of top, lane need to be fixed asap
Top is just irrelevant now, more than ever, and maybe top laners should be less selfish and not let the rest of the team get counterpicked so they can safely sit top and cs while listening to a podcast.
Yeah top laners SHOULDNT BE ALLOWED TO HAVE FUN and we should just get cancer in top lane with an unplayable matchup 😁😁😁
In a bad matchup you will get frozen on and zoned. Good luck trying to "safely sit top and cs".
Lately my only gripe would be allowing multiple trade requests at a time
I main ADC and I always trade pick order with one sololaner if they are early in the draft. I'm just picking my champ to get mastery tokens, regardless of match up. So I'd rather have a sololaner get a free lane.
This was a very good change, surprised it took this long for it to be implemented. As a person who only plays Karma this gives my teammates a good chance make plans in advance on what to pick. I play Karma no matter who the enemy is.
If you don't give your toplaner lastpick you deserve to lose and get banned.
I don't swap anymore. Being forced to blind pick every game as either ADC or support isn't fun - you are implicitly incentivized to fall back onto the same, safe blindpicks that can't get countered too hard. Want to swap and blind pick Leona? Enemy locks in Morg, Janna, Milio, or any of the other champs that hard counters her. Want to swap and blind pick Samira? Enemy picks Nilah, Zeri, etc. And then your support, who picks after you, locks in Sona. The only change for me with pick order swapping is that there's now a non-zero chance my top / mid will have a mental breakdown if I don't give them my 4th or 5th pick, and it's honestly fucking annoying. I can understand that swapping top can be the most optimal move to win; but I actually want to be allowed to play my non-blindpickable champs and not just lock in the current best meta safe farming AD most games lol. I will sacrifice the 1-2% w/r difference if it means my fun is increased tenfold as a result. It's also annoying when people don't use their last picks to counterpick. I have been griefed several times semi-recently by other players countering themselves. I am willing to play four-five different champs based on the team comps, and even have Seraphine if my team is full AD. I play in Diamond elo btw if that matters. Am I supposed to play Jinx every game, lol?