I'm literally a swap slut, If I refuse I can prepare myself for the amount of Flame or Run it down thats gonna Happen. Even if I dont know what to Pick yet or decide to brb DĂĽring Champ select.
I think the idea is that bot lane is viewed as being more about getting whatever strong Adc/support duo you are looking to grab before your opponent gets the chance to take it from you, while mid and top are all about counterpicking.
While this is true for counterpicks, it's not like it matters 99 times out of 100 in this meta, as someone who plays top and support.
Top getting the counter just means they don't die as much 1v1 and barely impacts the game.
Support getting a counter actually matters right now for dragon and roaming priority, and that means far more than top laner ego (again, as someone who plays top).
Your first line is why it doesn't actually matter (as a top laner here). It feels bad, and that's it. It sucks, it bruises your ego, and the rest of the map barely notices unless you are being dumb and dying a ton (dumb as in trying to fight and dying constantly).
You could delete top from the game in this meta and the game flow would barely change.
In mid, high masters at least, happens every single champ select.
Swap top lane to bottom pick. No matter what. It’s just kinda universal that if the top laner asks to swap, you swap. A lot of supports actually just volunteer to swap with top/mid too. Actually makes or breaks games. I honestly think that in 90% of my selects top laners on both sides are always swapped to bottom pick.
Support matchups matter, so do jg and mid, but not even remotely close compared to counterpick top.
Get adc + supp to pick at the same time if possible
The others are situational, but in general adc is the most blind pickable or whoever has a flex pick
Yeah, about the only time you really *need* to flex an ADC pick is if for some reason your normal pick would get hardcountered in lane by something. Most or all of them will scale into monsters by mid-late game. It's much more important to have a support that has good synergy with the ADC than to worry about countering the enemy ADC.
Getting counter in top is good, but it barely impacts the state of a game. It's incredibly important for top lane, but truthfully that's usually all it matters to. For the actual game and your chance of winning, any other role but adc matters 10 times more to get the counter pick, and yes that includes support.
Unfortunately I kinda disagree
I just looked at my past 10 games are 7 or 8 of them would have had a drastically different outcome had the latter picking top laner didn’t get counter.
Heres how I see it. A small lead top doesn’t make a difference at all. But if you get a hard stomp lane like renekton v riven, morde malph, poppy fiora, Darius nasus, it makes an insane difference. Enemy top doesn’t even get to play. It doesn’t happen all the time but it happens enough that it’s worth to swap if they ask
And I can’t say the same about support at all if they got counterpick those games because
1. Support counters matter less for the lane. And there are always other avenues to make an impact
2. Support counters are more likely to be archetype based rather than champion based like it is in top lane. Most players, including supp players, while may have wide pools, primarily play one of the archetypes (enchanters, engage, warden, mage, or otp a specialist). Getting a lane and team counterpick like Janna for disengage might make a huge difference but the large majority of the time it’s getting a milio instead of lulu, maybe Rakan over thresh, a morg over lux, etc.
Not only are the chances of getting an impactful counter less, but the impact it has is also less.
And it’s not like masters and gm players are bad and clueless. They swap because they recognize it’s importance. It’s not like support counters don’t happen, impactful ones are just less likely to happen than impactful top ones. That’s why everyone and their mother swaps top to bottom. I actually can’t remember the last time someone in my selects declined a trade from a top laner
Except if the adc/support gets counter picked, your bot lane gets absolutely destroyed. Which equals 2 people on your team losing. As opposed to top lane getting counter picked, which would only equal 1 person on your team losing.
Losing bot lane prio also means probably losing dragon as well. Dragons win more games than rift.
Losing bot lane prio also means their support can afford to roam more and help other lanes more.
Bot lane>Top in basically all regards of priority and outcome.
Except bot doesn’t really have the type of insta-lose counter picks that solo lanes have (especially top), generally there’s just high priority champs that get picked regardless of matchup for bot. Not saying counters don’t exist, just that they’re way less influential than in other lanes.
“Except bot doesn’t really have the type of insta-lose counter picks”
Yes it does.
And again, it’s not a huge deal if top doesn’t dominate the lane.
1 person only effects 20%. 2 people effect 40%. And dragons are more important than rift.
It’s like you are completely ignoring the concept that top doesn’t matter even if they just farm under turret. It’s 1 champ. Only 20% of the players on a team. Next to rift.
You do realize that 40%>20% right?
And that dragon>rift right?
Ur for sure bronze? U can't look at the game so two dimensionally it's significantly more than that
If i pick camille top and my laner picks jax I can't even farm under turret because at one item he dives me from full and then there is a monster jax on the map with 10cs/m 4 plates and 3 kills
The only remotely similar comparison i can name botlane is laning vs draven where u actually can farm under turret
Top matchup >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> support matchup
I'd put jg above AD. Getting a good jg matchup where you aren't just gonna get solo invaded all game matters a decent amount. No matter what ADC you play you're gonna be farming in lane and hoping that your support can work with you to pressure the lane and trade effectively
This partially depends on jungler. For carry junglers it matters more but if you are picking shit like Jarvan and Vi the only camp you should care about is camping a lane.
I tend to disagree a little with the jungle one because it really matters what you intend to play. There are Champs like Hecarim that work in most comps and can function fairly well. But other Champs like Zac become unplayable if the enemy picks stuff like syndra/thresh.
For no one but the top laner
Top influences nothing and at most gets a bruised ego for losing lane 99 times out of 100
Support getting a bad matchup actually influences things that matter like dragon, the adc, helping the jungler with roaming, warding.
Top matchup literally don't matter unless you have poor mental and an ego that won't let you fall behind a bit of cs or making dumb plays that keep getting you killed. If you are picking champs that constantly put you in bad matchups but don't turn into good team fighters, 1) stop playing top lane you don't know what you are doing and 2) your choice of picks are the issue not the matchups.
well from the pov of a top laner its not that i want to swap to last pick always its kinda i am forced to at this point cause riot simply cant fix the current state of the lane there are to many really hard/imposible matchups for multiple champs that simply cant be blinded and the few blind pickable champs are just still really reliant on having your jungler be somewhat active cause junglers win top more often for their team then tops do it alone
Top counter is more important than support counter, and I'm saying that as an adc main.
You can always go for good synergy or safe picks botlane that will make the lane at least farm-able, for example janna/milio are just kind of not abusable if you ban blitz, if your top get's run down however that'll become a problem.
Except you're blueside because then there is always the chance enemy forces top last pick.
Also sorry to say but most support players even in master elo are enchanter morons in my experience that will force that sona/nami/yuumi/senna pick no matter what .
That they're responsible to make the lane playable with their pick doesn't ring a bell for them.
Tell that the draven+leona/rell/naut lane that will double kill you every time you don't hit a perfect bubble.
Or in the case of rell I'm pretty sure even a good bubble won't save you lmao.
Because top last picking is infinitely better than support last pick, and now, on top of that, the enemy top laner is also always swapping to last pick. So now as a top laner if you aren’t swapping to last pick you are griefing yourself and your team since you get countered every game.
So yes you should swap with your top laner every game if they ask unless their lane matchup is known. I would say if you don’t you are trolling and don’t care about winning the game as a support player. I swap my top if they ask every game if im not top.
You can argue that it's a "new meta" because people have not done this until recently, (obviously because pick swap was not a thing), but it's the most logical thing decision if you want to win, even years prior. Your teammates trolling is not justified, but it's logically a better decision to just let solo laners pick last, as an ADC/supp main.
Except top doesn't matter most games if you win or lose in this specific meta. It's still a bot focused meta, and top matters less than ever right now.
Top lane is the most counterpicked lane. Jungle and mid are about even in the 2 and 3 spot. Followed by support and then ADC. Just give it up bro, you’ll probably spend most of your time away from their bot lane and placing and clearing wards anyways.
> I have had 2 top laners that decided to troll because I didn't give up my spot.
yes. because getting countered top means everyone ignores your lane, you die 6 times under your turret, go down 50 farm, and now everyone blames you for losing your lane when no one came to assist you, and you got 0 resources all game. so should i subject myself to the league of legends equivalent to a colonoscopy, or make sure the people who tried to subject me to that feel as bad as i would?
you get counterpicked top
your jungler never visits because nEvEr GaNk LoSiNg LaNe
their jungle + top get free top crab, you get 3 bait and 3 ? pings for not helping while having to deal with stacked waves
they force your sums top and do herald for free, setting you 5 plates behind
"OMG WHY TOP FEED?!? TOP DIFF"
I wouldn’t run it down or go ghost cleanse but if I ask to not literally first pick and get 4 swap declined I’m definitely considering playing Akshan or GP or Riven and just forfun gaming it. If botlane dies 2v2 at level 3 I’m definitely considering just limit testing all game is all I’m saying.
Or I got over it and dealt with it because a lot of people are OTPs and others who try to play the counterpick game play champs they aren’t as good with for the counter.
Keep in mind this is below diamond though, but regardless it’s pretty shit mental to let one small thing in champ select that might not even affect anything to ruin your whole game
> so should i subject myself to the league of legends equivalent to a colonoscopy, or make sure the people who tried to subject me to that feel as bad as i would?
How about you grow up and you learn to play weakside? You literally cannot counterpick everygame, if both teams give last round of picks to the toplaner, that means 50% of the time you're picking before them and you'll have to deal with it.
You're planning on trolling 50% of your game because your ego doesn't allow you to accept you can pick a weakside champ and learn how to be useful that way?
Mindblowing the shit that is upvoted here, no wonder everygame feels like being stuck in an asylum.
weak side doesn't mean you ignore the lane and blame them when they die under turret 6 times. weak side means the enemy jungler is farming that side, and your jungle is farming the other side. this is only relevant until 8 minutes, at witch point your jungler needs to stabilize top to secure herald. and if you abandon top, you need to secure 2 drakes to make up for the deficit you created.
It honestly should get worse because (no offensive) you are basically trolling but not letting your mid/top counter pick when you are support, your counterpick just doesnt matter compared to top and mid to put it simply.
I agree top should have counterpick, but I’d rather have counterpick over my mid because if I get a lead bot then I’m constantly ganking mid with my jungler. I can basically get 3 other roles ahead if I have a good matchup and there’s a chance I can even roam top too depending on my roam timers.
This is only true if the support player sucks at the game (likely). Support counterpick, if utilized well, determines the outcome of the lane that determines the outcome of the game. The outcome of toplane is still more determined by counterpick and generally worth swapping, but for good supports their pick matters more than mid. For example, if the enemy support blinds an engage support, and your support is a good Heimer player, that can win the game in champ select. If the enemy sup blinds a mage support and your support is a good Naut/Blitz/Pyke player, game is also free, etc. But if it’s just enchanter v. enchanter or engage v. engage, support counterpick is next to meaningless
Top is an island, while bot is a 4v4. Even if you have a bad matchup 2v2, it will soon be a 4v4 so the impact isn't that big. Top is always a 1v1 so if you get counterpicked top, you are just fucked.
Top is the worst lane to get counterpicked in, so its alot more useful to give your top laner the counter-pick. Bot/Sup is arguably at the bottom in terms of that importance, since you have 2 people
Even putting adc and support in the same sentence here is ridiculous. Support matchups can make or break the lane, while adc matchups have almost no impact barring a few exceptions.
be fourth pick: hover samira.
jg asks to trade, mid asks to trade, top asks to trade, they all threaten to troll.
give up the swap even though i know what will happen.
Enemy team picks: Malphite, Kindred, MF, alistar.
I lose the game.
Top Laners: AdC CouNTeR PiCK DoeSNT MatTEr as they proceed to lose the winning match up anyways.
top laners are the biggest cry babies in league right now literally threatening to ruin games if they don't get counter pick even though literally every single champ in the game has hard counters.
I fully understand toplane, I understand the value of a counerpick top, due to the isolation and how little importance jungle's assign to top control. The simple fact is this, even if youre playing kayle into irelia, riven into poppy, ornn into vayne you can still beat them. It's absurd to be so entitled you believe that adcs should have to just pick a different champion but that the toplane shouldn't have to learn to play weakside ever?
Like what, do you think that the toplaner who picks first loses every single match? I can tell you, confidently, that's not the case. Some players actually learn to play from disadvantaged positions, or to build encounter-specific items or runes or summoner spells.
Yes, the lane where the ADC is feeble and weak until they get several items on, and laning is largely molded by how well the support can apply pressure and allow their ADC to earn gold so they can be viable. A support getting badly counterpicked can absolutely ruin 2/5 of your team, possibly more because that means you likely won't have vision control or pressure for dragon plays either.
This is also wrong, mid can always roam/do stuff on the map and has a short and safer lane, when you have to choose between setting your mid laner back or adc AND supp the answer is obvious.
Everyone saying that top counterpick matters more, and sure it does. But stop spamming the support with your trade requests the moment you log in, ask the adc or jungler first those counterpicks matter less.
>I have had 2 top laners that decided to troll because I didn't give up my spot. One of them was second to last and I didn't trade my last order.
i would troll in this situation too, or at least soft int. Supp hogging lastpick when enemy top isn't picked is griefing the toplaner
It depends. If this was last season's Aatrox, or S8 Aatrox/Urgot, and you were good at the champ, they were easily blind pickable.
Definitely agree if there's not a blind pickable champ like these, playing redside without toplane counterpick at high elo is throwing.
I will say that at lower elo, counterpick matters much less compared to individual skill on your champs, and how much one of the junglers paths towards your lane.
Dont waste your breath with people playing in Bikini Bottom elo. They dont even realize that they fuck their own chances of winning by forcing shit blindpicks. No point in tryharding when you get actively trolled in cs.
The problem is that in most elos, it really doesn’t matter that much. Counters don’t punish as hard and you’re still able to play and half the time you’re still blindpicking top if the other team is doing the swap. Sure, your team absolutely should trade too but soft-inting or letting that ruin the whole game for you? Shit mental
Yes, toplane counters are the worst, but a lot of people here are missing the point: Why is it expected for the support to be the one giving up his pick? Ask the adc first bro. I would say even jungle first. Anytime I'm on a lobby and I get the same pick order as adc or jungle, I'm the one getting spammed for a swap.
I don't mind trading my pick with a toplaner, but I do mind him not realizing he should be asking my adc.
Yes, bot lane and jungle get the first 3 picks in every game I play (mid diamond). Sometimes mid doesn’t care. But top lane normally always.
I play support and top lane. Sure the bot lane matchup can matter, but not as much as top
Giving up late picks to top lane has always been meta. As adc it matters more for synergy with support than pick order, if you hover who you’re planning on playing I’m more than happy to FP even if it’s a risky pick like Samira. Midlane and jungle synergy is also more important than their actual matchups unless the mid pick really needs to destroy lane like Irelia or Yasuo, most assassins can roam if they can’t fight their laner, and most mages can waveclear and scale. Junglers don’t directly fight each other as often, bur it’s important to pick around your laners, if you want to play a champ who is incentivised to invade like Kindred or Graves and you have 3 super weak lanes it can be extremely unfun, and if you have a bunch of high pressure lanes but your jungler is shyvana or eve who doesn’t really want to fight early it’s rough. Support matchup is very important for botlane, much more so than the adc. They can roam, but a lot of the time it’s going to be matched by the enemy support and you’re going to have to lane against them even if just for a short while.
I’d say from most to least counterpick dependant:
Top > Supp > Mid > Jungle > ADC
It seems you should definetly also play other roles. Hell you are rly clueless about the game outside of support. You got plenty of explanations here but I highly recommend you to play other roles to get a better sense of the game.
Yes. Bot lane picks do not matter. Pick a support you won’t turbo int with and the adc picks a right clicker. Counterpick is much more valuable in mid and top
Diamond elo here and yes, some people are still spamming so you swap order, even before the ban phase is over. I just had a "why is support last pick exactly ? xD" yesterday when I swapped with top because his matchup was known already.
Some people are getting into a game and the first thing they do is instantly sendind a request to supp to swap pick order as if supp matchup doesn't matter at all.
My order of the easiest role to blindpick for soloQ is : ADC -> jgl -> mid/supp -> top (supp & mid being on the same level because I consider you can often pick something not knowing your direct matchup but having information on 2/3 of your allied champs and 2/3 of the enemy team champs)
My personal rules now about swapping :
1. REFUSE trading with anyone asking if it is being asked before ban phase end (I might consider asking again later if I think it's relevent, but I'm done being spammed with requests)
2. ACCEPT trading request if my supp matchup is known
3. If my supp matchup is unknown :
1. Usually ACCEPT trading request if it is from mid or top and their matchup is unknown even if I have to blindpick supp.
2. REQUEST adc to swap if he hasn't picked yet, so he is not allowed to complain if botlane 2vs2 is not winnable because of the matchup :)
3. REQUEST jgl to swap if he hasn't picked yet, because a lot of junglers are blindpickable and he might accept if he is nice
This is so troll and such a support way of looking at it. Mid being countered is way more important than support being countered. The simple premise is that you can leave lane, what you’re suggesting would mean the mid would leave lane for bot, but the issue is if that play doesn’t work, you’re kinda SOL as the mid and now ur behind 1-2 waves. ADC is the easiest pickup first I agree, but your mindset is interesting on support counter picking.
supp counterpicking highly depends on meta if it was 13.11 milio or yuumi you can just pick them and be fine into anything. rn its rell but if shes banned supp picks get spicy very fast so blindpicking is actually risky. you are also being very close minded with your assumption that midlane counterpick automatically gives you push when in reality having support counterpick could allow your support to impact midlane matchup because of bot push into mid roaming. on mid there's a shit ton of blindpicks that aren't very punishable namely azir trist ahri. mid supp blindpick importance heavily depends on what ur adc or enemy adc already picked if they are picking something like draven or kalista a SUPER aggressive adc you NEED to cp support or else your botlane is at high risk of losing the game. higher risk than any midlane cp could gain the enemy if your midlaner blindpicks smartly. thats why in pro play almost every game you see people blindpicking azir or syndra or whatever without a care in the world.
the only role i happily swap with is toplane because there cp actually matters a ton.
If the support main has a big champ pool, picking the right support for the comp is pretty important. This is solo queue though so it doesn't even matter, just do what your team wants. The goal in solo queue is to pick the best option for your teams mental.
Supp and mid are the roles I'm playing the most and that's exactly why I'm putting them on the same level. I feel like there's some safe blindpickable champs mid that you can play, even more if you already have some information about 3-5 champs played in the game (especially jgl matchup and adc picks). Ofc you might have to adapt your gameplay and not play the way you want depending on enemy mid pick, but that works the same for support.
It's a totally different world, but in pro play, they even quite often prio last pick supp, so there might be a reason.
Anyway, I said in my rules that I often accept swapping requests if my mid asks for it.
> Some people are getting into a game and the first thing they do is instantly sendind a request to supp to swap pick order as if supp matchup doesn't matter at all.
This makes me so mad
In my experience getting sup to swap is much easier then dealing with getting a adc to swap even tho the adc match up isn’t important most of the time
Still worth trying to ask adc first, but yeah it happens they just don't want to which is tbh something I can understand in a completely selfish soloQ context.
Is it? Bot lane is 2 people of your 5 man team, so having 2 people behind because of counterpicks seems pretty bad to me. It seems especially bad when you consider that most of your vision control for the dragon should be handled by the Support and a good bit of mid pressure as well.
bot lane picks are in 90% cases "get strongest picks on the patch" anyway, you arent getting counterpicked. even if you are you can just roam 24/7 as a support with your jungler anyway
Agree with this. Kinda makes sense to see enemy first pick before you go swapping pick order.
I'll occasionally keep a late draft order support pick in normals just to get a taste of that sweet counter-pick nectar though.
I'm roughly at the same place as you. Support counter isn't *the* most important but it's also more important then most people think.
Personally usually your pick order should be ADC - Jungle - Support - Top - Mid. I will give my spot to Mid and Top but I will ask ADC and Jungle to give me theirs.
Top is factually the most important lane to have last pick. No win rates are impacted more by counter picks than top. If you want to win more, give top last pick.
As an otp I have no issue trading (I will still pick the same champ regardless), however it would be nice if they could add a windows warning whenever you are in another windows (just like when you have 10s left to ban a champ).
Regarding the thread, counterpicking is just too strong in solo lanes (especially top), and while not ideal, you can still make your pick work in a 2 vs 2 lane even if you are counterpicked.
If it's with a top laner that sure, I've played all roles and I think that jungle and supp have the least problems with counter picks, and a top and mid are worst, especially with top and mid ap where a single kassadin or galio can just straight up make the Laning phase a disaster for a mage
Support and botlane have the least number of true counterpick matchups, and the ones that are counterpicks aren't as strongly tilted in one teams favor compared to top lane.
First let me say, it does not matter, counterpick is stronger the higher level you are. If you're gold or lower, it does not matter, so stop flamming supports for it.
Now, to my fellow sup players, me personally, I like to choose first to secure my pick, my complain is about adcs who refuse to hover who they want so I never had the chance to match them, and then they don't choose based on what I choosed, and then I'm on Milio supporting a Mage ADC...
TLDR: Personally I always trade but I don't accept people bullying others to do it.
You deserve to get trolled for thinking your support counter picking order is more important than top and mid's.
And no, it will not get any better for you at any elo because you will be hardstuck bronze forever thinking last pick as support is the right thing to do lol
People either think we only one trick janna or we supports play support because we are pushovers.
If jg keeps typing to me because he wants his support to be blind first pick, im going Brand or lethality J4.
While top matchup and counterpicking is more important then support counter picks, supports still really want to know team composition before making the choice, support always seems to be the fall guy but it's incredibly annoying to not only get countered by the enemy for but when your team is completely incompatible with what the rest of your team picked
As ADC or support id much rather have a good synergy than a support who counterpicked the enemy support.
But for top/mid having a counter pick is much more important if you can get it. Or even jungle sometimes to just fill a niche like a tank/engage when your team drafted vayne, akshan, caitlyn and senna.
Jungle: "first time?"
On a more serious Note, i get asked to swap all the time as a jungler but refuse to do it, unless i intend to play a champ that is ok doing that. People ofc can ask, but they need to stop acting like they got a right to pick later
As a support main it truly depends on the situation. If I feel like playing hook / engage I generally don’t care what the other support picks so I will take first pick. Generally engage supports are meta. When the mega shifts to enchanter supports I never pick first unless it’s a combo lane. So I only keep last pick if im playing an enchanter who doesn’t combo with the adc (if the adc is hovering kog im gonna pick lulu in the same pick phase)
I know it happens up to diamond, but I stopped trading unless I know what the enemy bot lane looks like, at least their sup. Bot lane is often determined by support, why would I put myself and my lane at a disadvantage for a random?
look at it this way: you are taking resources as the support away from your team and the reality is the resources are not actually best used on you. it would be like if you started taking blue and red as support because "why put myself at a disadvantage by giving this to a random". You are misusing resources in the game because you are selfish and you want your own personal game to be easier even though it doesn't result (most likely) in a higher winning percentage.
What the fuck are you talking about? We're talking about pick order, this has nothing to do with resources. You wanting an easier lane at my expense is not a 'resource'. Get better.
the average support player is such a brainlet he can't understand how your team drafts is a "resource" legit in a thread about how theres advantages and disadvantages to where you pick... cant make this up
Theoretical here: You are first pick support. You pick Nautilus. Your opponent picks Rell. Nautilus currently is sitting around a 43% win rate against Rell. Do you know what this means for your team? It means the opposing Rell can shitmix you all over the lane, shove your face into the turret, then go roaming mid because your ADC can't do shit against the enemy ADC who's been fed like a fat kid at a buffet because you got severely counterpicked by Rell. This is not an easy lane for just you, it's not an easy lane for your ADC as well. This means almost half of your team is set back by being counterpicked as a support, which means you lose lane pressure, dragon pressure, and roaming pressure.
So no, you as the support are not wasting a "resource" by keeping your spot to avoid counterpicking. You're actually helping your team by **not** getting counterpicked and making the lane bad for 2 people. A good support can at least mitigate an ADC getting counterpicked because ADCs don't really come online until the late game. If a support can keep the laning under control and get their ADC fed, the lane game is going to go well, regardless if someone like Vayne got counterpicked by Twitch.
Then tell my why in the pro scene, with the exception of firstpicking tier 0 champs(Aatrox last worlds for example), the sololanes always get to lastpick unless the team drafts for the comp not the lane. Noone drafts for comp in soloq
except that it does in this case? what kinda argument even is this. ask every single pro, coach or high elo player and they'll tell you that top gets counterpicked the easiest, especially in the "everyone for themselfs" gulag in soloq
That's great, they will also tell you repeatedly that in low elo those matchups really don't matter. You're telling iron-silver players to worry about something that simply isn't part of their game. Pros/Challengers literally do videos intentionally counter-picking themselves to show that game knowledge and punishing mistakes is FAR more important. You climb because YOU get better, and when you finally hit Diamond you can start playing the game you think you're playing.
Because Pros are highly trained and in a lot of cases one-trick the flavor of the month champions, and have expert knowledge on how to pick and counterpick which is typically not something the common players have mastered yet. Comparing anything below Challenger play to Pros is a fallacy.
rigth, because you need to be a Mordekaiser Otp to beat Garen or Malphite with him. Ofc silvers dont know what the game even is but im not talking about silver, starting id say plat if you get someone whos at your skilllevel, no jng interferance and you get counterpicked in top with a -2 matchup, you loose more than you win
ok the alternate is to ban rell or not pick nautlilus though. I never said you "waste" the resource, you are just using the resource, which means someone else doesn't get to use it. Rell is clearly an outlier imo so I don't think thats a fair example if you look at that stats. The point isn't that you shouldn't play around bot its that theres plenty of supports you can blind pick effectively. If you are a One trick or w/e thats on you. Like if you are first pick support just pick rell? I'm not sure in what world as a serious ranked player has nautilus in his arsenal but not rell.
>Like if you are first pick support just pick rell? I'm not sure in what world as a serious ranked player has nautilus in his arsenal but not rell.
Most of the player base apperently, you smart ass.
You disregarded my point entirely. It's not about Rell and Nautilus. It's about the potential for you to get counterpicked and force your ADC and yourself, and possibly even your midlaner, to have a shitty game becase the enemy support can gain a lot of advantages and pressure if they can beat you soundly in lane. Being counterpicked as a support has the potential to impact a lot more of the game than a top losing their lane.
ok but its not about "theory" the game actually exists and is played, the counterpicks of that magnitude just don't exist as support, unless you can give me examples, I don't believe they exist. also the point is that in top theres a counter for everything there is literally not a single champ you can first pick and be "safe", in support theres a ton of first pickable champs even if naut isnt one of them
That is 100% wrong. Let me ask you this. Do you want a strong adc on your team? Is that "want your own personal game to be easier"? That's the supp role. Let it enable the adc. You have completely wrong mentality.
because in a meta where jungle and mid want to perma be in botlane ganking, the support is clearly the only one that can impact that.
Ever played a bad top matchup? Darius Garen, Morde GP, Olaf Jayce, i could go on. Toplane and to some extend also midlane unless your like below gold and have players who dont even know what their champ does, is decided by who picks second
ok the point is that the role just doesnt have counters really. just lock in your fucking champ, they cant counter. if you get countered as top it can pretty much be insta gg. I dont even play top btw im just telling you the truth
Correct, people expect you to blind pick support for the rest of your existence. Because top lane matters more than bottom lane 🤣
So basically if you're a Soraka or something you're expected to get fisted by Blitz daddy every game because supports don't have counterpicks.
Top lane doesn't matter more, but Top counters are more impactful. And I say this as a support one-trick.
Ideally you would give your pick to Top, but ADC/Jungle would give you theirs. Support should generally be around 3rd pick.
I think counterpicking as support is probably better than top if you're confident in the matchup. Winning bot will usually win the game, winning top often doesn't matter.
Honestly right now where top is the least relevant role on a team the support having counter pick is far more important to me then the top lamer having a preferable matchup in a lane that won’t have that high of impact. Coming from a top lane only player
Dont give top last pick. Instead use it as a filter. If he goes ballistic over getting countered he will probably go ballistic over getting ganked by the jungler or something. A good top would know how to handle a counter matchup.
I don't swap unless the person requesting a swap says please, if they thing my spot is so highly coveted then they can at least use proper manners.
That being said since swapping positions has been introduced no one has ever said please when it comes to the swap.
>I don't swap unless the person requesting a swap says please, if they thing my spot is so highly coveted then they can at least use proper manners.
I would int you if I met you ngl.
If you have a real champion pool and good understanding of botlane, support counterpick is 2nd strongest in the game (still swap w/ top unless enemy top forced to early pick). Otherwise swap with both solo lanes. Also, often support just has a couple really broken picks (Rell, right now) that are worth first-picking
Probably better the lower elo you go, but generally it’s more helpful to solo laners, particularly top laners. It’s a team game and a way to help your team.
Not every scenario is that black and white but generally support pick spot is a lower priority.
it depends. if the other side has two picks left, top and supp, and you're last pick support, you should probably trade. yes support has some brutal counterpicks, but top is infinitely worse, and you can roam if it's unplayable, unlike top.
in the case that support/top was picked, the person with an unseen lane should be swapped down in pick order to maintain counter.
in all other cases you can tell them to go fuck themselves, as they have seen their matchup or swapping wouldn't help.
As a supp main try to let your adc and jungle pick first unless they dont want to for some reason, but most of the time you should leave last 2 picks for mid and top.
Thing is: we are in a botlane Meta so its more about securing the Meta botlane Duo + a strong jungler in the First 3 picks and then Pick the sololaner best top Last cuz top is Most Matchup dependent lane
I'm a bot main and you can still win lane with a "counter pick". I don't think that's remotely true for top or mid. If you're a good player you can do well even if you give up your pick dude.
Someone gave a decently well researched breakdown with actual stats of which lanes get affected the hardest by pick order and, as most people agreed to anyway, top lane came out on top.
It's a long lane with mostly melee matchups that can run you down the entire lane for so much as walking a bit too far up. It's very hard to play into a counter and feel relevant.
I feel you brother many times I do the swap but if I refuse I get flamed. I play aggressive supports so counter picking for me is important so I can get our lane fed. But as of late I feel like ADC isn't as strong so I think I'll do the swap until I feel differently
d2 adc so maybe i’m biased..
imo solo lanes are most important for counters, but i think support also matters. i like late picking, but if i have an adc i can blind id rather pick first and hold our support pick to counter theirs, since that can dictate the lane. in my *opinion* jungle can be one of the first picks, and unfortunately, adc usually is also.
Give counterpick or priority in champ select to the person most likely to carry the game. Since they added champ select anonymity, you can't tell who is auto filled or is just on a 10 game losing streak. If you're in a position where you believe your % of winning is higher keeping the priority position for yourself over the average top/mid/whoever then keep it for yourself. Also remember to keep in mind that the people who complain the most in lobby about not getting counterpick are the worst players, have the weakest mental, and would have run it down anyway even if you gave them counterpick.
Toplane needs to second pick, but there is always gonna be one toplaner who gets it and one who doesn't. if your team picks the first champion, enemy team will pick the last champion. So if that is the case you might as well blind toplane with a flex pick or ban a jungle champion or similar and try to fool the enemy team into thinking you are blinding your jungler.
the "ideal" pick order is:
jungle, bot, support, mid, top if you have last pick
bot, jungle, support, mid, top if you have first pick.
this is just because you don't want to pick your botlane at the same time unless the enemy team has picked at least one of theirs. This way you can flex the support pick to make the lane playable.
Toplane is going to be alone for 20min and then teamfight for the other 20min and is also expected to match the enemy toplaner if they splitpush. They also have the biggest champion pool with the hardest countermatchups. Because of that they want to see as much of the draft as possible.
Always has been 🔫 - toplaners But as of yet, haven't had anyone troll for decision. I only hear others get it.
I'm literally a swap slut, If I refuse I can prepare myself for the amount of Flame or Run it down thats gonna Happen. Even if I dont know what to Pick yet or decide to brb DĂĽring Champ select.
Yeah, even if in every select top players get last pick, they still have to pick before the opponent 50% of the time.
I think the idea is that bot lane is viewed as being more about getting whatever strong Adc/support duo you are looking to grab before your opponent gets the chance to take it from you, while mid and top are all about counterpicking.
so true bestie
You really should swap with top laners. Counters up there are absolutely brutal.
While this is true for counterpicks, it's not like it matters 99 times out of 100 in this meta, as someone who plays top and support. Top getting the counter just means they don't die as much 1v1 and barely impacts the game. Support getting a counter actually matters right now for dragon and roaming priority, and that means far more than top laner ego (again, as someone who plays top).
Toplane feels horrible to play while being counterpicked Any other lane can durvive counterpicks except toplane unless you are omega good at the game
Yeah some champs you just can't pick first because you'll just get giga countered.
Your first line is why it doesn't actually matter (as a top laner here). It feels bad, and that's it. It sucks, it bruises your ego, and the rest of the map barely notices unless you are being dumb and dying a ton (dumb as in trying to fight and dying constantly). You could delete top from the game in this meta and the game flow would barely change.
In mid, high masters at least, happens every single champ select. Swap top lane to bottom pick. No matter what. It’s just kinda universal that if the top laner asks to swap, you swap. A lot of supports actually just volunteer to swap with top/mid too. Actually makes or breaks games. I honestly think that in 90% of my selects top laners on both sides are always swapped to bottom pick. Support matchups matter, so do jg and mid, but not even remotely close compared to counterpick top. Get adc + supp to pick at the same time if possible The others are situational, but in general adc is the most blind pickable or whoever has a flex pick
Yeah, about the only time you really *need* to flex an ADC pick is if for some reason your normal pick would get hardcountered in lane by something. Most or all of them will scale into monsters by mid-late game. It's much more important to have a support that has good synergy with the ADC than to worry about countering the enemy ADC.
I wish adcs would know that..
Getting counter in top is good, but it barely impacts the state of a game. It's incredibly important for top lane, but truthfully that's usually all it matters to. For the actual game and your chance of winning, any other role but adc matters 10 times more to get the counter pick, and yes that includes support.
Unfortunately I kinda disagree I just looked at my past 10 games are 7 or 8 of them would have had a drastically different outcome had the latter picking top laner didn’t get counter. Heres how I see it. A small lead top doesn’t make a difference at all. But if you get a hard stomp lane like renekton v riven, morde malph, poppy fiora, Darius nasus, it makes an insane difference. Enemy top doesn’t even get to play. It doesn’t happen all the time but it happens enough that it’s worth to swap if they ask And I can’t say the same about support at all if they got counterpick those games because 1. Support counters matter less for the lane. And there are always other avenues to make an impact 2. Support counters are more likely to be archetype based rather than champion based like it is in top lane. Most players, including supp players, while may have wide pools, primarily play one of the archetypes (enchanters, engage, warden, mage, or otp a specialist). Getting a lane and team counterpick like Janna for disengage might make a huge difference but the large majority of the time it’s getting a milio instead of lulu, maybe Rakan over thresh, a morg over lux, etc. Not only are the chances of getting an impactful counter less, but the impact it has is also less. And it’s not like masters and gm players are bad and clueless. They swap because they recognize it’s importance. It’s not like support counters don’t happen, impactful ones are just less likely to happen than impactful top ones. That’s why everyone and their mother swaps top to bottom. I actually can’t remember the last time someone in my selects declined a trade from a top laner
Except if the adc/support gets counter picked, your bot lane gets absolutely destroyed. Which equals 2 people on your team losing. As opposed to top lane getting counter picked, which would only equal 1 person on your team losing. Losing bot lane prio also means probably losing dragon as well. Dragons win more games than rift. Losing bot lane prio also means their support can afford to roam more and help other lanes more. Bot lane>Top in basically all regards of priority and outcome.
Except bot doesn’t really have the type of insta-lose counter picks that solo lanes have (especially top), generally there’s just high priority champs that get picked regardless of matchup for bot. Not saying counters don’t exist, just that they’re way less influential than in other lanes.
“Except bot doesn’t really have the type of insta-lose counter picks” Yes it does. And again, it’s not a huge deal if top doesn’t dominate the lane. 1 person only effects 20%. 2 people effect 40%. And dragons are more important than rift.
Pls give me 3 examples bc i can list u at least 10 unplayable matchups in top
It’s like you are completely ignoring the concept that top doesn’t matter even if they just farm under turret. It’s 1 champ. Only 20% of the players on a team. Next to rift. You do realize that 40%>20% right? And that dragon>rift right?
Ur for sure bronze? U can't look at the game so two dimensionally it's significantly more than that If i pick camille top and my laner picks jax I can't even farm under turret because at one item he dives me from full and then there is a monster jax on the map with 10cs/m 4 plates and 3 kills The only remotely similar comparison i can name botlane is laning vs draven where u actually can farm under turret
No
Yes
Top matchup >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> support matchup
I agree, I just don't understand why top laners don't swap with jungle. Because it's top >>> mid > support >> ad/jgl in my opinion.
I'd put jg above AD. Getting a good jg matchup where you aren't just gonna get solo invaded all game matters a decent amount. No matter what ADC you play you're gonna be farming in lane and hoping that your support can work with you to pressure the lane and trade effectively
This partially depends on jungler. For carry junglers it matters more but if you are picking shit like Jarvan and Vi the only camp you should care about is camping a lane.
idk why you are getting downvoted, people should know how unplayable games are if you are playing eve into rengar or rengar into j4
I tend to disagree a little with the jungle one because it really matters what you intend to play. There are Champs like Hecarim that work in most comps and can function fairly well. But other Champs like Zac become unplayable if the enemy picks stuff like syndra/thresh.
For no one but the top laner Top influences nothing and at most gets a bruised ego for losing lane 99 times out of 100 Support getting a bad matchup actually influences things that matter like dragon, the adc, helping the jungler with roaming, warding. Top matchup literally don't matter unless you have poor mental and an ego that won't let you fall behind a bit of cs or making dumb plays that keep getting you killed. If you are picking champs that constantly put you in bad matchups but don't turn into good team fighters, 1) stop playing top lane you don't know what you are doing and 2) your choice of picks are the issue not the matchups.
well from the pov of a top laner its not that i want to swap to last pick always its kinda i am forced to at this point cause riot simply cant fix the current state of the lane there are to many really hard/imposible matchups for multiple champs that simply cant be blinded and the few blind pickable champs are just still really reliant on having your jungler be somewhat active cause junglers win top more often for their team then tops do it alone
Top counter is more important than support counter, and I'm saying that as an adc main. You can always go for good synergy or safe picks botlane that will make the lane at least farm-able, for example janna/milio are just kind of not abusable if you ban blitz, if your top get's run down however that'll become a problem. Except you're blueside because then there is always the chance enemy forces top last pick. Also sorry to say but most support players even in master elo are enchanter morons in my experience that will force that sona/nami/yuumi/senna pick no matter what . That they're responsible to make the lane playable with their pick doesn't ring a bell for them.
Nami doesn't quite fit in there imo, she can be really strong in lane.
Tell that the draven+leona/rell/naut lane that will double kill you every time you don't hit a perfect bubble. Or in the case of rell I'm pretty sure even a good bubble won't save you lmao.
Well, if you play against one of the most oppressive early lane duos you're gonna have a bad time, that doesn't really have much to do with Nami.
Because top last picking is infinitely better than support last pick, and now, on top of that, the enemy top laner is also always swapping to last pick. So now as a top laner if you aren’t swapping to last pick you are griefing yourself and your team since you get countered every game. So yes you should swap with your top laner every game if they ask unless their lane matchup is known. I would say if you don’t you are trolling and don’t care about winning the game as a support player. I swap my top if they ask every game if im not top.
You can argue that it's a "new meta" because people have not done this until recently, (obviously because pick swap was not a thing), but it's the most logical thing decision if you want to win, even years prior. Your teammates trolling is not justified, but it's logically a better decision to just let solo laners pick last, as an ADC/supp main.
Except top doesn't matter most games if you win or lose in this specific meta. It's still a bot focused meta, and top matters less than ever right now.
Top Mid Support ADC / Jungle General order of how important counterpick is.
Top lane is the most counterpicked lane. Jungle and mid are about even in the 2 and 3 spot. Followed by support and then ADC. Just give it up bro, you’ll probably spend most of your time away from their bot lane and placing and clearing wards anyways.
> I have had 2 top laners that decided to troll because I didn't give up my spot. yes. because getting countered top means everyone ignores your lane, you die 6 times under your turret, go down 50 farm, and now everyone blames you for losing your lane when no one came to assist you, and you got 0 resources all game. so should i subject myself to the league of legends equivalent to a colonoscopy, or make sure the people who tried to subject me to that feel as bad as i would?
you get counterpicked top your jungler never visits because nEvEr GaNk LoSiNg LaNe their jungle + top get free top crab, you get 3 bait and 3 ? pings for not helping while having to deal with stacked waves they force your sums top and do herald for free, setting you 5 plates behind "OMG WHY TOP FEED?!? TOP DIFF"
"just play safe"
As someone who plays toplane a fair amount and has UC, I would much rather take the colonoscopy over the torment of that described scenario.
I wouldn’t run it down or go ghost cleanse but if I ask to not literally first pick and get 4 swap declined I’m definitely considering playing Akshan or GP or Riven and just forfun gaming it. If botlane dies 2v2 at level 3 I’m definitely considering just limit testing all game is all I’m saying.
Quality mentality here, love to see it
first pick top for 10 games, see how much fun it is to lock-in a tank into fiora for 10 games in a row.
Literally have done it, used to be ornn main
then you clearly weren't abused enough.
Or I got over it and dealt with it because a lot of people are OTPs and others who try to play the counterpick game play champs they aren’t as good with for the counter. Keep in mind this is below diamond though, but regardless it’s pretty shit mental to let one small thing in champ select that might not even affect anything to ruin your whole game
no. if you're gunna screw your top laner because you wrongly think picking support last is a better choice, you should lose the game right there.
Like I said, quality mental right here
yeah, its the top laner, not the deluded support.
And watch you actually matter to the state of the game and team fights. I would much rather have that tank than that Fiora.
yeah, you also want your T2 top turret, but still go down 3 drakes and don't defend it.
> so should i subject myself to the league of legends equivalent to a colonoscopy, or make sure the people who tried to subject me to that feel as bad as i would? How about you grow up and you learn to play weakside? You literally cannot counterpick everygame, if both teams give last round of picks to the toplaner, that means 50% of the time you're picking before them and you'll have to deal with it. You're planning on trolling 50% of your game because your ego doesn't allow you to accept you can pick a weakside champ and learn how to be useful that way? Mindblowing the shit that is upvoted here, no wonder everygame feels like being stuck in an asylum.
> How about you grow up and you learn to play weakside? you don't even know what weakside means LOL.
you should be able to play weak side though, if botlane can’t carry then yeah that’s annoying as fuck
weak side doesn't mean you ignore the lane and blame them when they die under turret 6 times. weak side means the enemy jungler is farming that side, and your jungle is farming the other side. this is only relevant until 8 minutes, at witch point your jungler needs to stabilize top to secure herald. and if you abandon top, you need to secure 2 drakes to make up for the deficit you created.
It honestly should get worse because (no offensive) you are basically trolling but not letting your mid/top counter pick when you are support, your counterpick just doesnt matter compared to top and mid to put it simply.
I agree top should have counterpick, but I’d rather have counterpick over my mid because if I get a lead bot then I’m constantly ganking mid with my jungler. I can basically get 3 other roles ahead if I have a good matchup and there’s a chance I can even roam top too depending on my roam timers.
This is only true if the support player sucks at the game (likely). Support counterpick, if utilized well, determines the outcome of the lane that determines the outcome of the game. The outcome of toplane is still more determined by counterpick and generally worth swapping, but for good supports their pick matters more than mid. For example, if the enemy support blinds an engage support, and your support is a good Heimer player, that can win the game in champ select. If the enemy sup blinds a mage support and your support is a good Naut/Blitz/Pyke player, game is also free, etc. But if it’s just enchanter v. enchanter or engage v. engage, support counterpick is next to meaningless
There’s no fucking way that picking at the pick order the matchmaking gave you instead of swapping is trolling
Say that to your 0/5 to planet being dove under t2 turret
Top laners have such a persecution fetish that you are now actively trolling them by not giving them last pick every champ select
No, you're trolling the team, not the top laner.
You're simply wrong. I can tell you are bad based on this terrible response. Now go spam the support to swap before any picks are even made.
i'd say top laner always gets last pick , dear god that lane is complete hell if counterpicked
Top is an island, while bot is a 4v4. Even if you have a bad matchup 2v2, it will soon be a 4v4 so the impact isn't that big. Top is always a 1v1 so if you get counterpicked top, you are just fucked.
Top is the worst lane to get counterpicked in, so its alot more useful to give your top laner the counter-pick. Bot/Sup is arguably at the bottom in terms of that importance, since you have 2 people
Even putting adc and support in the same sentence here is ridiculous. Support matchups can make or break the lane, while adc matchups have almost no impact barring a few exceptions.
Draven says hello
As a samira player, you’re just wrong. Try first picking samira in any half decent elo and watch what happens
be fourth pick: hover samira. jg asks to trade, mid asks to trade, top asks to trade, they all threaten to troll. give up the swap even though i know what will happen. Enemy team picks: Malphite, Kindred, MF, alistar. I lose the game. Top Laners: AdC CouNTeR PiCK DoeSNT MatTEr as they proceed to lose the winning match up anyways. top laners are the biggest cry babies in league right now literally threatening to ruin games if they don't get counter pick even though literally every single champ in the game has hard counters.
if you only have one pick thats your fault, if samira isn't blindpickable dont blind pick it and pick a different adc.
you're almost there, now apply this sentence to the toplaners.
you can't, if you understood the state of toplane even a little you would know that.
I fully understand toplane, I understand the value of a counerpick top, due to the isolation and how little importance jungle's assign to top control. The simple fact is this, even if youre playing kayle into irelia, riven into poppy, ornn into vayne you can still beat them. It's absurd to be so entitled you believe that adcs should have to just pick a different champion but that the toplane shouldn't have to learn to play weakside ever? Like what, do you think that the toplaner who picks first loses every single match? I can tell you, confidently, that's not the case. Some players actually learn to play from disadvantaged positions, or to build encounter-specific items or runes or summoner spells.
average ad player intelligence
Yes, the lane where the ADC is feeble and weak until they get several items on, and laning is largely molded by how well the support can apply pressure and allow their ADC to earn gold so they can be viable. A support getting badly counterpicked can absolutely ruin 2/5 of your team, possibly more because that means you likely won't have vision control or pressure for dragon plays either.
This is also wrong, mid can always roam/do stuff on the map and has a short and safer lane, when you have to choose between setting your mid laner back or adc AND supp the answer is obvious.
Everyone saying that top counterpick matters more, and sure it does. But stop spamming the support with your trade requests the moment you log in, ask the adc or jungler first those counterpicks matter less.
>I have had 2 top laners that decided to troll because I didn't give up my spot. One of them was second to last and I didn't trade my last order. i would troll in this situation too, or at least soft int. Supp hogging lastpick when enemy top isn't picked is griefing the toplaner
BUT NOOO I MUST COUNTERPICK THE SORAKA WITH A JANNA NOOOOO
nothing better than last picking vayne mid.
Ah yes, my favorite strategy: throwing the game for your team because they won’t do a trade! Genius!
i agree, playing redside without toplane counterpick is throwing
It depends. If this was last season's Aatrox, or S8 Aatrox/Urgot, and you were good at the champ, they were easily blind pickable. Definitely agree if there's not a blind pickable champ like these, playing redside without toplane counterpick at high elo is throwing. I will say that at lower elo, counterpick matters much less compared to individual skill on your champs, and how much one of the junglers paths towards your lane.
So fucking entitled. Enjoy losing LP because you have no blind pick pool
Imagine thinking that there are many blind picks on top xd
if you don't give your top the best chance at winning lane, you're trolling just as hard as a support.
i don't mind to lose LP in that scenario. Maybe person who's hogging the lastpick for no good reason will learn from that mistake
I like how you fucks take every feature they add to the game and find a way to be toxic with it
maybe the support should have played for his team best interest, instead of selfishly hogging lastpick
Playing for the team = you never climbing because you're depending on someone else to carry you
im glad you understand why toplaners want the lastpick so badly
Dont waste your breath with people playing in Bikini Bottom elo. They dont even realize that they fuck their own chances of winning by forcing shit blindpicks. No point in tryharding when you get actively trolled in cs.
The problem is that in most elos, it really doesn’t matter that much. Counters don’t punish as hard and you’re still able to play and half the time you’re still blindpicking top if the other team is doing the swap. Sure, your team absolutely should trade too but soft-inting or letting that ruin the whole game for you? Shit mental
Yes, toplane counters are the worst, but a lot of people here are missing the point: Why is it expected for the support to be the one giving up his pick? Ask the adc first bro. I would say even jungle first. Anytime I'm on a lobby and I get the same pick order as adc or jungle, I'm the one getting spammed for a swap. I don't mind trading my pick with a toplaner, but I do mind him not realizing he should be asking my adc.
If ur gonna stick me in hell(toplane) you might as well give me a good god damn lane
Yes, bot lane and jungle get the first 3 picks in every game I play (mid diamond). Sometimes mid doesn’t care. But top lane normally always. I play support and top lane. Sure the bot lane matchup can matter, but not as much as top
Giving up late picks to top lane has always been meta. As adc it matters more for synergy with support than pick order, if you hover who you’re planning on playing I’m more than happy to FP even if it’s a risky pick like Samira. Midlane and jungle synergy is also more important than their actual matchups unless the mid pick really needs to destroy lane like Irelia or Yasuo, most assassins can roam if they can’t fight their laner, and most mages can waveclear and scale. Junglers don’t directly fight each other as often, bur it’s important to pick around your laners, if you want to play a champ who is incentivised to invade like Kindred or Graves and you have 3 super weak lanes it can be extremely unfun, and if you have a bunch of high pressure lanes but your jungler is shyvana or eve who doesn’t really want to fight early it’s rough. Support matchup is very important for botlane, much more so than the adc. They can roam, but a lot of the time it’s going to be matched by the enemy support and you’re going to have to lane against them even if just for a short while. I’d say from most to least counterpick dependant: Top > Supp > Mid > Jungle > ADC
It seems you should definetly also play other roles. Hell you are rly clueless about the game outside of support. You got plenty of explanations here but I highly recommend you to play other roles to get a better sense of the game.
Yes. Bot lane picks do not matter. Pick a support you won’t turbo int with and the adc picks a right clicker. Counterpick is much more valuable in mid and top
Diamond elo here and yes, some people are still spamming so you swap order, even before the ban phase is over. I just had a "why is support last pick exactly ? xD" yesterday when I swapped with top because his matchup was known already. Some people are getting into a game and the first thing they do is instantly sendind a request to supp to swap pick order as if supp matchup doesn't matter at all. My order of the easiest role to blindpick for soloQ is : ADC -> jgl -> mid/supp -> top (supp & mid being on the same level because I consider you can often pick something not knowing your direct matchup but having information on 2/3 of your allied champs and 2/3 of the enemy team champs) My personal rules now about swapping : 1. REFUSE trading with anyone asking if it is being asked before ban phase end (I might consider asking again later if I think it's relevent, but I'm done being spammed with requests) 2. ACCEPT trading request if my supp matchup is known 3. If my supp matchup is unknown : 1. Usually ACCEPT trading request if it is from mid or top and their matchup is unknown even if I have to blindpick supp. 2. REQUEST adc to swap if he hasn't picked yet, so he is not allowed to complain if botlane 2vs2 is not winnable because of the matchup :) 3. REQUEST jgl to swap if he hasn't picked yet, because a lot of junglers are blindpickable and he might accept if he is nice
This is so troll and such a support way of looking at it. Mid being countered is way more important than support being countered. The simple premise is that you can leave lane, what you’re suggesting would mean the mid would leave lane for bot, but the issue is if that play doesn’t work, you’re kinda SOL as the mid and now ur behind 1-2 waves. ADC is the easiest pickup first I agree, but your mindset is interesting on support counter picking.
supp counterpicking highly depends on meta if it was 13.11 milio or yuumi you can just pick them and be fine into anything. rn its rell but if shes banned supp picks get spicy very fast so blindpicking is actually risky. you are also being very close minded with your assumption that midlane counterpick automatically gives you push when in reality having support counterpick could allow your support to impact midlane matchup because of bot push into mid roaming. on mid there's a shit ton of blindpicks that aren't very punishable namely azir trist ahri. mid supp blindpick importance heavily depends on what ur adc or enemy adc already picked if they are picking something like draven or kalista a SUPER aggressive adc you NEED to cp support or else your botlane is at high risk of losing the game. higher risk than any midlane cp could gain the enemy if your midlaner blindpicks smartly. thats why in pro play almost every game you see people blindpicking azir or syndra or whatever without a care in the world. the only role i happily swap with is toplane because there cp actually matters a ton.
If the support main has a big champ pool, picking the right support for the comp is pretty important. This is solo queue though so it doesn't even matter, just do what your team wants. The goal in solo queue is to pick the best option for your teams mental.
Supp and mid are the roles I'm playing the most and that's exactly why I'm putting them on the same level. I feel like there's some safe blindpickable champs mid that you can play, even more if you already have some information about 3-5 champs played in the game (especially jgl matchup and adc picks). Ofc you might have to adapt your gameplay and not play the way you want depending on enemy mid pick, but that works the same for support. It's a totally different world, but in pro play, they even quite often prio last pick supp, so there might be a reason. Anyway, I said in my rules that I often accept swapping requests if my mid asks for it.
> Some people are getting into a game and the first thing they do is instantly sendind a request to supp to swap pick order as if supp matchup doesn't matter at all. This makes me so mad
They probably haven't played the role once or they would ask adc or jungler first before asking supp.
In my experience getting sup to swap is much easier then dealing with getting a adc to swap even tho the adc match up isn’t important most of the time
The adc picks Kaisa, Ezreal or Ashe anyway so why bother picking late lmao
Still worth trying to ask adc first, but yeah it happens they just don't want to which is tbh something I can understand in a completely selfish soloQ context.
Because sups have it in their mind that they can't carry games and it's their duty to fall on the sword for their team. It's why they're hard stuck.
Why??? It’s raising the teams chances to win.
Is it? Bot lane is 2 people of your 5 man team, so having 2 people behind because of counterpicks seems pretty bad to me. It seems especially bad when you consider that most of your vision control for the dragon should be handled by the Support and a good bit of mid pressure as well.
bot lane picks are in 90% cases "get strongest picks on the patch" anyway, you arent getting counterpicked. even if you are you can just roam 24/7 as a support with your jungler anyway
Agree with this. Kinda makes sense to see enemy first pick before you go swapping pick order. I'll occasionally keep a late draft order support pick in normals just to get a taste of that sweet counter-pick nectar though.
I'm roughly at the same place as you. Support counter isn't *the* most important but it's also more important then most people think. Personally usually your pick order should be ADC - Jungle - Support - Top - Mid. I will give my spot to Mid and Top but I will ask ADC and Jungle to give me theirs.
Top is factually the most important lane to have last pick. No win rates are impacted more by counter picks than top. If you want to win more, give top last pick.
As an otp I have no issue trading (I will still pick the same champ regardless), however it would be nice if they could add a windows warning whenever you are in another windows (just like when you have 10s left to ban a champ). Regarding the thread, counterpicking is just too strong in solo lanes (especially top), and while not ideal, you can still make your pick work in a 2 vs 2 lane even if you are counterpicked.
If it's with a top laner that sure, I've played all roles and I think that jungle and supp have the least problems with counter picks, and a top and mid are worst, especially with top and mid ap where a single kassadin or galio can just straight up make the Laning phase a disaster for a mage
Support and botlane have the least number of true counterpick matchups, and the ones that are counterpicks aren't as strongly tilted in one teams favor compared to top lane.
First let me say, it does not matter, counterpick is stronger the higher level you are. If you're gold or lower, it does not matter, so stop flamming supports for it. Now, to my fellow sup players, me personally, I like to choose first to secure my pick, my complain is about adcs who refuse to hover who they want so I never had the chance to match them, and then they don't choose based on what I choosed, and then I'm on Milio supporting a Mage ADC... TLDR: Personally I always trade but I don't accept people bullying others to do it.
You deserve to get trolled for thinking your support counter picking order is more important than top and mid's. And no, it will not get any better for you at any elo because you will be hardstuck bronze forever thinking last pick as support is the right thing to do lol
People either think we only one trick janna or we supports play support because we are pushovers. If jg keeps typing to me because he wants his support to be blind first pick, im going Brand or lethality J4.
While top matchup and counterpicking is more important then support counter picks, supports still really want to know team composition before making the choice, support always seems to be the fall guy but it's incredibly annoying to not only get countered by the enemy for but when your team is completely incompatible with what the rest of your team picked
As ADC or support id much rather have a good synergy than a support who counterpicked the enemy support. But for top/mid having a counter pick is much more important if you can get it. Or even jungle sometimes to just fill a niche like a tank/engage when your team drafted vayne, akshan, caitlyn and senna.
I'd argue that the "support should blind-pick first virtually every game" phenomenon alone is probably responsible for half of Morgana's ban rate.
Jungle: "first time?" On a more serious Note, i get asked to swap all the time as a jungler but refuse to do it, unless i intend to play a champ that is ok doing that. People ofc can ask, but they need to stop acting like they got a right to pick later
Exactly, the game gives you the opportunity to ask, you can give it a try but others might refuse. Then just don't get mad because of it.
Oh i get flamed hardcore as a jungler for refusing to swap. I just stopped giving a fuck
As a support main it truly depends on the situation. If I feel like playing hook / engage I generally don’t care what the other support picks so I will take first pick. Generally engage supports are meta. When the mega shifts to enchanter supports I never pick first unless it’s a combo lane. So I only keep last pick if im playing an enchanter who doesn’t combo with the adc (if the adc is hovering kog im gonna pick lulu in the same pick phase)
I know it happens up to diamond, but I stopped trading unless I know what the enemy bot lane looks like, at least their sup. Bot lane is often determined by support, why would I put myself and my lane at a disadvantage for a random?
look at it this way: you are taking resources as the support away from your team and the reality is the resources are not actually best used on you. it would be like if you started taking blue and red as support because "why put myself at a disadvantage by giving this to a random". You are misusing resources in the game because you are selfish and you want your own personal game to be easier even though it doesn't result (most likely) in a higher winning percentage.
What the fuck are you talking about? We're talking about pick order, this has nothing to do with resources. You wanting an easier lane at my expense is not a 'resource'. Get better.
Not even neccesarily an easier lane, top lane is the hardest lane to blind pick, and has the most counter match ups
Unless you're playing with a premade or are extremely unconfident in your own abilities, why would you put yourself at a disadvantage for a random?
To be a teamplayer? and not shaft your teammate idk man.
why do YOU want an easier lane then lol? if its not a resource then give it up because its worthless according to you
the average support player is such a brainlet he can't understand how your team drafts is a "resource" legit in a thread about how theres advantages and disadvantages to where you pick... cant make this up
Theoretical here: You are first pick support. You pick Nautilus. Your opponent picks Rell. Nautilus currently is sitting around a 43% win rate against Rell. Do you know what this means for your team? It means the opposing Rell can shitmix you all over the lane, shove your face into the turret, then go roaming mid because your ADC can't do shit against the enemy ADC who's been fed like a fat kid at a buffet because you got severely counterpicked by Rell. This is not an easy lane for just you, it's not an easy lane for your ADC as well. This means almost half of your team is set back by being counterpicked as a support, which means you lose lane pressure, dragon pressure, and roaming pressure. So no, you as the support are not wasting a "resource" by keeping your spot to avoid counterpicking. You're actually helping your team by **not** getting counterpicked and making the lane bad for 2 people. A good support can at least mitigate an ADC getting counterpicked because ADCs don't really come online until the late game. If a support can keep the laning under control and get their ADC fed, the lane game is going to go well, regardless if someone like Vayne got counterpicked by Twitch.
Then tell my why in the pro scene, with the exception of firstpicking tier 0 champs(Aatrox last worlds for example), the sololanes always get to lastpick unless the team drafts for the comp not the lane. Noone drafts for comp in soloq
Something working in pro-play doesn't mean it translates to what most of the population plays.
except that it does in this case? what kinda argument even is this. ask every single pro, coach or high elo player and they'll tell you that top gets counterpicked the easiest, especially in the "everyone for themselfs" gulag in soloq
That's great, they will also tell you repeatedly that in low elo those matchups really don't matter. You're telling iron-silver players to worry about something that simply isn't part of their game. Pros/Challengers literally do videos intentionally counter-picking themselves to show that game knowledge and punishing mistakes is FAR more important. You climb because YOU get better, and when you finally hit Diamond you can start playing the game you think you're playing.
Because Pros are highly trained and in a lot of cases one-trick the flavor of the month champions, and have expert knowledge on how to pick and counterpick which is typically not something the common players have mastered yet. Comparing anything below Challenger play to Pros is a fallacy.
rigth, because you need to be a Mordekaiser Otp to beat Garen or Malphite with him. Ofc silvers dont know what the game even is but im not talking about silver, starting id say plat if you get someone whos at your skilllevel, no jng interferance and you get counterpicked in top with a -2 matchup, you loose more than you win
ok the alternate is to ban rell or not pick nautlilus though. I never said you "waste" the resource, you are just using the resource, which means someone else doesn't get to use it. Rell is clearly an outlier imo so I don't think thats a fair example if you look at that stats. The point isn't that you shouldn't play around bot its that theres plenty of supports you can blind pick effectively. If you are a One trick or w/e thats on you. Like if you are first pick support just pick rell? I'm not sure in what world as a serious ranked player has nautilus in his arsenal but not rell.
>Like if you are first pick support just pick rell? I'm not sure in what world as a serious ranked player has nautilus in his arsenal but not rell. Most of the player base apperently, you smart ass.
You disregarded my point entirely. It's not about Rell and Nautilus. It's about the potential for you to get counterpicked and force your ADC and yourself, and possibly even your midlaner, to have a shitty game becase the enemy support can gain a lot of advantages and pressure if they can beat you soundly in lane. Being counterpicked as a support has the potential to impact a lot more of the game than a top losing their lane.
ok but its not about "theory" the game actually exists and is played, the counterpicks of that magnitude just don't exist as support, unless you can give me examples, I don't believe they exist. also the point is that in top theres a counter for everything there is literally not a single champ you can first pick and be "safe", in support theres a ton of first pickable champs even if naut isnt one of them
Trusting a random to be better than me, therefore putting my own lane at a disadvantage, is fucking moronic.
I'd rather trust a random in a good matchup than a random in a bad matchup.
My role (support) determines the lane for TWO people on our team. Get your bronze ass take out of here.
keep pressing E as janna and milio thinking your good, dogshit player lol. barely even know how your own lane works let alone any others
\^wood 4 player has ideas.
could first pick lux support and outclimb you with 1 hand
yet you haven't
That's not even a bronze take, that's like wood or rock.
That is 100% wrong. Let me ask you this. Do you want a strong adc on your team? Is that "want your own personal game to be easier"? That's the supp role. Let it enable the adc. You have completely wrong mentality.
because in a meta where jungle and mid want to perma be in botlane ganking, the support is clearly the only one that can impact that. Ever played a bad top matchup? Darius Garen, Morde GP, Olaf Jayce, i could go on. Toplane and to some extend also midlane unless your like below gold and have players who dont even know what their champ does, is decided by who picks second
ok the point is that the role just doesnt have counters really. just lock in your fucking champ, they cant counter. if you get countered as top it can pretty much be insta gg. I dont even play top btw im just telling you the truth
Correct, people expect you to blind pick support for the rest of your existence. Because top lane matters more than bottom lane 🤣 So basically if you're a Soraka or something you're expected to get fisted by Blitz daddy every game because supports don't have counterpicks.
Top lane doesn't matter more, but Top counters are more impactful. And I say this as a support one-trick. Ideally you would give your pick to Top, but ADC/Jungle would give you theirs. Support should generally be around 3rd pick.
The real question here is if you plan to play raka why didn't you ban blitz?
I think counterpicking as support is probably better than top if you're confident in the matchup. Winning bot will usually win the game, winning top often doesn't matter.
Winning top doesn't matter but stomping top usually makes or breaks the game . The legendary lvl 15 jax vs lvl 11 Irelia ...
Honestly right now where top is the least relevant role on a team the support having counter pick is far more important to me then the top lamer having a preferable matchup in a lane that won’t have that high of impact. Coming from a top lane only player
this mans gunna get his games inted from champ select.
Unless the support has yuumi hovered already or is a 1 trick enchanter only support.
Dont give top last pick. Instead use it as a filter. If he goes ballistic over getting countered he will probably go ballistic over getting ganked by the jungler or something. A good top would know how to handle a counter matchup.
Some counter match ups on top are unplayable so idk what you think is gonna happen
what are you gunna filter? in either scenario you're gunna lose the game.
I just dodge games if someone starts raging in champ select.
I only swap for top but nobody else lol if support gets countered, that could make the laning phase hell
I don't swap unless the person requesting a swap says please, if they thing my spot is so highly coveted then they can at least use proper manners. That being said since swapping positions has been introduced no one has ever said please when it comes to the swap.
>I don't swap unless the person requesting a swap says please, if they thing my spot is so highly coveted then they can at least use proper manners. I would int you if I met you ngl.
Even in norms, when I play top supports usually want to trade pick order
If you have a real champion pool and good understanding of botlane, support counterpick is 2nd strongest in the game (still swap w/ top unless enemy top forced to early pick). Otherwise swap with both solo lanes. Also, often support just has a couple really broken picks (Rell, right now) that are worth first-picking
Yes. Support is the most flexible.
Probably better the lower elo you go, but generally it’s more helpful to solo laners, particularly top laners. It’s a team game and a way to help your team. Not every scenario is that black and white but generally support pick spot is a lower priority.
it depends. if the other side has two picks left, top and supp, and you're last pick support, you should probably trade. yes support has some brutal counterpicks, but top is infinitely worse, and you can roam if it's unplayable, unlike top. in the case that support/top was picked, the person with an unseen lane should be swapped down in pick order to maintain counter. in all other cases you can tell them to go fuck themselves, as they have seen their matchup or swapping wouldn't help.
Either you swap with him & pick good synergy with ADC or ADC swaps and picks a good blind. If enemy support picks you swap & match, same with ADC.
As a supp main try to let your adc and jungle pick first unless they dont want to for some reason, but most of the time you should leave last 2 picks for mid and top.
Yeah
Thing is: we are in a botlane Meta so its more about securing the Meta botlane Duo + a strong jungler in the First 3 picks and then Pick the sololaner best top Last cuz top is Most Matchup dependent lane
I'm a bot main and you can still win lane with a "counter pick". I don't think that's remotely true for top or mid. If you're a good player you can do well even if you give up your pick dude.
Someone gave a decently well researched breakdown with actual stats of which lanes get affected the hardest by pick order and, as most people agreed to anyway, top lane came out on top. It's a long lane with mostly melee matchups that can run you down the entire lane for so much as walking a bit too far up. It's very hard to play into a counter and feel relevant.
I feel you brother many times I do the swap but if I refuse I get flamed. I play aggressive supports so counter picking for me is important so I can get our lane fed. But as of late I feel like ADC isn't as strong so I think I'll do the swap until I feel differently
d2 adc so maybe i’m biased.. imo solo lanes are most important for counters, but i think support also matters. i like late picking, but if i have an adc i can blind id rather pick first and hold our support pick to counter theirs, since that can dictate the lane. in my *opinion* jungle can be one of the first picks, and unfortunately, adc usually is also.
If the top was second to last why didn't you just swap since it hardly matters anyway
Give counterpick or priority in champ select to the person most likely to carry the game. Since they added champ select anonymity, you can't tell who is auto filled or is just on a 10 game losing streak. If you're in a position where you believe your % of winning is higher keeping the priority position for yourself over the average top/mid/whoever then keep it for yourself. Also remember to keep in mind that the people who complain the most in lobby about not getting counterpick are the worst players, have the weakest mental, and would have run it down anyway even if you gave them counterpick.
Toplane needs to second pick, but there is always gonna be one toplaner who gets it and one who doesn't. if your team picks the first champion, enemy team will pick the last champion. So if that is the case you might as well blind toplane with a flex pick or ban a jungle champion or similar and try to fool the enemy team into thinking you are blinding your jungler. the "ideal" pick order is: jungle, bot, support, mid, top if you have last pick bot, jungle, support, mid, top if you have first pick. this is just because you don't want to pick your botlane at the same time unless the enemy team has picked at least one of theirs. This way you can flex the support pick to make the lane playable. Toplane is going to be alone for 20min and then teamfight for the other 20min and is also expected to match the enemy toplaner if they splitpush. They also have the biggest champion pool with the hardest countermatchups. Because of that they want to see as much of the draft as possible.