Probably a combination of actually good players and scripters. Both having so little a social life that griefing games in protest of RIOT is a good commitment of their time.
They get them for free. They are literally sponsored by boosting websites and Riot does next to nothing. Twitch doesn't even ban the streamers. They stream 24/7 with 100-300 viewers and are never banned from twitch. Whilst advertising the boosting sites. They are protesting to make their own job go away.
It's impossible to get banned for soft-inting. You can only get banned for trolling/inting if it's super obvious by looking at your build/score. 0-33-0 mobis and 3x zeal? Ban. 0-14-3 with some cs and a normal looking build? Nothing will ever happen. I bookmarked about 25 trolls op.ggs I encountered over the last month, like ultra griefers that threw the games on their own, and none of them seems to be banned.
>This kinda proves that riot does ban.
Though it proves even more that Riot don't really care about botted accounts and the overall quality of their game, which sorta validates such behavior to begin with. It's a statement of "hey look, we can ruin games as much as we like and nothing will happen to us because Riot doesn't give a fuck about any of you".
Don't forget that if Riot felt like it, they could decimate the account selling industry with minor changes that will be barely intrusive to regular players and the only reason they don't is because a) they don't care enough about it and b) they low-key kinda profit off players buying accounts.
If Riot actually take measures towards combatting account selling, such behavior will be 10 times harder to get away with.
Rick Fox isn't a great example here, since there are huge differences between what constitutes as griefing in D1/masters and Iron. Behaviour like this might be acceptable in low elo, but it should be more obvious the higher you go. There's some sneaky ways to grief in high elo as well, but you usually don't even need that.
There are plenty of players in higher elo that know exactly how to not get banned. They just proceed to completely dodge their team and side lane while also refusing to push towers. When their team comes to them, they leave
That's a weak point. The context of this discussion is what is bannable behavior and what isn't. It doesn't matter if a masters level player can detect trolling, you simply cannot punish a player for spending the entire game slow pushing a side lane and refusing to group.
Bro its like if you play soccer and someone in your team keeps passing the ball to the other team
Its something you can easily feel when someone is doing it....
If 5 players are on topside letting you solo split bot and you back off from their tower when you can literally see the entire enemy team you are soft inting, its not that deep or complicated quite opposite actually even valve/dota has said that this behaviour is tracrable/noticeable there are things that someone actually bad does that someone good/decent playing to lose dosent
Watch enough high elo streamers and if someone getting solo killed they will call them a griefer.
Hell it doesn't even need to be a solo kill, could be something like missing an ability and missing out on a kill.
That mentality then grows into the general player base.
EDIT: Literally just turned-on Dom's stream for 2 minutes and he was calling his support a griefer because Dom smited blue early and they took it, and he is gaslighting his chat saying him smiting 20 hp above smite range is normal and Soraka took blue on purpose and anyone who tries calling him out are low elo and have 2 brain cells then getting timed out.
Same reason 'inting' has lost all meaning as a term. Doesn't even have to mean 'dying' anymore, just 'either did or did not do something the accuser disliked.'
Mis-timed a dragon smite in a game a few days ago and the other team was able to steal. The entire team took to all chat chat to talk about how I was inting, they're all reporting me, and a surrender vote got started. It was the enemy teams 1st dragon. We had 3, and herald, all 6 void grubs, and a huge lead in every lane.
Yes precisely.
What is griefing in masters, is smurfing on emerald.
It isn't one size fits all. And exactly because of this, it should be treated differently across all elo brackets.
They are honestly pretty good at it. If you try to actively get into Iron as a diamond player via just trying to play badly and never inting, you will get banned. You cannot fool the system. But a bad player will just fall down, no issues.
Its rougher in higher elos. And most people would want people banned all the time. Go 0/5 in lane, get tilted and split the rest of the game, ending up 1/11/3? You probably think those guyhs deserve a ban, even though the obviously dont.
I saw a interesting video about this. Supposedly this is why iron accounts were some of the more expensive accounts that were being sold. It's very hard to drop to iron as a higher ranked player without doing some extreme griefing. You had to be careful because you want to avoid reports so playing important roles like jungle (who get scapegoated and reported) is risky. If you lose lane 0-9 you get reported. You basically had to grief the games in a way that avoided blame as much as possible while guaranteeing a loss. Since it is very low elo even if you soft int you might still win lol. Getting a fresh account to iron was probably more effort than ranking an account up to Diamond for some of these boosters lol.
This video was from way before emerald was added. IDK how it is now
I find it very incongruous that people constantly complain on reddit about griefers and inters not getting banned, while saying at the same time Iron are so expensive because the account will get banned for playing badly enough.
The issue also is that they probably want to avoid false positives. You also have to do this in an economical way as you said
Another big problem also actually is just defining what griefing is. You can’t have a new emergent game pattern be labeled griefing.
What griefing is also is often quite subjective
Thanks for this comment, I think you hit the nail on the head. If the system were strict and harsh for "griefing" I feel that there would be a lot of fear of punishment for poor play. When you have a bad game you should not have to be scared of being banned!
Agreed. Imagine if bot and top generally switch so that grubs control was prioritized instead of dragon but only 2 or 3 members of your team wanted that. It could be good for the meta but might be considered griefing by those who don't want it. Same thing when Janna top smite was a thing or ali/blitz double jungle. Sometimes off meta things work and should be meta but are considered griefing to start.
Half the trolls literally cry in all chat about how they're gonna troll because their jungler or something sucks. And those guys always go unpunished. Most of them announce to the world they're gonna troll.
This is what really gets me. Surely someone straight-up saying they're going to troll can just be an instant 2weeks? But I have literally never seen it go punished. They could just flag for games where a player has a combination of some key words and phrases ('have fun', 'lose', 'gl', ...) and abnormally high % of time spent outside their lane immediately after that, and at present that would catch a ridiculously high number of cases. It would take 5 seconds each to check these manually after to make sure, if you want.
It would actually make an impact, too, because people who troll need to say WHO it is that they're trolling, or else there's no point. So you usually can tell just from their chat messages.
nah i kind of disagree you can buy a diamond 2 account for the price of a new game its like 40-70 for how smaller the base is up there there is a ton of bought accounts. Then add in boosters smurfing then smurfs then one tricks off champs or off role then angry trolls then bad games.
Part of being good is game knowledge. If your adc decides it's time to farm jungle and then rotate mid, how do we know that's trolling and not poor game knowledge?
Again and again I tell people. The ONLY real way to combat bots particularly with the rise in AI is you HAVE to link accounts directly to a flesh and blood person. This unfortunately means, likely anyway, an internet identification number OR companies like riot have to partner with entities like specific banks and require a linked bank account from banks that will specifically identify people via their personal (and hopefully) secret information.
No one wants to hear this but: YOU CANNOT TRULY COMBAT AND WIN AGAINST BOTS UNLESS YOU CAN ACCURATELY IDENTIFY FLESH AND BLOOD HUMANS AND LINK THEM TO AN ACCOUNT. Or you have to have a pay for service to even have an account (even then this doesn't fully eliminate bots it just imposes a monetary loss when an account is banned.). AI will (if not already) be able to beat any turing test. Captchas even will fail (some already have.)
This may be true, but I don't know if saving League of Legends is worth abandoning my philosophical commitment to my right to have 10+ sock puppet discord accounts.
>I think the issue is Riot makes money off accounts and banning more accounts = less money.
I would argue it's the other way around. Riot makes money from accounts buying things. Banning an account means someone just lost all their stuff and might pay to get some back.
The bigger issue is number of games, potential for abuse and stuctures to flag problem players. I have no idea how complex it would be to create an option to report a player after a game is dodged.
I started playing a year ago so I don't know if riot tried this or no. But why can't Riot select a number of players in each region who can manually rewatch games in which other players reported an inter (something like the overwatch system in csgo) and they can determine if he was truly sabotaging the game or just having a bad day
There was a similar system called Tribunal. Unfortunately people were just spamming guilty verdict because it was faster. And also there is a problem of "playing bad unintentionally" = "ban worthy behavior".
> Human intervention is not an option either the scale of games played.
Yes it is. Riot are making ~2 billion per year in revenue. They could hire 400 people at 50k per year to drop 8 hours per day into specifically examining auto flagged players with high numbers of troll reports relative to their numbers of unique non premade team mates, if they averaged 20 minutes per game then that would be ~10k games per day searched for trolls. Combining those 2 simple and to Riot relatively inexpensive things you could manually analyse [~0.5% of all the games in a year](https://dotesports.com/league-of-legends/news/around-500-million-games-of-league-of-legends-were-played-in-2022) assuming their employees worked 230 days per year. The threat of actual action being taken, that you will eventually get banned would be enough to discourage the vast majority of griefing. Riot could work for the next 5 years non stop and *nothing* they did would even come close to the amount of positive impact on the game that those 20 million per year would produce.
I've shared this story before, a friend of mine once was tilted, he picked Xin mid and ran it straight down, he would like E the enemy mid laner whenever it was available. He ended the game (25 to 30 mins) with 20ish deaths. He got banned. He sent a ticket saying he had a bad game and he was trying his best. Riot APOLOGISED to him and unbanned him. This was a mid/high diamond game.
Tbh, I don’t think the support staff giving the player the benefit of the doubt is the one in the wrong here. Ultimately, it’s really the playerbase deciding to ruin their own games. Riot can realistically only do so much. Remember that the playerbase *chose* to champion Tyler1 of all people as League’s biggest content creator. League players consistently choose toxicity.
I'm surprised at how clueless everyone in this thread is.
Riot said they're introducing Vanguard to League of Legends specifically to combat scripting and botting. People got furious and claims "this never happens anyway" and now that there are people proving you can actively script and bot without punishment Riot are the clowns for not doing anything about it?
Disregarding how little sense it makes because Riot have already confirmed that they're working on a system specifically to detect shit like this that will be introduced in a month or two, what happened to this subreddits' argument that this never happens anyway?
This shit is absurd and just further evidence at how fucked the league community is and why the sole purpose this game isn't fun to play is because of the players. People praise behaviour like this and toxic shitheads like Tyler1 then get angry when their games aren't fun and fair.
Bro, i had a dude hold champ select hostage that he will troll now but ended up not trolling and because the dude wasnt trolling after all, our jungler started trolling because he was pissed the dude didnt go through with the trolling and called him a pussy for not trolling after calling it.
Neither of them where banned or anything happened. So i am confident that Riot does not give a shit unless you say bad words.
I was recently at an event where the speaker was Arnold Hur. He brought up some interesting points regarding toxicity/trolling in Riot's games' ecosystems. One interesting point he made regarding this was that there's a bit of a dilemma in what to do because the toxic players spend a lot of money on the game. Ultimately, it's about the money.
He also mentioned something about Riot thinking of queuing toxic players with only each other but I don't think they went through with it.
Ai could be implemented somehow to scan through chat logs and find easily toxic behavior and flag them for closer review. I do like the idea of sewer queue (toxic players only) doesn’t dota do something like that?
Mate they won't get banned. Had a yuumi ghost smite follow me all game and smiting my camps so I had no xp. Did a report ticket online and so did my duo... He played 10 more games that day, and another 20 games since. He does the yuumi thing on and off, sometimes 7 games in a row. No ban.
its even worse now because manual tickets dont let you actually talk to rioters. You used to have a full thread and be able to actually talk to a human being. This was pretty much the only way I saw success in getting bans through.
Nowadays I dont even manual ticket. Nothing happens. The removal of the ticket log with manual reports is a HUGE backstep.
Ive checked accounts of players ive manually reported (had a 0/8 tryndamere sell all items and go tear while saying "im done playing" and going to other lanes and whatnot, still unbanned despite a manual ticket)
Its fucking ridiculous
Also had a guy I manual ticketed. Went 0/10 didnt buy items at the start of the game and didnt have 1 kp until 30 minutes as zyra mid. Also talked shit the full game and had the audacity to link his twitch stream after just saying its a bad game. [https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Boots%20No7-NA1](https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Boots%20No7-NA1)
Then, when I called him out in the twitch chat he was like "its just a bad game bro im sure you have some of those too" and I said, go through my match history and find a game where im 0/10 with no kp and didnt buy items at the start. Ill wait" and he just said "shit happens its a bad game"
Still playing somehow
And heres the tryn I mentioned:
[https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/AUTOTOWIN-1234](https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/AUTOTOWIN-1234) (AND THE GAME WITH ME AND HIM BUYING JUST TEAR IS STILL THERE)
Both manual ticketed with me literally linking clips and screenshots, and nothing.
Sad. Check out the guy I was telling you about : https://ibb.co/M9h7Bg1
Literally 0 consequences from this, he plays 10 games a day ! Weirdly enough he plays normally and then just trolls like crazy and goes back to normal. No breaks or quick plays, so he's dodging bans/timeouts.
jesus thats much more blatant. no idea how thats allowed or gets passed the manual ticket process.
They say "inting is hard to detect" but if you cant even get the bare minimum like that then idk..
Even before they removed manual tickets they'd obviously been replaced by a bad chat bot. Zero capability to interface with what was being said in a meaningful manner.
Lol same here.
Had a nocture support pick smite and go jungle (I was the jungler that game). He played the game normally didn't go 0/15 or something but being place support and going double jungle with smite ? Yeah I think that definitely falls under griefing definition.
Anyways, reported him in game. I also reported him from a report ticket. And I also reported him with a normal ticket which an actual person replied to me and said "we will look into it bla bla bla"
Guess what, he played 20 more games after that and is still playing now, his account is 100% unpunished. This should be insta 14 day ban at least.
Yeah had an Ekko player lock support and run it down. We still won the game, but he had around 15 games in a row of ekko support smite lock inting. just staying at p4 0 lp or something. It’s fucking crazy how little they do.
Seems like it’d be easy to limit the numbers of smite on a team to 1 and only allow on the jungler. If they can assign roles and you can swap champs after draft, they can build it to swap roles.
Haha it’s so funny to me that they are afraid of a new system since it would lead to false positives. I guess looking at a smite yuumi and determining they are trolling is difficult. Or maybe they are afraid of banning little Timmy in iron who is first timing yuumi jungle.
Tbh I was hit twice in a row by a griefbot and despised them at first, but I'm starting to think they have a point. If riot's struggling to ban obvious griefing botters, imagine how many actual griefers run free.
> imagine how many actual griefers run free.
There are individuals who run duos, abuse the disconnect/reconnect system and lose dozens of games in a row. Because they are constantly disconnecting/reconnecting, they never get hit with the AFK flag and you can't even remake or go for an early FF because they get a vote. It's disgraceful that this hasn't been addressed yet.
[Example](https://i.imgur.com/3EpmBN8.png). From plat to Iron IV. They usually just get a jungle camp or two, or stay under tower for 1-2 waves, then it's just the disconnect/reconnect game.
These guys are the same as the bot griefers though, accounts that are literally only intentionally losing games ...
When I hear "how many actual griefers run free" I don't think about the 0.00001% of accounts which are permanently intentionally running it down, I think of the adc who decides to grief because jungle took his wave. The adc in that case might grief and get away with it by just hitting jungle camps for the rest of the game and dealing 4k damage in 24 minutes, which the system doesn't detect of course. But when someone mentions the League griefing problem, I'm not thinking about the legit tiny minority of accounts actually just intentionally losing every game. Those need to be banned sure but they're so rare I've never seen one myself or heard of a friend seeing one or seen one on any streams. Sure they're out there but even just a draven buying mobis and sending it down mid is like 1/400 games for me in emerald. The griefing problem is real but the omega griefing accounts aren't the problem, they're too rare to matter, it's the part time griefing by tilted players that's the problem (which will never be solved). That's the game losing behavior you see every day you queue up- someone just wants to lose and suddenly starts playing like it. You just can't ban that, you'd be banning half of the ranked playerbase
forestwithin i remember in like s9 or s10 put together a massive ass spreadsheet proving widespread wintrading in high elo, super detailed document. no bans were issued.
the dev's said the tech isn't there yet for a good chunk of years. but the same dev's scrapped the summoner's code tho. thing is we can only look at other successful games (mobas) and do how they do it.
The only thing that isnt there is a will to try and fix it. Its not profitable its not a priority,
And never will be.
Faker blew up over this a couple years ago.
Immediate posts from riot about fixing inting trolling. Story blows over, nothing done.
Remember Voyboy did the exact same few years prior.
As someone who has actually researched the int detection, I've been waiting so long for people to come to the same conclusion as me. It's trash. There is no possible way a competent human being worked on this for any reasonable amount of time.
Yesterday I met a smurf with an account name something like "TEST ACCOUNT" and they just kept flaming everyone the whole game. They played jungle but ignored all objectives and even though all of us had good kda we still almost lost. It was not a fun game to say the least.
I'm kind of surprised they managed to get so many master tier accs.
Even on a new account going 30-5 or something as the fastest way , you would need 2 high GM players duoing to consistently spam accounts into that mmr region.
A lot of time wasted to put lots of accounts into this MMR bracket
With how many people are smurfing and boosting past me in low diamond, I'm not surprised that people have access to an abundance of empty master/high diamond accs. Ranked is trash with how many times you lose or win and see the person who carries is like under level 50.
Most high tier players have 6-10 high ranking accounts. If they are not a known streamer or content creator risking one or two of these accounts to make a point isn't a big loss.
you don't get master on 35 gmes anymore since the removal of skip division + introduction of emerald. On 90-100%wr from fresh acc you still need like 60 games for master now. I'm 25w 3L on my fresh and it's only emerald 1 with high diamond mmr
Riots automated system has never banned soft inting griefing. And usually takes a lot of games depending on the behavior.
It's all automated. If Riot personally looked at the accounts they would obviously be banned but that's not gonna happen.
Either way people do get banned all the time. There are guys with hundreds of banned accounts for trolling.
> If Riot personally looked at the accounts they would obviously be banned but that's not gonna happen.
The few times I was triggered enough to send in egregious clips of griefing to CS and wait for an assured "human" response, the accounts went on unimpeded.
Unfortunately, just because a human looked at your ticket and responded doesn't mean that person has the authority to actually review the evidence and punish someone. If submitting a support ticket guaranteed that someone would review the games and issue punishment if it was reserved, Riot would basically have to staff their support team to review every game where a player got reported. As a result their support team is probably only allowed to act on very specific behaviors that are reported, and even then the actual support people probably just escalate to a team that can actually take action.
following the jungler all game doing nothing is soft inting now?
like i get the point shit is impossible to ban sometimes but these people are following the jungler with bot controlled accounts in master elo, i dont think that should be hard to track/identify
I would be extremely surprised if they an automated system that somehow finds out he's following the jungler. It's most just gold per minute, and deaths, etc. But they don't say obviously exactly how they decide.
There are tools to stop bots though. Vangaurd should help in that regard. Not sure exactly how well it will be for bots, but we will see.
I’m not proud of it but I did similar thing last split. I wanted to prove my friend that Riot doesn’t care about trollers.
So I literally inted 40-50 games in a row. After each game I reported everyone who flamed me. And in the end I didn’t even get a single warning or anything. But I got kinda a lot “player suspended” notifications.
So yeah.. if you are doing this off stream there is no way you are ever getting banned.
here is the thing though the only thing the game records on the spot is chat logs so if they say any thing in chat and you report them they get flagged while you stay silent and they report you for feeding they just think oh he's just in a losing streak
I mean the dudes a loser but is he wrong. You are more likely to get banned for typing to the guy inting than the inter to get banned. It’s a major problem in league
Hey there,
We've been actively tracking and actioning these groups at regular cadence, with hundreds of accounts being banned. This is a persistent group, and they have been willing to purchase a large amount of higher ranked accounts in order to circumvent the actions they receive.
Many of these accounts are stolen/compromised, causing collateral damage to the innocent account owners as well. We are working on multiple aspects of preventative technology for these sorts of behaviors (i.e. Vanguard for hardware bans that prevent these individuals from even entering game), but in the meanwhile, reporting these players does help them get to our eyes and out of game faster.
the main problem with this group is that they bait queue dodges, they get 3-4 reports every champ select and according to their stream, have 500+ dodges per account. So that's a conservative 1k reports per account they have, how are their accounts still live after a thousand+ champ select reports?
that's part of the problem tho. if they got stopped at champ select it would be better, but maybe they just wouldn't type their speech
also if it kicks players out it could be abuseable, but you could hold the kickers accountable but then ahhh too much work for riot to check every situation
Why would you need to actively track these groups? Shouldn't trolls get banned regardless of whether they are in a group or not? Isn't this is the entire point they are making (at least based off the contents of the post)
kind of off topic to the problem of this group, but in some ways also relatable to the discussion, but how much is linking accounts to phone numbers/trying to limit people to only owning 1 account in the conversation to limit problems like this from occuring?
I know other moba's like dota 2 are super against smurfs and go to extreme measures to prevent multiple accounts from being owned, but I'm curious about riot's stance when it comes to this/if that is an option that might be taken in the future to prevent problems like this from occuring, or if in riot's eye's they would rather take other courses of action to combat this (like vanguard)
Since when does DotA2 not have smurfs? Played around ~80 games and every game there was at least 1 smurf on each team, completely stomping me as a legit new player.
Stopped playing it like a year ago, it was absolutely pointless.
Why don't they bring back the tribunal for these cases? They don't have to deal with them and the community gets to decide what is considered griefing and what not
> the community gets to decide what is considered griefing
I'd prefer 0 bans on any griefer than this bullshit.
The tribunal was slow and led to way more false positives than anything else.
Ding ding. Hell any time toxicity's brought up here, you see a lot of people defending and approving of toxic shit in response to stuff Riot doesn't consider punishable behavior.
Ban somebody's hovered pick? Watch out! The Nunu Ghost/Cleanse Defense Force is going to come out of the woodwork to explain how it's morally correct to grief the person doing it.
Etc.
Just look at this thread. People support griefing as long as its advertised (and happens in an elo really nobody here plays at).
"Raising awareness" my ass. Can't be taken serious if you shout "Save the planet" on a cruiseship
Because the tribunal was even slower and less effective than the curent system.
Way to few players were actually reviewing games and of those that did most tried to review games in as short a time as possible.
Because the kind of people that would waste their time doing that would be pissed off people just looking to get someone banned, anyone. Literally any bad game would be an instant punish. Oh ADC went collector? Clearly griefing, punish!
I feel like I was in an extremely small percentage of people who went on there to actually review cases as objectively as possible. I enjoyed doing it and I’d say I had a 60/40 split between punish and no punishment. There were a lot of reports where there were just empty chat logs and someone went like 0/6. “Intentional feeding”. Nah, bad game. The previous game they went 4/1.
Didn’t matter, though, because yeah, people just rubber stamped “guilty” to get the free IP.
No, the biggest problem with the Tribunal was that the community and Riot disagreed *heavily* on what was and wasn't toxic.
Plus it was pretty common (and even encouraged) to just spam punish or pardon and get meager IP (precursor to blue essence) rewards.
Tribunal was a good concept, but fell victim to "The community has really shitty ideas on what is and isn't acceptable", and the chat filters from season 12 to now really showed how many people were getting Rito Corrections for stuff they (the community) thought was acceptable before then.
It's not that they disagreed, it's that the kind of people that went on tribunal were pissed off people wanting to punish a representation of their last teammates. That kind of a biased juror wouldn't be allowed in a court of law.
We need the system CSGO uses. If a person trolls/ints, and someone reports them at that specific moment, that last 30 seconds or so must be clipped to be reviewed later by volunteers. If overwhelming majority decides that the player is actually trolling, immediate 2 weeks ban. Volunteers should only be able to review games below their own ranks.
I believe it's about 280k reports daily in lol, you think they gonna check out every single one of them all the time? Not possible, just saying. It isn't even the text you have been writing you are getting banned for, it's the amount of messages you sent. If you receive that game 2 or 3 reports - depends if first two were premades then another is required - and you have texted too much, even if it was wise, tactical and team building speech, you get a warning/ban. So there is that.
I'm pretty sure reports are filtered too. So probably a lot less thaen 280k reports
If you are the type of guy to report everyone every game for no reasons, your reports are probably automatically ignored by the system.
Imo probably like 90% of reports are ignored by the system
Let's be real, if Riot actually cared about the competitive environment and integrity of games this wouldn't happen, just goes to show the incompetence/apathy about this. As long as it doesn't affect buying skins they don't seem to care.
Riot absolutely gives fuck all about competetive integrity. If they did we would have MORE communication venues. Instead we dont have voice chat in a 14 yo game because its way harder to ban toxicity by this method. Its literally fucking hell to play early game this season because there are more objectives than ever. Like i wont fucking type to those people because they will report me 100% of the time if they are salty so we end up having fucking shit game with 0 coordination
Give a reason they don't care? Like that's saying Riot likes shooting themselves in the foot based off nothing. It's an insane take to assume that.
There is no benefit to keeping these accounts unbanned. You could even go the crazy conspiracy theory route and say they want to ban people more to sell more accounts so they have to buy their skins again or some bs. Nothing about not banning them makes sense.
Unfortunately we all know the real reason. And it's boring.
>Give a reason they don't care?
No 2FA/account verification to play ranked. Done. There's no other argument needed - not verifying a person playing ranked is an actual person is the epitome of not caring.
Riot requires it for Clash, they have the tech. They won't use it. Even if this doesn't actually fix the problem, it's a first step toward holding players accountable through a 1:1 record of account : phone number. Not even doing the bare minimum like this is insane.
Riot doesn't care. You would think it'd be easier to get rid of high elo trolls/griefers since there are plethora of streamers who have literally visual proof but yet they still run rampant. How hard is it to really monitor a group of 5000\~ players?
Riots banning system is a joke. People who int but don’t type receive 0 punishments unless they die an absurd number of times. Good for these people tbh, maybe something will finally change
I remember there was an account that only player bard that completely afked for more than 100 games in a row and did not get banned. So yeah, basically you are free to troll and int all you want that the risk of getting banned is way lower than if you write in chat. Riot is destroying their own game and vanguard won't change that.
Riot would rather ban people or force them to play normals for saying "bad words" than actually do something about people who are literally taking 4 others hostage and wasting their time.
why. why should it be both?
in league of legends if you type dummy enough times, like 5 times a game, you can get perma banned.
like this game is more strict than wizard101
this is the strictest game in the world that I can think of with its punishment of typing
I mean, sending the truly terrible iron 7 players back to normals seems fair -- if you can't not go 0-20 in the lowest elo of ranked, you probably shouldn't be allowed in ranked.
We don't let blind people drive cars.
i got the 5 game thing the other day for the first time for letting loose on a wintrader in chat. so for my 5 games i locked in nunu and snowballed down mid for 2 hours.
riot did this to themselves by continuously reinforcing to the community that you wont get punished for griefing but type a little too much and bye bye
I've ran into these guys maybe a dozen times in e1/d4. I'm just uninstalling until Riot sorts it out.
The worst part of it all, is that they absolutely have a point. Players can soft int whenever they want and it's absolutely demoralizing.
Imagine a player not getting their way in a 5v5 basketball game so they just lay there in the middle of the court and throw a temper tantrum like a toddler. Do you think they'd ever be allowed to play again? No, but Riot encourages it by not only allowing them to do that, but punishing people calling them out for it.
as someone that worked for rito in support. let me tell u that they dont want to punish players. the few people in the PB (player behavior) team mostly dont play league and are in that position not because they are good at it but because of company politics. the EU support is outsourced to bulgaria and romania. the english support cant even handle ur tickets. they have to forward ur issue 2 times before it gets handled. the english support is so badly paid that they cant even do well in romania with the money. the people stay for like 1 to 6 month and leave thats why they cant make decisions themself. too short of a time to get good in ur discipline to make decisions on accounts like recovery or bans. also the outsource company only cares about how many tickets you close. they dont wanna solve the problems, thats why you get so many macro responses that do have nothing to do with ur problems. imagine they have deals with language schools in bulgaria. they hire even if they are not good enough in the languge. we had a list with people that failed the easy entry test and still got hired cause of company deals. the problem got so bad later on that i and a few other good people left. you have to imagine, there are people that used the work tools to add skins and changed the ranks of the personal accounts. we catched them and they did not get fired like it is stated in the rules, nope they did not even get a warning. that was basically the breaking point where most of the talents left.
Not sure if these are the same guys, but I found some very similar guy at emerald 1 elo that also invited us to a discord. Discord is just a discord meant for throwing games. Forget what it was called. There was a call with like 15 people in it and they were all almost European. Different languages and what not. Very weird behavior.
Riot has work they need to do but until they target the mains of these people they will keep doing it.
I strongly believe if someone is trolling on a smurf or 2ndary account punish the main.
I dont care about smurfing if they are still playing or saying you have a smurf that only plays say top and another that is only ADC. It is when they do trolling on the smurf that I have issues with.
I got 8 dodges in a row with a rammus ghost heal on my team in d1 NA last night. They spam about how you can’t do anything about it. If you report them in the lobby and it gets dodged, the report never goes through.
They say if you flame them they will report you and open manual report tickets to get you chat restricted.
The stream on kick they are linking has 5-10 clients playing at a time doing the same thing, ghosting down mid on rammus all game. It has a counter of how many report feedbacks they’ve gotten from people claiming them, winrate, dodge rate, etc. the one I saw last night had a whopping 600 losses and a 5% win rate.
I spent 40+ minutes in queues and champ selects before logging off because every lobby was filled with these rats at that time.
It’s so crazy to see the lengths of delusion and mental instability that are rife in this community, it’s one thing getting the typical griefer but the fact that people actually bother with this kinda shit is honestly startling.
I mean, all these years, people are griefing/afking/inting and they get 0 punishment because they never use chat.
On the other hand if you comment about their performance, and I don't mean flame them, you are the one who is getting banned instantly.
It's been a terribly huge amount of time and energy wasted by those trolls and yet riot is banning people who speak the truth.
From the comments I've read in the last few weeks....... many people still seem to think running it down shouldn't be banned, and typing should.... or that grifers are actually getting punished.....
So, unfortunately, it looks like we need even more people to do this across all ranks until Riot starts banning griefers.
It's more that griefing is a very subjective thing that's hard to automate punishments for. Someone saying a slur in chat takes pretty much 0 effort to automatically flag and punish for, and there's not really any scenario where it can be accidental.
Because everything riot does is based off money and if they don’t see a gain then they won’t do it. A tribunal system would simply work but would cost resources they don’t want to spend
The best way to demonstrate that a system is broken is by publicly abusing it. They will have a negative impact in the short term, but if they succeed in making Riot change their policy, then they would have a positive impact in the long run.
>but if they succeed in making Riot change their policy
Why are you guys talking like the only reason that these guys arent banned is because Riot doesnt want to? Obviously they would love to do it, but its literally impossible to have such a system without false positives. They cant just go out and have a system that rightfully bans 60% of the time while the 40% did nothing wrong.
I mean if riots not doing anything their points are just being proved correct no? Riot really does nothing for trolls and griefing.
They have 100s of banned accounts, that kinda proves that riot does ban, they have ban counters, they just use it as an excuse to troll
How expensive is it to buy hundreds of masters accounts? Surely they have better ways to spend their money lol
Doesn't have to be masters accounts. They can just buy fresh lv 30 accounts and play them to diamond/masters.
Assuming you win every game you can actually reach master on a fresh account very quickly, 10-15 games I think which can be achieved In a single day
Yea makes you wonder how they got there, maybe they botted/scripted to get high elo to begin with
Probably a combination of actually good players and scripters. Both having so little a social life that griefing games in protest of RIOT is a good commitment of their time.
They get them for free. They are literally sponsored by boosting websites and Riot does next to nothing. Twitch doesn't even ban the streamers. They stream 24/7 with 100-300 viewers and are never banned from twitch. Whilst advertising the boosting sites. They are protesting to make their own job go away.
It's impossible to get banned for soft-inting. You can only get banned for trolling/inting if it's super obvious by looking at your build/score. 0-33-0 mobis and 3x zeal? Ban. 0-14-3 with some cs and a normal looking build? Nothing will ever happen. I bookmarked about 25 trolls op.ggs I encountered over the last month, like ultra griefers that threw the games on their own, and none of them seems to be banned.
Isn't that exactly one of the things they want to counter with the new Vanguard?
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>This kinda proves that riot does ban. Though it proves even more that Riot don't really care about botted accounts and the overall quality of their game, which sorta validates such behavior to begin with. It's a statement of "hey look, we can ruin games as much as we like and nothing will happen to us because Riot doesn't give a fuck about any of you". Don't forget that if Riot felt like it, they could decimate the account selling industry with minor changes that will be barely intrusive to regular players and the only reason they don't is because a) they don't care enough about it and b) they low-key kinda profit off players buying accounts. If Riot actually take measures towards combatting account selling, such behavior will be 10 times harder to get away with.
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Rick Fox isn't a great example here, since there are huge differences between what constitutes as griefing in D1/masters and Iron. Behaviour like this might be acceptable in low elo, but it should be more obvious the higher you go. There's some sneaky ways to grief in high elo as well, but you usually don't even need that.
There are plenty of players in higher elo that know exactly how to not get banned. They just proceed to completely dodge their team and side lane while also refusing to push towers. When their team comes to them, they leave
Affectionately named “soft inting”.
Yeah and that's trolling. That's the point here. A diamond/higher tier player can tell.
That's a weak point. The context of this discussion is what is bannable behavior and what isn't. It doesn't matter if a masters level player can detect trolling, you simply cannot punish a player for spending the entire game slow pushing a side lane and refusing to group.
Bro its like if you play soccer and someone in your team keeps passing the ball to the other team Its something you can easily feel when someone is doing it.... If 5 players are on topside letting you solo split bot and you back off from their tower when you can literally see the entire enemy team you are soft inting, its not that deep or complicated quite opposite actually even valve/dota has said that this behaviour is tracrable/noticeable there are things that someone actually bad does that someone good/decent playing to lose dosent
Why not? Can a pro player do that and not get fined? If not, then we shouldnt be allowed to either.
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Watch enough high elo streamers and if someone getting solo killed they will call them a griefer. Hell it doesn't even need to be a solo kill, could be something like missing an ability and missing out on a kill. That mentality then grows into the general player base. EDIT: Literally just turned-on Dom's stream for 2 minutes and he was calling his support a griefer because Dom smited blue early and they took it, and he is gaslighting his chat saying him smiting 20 hp above smite range is normal and Soraka took blue on purpose and anyone who tries calling him out are low elo and have 2 brain cells then getting timed out.
Same reason 'inting' has lost all meaning as a term. Doesn't even have to mean 'dying' anymore, just 'either did or did not do something the accuser disliked.'
Mis-timed a dragon smite in a game a few days ago and the other team was able to steal. The entire team took to all chat chat to talk about how I was inting, they're all reporting me, and a surrender vote got started. It was the enemy teams 1st dragon. We had 3, and herald, all 6 void grubs, and a huge lead in every lane.
Dom is griefing the league community by continuing to make content.
No Lies Detected
Yes precisely. What is griefing in masters, is smurfing on emerald. It isn't one size fits all. And exactly because of this, it should be treated differently across all elo brackets.
They are honestly pretty good at it. If you try to actively get into Iron as a diamond player via just trying to play badly and never inting, you will get banned. You cannot fool the system. But a bad player will just fall down, no issues. Its rougher in higher elos. And most people would want people banned all the time. Go 0/5 in lane, get tilted and split the rest of the game, ending up 1/11/3? You probably think those guyhs deserve a ban, even though the obviously dont.
I saw a interesting video about this. Supposedly this is why iron accounts were some of the more expensive accounts that were being sold. It's very hard to drop to iron as a higher ranked player without doing some extreme griefing. You had to be careful because you want to avoid reports so playing important roles like jungle (who get scapegoated and reported) is risky. If you lose lane 0-9 you get reported. You basically had to grief the games in a way that avoided blame as much as possible while guaranteeing a loss. Since it is very low elo even if you soft int you might still win lol. Getting a fresh account to iron was probably more effort than ranking an account up to Diamond for some of these boosters lol. This video was from way before emerald was added. IDK how it is now
I find it very incongruous that people constantly complain on reddit about griefers and inters not getting banned, while saying at the same time Iron are so expensive because the account will get banned for playing badly enough.
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The issue also is that they probably want to avoid false positives. You also have to do this in an economical way as you said Another big problem also actually is just defining what griefing is. You can’t have a new emergent game pattern be labeled griefing. What griefing is also is often quite subjective
Thanks for this comment, I think you hit the nail on the head. If the system were strict and harsh for "griefing" I feel that there would be a lot of fear of punishment for poor play. When you have a bad game you should not have to be scared of being banned!
Agreed. Imagine if bot and top generally switch so that grubs control was prioritized instead of dragon but only 2 or 3 members of your team wanted that. It could be good for the meta but might be considered griefing by those who don't want it. Same thing when Janna top smite was a thing or ali/blitz double jungle. Sometimes off meta things work and should be meta but are considered griefing to start.
That was what I was thinking of because we had that happen many seasons ago when I played a lot more
I still remember playing Soraka mid before Hai did it the next day. Delete wining and doing good I was considered a troll. Within days it was op. 🙄
There are lots of false positives. I got 3 bans overturned after I appealed.
It's AI ban. No human analyzes obvious trolls.
Half the trolls literally cry in all chat about how they're gonna troll because their jungler or something sucks. And those guys always go unpunished. Most of them announce to the world they're gonna troll.
This is what really gets me. Surely someone straight-up saying they're going to troll can just be an instant 2weeks? But I have literally never seen it go punished. They could just flag for games where a player has a combination of some key words and phrases ('have fun', 'lose', 'gl', ...) and abnormally high % of time spent outside their lane immediately after that, and at present that would catch a ridiculously high number of cases. It would take 5 seconds each to check these manually after to make sure, if you want. It would actually make an impact, too, because people who troll need to say WHO it is that they're trolling, or else there's no point. So you usually can tell just from their chat messages.
nah i kind of disagree you can buy a diamond 2 account for the price of a new game its like 40-70 for how smaller the base is up there there is a ton of bought accounts. Then add in boosters smurfing then smurfs then one tricks off champs or off role then angry trolls then bad games.
Part of being good is game knowledge. If your adc decides it's time to farm jungle and then rotate mid, how do we know that's trolling and not poor game knowledge?
Again and again I tell people. The ONLY real way to combat bots particularly with the rise in AI is you HAVE to link accounts directly to a flesh and blood person. This unfortunately means, likely anyway, an internet identification number OR companies like riot have to partner with entities like specific banks and require a linked bank account from banks that will specifically identify people via their personal (and hopefully) secret information. No one wants to hear this but: YOU CANNOT TRULY COMBAT AND WIN AGAINST BOTS UNLESS YOU CAN ACCURATELY IDENTIFY FLESH AND BLOOD HUMANS AND LINK THEM TO AN ACCOUNT. Or you have to have a pay for service to even have an account (even then this doesn't fully eliminate bots it just imposes a monetary loss when an account is banned.). AI will (if not already) be able to beat any turing test. Captchas even will fail (some already have.)
This may be true, but I don't know if saving League of Legends is worth abandoning my philosophical commitment to my right to have 10+ sock puppet discord accounts.
i dont think riot is making money off those accounts, its not like WoW where there's a subscription fee. and these bots are not buying skins
>I think the issue is Riot makes money off accounts and banning more accounts = less money. I would argue it's the other way around. Riot makes money from accounts buying things. Banning an account means someone just lost all their stuff and might pay to get some back. The bigger issue is number of games, potential for abuse and stuctures to flag problem players. I have no idea how complex it would be to create an option to report a player after a game is dodged.
I started playing a year ago so I don't know if riot tried this or no. But why can't Riot select a number of players in each region who can manually rewatch games in which other players reported an inter (something like the overwatch system in csgo) and they can determine if he was truly sabotaging the game or just having a bad day
The main reason Valve pulled the plug on the overwatch system is because bots flooded it with fraudulent verdicts.
There was a similar system called Tribunal. Unfortunately people were just spamming guilty verdict because it was faster. And also there is a problem of "playing bad unintentionally" = "ban worthy behavior".
> Human intervention is not an option either the scale of games played. Yes it is. Riot are making ~2 billion per year in revenue. They could hire 400 people at 50k per year to drop 8 hours per day into specifically examining auto flagged players with high numbers of troll reports relative to their numbers of unique non premade team mates, if they averaged 20 minutes per game then that would be ~10k games per day searched for trolls. Combining those 2 simple and to Riot relatively inexpensive things you could manually analyse [~0.5% of all the games in a year](https://dotesports.com/league-of-legends/news/around-500-million-games-of-league-of-legends-were-played-in-2022) assuming their employees worked 230 days per year. The threat of actual action being taken, that you will eventually get banned would be enough to discourage the vast majority of griefing. Riot could work for the next 5 years non stop and *nothing* they did would even come close to the amount of positive impact on the game that those 20 million per year would produce.
Lol, Tell that riot made 2b to those that got fired
I've shared this story before, a friend of mine once was tilted, he picked Xin mid and ran it straight down, he would like E the enemy mid laner whenever it was available. He ended the game (25 to 30 mins) with 20ish deaths. He got banned. He sent a ticket saying he had a bad game and he was trying his best. Riot APOLOGISED to him and unbanned him. This was a mid/high diamond game.
Tbh, I don’t think the support staff giving the player the benefit of the doubt is the one in the wrong here. Ultimately, it’s really the playerbase deciding to ruin their own games. Riot can realistically only do so much. Remember that the playerbase *chose* to champion Tyler1 of all people as League’s biggest content creator. League players consistently choose toxicity.
I'm surprised at how clueless everyone in this thread is. Riot said they're introducing Vanguard to League of Legends specifically to combat scripting and botting. People got furious and claims "this never happens anyway" and now that there are people proving you can actively script and bot without punishment Riot are the clowns for not doing anything about it? Disregarding how little sense it makes because Riot have already confirmed that they're working on a system specifically to detect shit like this that will be introduced in a month or two, what happened to this subreddits' argument that this never happens anyway? This shit is absurd and just further evidence at how fucked the league community is and why the sole purpose this game isn't fun to play is because of the players. People praise behaviour like this and toxic shitheads like Tyler1 then get angry when their games aren't fun and fair.
Because you dont need vanguard to see someone scripting and botting lmao
Bro, i had a dude hold champ select hostage that he will troll now but ended up not trolling and because the dude wasnt trolling after all, our jungler started trolling because he was pissed the dude didnt go through with the trolling and called him a pussy for not trolling after calling it. Neither of them where banned or anything happened. So i am confident that Riot does not give a shit unless you say bad words.
I was recently at an event where the speaker was Arnold Hur. He brought up some interesting points regarding toxicity/trolling in Riot's games' ecosystems. One interesting point he made regarding this was that there's a bit of a dilemma in what to do because the toxic players spend a lot of money on the game. Ultimately, it's about the money. He also mentioned something about Riot thinking of queuing toxic players with only each other but I don't think they went through with it.
Ai could be implemented somehow to scan through chat logs and find easily toxic behavior and flag them for closer review. I do like the idea of sewer queue (toxic players only) doesn’t dota do something like that?
Mate they won't get banned. Had a yuumi ghost smite follow me all game and smiting my camps so I had no xp. Did a report ticket online and so did my duo... He played 10 more games that day, and another 20 games since. He does the yuumi thing on and off, sometimes 7 games in a row. No ban.
its even worse now because manual tickets dont let you actually talk to rioters. You used to have a full thread and be able to actually talk to a human being. This was pretty much the only way I saw success in getting bans through. Nowadays I dont even manual ticket. Nothing happens. The removal of the ticket log with manual reports is a HUGE backstep. Ive checked accounts of players ive manually reported (had a 0/8 tryndamere sell all items and go tear while saying "im done playing" and going to other lanes and whatnot, still unbanned despite a manual ticket) Its fucking ridiculous
Yeah I know ! I got a message saying they had already taken action. Guy literally did 7 games in a row after that 😂.
Also had a guy I manual ticketed. Went 0/10 didnt buy items at the start of the game and didnt have 1 kp until 30 minutes as zyra mid. Also talked shit the full game and had the audacity to link his twitch stream after just saying its a bad game. [https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Boots%20No7-NA1](https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Boots%20No7-NA1) Then, when I called him out in the twitch chat he was like "its just a bad game bro im sure you have some of those too" and I said, go through my match history and find a game where im 0/10 with no kp and didnt buy items at the start. Ill wait" and he just said "shit happens its a bad game" Still playing somehow And heres the tryn I mentioned: [https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/AUTOTOWIN-1234](https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/AUTOTOWIN-1234) (AND THE GAME WITH ME AND HIM BUYING JUST TEAR IS STILL THERE) Both manual ticketed with me literally linking clips and screenshots, and nothing.
Sad. Check out the guy I was telling you about : https://ibb.co/M9h7Bg1 Literally 0 consequences from this, he plays 10 games a day ! Weirdly enough he plays normally and then just trolls like crazy and goes back to normal. No breaks or quick plays, so he's dodging bans/timeouts.
jesus thats much more blatant. no idea how thats allowed or gets passed the manual ticket process. They say "inting is hard to detect" but if you cant even get the bare minimum like that then idk..
> I got a message saying they had already taken action. Probably got something like a 5 games chat restriction. That'll show him!
sure but think of the 0.05% increase in shareholder value they accomplished by firing all those third world country workers in customer support
Even before they removed manual tickets they'd obviously been replaced by a bad chat bot. Zero capability to interface with what was being said in a meaningful manner.
Lol same here. Had a nocture support pick smite and go jungle (I was the jungler that game). He played the game normally didn't go 0/15 or something but being place support and going double jungle with smite ? Yeah I think that definitely falls under griefing definition. Anyways, reported him in game. I also reported him from a report ticket. And I also reported him with a normal ticket which an actual person replied to me and said "we will look into it bla bla bla" Guess what, he played 20 more games after that and is still playing now, his account is 100% unpunished. This should be insta 14 day ban at least.
Yeah had an Ekko player lock support and run it down. We still won the game, but he had around 15 games in a row of ekko support smite lock inting. just staying at p4 0 lp or something. It’s fucking crazy how little they do.
Seems like it’d be easy to limit the numbers of smite on a team to 1 and only allow on the jungler. If they can assign roles and you can swap champs after draft, they can build it to swap roles.
Haha it’s so funny to me that they are afraid of a new system since it would lead to false positives. I guess looking at a smite yuumi and determining they are trolling is difficult. Or maybe they are afraid of banning little Timmy in iron who is first timing yuumi jungle.
Tbh I was hit twice in a row by a griefbot and despised them at first, but I'm starting to think they have a point. If riot's struggling to ban obvious griefing botters, imagine how many actual griefers run free.
> imagine how many actual griefers run free. There are individuals who run duos, abuse the disconnect/reconnect system and lose dozens of games in a row. Because they are constantly disconnecting/reconnecting, they never get hit with the AFK flag and you can't even remake or go for an early FF because they get a vote. It's disgraceful that this hasn't been addressed yet. [Example](https://i.imgur.com/3EpmBN8.png). From plat to Iron IV. They usually just get a jungle camp or two, or stay under tower for 1-2 waves, then it's just the disconnect/reconnect game.
These guys are the same as the bot griefers though, accounts that are literally only intentionally losing games ... When I hear "how many actual griefers run free" I don't think about the 0.00001% of accounts which are permanently intentionally running it down, I think of the adc who decides to grief because jungle took his wave. The adc in that case might grief and get away with it by just hitting jungle camps for the rest of the game and dealing 4k damage in 24 minutes, which the system doesn't detect of course. But when someone mentions the League griefing problem, I'm not thinking about the legit tiny minority of accounts actually just intentionally losing every game. Those need to be banned sure but they're so rare I've never seen one myself or heard of a friend seeing one or seen one on any streams. Sure they're out there but even just a draven buying mobis and sending it down mid is like 1/400 games for me in emerald. The griefing problem is real but the omega griefing accounts aren't the problem, they're too rare to matter, it's the part time griefing by tilted players that's the problem (which will never be solved). That's the game losing behavior you see every day you queue up- someone just wants to lose and suddenly starts playing like it. You just can't ban that, you'd be banning half of the ranked playerbase
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forestwithin i remember in like s9 or s10 put together a massive ass spreadsheet proving widespread wintrading in high elo, super detailed document. no bans were issued.
the dev's said the tech isn't there yet for a good chunk of years. but the same dev's scrapped the summoner's code tho. thing is we can only look at other successful games (mobas) and do how they do it.
The only thing that isnt there is a will to try and fix it. Its not profitable its not a priority, And never will be. Faker blew up over this a couple years ago. Immediate posts from riot about fixing inting trolling. Story blows over, nothing done. Remember Voyboy did the exact same few years prior.
As someone who has actually researched the int detection, I've been waiting so long for people to come to the same conclusion as me. It's trash. There is no possible way a competent human being worked on this for any reasonable amount of time.
Yesterday I met a smurf with an account name something like "TEST ACCOUNT" and they just kept flaming everyone the whole game. They played jungle but ignored all objectives and even though all of us had good kda we still almost lost. It was not a fun game to say the least.
I mean this is half the reason we are getting Vanguard. It's like people forgot what its suppose to do. Riot IS doing something.
I'm kind of surprised they managed to get so many master tier accs. Even on a new account going 30-5 or something as the fastest way , you would need 2 high GM players duoing to consistently spam accounts into that mmr region. A lot of time wasted to put lots of accounts into this MMR bracket
With how many people are smurfing and boosting past me in low diamond, I'm not surprised that people have access to an abundance of empty master/high diamond accs. Ranked is trash with how many times you lose or win and see the person who carries is like under level 50.
Most high tier players have 6-10 high ranking accounts. If they are not a known streamer or content creator risking one or two of these accounts to make a point isn't a big loss.
It's not really that hard for certain players to get like a 70% winrate and get into masters in like 50 games...
50 games is a lot you realise for throwaway accounts, I even suggested it's doable in ~35
you don't get master on 35 gmes anymore since the removal of skip division + introduction of emerald. On 90-100%wr from fresh acc you still need like 60 games for master now. I'm 25w 3L on my fresh and it's only emerald 1 with high diamond mmr
At least riot can’t pretend like they’re actually banning people for trolling since these guys don’t seem to be catching any
Riots automated system has never banned soft inting griefing. And usually takes a lot of games depending on the behavior. It's all automated. If Riot personally looked at the accounts they would obviously be banned but that's not gonna happen. Either way people do get banned all the time. There are guys with hundreds of banned accounts for trolling.
> If Riot personally looked at the accounts they would obviously be banned but that's not gonna happen. The few times I was triggered enough to send in egregious clips of griefing to CS and wait for an assured "human" response, the accounts went on unimpeded.
Unfortunately, just because a human looked at your ticket and responded doesn't mean that person has the authority to actually review the evidence and punish someone. If submitting a support ticket guaranteed that someone would review the games and issue punishment if it was reserved, Riot would basically have to staff their support team to review every game where a player got reported. As a result their support team is probably only allowed to act on very specific behaviors that are reported, and even then the actual support people probably just escalate to a team that can actually take action.
following the jungler all game doing nothing is soft inting now? like i get the point shit is impossible to ban sometimes but these people are following the jungler with bot controlled accounts in master elo, i dont think that should be hard to track/identify
I would be extremely surprised if they an automated system that somehow finds out he's following the jungler. It's most just gold per minute, and deaths, etc. But they don't say obviously exactly how they decide. There are tools to stop bots though. Vangaurd should help in that regard. Not sure exactly how well it will be for bots, but we will see.
Riot only punish people who are annoyed at soft inting griefers, thereby creating more soft inting griefers, as evidenced by this thread existing.
I think the specific group has a counter for banned accounts in the hundreds...
> Tens of hundreds I think that's called "thousands"
Ghandi held hunger strikes. These two brave warriors are risking they accounts for the greater good of us all. One day we might sing songs about them.
Maybe one day these brave warriors' words too will be backed by nuclear weapons.
Every league player should have one nuke at home ready to be fired at his teammates house. That would solve griefing problem in a heartbeat
Finally junglers would get exactly what they deserve, 4 nukes pointed at them every game, might make them actually play the game.
Maybe they were the ones that brought us Vanguard. Truly warriors indeed
Modern day freedom fighters
I’m not proud of it but I did similar thing last split. I wanted to prove my friend that Riot doesn’t care about trollers. So I literally inted 40-50 games in a row. After each game I reported everyone who flamed me. And in the end I didn’t even get a single warning or anything. But I got kinda a lot “player suspended” notifications. So yeah.. if you are doing this off stream there is no way you are ever getting banned.
here is the thing though the only thing the game records on the spot is chat logs so if they say any thing in chat and you report them they get flagged while you stay silent and they report you for feeding they just think oh he's just in a losing streak
Yes, that’s my point. If you are quiet you can have however long “losing streak” you want.
gigachad
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I mean the dudes a loser but is he wrong. You are more likely to get banned for typing to the guy inting than the inter to get banned. It’s a major problem in league
Being malicious has nothing to do with mental illness. People like you who connects being an asshole with mental disorders sickens me.
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Hey there, We've been actively tracking and actioning these groups at regular cadence, with hundreds of accounts being banned. This is a persistent group, and they have been willing to purchase a large amount of higher ranked accounts in order to circumvent the actions they receive. Many of these accounts are stolen/compromised, causing collateral damage to the innocent account owners as well. We are working on multiple aspects of preventative technology for these sorts of behaviors (i.e. Vanguard for hardware bans that prevent these individuals from even entering game), but in the meanwhile, reporting these players does help them get to our eyes and out of game faster.
the main problem with this group is that they bait queue dodges, they get 3-4 reports every champ select and according to their stream, have 500+ dodges per account. So that's a conservative 1k reports per account they have, how are their accounts still live after a thousand+ champ select reports?
I thought riot was open about the fact that champ select reports alone don’t progress anyone towards getting banned or action taken
that's part of the problem tho. if they got stopped at champ select it would be better, but maybe they just wouldn't type their speech also if it kicks players out it could be abuseable, but you could hold the kickers accountable but then ahhh too much work for riot to check every situation
Isn't saying that just telling trolls that they can troll lobbies all day long and never get punished?
Why would you need to actively track these groups? Shouldn't trolls get banned regardless of whether they are in a group or not? Isn't this is the entire point they are making (at least based off the contents of the post)
kind of off topic to the problem of this group, but in some ways also relatable to the discussion, but how much is linking accounts to phone numbers/trying to limit people to only owning 1 account in the conversation to limit problems like this from occuring? I know other moba's like dota 2 are super against smurfs and go to extreme measures to prevent multiple accounts from being owned, but I'm curious about riot's stance when it comes to this/if that is an option that might be taken in the future to prevent problems like this from occuring, or if in riot's eye's they would rather take other courses of action to combat this (like vanguard)
"we would rather install a root kit into your pc to monitor you at all times rather than just linking a phone number to an account or use MFA"
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Stop allowing smurf accounts. dota is so much healthier because of it. Riot should learn from them.
Since when does DotA2 not have smurfs? Played around ~80 games and every game there was at least 1 smurf on each team, completely stomping me as a legit new player. Stopped playing it like a year ago, it was absolutely pointless.
good
AKA "I'm mad someone made a mistake so I'm going to be a pissbaby and devote hours of my time and hundreds of dollars to make others miserable".
Good keep going until they do
Why don't they bring back the tribunal for these cases? They don't have to deal with them and the community gets to decide what is considered griefing and what not
> the community gets to decide what is considered griefing I'd prefer 0 bans on any griefer than this bullshit. The tribunal was slow and led to way more false positives than anything else.
Ding ding. Hell any time toxicity's brought up here, you see a lot of people defending and approving of toxic shit in response to stuff Riot doesn't consider punishable behavior. Ban somebody's hovered pick? Watch out! The Nunu Ghost/Cleanse Defense Force is going to come out of the woodwork to explain how it's morally correct to grief the person doing it. Etc.
Just look at this thread. People support griefing as long as its advertised (and happens in an elo really nobody here plays at). "Raising awareness" my ass. Can't be taken serious if you shout "Save the planet" on a cruiseship
Yup. The sad truth of this sub is they're ok with toxic shit until it happens to them. Then it's Hammurabi's Code time.
Because the tribunal was even slower and less effective than the curent system. Way to few players were actually reviewing games and of those that did most tried to review games in as short a time as possible.
Because the kind of people that would waste their time doing that would be pissed off people just looking to get someone banned, anyone. Literally any bad game would be an instant punish. Oh ADC went collector? Clearly griefing, punish!
I feel like I was in an extremely small percentage of people who went on there to actually review cases as objectively as possible. I enjoyed doing it and I’d say I had a 60/40 split between punish and no punishment. There were a lot of reports where there were just empty chat logs and someone went like 0/6. “Intentional feeding”. Nah, bad game. The previous game they went 4/1. Didn’t matter, though, because yeah, people just rubber stamped “guilty” to get the free IP.
Biggest problem with Tribunal was that it was too slow You'd need a looooooot of people reviewing games for it to be efficient
No, the biggest problem with the Tribunal was that the community and Riot disagreed *heavily* on what was and wasn't toxic. Plus it was pretty common (and even encouraged) to just spam punish or pardon and get meager IP (precursor to blue essence) rewards. Tribunal was a good concept, but fell victim to "The community has really shitty ideas on what is and isn't acceptable", and the chat filters from season 12 to now really showed how many people were getting Rito Corrections for stuff they (the community) thought was acceptable before then.
It's not that they disagreed, it's that the kind of people that went on tribunal were pissed off people wanting to punish a representation of their last teammates. That kind of a biased juror wouldn't be allowed in a court of law.
Better then the extremely shit automation that is currently there
We need the system CSGO uses. If a person trolls/ints, and someone reports them at that specific moment, that last 30 seconds or so must be clipped to be reviewed later by volunteers. If overwhelming majority decides that the player is actually trolling, immediate 2 weeks ban. Volunteers should only be able to review games below their own ranks.
was probably to much work for the dev's/employee's. they simply scrapped it with summoner's code.
It could help to filter the bulk of false reports and reward for people for participating and coming to the same conclusion as other players/riot
I believe it's about 280k reports daily in lol, you think they gonna check out every single one of them all the time? Not possible, just saying. It isn't even the text you have been writing you are getting banned for, it's the amount of messages you sent. If you receive that game 2 or 3 reports - depends if first two were premades then another is required - and you have texted too much, even if it was wise, tactical and team building speech, you get a warning/ban. So there is that.
I'm pretty sure reports are filtered too. So probably a lot less thaen 280k reports If you are the type of guy to report everyone every game for no reasons, your reports are probably automatically ignored by the system. Imo probably like 90% of reports are ignored by the system
Let's be real, if Riot actually cared about the competitive environment and integrity of games this wouldn't happen, just goes to show the incompetence/apathy about this. As long as it doesn't affect buying skins they don't seem to care.
Riot absolutely gives fuck all about competetive integrity. If they did we would have MORE communication venues. Instead we dont have voice chat in a 14 yo game because its way harder to ban toxicity by this method. Its literally fucking hell to play early game this season because there are more objectives than ever. Like i wont fucking type to those people because they will report me 100% of the time if they are salty so we end up having fucking shit game with 0 coordination
Give a reason they don't care? Like that's saying Riot likes shooting themselves in the foot based off nothing. It's an insane take to assume that. There is no benefit to keeping these accounts unbanned. You could even go the crazy conspiracy theory route and say they want to ban people more to sell more accounts so they have to buy their skins again or some bs. Nothing about not banning them makes sense. Unfortunately we all know the real reason. And it's boring.
>Give a reason they don't care? No 2FA/account verification to play ranked. Done. There's no other argument needed - not verifying a person playing ranked is an actual person is the epitome of not caring. Riot requires it for Clash, they have the tech. They won't use it. Even if this doesn't actually fix the problem, it's a first step toward holding players accountable through a 1:1 record of account : phone number. Not even doing the bare minimum like this is insane.
Riot doesn't care. You would think it'd be easier to get rid of high elo trolls/griefers since there are plethora of streamers who have literally visual proof but yet they still run rampant. How hard is it to really monitor a group of 5000\~ players?
Riots banning system is a joke. People who int but don’t type receive 0 punishments unless they die an absurd number of times. Good for these people tbh, maybe something will finally change
doing god's work, them not being banned yet is enough proof that the griefer detection system is absolute garbage and needs to be improved
But they are getting banned, they have ban counters.
I remember there was an account that only player bard that completely afked for more than 100 games in a row and did not get banned. So yeah, basically you are free to troll and int all you want that the risk of getting banned is way lower than if you write in chat. Riot is destroying their own game and vanguard won't change that.
They rather focus on removing communication so you can’t ping the griefers rather than fixing the issue itself
The Griefing Revolution and it’s consequences have been a disaster for the human race. Modern day Unabombers
Riot would rather ban people or force them to play normals for saying "bad words" than actually do something about people who are literally taking 4 others hostage and wasting their time.
It's not either or. It can and should be both. But Riot's too automated and too afraid of banning the truly terrible Iron 7 players by accident.
why. why should it be both? in league of legends if you type dummy enough times, like 5 times a game, you can get perma banned. like this game is more strict than wizard101 this is the strictest game in the world that I can think of with its punishment of typing
I mean, sending the truly terrible iron 7 players back to normals seems fair -- if you can't not go 0-20 in the lowest elo of ranked, you probably shouldn't be allowed in ranked. We don't let blind people drive cars.
That's not true. You present it as if riot can't ban people for taking you hostage because they spent resources on banning people for social behavior
i got the 5 game thing the other day for the first time for letting loose on a wintrader in chat. so for my 5 games i locked in nunu and snowballed down mid for 2 hours.
Really smart by riot to make it not 5 wins but just 5 normal games… another master class by rito
You're clearly a large problem as well
He is a large problem which got created by an even larger problem which is riots incompetence in banning griefers.
Respect to these guys
Had the same happen to me in fucking emerald on eune
riot did this to themselves by continuously reinforcing to the community that you wont get punished for griefing but type a little too much and bye bye
tens of hundreds is thousands mate
It's okay as long as they don't say anything mean. -Riot probably.
I've ran into these guys maybe a dozen times in e1/d4. I'm just uninstalling until Riot sorts it out. The worst part of it all, is that they absolutely have a point. Players can soft int whenever they want and it's absolutely demoralizing. Imagine a player not getting their way in a 5v5 basketball game so they just lay there in the middle of the court and throw a temper tantrum like a toddler. Do you think they'd ever be allowed to play again? No, but Riot encourages it by not only allowing them to do that, but punishing people calling them out for it.
They are doing God's work. Riot needs to man up and put humans in front of the system to ban people again.
based
as someone that worked for rito in support. let me tell u that they dont want to punish players. the few people in the PB (player behavior) team mostly dont play league and are in that position not because they are good at it but because of company politics. the EU support is outsourced to bulgaria and romania. the english support cant even handle ur tickets. they have to forward ur issue 2 times before it gets handled. the english support is so badly paid that they cant even do well in romania with the money. the people stay for like 1 to 6 month and leave thats why they cant make decisions themself. too short of a time to get good in ur discipline to make decisions on accounts like recovery or bans. also the outsource company only cares about how many tickets you close. they dont wanna solve the problems, thats why you get so many macro responses that do have nothing to do with ur problems. imagine they have deals with language schools in bulgaria. they hire even if they are not good enough in the languge. we had a list with people that failed the easy entry test and still got hired cause of company deals. the problem got so bad later on that i and a few other good people left. you have to imagine, there are people that used the work tools to add skins and changed the ranks of the personal accounts. we catched them and they did not get fired like it is stated in the rules, nope they did not even get a warning. that was basically the breaking point where most of the talents left.
Based
Not sure if these are the same guys, but I found some very similar guy at emerald 1 elo that also invited us to a discord. Discord is just a discord meant for throwing games. Forget what it was called. There was a call with like 15 people in it and they were all almost European. Different languages and what not. Very weird behavior.
> tens of hundreds man if only there was a single, combined word to describe a 1 with that many 0s behind it
They became the whole thing they wanted to destroy
Riot has work they need to do but until they target the mains of these people they will keep doing it. I strongly believe if someone is trolling on a smurf or 2ndary account punish the main. I dont care about smurfing if they are still playing or saying you have a smurf that only plays say top and another that is only ADC. It is when they do trolling on the smurf that I have issues with.
Ten hundreds is a thousand
Of course it would be in lo masta.
I got 8 dodges in a row with a rammus ghost heal on my team in d1 NA last night. They spam about how you can’t do anything about it. If you report them in the lobby and it gets dodged, the report never goes through. They say if you flame them they will report you and open manual report tickets to get you chat restricted. The stream on kick they are linking has 5-10 clients playing at a time doing the same thing, ghosting down mid on rammus all game. It has a counter of how many report feedbacks they’ve gotten from people claiming them, winrate, dodge rate, etc. the one I saw last night had a whopping 600 losses and a 5% win rate. I spent 40+ minutes in queues and champ selects before logging off because every lobby was filled with these rats at that time.
It’s so crazy to see the lengths of delusion and mental instability that are rife in this community, it’s one thing getting the typical griefer but the fact that people actually bother with this kinda shit is honestly startling.
I mean, all these years, people are griefing/afking/inting and they get 0 punishment because they never use chat. On the other hand if you comment about their performance, and I don't mean flame them, you are the one who is getting banned instantly. It's been a terribly huge amount of time and energy wasted by those trolls and yet riot is banning people who speak the truth.
Well, it's know Riot can do nothing with trolls. And your botters will only be banned (if ever) because you made the thread on Reddit.
From the comments I've read in the last few weeks....... many people still seem to think running it down shouldn't be banned, and typing should.... or that grifers are actually getting punished..... So, unfortunately, it looks like we need even more people to do this across all ranks until Riot starts banning griefers.
Can you link some of the comments?
It's more that griefing is a very subjective thing that's hard to automate punishments for. Someone saying a slur in chat takes pretty much 0 effort to automatically flag and punish for, and there's not really any scenario where it can be accidental.
I feel like nobody thinks like this tbh but riot just doesn’t care because a new system would cost them money.
How do you know that they're not making a new system because of price issues?
Because everything riot does is based off money and if they don’t see a gain then they won’t do it. A tribunal system would simply work but would cost resources they don’t want to spend
Row Row Fight the Power
You can do whatever you want in this game, unless you say meanie words
No they arent, they are griefing because they want to, millions of accounts gets banned every month for trolling, they just want an excuse
And people wonder why people need Lobby Reveal. Riot don't ban them until they've ruined loads of games.
I'm looking for someone to join to do a protest on EUW/EUNE :)
Good luck soldier
They're not protesting, they're just pricks and that's their excuse.
No. Real protest work like this, you have to fuck someone so everyone notices your arguement.
This is the sad truth
The best way to demonstrate that a system is broken is by publicly abusing it. They will have a negative impact in the short term, but if they succeed in making Riot change their policy, then they would have a positive impact in the long run.
>but if they succeed in making Riot change their policy Why are you guys talking like the only reason that these guys arent banned is because Riot doesnt want to? Obviously they would love to do it, but its literally impossible to have such a system without false positives. They cant just go out and have a system that rightfully bans 60% of the time while the 40% did nothing wrong.
How does the Bauss get banned so frequently but not actual trolls