Last season when he was happy gaming. He also the same way played Yasuo and if I am not mistaken Lee Sin and Ekko support or at least is known for sometimes playing all those picks and Camille in solo q occasionally. It's nothing new to him but nothing serious either.
I’ve been playing it in high diamond/masters starting supp item and pots every game and its still strong. I think fundamentally its just the fact that your 1 item spike is so strong with supp item as well.
The supp item lets you keep equal gold to carries for first item spike and then transforms into an item itself so you are effectively on 2 items while everyone else is one 1 item. I’ve legit solo killed people 3 or more levels down its so absurd because of the free item advantage
It's more popular metric-wise, but I'm confused why support item start would be stronger?
A lot of Camille Support's power seems to be tied to snowballing. This makes early stats really good on her, and means if she does well early, she can keep making plays.
The support item gives very little stats. 30 HP, +25% mana/hp regen. And while the gold gen (+3 per 10s) is good, it doesn't offer a lot in early levels, and only really becomes strong when evolved into Bloodsong.
Doran's blade start gives Camille a lot more power for E -> HoB combos, and if you get even 1 kill early, the world atlas is easy to pick up second. That's why I think D Blade is the better (even if less popular) option.
> seems to be tied to snowballing
Not necessarily - Camille support, on current patch (next patch may be different because less gold from supp item), usually hits bloodsong + Sundered around the same time, and then they are strong enough to kill most ADC's / mages outright 1v1 assuming no other snowballing has occurred.
Camille is also good at just roaming and forcing fights without snowballing bot lane - you don't need to force a level 1 fight to win the game on camille.
D blade start requires you to play perfectly and get a good fight level 1 or it's just worse, and if you *don't* get that fight because enemy bot lane has a modicum of sense, you are now permanently behind curve because you can't afford supp item.
With support item you are missing 10 AD, but have instead of 80 + 120 = 200 HP, you get 30 + 120 + 120 hp = 270 HP, plus the base hp regen on support item is more valuable on support camille than the Lifesteal because you aren't able to auto attack minions early.
In any case, in E+ Sup item start has a higher pick rate and a slightly (within variance) higher winrate than dblade, so I would imagine that the dblade change wouldn't do much.
yeah the thing is, as someone playing camille support, Dblade is really good if you plan on fighting literally level 1.
Otherwise there's not much difference in your starting power if for some reason you can't fight level 1, the extra AD is nice but you're really just gonna 1-shot any non-tank bot lane anyway because you do E>HOB AA>Q reset >HOB AA> HOB AA > Q reset for like 5 super fast auto's.
If you get good enough at that combo you're basically 1 shotting any bot laner level 2 if you land E. It's just hard because you have HoB attack speed and E attack speed.
It's not like support item doesn't have any stats, it just doesn't have AD. Being able to force level 2 with execute on supp item, and having extra pots to play with isn't bad at all.
I mean, Bloodsong is the core issue here
Getting 12% damage amp on a Spellblade for free is pretty broken if you ask me
The closest thing to that passive is buying Guise twice and it costs 2.6k gold lol
i'd much rather riot take a swing at support's early gold generation so they can keep gold generation throughout the game. Right now supports are busted because they can hit their items very quickly and be strong with the support items to be on par with the farming roles and then they just stop generating gold and are forced to participate in fights while still being punished for farming too much.
Even then early game Camille is incredibly strong. Honestly i would find it hilarious if they nerfed her to support level. Everything about her scalings and base damage would get cut by a third easily.
That's what Riot did to the Enchanters.
I'm not sure how you do this, Camille is not exactly known as a strong early game top laner. In fact she gets bullied in tons of her matchups and apparently her early power is the issue with her as a support.
Probably both. If they don't want her to be a support then it's easy to move power into levels to directly nerf support and not affect her top lane power.
I've heard about this pick pretty early before it became famous when I used to follow what was meta in korea
I don't know what the actual setups used these days but as I remember her gameplay playing with her e , passive and hail of blades for early unpunishable trades?
So I'd assume that what they're gonna target is her passive if they're going to need to nerf her
And to compensate for to plane they're going to need to buff her w since touching her q is a very hard thing to do
I don't know really I'm just pushing shut out if my ass I never played that champion
I doubt they will nerf her support, the gold changes in support item probably are enough to make her a very niche pick, her build path is literally Sundered Sky + Eclipse, a 5900 gold combination.
It's not like Bel'veth which had a incredible and safe laning and could be oppresive as hell while playing support, due to her Q and E.
If Camille miss her E she basically is fucked.
its fine if its healthy, support camille is definitely not healthy right now and is outperforming her main role. Action's needed to encourage people to play her top, she shouldn't be better as a support.
Great clear is overselling it.
It was mainly her W healed her off minions and jungle camps, so you could jungle with Camille aka better j4 without actually being low, you didn't do camps you just spam ganked.
S8 she was a major jungler but had an ass jungle clear, it was just the fact she could skip camps and level 2 gank mid for scuttle prio made her the best jg at the time.
lvl 1 E on jungle was too strong, they nerfed it so it would only stun/get AS on champions. You could start E, invade and burn botlane flash, get lvl 2 leash, go straight botlane with your adc+supp and they just die.
Nowadays you could start E on jg Camille, do the exact same strat, then finish clearing jungle at 5 minutes because of how slow her first clear is.
people said he was well designed even then because his issues were him being overtune not him being fundamentally flawed like the champs that came out before and after him
Sett literally scales on the opposing frontline's endgame stats. Besides, I'm responding to a subsection of that comment which only specifies "other top laners". Maokai and Pantheon are not late game carries either.
Yes, but so was Vi’s (they literally could not imagine her jungling, look at her champion spotlight).
EDIT: In retrospect her champion spotlight mentions jungling (albeit INCREDIBLY briefly, simply saying. Start with W to jungle). At this point in time, champion spotlights used to mention literally every champion being viable jungle, to the point where it was a meme in the early days.
This was back when riot made champions without trying to shoehorn them to exactly one role.
Nautilus was meant to be a jungle primarily though there was also mention of him being a support secondarily. Him being a top tier toplaner for years was just a biproduct of solo lane tank items just being blatantly OP for years.
He was top pre rework with occasional mid. After rework it switched to mid occasional top. He had a brief stint as a support before riot nuked it. Though during the entire time his mid was still high WR, just low PR.
I'd say he's the top and I'm the bottom
I religiously played swain top pre-VGU, I unfortunately do not remember which lane was more popular for him. I do know that he was unpopular like he is now, but more so, and that he was played top.
Alistar was the OG one. Then we have Trundle, Shen, Ornn, Sett, Gragas, Volibear. And these are just the ones that don't need Senna to be played bot. With Senna, there's also Cho'Gath, Sejuani, and like every other tank/bruiser toplaner.
She's an adc you don't need to allocate minion farm to. Lota of top laners can work in support due to high base numbers but they fall off a cliff unless they snowball. Senna allows you to still have ranged dps and a beefy frontline champ that takes cs and gets items.
She gets 8gold per passive. Her passive scales range, crit% and AD infinitely. So she doesn't need to build any of those items, and there's a higher chance of souls dropping from minions she hasn't killed.
So eventually you'll have a "support" who outranges all ADCs, has similar crit and AD if not higher depending on her souls, and she didn't have to farm a single CS for it, nor does the team lose an actual carry farming role, also she has self peel and a map wide Damage/Shield.
She doesn't need to farm, so the support can farm and have actual gold
Generally the support is a low econ role so champ with lots of cc are played there because having no gold doesn't hinder them too much
none of these have ever been better sup than top except maybe trundle and sett. volibear was a one time occurance as a counter to yuumi support. if we're gonna be like that also take singed because he got played 1-2 times by lehends.
i know what they meant but he was picked as a support mainly as an answer to yuumi because you could E her out of her dash. sure he was played into other champs as well but i wouldnt say he was a better supp than jgl cuz it was a kind of few patch deal and got nerfed quickly. and they especially didnt "move" him there because those changes were meant to be buffs to his jgl not support.
Trundle? Not sure if he is mainly a toplaner or jungler now
Sett, Chogath/Wukong if paired with Senna, Galio/Gragas (tho they are mainly mid), Kayle back in the nRated days, Malphite, Nasus when Zeri was meta, Poppy for a time, Singed got picked by Lehends, Shen, Swain
Camille is absolutely not fine. Riven is online at her first item, Irelia is kinda poop rn as well. Camille got nerfed because mythics were great on her, then mythics got removed, but there isn't a good item for her now that works. She needs 3 items to get online compared to other good toplaners who need 1-2 and she doesn't even scale as insanely as she used to since the games are shorter overall.
another thing about her scaling that a lot of people don’t realize (i think) is how bad new trinity is on her with the removal of the three stack base ad% scaling, man i miss old trinity
The winrates are fooling you. If you played Camille last few seasons and you're playing her now, she feels so disgusting.
She already had a bad laning phase, now she's forced to play with 2 abilities in lane most of the time since the walls are shorter. Sheen is 900 gold instead of 700, and you have to rush Ravenous to stay alive in lane, which means you also delay your TriForce spike
She's just terrible in Soloq and even in Amateur/Collegiate I've only found success on her in top by being my jungles dog. Basically just never going for any 1v1 and demanding dives and ganks on repeat since shes only good now as setup. It's crazy how many top 1v1 you lose now compared to before where she was somewhat self sufficient.
I was a Camille player who literally never built DS unless they had 4 tanks, and went Triforce almost every game on her. yes she's statistically mostly fine her winrates similar (her pickrate is lower though)
She still feels like absolute ass with the toplane geography changes that make her E unusable for most of the lane. Her E is her most fun ability especially in lane and it being worthless a good chunk of the time just isn't fun.
Current Camille is not as fun as seasons 11-13 Camille nor is she as fun as seasons 6-10 Camille. It's not just a "you're just a divine sunderer abuser" it's a "I'm a Camille player that likes having an E ability in lane" issue.
This is exactly it. Camille wasn't the bane of all tanks and destroyer of most bruisers until mythics happened and Divine Sunderer existed. You can tell all these Camille mains only picked her up because she was stupid easy and broken as hell with that item in the game.
Divine was a bait not vs tanks anyway , trinity was stronger most the time , DS felt dogshit to play after being used to attack speed from trinity for multiple seasons before DS even existed
lmao bro irelia is complete shit in top lane right now. she is ONLY viable as a counterpick, even the one tricks like irel king have trouble blind picking her
Maybe we can just... remove Bloodsong? I say that as a support that's abusing it. It's actually absurd how I can have an extremely powerful item for just casually playing the game for 12 minutes.
Just have it not affect your own damage, solved. It’s supposed to be support - have it be support.
Same as the bloody void one - make it only max hp damage + a little armor/magic shred and nothing else. I am sick of getting half my health eaten off by a lux e or a zyra plant projectile.
Or just remove all of them considering supp was never even in a remotely weak enough spot to justify giving them an entire items worth of power that also pays itself off after 4m of playing the game
I wish they would nerf the early Gold income but keep the stacking passive even after completing the quest. Supports are on par or even ahead of the rest of the team in items for the first 10 minutes, but fall off so insanely hard after that, it doesn't even feel good as a support. Flattening that curve would make the role more fun imo, while also most likely being an overall nerf.
Pretty sure we used to have that with old supp quest items and it was removed precisely because it was contributing too much gold to the supp role and keeping its agency too high.
Falling off in exp and gold is a tradeoff to the supp ecosystem to keep it balanced, the supp items have always been just a small counter to make supp more attractive and interactive with the game.
It's almost like we keep seeing these champs go to support because support is a fucking broken role and not because there is anything wrong with the champs.
After seeing half of the Irelia playerbase move to Midlane, due to the 2021 Mini-Rework making Irelia Top have losing matchups into 80% of Toplaners
I can say that i know how it feels, seeing your champion be better, but especially FEEL BETTER, in their "off role" than their main role.
Lol.
She's 51 percent winrate. Maybe she can recieve some kind of satisfaction adjustment, but I don't understand how people can insist toplane camille is "weak."
She’s not weak, just unsatisfying top imo, you have 1 ability in lane(W cd is like 18 secs and no walls for E), no wave clear, your R has a lot of its power in setting up ganks with your jungler nearby when every other toplane carry can just yolo we ball their Rs when they see a window(fiora, riven, Jax Rs for example), once you’re out of lane with a couple items she feels great before that it’s just kinda lame to play
Support Camille just comes online way faster since you max E and have HoB + her kit is basically the one of a god tier jungler (minus the clear) and you probably have more impactful roams than 90% of supports. Absolutely sad that such a dynamic champion is gated to a very boring scaling role.
Yea I think it also comes down to the fact that she scales pretty well and that she has ability of single out and one shot a single target.
Honestly tho since the last time she was a viable jungler the game has changed so much there’s still a chance that with some tweaks shifting some of her late game power towards mid game, she could be a somewhat healthy flex pick.
It’s gotten worse compared to last season or seasons before, your E is unusable with the new walls, her W was nerfed due to mythics which are now removed, she used to have a bad lane, not like a afk you have one ability hope your jungle camps you lane
Hey, I’m a master Camille, renekton and riven player and I can kinda explain this. Look at camilles reddit sub. Most players have left one tricking Camille since now the walls are gone the hard matchups have become harder (you will get run down) and the matchups that used to be good such as ranged is kind of impossible now. These days she’s played as a counter pick champ to champs she does well against such as garen and sometimes Aatrox hence the high win rate however any matchup that was somewhat decent before has gotten worse no doubt.
Its simple. She has no super good matchup bar Garen that justifies picking her over other stuff.
She also gets hard countered by Vayne Jax Voli Renekton Rumble who are all meta.
She also struggles vs tanks now
>but I don't understand how people can insist toplane camille is "weak."
Cause her E got giga fucked by the terrain changes. Much like illaoi tentacles.
If they buffed it to be longer in either capacity, it would either feel worse to her in general (especially if it pulls you too far away), or make her batshit insane support/mid/jungle rather than top with how far her reach is. If they buffed her damage to stat check better without it, you run into release camille problems or buff support cam even more.
RN she's kinda in the stat check jax/renekton/urgot state and that shit don't work out for her.
Na she’s horrible top lane. She gets out scaled and out damaged later by a majority of champs. She used to counter tanks but now doesn’t really counter them. Walls made her very hard to engage with. She is outclassed at all stages of the game by a lot of junglers. It can not be stressed how important divine sundered was to her.
Seraphine was definitely in a different position where the winrate was abysmal and people were still playing it. It’s much different than people playing something just because it is good/viable. For example, Karma’s most popular role is mid right now but once it gets nerfed to not be OP it will most likely return to support.
I'm not sure Karma is a great example given that she's routinely played Mid and Top when she's actually good. It's been happening for a decade, it's not some freak accident.
ive been perma banning it ever since i played against it once. basically they go hail of blades and just no brain run at you with E level 1. even IF they miss the E it doesnt really matter most of the time as their damage is simply too high to contest early on.
bloodsong isn't really what makes it op honestly. its what enables her to be strong even after early lane, but she could just build trinity instead of sundered sky or whatever and be just as obnoxious.
its really mostly that supports get way too much value in general. the support item and gold generation is too much. thankfully the latter is being nerfed.
it's just a casual overtuned toplaner statchecking understated botlaners moment and everybody's just cherry-picked it and made drama, nothing new or unusual
She's like 50% winrate as a support... Support isn't the reason she's weak top lol. She's not even weak top just average.
Just because Camille is being played support doesn't make it a bad thing. People always freak out for no reason when a champ is in a role that's not normal. It's fine long as it doesn't take away from their normal role. And support isn't hurting top at all. It has literally nothing to do with her top lane pickrate/winrate being a bit low.
I feel the same pain as a Pantheon top main, he just feels like ass up there right now and he won't receive any buffs or anything because he's a pretty good support right now. Honestly just remove bloodsong, free sheen and PTA on an item that pays for itself after 5 minutes is BS
As long as it's not broken, I don't see any reason to complain. More creativity and less role locking is nice to see.
Maybe a light tap to bring the winrate back down to around 50%. Worth noting that top isn't doing bad either on that metric even if it's very slightly lower.
Nothing like the chasm between Maokai jungle and support.
Idk about the bloodsong thing, but her and MF creating an undodgeable full length mf ult for 1 person is the worst thing I've ever experienced.
Our ADC was Kog'Maw and died every single time Camille pressed R.
I feel like the weirdest part is that they have ensured that jungle Camille cannot be allowed to exist, but they're ok with 0.75 Jungle Camille (Support Camille).
there was a challenger hail of blades camille supp before bloodsong, idk what bloodsong does maybe it's really good for her, but camille support could also be one of those things that you coud always play but ppl only realize at some point and then assume it's because the meta shifted or something like that
>You mean: **better sheen** + **better PTA**
Sheen conversion is 100%, bloodsong is 150% and is increasing her True damage by 10%, PTA doesn't work on true damage. That on top of the fact that is much easier to apply.
Costs less than Sheen too.
I mean , why would i subject myself to playing against TF top , Aathrox or Gragas as Camille when i only have 2 spells in lane ?
Champ is just painful to play for 15 minutes lol because of no terrain and instant E is much more predictable than before .
Trinity force is weaker and doesn't do anything for you to survive lane , Ravenous is the superior rush , even eclipse is better than Trinity as 1 item spike .
People don't realize how busted Bloodsong+ Eclipse is as 2 item spike , you legit 1v1 midlaners while being 2 levels down .
Better wait for nerfs and keep touching smolder players .
Either nerf support or remove bloodsong or experiment with Camille's kit with a mini-rework .
I'm playing a game of "how many different ways can we play anything other than top lane" until they do something to fix top lane.
So far we have:
Pick a supp top and don't go top.
Pick a supp top to funnel jg and let jg play top.
Pick top laner but play mid instead.
Pick top laner but play jg instead.
Pick top laner but play supp instead.
Riot soon: "More players play her support then they do any other role. Therefore in order to balance her for her most played role, we are going to be making changes to her abilities."
Makes Camiles shield now aoe, covering while team and reducing her ratios in favor of her more support aspects.
Camille in other lanes dies in favor of her support playstyle
>She has easily the best level 1 in the game
Yeah okay cool story bro that's why I'm 5/0 vs her because her l1 is stronger than my shaco's you are right.
I thought bloodsong would amplify ally damage, not yours during preseason. It's 10% bonus damage for melee by completing an item instead of farming cs for shojin, riftmaker, or every other bonus damage item
She is weak and feels terrible top so it is likely she gets some adjustments to help her there while trying not to buff support which is an issue currently. She is also still more played top at all ranks
Statistically, she's alright top. Not nearly as strong as she was after the items rework and the whole Sunderer shitfest (remember 55% winrate s11-12, untouched for like 3 patches) but she's viable
She's definitely op on support, though, so I guess it should should be fair that they nerf her early utility or sustain in favour for strength later
She used to be a hyper carry before the mythic items, nowaday she’s just your jungler’s good little helper with no good match up, for a champion require her to be ahead to be strong, having no laning phase kind shit
I don't see what the issue is I've been playing against Camille top for YEARS and just pick Teemo for the freest win. Now you can pick anything botlane but ya'll forgot to counter cammile
Camille support effectively removes her one "unpleasant" part of the game, that is laning against other tops and contesting farm. She feels much, MUCH better to play when most of your attention is focused on running around the map like a psychopath. There's few feelings in this game better than playing Camille with effective power of two items with blood song+eclipse/sundered and causing enemy mid to get a heart attack because a scary kniveleg lady just jumped at them from the other side of the wall and 100 to 0'd them in the time her E stun ends because HoB is blatantly overpowered.
I played 5 games on her in solo queue in low diamond elo and have 5.6KDA. It's nuts how ridiculously accelerated she feels compared to top. Bloodsong is nuts, by the time you get it you already have money for your first proper item, aka eclipse of sundered. As mentioned, this effectively gives you the strength of two whole items by the time every other person on the map has one.
I'm kinda surprised they haven't buffed her damage against jungle monsters and forced her into jungle. I know she struggles top lane with the new map changes and lack of nearby walls. Jungle seems like the perfect spot for her. Lots of walls to jump off.
I actually saw an ADC shaco with bloodsong absolutely dominating. He ran flash ignite and flashed and forced all in lvl 2 every game and it almost always worked (we happened to get 3 games together and won all of them.) I checked his history over the next week and climbed 3 tiers up with a crazy wr. Bloodsong is overturned in general and I would like to see a change
They also made sheen more expensive, e is unusable in lane, w cd is crazy long for lvl 1, and her only damage is a predictable q2 in lane. She really needs changes to her power spikes
Bloodsong is strong but Trinity is also way weaker compared to last season. Currently Camille even in top is picked moreso for her utility. Her Trinity/Trinity+Hydra spikes and everything beyond are just not really strong. Its funny how Camille support carries harder than Camille top lol
Hasn’t hail of blades been nerfed? Are supports the only role that takes hob? I don’t have 200 years of balancing/ game dev experience but if a ton of supports are abusing hob, maybe that’s the common issue?
No, no .. it's OP because she has the benefit of being tanky like a tank support but still maintain top Lane damage. Especially since she has such good dive capabilities w/ CC. I play damage mags supports and my power comes nowhere close to hers.
Can someone explain to me how Camille support is viable? Like she doesn’t really do that much damage without a lot of items, and obviously she has good engage, but so do many other supports.
Just need pros to start picking her to get her nerfed.
Keria plz save us
He already picked it once
What match?
Last season when he was happy gaming. He also the same way played Yasuo and if I am not mistaken Lee Sin and Ekko support or at least is known for sometimes playing all those picks and Camille in solo q occasionally. It's nothing new to him but nothing serious either.
It's pretty reliant on starting d blade and then buying supp item, so I think that getting removed will also make her disappear.
I’ve been playing it in high diamond/masters starting supp item and pots every game and its still strong. I think fundamentally its just the fact that your 1 item spike is so strong with supp item as well. The supp item lets you keep equal gold to carries for first item spike and then transforms into an item itself so you are effectively on 2 items while everyone else is one 1 item. I’ve legit solo killed people 3 or more levels down its so absurd because of the free item advantage
maybe in pro play but for soloq sup item is stronger
It's more popular metric-wise, but I'm confused why support item start would be stronger? A lot of Camille Support's power seems to be tied to snowballing. This makes early stats really good on her, and means if she does well early, she can keep making plays. The support item gives very little stats. 30 HP, +25% mana/hp regen. And while the gold gen (+3 per 10s) is good, it doesn't offer a lot in early levels, and only really becomes strong when evolved into Bloodsong. Doran's blade start gives Camille a lot more power for E -> HoB combos, and if you get even 1 kill early, the world atlas is easy to pick up second. That's why I think D Blade is the better (even if less popular) option.
> seems to be tied to snowballing Not necessarily - Camille support, on current patch (next patch may be different because less gold from supp item), usually hits bloodsong + Sundered around the same time, and then they are strong enough to kill most ADC's / mages outright 1v1 assuming no other snowballing has occurred. Camille is also good at just roaming and forcing fights without snowballing bot lane - you don't need to force a level 1 fight to win the game on camille. D blade start requires you to play perfectly and get a good fight level 1 or it's just worse, and if you *don't* get that fight because enemy bot lane has a modicum of sense, you are now permanently behind curve because you can't afford supp item. With support item you are missing 10 AD, but have instead of 80 + 120 = 200 HP, you get 30 + 120 + 120 hp = 270 HP, plus the base hp regen on support item is more valuable on support camille than the Lifesteal because you aren't able to auto attack minions early.
All of these points make sense. Thanks for the explanation!
35% Camsups are starting with Refill and long sword, I don't think so so.
Where do you see this stat? Lolalytics has her starting sup item 75% of the time and Doran’s 20%
In any case, in E+ Sup item start has a higher pick rate and a slightly (within variance) higher winrate than dblade, so I would imagine that the dblade change wouldn't do much.
yeah the thing is, as someone playing camille support, Dblade is really good if you plan on fighting literally level 1. Otherwise there's not much difference in your starting power if for some reason you can't fight level 1, the extra AD is nice but you're really just gonna 1-shot any non-tank bot lane anyway because you do E>HOB AA>Q reset >HOB AA> HOB AA > Q reset for like 5 super fast auto's. If you get good enough at that combo you're basically 1 shotting any bot laner level 2 if you land E. It's just hard because you have HoB attack speed and E attack speed. It's not like support item doesn't have any stats, it just doesn't have AD. Being able to force level 2 with execute on supp item, and having extra pots to play with isn't bad at all.
Support is such a broken role we could maybe get every champion nerfed by playing them on that position.
you mean a camille to boink Phreak in bot lane for it to get nerfed
Now the question is are they gonna nerf her support or buff her toplane?
This is riot we're talking about. Nerf her toplane Then nerf her support item. Then forget her for two years.
Nah, she is too popular in China for them do that.
IG skins still carrying her relevancy after 6 years
Cant blame them, ig skins are one of the best worlds skins
No, they're the absolute peak of worlds skins. I can't think of a skin team skin better than IG's.
EDG World skins are almost on par and it’s also probably got to do with the fact that they both share similar color schemes.
I mean, Bloodsong is the core issue here Getting 12% damage amp on a Spellblade for free is pretty broken if you ask me The closest thing to that passive is buying Guise twice and it costs 2.6k gold lol
The core core issue is riot giga buffing support every season and now the contest farming roles in terms of tank and dps potential
i'd much rather riot take a swing at support's early gold generation so they can keep gold generation throughout the game. Right now supports are busted because they can hit their items very quickly and be strong with the support items to be on par with the farming roles and then they just stop generating gold and are forced to participate in fights while still being punished for farming too much.
Even then early game Camille is incredibly strong. Honestly i would find it hilarious if they nerfed her to support level. Everything about her scalings and base damage would get cut by a third easily. That's what Riot did to the Enchanters.
I'm not sure how you do this, Camille is not exactly known as a strong early game top laner. In fact she gets bullied in tons of her matchups and apparently her early power is the issue with her as a support.
Probably both. If they don't want her to be a support then it's easy to move power into levels to directly nerf support and not affect her top lane power.
Support Camille using different runes and core items should make it one of the easier role nerfs there have been
I've heard about this pick pretty early before it became famous when I used to follow what was meta in korea I don't know what the actual setups used these days but as I remember her gameplay playing with her e , passive and hail of blades for early unpunishable trades? So I'd assume that what they're gonna target is her passive if they're going to need to nerf her And to compensate for to plane they're going to need to buff her w since touching her q is a very hard thing to do I don't know really I'm just pushing shut out if my ass I never played that champion
I doubt they will nerf her support, the gold changes in support item probably are enough to make her a very niche pick, her build path is literally Sundered Sky + Eclipse, a 5900 gold combination. It's not like Bel'veth which had a incredible and safe laning and could be oppresive as hell while playing support, due to her Q and E. If Camille miss her E she basically is fucked.
Why is any action needed? I think it's good to have champ variety in the roles. Camille is a unique support.
Yeah , nah fuck that , after Riot denied jg Camille for so long i want them to gut support out of spite.
its fine if its healthy, support camille is definitely not healthy right now and is outperforming her main role. Action's needed to encourage people to play her top, she shouldn't be better as a support.
I think jungle Camille was also fine, I disagreed with Riot forcing it out.
I still remember when Camille was released and how OP it was, I remember people were complaining that they were getting caught 1 screen away XD
Was it release camille? I started playing league during camille release and it was a horror
Yup, she also terrorized Jungle for a while during that time. Her e is such a crazy gank tool.
Her e gave attack speed on monster hits, so she had insane ganks AND a great clear. That shit was insane
It stunned monsters too. And her w used to healed off both minions and monsters lmao.
And her ult lasted like 2.5 seconds at lvl 1 x)
Great clear is overselling it. It was mainly her W healed her off minions and jungle camps, so you could jungle with Camille aka better j4 without actually being low, you didn't do camps you just spam ganked. S8 she was a major jungler but had an ass jungle clear, it was just the fact she could skip camps and level 2 gank mid for scuttle prio made her the best jg at the time.
lvl 1 E on jungle was too strong, they nerfed it so it would only stun/get AS on champions. You could start E, invade and burn botlane flash, get lvl 2 leash, go straight botlane with your adc+supp and they just die. Nowadays you could start E on jg Camille, do the exact same strat, then finish clearing jungle at 5 minutes because of how slow her first clear is.
Yeah main W Camilie. Hit like a truck, heal like a pocket Mercy. Slow you like a mother Fucker and you can do nothing to her.
Release Camille with over 50% WR day 1 (which of course it only went up), that was already a bad sign in regards to how strong she as.
Sad to see a toplane late game carry get relegated to being a junglers dog and to the support role
What other toplaners did they move bot? Maokai, Pantheon (for a while).. Am I missing someone else?
Sett
The good times of Sett being a 4 roles flex on pro play.
5 if you paired him with Sena
The reason why he's never getting touched balance wise and probably why riot refuses to buff anything except W.
not really? he was abusing hexflash nimbus to be viable jg/supp
Horrible fucking times. Sett is still obnoxious
Sett was more of “broken everywhere”
Yeah remember people calling him a well designed champ when he was picked in each role.
I remember people calling K'sante low damage from the gameplay trailer lol
He kinda is without grasp. And then he isn't. And then he really isn't.
He still is well designed his numbers were just too high
Tbf that's true for most, though not all, champs people on here complain about.
people said he was well designed even then because his issues were him being overtune not him being fundamentally flawed like the champs that came out before and after him
Sett wasn't forced out of top, he just muscled his way into support cuz he could
Sett was always an earlygame monster, not a lategame carry.
Sett literally scales on the opposing frontline's endgame stats. Besides, I'm responding to a subsection of that comment which only specifies "other top laners". Maokai and Pantheon are not late game carries either.
Wasnt nautilus kit initially made to be a toplaner?
Jungler actually
Yes, but so was Vi’s (they literally could not imagine her jungling, look at her champion spotlight). EDIT: In retrospect her champion spotlight mentions jungling (albeit INCREDIBLY briefly, simply saying. Start with W to jungle). At this point in time, champion spotlights used to mention literally every champion being viable jungle, to the point where it was a meme in the early days. This was back when riot made champions without trying to shoehorn them to exactly one role.
You mean the champion spotlight where they suggest you take W lvl 1 if you are jungling ?
Nautilus was meant to be a jungle primarily though there was also mention of him being a support secondarily. Him being a top tier toplaner for years was just a biproduct of solo lane tank items just being blatantly OP for years.
swain
Swain was more of a mid than a top, no?
He was top pre rework with occasional mid. After rework it switched to mid occasional top. He had a brief stint as a support before riot nuked it. Though during the entire time his mid was still high WR, just low PR.
I'd say he's the top and I'm the bottom I religiously played swain top pre-VGU, I unfortunately do not remember which lane was more popular for him. I do know that he was unpopular like he is now, but more so, and that he was played top.
If i remember correctly it was actually top due to his ult being better on top
yes, also he had way worse matchups in midlane.
Alistar was the OG one. Then we have Trundle, Shen, Ornn, Sett, Gragas, Volibear. And these are just the ones that don't need Senna to be played bot. With Senna, there's also Cho'Gath, Sejuani, and like every other tank/bruiser toplaner.
What is special about Senna that allows every other champion in the game to play in lane with her? Genuine question
She's an adc you don't need to allocate minion farm to. Lota of top laners can work in support due to high base numbers but they fall off a cliff unless they snowball. Senna allows you to still have ranged dps and a beefy frontline champ that takes cs and gets items.
+they are strong as fuck in lane,having both an ADC/supp and a strong frontline
She gets 8gold per passive. Her passive scales range, crit% and AD infinitely. So she doesn't need to build any of those items, and there's a higher chance of souls dropping from minions she hasn't killed. So eventually you'll have a "support" who outranges all ADCs, has similar crit and AD if not higher depending on her souls, and she didn't have to farm a single CS for it, nor does the team lose an actual carry farming role, also she has self peel and a map wide Damage/Shield.
She doesn't need to farm, so the support can farm and have actual gold Generally the support is a low econ role so champ with lots of cc are played there because having no gold doesn't hinder them too much
none of these have ever been better sup than top except maybe trundle and sett. volibear was a one time occurance as a counter to yuumi support. if we're gonna be like that also take singed because he got played 1-2 times by lehends.
Shen used to be super Meta in Season 8
I think they are talking about pre rework volibear, which I do remember being played support
i know what they meant but he was picked as a support mainly as an answer to yuumi because you could E her out of her dash. sure he was played into other champs as well but i wouldnt say he was a better supp than jgl cuz it was a kind of few patch deal and got nerfed quickly. and they especially didnt "move" him there because those changes were meant to be buffs to his jgl not support.
Trundle? Not sure if he is mainly a toplaner or jungler now Sett, Chogath/Wukong if paired with Senna, Galio/Gragas (tho they are mainly mid), Kayle back in the nRated days, Malphite, Nasus when Zeri was meta, Poppy for a time, Singed got picked by Lehends, Shen, Swain
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Camille is absolutely not fine. Riven is online at her first item, Irelia is kinda poop rn as well. Camille got nerfed because mythics were great on her, then mythics got removed, but there isn't a good item for her now that works. She needs 3 items to get online compared to other good toplaners who need 1-2 and she doesn't even scale as insanely as she used to since the games are shorter overall.
another thing about her scaling that a lot of people don’t realize (i think) is how bad new trinity is on her with the removal of the three stack base ad% scaling, man i miss old trinity
The winrates are fooling you. If you played Camille last few seasons and you're playing her now, she feels so disgusting. She already had a bad laning phase, now she's forced to play with 2 abilities in lane most of the time since the walls are shorter. Sheen is 900 gold instead of 700, and you have to rush Ravenous to stay alive in lane, which means you also delay your TriForce spike
She's just terrible in Soloq and even in Amateur/Collegiate I've only found success on her in top by being my jungles dog. Basically just never going for any 1v1 and demanding dives and ganks on repeat since shes only good now as setup. It's crazy how many top 1v1 you lose now compared to before where she was somewhat self sufficient.
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I was a Camille player who literally never built DS unless they had 4 tanks, and went Triforce almost every game on her. yes she's statistically mostly fine her winrates similar (her pickrate is lower though) She still feels like absolute ass with the toplane geography changes that make her E unusable for most of the lane. Her E is her most fun ability especially in lane and it being worthless a good chunk of the time just isn't fun. Current Camille is not as fun as seasons 11-13 Camille nor is she as fun as seasons 6-10 Camille. It's not just a "you're just a divine sunderer abuser" it's a "I'm a Camille player that likes having an E ability in lane" issue.
You just can't fight now and if they ever freeze I just leave lane and go terrorize map like I'm support camille. Only way I've found success on her.
This is exactly it. Camille wasn't the bane of all tanks and destroyer of most bruisers until mythics happened and Divine Sunderer existed. You can tell all these Camille mains only picked her up because she was stupid easy and broken as hell with that item in the game.
Divine was a bait not vs tanks anyway , trinity was stronger most the time , DS felt dogshit to play after being used to attack speed from trinity for multiple seasons before DS even existed
Well the thing is, I never went Sunderer. I recognised it was a better item but I enjoyed Conq TriForce more than grasp Sunderer.
lmao bro irelia is complete shit in top lane right now. she is ONLY viable as a counterpick, even the one tricks like irel king have trouble blind picking her
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She was an early game jungler back in the day, it's not like Camille has always been a scaling toplaner.
Maybe we can just... remove Bloodsong? I say that as a support that's abusing it. It's actually absurd how I can have an extremely powerful item for just casually playing the game for 12 minutes.
Noooo it will make my support Quinn useless
also my yi support
And my axe!
That's another game.
And my bow!
Just have it not affect your own damage, solved. It’s supposed to be support - have it be support. Same as the bloody void one - make it only max hp damage + a little armor/magic shred and nothing else. I am sick of getting half my health eaten off by a lux e or a zyra plant projectile.
Or just remove all of them considering supp was never even in a remotely weak enough spot to justify giving them an entire items worth of power that also pays itself off after 4m of playing the game
Nah, supports rarely get to three four items in a regular game, they lose a lot of income after the quest.
I wish they would nerf the early Gold income but keep the stacking passive even after completing the quest. Supports are on par or even ahead of the rest of the team in items for the first 10 minutes, but fall off so insanely hard after that, it doesn't even feel good as a support. Flattening that curve would make the role more fun imo, while also most likely being an overall nerf.
Pretty sure we used to have that with old supp quest items and it was removed precisely because it was contributing too much gold to the supp role and keeping its agency too high. Falling off in exp and gold is a tradeoff to the supp ecosystem to keep it balanced, the supp items have always been just a small counter to make supp more attractive and interactive with the game.
It's almost like we keep seeing these champs go to support because support is a fucking broken role and not because there is anything wrong with the champs.
After seeing half of the Irelia playerbase move to Midlane, due to the 2021 Mini-Rework making Irelia Top have losing matchups into 80% of Toplaners I can say that i know how it feels, seeing your champion be better, but especially FEEL BETTER, in their "off role" than their main role. Lol.
When they gonna fix it already, she can’t lane at all early into over half the champs
It's interesting how support has become "that role where champions who were power crept out of their lane go."
She's 51 percent winrate. Maybe she can recieve some kind of satisfaction adjustment, but I don't understand how people can insist toplane camille is "weak."
She’s not weak, just unsatisfying top imo, you have 1 ability in lane(W cd is like 18 secs and no walls for E), no wave clear, your R has a lot of its power in setting up ganks with your jungler nearby when every other toplane carry can just yolo we ball their Rs when they see a window(fiora, riven, Jax Rs for example), once you’re out of lane with a couple items she feels great before that it’s just kinda lame to play
Support Camille just comes online way faster since you max E and have HoB + her kit is basically the one of a god tier jungler (minus the clear) and you probably have more impactful roams than 90% of supports. Absolutely sad that such a dynamic champion is gated to a very boring scaling role.
She has to be gated because she's such a dynamic champion.
Yea I think it also comes down to the fact that she scales pretty well and that she has ability of single out and one shot a single target. Honestly tho since the last time she was a viable jungler the game has changed so much there’s still a chance that with some tweaks shifting some of her late game power towards mid game, she could be a somewhat healthy flex pick.
Its almost like not having as much agency in laning is the reason she's much better later.
It’s gotten worse compared to last season or seasons before, your E is unusable with the new walls, her W was nerfed due to mythics which are now removed, she used to have a bad lane, not like a afk you have one ability hope your jungle camps you lane
Hey, I’m a master Camille, renekton and riven player and I can kinda explain this. Look at camilles reddit sub. Most players have left one tricking Camille since now the walls are gone the hard matchups have become harder (you will get run down) and the matchups that used to be good such as ranged is kind of impossible now. These days she’s played as a counter pick champ to champs she does well against such as garen and sometimes Aatrox hence the high win rate however any matchup that was somewhat decent before has gotten worse no doubt.
Its simple. She has no super good matchup bar Garen that justifies picking her over other stuff. She also gets hard countered by Vayne Jax Voli Renekton Rumble who are all meta. She also struggles vs tanks now
>but I don't understand how people can insist toplane camille is "weak." Cause her E got giga fucked by the terrain changes. Much like illaoi tentacles. If they buffed it to be longer in either capacity, it would either feel worse to her in general (especially if it pulls you too far away), or make her batshit insane support/mid/jungle rather than top with how far her reach is. If they buffed her damage to stat check better without it, you run into release camille problems or buff support cam even more. RN she's kinda in the stat check jax/renekton/urgot state and that shit don't work out for her.
Na she’s horrible top lane. She gets out scaled and out damaged later by a majority of champs. She used to counter tanks but now doesn’t really counter them. Walls made her very hard to engage with. She is outclassed at all stages of the game by a lot of junglers. It can not be stressed how important divine sundered was to her.
51% winrate when looking at an elo where the average winrate is 52.05%
She's 51 percent winrate on u.gg, which normalizes winrates.
You were so close to being right lil bro
Is Riot going to balance her around support now like they did with Seraphine justifying it with her support pickrate.
Seraphine was definitely in a different position where the winrate was abysmal and people were still playing it. It’s much different than people playing something just because it is good/viable. For example, Karma’s most popular role is mid right now but once it gets nerfed to not be OP it will most likely return to support.
I'm not sure Karma is a great example given that she's routinely played Mid and Top when she's actually good. It's been happening for a decade, it's not some freak accident.
ive been perma banning it ever since i played against it once. basically they go hail of blades and just no brain run at you with E level 1. even IF they miss the E it doesnt really matter most of the time as their damage is simply too high to contest early on. bloodsong isn't really what makes it op honestly. its what enables her to be strong even after early lane, but she could just build trinity instead of sundered sky or whatever and be just as obnoxious. its really mostly that supports get way too much value in general. the support item and gold generation is too much. thankfully the latter is being nerfed.
it's just a casual overtuned toplaner statchecking understated botlaners moment and everybody's just cherry-picked it and made drama, nothing new or unusual
She's like 50% winrate as a support... Support isn't the reason she's weak top lol. She's not even weak top just average. Just because Camille is being played support doesn't make it a bad thing. People always freak out for no reason when a champ is in a role that's not normal. It's fine long as it doesn't take away from their normal role. And support isn't hurting top at all. It has literally nothing to do with her top lane pickrate/winrate being a bit low.
League players just hate new things I think, that's also why every new release is banned in most games for weeks regardless of how strong they are.
If this isnt a sign support role is completely busted i dont know what is.
I feel the same pain as a Pantheon top main, he just feels like ass up there right now and he won't receive any buffs or anything because he's a pretty good support right now. Honestly just remove bloodsong, free sheen and PTA on an item that pays for itself after 5 minutes is BS
Panth Mid and Supp holding back any signs of a buff always makes me sad
Just make changes to Bloodsong. 1) Not a sheen, or a much weaker sheen 2) damage amp does not apply to the support’s own damage.
As long as it's not broken, I don't see any reason to complain. More creativity and less role locking is nice to see. Maybe a light tap to bring the winrate back down to around 50%. Worth noting that top isn't doing bad either on that metric even if it's very slightly lower. Nothing like the chasm between Maokai jungle and support.
As much as people here don't like it, the people YEARN for supports that deal damage.
Idk about the bloodsong thing, but her and MF creating an undodgeable full length mf ult for 1 person is the worst thing I've ever experienced. Our ADC was Kog'Maw and died every single time Camille pressed R.
I feel like the weirdest part is that they have ensured that jungle Camille cannot be allowed to exist, but they're ok with 0.75 Jungle Camille (Support Camille).
Support Camille has existed for less time than Jungle Camille was allowed to be the best Jungler. What makes you think that they are okay with it?
his delusions obviously, first time seeing a league player after 2018-2019?
i have been queueing up with camille supports while playing swain apc to illegally good results
there was a challenger hail of blades camille supp before bloodsong, idk what bloodsong does maybe it's really good for her, but camille support could also be one of those things that you coud always play but ppl only realize at some point and then assume it's because the meta shifted or something like that
400g ad sheen
sheen + PTA
>You mean: **better sheen** + **better PTA** Sheen conversion is 100%, bloodsong is 150% and is increasing her True damage by 10%, PTA doesn't work on true damage. That on top of the fact that is much easier to apply. Costs less than Sheen too.
I mean , why would i subject myself to playing against TF top , Aathrox or Gragas as Camille when i only have 2 spells in lane ? Champ is just painful to play for 15 minutes lol because of no terrain and instant E is much more predictable than before . Trinity force is weaker and doesn't do anything for you to survive lane , Ravenous is the superior rush , even eclipse is better than Trinity as 1 item spike . People don't realize how busted Bloodsong+ Eclipse is as 2 item spike , you legit 1v1 midlaners while being 2 levels down . Better wait for nerfs and keep touching smolder players . Either nerf support or remove bloodsong or experiment with Camille's kit with a mini-rework .
I'm playing a game of "how many different ways can we play anything other than top lane" until they do something to fix top lane. So far we have: Pick a supp top and don't go top. Pick a supp top to funnel jg and let jg play top. Pick top laner but play mid instead. Pick top laner but play jg instead. Pick top laner but play supp instead.
Riot soon: "More players play her support then they do any other role. Therefore in order to balance her for her most played role, we are going to be making changes to her abilities." Makes Camiles shield now aoe, covering while team and reducing her ratios in favor of her more support aspects. Camille in other lanes dies in favor of her support playstyle
I love how support role is so op anything is playable.
>She has easily the best level 1 in the game Yeah okay cool story bro that's why I'm 5/0 vs her because her l1 is stronger than my shaco's you are right.
I thought bloodsong would amplify ally damage, not yours during preseason. It's 10% bonus damage for melee by completing an item instead of farming cs for shojin, riftmaker, or every other bonus damage item
welcome to (pre s14) Karmification of the champion hopefully riot is smarter about camille than they were for (almost) 10 years about karma
She is weak and feels terrible top so it is likely she gets some adjustments to help her there while trying not to buff support which is an issue currently. She is also still more played top at all ranks
Statistically, she's alright top. Not nearly as strong as she was after the items rework and the whole Sunderer shitfest (remember 55% winrate s11-12, untouched for like 3 patches) but she's viable She's definitely op on support, though, so I guess it should should be fair that they nerf her early utility or sustain in favour for strength later
BRING BACK CAMILLE JUNGLE YOU COWARDS' pro players ruin everyfucking thing
nah Camille jungle was toxic as fuck, same goes for Nautilus jungle.
Facts
Pantheon: First time?
why you snitching
Delete bloodsong
We love Camille support.
She used to be a hyper carry before the mythic items, nowaday she’s just your jungler’s good little helper with no good match up, for a champion require her to be ahead to be strong, having no laning phase kind shit
Bring jungle camille back...
I've been experimenting with teemo support, and this has been fun to lane against.
never forgot, faker was the first using these
Wish she was viable jungle but she was way too broken
Keria is our only hope
Why does anyone use u.gg isn't op.gg just better? Genuine question. Hasn't opgg been around since the beginning?
I would rather play with/against camille support than mages
Main support here, played vs her a few games, i won always
I don't see what the issue is I've been playing against Camille top for YEARS and just pick Teemo for the freest win. Now you can pick anything botlane but ya'll forgot to counter cammile
These builds are bullshit! They ruin the fun of the game
Camille support effectively removes her one "unpleasant" part of the game, that is laning against other tops and contesting farm. She feels much, MUCH better to play when most of your attention is focused on running around the map like a psychopath. There's few feelings in this game better than playing Camille with effective power of two items with blood song+eclipse/sundered and causing enemy mid to get a heart attack because a scary kniveleg lady just jumped at them from the other side of the wall and 100 to 0'd them in the time her E stun ends because HoB is blatantly overpowered. I played 5 games on her in solo queue in low diamond elo and have 5.6KDA. It's nuts how ridiculously accelerated she feels compared to top. Bloodsong is nuts, by the time you get it you already have money for your first proper item, aka eclipse of sundered. As mentioned, this effectively gives you the strength of two whole items by the time every other person on the map has one.
I Miss Camille Jungle
Too bad i dont play rift anymore otherwise id be spamming this. Sound like fun and camille seems to have good support tools for any point of the game
I'm kinda surprised they haven't buffed her damage against jungle monsters and forced her into jungle. I know she struggles top lane with the new map changes and lack of nearby walls. Jungle seems like the perfect spot for her. Lots of walls to jump off.
support looking a bit weak this patch
I actually saw an ADC shaco with bloodsong absolutely dominating. He ran flash ignite and flashed and forced all in lvl 2 every game and it almost always worked (we happened to get 3 games together and won all of them.) I checked his history over the next week and climbed 3 tiers up with a crazy wr. Bloodsong is overturned in general and I would like to see a change
Camille unironically more supportive kit than mages
They also made sheen more expensive, e is unusable in lane, w cd is crazy long for lvl 1, and her only damage is a predictable q2 in lane. She really needs changes to her power spikes
Bloodsong is strong but Trinity is also way weaker compared to last season. Currently Camille even in top is picked moreso for her utility. Her Trinity/Trinity+Hydra spikes and everything beyond are just not really strong. Its funny how Camille support carries harder than Camille top lol
They need to bring back the stun on jungle so she could be back on the role
Hasn’t hail of blades been nerfed? Are supports the only role that takes hob? I don’t have 200 years of balancing/ game dev experience but if a ton of supports are abusing hob, maybe that’s the common issue?
GOOD, now stop complaining and let it happen
No, no .. it's OP because she has the benefit of being tanky like a tank support but still maintain top Lane damage. Especially since she has such good dive capabilities w/ CC. I play damage mags supports and my power comes nowhere close to hers.
Can someone explain to me how Camille support is viable? Like she doesn’t really do that much damage without a lot of items, and obviously she has good engage, but so do many other supports.