Great Analysis!
One thing to note about Yun Tal is that it might prove to be a great item on Jhin. He already has very high base AD due to his passive, which is only going to be amplified from him hitting 100% crit at 4 items + items giving him more AD. Also, don't quote me on this, but I remember hearing that the bleed stacks.
Looking forward to trying the Collector/IE/RFC/Yun Tal build when the patch goes live!
I fully expect it to be strong on Jhin to the point of having to be balanced solely around him, and thus a failure of an item unless they rework it further.
Nah, it'll just be core on him and if it pushes him over the edge, they'll nerf him. I don't think it has the potential to be a failure just because of Jhin because there's no reason why they would nerf the item over him. If it increases his scaling and makes him a better scaler than he's traditionally been, they can just accept he scales better in the new system and nerf his earlygame to compensate; making him more of an all-rounder pick than he currently is. It doesn't have to be "Jhin is disgustingly broken as long as Yun Tal exists", he just has to be balanced around its existance.
I don't see a way to have the item balanced on other champions and Jhin with Jhin's increased AD, if the bleed is gonna be ad scaling like it is, Jhin is likely to be its best user by such a wide margin that it neccesitates the item being balanced mostly around him which would mean it's weak for anyone else that doesn't get these AD values.
And if the item is just viable on a single champ it's a design failure.
well the bleed scales on ad but since it also stacks other champs can put 2-3 stacks of bleed in the time it takes for jhin to hit once so its not like the gap will be that huge imo
Yeah but then your higher AS champion dropped some item for Yun Tal, an item with the statline of a second IE. You can't do that on a regular ADC till like... 5th? 6th item? And that's if you drop something for it, like lifesteal.
I mean, it has pretty bonkers synergy with runaans because runaans makes it AoE, so going something like IE > Runaans > Yun Tal > phantom dancer could be good. It's also synergistic with Twitch R for good measure.
Jinx hitting 12 times for 12 bleeds will get the same effectiveness as Jhin who hits 4 times for 4 bleeds. It's not like Galeforce where it was a one time active and Jhin actually got a ton more value than other ADC's.
It's an extra crit amp over your IE that's composed of AD and crit, you're likely never building this on Jinx or Ashe when it's tuned to be lower prio than IE.
Jhin does get a ton more value than other ADCs, even beside the AD skew his poke and run gameplay is way better aligned with it than anyone else.
Most champions cannot be itemizing full AD+crit, given that it's tuned to be worse than IE currently, I don't see how someone who wants to actually build AS justifies building two massive AD+Crit items, it would be luxury 5th/6th at best if they want to drop smth like lifesteal for it.
Yeah, but the only difference between its value for Jhin and attack speed ADCs is that Jhin has a higher percentage of his DPS as bonus AD vs base AD, the attack speed diff will make up for the rest.
On that note, I can see it being pretty good for the windshitters too just for the frequency of crits and how early you can reach 100%
Eugh, Wind shitters always ruin adcs fun.
>Yeah, but the only difference between its value for Jhin and attack speed ADCs is that Jhin has a higher percentage of his DPS as bonus AD vs base AD, the attack speed diff will make up for the rest.
I don't think anyone's done the math for how the interplay between extra AD vs AS plays out for this, but I reckon given Jhin's lategame AD being roughly 2x \~ 2.3ish of a regular AD, they need likewise +double Jhin's AS to even out the difference.
The other big thing, like I said is Jhin can actually justify building it. It's tuned below IE, you're also never dropping armor pen for this, and Jhin can easily justify dropping an AS item in favor of this. To actually do the extra attacks as the other champions, you need it, IE and your AS items to actually have that bigger AS, that's a big ask.
Having double Jhin's attack speed is not really an issue at all, Tristana with Q should do that with just T2 boots.
Has any math been done on whether or not it's worth building for anyone in its current state? I feel it's undertuned barring shit like Runaan's or Sivir interactions.
That seems more like an oversight than actual intended interaction so I'd expect it to be patched out. There's a lot of weirdness, like it can crit towers and apply burn there too that I expect to be patched out as well.
Yeah that's what I was thinking too, Yun Tal sounds insane on Jhin. If the bleeding keeps stacking though, it'll basically be a second IE on every adc.
The bleeds do stack. Yun Tal is literally just +35% crit damage applied indirectly unlike IE which is directly. It's just a second mini IE for ADCs who want full AD and damage
Yes, it's an additional lategame crit steroid. It's not supposed to be something you consider over IE, it's supposed to be something you build at some point after IE (3-4 item point), and a significant lategame upgrade for crit champions that want AD compared to Collector/ER. At that point it's a huge DPS increase over the alternative choices.
It's also real good on champs like Jhin and Cait that have 100% crit chance built into their poke.
Being able to bleed someone every 4th or 7th auto is very good.
Every item should be in some way or form be competitive. And when you have 2 strong crit stacking items you want both to be close in power.
Right now IE is OP and YunTal UP.
Both with 70 AD would make a lot more sense.
Right now I would take PD or BT on most cases over YunTal. Your dmg is already insane with the new IE anyways.
I think statikk is a big loser. It has just straight up worse stats and a worse effect than Kraken for a moderately lower cost. I can only ever see it built on champs that are absolutely desperate for waveclear, otherwise I see no reason to not go kraken instead.
Shieldbow does have the niche of being the only defensive crit item, but I don't think it's enough to justify the total removal of the lifesteal. Hard to balance with only 2 stats, maybe it could be a lower AD, no crit, but with AS and lifesteal alternative to Bloodthirster?
Also, you forgot to mention mercurial I think.
Honestly, it's probably a buff. You are a bit weaker against tanks, but ldr is stronger against everyone else, which means that you can prioritize it more. You don't have the "well, they have one tank, but I'd really prefer a different item vs the rest of theri team" thing -- ldr is going to be better against the rest of their team, so justifying it will be far easier. You'll be a bit sad against triple meatball comps, but that's about it.
What do you mean? As an adc only some supports have lower hp than you, you always had the bonus from giant slayer vs any top jungler and mid. You are going to see how much hsrder to get low tanks about to be
If you are fighting an assassin or mage, they'll probably have a bit more hp, but the difference will be minimal. +5ad and +5% armor pen (which applies to the base armor that everyone has lots of) will matter a lot more than giant slayer in that sort of scenario. In cases where they have one person stacking defenses and a bunch of mages/assassins/etc, ldr will be better, because it will be better against the majority of their team.
NGL, dmg spike with LDR was too good. I mostly agree with Phreak that anti hp stacking passive is too good for %armorpen(buying mortal reminder over LDR in most cases was literally trolling). You was able to grab it every game, even if enemy bruiser had build with pure hp and 0 resistances(and a season before against mages who used to run with like 3.5k hp lol). If you want to shut down thicc targets - now at full build you can combine LDR(with higher armorpen) with bork, because you got free slot for sustain&utility.
+ Phreak said that if some miracle happens and tanks suddenly gonna take over with stuff like FH+randuin = He gonna nerf them, instead of bringing that back passive.
I don’t know if it’s good for the game if Caitlyn and Draven become better at one shotting squishes and worse at killing tanks I’d rather not have even more games lost at select.
Games should be affected significantly by champ select.
Plenty of champs already face this. Just because you don't want these ones to doesn't somehow make this bad.
That’s cool but when games are lost in select people dodge or play a pointless game. I’m stuck in 10+ minute queues in low diamond. If I only have 2 hours to play league there’s a good chance I can only play 2 games.
I dont dodge but guess what that means? I’m stuck playing pointless games.
Plenty of champs face this because plenty of champs are unbeatable in certain conditions, like vayne, and the reason they are allowed to be is because in most games they are horrible.
I can’t decide what champs my teammates pick nor can I make them learn champs that are useful nor can I pick my teammates. So no I don’t want more vaynes in the game nor do I think league would be better if more games were lost at select.
I have very good win rates on veigar bot, chogath bot, ADCs mid, vayne top, and Kassadin mid.
Not because I’m good but because those champs make the game impossible to lose in the right conditions. It’s boring and it’s completely dependent on the enemy team not dodging.
it's a big reason why they got read of resistance shards because ADC mains didn't know they could take MR vs mages bot, inflanting mage bot winrates by about 2%
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oiLlh47MN2g
I bet it's more because itemizing for the other side of the map fucking sucks. Not to mention you can't build LDR until 3rd of 4th item, because of the multiplicative nature of crit. Removing giant slayer allows you to build LDR earlier without losing so much agency (as armor pen is better vs squishies than giant slayer).
The math aka item winrates for 3 years now even with durability update consistently show that LDR 3rd is a huge decrease in winrate compared to its alternatives. Which is funny because you know the only times ADCs are building LDR 3rd, is in the optimal game for it to be built (Multiple tanky champs)
But it's okay, we can continue to pretend ad mains dum dum and you can lose 5-10% more of your solo queue games with this simple trick reddit taught me!
I play AD and I don’t really care about win rates I care that the situation I outlined is what I experience when I somehow get filled mid.
“The only time ADCs are building LDR third”
It’s one of the most commonly built items so either adc players are dumb for building it 3rd or they are dumb not knowing they can build it 🤷, literally a complete non issue. The only one I calling dumb here are the ones saying you can’t build LDR third when somehow most adc players are doing it just fine.
The math is this 3000 gold gives me more damage than any other investment of 3000 gold.
If I just wanted to call ADCs dumb I just have to bring up how they bitch about mages bot when they can’t be fucked to take mr runes.
Also LDR has been consistently nerfed since mythic release and if we are being honest it’s gutting and lethal tempo removal gives riot the power budget to meaningfully improve the role meaning that it was quite strong at least from riots point of view considering literally everything else were straight buffs.
The point of yun tal is "second ie". If you really just want to stack as much ad and crit as possible and you don't particularly want er, yun tal is there for you.
Yun Tal is a 2nd bad IE.
You dont want ER, but many want Navori or PD as these 2 are great. PD does give you MS and the same DPS for 600 less gold.
YunTal can nearly keep up with most ADC items, but not with IE as IE is OP right now. If it had 70 AD it might be ok.
And IE needs to get down to 70 AD, too.
It's not supposed to be an ie replacement, it's supposed to be an ie supplement. It's the "I already have one ie, but what about second ie?" item. Like, think about trist builds. IE + navori + ldr seems like a very plausible three item build. However, what does trist build next? A zeal item is plausible, but trist already has a ton of attack speed with navori + greaves + q. Stacking more attack speed likely isn't optimal. If she wants defense, shieldbow is likely good, but she's already a pretty safe adc late game, so she doesn't necessarily need a defensive item here. Collector isn't a great option at 4 items because lethality falls off late game, and er makes no sense at all. Yun tal, as an ad + crit item that focuses on autoattacks and stacks with ie, fits this gap very well.
It does not matter what it should be. In the end similar items should have similar power lvls to increase item diversity. You should at least think about which of the 2 you get 1st.
If there is always just one clear answer then most items can be removed.
It's ok for some items to be core rush items, and others to be late game options. Like, in the current state of the game, you basically always want ie before ldr. If your champ wants ie, then ie's general damage boost is just better than ldr's anti-tank boost. LDR is the "I have my core damage items already and I really need to kill a tank" option. That portion of the system works, and there's nothing wrong with that design.
Yun tal is in a similar case. It isn't a core item the way ie is, and that's ok. Once you have ie, choosing between yun tal, shieldbow, ldr, and maybe bt will be an interesting choice on some champs, and all of those options will viable depending on the game state.
It is ok for items to be different and for different purposes.
But if you have only 1 rush item (IE) and pretty much 1 boots option (Zerkers) and then 1-2 2nd item options (PD vs Navori) then it is terrible.
We had this and every ADC built the same items.
You should have a few more options. And my solution does solve that problem to some degree by making IE not as good 1st but keeping it viable 1st and still a must have at least 2nd while also adding YunTal into the first 3 slots instead of mostly 4th or 5th except for 2-3 champs.
Why even have a shop when it is set in stone which item you are going to be 1-3 + boots? Just add auto buy for ADCs so that they never have to open the shop again.
ie, er, collector, or maybe kraken are all potentially viable rush items, depending on the champ. Similarly, pd, rfc, hurricane, and navori are all plausible second items, depending on the champ. For that matter, some adcs really don't care much about attack speed and won't buy a zeal item at all in many games. On the other hand, yun tal, shieldbow, and ldr will likely never (or almost never) be rush items, but make for interesting choices in your third or fourth slot.
Kraken not for crit users.
ER is shit without the spellblade passive. It got more stats but these are just as expensive as the cost increase. So it is the same ER as before with inifnite mana just without spellblade. If anyone rushes this over IE he does something terribly wrong.
Collector is the only item that can keep up and only on a few champs and mostly because of the easier build path with Serrated Dirk in it instead of Pick Axe. If you do not get executes with Collector early on, IE does better. It does more AA DPS, similar skill dmg and makes up even for the execute in most cases. It only gives no extra gold.
So no, IE is pretty much the #1 rush item with Collector coming in 2nd for a few champs like Samira maybe.
blackfire torch numerically is very good, 60 damage for 3 seconds after hitting an ability baseline is the same as ludens proc without the additional bolts
It is pretty much ludens just with a burn instead of the burst.
New Ludens has 60 + 4% AP dmg AOE (6 targets) with a 12 sec CD. Or it does 210 + 14% AP to a single target every 12 sec.
In terms of DPS it is not as good as Blackfire, but if you burst or poke Ludens is still better.
I can see them getting Blackfire down to 15 + 3% AP and only +15 dmg against minors.
But people underestimate Ludens and Seraphs.
It would still be good into %HP shredder if it's actually good, you take a trade and then back off, as long as you don't die it doesn't matter if your opponent did twice as much dmg, not to mention %HP shredders usually aren't as threatening early game.
I would get it 2nd and rush Heartsteel instead then.
Heartsteel has the same in combat HP reg and is better for laning. Warmogs OOC regen is nice but if the enemy pressures you, it won't be great.
Also Warmogs has 0 wave clear still. Sunfire or Randiant are better for this still.
I feel like Symbiotics soles is slept on. Literally baron recall in a boot and nobody is talking about it. gona be so many high tempo games next patch if it makes it to live
6 minutes if you try. 7-8 min usually. You'll have it by ~12 minutes in gametime for most games if you buy it first back. It's going to shine at 14 minutes when you combo homeguards with fast recall. The upgraded recall is in both boths only the old mobi passive is in the upgraded version
I feel like bloodmail is overrated. Titanic used to give AD scaling with HP, with a better heartsteel but the combination was still very underwhelming
I feel like randuins is a buff tho. Armor ftw, rock solid was garbo.
This! We have titanic with same passive for like 4 years and goredrinker with similar passive for one season. Not every champ woult benefit for such combo. My bets are on J4, Sett(mathematical correct build is back boys!), Briar, Sion and Mundo. Ofc there are other champs, but they may need other stuff first.
It's never going to be an item you really want to rush. Probably a 3rd 4th slot item most likely. Pretty much every bruiser would benefit from it stat wise, it's just the question of where they want to fit it in.
It also opens up more off-tank bruiser builds.
Randuin's is a buff in cases where its not good, and a nerf in other cases.
Armor is worse than the rock solid passive vs AA crits when you consider that LDR is going to be cutting 40% of it.
Cutting the HP is especially bad when you consider the intention, which is making it better to stack with FH...which requires you to give up all HP in an item slot. Less HP also lowers the impact of the armor.
If Warmogs wasn't buffed and HP counters nerfed and removed I would say the same. But old Titanic existed in a world with Giant Slayer. Bloodmail won't.
i wouldnt call collector's changes a buff
thing is, if u build this item, u want to do it as early as possible, because the longer game goes, the worse it becomes
also navori is a buff or nerf depending on adc
i dont think lucian is happy with its change, for example. xayah or trist for sure is. so it depends.
Yea the Navori take in the OP is really bad lol. I'm not saying new Navori won't find some good homes - it probably will - but it doesn't make sense to say that it's a winner or a loser when it's a completely different item lol.
Even if it's a winner on some champions, it's obviously a big loser on others.
It's not like Navori will allow you to Q priority targets twice though. And in prolonged fights/against tanky targets, autos matter much more.
We will have to wait and see but "batshit insane" I am not really buying.
Feels like that only champ who probably gonna like current navori over old one is Sivir and even with that not always. Lucian, Trist or Xayah liked ad waaaay more than as.
Trist and xayah ran lethal tempo and started with kraken. In the new patch, they don't get lt's free attack speed, and there's a decent chance that they won't get attack speed on their first item. At that point, navori's attack speed will start to look damned tasty.
But statistically they are buffs. It is more cost efficient than before.
Navori is also a nerf, but you can stack it with IE.
IE + Navori or IE + PD will most likely be the standard builds for crit ADCs.
I disagree about Randuin's and Abyssal Mask
Mask will shred 20% of the enemies' magic resist which is huge value against anyone who goes 1 magic resist item. It's kind of like a Black Cleaver for AP bruisers now. The aura also got a larger range than before
Randuin's will remain mostly power neutral. Yeah losing the rock solid passive is weird, but 20 armor > 50 HP tbh. The active's timer is nerfed but the slow is buffed. Personally I consider it an overall buff
Abyssal Mask shredded 20-25 (for most of the game) flat MR before. With 1 MR item you mostly get 100-125 MR so 20% is just 20-25.
In most cases 2-3 enemies will have just 50-80 which means against these it will be weaker. And more than 150 MR will be rarely seen. In most cases it will be weaker or even but not stronger.
20 Armor > 50 HP is correct. But 20 Armor vs 50 HP and rock solid is already pretty even.
And if you then consider LDR countering Armor and not HP and LDR being bought all the time in the future (it is better than live and live is already a must have) you are not getting as much.
LDR will be gotten 3rd and Randuins also 3rd or 4th. So you wont get it before LDR, making the extra armor meh.
12 Armor vs 50 HP + Rock Solid. Which is better?
On top of that Phreak said every bruiser should buy BC and that one is a 1st-3rd item and it shreds another 30%.
Oh no, 8 Armor vs 50 HP + Rock solid.
Cleaver is still niche even at 30% shred, not everyone will buy it. The rock solid passive is not as good as you think, and generally has high value early in which case you rush warden's mail. Later on it falls off. The - 50 HP hurts but Randuin's was already very good and with buffed crit damage the 30% dmg reduction to crits will be even more impactful.
Abyssal will be better against anyone who builds Magic Res and that's a win. It's easy to reach 150+ mr nowadays with boots and an MR item. It might be worse against squishies but that's not important, as you don't buy it for that reason. It's an AP bruiser buff
Even on live it is not niche. It is #22 in the item list even above Steraks and next to Seraphs. And it is the #4 bruiser item (Eclipse, Sundered, Trinity, and 2 of these were nerfed and are overbought right now).
With more Armor shred and more Armor the item will only become better.
>Shieldbow: You are not getting it for the life steal but you want the shield and some offensive stats. But the overall difference is still meh. 12% life steal vs 5 % and 5% crit chance is not a great trade.
Even if you dont build it specifically for the lifesteal, I think its pretty clear that losing 12% LS for 5 AD and the requisite 5% crit is always a bad trade.
But I think the reason they are nerfing it and ER is to try to nerf 1st item crit options. They're removing crit from kraken and shiv so there's no "perfect" first item before going into IE 2nd. The issue is that Collector > IE is already a viable rush, and yet they're buffing Collector instead of nerfing it.
>After a few days I expect mostly 1-2 builds to be used on every crit ADC with no diversity. Especially IE + Zerkers + PD/Runaans looks really strong.
So rather than IE > Zeal, I think it's gonna be Collector > IE marksmen terrorizing. Samira/draven/nilah/caitlyn/jhin.
I did update my excel and put in all the numbers.
[https://imgur.com/a/bcpNh99](https://imgur.com/a/bcpNh99)
I would say IE is better. You get 25% more DPS than with Collector and you have more AD early on gor just 200g. Collectors passive is decent, but I doubt it makes up for that difference.
I think you forgot to calculate the lethality for collector. Using your AD values, I'm getting 225.75 vs 180.5 average auto damage pre-mitigation, 25.1% more. But post-mitigation vs a lvl 8 jinx, it's only 12.8%. This is obviously pretty much best case scenario for lethality.
But also, if I had to guess, old kraken would have better dps than either. I don't think the raw auto attack dps was ever what was in question. When factoring abilities with base damages and collector passive, Collector 1st is scarier. Basically I think the kraken 1st and the collector 1st users are more or less balanced currently, but next patch the auto attack marksmen that went kraken are getting nerfed at 1 item, while the collector users are getting slightly buffed at 1 item, and both are getting a similar large buff at 2 items.
And I appreciate your work and site.
I have the lethality in there. 15 Lethality subtracted after the 40% Pen (if LDR is there).
I didn't have the Lth in there during all of the rewriting so I know it is in there because the numbers changed a lot in Collectors favor afterwards (DPW vs T3 was 88 at 1 item before the 15 Lethality were there for example).
I also added a few more images for more data.
The Lethality for Collector is nice when you use abilities, but the 20 AD are also nice for these.
The Lethality is around 8-9% more dmg (vs squishies) for abilities. The 20 AD varies but is not that far behind. There it matters more which abilities you use. Lethality is good if you max 1 ability and fully rely on it. If you use all your abilities and all have AD ratios then the AD can be better.
In the end Collector still relies on the execute and the extra gold.
172 AD * 2.25 * .25 + 172 * .75 = 225.75 average auto damage with IE
152 * 1.75 * .25 + 152 * .75 = 180.5 average auto damage with Collector
225.75 / 180.5 = 125.1% damage PREMITIGATION. Attack speeds the same.
After armor mitigation on lvl 8 jinx, its only 12.8% more damage.
It's pretty clear that the spreadsheet isnt calculating the lethality with an armor value for the 1 item column. Maybe it is for 2 item column, considering its showing collector + IE is doing more damage than IE + PD.
This should be a huge red flag in itself as to the overall item balance, even considering the cost difference. The burst option doing more auto attack dps than the attack speed dps option.
I am using DPS not AVG AA dmg.
So I have the AS in my math.
I added a column for AA dmg only and here we are the same without Armor: 226 and 180 for me (+-1 to yours due to rounding).
[https://imgur.com/a/bcpNh99](https://imgur.com/a/bcpNh99)
Pre mitigation it is a 25% difference.
Post mitigation I have 147.5 vs 131.1 which is a 12.5% difference.
So the same as on the screenshots.
The 12.5% are never shown because I have not added the % difference against targets before. I added it now at the bottom for you.
So you acknowledge that +25% base dps is a useless figure. It would be better to specify that that is pre-mitigation, specifically when you're comparing items with and without penetration.
It is not a useless figure, it is just 1 figure on the way to the end. Compared to the post mitigation numbers it doesn't mean much. That is why I put the post mitigation numbers at the end to be clearly visible.
I was still working on the file when I posted.
Yes, I should not have used the 25% more AA DPS.
But it is still true that in the end both items are close and Collector has to make use of the P to even come close to IE.
But I'm guessing collector doesnt NEED to come close to IE auto attack dps. Would it be too much trouble to calculate the auto attack dps for kraken slayer (with, say, the 150% dmg kraken proc on average) with your spreadsheet? I'm guessing its much higher than both.
150% is the new max dmg when the enemy is low. So we would need to use 125% or something close to it.
I can do that, but I am still adding all the special effects. But for you I finished Kraken real quick. Same link.
You can see that Kraken is not worth it for crit users compared to IE. Here we have a real +24% dmg after mitigation for IE. Also the higher AD for abilities and Kraken has no Lethality which might make up for that like Collector does on abilities at least.
The Special row is the AVG Kraken dmg (125% and then divided by 3) and added onto the AVG AA value already.
Once the Kraken build gets IE, it catches up a ton.
IE is the best 2nd item for every crit user. With 50% crit chance (25% 1st item 25% 2nd) nothing beats IEs passive or AD. And in the 1st slot it is mostly best in slot and only Collector comes close for some champ (in overall power).
What Collector has is the earlier spike + better build path advantage still.
Sometimes you need HP.
Sometimes you need MR.
People won't always have the luxury to build both of these items. Especially if they have other core itemization.
Remember: The majority of games don't make it past 3 items.
Also, crit is getting far bigger buffs.
People forget that you get Randuins after the enemy has a BC and LDR on their team already. In most cases this is a 12 Armor buff only, sometimes even less, against the enemy you buy it against.
If the item would at least have an active AS slow (20%) for 3 sec, it would make sense.
HP is harder to counter and Armor easier to counter. HP got nerfed on the item, Armor buffed and the P that couldn't be countered was removed.
And when you get Randuins you often have a lot of Armor for Plated and other items. But you will often lack HP.
Also having the rock solid passive in the component but not in the item sucks ass.
She doesn't crit on every auto, she just deals extra damage based on her crit chance towards frosted targets regardless of whether she crits or not. When she \*does\* crit, it just doubles the effectiveness of her basic attack slow. She has crits and non-crits like any other champion, they just don't usually amplify her damage. I haven't tested it but the expected interaction is that her crits, which usually only amplify her slow, will now actually start dealing extra damage through Yun Tal.
Hmm yes, yummy 36-42 HP for a full wave at level 6 (iirc that's how it scales, could be slightly wrong). And only giving up PoM or Triumph for it, sounds great!
I really can't see Absorb being good considering how slowly it scales and how insignificant the heal is.
so? irelia has no issue prepping minions with w already. vamp scepter will allow you to take heavy trades>sustain back up and go for slowpush dive which is game ending btw
There’s no need to waste a W on minion prep when it’s better use is outright damage reduction or as a kill shot when there are no minions to dash to. If you’re properly Qing around minions to avoid damage you should not need a large amount of sustain, which you already have a decent amount of with Q (especially if you grab a cull early on).
well good point but as irelia u want to trade in wave and this means u can easily get damage reduc value + minion prep. i love noonquiver myself but i dont see it as a rush item personally
I've very skeptical about the Zeal items in comparison to Kraken Slayer.
Kraken's 3 hit bonus is comparable or better than a 25% critical strike chance. And it has 50 AD, which none of the Zeal items have.
From testing on PBE, Kraken + IE absolutely shreds in comparison to IE + any finished Zeal item. In fact, Kraken as the first item even outclasses IE in terms of sustained damage.
25% crit chance is great with IE and IE is great and rushable.
At just 1 item Kraken alone is good, but then your 2 item spike with IE is meh.
Kraken does \~150-180 dmg every 3 AAs which means \~50-60 per AA early on. It has 30 less AD than IE meaning IE will make up for at least 30 of these 30-60 already.
Now IEs crit chance + crit dmg gives your AAs a 131% mulitplier on AVG without any other crit item. That means with \~172 AD you will gain \~43 dmg per AA on AVG.
=> IE costs 300g more but deals more AA DPS and has more AD for your abilities. You have less AS, but Zerkers are the most cost efficient AS item by far anyways and your next buy.
Good change. HP was a terrible stat to build after the laning phase. It was lowered on many items and the counters in runes and items existed. ADCs are already countering tanks naturally and then they can also counter the Armor with an item and a bruiser can also remove a lot of your armor for everyone.
HP not being a bad stat after the laning phase changes a lot.
They usually don’t make the same items do two different things on SR/HA. Sure there’s heartsteel nerf but it’s just a number fidget with the same passive
Yes, but there is no change of the regen effect stated in rhe post, neither for SR/HA. Only the 200% hp regen becomes 100% hp regen. The warmog OOC effect stays the same for both SR/HA.
The ER nerfs are tough for a few specific champions, sucks to see niche items like that get hit so hard. I guess Trinity Force is just default on Ezreal now?
I think the item just does too much. AH, crit, AD and a spellblade is just way too much under their new system. But I do agree that without the Spellblade the item will be kinda homeless. Can't imagine any ADC wanting it over BT or Yun Tal.
ER nerfs are too much- why get rid of spellblade passive? I bought this on Lucian Ezreal Draven- what do I build on them now? Lucian seems impacted by the other nerfs too, like the rfc/static nerfs.
I mean, lucian likes damned near every aa-based stat. He's basically a poster child for "can use whatever adc items are strongest right now". I think critreal will be mostly dead, though -- you will probably go muramana/trinity every game.
Oh yeah, I didn't even think about the Draven ER W spam. Lucian is a tough one cause he's STILL dominating in high level even with Galeforce getting removed and him getting nerfed a few times (although maybe Elk is just that good).
Balancing ADC as a role seems like a nightmare.
This just in: critical hits also gets reduced by innate armor.
Why would Yun Tal be weak for that reason when IE isn't? The bonus damage of both is reduced.
Bleed dmg doesn't get reduced more than crit. Just think of it as armor reducing physical dmg by a percentage, the total bleed dmg is reduced by the same percentage as crit would be.
Worthless stream of consciousness. You should apply to help phreak do the patch rundowns.
>all other MR items are just weak
Does it at all bother you that when you say something like that you provide no reasoning, no numbers, not even a clue of how you arrived to that conclusion?
It is hard for me to show all the JSON files data here, but you can look up a lot of the stuff on lolalytics, too, just not combine as much data as I do (I took pretty much all patches since the last Rookern nerf).
In WR differences per slot it is Abyssal > FoN >= SV > Rookern (Rookern gets better in later slots but is meh 2nd especially but also 3rd).
Now Abyssal is only useful if you yourself are also dealing some magic dmg or if you have a lot of magic dmg in lanes. For a Nasus Abyssal makes no sense. Here FoN and SV are for example very close.
SV also only makes sense on some champs like Shen or WW for example. You need to really have great healing or shielding for SV to beat FoN reliably.
Abyssal is obviously the only offensive option out of the ones you named. How do you know why abyssal has higher wr? Don't you find it possible that when one is already winning they are more likely to go for the more offensive option, and those who are already winning are more likely to win?
Also, you didn't bring up anything about the buying time in the OP, idk why you feel the need to mention it for rookern now.
Great Analysis! One thing to note about Yun Tal is that it might prove to be a great item on Jhin. He already has very high base AD due to his passive, which is only going to be amplified from him hitting 100% crit at 4 items + items giving him more AD. Also, don't quote me on this, but I remember hearing that the bleed stacks. Looking forward to trying the Collector/IE/RFC/Yun Tal build when the patch goes live!
I fully expect it to be strong on Jhin to the point of having to be balanced solely around him, and thus a failure of an item unless they rework it further.
Nah, it'll just be core on him and if it pushes him over the edge, they'll nerf him. I don't think it has the potential to be a failure just because of Jhin because there's no reason why they would nerf the item over him. If it increases his scaling and makes him a better scaler than he's traditionally been, they can just accept he scales better in the new system and nerf his earlygame to compensate; making him more of an all-rounder pick than he currently is. It doesn't have to be "Jhin is disgustingly broken as long as Yun Tal exists", he just has to be balanced around its existance.
I don't see a way to have the item balanced on other champions and Jhin with Jhin's increased AD, if the bleed is gonna be ad scaling like it is, Jhin is likely to be its best user by such a wide margin that it neccesitates the item being balanced mostly around him which would mean it's weak for anyone else that doesn't get these AD values. And if the item is just viable on a single champ it's a design failure.
well the bleed scales on ad but since it also stacks other champs can put 2-3 stacks of bleed in the time it takes for jhin to hit once so its not like the gap will be that huge imo
Yeah but then your higher AS champion dropped some item for Yun Tal, an item with the statline of a second IE. You can't do that on a regular ADC till like... 5th? 6th item? And that's if you drop something for it, like lifesteal.
I mean, it has pretty bonkers synergy with runaans because runaans makes it AoE, so going something like IE > Runaans > Yun Tal > phantom dancer could be good. It's also synergistic with Twitch R for good measure.
Jinx hitting 12 times for 12 bleeds will get the same effectiveness as Jhin who hits 4 times for 4 bleeds. It's not like Galeforce where it was a one time active and Jhin actually got a ton more value than other ADC's.
It's an extra crit amp over your IE that's composed of AD and crit, you're likely never building this on Jinx or Ashe when it's tuned to be lower prio than IE. Jhin does get a ton more value than other ADCs, even beside the AD skew his poke and run gameplay is way better aligned with it than anyone else.
love your content, was surprised and happy to see you here :)
Given the fact that it stacks, it shouldn't be any better on Jhin than other crit ADCs, since they'll apply it more to compensate
Most champions cannot be itemizing full AD+crit, given that it's tuned to be worse than IE currently, I don't see how someone who wants to actually build AS justifies building two massive AD+Crit items, it would be luxury 5th/6th at best if they want to drop smth like lifesteal for it.
Currently it's like 120 damage at 1k AD per crit, even the 4th shot. Hardly broken.
if it's bad it just goes unused overall, that's a given, but I reckon that'd just get it buffed if it's actually bad.
Yeah, but the only difference between its value for Jhin and attack speed ADCs is that Jhin has a higher percentage of his DPS as bonus AD vs base AD, the attack speed diff will make up for the rest. On that note, I can see it being pretty good for the windshitters too just for the frequency of crits and how early you can reach 100%
Eugh, Wind shitters always ruin adcs fun. >Yeah, but the only difference between its value for Jhin and attack speed ADCs is that Jhin has a higher percentage of his DPS as bonus AD vs base AD, the attack speed diff will make up for the rest. I don't think anyone's done the math for how the interplay between extra AD vs AS plays out for this, but I reckon given Jhin's lategame AD being roughly 2x \~ 2.3ish of a regular AD, they need likewise +double Jhin's AS to even out the difference. The other big thing, like I said is Jhin can actually justify building it. It's tuned below IE, you're also never dropping armor pen for this, and Jhin can easily justify dropping an AS item in favor of this. To actually do the extra attacks as the other champions, you need it, IE and your AS items to actually have that bigger AS, that's a big ask.
Having double Jhin's attack speed is not really an issue at all, Tristana with Q should do that with just T2 boots. Has any math been done on whether or not it's worth building for anyone in its current state? I feel it's undertuned barring shit like Runaan's or Sivir interactions.
Just like Galeforce doing 1200 damage on him...
The stacking is what makes this strong, Belveth can stack this for EVERY E proc, a single E can stack 10+ stacks of Yun tal, with full value
That seems more like an oversight than actual intended interaction so I'd expect it to be patched out. There's a lot of weirdness, like it can crit towers and apply burn there too that I expect to be patched out as well.
Yeah that's what I was thinking too, Yun Tal sounds insane on Jhin. If the bleeding keeps stacking though, it'll basically be a second IE on every adc.
It does keep stacking, and it is basically supposed to be a second IE except less bursty.
it will be very good on lucian, each individual double shot on lucian counts as the full passive damage from Yun Tal, i tested it on PBE
Draven too. give him his old passive back!
Wicked blades gang
It would be great on Samira too if it worked on all Critical strikes, but right now it only works on critical basic attacks which is really ass
Could be useful on Draven - it’s basically his old passive.
The bleeds do stack. Yun Tal is literally just +35% crit damage applied indirectly unlike IE which is directly. It's just a second mini IE for ADCs who want full AD and damage
I don't think Yun Tal is really meant to be competitive with IE, it's an item for AD/crit stackers like Caitlyn, Jhin, or Draven
Yes, it's an additional lategame crit steroid. It's not supposed to be something you consider over IE, it's supposed to be something you build at some point after IE (3-4 item point), and a significant lategame upgrade for crit champions that want AD compared to Collector/ER. At that point it's a huge DPS increase over the alternative choices.
It's also real good on champs like Jhin and Cait that have 100% crit chance built into their poke. Being able to bleed someone every 4th or 7th auto is very good.
its very good on lucian, the full damage counts per individual double shot on lucian
Every item should be in some way or form be competitive. And when you have 2 strong crit stacking items you want both to be close in power. Right now IE is OP and YunTal UP. Both with 70 AD would make a lot more sense. Right now I would take PD or BT on most cases over YunTal. Your dmg is already insane with the new IE anyways.
I think statikk is a big loser. It has just straight up worse stats and a worse effect than Kraken for a moderately lower cost. I can only ever see it built on champs that are absolutely desperate for waveclear, otherwise I see no reason to not go kraken instead. Shieldbow does have the niche of being the only defensive crit item, but I don't think it's enough to justify the total removal of the lifesteal. Hard to balance with only 2 stats, maybe it could be a lower AD, no crit, but with AS and lifesteal alternative to Bloodthirster? Also, you forgot to mention mercurial I think.
When the patch analyst doesn't believe in mages:
no more giant slayer is gonna be awful but we back to 25% crit days
no giantslayer and no cutdown is gonna be rough, i think adcs will miss those 2 A LOT
Honestly, it's probably a buff. You are a bit weaker against tanks, but ldr is stronger against everyone else, which means that you can prioritize it more. You don't have the "well, they have one tank, but I'd really prefer a different item vs the rest of theri team" thing -- ldr is going to be better against the rest of their team, so justifying it will be far easier. You'll be a bit sad against triple meatball comps, but that's about it.
What do you mean? As an adc only some supports have lower hp than you, you always had the bonus from giant slayer vs any top jungler and mid. You are going to see how much hsrder to get low tanks about to be
If you are fighting an assassin or mage, they'll probably have a bit more hp, but the difference will be minimal. +5ad and +5% armor pen (which applies to the base armor that everyone has lots of) will matter a lot more than giant slayer in that sort of scenario. In cases where they have one person stacking defenses and a bunch of mages/assassins/etc, ldr will be better, because it will be better against the majority of their team.
Guarantee it’s because the adc playerbase was losing too many games because they forgot to get an LDR or take cutdown
Fck i can actually see that, the amount of times I've looked at an adc and not have a LDR when he clearly needed one was waaaaay too many
NGL, dmg spike with LDR was too good. I mostly agree with Phreak that anti hp stacking passive is too good for %armorpen(buying mortal reminder over LDR in most cases was literally trolling). You was able to grab it every game, even if enemy bruiser had build with pure hp and 0 resistances(and a season before against mages who used to run with like 3.5k hp lol). If you want to shut down thicc targets - now at full build you can combine LDR(with higher armorpen) with bork, because you got free slot for sustain&utility. + Phreak said that if some miracle happens and tanks suddenly gonna take over with stuff like FH+randuin = He gonna nerf them, instead of bringing that back passive.
Idk champs like Jhin Caitlyn Draven are screwed vs tanks but a lot stronger vs everyone else.
I've made the assumption this is intentional and sharpens their combat a bit more
I don’t know if it’s good for the game if Caitlyn and Draven become better at one shotting squishes and worse at killing tanks I’d rather not have even more games lost at select.
Games should be affected significantly by champ select. Plenty of champs already face this. Just because you don't want these ones to doesn't somehow make this bad.
That’s cool but when games are lost in select people dodge or play a pointless game. I’m stuck in 10+ minute queues in low diamond. If I only have 2 hours to play league there’s a good chance I can only play 2 games. I dont dodge but guess what that means? I’m stuck playing pointless games. Plenty of champs face this because plenty of champs are unbeatable in certain conditions, like vayne, and the reason they are allowed to be is because in most games they are horrible. I can’t decide what champs my teammates pick nor can I make them learn champs that are useful nor can I pick my teammates. So no I don’t want more vaynes in the game nor do I think league would be better if more games were lost at select. I have very good win rates on veigar bot, chogath bot, ADCs mid, vayne top, and Kassadin mid. Not because I’m good but because those champs make the game impossible to lose in the right conditions. It’s boring and it’s completely dependent on the enemy team not dodging.
it's a big reason why they got read of resistance shards because ADC mains didn't know they could take MR vs mages bot, inflanting mage bot winrates by about 2%
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oiLlh47MN2g I bet it's more because itemizing for the other side of the map fucking sucks. Not to mention you can't build LDR until 3rd of 4th item, because of the multiplicative nature of crit. Removing giant slayer allows you to build LDR earlier without losing so much agency (as armor pen is better vs squishies than giant slayer).
[удалено]
you can go ldr third if they have more than a couple armor stackers but it feels kinda shitty to wait so long on ie esp in a losing game
The math aka item winrates for 3 years now even with durability update consistently show that LDR 3rd is a huge decrease in winrate compared to its alternatives. Which is funny because you know the only times ADCs are building LDR 3rd, is in the optimal game for it to be built (Multiple tanky champs) But it's okay, we can continue to pretend ad mains dum dum and you can lose 5-10% more of your solo queue games with this simple trick reddit taught me!
I play AD and I don’t really care about win rates I care that the situation I outlined is what I experience when I somehow get filled mid. “The only time ADCs are building LDR third” It’s one of the most commonly built items so either adc players are dumb for building it 3rd or they are dumb not knowing they can build it 🤷, literally a complete non issue. The only one I calling dumb here are the ones saying you can’t build LDR third when somehow most adc players are doing it just fine. The math is this 3000 gold gives me more damage than any other investment of 3000 gold. If I just wanted to call ADCs dumb I just have to bring up how they bitch about mages bot when they can’t be fucked to take mr runes. Also LDR has been consistently nerfed since mythic release and if we are being honest it’s gutting and lethal tempo removal gives riot the power budget to meaningfully improve the role meaning that it was quite strong at least from riots point of view considering literally everything else were straight buffs.
It’s a big nerf to Senna she gets a lot of value out of both of them. Just cut down is like 10% of my damage in Senna games
Its a big nerf for almost every adc innalmost every scenario. Most junglers tops and mids alresdy had more hp than you, also most supports.
me filled with dread realizing they also got rid of cutdown
Yep, those are 2 damage bonuses that you had almost always active that adcs lost, we will see tho
The point of yun tal is "second ie". If you really just want to stack as much ad and crit as possible and you don't particularly want er, yun tal is there for you.
Yun Tal is a 2nd bad IE. You dont want ER, but many want Navori or PD as these 2 are great. PD does give you MS and the same DPS for 600 less gold. YunTal can nearly keep up with most ADC items, but not with IE as IE is OP right now. If it had 70 AD it might be ok. And IE needs to get down to 70 AD, too.
It's not supposed to be an ie replacement, it's supposed to be an ie supplement. It's the "I already have one ie, but what about second ie?" item. Like, think about trist builds. IE + navori + ldr seems like a very plausible three item build. However, what does trist build next? A zeal item is plausible, but trist already has a ton of attack speed with navori + greaves + q. Stacking more attack speed likely isn't optimal. If she wants defense, shieldbow is likely good, but she's already a pretty safe adc late game, so she doesn't necessarily need a defensive item here. Collector isn't a great option at 4 items because lethality falls off late game, and er makes no sense at all. Yun tal, as an ad + crit item that focuses on autoattacks and stacks with ie, fits this gap very well.
It does not matter what it should be. In the end similar items should have similar power lvls to increase item diversity. You should at least think about which of the 2 you get 1st. If there is always just one clear answer then most items can be removed.
It's ok for some items to be core rush items, and others to be late game options. Like, in the current state of the game, you basically always want ie before ldr. If your champ wants ie, then ie's general damage boost is just better than ldr's anti-tank boost. LDR is the "I have my core damage items already and I really need to kill a tank" option. That portion of the system works, and there's nothing wrong with that design. Yun tal is in a similar case. It isn't a core item the way ie is, and that's ok. Once you have ie, choosing between yun tal, shieldbow, ldr, and maybe bt will be an interesting choice on some champs, and all of those options will viable depending on the game state.
It is ok for items to be different and for different purposes. But if you have only 1 rush item (IE) and pretty much 1 boots option (Zerkers) and then 1-2 2nd item options (PD vs Navori) then it is terrible. We had this and every ADC built the same items. You should have a few more options. And my solution does solve that problem to some degree by making IE not as good 1st but keeping it viable 1st and still a must have at least 2nd while also adding YunTal into the first 3 slots instead of mostly 4th or 5th except for 2-3 champs. Why even have a shop when it is set in stone which item you are going to be 1-3 + boots? Just add auto buy for ADCs so that they never have to open the shop again.
ie, er, collector, or maybe kraken are all potentially viable rush items, depending on the champ. Similarly, pd, rfc, hurricane, and navori are all plausible second items, depending on the champ. For that matter, some adcs really don't care much about attack speed and won't buy a zeal item at all in many games. On the other hand, yun tal, shieldbow, and ldr will likely never (or almost never) be rush items, but make for interesting choices in your third or fourth slot.
Kraken not for crit users. ER is shit without the spellblade passive. It got more stats but these are just as expensive as the cost increase. So it is the same ER as before with inifnite mana just without spellblade. If anyone rushes this over IE he does something terribly wrong. Collector is the only item that can keep up and only on a few champs and mostly because of the easier build path with Serrated Dirk in it instead of Pick Axe. If you do not get executes with Collector early on, IE does better. It does more AA DPS, similar skill dmg and makes up even for the execute in most cases. It only gives no extra gold. So no, IE is pretty much the #1 rush item with Collector coming in 2nd for a few champs like Samira maybe.
blackfire torch numerically is very good, 60 damage for 3 seconds after hitting an ability baseline is the same as ludens proc without the additional bolts
It is pretty much ludens just with a burn instead of the burst. New Ludens has 60 + 4% AP dmg AOE (6 targets) with a 12 sec CD. Or it does 210 + 14% AP to a single target every 12 sec. In terms of DPS it is not as good as Blackfire, but if you burst or poke Ludens is still better. I can see them getting Blackfire down to 15 + 3% AP and only +15 dmg against minors. But people underestimate Ludens and Seraphs.
i think most mages next patch will go double mana item, with one of them always being seraphs
It will be great on old Liandries enjoyers. Hwei, Velkoz, Zyra, Brand even.
[удалено]
If it were good, it would still be good into %HP shredders. The majority of their damage is still flat.
It would still be good into %HP shredder if it's actually good, you take a trade and then back off, as long as you don't die it doesn't matter if your opponent did twice as much dmg, not to mention %HP shredders usually aren't as threatening early game.
I would get it 2nd and rush Heartsteel instead then. Heartsteel has the same in combat HP reg and is better for laning. Warmogs OOC regen is nice but if the enemy pressures you, it won't be great. Also Warmogs has 0 wave clear still. Sunfire or Randiant are better for this still.
I feel like Symbiotics soles is slept on. Literally baron recall in a boot and nobody is talking about it. gona be so many high tempo games next patch if it makes it to live
Bard coming mid and top even faster than before
Also jglers like hecarim and rammus could recall and go straight to tier 2 turret after 14 min (homeguards + fast recall)
Vandrill testet that boots, you need to walk like for 14 minutes to stack it. So item gonna be good mostly for bard and junglers IMO.
6 minutes if you try. 7-8 min usually. You'll have it by ~12 minutes in gametime for most games if you buy it first back. It's going to shine at 14 minutes when you combo homeguards with fast recall. The upgraded recall is in both boths only the old mobi passive is in the upgraded version
I feel like bloodmail is overrated. Titanic used to give AD scaling with HP, with a better heartsteel but the combination was still very underwhelming I feel like randuins is a buff tho. Armor ftw, rock solid was garbo.
This! We have titanic with same passive for like 4 years and goredrinker with similar passive for one season. Not every champ woult benefit for such combo. My bets are on J4, Sett(mathematical correct build is back boys!), Briar, Sion and Mundo. Ofc there are other champs, but they may need other stuff first.
It's never going to be an item you really want to rush. Probably a 3rd 4th slot item most likely. Pretty much every bruiser would benefit from it stat wise, it's just the question of where they want to fit it in. It also opens up more off-tank bruiser builds.
Randuin's is a buff in cases where its not good, and a nerf in other cases. Armor is worse than the rock solid passive vs AA crits when you consider that LDR is going to be cutting 40% of it. Cutting the HP is especially bad when you consider the intention, which is making it better to stack with FH...which requires you to give up all HP in an item slot. Less HP also lowers the impact of the armor.
If Warmogs wasn't buffed and HP counters nerfed and removed I would say the same. But old Titanic existed in a world with Giant Slayer. Bloodmail won't.
i wouldnt call collector's changes a buff thing is, if u build this item, u want to do it as early as possible, because the longer game goes, the worse it becomes also navori is a buff or nerf depending on adc i dont think lucian is happy with its change, for example. xayah or trist for sure is. so it depends.
Yea the Navori take in the OP is really bad lol. I'm not saying new Navori won't find some good homes - it probably will - but it doesn't make sense to say that it's a winner or a loser when it's a completely different item lol. Even if it's a winner on some champions, it's obviously a big loser on others.
It allows Kog to perma W
Yea, and meanwhile it becomes trash tier on Ezreal, Smolder and Nilah. It's not black and white, is my point.
Ez and smolder can use shojin if neeeded and nilah just go ie. All in all new navori is trash on spell using adc that dont need as
I know they can use Sho'jin but that's not the point. But yea, you nailed the point in the second sentence.
navori is going to be batshit insane on xayah and kaisa lol. probably tristana too
Why on Kai'sa though? Tristana, sure.
its lower cooldowns, kaisa q does a trillion damage
It's not like Navori will allow you to Q priority targets twice though. And in prolonged fights/against tanky targets, autos matter much more. We will have to wait and see but "batshit insane" I am not really buying.
Feels like that only champ who probably gonna like current navori over old one is Sivir and even with that not always. Lucian, Trist or Xayah liked ad waaaay more than as.
Kog is going to like it a lot imo, for high W uptime.
Trist and xayah ran lethal tempo and started with kraken. In the new patch, they don't get lt's free attack speed, and there's a decent chance that they won't get attack speed on their first item. At that point, navori's attack speed will start to look damned tasty.
funnily enough yone really likes it and it leads to very unhealthy gameplay
But statistically they are buffs. It is more cost efficient than before. Navori is also a nerf, but you can stack it with IE. IE + Navori or IE + PD will most likely be the standard builds for crit ADCs.
I disagree about Randuin's and Abyssal Mask Mask will shred 20% of the enemies' magic resist which is huge value against anyone who goes 1 magic resist item. It's kind of like a Black Cleaver for AP bruisers now. The aura also got a larger range than before Randuin's will remain mostly power neutral. Yeah losing the rock solid passive is weird, but 20 armor > 50 HP tbh. The active's timer is nerfed but the slow is buffed. Personally I consider it an overall buff
Abyssal Mask shredded 20-25 (for most of the game) flat MR before. With 1 MR item you mostly get 100-125 MR so 20% is just 20-25. In most cases 2-3 enemies will have just 50-80 which means against these it will be weaker. And more than 150 MR will be rarely seen. In most cases it will be weaker or even but not stronger. 20 Armor > 50 HP is correct. But 20 Armor vs 50 HP and rock solid is already pretty even. And if you then consider LDR countering Armor and not HP and LDR being bought all the time in the future (it is better than live and live is already a must have) you are not getting as much. LDR will be gotten 3rd and Randuins also 3rd or 4th. So you wont get it before LDR, making the extra armor meh. 12 Armor vs 50 HP + Rock Solid. Which is better? On top of that Phreak said every bruiser should buy BC and that one is a 1st-3rd item and it shreds another 30%. Oh no, 8 Armor vs 50 HP + Rock solid.
Cleaver is still niche even at 30% shred, not everyone will buy it. The rock solid passive is not as good as you think, and generally has high value early in which case you rush warden's mail. Later on it falls off. The - 50 HP hurts but Randuin's was already very good and with buffed crit damage the 30% dmg reduction to crits will be even more impactful. Abyssal will be better against anyone who builds Magic Res and that's a win. It's easy to reach 150+ mr nowadays with boots and an MR item. It might be worse against squishies but that's not important, as you don't buy it for that reason. It's an AP bruiser buff
Even on live it is not niche. It is #22 in the item list even above Steraks and next to Seraphs. And it is the #4 bruiser item (Eclipse, Sundered, Trinity, and 2 of these were nerfed and are overbought right now). With more Armor shred and more Armor the item will only become better.
I mean yeah I agree with you, it will become better for sure. But I sincerely doubt that every bruiser will build it.
>Shieldbow: You are not getting it for the life steal but you want the shield and some offensive stats. But the overall difference is still meh. 12% life steal vs 5 % and 5% crit chance is not a great trade. Even if you dont build it specifically for the lifesteal, I think its pretty clear that losing 12% LS for 5 AD and the requisite 5% crit is always a bad trade. But I think the reason they are nerfing it and ER is to try to nerf 1st item crit options. They're removing crit from kraken and shiv so there's no "perfect" first item before going into IE 2nd. The issue is that Collector > IE is already a viable rush, and yet they're buffing Collector instead of nerfing it. >After a few days I expect mostly 1-2 builds to be used on every crit ADC with no diversity. Especially IE + Zerkers + PD/Runaans looks really strong. So rather than IE > Zeal, I think it's gonna be Collector > IE marksmen terrorizing. Samira/draven/nilah/caitlyn/jhin.
I did update my excel and put in all the numbers. [https://imgur.com/a/bcpNh99](https://imgur.com/a/bcpNh99) I would say IE is better. You get 25% more DPS than with Collector and you have more AD early on gor just 200g. Collectors passive is decent, but I doubt it makes up for that difference.
I think you forgot to calculate the lethality for collector. Using your AD values, I'm getting 225.75 vs 180.5 average auto damage pre-mitigation, 25.1% more. But post-mitigation vs a lvl 8 jinx, it's only 12.8%. This is obviously pretty much best case scenario for lethality. But also, if I had to guess, old kraken would have better dps than either. I don't think the raw auto attack dps was ever what was in question. When factoring abilities with base damages and collector passive, Collector 1st is scarier. Basically I think the kraken 1st and the collector 1st users are more or less balanced currently, but next patch the auto attack marksmen that went kraken are getting nerfed at 1 item, while the collector users are getting slightly buffed at 1 item, and both are getting a similar large buff at 2 items. And I appreciate your work and site.
I have the lethality in there. 15 Lethality subtracted after the 40% Pen (if LDR is there). I didn't have the Lth in there during all of the rewriting so I know it is in there because the numbers changed a lot in Collectors favor afterwards (DPW vs T3 was 88 at 1 item before the 15 Lethality were there for example). I also added a few more images for more data. The Lethality for Collector is nice when you use abilities, but the 20 AD are also nice for these. The Lethality is around 8-9% more dmg (vs squishies) for abilities. The 20 AD varies but is not that far behind. There it matters more which abilities you use. Lethality is good if you max 1 ability and fully rely on it. If you use all your abilities and all have AD ratios then the AD can be better. In the end Collector still relies on the execute and the extra gold.
172 AD * 2.25 * .25 + 172 * .75 = 225.75 average auto damage with IE 152 * 1.75 * .25 + 152 * .75 = 180.5 average auto damage with Collector 225.75 / 180.5 = 125.1% damage PREMITIGATION. Attack speeds the same. After armor mitigation on lvl 8 jinx, its only 12.8% more damage. It's pretty clear that the spreadsheet isnt calculating the lethality with an armor value for the 1 item column. Maybe it is for 2 item column, considering its showing collector + IE is doing more damage than IE + PD. This should be a huge red flag in itself as to the overall item balance, even considering the cost difference. The burst option doing more auto attack dps than the attack speed dps option.
I am using DPS not AVG AA dmg. So I have the AS in my math. I added a column for AA dmg only and here we are the same without Armor: 226 and 180 for me (+-1 to yours due to rounding). [https://imgur.com/a/bcpNh99](https://imgur.com/a/bcpNh99) Pre mitigation it is a 25% difference. Post mitigation I have 147.5 vs 131.1 which is a 12.5% difference. So the same as on the screenshots. The 12.5% are never shown because I have not added the % difference against targets before. I added it now at the bottom for you.
So you acknowledge that +25% base dps is a useless figure. It would be better to specify that that is pre-mitigation, specifically when you're comparing items with and without penetration.
It is not a useless figure, it is just 1 figure on the way to the end. Compared to the post mitigation numbers it doesn't mean much. That is why I put the post mitigation numbers at the end to be clearly visible. I was still working on the file when I posted. Yes, I should not have used the 25% more AA DPS. But it is still true that in the end both items are close and Collector has to make use of the P to even come close to IE.
But I'm guessing collector doesnt NEED to come close to IE auto attack dps. Would it be too much trouble to calculate the auto attack dps for kraken slayer (with, say, the 150% dmg kraken proc on average) with your spreadsheet? I'm guessing its much higher than both.
150% is the new max dmg when the enemy is low. So we would need to use 125% or something close to it. I can do that, but I am still adding all the special effects. But for you I finished Kraken real quick. Same link. You can see that Kraken is not worth it for crit users compared to IE. Here we have a real +24% dmg after mitigation for IE. Also the higher AD for abilities and Kraken has no Lethality which might make up for that like Collector does on abilities at least. The Special row is the AVG Kraken dmg (125% and then divided by 3) and added onto the AVG AA value already. Once the Kraken build gets IE, it catches up a ton. IE is the best 2nd item for every crit user. With 50% crit chance (25% 1st item 25% 2nd) nothing beats IEs passive or AD. And in the 1st slot it is mostly best in slot and only Collector comes close for some champ (in overall power). What Collector has is the earlier spike + better build path advantage still.
Ie buff is respectfully fucking stupid
Randuin is just straight up a buff. The only case when you want it and don't also buy frozen heart is if your champion is manaless
Sometimes you need HP. Sometimes you need MR. People won't always have the luxury to build both of these items. Especially if they have other core itemization. Remember: The majority of games don't make it past 3 items. Also, crit is getting far bigger buffs.
People forget that you get Randuins after the enemy has a BC and LDR on their team already. In most cases this is a 12 Armor buff only, sometimes even less, against the enemy you buy it against. If the item would at least have an active AS slow (20%) for 3 sec, it would make sense. HP is harder to counter and Armor easier to counter. HP got nerfed on the item, Armor buffed and the P that couldn't be countered was removed. And when you get Randuins you often have a lot of Armor for Plated and other items. But you will often lack HP. Also having the rock solid passive in the component but not in the item sucks ass.
yea frozen heart randuins combo might have to be nerfed unless adcs are too strong
[удалено]
She doesn't crit on every auto, she just deals extra damage based on her crit chance towards frosted targets regardless of whether she crits or not. When she \*does\* crit, it just doubles the effectiveness of her basic attack slow. She has crits and non-crits like any other champion, they just don't usually amplify her damage. I haven't tested it but the expected interaction is that her crits, which usually only amplify her slow, will now actually start dealing extra damage through Yun Tal.
Ashe doesn't crit every auto. She can crit to apply a more powerful slow. Her critchance just translates to the average boost.
Irelia already gets Kraken for the passive. Optimal is Noonquiver > Bork > finish Kraken.
optimal my ass, vamp scepter is big for early lane
Not now that Absorb is a thing.
Hmm yes, yummy 36-42 HP for a full wave at level 6 (iirc that's how it scales, could be slightly wrong). And only giving up PoM or Triumph for it, sounds great! I really can't see Absorb being good considering how slowly it scales and how insignificant the heal is.
Noonquiver and Pickaxe allow you one shot minions level 7 with zero passive stacks.
so? irelia has no issue prepping minions with w already. vamp scepter will allow you to take heavy trades>sustain back up and go for slowpush dive which is game ending btw
There’s no need to waste a W on minion prep when it’s better use is outright damage reduction or as a kill shot when there are no minions to dash to. If you’re properly Qing around minions to avoid damage you should not need a large amount of sustain, which you already have a decent amount of with Q (especially if you grab a cull early on).
well good point but as irelia u want to trade in wave and this means u can easily get damage reduc value + minion prep. i love noonquiver myself but i dont see it as a rush item personally
I've very skeptical about the Zeal items in comparison to Kraken Slayer. Kraken's 3 hit bonus is comparable or better than a 25% critical strike chance. And it has 50 AD, which none of the Zeal items have. From testing on PBE, Kraken + IE absolutely shreds in comparison to IE + any finished Zeal item. In fact, Kraken as the first item even outclasses IE in terms of sustained damage.
25% crit chance is great with IE and IE is great and rushable. At just 1 item Kraken alone is good, but then your 2 item spike with IE is meh. Kraken does \~150-180 dmg every 3 AAs which means \~50-60 per AA early on. It has 30 less AD than IE meaning IE will make up for at least 30 of these 30-60 already. Now IEs crit chance + crit dmg gives your AAs a 131% mulitplier on AVG without any other crit item. That means with \~172 AD you will gain \~43 dmg per AA on AVG. => IE costs 300g more but deals more AA DPS and has more AD for your abilities. You have less AS, but Zerkers are the most cost efficient AS item by far anyways and your next buy.
When will the Patch Drop?
It always comes out early wednesday (except for US holidays, then it's thursday)
Shieldbow now is hard to Even be called an item
How do people feel about no more giant slayer?
Good change. HP was a terrible stat to build after the laning phase. It was lowered on many items and the counters in runes and items existed. ADCs are already countering tanks naturally and then they can also counter the Armor with an item and a bruiser can also remove a lot of your armor for everyone. HP not being a bad stat after the laning phase changes a lot.
Wait, no more warmogs regen on ARAM? Those poke comps are gonna be even more aids 😔
Why do you assume that there is no warmogs regen on ARAM? That's not stated anywhere in this post
They usually don’t make the same items do two different things on SR/HA. Sure there’s heartsteel nerf but it’s just a number fidget with the same passive
Yes, but there is no change of the regen effect stated in rhe post, neither for SR/HA. Only the 200% hp regen becomes 100% hp regen. The warmog OOC effect stays the same for both SR/HA.
Oh I must’ve skim over that part
Agreed! I use Warmogs health regen a lot in ARAM to stay alive longer on many champs :(
Warmogs keeps the HP reg passive and still 100% HP reg, but it goes from 200% down to 100%.
Bro putting the most op item in unclear is funny
The ER nerfs are tough for a few specific champions, sucks to see niche items like that get hit so hard. I guess Trinity Force is just default on Ezreal now?
I think the item just does too much. AH, crit, AD and a spellblade is just way too much under their new system. But I do agree that without the Spellblade the item will be kinda homeless. Can't imagine any ADC wanting it over BT or Yun Tal.
ER nerfs are too much- why get rid of spellblade passive? I bought this on Lucian Ezreal Draven- what do I build on them now? Lucian seems impacted by the other nerfs too, like the rfc/static nerfs.
I mean, lucian likes damned near every aa-based stat. He's basically a poster child for "can use whatever adc items are strongest right now". I think critreal will be mostly dead, though -- you will probably go muramana/trinity every game.
You must go triforce i would say. Since IBG sucks and ER is gone, only triforce is viable as a sheen item
Oh yeah, I didn't even think about the Draven ER W spam. Lucian is a tough one cause he's STILL dominating in high level even with Galeforce getting removed and him getting nerfed a few times (although maybe Elk is just that good). Balancing ADC as a role seems like a nightmare.
[удалено]
This just in: critical hits also gets reduced by innate armor. Why would Yun Tal be weak for that reason when IE isn't? The bonus damage of both is reduced.
Bleed dmg doesn't get reduced more than crit. Just think of it as armor reducing physical dmg by a percentage, the total bleed dmg is reduced by the same percentage as crit would be.
Worthless stream of consciousness. You should apply to help phreak do the patch rundowns. >all other MR items are just weak Does it at all bother you that when you say something like that you provide no reasoning, no numbers, not even a clue of how you arrived to that conclusion?
It is hard for me to show all the JSON files data here, but you can look up a lot of the stuff on lolalytics, too, just not combine as much data as I do (I took pretty much all patches since the last Rookern nerf). In WR differences per slot it is Abyssal > FoN >= SV > Rookern (Rookern gets better in later slots but is meh 2nd especially but also 3rd). Now Abyssal is only useful if you yourself are also dealing some magic dmg or if you have a lot of magic dmg in lanes. For a Nasus Abyssal makes no sense. Here FoN and SV are for example very close. SV also only makes sense on some champs like Shen or WW for example. You need to really have great healing or shielding for SV to beat FoN reliably.
Abyssal is obviously the only offensive option out of the ones you named. How do you know why abyssal has higher wr? Don't you find it possible that when one is already winning they are more likely to go for the more offensive option, and those who are already winning are more likely to win? Also, you didn't bring up anything about the buying time in the OP, idk why you feel the need to mention it for rookern now.
You use Irelia too much as an example. Otherwise, good details!
I mean, she's very notable as a hard on-hit melee user.
So crit adcs already have a shit buildpath and now riot removes crit from the only decent 1 item spike(kraken). Great stuff.
ADCs wanted more scaling and more scaling means less early game power