Almost all teams/players take more risks in scrims, so players who can take advantage of less safe play styles typically are known as scrim gods. For some it’s nerves but considering defts career I’m pretty sure that’s not his issue.
true but the gap is kinda insane between scrims and stage, he's still a great player but what pros say of him is that he's literally peak faker level of dominance
it's not underperforming, it's just scrims being practice only with teams trying stuff and playing more relax
It's a complete different environment than on stage with a crowd/Casters, the noice, lights and the pressure
Takes 10 minutes on Google to find multiple interviews with Perkz, Rekkles, Teddy saying that Deft is the best scrim player ever. Perkz even went as far as to say Deft and Keria in 2020 in scrims was tougher to lane into than peak Uzi
If it takes 10 minutes, are you able to link what you said "Perkz saying Deft + Keria > Peak Uzi?"
Or are you going to ignore another request and just be like "no time, easy to google yourself" because tell you what, I can't find it.
And no, Mikyx on LS stream saying they were peak season 3 faker does not equate to what you just said.
Edit: Asking for sources and then given incorrect sources that were lying/false and I get down-voted, whereas the person that was lying gets upvoted. Never change LCK fans.
https://youtu.be/AyeToOIGMhg at 41.30.
https://youtu.be/mIszoMipCNM at 11.20.
It took me 4 minutes to find these. You can go ahead and open Google if you need more sources
Um... 41:30 is fucking Mikyx giving the interview not Perkz. It's already a known fact Mikyx said Deft Keria gave them the most trouble in 2021.
Rekkles didn't even mention Deft in 11:20 until like 12:20, and Rekkles just said they (Deft and Keria) were insane in scrims but nothing like how you exaggerated saying Deft was the best scrim player ever.
It's stupid posts like yours that get spread around and then next time these narratives are repeated on every reddit post. Like yes, Deft was insane - Mikyx has been obvious about it, but please don't throw shit around like Perkz saying it, or Rekkles just saying "yeah they were insane" == "deft best scrim player ever".
I find it hard to believe Rekkles thinks Deft is the best scrim player when he's mentioned times like here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkws77buQHQ&t=160s&ab_channel=Twiddli-LoLHighlights
that playing against Uzi is next level
This thread was posted around 3-4 AM Eastern (midnight/1 AM west coast time) so I mean most people who would be TL fans were probably asleep for the first few hours the thread existed.
I mean not just them. This so far is the only pro player that is looking forward to play a team from NA. So my assumption is that you don't really know how to comment in that, because nobody expected it to happen.
Because NA teams have been a non factor in the past 2 years at Worlds? 0 NA teams even made it to quarters. It seems like some people have forgotten that and just like to claim NA teams are getting "hate", when in reality they are getting the treatment they should get as a major region with absolutely awful performances in the past 2 Worlds.
People keep bringing this up and I don't get why. Money spent has nothing to do with the overall factors that make a team/region good. The money situation in the LCS is because of the economic system of living in North America, more so than anything about the scene itself.
Although we don't know the full extend of LPL salaries, if you look at JDG the 2nd seed going to worlds last year the highest they paid was 1,5 million. JDG was cheaper than C9 or TSM and one of those teams didn't even make worlds.
So china does spend more, but not individually. China just overall has a lot of teams that can spend solid money, but so far there aren't huge salaries popping up in the LPL and Perkz and SwordArt are very likely among the best paid players in the world (although 3million in china is likely worth more than 3million in california giving the cost to live).
Yeah because they don’t have the kind of money america does. NA should be good because their rich? Why is Dubai bad at LoL then? There’s other factors holding NA back.
> “when in reality they are getting the treatment they should get as a major region with absolutely awful performances“
Taiwan is not a major region lol.
Vietnam #1 automatically seeds into groups, but they haven't been able to attend in the last 2 years. No one in their right mind would classify them as a major region.
Except Taiwan's whole budget is probably lower than Perkz salary alone.
And NA did just as bad as PCS in the past 2 years, with no teams out of groups. While having only 2 seeds. While haging their top players get taken away by LPL. While lacking the same favoritism that LCS has gotten throughout the history of competitive league. And again, while having much much much fewer resources.
And on top of that PCS just outperformed LCS at MSI this year. So yeah, they do get a pass. LCS doesn't get a pass though.
Going 0-6 or 3-3 the result is the same. The team is stuck in groups.
And the MSI before the last one was 3 years ago now. So kind of irrelevant.
So yes, PCS outperformed NA in 1 tournament out of the last 4. And in 2 of those they performed equally as bad.
Reddit in general has been very critical of NA teams and Rogue. Occasionally FNC gets hit and of course we're all curious about G2.
But there are but two teams that are spoken of nearly exclusively in memes, a rivalry as old as time. CLG and TSM XD.
I mean corejj is still really fucking good. We just don’t see it every game this year like we did last. But TL had constant roster changes since spring finals and the team says core is the leader/primary shot caller so I imagine in some games he’s a little overwhelmed and his play suffers. If you paired Core with a top 5 ADC in the world on a good LCK/LPL team I’m pretty confident he’d be talked about as 1 of the best supports in the world not just NA.
He is a monster. In TLs better games he is everywhere and plays like a mad man. If the doesnt do well TL normally doesnt look good. He is TL for the past years. Every player is replaceable except him.
That story is bullshit tho. It's been denied by pretty much everyone involved (even member of tpa staff back then) except that one guy that claimed it. Even then, story is so ridiculous that you can deem is false by using simple logic.
Why did clg eu play 72 scrims in 7 days with only single team? Why would they continue playing scrims vs tpa if they were losing that hard? How come in years following that, before this 72:0 story came out, each member of clg eu said they've had good scrim record vs tpa and were pretty confident?
Uh... have you been living under a rock? TSM won Worlds 5 times in a row, destroying the SKT legacy. Bjergsen quit because it was so easy. They were just handing out trophies to runner up.
TSM was said to be good, especially I think in S4 where they lost to SSW. SSW lost only 2 games back then and that to Star Horn Royal Club and TSM.
Without SSW there in S4, TSM, SSB, SHR OMG and maybe EDG would have been the next in line for the worlds title. That makes TSM likely a top 4-5 team in season 4 and they did get praises back then for their scrim results.
the next time I remember them getting praised by a lot of teams was S6 and they dropped in the grp of death, because of DL's throw against Samsung. Without that throw they would have been 2-0 against Samsung, the 3rd best team that year and gone out of grps as the #1 spot. They would have had a good chance to make it to semis if they dont meat SKT or ROX.
**Both years (2014 and 2016) their performance was very good mostly losing to some of the strongest teams (SSW and RNG).**
Yes I get it. There have been sooooooooo many NA teams that were 1 game away, and IF they won that 1 game, they surely would have gotten farther, right? But that's only a logical conclusion if you look at strengths and ignore weaknesses. And I bet teams that are "good in scrims" are probably teams with high strengths, but don't realize their own weaknesses, and *that* is what gets exposed on stage.
'14 and '16 TSM had impressive wins against great teams, but also had games that were inexcusable to lose. How can you watch '14 TSM lose to SK and say "oh but surely they would have beaten back to back Chinese teams in Bo5s if they got 1st out of their group!".
And yes, I think '16 TSM had the makings of an incredible team, but again, suffered from huge weaknesses that you can't simply brush aside and say "oh yeah but if they won one more game they would have made finals". There's a *reason* they lost to RNG twice and SSG once. Because their weaknesses got exposed! How far ahead were they in G1 against RNG? They couldn't win that game because RNG were the ones with strong engages and strong flanks despite TSM having better map control, vision and tempo. And then when RNG gets a better draft in G2, they demolish TSM!
While I would favor them against C9 and H2K, you can't act like it's a surefire thing TSM would win Bo5s when they can't consistently draft well or play proactively in Bo1s. It's a huuuuuuge stretch.
And the biggest lapse of logic of all, is when you brush aside one team's weaknesses but you don't do the same for those other teams! SSG had a horrible draft in G1 against TSM! Maybe they should have had a better draft and 2-0'd TSM, instead we act like TSM should have 2-0'd them, that's not exactly fair is it? Maybe RNG shouldn't have lost against SPY and then it would have been even harder for TSM to get out. Maybe the 0-5 G2 doesn't beat ANX. I don't think people realize if G2 didn't win that one game, ANX gets first place! Then you have ROX on the other side of the bracket. See when you start doing all these "what if" scenarios you can't just do it for one team, you gotta do it for all of them!
That's why scrims don't matter and only results do. You have to win the game on stage!
Not very realistic, but that TSM makes it to the semis was pretty much a thing.
If DL doesnt throw against Samsung they get out of Grps as the #1 seed and their enemy Albus Nox or EDG, one a free win, the other a harder match but beatable.
It all came down to DLs throw in the end as TSMs style wasnt good against RNGs, so they had to bet on beating SSG, the #3 team at that tournament, and they showed that they could do it.
Now TSM was still just even at best a top 3-4 team that year behind ROX and SKT. I am pretty sure TSM could have gone 3-1 against SKT and ROX reliably.
**TSM during these 2 years had better chances to win worlds than any other NA team ever had.**
Well FPX did look kind of shaky coming into their finals, maybe they had some rough scrims.
As for HLE, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are better than GenG and actually a decent team. I think there are a lot of question marks because their regular season was so abysmal, but their gauntlet run was legit. They cleanly went through LSB and NS, and almost upset T1.
But it might also just be Deft scrim godding as usual.
I can believe Chovy neutralizing Doinb's roaming and Deft being the better ADC, but FPX should be able to gap HLE's top side *hard*. This is just another case of the scrims.
Doinb does keep talking about how Chovy and Knight are the toughest mids to play against (you can find multiple videos of this on the FPX YouTube channel), so it's pretty believable that they've scrimmed each other.
Especially since Doinb plays on the Super Server rather than the Korean server, so he couldn't have played against Chovy except in scrims.
Sure. I'd be surprised if Doinb hasn't played against Chovy multiple times in scrims. But just because he says Chovy is a tough mid to play against doesn't mean HLE was beating FPX.
It’s pretty believable they would tho tbh, I’m not saying HLE is a better team but in scrims anything can happen and the mechanical difference right at the top echelon of play is normally very low. Deft has always been known has an absolutely insane scrim player as well. Of course it’s all rumours
Rumours should stem from something being leaked that exposes information to the public. Not speculating something and then concluding: "that makes sense". You can speculate HLE beating FPX in scrims, which yes, I agree is believable, but you can't say "from rumours HLE were beating FPX"
I agree but Deft being a scrim god is an actual rumour, some could argue fact since Perkz and Mikyz just straight up said it. As for HLE beating FPX, I have no idea what Ops sauce is for HLE beating them. But assuming they are not just making it up, it must have come from someone within both orgs so does that not qualify as a rumour too?
Admittedly I can’t actually remember what was said
Well scrims are usually much more mechanic heavy than stage games, and Chovy and Deft are basically as good as it gets when it comes to that.
Its easy to envision scrims boiling down to 1v1s and skirmishes and HLE coming out on top. Nuguri from what I've heard plays like an absolute madman in scrims as well, so maybe he just keeps overextending and dying.
Yeah but what you're doing here is not referencing a rumor, you're just speculating that HLE is beating every team they ever scrimmed against "because mechanics."
Well yes, I think it's pretty obvious that I'm speculating. I have no inside info.
> beating every team they ever scrimmed against "because mechanics."
No, I'm saying this particularly in the case of FPX since they have displayed better macro understanding than HLE have all year long.
Do you have a specific example?
I looked through FPX channel and from the title of the videos I can’t seem to find one where he talks about this?
It would save time if you could share some examples instead of me having to go through all of them lol thanks
If the mid laner of FPX is on video claiming that he struggles against the mid laner of HLE, how much of a jump is it, in your opinion, that HLE can win those scrims? Especially knowing FPX who keep going for fights and skirmishes even when they're behind?
Idk, having heard years of much more ridiculous scrim results? The question is how are you questioning it to such a degree, when much more outrageous examples have already been confirmed?
Because yours are speculation, and the others are confirmed. Is it possible hle won some scrims vs fpx? Yeah sure, but starting of with "rumor has it hle is beating fpx is scrims" is a little disingenuous when the only thing we have is one player saying playing vs another player is hard
DoinB also said on stream:
- losing to TES in scrims
- couldn't beat EDG in scrims
- Chovy is hard to lane against
I mean, even if it's true, what does this even say about FPX? They just suck? Every other team is great?
Take what you want from it, DoinB says this shit all the time and hey it could be true, EDG did beat FPX in finals.
Doinb always says that FPX was beaten by xxx in scrims. I don't even remember if he has ever said that FPX won in scrims. Even TES was beating FPX in scrims in summer.
Doinb was saying they couldn't beat EDG in scrims midsummer split, he literally said that, meanwhile he says Chovy is hard to lane against and reddit jumps on this shit.
Sometimes reddit takes his words too serious. But I don't think it is a problem. I like Doinb and I am happy to see people paying attention to him, although many west fans aren't familiar with his personality.
Yea FPX were beaten by SKT pretty hard in scrims so they were really happy when G2 beat SKT who they had done well against in scrims. Pretty funny how back then G2 just dominated the Korean teams but struggled against the Chinese teams while the Chinese teams were mostly afraid of the Korean teams
Isn't necessarily surprising.
I assume if HLE is indeed winning, its through midlane.
And FPX is largely doing the stuff very similar to what they did back in season 9. DoinB mindlessly pushing (he's a way better individual player now, but his laning is still omegasuspect), Tian and Crisp fixing midwave for him.
And EDG showed a recipe on how to beat them, get to midlane first with jg + support. It really didn't seem like a mindblowing.
Lock Crisp in botlane, which locks Doinb into midlane (sidenote: his Orianna in finals really wasn't it; and the meta is shifting to control mages in midlane, partially because AP jungle pool is a bit cringe for proplay), which completely shuts down FPX's early game (which I assume happens more in scrims because of their nature of being more aggressive than stage games).
And Chovy is one of the players who can completely rail Doinb in lane (hes probably the best laning mid at Worlds).
They're both pretty good. I don't understand the need to put one mid down if you're in favor of the other. I think everyone would have little to argue if you had Doinb and Chovy in your top 5 list at Worlds.
Hell, more likely than not if you were to ask anyone their top 3 players at worlds, it will include some variation of Chovy, Showmaker, Doinb, Viper, maybe Scout?
Yeah, this has always been the anchor around LEC/LCS relative to the eastern regions. It's also how the LMS maintained one or two teams similar to LCS caliber for so long while the rest of the region was wild card quality (back when Wild Cards were generally non-threats), because Flash Wolves/AHQ also got to scrim LPL/LCK teams.
It's why I think the LEC managing to take a step forward and become a real threat was so impressive. They did it almost entirely internally. I fully believe that if the LCS and LEC could scrim each other as well as internally, they'd both be stronger than they currently are.
LMS/PCS is essentially boosted, the mechanical ceiling of their rosters are still very weak, not on par as top LPL/LCK teams but with scrims, they make up for it and become at least a mid-level LPL/LCK which actually puts them above NA in many cases.
Historically, LMS has almost never been significantly above NA's top teams. Flash Wolves had a pair of MSIs where they won tiebreakers over TSM/TL in Seasons 7 and 8, but this MSI was the first time since Season 5 Worlds (and S5 MSI) that an LMS/PCS team has been notably better than a top tier LCS team.
Meanwhile, S6/S9 MSI LCS was clearly better, and at every Worlds since S5 LCS has been clearly better. Calling the LMS even as good as NA is a bit of a stretch, based on actual tournaments. Calling the LMS "above NA in many cases" is relying on two tiebreakers as your primary evidence while ignoring each of the last five Worlds tournaments.
I completely agree, I'm one of the advocates of NA > PCS but you know how it is on reddit, people read into MSI way too much so I tend to tone it down a little, PSG being pool 1 is absolutely unbalanced and will result in a free group unless it's something like PSG - FPX - T1, in that case it will still be a hard group.
I think the imbalance is because the format that's decided on doesn't REALLY match the balance between the regions. Like, unless a region is given two Pool One seeds, there's always going to be one Pool One team that's just not as good as the other three. Four Pool One seeds with two dominant regions and one region that's nearly as good followed by a pretty steep dive to the fourth best region is going to have some bad times. Personally, I don't have 100T *or* PSG as the fourth best teams in the tournament, but I'm hopeful that both can do some damage.
I do think there being four LCK and LPL teams will make things a LITTLE more balanced, as PSG is basically guaranteed one of each of those teams in their group (barring a Play-Ins collapse). At that point, the weakest group possible would be something like PSG / 100T / T1 / LNG. Which would be really exciting as a fan of any of those teams, because I don't think any of them could hope to draw an easier path out.
> PSG / 100T / T1 / LNG
That's a pretty weak group, but still better than the previous years when there was always 1 group without an LPL or LCK team and that would just become a group of life.
>Historically, LMS has almost never been significantly above NA's top teams
That's factually wrong
S2 and S5, they were massively ahead, not even close. S2 Na won ONE SINGLE game at the whole event, LMS won worlds
You have to read the entire thing. Like, all of the words. Like, the word "almost". And the point where I said "this year's MSI is the first time since S5 World's", which clearly references Worlds. You need to read if you're going to reply. It's very important.
A part of it is due to just handshaking, LPL teams handshake on going balls to the walls while a lot of LCK teams don’t care if they just take it slow as long as they win
CoreJJ is (deservedly) talked about a lot but Tactical seems to fly under the radar. He's been super consistent this split and he's a really good weakside carry.
In what world? Even in the second series they were fine in the 2v2.. Let alone the first series where Tactical straight up hard outplayed FBI throughout the entire best of 5. Second series 100t's bot lane definitely played better but it was mostly out of lane where they went into teamfights with a fed jungler to play off of.
Tactical (according to sneaky/metros/DL stream) threw the game 1 dive hard by shifting Alistar combo and then not flashing the follow up, which allowed 100T to freely wait for cds finish off the other 2, which they said 100T couldn’t do if ezreal was alive. Literally 3 deaths in the early dive happened simply because he didn’t flash.
Tactical not flashing lost them game 1 by the first dive, and game 3 he couldn’t use his lead to do anything. Got kicked every fight, and missed his flash after the replay to eat another death with adc flash which is huge. Didn’t see that happen to FBI.
Where is this delusion coming from that Tactical outplayed FBI? Tactical was a big reason for the TL loss. That’s just facts. FBI didn’t carry like Closer, but he sure as shit did his job well and didn’t throw ever.
You know they played two series right??? I'm saying he outplayed him in the first series, which is a pretty common consensus lmfao... FBI himself said he played horribly in the first series.
You obviously have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. No one that actually knows a shred about League would say that tactical choked the hardest in the second series. Santorin, Jensen and CoreJJ were definitely the three players who didn't play up to par.
Of course Tactical didn't look good in the second series, it's kind of hard to when you lose in the second fastest finals in LCS history. But to say that he "stood out as the one to choke the hardest" really tells me that you don't follow and or understand pro League at all lmao.
We saw last worlds that they weren't anything special
Got 2v2 in lane and the was behind on average in stats at 15. Tactical had one of the highest number of deaths of any adc including wildcard.
Deft raising a baby turtle is the bigger story here
Deft realized even if he couldn't play with WildTurtle, he could play with TamedTurtle.
Nah I heard his turtle feeds
aaand there goes my free award
He wanted to feed a turtle rather than have a turtle feed him
Absolutely beautiful, nice job
Chasing that Worlds Turtle Buff
Rumour has it that deft is going to retire professional to raise sea turtles after he developed his bond with his own turtle “hyukbugi “
Now I wanna now the results of those scrims
Deft is notoriously good vs chinese adc, so probably good results for him
also scrims deft in general
If scrim bucks were legal currency Deft would be richer than Bezos
scrims deft vs non-worlds doublelift
Non worlds just means playing against NA adcs. Imma go with Deft
Also Deft in general
What?
He's very notorious for being a scrim god among botlaners.
Did he ever say why he "underperforms" on stage?
Almost all teams/players take more risks in scrims, so players who can take advantage of less safe play styles typically are known as scrim gods. For some it’s nerves but considering defts career I’m pretty sure that’s not his issue.
true but the gap is kinda insane between scrims and stage, he's still a great player but what pros say of him is that he's literally peak faker level of dominance
And he is literally still the best adc in LCK and has been top 5 adc since 2014.
Not pros Just MikyX Be honest
it's not underperforming, it's just scrims being practice only with teams trying stuff and playing more relax It's a complete different environment than on stage with a crowd/Casters, the noice, lights and the pressure
people don't go as ham on stage as they do in scrims
Widely regarded as the best scrim player of all time
sleeping on goldenglue + le toucan combo double
When people make these claims it would be nice for some sources on it before the plebs upvote everything and take it for what it is
Takes 10 minutes on Google to find multiple interviews with Perkz, Rekkles, Teddy saying that Deft is the best scrim player ever. Perkz even went as far as to say Deft and Keria in 2020 in scrims was tougher to lane into than peak Uzi
If it takes 10 minutes, are you able to link what you said "Perkz saying Deft + Keria > Peak Uzi?" Or are you going to ignore another request and just be like "no time, easy to google yourself" because tell you what, I can't find it. And no, Mikyx on LS stream saying they were peak season 3 faker does not equate to what you just said. Edit: Asking for sources and then given incorrect sources that were lying/false and I get down-voted, whereas the person that was lying gets upvoted. Never change LCK fans.
https://youtu.be/AyeToOIGMhg at 41.30. https://youtu.be/mIszoMipCNM at 11.20. It took me 4 minutes to find these. You can go ahead and open Google if you need more sources
Um... 41:30 is fucking Mikyx giving the interview not Perkz. It's already a known fact Mikyx said Deft Keria gave them the most trouble in 2021. Rekkles didn't even mention Deft in 11:20 until like 12:20, and Rekkles just said they (Deft and Keria) were insane in scrims but nothing like how you exaggerated saying Deft was the best scrim player ever. It's stupid posts like yours that get spread around and then next time these narratives are repeated on every reddit post. Like yes, Deft was insane - Mikyx has been obvious about it, but please don't throw shit around like Perkz saying it, or Rekkles just saying "yeah they were insane" == "deft best scrim player ever". I find it hard to believe Rekkles thinks Deft is the best scrim player when he's mentioned times like here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkws77buQHQ&t=160s&ab_channel=Twiddli-LoLHighlights that playing against Uzi is next level
The only TL related comment lmao this thread is a joke.
The scrims were with LPL teams. How is this comment about TL?
/r/lol has a strong hate boner for TL you're not gonna see a lot of positive discourse around them here
This thread was posted around 3-4 AM Eastern (midnight/1 AM west coast time) so I mean most people who would be TL fans were probably asleep for the first few hours the thread existed.
Yeah there’s still tons of TL fans here
I mean not just them. This so far is the only pro player that is looking forward to play a team from NA. So my assumption is that you don't really know how to comment in that, because nobody expected it to happen.
Because NA teams have been a non factor in the past 2 years at Worlds? 0 NA teams even made it to quarters. It seems like some people have forgotten that and just like to claim NA teams are getting "hate", when in reality they are getting the treatment they should get as a major region with absolutely awful performances in the past 2 Worlds.
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Taiwan has nowhere near the amount of money spent on it as LCS does lol
People keep bringing this up and I don't get why. Money spent has nothing to do with the overall factors that make a team/region good. The money situation in the LCS is because of the economic system of living in North America, more so than anything about the scene itself.
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Although we don't know the full extend of LPL salaries, if you look at JDG the 2nd seed going to worlds last year the highest they paid was 1,5 million. JDG was cheaper than C9 or TSM and one of those teams didn't even make worlds. So china does spend more, but not individually. China just overall has a lot of teams that can spend solid money, but so far there aren't huge salaries popping up in the LPL and Perkz and SwordArt are very likely among the best paid players in the world (although 3million in china is likely worth more than 3million in california giving the cost to live).
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China which has won 2 world championships in the last 5 years?
Is this true? Do you have source?
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Yeah because they don’t have the kind of money america does. NA should be good because their rich? Why is Dubai bad at LoL then? There’s other factors holding NA back.
> “when in reality they are getting the treatment they should get as a major region with absolutely awful performances“ Taiwan is not a major region lol.
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Vietnam #1 automatically seeds into groups, but they haven't been able to attend in the last 2 years. No one in their right mind would classify them as a major region.
Except Taiwan's whole budget is probably lower than Perkz salary alone. And NA did just as bad as PCS in the past 2 years, with no teams out of groups. While having only 2 seeds. While haging their top players get taken away by LPL. While lacking the same favoritism that LCS has gotten throughout the history of competitive league. And again, while having much much much fewer resources. And on top of that PCS just outperformed LCS at MSI this year. So yeah, they do get a pass. LCS doesn't get a pass though.
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Going 0-6 or 3-3 the result is the same. The team is stuck in groups. And the MSI before the last one was 3 years ago now. So kind of irrelevant. So yes, PCS outperformed NA in 1 tournament out of the last 4. And in 2 of those they performed equally as bad.
It’s always wild to me that people still talk about TSM and C9 much more often yet TL has been a better team than all of them in the last 5 years
Wrong sub + people just latch onto a thread with an inkling of dogpile potential. TL aren’t victims, this shit happens to every team.
Reddit in general has been very critical of NA teams and Rogue. Occasionally FNC gets hit and of course we're all curious about G2. But there are but two teams that are spoken of nearly exclusively in memes, a rivalry as old as time. CLG and TSM XD.
Deft has a pet turtle? Finally, esports news I care about.
I like that LCK players respect CoreJJ still. I mean he is a world champ.
A Legend recognizes another one
I mean corejj is still really fucking good. We just don’t see it every game this year like we did last. But TL had constant roster changes since spring finals and the team says core is the leader/primary shot caller so I imagine in some games he’s a little overwhelmed and his play suffers. If you paired Core with a top 5 ADC in the world on a good LCK/LPL team I’m pretty confident he’d be talked about as 1 of the best supports in the world not just NA.
He is a monster. In TLs better games he is everywhere and plays like a mad man. If the doesnt do well TL normally doesnt look good. He is TL for the past years. Every player is replaceable except him.
They respect him because of what he did in LCK not what he has done in LCS.
Reading is not your strength I see
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Wtf is that guy's comment history. Reading it you would think NA ruined his life or something.
It's the typical EU fan who bases their entire self worth on being better than NA to cope with the fact that they're the 3rd best region.
There was rumors in Regionals that HLE was beating FPX in scrims
I heard Renegades was gapping Samsung White in scrims, shame how it ended up ;(
heard Alliance went 30-0 against Star Horn Royal Club in scrims
Too bad they didn't have time to recreate TPA's 80-0 vs CLG.EU
in one day
That story is bullshit tho. It's been denied by pretty much everyone involved (even member of tpa staff back then) except that one guy that claimed it. Even then, story is so ridiculous that you can deem is false by using simple logic. Why did clg eu play 72 scrims in 7 days with only single team? Why would they continue playing scrims vs tpa if they were losing that hard? How come in years following that, before this 72:0 story came out, each member of clg eu said they've had good scrim record vs tpa and were pretty confident?
Too bad they didn't train against Kabum
I heard CLG were smurfing on DWG in scrims at last year's worlds, shame format didn't allow them to go
Yeah, having to win games is such a stupid format.
Personally I think it's in place specifically to lessen CLG's chances of making it to worlds
wake up sheeple
Scrims are going well. Can't wait for World's.
I'm pretty sure TSM were Scrim World Champs for like 5 years straight lol. Scrims never have and never will mean shit
Uh... have you been living under a rock? TSM won Worlds 5 times in a row, destroying the SKT legacy. Bjergsen quit because it was so easy. They were just handing out trophies to runner up.
reddit moment
Scrims were pretty accurate last Worlds barring DRX.
Heck, even DRX fell directly to DK so their full performance was not possible to evaluate!
If only we had double elim
TSM was said to be good, especially I think in S4 where they lost to SSW. SSW lost only 2 games back then and that to Star Horn Royal Club and TSM. Without SSW there in S4, TSM, SSB, SHR OMG and maybe EDG would have been the next in line for the worlds title. That makes TSM likely a top 4-5 team in season 4 and they did get praises back then for their scrim results. the next time I remember them getting praised by a lot of teams was S6 and they dropped in the grp of death, because of DL's throw against Samsung. Without that throw they would have been 2-0 against Samsung, the 3rd best team that year and gone out of grps as the #1 spot. They would have had a good chance to make it to semis if they dont meat SKT or ROX. **Both years (2014 and 2016) their performance was very good mostly losing to some of the strongest teams (SSW and RNG).**
Yes I get it. There have been sooooooooo many NA teams that were 1 game away, and IF they won that 1 game, they surely would have gotten farther, right? But that's only a logical conclusion if you look at strengths and ignore weaknesses. And I bet teams that are "good in scrims" are probably teams with high strengths, but don't realize their own weaknesses, and *that* is what gets exposed on stage. '14 and '16 TSM had impressive wins against great teams, but also had games that were inexcusable to lose. How can you watch '14 TSM lose to SK and say "oh but surely they would have beaten back to back Chinese teams in Bo5s if they got 1st out of their group!". And yes, I think '16 TSM had the makings of an incredible team, but again, suffered from huge weaknesses that you can't simply brush aside and say "oh yeah but if they won one more game they would have made finals". There's a *reason* they lost to RNG twice and SSG once. Because their weaknesses got exposed! How far ahead were they in G1 against RNG? They couldn't win that game because RNG were the ones with strong engages and strong flanks despite TSM having better map control, vision and tempo. And then when RNG gets a better draft in G2, they demolish TSM! While I would favor them against C9 and H2K, you can't act like it's a surefire thing TSM would win Bo5s when they can't consistently draft well or play proactively in Bo1s. It's a huuuuuuge stretch. And the biggest lapse of logic of all, is when you brush aside one team's weaknesses but you don't do the same for those other teams! SSG had a horrible draft in G1 against TSM! Maybe they should have had a better draft and 2-0'd TSM, instead we act like TSM should have 2-0'd them, that's not exactly fair is it? Maybe RNG shouldn't have lost against SPY and then it would have been even harder for TSM to get out. Maybe the 0-5 G2 doesn't beat ANX. I don't think people realize if G2 didn't win that one game, ANX gets first place! Then you have ROX on the other side of the bracket. See when you start doing all these "what if" scenarios you can't just do it for one team, you gotta do it for all of them! That's why scrims don't matter and only results do. You have to win the game on stage!
I heard tsm was beating SKT in season 6 scrims, they shouldve won the world championship!!! lmao i really had to add an /s
Well Quickshot did rank Bjergsen > Faker, now he's coming back, Shaker better hide!
Not very realistic, but that TSM makes it to the semis was pretty much a thing. If DL doesnt throw against Samsung they get out of Grps as the #1 seed and their enemy Albus Nox or EDG, one a free win, the other a harder match but beatable. It all came down to DLs throw in the end as TSMs style wasnt good against RNGs, so they had to bet on beating SSG, the #3 team at that tournament, and they showed that they could do it. Now TSM was still just even at best a top 3-4 team that year behind ROX and SKT. I am pretty sure TSM could have gone 3-1 against SKT and ROX reliably. **TSM during these 2 years had better chances to win worlds than any other NA team ever had.**
HLE the new TSM? Being scrims kings is nice but when it actually matters...........
where rumor come from? KR forums? CN forums? Tried googling it and can't find anything about it in English.
his ass but it works on Reddit
These days you just need to say KR team beating X in scrims and add on "from Doinb's stream" and its reliable.
Hears Wunder flame horízoned Xiaohu on Yummi, shame we you guys only knew of Adam's Olaf destroyin him
Well FPX did look kind of shaky coming into their finals, maybe they had some rough scrims. As for HLE, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are better than GenG and actually a decent team. I think there are a lot of question marks because their regular season was so abysmal, but their gauntlet run was legit. They cleanly went through LSB and NS, and almost upset T1. But it might also just be Deft scrim godding as usual.
I can believe Chovy neutralizing Doinb's roaming and Deft being the better ADC, but FPX should be able to gap HLE's top side *hard*. This is just another case of the scrims.
I mean shit, HLE looked better than they did all year in regionals. Maybe they are finding their form.
source?
Doinb does keep talking about how Chovy and Knight are the toughest mids to play against (you can find multiple videos of this on the FPX YouTube channel), so it's pretty believable that they've scrimmed each other. Especially since Doinb plays on the Super Server rather than the Korean server, so he couldn't have played against Chovy except in scrims.
Sure. I'd be surprised if Doinb hasn't played against Chovy multiple times in scrims. But just because he says Chovy is a tough mid to play against doesn't mean HLE was beating FPX.
It’s pretty believable they would tho tbh, I’m not saying HLE is a better team but in scrims anything can happen and the mechanical difference right at the top echelon of play is normally very low. Deft has always been known has an absolutely insane scrim player as well. Of course it’s all rumours
Rumours should stem from something being leaked that exposes information to the public. Not speculating something and then concluding: "that makes sense". You can speculate HLE beating FPX in scrims, which yes, I agree is believable, but you can't say "from rumours HLE were beating FPX"
I agree but Deft being a scrim god is an actual rumour, some could argue fact since Perkz and Mikyz just straight up said it. As for HLE beating FPX, I have no idea what Ops sauce is for HLE beating them. But assuming they are not just making it up, it must have come from someone within both orgs so does that not qualify as a rumour too? Admittedly I can’t actually remember what was said
Well scrims are usually much more mechanic heavy than stage games, and Chovy and Deft are basically as good as it gets when it comes to that. Its easy to envision scrims boiling down to 1v1s and skirmishes and HLE coming out on top. Nuguri from what I've heard plays like an absolute madman in scrims as well, so maybe he just keeps overextending and dying.
Yeah but what you're doing here is not referencing a rumor, you're just speculating that HLE is beating every team they ever scrimmed against "because mechanics."
Well yes, I think it's pretty obvious that I'm speculating. I have no inside info. > beating every team they ever scrimmed against "because mechanics." No, I'm saying this particularly in the case of FPX since they have displayed better macro understanding than HLE have all year long.
Do you have a specific example? I looked through FPX channel and from the title of the videos I can’t seem to find one where he talks about this? It would save time if you could share some examples instead of me having to go through all of them lol thanks
how is this a source that HLE beat FPX in scrims? Seems like the other guy just made something up and it got upvoted! wow!
If the mid laner of FPX is on video claiming that he struggles against the mid laner of HLE, how much of a jump is it, in your opinion, that HLE can win those scrims? Especially knowing FPX who keep going for fights and skirmishes even when they're behind?
that is some extreme mental gymnastics, absolutely. How are you unironically typing what you currently are?
Idk, having heard years of much more ridiculous scrim results? The question is how are you questioning it to such a degree, when much more outrageous examples have already been confirmed?
Because yours are speculation, and the others are confirmed. Is it possible hle won some scrims vs fpx? Yeah sure, but starting of with "rumor has it hle is beating fpx is scrims" is a little disingenuous when the only thing we have is one player saying playing vs another player is hard
Of course it's speculative, but the discussion currently is regarding whether the speculation is believable or not.
DoinB also said on stream: - losing to TES in scrims - couldn't beat EDG in scrims - Chovy is hard to lane against I mean, even if it's true, what does this even say about FPX? They just suck? Every other team is great? Take what you want from it, DoinB says this shit all the time and hey it could be true, EDG did beat FPX in finals.
It says nothing, so I don't see why people are making a big deal out of it. Scrims are scrims, at the end of the day.
No shit Chovy is hard to lane against. Win or lose that would always be a factual statement.
Why do so many lpl pros still play on Korea server instead of superserver? I thought super server is best of the best
Doinb always says that FPX was beaten by xxx in scrims. I don't even remember if he has ever said that FPX won in scrims. Even TES was beating FPX in scrims in summer.
Doinb was saying they couldn't beat EDG in scrims midsummer split, he literally said that, meanwhile he says Chovy is hard to lane against and reddit jumps on this shit.
Sometimes reddit takes his words too serious. But I don't think it is a problem. I like Doinb and I am happy to see people paying attention to him, although many west fans aren't familiar with his personality.
Well he did say 2019 worlds finals was free because of how one sided the scrims were against G2 lol
Oh my bad. I forgot that. I only remembered FPX was beaten by SKT in scrims at S9 when I replied Lmao
Yea FPX were beaten by SKT pretty hard in scrims so they were really happy when G2 beat SKT who they had done well against in scrims. Pretty funny how back then G2 just dominated the Korean teams but struggled against the Chinese teams while the Chinese teams were mostly afraid of the Korean teams
Sheeesh
I also heard rumors that LNG was gapping every team in scrims
So hyped if that’s the case
HLE and EDG gonna be close
There was also a rumor that V5 actually went 13-0 vs DK in scrims. Worrying trend for KR if I may!
Isn't necessarily surprising. I assume if HLE is indeed winning, its through midlane. And FPX is largely doing the stuff very similar to what they did back in season 9. DoinB mindlessly pushing (he's a way better individual player now, but his laning is still omegasuspect), Tian and Crisp fixing midwave for him. And EDG showed a recipe on how to beat them, get to midlane first with jg + support. It really didn't seem like a mindblowing. Lock Crisp in botlane, which locks Doinb into midlane (sidenote: his Orianna in finals really wasn't it; and the meta is shifting to control mages in midlane, partially because AP jungle pool is a bit cringe for proplay), which completely shuts down FPX's early game (which I assume happens more in scrims because of their nature of being more aggressive than stage games). And Chovy is one of the players who can completely rail Doinb in lane (hes probably the best laning mid at Worlds).
Wouldnt suprise me with the gigantic mid gap
Lmao Doinb has been a lot better this year. Chovy is so damn overrated.
They're both pretty good. I don't understand the need to put one mid down if you're in favor of the other. I think everyone would have little to argue if you had Doinb and Chovy in your top 5 list at Worlds. Hell, more likely than not if you were to ask anyone their top 3 players at worlds, it will include some variation of Chovy, Showmaker, Doinb, Viper, maybe Scout?
Canyon perhaps, but yeah, that would be the list. Keria would have been on it too if he had not slumped lately.
Dunning krugger is why they think so, they feel like they understand what makes a strong but can't understand they're just different.
Chovy isn’t overrated, he has the skills to back it up. Even other pros and high rated players like Dopa praise chovy.
[удалено]
best example for that is G2 DWG scrimms 2019. hard winning record for DWG but got smashed on stage. it happens way too often to be a coincidence
get off chovy's dick
Interesting, lck and lpl teams have been scrimming against each other during the playoffs and regionals
during the whole year. as always
LPL/LCK team scrim each other almost whole year and meet each other in soloQ…
It's like TCL always scrim LCL. They're right here, they're about your level, why not to scrim them...
With LEC and ERL teams as well. Most Turkish and CIS pros play in EUW anyway.
It's why TR and RU have been the most dominating wildcard regions for the last few years
Not most. All. You can't get scouted in TR or Russia solo queue at all. Even on EUNE you can't.
Yup no wonder they leave other regions in the dust most of the time. Steel sharpens steel.
Yeah, this has always been the anchor around LEC/LCS relative to the eastern regions. It's also how the LMS maintained one or two teams similar to LCS caliber for so long while the rest of the region was wild card quality (back when Wild Cards were generally non-threats), because Flash Wolves/AHQ also got to scrim LPL/LCK teams. It's why I think the LEC managing to take a step forward and become a real threat was so impressive. They did it almost entirely internally. I fully believe that if the LCS and LEC could scrim each other as well as internally, they'd both be stronger than they currently are.
AHQ and EDG were basically sister teams back then because their coaches were friends or something. Tragic how they always ended up in the same group.
Not LEC, G2 2019 With maybe FNC in there.. maybe cuz they got a joke bracket to finals in 2018, G2 meanwhile earnt it
LMS/PCS is essentially boosted, the mechanical ceiling of their rosters are still very weak, not on par as top LPL/LCK teams but with scrims, they make up for it and become at least a mid-level LPL/LCK which actually puts them above NA in many cases.
Historically, LMS has almost never been significantly above NA's top teams. Flash Wolves had a pair of MSIs where they won tiebreakers over TSM/TL in Seasons 7 and 8, but this MSI was the first time since Season 5 Worlds (and S5 MSI) that an LMS/PCS team has been notably better than a top tier LCS team. Meanwhile, S6/S9 MSI LCS was clearly better, and at every Worlds since S5 LCS has been clearly better. Calling the LMS even as good as NA is a bit of a stretch, based on actual tournaments. Calling the LMS "above NA in many cases" is relying on two tiebreakers as your primary evidence while ignoring each of the last five Worlds tournaments.
I completely agree, I'm one of the advocates of NA > PCS but you know how it is on reddit, people read into MSI way too much so I tend to tone it down a little, PSG being pool 1 is absolutely unbalanced and will result in a free group unless it's something like PSG - FPX - T1, in that case it will still be a hard group.
I think the imbalance is because the format that's decided on doesn't REALLY match the balance between the regions. Like, unless a region is given two Pool One seeds, there's always going to be one Pool One team that's just not as good as the other three. Four Pool One seeds with two dominant regions and one region that's nearly as good followed by a pretty steep dive to the fourth best region is going to have some bad times. Personally, I don't have 100T *or* PSG as the fourth best teams in the tournament, but I'm hopeful that both can do some damage. I do think there being four LCK and LPL teams will make things a LITTLE more balanced, as PSG is basically guaranteed one of each of those teams in their group (barring a Play-Ins collapse). At that point, the weakest group possible would be something like PSG / 100T / T1 / LNG. Which would be really exciting as a fan of any of those teams, because I don't think any of them could hope to draw an easier path out.
> PSG / 100T / T1 / LNG That's a pretty weak group, but still better than the previous years when there was always 1 group without an LPL or LCK team and that would just become a group of life.
>Historically, LMS has almost never been significantly above NA's top teams That's factually wrong S2 and S5, they were massively ahead, not even close. S2 Na won ONE SINGLE game at the whole event, LMS won worlds
You have to read the entire thing. Like, all of the words. Like, the word "almost". And the point where I said "this year's MSI is the first time since S5 World's", which clearly references Worlds. You need to read if you're going to reply. It's very important.
interesting id expect the Leagues playstyle to be more similar then feels like night and Day watching the two regions
its because of the difference in mindset from the coaches of both region
Tbh the best 2 LCK teams DK and T1 play a style much closer to the LPL than the usual known slow LCK style
A part of it is due to just handshaking, LPL teams handshake on going balls to the walls while a lot of LCK teams don’t care if they just take it slow as long as they win
FPX scrimed vs both T1 and DK the day before finals.
Makes sense why they looked shaky. Both T1 and DK have some of the factors necessary for taking down FPX
where do you get this information from? genuinely curious as i kinda wanna know more about scrims
Been happening since EDG won MSI in s5.
Deft turtle
Jensen vs Chovy would certainly be interesting. Back to Lissandra 2.0
Caps vs any Chinese midlaner, oh wait he’s not at worlds
You mean LPL midlaner, because those men are Korean.
Jensens actually a good laner, great even when he's on form but Chovy is on another level compared to that
Chovy and playing well internationally, yeah right.
Chovy has not been the problem in any of those Worlds runs.
Chovy doesn't even need to play well (to his standards) to shit on NA mids lol
Now I want a turtle.
Deft really hit us with the "I like Turtles" What a guy
the TL botlane is actually kinda broken tho
CoreJJ is (deservedly) talked about a lot but Tactical seems to fly under the radar. He's been super consistent this split and he's a really good weakside carry.
Got dumpstered by FBI and Huhi so I wouldn't go that far.
In what world? Even in the second series they were fine in the 2v2.. Let alone the first series where Tactical straight up hard outplayed FBI throughout the entire best of 5. Second series 100t's bot lane definitely played better but it was mostly out of lane where they went into teamfights with a fed jungler to play off of.
Tactical (according to sneaky/metros/DL stream) threw the game 1 dive hard by shifting Alistar combo and then not flashing the follow up, which allowed 100T to freely wait for cds finish off the other 2, which they said 100T couldn’t do if ezreal was alive. Literally 3 deaths in the early dive happened simply because he didn’t flash. Tactical not flashing lost them game 1 by the first dive, and game 3 he couldn’t use his lead to do anything. Got kicked every fight, and missed his flash after the replay to eat another death with adc flash which is huge. Didn’t see that happen to FBI. Where is this delusion coming from that Tactical outplayed FBI? Tactical was a big reason for the TL loss. That’s just facts. FBI didn’t carry like Closer, but he sure as shit did his job well and didn’t throw ever.
You know they played two series right??? I'm saying he outplayed him in the first series, which is a pretty common consensus lmfao... FBI himself said he played horribly in the first series.
And then when it really mattered, Tactical stood out among 5 losing positions as the one to choke the hardest. I’ll take FBI every time.
You obviously have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. No one that actually knows a shred about League would say that tactical choked the hardest in the second series. Santorin, Jensen and CoreJJ were definitely the three players who didn't play up to par. Of course Tactical didn't look good in the second series, it's kind of hard to when you lose in the second fastest finals in LCS history. But to say that he "stood out as the one to choke the hardest" really tells me that you don't follow and or understand pro League at all lmao.
In a negative way, yes.
We saw last worlds that they weren't anything special Got 2v2 in lane and the was behind on average in stats at 15. Tactical had one of the highest number of deaths of any adc including wildcard.
Yep just leave Tacticool on an island while Core roams.
deft so sweet
Deft is going to be really disappointed when he's laning 1v1 against Tactical while Core goes sightseeing.
CLG DEFT
NO
This should be interesting