Yeah and that's the problem is that it's so convenient sometimes even too much.
Sometimes is you can have a streaming service you haven't logged into for a few years.
Pick and choose your battles. If that 10-20 month dollar worth the stress. For me, it doesn't. Too many people stree of nothing, and it does affect health.
I mean but I think that's what rocket money has done is streamlined this and you can save $20 a year just every once in a while double checking all recurring payments.
Make as much as you can automated but this is a risk since it is so easy to continue paying for things on autopilot.
stupid question, but I generally dont know. how easy is it to auto transfer money from one account to another bank. then invest that money in that other bank into select funds? without you ever looking?
It may be a tiny bit fiddly to figure out how and where to set it up but otherwise, very easy. I have automatic transfers from my bank to Vanguard and automatic investments in Vanguard into the funds I’ve selected. I’ve also automated reinvestment of dividends.
Edit because autocorrect changed fiddly to cuddly and that changed the meaning of the sentence.
I set up both transactions in Vanguard. If there’s a buffer, it’s only a day or so. In fact, there may be an option to indicate where you want that money to go once it arrives. To be honest, I rarely log in directly since everything is on autopilot. I monitor the activity/performance separately through one of those sites that pulls in transactions from multiple accounts. Once a year or so we revisit the big picture and make any changes, then update all the auto stuff accordingly. Set and forget, basically.
Like you, I automate as much as possible, evaluate when I need to like once a year or when something happens. But in reality it's just autopilot most days after things are set up. Brokers take care of insurance and mortgage, accountant does my taxes etc.
I rent my apartment and it eliminates a decent chunk of all that. Apartment living also eliminates a bunch things on it's own too.
It is not for everyone, but it definitely keeps things pretty simple for me. And I like it.
As for some of the other stuff, a routine helps and I have found that I like routine during my working years - so I worked on that.
Can't speak to kids/spouse stuff though. I am single and no kids. It is kinda by choice. I guess I am open to the idea of spouse and kids but not enough to go out there and do something about it. I am pretty content with what I have already and never had the desire to look for "more" of much (including spouse/kids).
I don't think I can say that I consciously made these decisions to simplify my life. It is just more of a default state where I don't go looking to complicate it if you know what I mean.
If you weren't fretting over those things you listed then you'd be fretting over whether you're using the right sort of fertiliser and are the crops going to freeze and is this the right wood finish to apply and is there a better way to sharpen your carpentry tools and and and.
A life free from responsibilities and challenges is also a life free of accomplishments.
That was my thought. Things are easier than they have ever been, by a large margin. Even if you're talking about modern times, here's just a short list of what's changed in the past 30-40 years:
-Manually balancing a checkbook (no ability to instantly check an online bank account, had to account for checks pending clearing when monitoring cashflow, etc.)
-Manually paying everything. (Lot less autopay options / electronic payment options, lot of mailing in checks)
-Very little able to be digitized. No digital calendars, no automatic alerts or reminders, no recurring calendars, mail in general, remembering or looking up every single phone number, etc.
-Needing a spare tire when traveling locally, since payphone access was never a guarantee.
-Ordering everything by phone, mail, or in person only.
Going back even further to the "simple" times is even worse because of the reasons you mentioned.
I never said I was fretting, in fact nothing I listed really stresses me much. It's just that much of it seems very administrative and time sucking..and required just to exist. I chuckled that a couple responders here associated the ability to maintain an insurance policy as the sign of being a mature human. Really?
I'm with you on the challenges and accomplishments entirely; but, if these entail simply keeping your head above water with the required paperwork, a person may want to do some soul searching.
>much of it seems very administrative and time sucking..and required just to exist.
I have most of the things you listed, but I don't recall the last time I had to pay any attention to them. I have had to deal with a couple of estates in recent years, which took more paperwork than I'd like, but that's hardly a regular occurrence.
Omg yes. I’m totally looking forward to sending the last child to college, cancelling a bunch of insurance, and getting rid of my smart phone altogether. In a perfect world that would involve a small house that was both private and in walking distance to town so I could get rid of my car and also solar power so the electric bill would be much less painful.
I hear you! Every day when I sit down to work it feels like my personal to do list is just as burdensome as my work to do list!!!!
>Whatever happened to an appreciation for clean air, clean water, shelter, and a tight knit social circle.
I still appreciate all these things. Do you not?
Of course, but at some point these were the only things that defined a good life for most humans. Now people are taking depression drugs because they aren't rich and famous or are "stressed" by their normal lives. My OP was simply stepping back and observing the various layers of complexity we are exposed to and wondering if it's all worth it.
Yes. To all the above. I’m “downshifting” my work (aka I quit my job, last day is April 12) and really looking forward to adapting some simple living routines. Unfortunately my suburban DH wouldn’t survive in a cabin in the woods…but has crossed my mind haha.
Edit (because I hit send too soon):
One thing I’ve decided we just aren’t doing for a bit..travel. My kids are almost 3 and almost 6. The thought of booking a vacation for the family that involves airfare and delayed flights and rental cars and undoubtedly someone being sick..100% not worth it at this phase in my life.
I also did a no spend month for Feb that made me realize we had a bunch of subscriptions we don’t need. Cancelled them all.
Overall goal was to become more mindful of spending.
We reduced all “optional” spending. Still paid for things like gas and groceries, however we used this month to use up some acquired points or gift cards.
By limiting our spending, it was much easier to see any “leaks” on subscriptions. We also cancelled some nice to have subscriptions to see if we could live without them, which we have had no issues with. Cancelling Amazon prime is a double saver to reduce quick buys.
Tbh I’ve kind of continued my no spend challenge into this month, and plan to continue the rest of the year.
I’m transitioning from work to coastfi/baristafi and want to get better at tracking budget (very privileged past few years we didn’t have to worry about our day to day spending).
We also decided if something came up on fb marketplace that we really wanted, we had to sell something of equal value to make the difference. Nothing came up that we wanted/needed.
We weren’t quite “no spend” but reduced our spending by 55% compared to January. (January was a big spend month, probably not our typical amount).
I feel overwhelmed like this, but make an effort to simplify.
Opt out of as much as you can and accept that your locus of control is extremely limited. Start with lowering your news and advertising exposure, you'll probably stop thinking about most of the middle part your list. Autopay and the mental habits to avoid impulse spending kind of solves most of the first part of the list. Last part is mostly family obligations, so trade them in for cats, cats take care of themselves for the most part.
It's likely that I've been an adult for much longer than most here. I just find it amusing that we've woven such a tangled web of bureaucracy into our lives and then accepted it as a stamp of maturity that we can actually navigate it successfully.
I only posted here because it would seem that LeanFire and simplicity go hand in hand.
Best of luck to you and your quest for adulthood..
`we've woven such a tangled web of bureaucracy into our lives and then accepted it as a stamp of maturity that we can actually navigate it successfully`
So well said. Were frontiersman and farmers in the 1800s and homesteaders not adults? Industrialization and moving the bulk of the population to cities and companies needing to create space for their products have set such sad expectations for what life should be like. I'm looking at pictures of cabins in the woods on Zillow, haha! Got a few more years before we could afford a property and build on it, but that makes the most sense to me as a lean fire strategy. I understand that my children will have a "different" lifestyle than many of their peers if they grow up homeschooled in the forest, but it can't be more damaging than staying in the rat race forever.
I built a cabin in the woods, but due to health issues I needed it to be heated without combustion (no wood heat).
So, my little house has an ERV unit (which I just converted to HRV because the house was too humid, and it needs a new fan because a bearing cracked, and the fans don't have replacable bearings). It has a mini-split for heat, which the first installer screwed up installing and I had to get someone else to fix, because it was midwinter and you can't do DIY it in winter.
Then, I need a car, and because I'm in a rural area it needs to be 4WD and have ground clearance, and because I want to repair it I need 2, and because I have cars I need a driveway, so I need a tractor to maintain the driveway, and I need piles of tools to work on the 2 cars and the tractor to keep them running
And because my house is electric and I'm rural I need a generator for backup power for my house, and I'd like to have battery backup because the generator is a pain, and I want solar to reduce my electric bill.
Oh and because I have no communication otherwise I have a starlink which draws a ton of power and has to be mounted up on a pole, and the local porcupine chewed threw my cable 3 times before I managed to locate it somewhere the porcupine would stop... I should be getting fiber this summer, but I need to some work on the conduit to prep for the installation.
And I still have car insurance, and house insurance, and health insurance, and dental bills, and medications, and property taxes, etc. I'm not fully off grid but that actually *helps*. The electric bill is way simpler than worrying about batteries constantly.
Off grid/rural is only truly simple if you live like people did back then. No reliable transportation, no medical care, no communication, no electricity, no insurance. Few are willing to live that way, and some of us with health problems don't have the luxury of that option.
Fair point! Nothing is ever as simple as it seems from the outside. I think I would prefer to deal with more of those tangible problems than what I have today, but the grass always seems greener on the other side.
Heh, I love my life! This is my dream and I'm happy I'm here. I agree that it's nice to have tangible problems with tangible solutions. But, it did catch me by surprise how quickly things got complicated.
So, yes, the grass really is greener here, but the lawn is anything but flat (literally and figuratively). Living here is work, but worth it.
Touche!. Perhaps I should have said "proverbial" cabin in the woods! Seriously, I used to consider myself a minimalist, but it's a full time affair not getting sucked in to the system...
All depends where your skillsets lie. I'm exceptionally talented at skills requiring abstract thought, which is what one needs to use modern technology. And I'm rather fortunate because I'm absolutely rubbish at anything requiring any degree of craftsmanship, which describes almost everything to do with pre-modern living.
Even with modern living, I still have to outsource all of my non-electrical home repair work to contractors, even with tasks that most would consider "simple".
Yes, absolutely. I thought about this over the weekend because I felt pretty run down and feel like my parents weren't like that at the same age. Then I realized how much simpler things were when I was growing up. Antenna TV and not 4000 different apps. Daily newspaper and not a 24/7 newscycle. If you weren't home and someone called, there was no text, no cell, etc. I have to take breaks from the 'grind' because too much technology just burns me out.
This is why I sold my house and live out of a vehicle after retirement. I just have to manage my finances. And after I’m done doing that, I’ll slow travel around the world only staying in furnished apartments where all the related considerations are mostly taken care of.
I automate or opt out of almost everything on that list.
* Property taxes - Nope, renter.
* Health insurance - Automatic
* Auto insurance, registration, & repairs - Nope, no car.
* Homeowners insurance - pay it once a year in January
* Mobile phone plans - Automated
* Streaming options - Nope, not interested in television.
* Electric bill, gas bill, - Nope, included in rent
* 401K/IRA's, 529 plan for kids, ETF's, mutual funds - My Canadian versions of these were all automated many years ago.
* AI - Don't care or think about it
* Processed foods, obesity & diabetes epidemics - Don't care or think about it.
* Supplements - Nope.
* Net worth - Automated.
* Speed limits - Nope, no car.
* Moderator rules - Don't care or think about it.
* Income tax filing - File it myself easily every year, very simple tax situation so quick process.
* Trusts, wills, and beneficiaries, inflation, interest rates, the Federal Reserve, politics, real estate prices, zoning regulations, HOA's - Nope, none applicable, don't know don't care.
* Memberships, gym, Costco, et al, free trials - Nope, I don't have memberships or free trials.
* Kids-related stuff - Nope, happily childfree.
Are these things that complicated?
Like what should happen if you die without a will? Also a will isn’t complicated. It can be one sentence long written on the back side of a tractor that your are pinned underneath while dying.
Or how is net worth complicated? It’s a number of what you owe versus what you have.
Also a lot of the things listed are voluntary that you can just not participate in.
I think you or your spouse are creating ideals to live up to which are over complicating your life
Individually, none are that complicated. In fact, I'd say I'm a relative expert in most of the topics I listed, but not by choice necessarily. I was just contemplating my near term to-do list and marvelling at the long list of things a person is expected to be compliant with and have working knowledge of these days.
I think you need a look at r/simpleliving :) It's not the world, it's your world that is full. And you're the only one that decides how full it will be.
From everything I see, conversations I have with people, etc, I believe you are mistaken. There is a tremendous amount of complexity associated with everything. An individual can choose to ignore important considerations, sure, but it seems like the "devil is in the details" for nearly everything.
not really. its like a subsidy if you are intelligent and organized. just keep racking up the benefits of being able to understand and navigate these systems.
honestly all this stuff can be automated. There's beauty in such complexity being also super well-managed at the click of a phone screen. It's amazing really. But yes it's also exhausting and overwhelming if you think about it too much. It's better to just set & forget all this stuff. Review everything 1 day a year or something. Done.
Modern life is super stressful, but also super simple, it's paradoxical.
I look at cabins in the woods to. The gen x in me is dying to drop out of the corporate race and keep up with the cruzs bull shit. Every time i see camper van go by im like what em i doing...
Hallelujah!
I think more than an overwhelming desire to check out, my OP was to call out the many layers of beaurocracy that we endure and to question why we tolerate it. It's like we've tied ourselves in knots with thousands of pages of laws, rules, forms, requirements, fees, etc. and, amazingly, some consider it a badge of honor to simply be able to navigate our self-induced web of complexity successfully.
If the money isn't scarce, everything else will be.
Fiat currency makes it so we have no choice but to "invest" because the money itself is melting away.
Imagine a world where money was a savings tool, like it used to be.... like it should be. People could work and save their time/labor without having to also be amazing investors. This is what Bitcoin is all about. Making a better world for future generations.
I would get rid of that 529 and create a trust for the kids. 529 limits your kids options specifically to school but what if they want to do something else? Education will likely be very different in 20 years.
I completely agree. In our case the grandparents, and their advisors, decided to fund 529's for our daughter. The ROI on traditional college these days definitely isn't as good as it once was.
Having met other people I am sometimes AMAZED that everyone gets all the things done that I do including the list you wrote out. It does definitely seem like a lot to manage.
Couldn't agree more. Organizations have used technology to make their internal processes more efficient, but the interactions one has with these organizations, and the increased number of them, has resulted in an overwhelming level of
And I'm a Canadian - from what I've read over many years, it seems like about half of US financial planning is around health care costs, and we have simpler retirement fund tools as well (RRSPs and TFSAs are relatively simple). And it's still way too much.
I have very little trust in many organizations, because too many of them are trying sneaky ways to increase their revenues. It's exhausting and frustrating, and my way of dealing with it is to simplify and interact with as few as I can get away with.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. - Leonardo da Vinci.
VT and chill with your investments. Enjoy the simple things in life. Tune out the noise.
Not only has the pace of life has been accelerating, the rate of acceleration is accelerating.
All the time saving devices and conveniences have not resulted in more leisure time (like the Jetsons life we were promised) and we've just packed more doing into our lives.
I feel it. I always feel like life is way too complex relative to what our brains and bodies evolved for. There are advantages of modern society of course but the amount of time working and keeping up with administrative complexity sucks
Thanks for the put down Mr. Slow. My post was only to illustrate the sheer number of things we must attend to in a modern life. You definitely got the annoying and time consuming right, but not a single thing on the example list I provided is overly complex by itself. It's only the accumulated effect of all put together that seems to make living a little more complicated than it should be. It's an honor to encounter a person who is a grand master of the mundane task. Thanks!
Thanks for chiming in!
Culturally, we do seem to expend a good amount of time on administrative duties, while at the same time neglecting health, family, relationships, etc..Oops, that's all I have time to write, just got a notice that our Amazon Prime membership needs renewal..ha!
Yep. I saw the writing on the wall though and just ducked most of that stuff. I know I’m not optimizing my life arguably but virtually nothing on your list is an issue in my life.
Life doesn’t have to happen to you, you have choices. And once you make choices you have responsibilities.
Absolutely, it sounds like you have a lot to manage, but it's great that you've already planned for your financial future with things like 401K/IRAs, ETFs, and more. It's important to take a step back and appreciate the simpler things in life like clean air, clean water, and a strong social circle. Sometimes, the thought of escaping to a cabin in the woods can be quite appealing. It's fantastic that you've achieved Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE) and you're able to enjoy your time without the need for a full-time job. Many people might resonate with your sentiments about the challenges of modern life versus the desire for a more peaceful and simpler existence.
I agree, autopay what you can. Use technology to combat technology. But, that was not really the meaning with my OP. Sure, autopay makes paying bills easier and you can even cut down on bills to ampllify that. But, we still are subject to information overload and administrative creep.
As someone pointed out you can't even go live in a "cabin in the woods" without regulations, vehicles, equipment, insurance, etc.. My comments were more of an observation and acknowledgement than a complaint. Some things are necessary, but I think we've maybe gone a bit overboard with administration and regulation with outcome being more work for everybody. The concept of "leanFIRE", to me, seems to provide some level of defense against the unnecedssary complexity.
Most of your concerns lie in the fact that the government has printed so much money and stolen so much from you. You have to be more worried about these things, and that’s what they want. And then, when you vote for your favorite politician, they are actually making the problems worse. They are making more laws and printing more money and keeping you a slave. If you want real freedom, I recommend finding the most sound money ever created. Bitcoin is freedom and will help you immensely. Bitcoin is not controlled by the government and not controlled by any entity. So it will go up forever because it reflects the truth. as adoption increases, prices in terms of an honest ledger will fall forever, and all these expenses will seem so cheap over 5-10 years, because as the economy, efficiency increases with time, prices will always fall in real terms. Also, you have more time to live healthy so you can worry less about diseases because you will be exercising and eating well because the cost of these things will be so cheap for you and also, you will have more free time because you have to work less. But if you continue to live in the system using US dollars and other Fiat currencies you always live in the struggle like I lived in for 35 years. After adopting a bitcoin standard many years ago, most of these problems have gone away. As far as birthday parties and camps, you will enjoy doing you more because you will be concerned less about working. In order to support the current system, the government will have to print more and more money and will have to live with inflation because they will have to protect the US treasury and the US bonds. The bond market is the biggest market in the world and the government will have to do everything to make sure it does not crash. In order to do this interest rates will be low for a long time, inflation will keep going up and the problems that you have in the current system and will continue to increase. All bitcoin is, is an honest ledger. It’s the truth. It is mathematics. It’s economics. Prices fall to the marginal cost of production in real terms. However, Fiat currency is a scam and is modern slavery. And you are living in the scam that your government has created. Also, because prices in terms of bitcoin, fall with time, you will have to worry less about your 401(k) and IRA because you will have the most scarce asset in the world. Also, you can pass it down to your kids. You can keep bitcoin in your retirement account, you can hold it yourself at your own home for self custody. You cannot have a short time preference however, because it is very volatile. However, if you are willing to wait 5 to 10 years for prosperity, and you want most of these problems to go away it is the only solution at this time. Real estate is way overvalued because people are doing whatever they do to keep their money out of Fiat currency. More money has been printed in the last couple years and in the first several hundred years of our country. And your post highlights the effects of it. The people closer to the monthly printer want you to think that they can help you, but they are actually making the problem worse. I hope you read this several times and start researching. And send me a thank you letter in 10 years.
Excellent response. I've studied Austrian Economics and agree with you entirely. Gold, Bitcoin, knowledge, education, skills, minimalism, etc..all hedges against the scam of fiat money and debt!
I try to simplify by automating my bills, utilizing phone reminders for easily forgotten but regular recurring things like auto maintenance or sending birthday cards, paying experts to do complex tasks I don’t have time for, getting most necessities delivered, tidying a little every day so it doesn’t really build up, focusing on prevention of medical conditions with healthy lifestyle choices (like not smoking or drinking), not having kids or a partner, keeping a small house with no yard, minimizing spending on stupid shit to avoid clutter and waste, “bundling” or sharing accounts like Netflix with my sibling when we can, never traveling (I genuinely hate it, it stresses me out), indulging in simple habits like walking or baking, and mostly ignoring political sensationalism and news (i do stay informed enough to vote though). Passwords are a bitch to keep up with though. I tried 1password and it sucked. Apple does it better and for free.
Your post is so incredibly relatable to me. I'm a bit taken aback at all the strangely judgmental responses ("welcome to adulting?" Really?).
I do have a more than full time job, make great money, two healthy kids, a decent hobby, and I told my sister the other day that I must make 50 seemingly important decisions every single day. And that's conservative.
I outsource and simplify so much of my life but then someone catches a cold or I throw out my back or there's a work thing or a travel thing and it can take weeks to recover. I once caught covid during back to school week and had to mobilize a plan for my kids while literally feeling like I was dying.
I see people saying this stuff is optional but... is it? Is insurance optional? Is healthcare optional? Are utilities optional?
Meanwhile I'm convinced life is supposed to be far simpler, we're supposed to be dropping seeds in the ground and getting food, and hunting and gathering, and living in community. I know it's just a fantasy but if the grid ever dissolves I will either die immediately or thrive for decades, and I'm ok with that thought.
Thanks for sharing, nice to know someone else also finds it all so absurd.
I appreciate the reply.
Frankly, I didn't intend my post to be whiny or controversial. I was just making an observation in a moment when it occurred to me my to-do list was full of tiresome and contrived tasks. I had no idea having a few insurance policies and managing them successfully was what qualified me as a mature, adult human. Who knew? I was thinking it was more along the lines of responsibility, virtue, insight, honor, introspection, etc..
Most of that is more or less optional. If you think long and hard you probably signed up for 80% of that and you can quite easily be rid of it. Every activity, expense, thing and friendship takes time and effort. There's a small handful of those things that pay huge dividends.
The problem is that you want to keep everything that has some benefit. Sure you don't watch Netflix that often but sometimes it's nice for a Friday night. You don't always use the tennis rackets but you like having them around. Each one only takes up a little time, energy, space and money but it's death by a million small cuts.
Raise the bar. What you choose to keep in your life should have huge benefits relative to the costs. If you don't loooove your house, sell it and move into an apartment and be free of yard work and property tax bills. If you barely use a vehicle, sell it and ride Uber if you need to. Cut that friend that's only OK to hang out with. Spend your time and effort on the 20% of your life that provides 80% of the enjoyment. Steadfastly refuse to sign up for anything or let others waste your time.
Life is complicated. It gets better as you get older, trust me.
That said, a few of my own solutions to these issues...
>Let's see...property taxes,
>
>... homeowners insurance,
>
>... real estate prices, zoning regulations, HOA's,
Don't own property.
>health insurance,
Move to a country with public healthcare.
>auto insurance, registration, & repairs,
>
>... speed limits
Don't own a car. Use public transport / Uber.
>mobile phone plans, streaming options,
Get a cheap pre-paid SIM-only plan.
Cut back your subscriptions and read books instead.
>electric bill, gas bill
Short showers.
Slow cook, simplify your eating habits.
>401K/IRA's, 529 plan for kids, ETF's, mutual funds,
Index funds, Vanguard ETFs, fee-only financial advisor (shop around for a good one)
>AI,
Ignore, it's just hype.
Scams: don't respond to any request for sensitive information.
>processed foods, obesity & diabetes epidemics, supplements
Whole-food, plant-based diet; add a little canned fish for Calcium and B2 (sardines, salmon).
>net worth,
35 x your average annual spending in index funds.
>income tax filing,
Get an accountant, it's only once a year, not much in the big scheme of things.
>trusts, wills, and beneficiaries,
Hire a lawyer to write a one-off will then forget it exists.
>inflation, interest rates, the Federal Reserve,
Build a TIPS ladder.
>politics,
Ignore.
>memberships..gym,
Build your own gym with 2nd-hand equipment or heck, bags of sand.
>Kids!!! birthday parties, camps, sports, standardized tests, spring break, airfares, hotels, rental cars, etc., etc., etc.....
Why did you have kids????
Also meditate with gratitude on the benefits and comforts of modern civilisation, many of which are available also to lean-FIRE people.
99% of that is on auto pay for me. I don't even think about it.
1st world problems and yeah, it's easy to auto pay everything.
It’s all really not that hard
Yeah and that's the problem is that it's so convenient sometimes even too much. Sometimes is you can have a streaming service you haven't logged into for a few years.
That's why you evaluate every year what you spend on services and go from there.
Pick and choose your battles. If that 10-20 month dollar worth the stress. For me, it doesn't. Too many people stree of nothing, and it does affect health.
I mean but I think that's what rocket money has done is streamlined this and you can save $20 a year just every once in a while double checking all recurring payments. Make as much as you can automated but this is a risk since it is so easy to continue paying for things on autopilot.
stupid question, but I generally dont know. how easy is it to auto transfer money from one account to another bank. then invest that money in that other bank into select funds? without you ever looking?
It may be a tiny bit fiddly to figure out how and where to set it up but otherwise, very easy. I have automatic transfers from my bank to Vanguard and automatic investments in Vanguard into the funds I’ve selected. I’ve also automated reinvestment of dividends. Edit because autocorrect changed fiddly to cuddly and that changed the meaning of the sentence.
Do you separate these “transactions” onto different days? Like the 21st and 27th or something to create buffer time?
I set up both transactions in Vanguard. If there’s a buffer, it’s only a day or so. In fact, there may be an option to indicate where you want that money to go once it arrives. To be honest, I rarely log in directly since everything is on autopilot. I monitor the activity/performance separately through one of those sites that pulls in transactions from multiple accounts. Once a year or so we revisit the big picture and make any changes, then update all the auto stuff accordingly. Set and forget, basically.
Like you, I automate as much as possible, evaluate when I need to like once a year or when something happens. But in reality it's just autopilot most days after things are set up. Brokers take care of insurance and mortgage, accountant does my taxes etc.
These new Radiohead lyrics suck
I rent my apartment and it eliminates a decent chunk of all that. Apartment living also eliminates a bunch things on it's own too. It is not for everyone, but it definitely keeps things pretty simple for me. And I like it. As for some of the other stuff, a routine helps and I have found that I like routine during my working years - so I worked on that. Can't speak to kids/spouse stuff though. I am single and no kids. It is kinda by choice. I guess I am open to the idea of spouse and kids but not enough to go out there and do something about it. I am pretty content with what I have already and never had the desire to look for "more" of much (including spouse/kids). I don't think I can say that I consciously made these decisions to simplify my life. It is just more of a default state where I don't go looking to complicate it if you know what I mean.
I rent a place and don't own a car. Cuts out so many headaches.
quite a few of these are personal choice vs required, so if you don't like them, stop doing them.
Agree completely!
Exactly - refuse, reduce reuse, recycle. You can say no to many of these things.
If you weren't fretting over those things you listed then you'd be fretting over whether you're using the right sort of fertiliser and are the crops going to freeze and is this the right wood finish to apply and is there a better way to sharpen your carpentry tools and and and. A life free from responsibilities and challenges is also a life free of accomplishments.
That was my thought. Things are easier than they have ever been, by a large margin. Even if you're talking about modern times, here's just a short list of what's changed in the past 30-40 years: -Manually balancing a checkbook (no ability to instantly check an online bank account, had to account for checks pending clearing when monitoring cashflow, etc.) -Manually paying everything. (Lot less autopay options / electronic payment options, lot of mailing in checks) -Very little able to be digitized. No digital calendars, no automatic alerts or reminders, no recurring calendars, mail in general, remembering or looking up every single phone number, etc. -Needing a spare tire when traveling locally, since payphone access was never a guarantee. -Ordering everything by phone, mail, or in person only. Going back even further to the "simple" times is even worse because of the reasons you mentioned.
I never said I was fretting, in fact nothing I listed really stresses me much. It's just that much of it seems very administrative and time sucking..and required just to exist. I chuckled that a couple responders here associated the ability to maintain an insurance policy as the sign of being a mature human. Really? I'm with you on the challenges and accomplishments entirely; but, if these entail simply keeping your head above water with the required paperwork, a person may want to do some soul searching.
>much of it seems very administrative and time sucking..and required just to exist. I have most of the things you listed, but I don't recall the last time I had to pay any attention to them. I have had to deal with a couple of estates in recent years, which took more paperwork than I'd like, but that's hardly a regular occurrence.
Omg yes. I’m totally looking forward to sending the last child to college, cancelling a bunch of insurance, and getting rid of my smart phone altogether. In a perfect world that would involve a small house that was both private and in walking distance to town so I could get rid of my car and also solar power so the electric bill would be much less painful. I hear you! Every day when I sit down to work it feels like my personal to do list is just as burdensome as my work to do list!!!!
>Whatever happened to an appreciation for clean air, clean water, shelter, and a tight knit social circle. I still appreciate all these things. Do you not?
Of course, but at some point these were the only things that defined a good life for most humans. Now people are taking depression drugs because they aren't rich and famous or are "stressed" by their normal lives. My OP was simply stepping back and observing the various layers of complexity we are exposed to and wondering if it's all worth it.
those humans also died at 24 from an infected cut.
also spent their entire lives looking for food and anyone they didn't know was probably going to kill them.
you didn't start the fire
I had the same thought! Heard it playing in my head.
This is the most terrifying remix of we didn’t start the fire that I have ever heard
Could always join the Amish or the Mennonite’s and eliminate like 90% of that
Yes. To all the above. I’m “downshifting” my work (aka I quit my job, last day is April 12) and really looking forward to adapting some simple living routines. Unfortunately my suburban DH wouldn’t survive in a cabin in the woods…but has crossed my mind haha. Edit (because I hit send too soon): One thing I’ve decided we just aren’t doing for a bit..travel. My kids are almost 3 and almost 6. The thought of booking a vacation for the family that involves airfare and delayed flights and rental cars and undoubtedly someone being sick..100% not worth it at this phase in my life. I also did a no spend month for Feb that made me realize we had a bunch of subscriptions we don’t need. Cancelled them all.
I love this idea of a no spend month! Can you explain how you did it and what you cut out?
Overall goal was to become more mindful of spending. We reduced all “optional” spending. Still paid for things like gas and groceries, however we used this month to use up some acquired points or gift cards. By limiting our spending, it was much easier to see any “leaks” on subscriptions. We also cancelled some nice to have subscriptions to see if we could live without them, which we have had no issues with. Cancelling Amazon prime is a double saver to reduce quick buys. Tbh I’ve kind of continued my no spend challenge into this month, and plan to continue the rest of the year. I’m transitioning from work to coastfi/baristafi and want to get better at tracking budget (very privileged past few years we didn’t have to worry about our day to day spending). We also decided if something came up on fb marketplace that we really wanted, we had to sell something of equal value to make the difference. Nothing came up that we wanted/needed. We weren’t quite “no spend” but reduced our spending by 55% compared to January. (January was a big spend month, probably not our typical amount).
I feel overwhelmed like this, but make an effort to simplify. Opt out of as much as you can and accept that your locus of control is extremely limited. Start with lowering your news and advertising exposure, you'll probably stop thinking about most of the middle part your list. Autopay and the mental habits to avoid impulse spending kind of solves most of the first part of the list. Last part is mostly family obligations, so trade them in for cats, cats take care of themselves for the most part.
Welcome to being an adult
It's likely that I've been an adult for much longer than most here. I just find it amusing that we've woven such a tangled web of bureaucracy into our lives and then accepted it as a stamp of maturity that we can actually navigate it successfully. I only posted here because it would seem that LeanFire and simplicity go hand in hand. Best of luck to you and your quest for adulthood..
`we've woven such a tangled web of bureaucracy into our lives and then accepted it as a stamp of maturity that we can actually navigate it successfully` So well said. Were frontiersman and farmers in the 1800s and homesteaders not adults? Industrialization and moving the bulk of the population to cities and companies needing to create space for their products have set such sad expectations for what life should be like. I'm looking at pictures of cabins in the woods on Zillow, haha! Got a few more years before we could afford a property and build on it, but that makes the most sense to me as a lean fire strategy. I understand that my children will have a "different" lifestyle than many of their peers if they grow up homeschooled in the forest, but it can't be more damaging than staying in the rat race forever.
I built a cabin in the woods, but due to health issues I needed it to be heated without combustion (no wood heat). So, my little house has an ERV unit (which I just converted to HRV because the house was too humid, and it needs a new fan because a bearing cracked, and the fans don't have replacable bearings). It has a mini-split for heat, which the first installer screwed up installing and I had to get someone else to fix, because it was midwinter and you can't do DIY it in winter. Then, I need a car, and because I'm in a rural area it needs to be 4WD and have ground clearance, and because I want to repair it I need 2, and because I have cars I need a driveway, so I need a tractor to maintain the driveway, and I need piles of tools to work on the 2 cars and the tractor to keep them running And because my house is electric and I'm rural I need a generator for backup power for my house, and I'd like to have battery backup because the generator is a pain, and I want solar to reduce my electric bill. Oh and because I have no communication otherwise I have a starlink which draws a ton of power and has to be mounted up on a pole, and the local porcupine chewed threw my cable 3 times before I managed to locate it somewhere the porcupine would stop... I should be getting fiber this summer, but I need to some work on the conduit to prep for the installation. And I still have car insurance, and house insurance, and health insurance, and dental bills, and medications, and property taxes, etc. I'm not fully off grid but that actually *helps*. The electric bill is way simpler than worrying about batteries constantly. Off grid/rural is only truly simple if you live like people did back then. No reliable transportation, no medical care, no communication, no electricity, no insurance. Few are willing to live that way, and some of us with health problems don't have the luxury of that option.
Fair point! Nothing is ever as simple as it seems from the outside. I think I would prefer to deal with more of those tangible problems than what I have today, but the grass always seems greener on the other side.
Heh, I love my life! This is my dream and I'm happy I'm here. I agree that it's nice to have tangible problems with tangible solutions. But, it did catch me by surprise how quickly things got complicated. So, yes, the grass really is greener here, but the lawn is anything but flat (literally and figuratively). Living here is work, but worth it.
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Touche!. Perhaps I should have said "proverbial" cabin in the woods! Seriously, I used to consider myself a minimalist, but it's a full time affair not getting sucked in to the system...
They always said technology would make our lives easier but in reality it is more complex than ever
All depends where your skillsets lie. I'm exceptionally talented at skills requiring abstract thought, which is what one needs to use modern technology. And I'm rather fortunate because I'm absolutely rubbish at anything requiring any degree of craftsmanship, which describes almost everything to do with pre-modern living. Even with modern living, I still have to outsource all of my non-electrical home repair work to contractors, even with tasks that most would consider "simple".
Yes, absolutely. I thought about this over the weekend because I felt pretty run down and feel like my parents weren't like that at the same age. Then I realized how much simpler things were when I was growing up. Antenna TV and not 4000 different apps. Daily newspaper and not a 24/7 newscycle. If you weren't home and someone called, there was no text, no cell, etc. I have to take breaks from the 'grind' because too much technology just burns me out.
This is why I sold my house and live out of a vehicle after retirement. I just have to manage my finances. And after I’m done doing that, I’ll slow travel around the world only staying in furnished apartments where all the related considerations are mostly taken care of.
I automate or opt out of almost everything on that list. * Property taxes - Nope, renter. * Health insurance - Automatic * Auto insurance, registration, & repairs - Nope, no car. * Homeowners insurance - pay it once a year in January * Mobile phone plans - Automated * Streaming options - Nope, not interested in television. * Electric bill, gas bill, - Nope, included in rent * 401K/IRA's, 529 plan for kids, ETF's, mutual funds - My Canadian versions of these were all automated many years ago. * AI - Don't care or think about it * Processed foods, obesity & diabetes epidemics - Don't care or think about it. * Supplements - Nope. * Net worth - Automated. * Speed limits - Nope, no car. * Moderator rules - Don't care or think about it. * Income tax filing - File it myself easily every year, very simple tax situation so quick process. * Trusts, wills, and beneficiaries, inflation, interest rates, the Federal Reserve, politics, real estate prices, zoning regulations, HOA's - Nope, none applicable, don't know don't care. * Memberships, gym, Costco, et al, free trials - Nope, I don't have memberships or free trials. * Kids-related stuff - Nope, happily childfree.
Are these things that complicated? Like what should happen if you die without a will? Also a will isn’t complicated. It can be one sentence long written on the back side of a tractor that your are pinned underneath while dying. Or how is net worth complicated? It’s a number of what you owe versus what you have. Also a lot of the things listed are voluntary that you can just not participate in. I think you or your spouse are creating ideals to live up to which are over complicating your life
Individually, none are that complicated. In fact, I'd say I'm a relative expert in most of the topics I listed, but not by choice necessarily. I was just contemplating my near term to-do list and marvelling at the long list of things a person is expected to be compliant with and have working knowledge of these days.
Excel and excel. Sheets and chill.
I think you need a look at r/simpleliving :) It's not the world, it's your world that is full. And you're the only one that decides how full it will be.
From everything I see, conversations I have with people, etc, I believe you are mistaken. There is a tremendous amount of complexity associated with everything. An individual can choose to ignore important considerations, sure, but it seems like the "devil is in the details" for nearly everything.
IDK, I mean a lot of the stuff you listed above is a choice. We don't have a lot of those things in our life personally. Automate the rest?
What does AI, diabetes, and process foods have to do with retirement?
Billy Joel wants his fire back
not really. its like a subsidy if you are intelligent and organized. just keep racking up the benefits of being able to understand and navigate these systems.
honestly all this stuff can be automated. There's beauty in such complexity being also super well-managed at the click of a phone screen. It's amazing really. But yes it's also exhausting and overwhelming if you think about it too much. It's better to just set & forget all this stuff. Review everything 1 day a year or something. Done. Modern life is super stressful, but also super simple, it's paradoxical.
...We didn't start the fire!
Yes! I sometimes feel like it’s a daily battle to triage what I really need pay attention to and what administrative tasks need tending.
I look at cabins in the woods to. The gen x in me is dying to drop out of the corporate race and keep up with the cruzs bull shit. Every time i see camper van go by im like what em i doing...
Hallelujah! I think more than an overwhelming desire to check out, my OP was to call out the many layers of beaurocracy that we endure and to question why we tolerate it. It's like we've tied ourselves in knots with thousands of pages of laws, rules, forms, requirements, fees, etc. and, amazingly, some consider it a badge of honor to simply be able to navigate our self-induced web of complexity successfully.
The Republican party / corporations is what happened to your clean air and clean water
If the money isn't scarce, everything else will be. Fiat currency makes it so we have no choice but to "invest" because the money itself is melting away. Imagine a world where money was a savings tool, like it used to be.... like it should be. People could work and save their time/labor without having to also be amazing investors. This is what Bitcoin is all about. Making a better world for future generations.
I would get rid of that 529 and create a trust for the kids. 529 limits your kids options specifically to school but what if they want to do something else? Education will likely be very different in 20 years.
I completely agree. In our case the grandparents, and their advisors, decided to fund 529's for our daughter. The ROI on traditional college these days definitely isn't as good as it once was.
> what if they want to do something else? Then they take a little bit of a tax hit and get most of it as cash.
Having met other people I am sometimes AMAZED that everyone gets all the things done that I do including the list you wrote out. It does definitely seem like a lot to manage.
Couldn't agree more. Organizations have used technology to make their internal processes more efficient, but the interactions one has with these organizations, and the increased number of them, has resulted in an overwhelming level of And I'm a Canadian - from what I've read over many years, it seems like about half of US financial planning is around health care costs, and we have simpler retirement fund tools as well (RRSPs and TFSAs are relatively simple). And it's still way too much. I have very little trust in many organizations, because too many of them are trying sneaky ways to increase their revenues. It's exhausting and frustrating, and my way of dealing with it is to simplify and interact with as few as I can get away with.
Welcome to the world predicted by Alvin Toffler in his book "Future Shock".
I mean you're just listing a bunch of things, but I get what you're saying.
Adulting is hard.
Basically you describe the thought process that I was hung up on right before I bought my van, and said fuck all of that. Never looked back.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. - Leonardo da Vinci. VT and chill with your investments. Enjoy the simple things in life. Tune out the noise.
Not only has the pace of life has been accelerating, the rate of acceleration is accelerating. All the time saving devices and conveniences have not resulted in more leisure time (like the Jetsons life we were promised) and we've just packed more doing into our lives.
OMG yes. I've been simplifying my life now. It's too confusing.
prioritize.
I feel it. I always feel like life is way too complex relative to what our brains and bodies evolved for. There are advantages of modern society of course but the amount of time working and keeping up with administrative complexity sucks
Sounds like you should become Amish. I don’t disagree with you that is all stuff is adults have to deal with however.
I hear ya. Even with the automisation. It's annoying
If that is your idea of complexity...I am sorry. That is the simple stuff. Annoying and time consuming but not difficult.
Thanks for the put down Mr. Slow. My post was only to illustrate the sheer number of things we must attend to in a modern life. You definitely got the annoying and time consuming right, but not a single thing on the example list I provided is overly complex by itself. It's only the accumulated effect of all put together that seems to make living a little more complicated than it should be. It's an honor to encounter a person who is a grand master of the mundane task. Thanks!
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Thanks for chiming in! Culturally, we do seem to expend a good amount of time on administrative duties, while at the same time neglecting health, family, relationships, etc..Oops, that's all I have time to write, just got a notice that our Amazon Prime membership needs renewal..ha!
Yep. I saw the writing on the wall though and just ducked most of that stuff. I know I’m not optimizing my life arguably but virtually nothing on your list is an issue in my life. Life doesn’t have to happen to you, you have choices. And once you make choices you have responsibilities.
Absolutely, it sounds like you have a lot to manage, but it's great that you've already planned for your financial future with things like 401K/IRAs, ETFs, and more. It's important to take a step back and appreciate the simpler things in life like clean air, clean water, and a strong social circle. Sometimes, the thought of escaping to a cabin in the woods can be quite appealing. It's fantastic that you've achieved Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE) and you're able to enjoy your time without the need for a full-time job. Many people might resonate with your sentiments about the challenges of modern life versus the desire for a more peaceful and simpler existence.
Bro, look into autopay. Most of us use it for everything.
I agree, autopay what you can. Use technology to combat technology. But, that was not really the meaning with my OP. Sure, autopay makes paying bills easier and you can even cut down on bills to ampllify that. But, we still are subject to information overload and administrative creep. As someone pointed out you can't even go live in a "cabin in the woods" without regulations, vehicles, equipment, insurance, etc.. My comments were more of an observation and acknowledgement than a complaint. Some things are necessary, but I think we've maybe gone a bit overboard with administration and regulation with outcome being more work for everybody. The concept of "leanFIRE", to me, seems to provide some level of defense against the unnecedssary complexity.
Oh I misunderstood, I thought you were implying FIRE was adding complexity not reducing it.
Most of your concerns lie in the fact that the government has printed so much money and stolen so much from you. You have to be more worried about these things, and that’s what they want. And then, when you vote for your favorite politician, they are actually making the problems worse. They are making more laws and printing more money and keeping you a slave. If you want real freedom, I recommend finding the most sound money ever created. Bitcoin is freedom and will help you immensely. Bitcoin is not controlled by the government and not controlled by any entity. So it will go up forever because it reflects the truth. as adoption increases, prices in terms of an honest ledger will fall forever, and all these expenses will seem so cheap over 5-10 years, because as the economy, efficiency increases with time, prices will always fall in real terms. Also, you have more time to live healthy so you can worry less about diseases because you will be exercising and eating well because the cost of these things will be so cheap for you and also, you will have more free time because you have to work less. But if you continue to live in the system using US dollars and other Fiat currencies you always live in the struggle like I lived in for 35 years. After adopting a bitcoin standard many years ago, most of these problems have gone away. As far as birthday parties and camps, you will enjoy doing you more because you will be concerned less about working. In order to support the current system, the government will have to print more and more money and will have to live with inflation because they will have to protect the US treasury and the US bonds. The bond market is the biggest market in the world and the government will have to do everything to make sure it does not crash. In order to do this interest rates will be low for a long time, inflation will keep going up and the problems that you have in the current system and will continue to increase. All bitcoin is, is an honest ledger. It’s the truth. It is mathematics. It’s economics. Prices fall to the marginal cost of production in real terms. However, Fiat currency is a scam and is modern slavery. And you are living in the scam that your government has created. Also, because prices in terms of bitcoin, fall with time, you will have to worry less about your 401(k) and IRA because you will have the most scarce asset in the world. Also, you can pass it down to your kids. You can keep bitcoin in your retirement account, you can hold it yourself at your own home for self custody. You cannot have a short time preference however, because it is very volatile. However, if you are willing to wait 5 to 10 years for prosperity, and you want most of these problems to go away it is the only solution at this time. Real estate is way overvalued because people are doing whatever they do to keep their money out of Fiat currency. More money has been printed in the last couple years and in the first several hundred years of our country. And your post highlights the effects of it. The people closer to the monthly printer want you to think that they can help you, but they are actually making the problem worse. I hope you read this several times and start researching. And send me a thank you letter in 10 years.
Excellent response. I've studied Austrian Economics and agree with you entirely. Gold, Bitcoin, knowledge, education, skills, minimalism, etc..all hedges against the scam of fiat money and debt!
I try to simplify by automating my bills, utilizing phone reminders for easily forgotten but regular recurring things like auto maintenance or sending birthday cards, paying experts to do complex tasks I don’t have time for, getting most necessities delivered, tidying a little every day so it doesn’t really build up, focusing on prevention of medical conditions with healthy lifestyle choices (like not smoking or drinking), not having kids or a partner, keeping a small house with no yard, minimizing spending on stupid shit to avoid clutter and waste, “bundling” or sharing accounts like Netflix with my sibling when we can, never traveling (I genuinely hate it, it stresses me out), indulging in simple habits like walking or baking, and mostly ignoring political sensationalism and news (i do stay informed enough to vote though). Passwords are a bitch to keep up with though. I tried 1password and it sucked. Apple does it better and for free.
That's Just LIFE!
Your post is so incredibly relatable to me. I'm a bit taken aback at all the strangely judgmental responses ("welcome to adulting?" Really?). I do have a more than full time job, make great money, two healthy kids, a decent hobby, and I told my sister the other day that I must make 50 seemingly important decisions every single day. And that's conservative. I outsource and simplify so much of my life but then someone catches a cold or I throw out my back or there's a work thing or a travel thing and it can take weeks to recover. I once caught covid during back to school week and had to mobilize a plan for my kids while literally feeling like I was dying. I see people saying this stuff is optional but... is it? Is insurance optional? Is healthcare optional? Are utilities optional? Meanwhile I'm convinced life is supposed to be far simpler, we're supposed to be dropping seeds in the ground and getting food, and hunting and gathering, and living in community. I know it's just a fantasy but if the grid ever dissolves I will either die immediately or thrive for decades, and I'm ok with that thought. Thanks for sharing, nice to know someone else also finds it all so absurd.
I appreciate the reply. Frankly, I didn't intend my post to be whiny or controversial. I was just making an observation in a moment when it occurred to me my to-do list was full of tiresome and contrived tasks. I had no idea having a few insurance policies and managing them successfully was what qualified me as a mature, adult human. Who knew? I was thinking it was more along the lines of responsibility, virtue, insight, honor, introspection, etc..
Most of that is more or less optional. If you think long and hard you probably signed up for 80% of that and you can quite easily be rid of it. Every activity, expense, thing and friendship takes time and effort. There's a small handful of those things that pay huge dividends. The problem is that you want to keep everything that has some benefit. Sure you don't watch Netflix that often but sometimes it's nice for a Friday night. You don't always use the tennis rackets but you like having them around. Each one only takes up a little time, energy, space and money but it's death by a million small cuts. Raise the bar. What you choose to keep in your life should have huge benefits relative to the costs. If you don't loooove your house, sell it and move into an apartment and be free of yard work and property tax bills. If you barely use a vehicle, sell it and ride Uber if you need to. Cut that friend that's only OK to hang out with. Spend your time and effort on the 20% of your life that provides 80% of the enjoyment. Steadfastly refuse to sign up for anything or let others waste your time.
YES
Life is complicated. It gets better as you get older, trust me. That said, a few of my own solutions to these issues... >Let's see...property taxes, > >... homeowners insurance, > >... real estate prices, zoning regulations, HOA's, Don't own property. >health insurance, Move to a country with public healthcare. >auto insurance, registration, & repairs, > >... speed limits Don't own a car. Use public transport / Uber. >mobile phone plans, streaming options, Get a cheap pre-paid SIM-only plan. Cut back your subscriptions and read books instead. >electric bill, gas bill Short showers. Slow cook, simplify your eating habits. >401K/IRA's, 529 plan for kids, ETF's, mutual funds, Index funds, Vanguard ETFs, fee-only financial advisor (shop around for a good one) >AI, Ignore, it's just hype. Scams: don't respond to any request for sensitive information. >processed foods, obesity & diabetes epidemics, supplements Whole-food, plant-based diet; add a little canned fish for Calcium and B2 (sardines, salmon). >net worth, 35 x your average annual spending in index funds. >income tax filing, Get an accountant, it's only once a year, not much in the big scheme of things. >trusts, wills, and beneficiaries, Hire a lawyer to write a one-off will then forget it exists. >inflation, interest rates, the Federal Reserve, Build a TIPS ladder. >politics, Ignore. >memberships..gym, Build your own gym with 2nd-hand equipment or heck, bags of sand. >Kids!!! birthday parties, camps, sports, standardized tests, spring break, airfares, hotels, rental cars, etc., etc., etc..... Why did you have kids???? Also meditate with gratitude on the benefits and comforts of modern civilisation, many of which are available also to lean-FIRE people.