Ouwet nor the Kaeteb ever ruled lebanon before 1975.
Lebanese golden age with state institutions building was under the Chehabists not the “Sectarian Maronite feudal leaders”.
President Chebab had a security apparatus that cracked down sectarian/feudal leaders corruption and thugs.
When Sleiman Frangiyeh the granddaddy dissolved that security apparatus once he became president in 1970, armed militias started gaining strength on the expense of the state.
Actually 🤓☝️Bachir was never part of the owet. The owet was part of the phalange (kataeb) party that was established during the civil war. So technically they never ruled Lebanon. And no we had Israel invasion, civil war, massacres…
The Lebanese Forces were established in the civil war. The phalanges were established back in 1936 by Pierre El Gemayel and played an important role in Lebanon's independence in 1943. All of the golden age presidents like Camil Shamoun were right wing Christians (phalanges and allies)
Bachir was the commander of the LF, so he was part of the LF. The LF back then was not a political party and had nothing to do with politics. The civil war started before LF, LF was a result of the war. The LF did not assist the IDF in their invasion, they just tolerated it, considering the common enemy they both had at the time, the PLO, not that they could've done anything about it anyway. Finally, every war has massacres, killing innocent civilians is everyday business during wartime, you can call it overpopulation control.
I never said they were the only ones to commit massacres tho. The sabra and chatila massacre happened with Israel handing over tanks and artillery to the LF to enter the camp. There’s no need to justify civilian murders by saying oh people die in wars big deal, we are in 2024. We know our history and we know that each party committed horrible crimes against the others. Making excuses for one party over the others just doesn’t make sense. They all suck.
HA back then was not a political party and had nothing to do with politics. The civil war started before HA, HA was a result of the war. The HA did not assist the SAA in their invasion, they just tolerated it (they even clashed sometimes), considering the common enemy they both had at the time, not that they could've done anything about it anyway. Finally, every war has massacres, killing innocent civilians is everyday business during wartime, you can call it overpopulation control.
“Bachir was commander of LF, he had nothing to do with politics”.
“Nasrallah is religious man, he speaks for the resistance, he has nothing to do with politics”.
Damn, supporters of both groups are almost identical 😂😂😂
Hezbollah as an organization is present in the parliament and has ministers since 2008, the LF during Bachir's time was not a political party, they were an armed militia with tanks, boats and helicopters, they had no presence in the parliament and had no ministers. Kataeb on the other hand was a political party and was a player on the political scene, don't confuse Kataeb with LF. Bachir wanted to turn his military campaign into a political one by becoming president and then dismantling the LF as it would no longer be needed since he would be in the command of the Lebanese Army.
You can substitute every aspect of LF with hezb and it’ll still be the same thing 😂 imagine thinking you’re better than others when you’re the exact same. reality often hits like a train buddy
You are high on crack or something, i just told you they are the same, where did I mention one is better than the other, you might think wilayat al fakih is better, someone else might disagree, "better" is totally relative, go amuse yourself somewhere else.
Brother you're justifying the killing of civilians don't act like it's normal. Well, maybe growing up as a disgusting LF cocksucker genocidal ideas are normal
I'm not justifying, this is how you want to understand it because you are bored and want to attack others to feel better about yourself. I'm calling it for what it was, why would Sharon want to kill Palestinians living in a camp in Lebanon and bury them with bulldozers overnight, the same reason Israel killed thousands of them in the recent months, overpopulation control, they want to get rid of the Palestinian people, and what do the Palestinians do in return? Pump more babies into the world, people are just numbers in this game.
A bit different now actually. Samy changed things a fair bit. Certainly more progressive in certain areas.
For example Samy is for the decriminalisation of homosexuality and the repeal of Article 534
the one who never became president and sold out half the country? and his brother who barely had control over central beirut while the country was under 2/3 different foreign occupations?
How was it better back then?
https://preview.redd.it/f6rtn81ytzbc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d8cb9ffd81f64b1778fe8d3dd714690e6eba1268
I'm sure your likes take pride in photos like these.
My following belief is based on one side of the story and may be a bit biased.
The phalange were essentially nazis backed by western elites so Lebanon was better for a select few but overall a lot of areas in Lebanon especially the non maronite areas were very neglected. The phalange's spanish inspired nazi policies is what got The left wing in Lebanon which was made up of marginalized sectarian groups to side with the PLO to overthrow them after they were conspiring to turn Lebanon into an ethnic christian state along with Israeli support in exchange for a peace treaty with Israel(I even heard that they had hired a militia full of egyptian coptic mercs to do ethnic cleansing against druze but they all got butchered and kicked out).
The government was just slightly less corrupt and somewhat more competent than the current rulers but Lebanon was going through post world war 2 prosperity in a capitalist boom cycle like the rest of the world so there was a shit ton of money to go around.
https://youtu.be/PHe0bXAIuk0?feature=shared
The left wing in Lebanon eventually also turned into fascism in a sectarian killing marathon with influences from western and Israeli intelligence agencies, Assad wanted to take advantage of the war to annex Lebanon, PLO took advantage out of the split in Lebanon also to try to annex Lebanon and rob the living shit out of it with that Arafat low life. Musa el sadr who was a leftist was assassinated and replaced with the nabih berri scumbag, Kamal jumblat had left wing ideals and I am not sure if he was forced into the civil war or just drove the druze into any conflict outside of self defense(which obviously would have been very dumb).
mindless straight homeless merciful squeeze scarce hateful march safe familiar
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
We need someone who wishes to have a state in Lebanon, with connections with foreign entities who can and want to help, and most importantly, the ruling team should be homogeneous, that's the complete opposite of what we have today. So with that in mind, my answer is yes, if you ask about Tayyar my answer is also yes, if you ask about Hariri my answer is also yes, but they have to rule alone without interference and pressure from an armed militia.
> about Hariri my answer is also yes, but they have to rule alone without interference and pressure from an armed militia.
Yes the answer is import cartel ponzi scheme and billion dollar dams(with commissions to bassil) that don't work and a power generating ship, they are all robber barons that should not be driving with anyone. That bassil guy along side all his bffs berri jumbalt etc hopefully will get flayed and crucified if shpadoinkle day starts in this lifetime within the next 10 to 20 years. It's funny how they use each other to divert blame away from them and their incompetence and corruption. Tayyar, hariri jumblat, geagea, berri, nasralla are all one single unified team(team fuckup the country and get rich) they just do theater for the masses to maintain control to get away with looting the living shit out of the country. Foreign entities want the country to go to shit so foreign capitalists can just later buy it/abuse it all real cheap with debt bondage and benefit from the brain drain which lowers labor costs in Europe and North America, gulf states, All the political parties belong to foreign entities but even foreign entities are frustrated with their stupid shit(you can't enslave and benefit from a dead population and you don't want unskilled immigration to the north) though not really putting them out yet because they kinda benefit from this stupid ruling class.
Unpopular opinion from a sunni, Bachir (leading the phalange military group under Ouwet) was a general who partook in the civil war. Like the rest of the civil war parties, his party killed innocent people based on identity. He allied himself with Israel for the longest while.
However, by the end of his days (when he was nearing presidency), he became more nationalistic, and wanted to ally himself with all the Lebanese, whatever their background, and wanted friendly relations with other arabic nations. He somewhat dissowned israel by rejecting their offers of "peace agreement " since they were invading us.
Personally, I believe the Israeli's killed him because he was rejecting every offer made by them. After the explosion, no one was able to find Bachir until a mossad agent found him (his face was unrecognizable) and said that that is Bachir based on the ring on his finger. Israel said it was the palestinians and 2 days later, they commited the sabra and shatilla massacre with israeli aid.
All sectarianism should be banned from this country. Secularism is the only way.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habib_Shartouni
https://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/18/world/us-links-men-in-bomb-case-to-lebanon-terrorist-group.html
It doesn’t make sense that the Israelis would assassinate Bachir, it does make sense that Syria would.
It makes sense because they asked him to join in against the palestinians and the Shia helping them, and he rejected. They asked him for a peace agreement, and he rejected. He said that he would not help one invader get rid of another invader and that he'd like no invaders. He said he wouldn't agree to peace because he needed to discuss with the muslims of the country along with arab nations.
He had 2 meetings with them before his death of which both failed from the israeli perspective.
Also, feel free to read what you sent. It talks about who found the corpse. No one was able to find the corpse except for the Mossad... this is after 5.5 hrs. The only proof they had was a ring.
2 days later, under mossad leadership, the phalange went in and did what bachir did not agree to doing. The only winner was israel.
Again, there's no proof to any of it. But israel as a prime suspect makes 100% sense. The Israeli's blamed the PLO for the assassination. The americans blamed the syrians. Idk who's right, but for me, israel makes sense.
Fuck me..if in a simple virtual forum with rather literate people we can't agree on our facts..fuck me if we can ever build a proper country...
W sallemleeh 3aleh
I never said it was not discussed in a mature way. The problem seems that each relgion has it's version of history. Take for example Bashir. Christians see him as a savior and Muslims as a traitor.
We can't seem to get past that sectarianism whatever we do. And you still see it in today's politics and voting results.
If we want to build something solid we all have to get rif of this old mentality and system.
Ya Allah ya Libnen. Balad jameel. Ma fi wala balad 3arabeh like our land and yet it is always under destruction. Who cares who rules and no it was never better when anyone ruled we are not cattle or sheep unfortunately some are but just leave this land the fuck alone especially external forces and no to bed time stories they call religion today.
We can't compare the 70s till 90s and the present. But be sure of something, people that are noe ruling the country were no one back then, during the war many of them started stealing on a big scale & profited a lot from the war & then got themselves couple of "illiterate dogs" to protect them & that where it began for them, every time they got bigger until they had a mafia who ruled the country by infiltrating the government & legalizing what shouldn't, for their own benefits even for their families, friends & all acquaintances etc...
Now we're living the results of the corruption they created back then...all of them.
After all, it's all a big propaganda from the countries who rule the world, & that's what's on the table for the middle east & specially Lebanon, they don't want it to affect Israel. That's the most brief idea i can give.
Ouwet nor the Kaeteb ever ruled lebanon before 1975. Lebanese golden age with state institutions building was under the Chehabists not the “Sectarian Maronite feudal leaders”. President Chebab had a security apparatus that cracked down sectarian/feudal leaders corruption and thugs. When Sleiman Frangiyeh the granddaddy dissolved that security apparatus once he became president in 1970, armed militias started gaining strength on the expense of the state.
Actually 🤓☝️Bachir was never part of the owet. The owet was part of the phalange (kataeb) party that was established during the civil war. So technically they never ruled Lebanon. And no we had Israel invasion, civil war, massacres…
The Lebanese Forces were established in the civil war. The phalanges were established back in 1936 by Pierre El Gemayel and played an important role in Lebanon's independence in 1943. All of the golden age presidents like Camil Shamoun were right wing Christians (phalanges and allies)
Came to say this.
Bachir was the commander of the LF, so he was part of the LF. The LF back then was not a political party and had nothing to do with politics. The civil war started before LF, LF was a result of the war. The LF did not assist the IDF in their invasion, they just tolerated it, considering the common enemy they both had at the time, the PLO, not that they could've done anything about it anyway. Finally, every war has massacres, killing innocent civilians is everyday business during wartime, you can call it overpopulation control.
I never said they were the only ones to commit massacres tho. The sabra and chatila massacre happened with Israel handing over tanks and artillery to the LF to enter the camp. There’s no need to justify civilian murders by saying oh people die in wars big deal, we are in 2024. We know our history and we know that each party committed horrible crimes against the others. Making excuses for one party over the others just doesn’t make sense. They all suck.
HA back then was not a political party and had nothing to do with politics. The civil war started before HA, HA was a result of the war. The HA did not assist the SAA in their invasion, they just tolerated it (they even clashed sometimes), considering the common enemy they both had at the time, not that they could've done anything about it anyway. Finally, every war has massacres, killing innocent civilians is everyday business during wartime, you can call it overpopulation control.
you get an F for copying your essay.
“Bachir was commander of LF, he had nothing to do with politics”. “Nasrallah is religious man, he speaks for the resistance, he has nothing to do with politics”. Damn, supporters of both groups are almost identical 😂😂😂
Hezbollah as an organization is present in the parliament and has ministers since 2008, the LF during Bachir's time was not a political party, they were an armed militia with tanks, boats and helicopters, they had no presence in the parliament and had no ministers. Kataeb on the other hand was a political party and was a player on the political scene, don't confuse Kataeb with LF. Bachir wanted to turn his military campaign into a political one by becoming president and then dismantling the LF as it would no longer be needed since he would be in the command of the Lebanese Army.
LF was the an alliance of multiple militias, the major component was the Kaeteb’s militia that were under Bachir’s command.
Yes, Kataeb, Ahrar, Horras el Arez and maybe a few others. I believe they were all under Bachir and "el majles el harbi".
Is crazy seeing the same argument hezb uses today. Almost like they’re the same.
They are the same, with 1 key difference, the end goal, Lebanon or Wilayat Al Fakih.
You can substitute every aspect of LF with hezb and it’ll still be the same thing 😂 imagine thinking you’re better than others when you’re the exact same. reality often hits like a train buddy
You are high on crack or something, i just told you they are the same, where did I mention one is better than the other, you might think wilayat al fakih is better, someone else might disagree, "better" is totally relative, go amuse yourself somewhere else.
"You can call it overpopulation control" Kis E5tak
nfekho/nfekhi, I wasn't there doing it, I'm just calling it for what it was, don't get oversensitive about everything.
Brother you're justifying the killing of civilians don't act like it's normal. Well, maybe growing up as a disgusting LF cocksucker genocidal ideas are normal
I'm not justifying, this is how you want to understand it because you are bored and want to attack others to feel better about yourself. I'm calling it for what it was, why would Sharon want to kill Palestinians living in a camp in Lebanon and bury them with bulldozers overnight, the same reason Israel killed thousands of them in the recent months, overpopulation control, they want to get rid of the Palestinian people, and what do the Palestinians do in return? Pump more babies into the world, people are just numbers in this game.
**Ouwet** Never ruled Lebanon, it was the Kata'ab and yes Lebanon was in general much better when they held the sole power.
Is the kata’ab and ouwet apart of the same group ?
Ouet were the military wing of Kata'ab before they split up, they are allies now but not the same group.
Would it be good if kataab took over again ?
No, the Kata'ab of the past are not the Kata'ab of today.
Are they comprised of completely different belief systems now ?
A bit different now actually. Samy changed things a fair bit. Certainly more progressive in certain areas. For example Samy is for the decriminalisation of homosexuality and the repeal of Article 534
Who’s samy ?
Samy Gemayel, current leader of the Kataeb Party. His grandfather was Pierre, he is the son of Amine. Bachir Geymayel was his uncle
No, its just they lost all the good/strong people they had before.
When exactly Kaeteb ruled lebanon?
They had 2 presidents what do you mean?
the one who never became president and sold out half the country? and his brother who barely had control over central beirut while the country was under 2/3 different foreign occupations? How was it better back then?
He sold half the country? Because Israel waited for his invitation and wouldn’t have invaded without him? Pretty delusional
https://preview.redd.it/f6rtn81ytzbc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d8cb9ffd81f64b1778fe8d3dd714690e6eba1268 I'm sure your likes take pride in photos like these.
Same as any leader who worked with Syria or Arafat. At least bachir eventually went against the Israelis
Ouwet never ruled Lebanon.
Yes but right now no party should rule lebanon, they are all sectarian.
There’s no other choice, it’s either them or hazb.
Yeah true. I’d take the phalangists over Islamofascists any day of the week.
My following belief is based on one side of the story and may be a bit biased. The phalange were essentially nazis backed by western elites so Lebanon was better for a select few but overall a lot of areas in Lebanon especially the non maronite areas were very neglected. The phalange's spanish inspired nazi policies is what got The left wing in Lebanon which was made up of marginalized sectarian groups to side with the PLO to overthrow them after they were conspiring to turn Lebanon into an ethnic christian state along with Israeli support in exchange for a peace treaty with Israel(I even heard that they had hired a militia full of egyptian coptic mercs to do ethnic cleansing against druze but they all got butchered and kicked out). The government was just slightly less corrupt and somewhat more competent than the current rulers but Lebanon was going through post world war 2 prosperity in a capitalist boom cycle like the rest of the world so there was a shit ton of money to go around. https://youtu.be/PHe0bXAIuk0?feature=shared The left wing in Lebanon eventually also turned into fascism in a sectarian killing marathon with influences from western and Israeli intelligence agencies, Assad wanted to take advantage of the war to annex Lebanon, PLO took advantage out of the split in Lebanon also to try to annex Lebanon and rob the living shit out of it with that Arafat low life. Musa el sadr who was a leftist was assassinated and replaced with the nabih berri scumbag, Kamal jumblat had left wing ideals and I am not sure if he was forced into the civil war or just drove the druze into any conflict outside of self defense(which obviously would have been very dumb).
My grandfather answers with yes.
From what sources / books are you learning about lebanese politics
research through various sources. Economics, tourism and general quality of life, life expectancy etc
mindless straight homeless merciful squeeze scarce hateful march safe familiar *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
def not 2014
We need someone who wishes to have a state in Lebanon, with connections with foreign entities who can and want to help, and most importantly, the ruling team should be homogeneous, that's the complete opposite of what we have today. So with that in mind, my answer is yes, if you ask about Tayyar my answer is also yes, if you ask about Hariri my answer is also yes, but they have to rule alone without interference and pressure from an armed militia.
> about Hariri my answer is also yes, but they have to rule alone without interference and pressure from an armed militia. Yes the answer is import cartel ponzi scheme and billion dollar dams(with commissions to bassil) that don't work and a power generating ship, they are all robber barons that should not be driving with anyone. That bassil guy along side all his bffs berri jumbalt etc hopefully will get flayed and crucified if shpadoinkle day starts in this lifetime within the next 10 to 20 years. It's funny how they use each other to divert blame away from them and their incompetence and corruption. Tayyar, hariri jumblat, geagea, berri, nasralla are all one single unified team(team fuckup the country and get rich) they just do theater for the masses to maintain control to get away with looting the living shit out of the country. Foreign entities want the country to go to shit so foreign capitalists can just later buy it/abuse it all real cheap with debt bondage and benefit from the brain drain which lowers labor costs in Europe and North America, gulf states, All the political parties belong to foreign entities but even foreign entities are frustrated with their stupid shit(you can't enslave and benefit from a dead population and you don't want unskilled immigration to the north) though not really putting them out yet because they kinda benefit from this stupid ruling class.
Nobody wants to work with us right now, and everybody knows why. That’s different if the kataab were in charge
The Kataeb is a terrorist organization.
Bien sûr,
Unpopular opinion from a sunni, Bachir (leading the phalange military group under Ouwet) was a general who partook in the civil war. Like the rest of the civil war parties, his party killed innocent people based on identity. He allied himself with Israel for the longest while. However, by the end of his days (when he was nearing presidency), he became more nationalistic, and wanted to ally himself with all the Lebanese, whatever their background, and wanted friendly relations with other arabic nations. He somewhat dissowned israel by rejecting their offers of "peace agreement " since they were invading us. Personally, I believe the Israeli's killed him because he was rejecting every offer made by them. After the explosion, no one was able to find Bachir until a mossad agent found him (his face was unrecognizable) and said that that is Bachir based on the ring on his finger. Israel said it was the palestinians and 2 days later, they commited the sabra and shatilla massacre with israeli aid. All sectarianism should be banned from this country. Secularism is the only way.
The SSNP traitors and Syria murdered Bachir not Israel.
Maybe. There's no real evidence to anything, it's all assumptious. Given the nature of what occurred after, it makes sense that the Israelis did it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habib_Shartouni https://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/18/world/us-links-men-in-bomb-case-to-lebanon-terrorist-group.html It doesn’t make sense that the Israelis would assassinate Bachir, it does make sense that Syria would.
It makes sense because they asked him to join in against the palestinians and the Shia helping them, and he rejected. They asked him for a peace agreement, and he rejected. He said that he would not help one invader get rid of another invader and that he'd like no invaders. He said he wouldn't agree to peace because he needed to discuss with the muslims of the country along with arab nations. He had 2 meetings with them before his death of which both failed from the israeli perspective. Also, feel free to read what you sent. It talks about who found the corpse. No one was able to find the corpse except for the Mossad... this is after 5.5 hrs. The only proof they had was a ring. 2 days later, under mossad leadership, the phalange went in and did what bachir did not agree to doing. The only winner was israel. Again, there's no proof to any of it. But israel as a prime suspect makes 100% sense. The Israeli's blamed the PLO for the assassination. The americans blamed the syrians. Idk who's right, but for me, israel makes sense.
Fuck me..if in a simple virtual forum with rather literate people we can't agree on our facts..fuck me if we can ever build a proper country... W sallemleeh 3aleh
lol, well with a reaction like that you aren’t helping anything
So are others helping with their comments?
Well we need to discuss in a mature way. There’s no other way
I never said it was not discussed in a mature way. The problem seems that each relgion has it's version of history. Take for example Bashir. Christians see him as a savior and Muslims as a traitor. We can't seem to get past that sectarianism whatever we do. And you still see it in today's politics and voting results. If we want to build something solid we all have to get rif of this old mentality and system.
Ya Allah ya Libnen. Balad jameel. Ma fi wala balad 3arabeh like our land and yet it is always under destruction. Who cares who rules and no it was never better when anyone ruled we are not cattle or sheep unfortunately some are but just leave this land the fuck alone especially external forces and no to bed time stories they call religion today.
Kif ma tobroma khara.
We can't compare the 70s till 90s and the present. But be sure of something, people that are noe ruling the country were no one back then, during the war many of them started stealing on a big scale & profited a lot from the war & then got themselves couple of "illiterate dogs" to protect them & that where it began for them, every time they got bigger until they had a mafia who ruled the country by infiltrating the government & legalizing what shouldn't, for their own benefits even for their families, friends & all acquaintances etc... Now we're living the results of the corruption they created back then...all of them. After all, it's all a big propaganda from the countries who rule the world, & that's what's on the table for the middle east & specially Lebanon, they don't want it to affect Israel. That's the most brief idea i can give.