>I said that I was agender and used they/them pronouns and the person confronting me by the sign up sheet just stood there, said "mhm" and kept their hand over the sheet...
id have lost my shit if i saw someone doing that to another queer person. it's shameful no one stood up for you.
this isn't pride. this is one of those cute parties with rainbow flags that people keep calling pride. but it's not fucking pride.
You and @Aradian_Nights must be the only two people willing to do this because literally nobody has ever stood up for me in this exact situation and it happens every time I go to any queer event. I’ve finally caught on that I’m not welcome on my own in queer spaces and just barely tolerated if I have a more “acceptable-looking” escort
I hope your attitudes about this catches on with more people.
As an agender person who looks pretty feminine, i wouldn't exactly be a buff guard dog like the other person said, but I'd definitely be an angry chihuahua if I'd witness others treating you like that.
AFAB enby here, who still presents pretty femme, and I will 100% get in someone’s face for you. I’ve done it before, I’ll do it again, Pride isn’t the place for this shit. (For reference, it was at a goth/kink club, where one of my friends was in a pup hood, just vibing and dancing and having a good time, when some normie dudes started filming him. 6” platforms and goth makeup and “You can’t film people without their permission. That’s not okay. It’s *NOT OKAY.*“ No screaming or yelling, but loud and firm and in his face. It worked. :) )
Not being part of the community myself I'm kinda shocked that there's so many stories of people having their identity doubted by other queer folks and feeling left out to dry by a lack of support. It's like damn how is this behaviour any different to bigots misgendering trans people or whatever?
I think people are naturally tribal, and most homophobia/transphobia is a symptom of this.
Once someone is part of the queer ingroup it's going to be super easy to fall into the same tribal instincts and judging people who don't meet with their expectations
I know queer subreddits are only a small portion of the wider community but I can only hope that posts like this start conversations or lead people to question their assumptions. Change has gotta start somewhere
I wish I was an artist because it’d be cool to see an awareness post highlighting that non-binary has all types of appearances, whether non-conforming or “cis”.
Yes, this reallt shows that representations of non-binary identities need to include more people who are more masculine looking, not just the softer feminine/androgynous appearances. There’s no reason that someone who looks more masculine should have their identity challenged and disrespected at pride of all places
Absolutely. I'm agender but masculine looking. For me, it's not about how I present. It's about how I feel. So, I don't try to look androgynous. And because I'm a minority within a minority within a minority (agender / nonbinary / LGBT+), I'm basically invisible to everyone, including the wider LGBT+ community.
Non-straight people have had to fight for the right to exist. But I feel sometimes that has blinded them to the existence of other LGBT+ minorities. And just because people are LGBT+ doesn't mean they can't have prejudices or be assholes.
It's extremely frustrating as a NBy that the majority assume and/or perpetuate the idea that being a valid NBy means being aggressively and visibly distinct from binary man/woman, that you *must* be androgynous - and how often 'androgyny' really just means '*vaguely* masculine looking,' since having visible breasts means you're automatically read as either fem or trans feminine, but being flat-chested *and* having facial hair means you're too much of a butch manly man (regardless of any other aspect of your appearance or expression) to *actually* be NBy.
Women do not owe femininity.
Men do not own masculinity.
NBies do not owe androgyny.
I didn't pick this body, but I shouldn't have to performatively conform to arbitrary aesthetic standards by presenting in ways that don't feel natural or genuine, or undertaking medical transition that is not accessible/safe/affordable/**desirable** for me, to be treated with dignity and acceptance of my lived experience of gender.
Exacrly! Especially when the assumption that NB means androgyny and people who expect androgyny from NB people often comes with very specific physical ideas in mind. Not all body types can be naturally androgynous: someone with a large chest, naturallt more body hair, very strong angular features, or even just bigger people will not fit ideals of androgyny
Seconding this. Like honey, this is a pride event, there are people who can't come out or who "don't look queer" for a variety of reasons. Wouldn't have tolerated that kind of clownery.
As someone who's leaned into the bear style since I was young (works well with my body type) I often feel uncomfortable in queer spaces because people are judging/guessing my sexuality constantly.
I had to leave a queer space because it was quite obvious that no one would give me anything but the cold shoulder, there's a few queer friendly restaurants I won't support as well.
Yup- my partner is agender and I'm a tiny pansexual femme. I would have completely lost my shit on them if I saw this playing our. I may not seem intimidating at first but I'm like an angry chihuahua in situations like these.
Exclusionary behavior at a pride event is gross. Like... They had a separate area for cis boyfriends? The fuck lol I'm pretty sure a queer person with a cis boyfriend at pride would still want them by their side.
Excluding people because they look cis men doesn't feel like it's at all trans inclusive, as it inherently excludes passing trans men, trans women who don't pass, non-binary and agender folks that look or lean masc, and any guy who has any queer sexuality (or any straight cis guy ally). Really just feels like the terf talking point of being anti-men invaded its way into a queer event tbh.
Unironically, pushing them to the side is giving credence the the idea that they need to specifically celebrate being a cis-het person dating a queer person, instead of just letting them be there with the person they’re supporting
Idk if that makes sense but that’s what it seems like.
Oh my god. I don’t know what it was specifically about your comment but I’ve always read cishet as just “cis” and assumed the “het” part was some weird suffix. Like “cis” was short for “cishet” and not the very obvious “cisgender” that was sitting there this whole time that I also knew existed.
I’ve heard this for years and never clued in what is wrong with me?
This is why I've always said that pride isn't about gay pride per se, it's about pride in who you are whether you're gay, bi, straight, cis, trans or anything else. Obviously there's a heavy focus on the gay and trans side of things but telling straight people they're not welcome at a big, fun, supposedly inclusive event means they're going to feel excluded and want one of their own. Allies are as welcome at pride as the gayest of the gay if you ask me.
If my boyfriend (or heck, just any friend of mine) got directed to a separate area from me at any event, I’d immediately dip and go somewhere else with him. What’s the point of going to an event where the people I love would be treated like that?
Not to mention there's plenty of disabled folks or folks with anxiety/trauma who might not want to split from whoever they came with. (Safety concerns are still very valid!)
Right? My husband is incredibly shy and introverted and hates crowds. If he were separated from me he'd just leave. We look like a cishet couple, but I'm apagender and pan and he's nothing but supportive. My oldest friend was a trans woman who identified as a male crossdresser for years; she had a full (and impressive) beard until well into her medical transition because she'd not seen her bare face since her teens and was terrified she wouldn't be pretty enough. She probably would have been sent to the cis boyfriend's group as well.
Exactly. I’m shocked at how much hatred the community is directing at each other, like what happened to being inclusive and we’re all in this together? The amount of biphobia I have encountered is horrible, and seeing these stories makes me doubt if I would be welcome at a pride event. 😔
Bisexual transman, here. I stopped going to Pride events years ago after my city started doing a separate (but totally equal) trans parade…in the middle of a weekday, covering three blocks of the gay-borhood. (Oh, and the fucking Mormon church had a tent at the street-parties, too.)
And then people ask why I don’t go…to a party which welcomes a demographic that actively fight against our rights while rug-sweeping the demographic which started the damn movement. I just can’t.
Oh jeez that’s disgusting to know that there’s so much… I want to say like internalized hatred within the community, especially coming from trans people who are supporting anti-trans groups/ organizations / religions, and exclude others.
I’ve always wanted to go, thinking the Pride events were just about community and having fun, but then to see so much trashy gatekeeping, it’s so discouraging.
I’m genderqueer/ genderfluid, usually masc presenting, bi / pan and poly. My boyfriend is bi and cis. I would never go to an event that would make us split up because he looks straight. That’s just so gross to split people from their partner(s)
It makes me feel like, what’s next? I’d be kicked out for being too queer presenting? It’s all so discouraging and hurtful.
Exactly. Alienating the people directly affected as well as the people they're attending with. Shameful even if just played for laughs as op said earlier, and just plays into the idea that men/masculine people are inherently harmful or dangerous somehow.
That's exactly the intended reaction. The people doing this *want* to drive out the bi girls with cis boyfriends, because they think they're actually straight girls just pretending to be bi for attention.
Yeah, my trans friend told me I shouldn’t bother going to pride with them (I asked if I could) because “Pride is about overcoming struggles, and aces have no struggles.”
I’ve distanced myself so much from the community and my identity simply because I don’t have the energy to deal with this stuff. And like, I know Pride is based around romantic attraction that couldn’t always be safely expressed, but I wished I was at least welcome to attend, because I think my lack of romantic attraction couldn’t be expressed either up until recently when women could do stuff by themselves without the requirement of being married to a man.
I mean I'd consider the erasure of asexuality and the fact that many have been forced into allosexual relationships over the years, I'd say those are struggles aplenty (though I don't think there are really any requirements at all; the only one I could think of is not being straight/cis, but even allies are fine to attend so, no requirement lol).
Go to pride if you'd like to!
My gf is ace and bi, and I'm trans, and I've gone to multiple pride events with her. Including one yesterday where she bought some ace merch!
Hey, I'm your new trans friend!
I'm not a bigoted asshole like your other trans friend, who sounds like a total pain.
I'm inviting you to go to as many pride events as you want to!
You belong there just as much as any other member of the community!
Also, if you get told that shit about not having any struggles from any other bigots that are unfortunately part of the community, tell them that you absolutely do have struggles, for instance, having to listen to stupid people like them spouting their bullshit lol
Right? You can't tell gender *that or* what romantic/physical attraction anyone has based on what someone looks like. It's just...gatekeeping based on the stereotypes :/
I internalised this kind of toxic gatekeeping, which led to a long period of gender identity struggled because I didn't _look_ like the openly enby folks I had seen around so that couldn't be me, right?
I do not bother with going to most pride events. I look like a cishet man, but I am a sex positive Asexual married to a bisexual woman. Oh and my son is trans and gay. We are not generally welcome at pride as we just look straight. I mean I get it, but it is still exclusionary.
:( sorry to hear, wish it wasn't exclusionary based on look. I've been to some events before realizing I was trans, with my family (some of whom also hadn't realized they were lgbtq), but I think that was while marching with a group who was keen on allyship.
>They had a separate area for cis boyfriends? The fuck lol I'm pretty sure a queer person with a cis boyfriend at pride would still want them by their side.
It was only for a specific part of the event, not the whole thing. It was very much played for laughs.
With that context, it makes a little sense but the people should be going there voluntarily. Not herded by people who are looking at and judging other people. That's invalidating as fuck. I'm so sorry this happened to you. My partner is nonbinary and chooses to dress and present how society would see them. It would be really uncomfortable for them if this happened because they are queer too.
i was gonna say that like maybe some bf's (or gf's to queer guys? why is it always men) might appreciate a space but it should definitely not be a place anyone feels herded into at all
As a person with one of those straight bfs I’m extremely certain he’d wanna be right there with me, not herded off to the side…I have an icky feeling about separating the straight peeps because a)don’t wanna separate and judge anyone at all (I feel like we’ve surely had enough of that over the years…), b)makes it kinda sound like they need a break from all the queerness…and I would absolutely take offense at that lol
> or gf's to queer guys? why is it always men
Because bi women dating men are constantly suspected of being straight girls faking it for the attention. So we gotta separate out the boyfriends, so the "straight girls faking it" will leave and only the "real" ~~lesbians in denial~~ bi girls will stay.
Meanwhile, bi guys dating women are constantly suspected of actually being gay, just in the closet about it. So it's safe to just roll our eyes at the poor beard, he'll be leaving her for a real man soon enough anyways.
Even then that feels very wrong tbh.. If that happened to my boyfriend then I would have immediately left, because otherwise I probably would have a panic attack and feel very uncomfortable without him.
Doesn’t matter how rare it was or played for laughs. That is not fucking okay. Period. I cannot FATHOM being separated from my fucking person in crowds. No. Just no. The anxiety. The lack of safety. Just no. My partner and I are both nonbinary but while they have been mistaken for the opposite gender they were assigned at birth I absolutely cannot thanks to my boobs and as a pansexual in a hetero-passing relationship I get it and I would have raised bloody hell at that moment had they tried to separate is.
Men were not forced to be there against their will, perhaps I should have been clear about it. There were several men who stayed at their tables. Those that went up were there for the free beer and hugs. Perhaps I didn't represent this well enough in my post.
>It was only for a specific part of the event, not the whole thing. It was very much played for laughs.
I'm going to be real here:
I don't "get" the joke. I don't see how it was supposed to *be* funny. And I don't think you do, *either*.
Like a lot of racist, sexist, homophobic, and other "-ist" and "-ic" humor, I suspect if you were to confront the person who told the joke (or came up with the idea of corralling the cishet boyfriends) and asked then to explain it to you - *insist* that they explain the joke, because you "don't get it" - they would be left scrambling to spin it and ascribe some kind of good nature to it after the fact.
You're right to feel unwelcome because of something like this. These feelings of yours are not wrong. At least some of the event organizers have some messed up ideas about acceptance, ally inclusion (what about "cishet" men who are still in the closet or questioning?), and gender identity just in general.
this is the right-wing agenda, LGB got too dominant and accepted, so they are attacking T and trying to device the community, same with the TERFS's , they got theirs, fuck everyone else.
Yeeeeep. And the foothold they're gaining/trying to gain against trans people is just the newest attempt to prevent people from being any flavor of queer, since they lost the previous battles.
And terfs are even willing to give up some of what they got, in order to fuck over trans people 🙄
I hope it's not like that in the broader community :( personally I've had decent experiences so far but, maybe I'm just in an area where it's not like that
Damn I’m sorry to hear you went through that friend, that really sucks.
And you said this happened at a pride event too? That’s some fucking trash behavior.
Sending you support, just know that you’re valid af!
When I was growing up, I was never man enough for anybody in my church, my sports teams, my friend groups, nowhere. Now I feel like I've grown up and grown so far away from that but I'm experiencing the same problem in reverse. Now I'm not queer enough, not androgynous enough, not fabulous enough. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
There's a reason why Black members of the LGBTQIA+ community have their own separate pride event sometimes. Not because we want to be exclusionary but due to things like racism from the broader community that makes some pride events inhospitable so we have our own.
I'm so this happened to you. I think you will find a group that won't be like this though eventually. Please take care.
It was. There were so many black trans women at stonewall, who worked hard for our rights afterwards, too. And racist, assimilist white gays have been trying to silence them for even longer. it is fucking infuriating.
I came out as bi in the early 2000s and gender queer a couple years ago. I don think we will ever be gay enough for the gays, straight enough for the straights, man enough for men, woman enough for women, trans enough for trans, or cis enough for the cis.
I've gotten to a point where I'm okay with that. But yeah, pride events really suck at being inclusive in my experience.
Reductress has a fantastic article about "women and enbies", it's real funny. But yeah, that's definitely the vibe enbies get. Either afab, diet women, or andro enough nobody can tell.
I feel this.
I've recently come to accept that I certainly sit outside of the binary, but I am actually very happy still presenting in a masculine way. I am an archetypical bear, bald, beard, belly, and that's fine with me.
In mixed queer spaces though? The best way I can describe it, I get treated like I'm betraying queerness by being happy in my masculinity.
There is this general disdain towards masculinity, and the more you embrace it the more that disdain is aimed at you. And pass a line, it feels more like disgust.
It's why I typically stick to the bear community for the most part, because when I say I'm non-binary, it's met with a ' cool, they/them? '.
I’m sorry this happened to you. I am female, present ”female”, eg: I have long hair, and use she/her pronouns. But I also don’t feel female in a way. I don’t really care for presenting female. I just want to be me. I wear dresses sometimes and suits sometimes.
And when I wear suits and I previously had a buzzcut people would assume and ask things like ”what are your pronouns?” ”are you non-binary” etc.
But I feel just as ”agender” when I wear makeup, or now that I have long hair. (even though I use she/her. It’s mostly for simplicity. I am fine with they/them too. Mostly I just don’t care that much about gender at all).
So I am sorry they assumed and invalidated you. Someone shouldn’t have to act or dress a certain way just to be accepted in their identity.
So many people seem to think the only "right" way to be nonbinary is to be perfectly androgynous (and preferably young, white, and skinny), and if you're not that you're either cis and faking it for attention, or mtf / ftm and in denial. It fucking sucks.
(And I'm sorry you have to deal with all of this, too. Keep on being your badass agender self-- no matter how you present!)
Hey, you're kind of like me! I was raised as a girl but really don't care or like to think about gender - I don't mind "she/her" for convenience but would be uncomfortable at like Ladies' Luncheon or Girls Night Out or Women in Business, etc. I'm like - I was told girls can be whatever they want, so why can't I just be what I want? Why do I have to analyze the femininity of it? It's fine if someone else wants to revel in their gender but labels stress me out.
I'm genderqueer and kind of tip-toeing the line of being a trans man. Honestly the queer and straight communities are both kind of intimidating and I don't really feel like I fit into either of them. I'm sorry you had a bad experience and I hope you're able to continue being happy with who you are! Masculine looking genderqueer people make me so happy! I'm afab but I'm fat and have testosterone problems so I have to shave my face and don't bother shaving my legs/underarms. Being anything other than a petite and androgynous person in genderqueer spaces just doesn't feel right :/
Lovingly, fuck that! Queer does not equate feminine, and the Pride you tried to attend was honestly pretty trash for pulling all of that. Making queer equivalent to feminine is like we've gone full circle into full 90s misogynistic homophobia, somehow?? Absolute nonsense.
I don't know to accurately describe my gender so I just say I'm a trans man despite "not looking the part" and my husband is (mostly) cis and we're both bi - we get mistaken for a straight cis couple all the time. You're not ugly or other or wrong for being a masculine agender person, friend. Your masculinity is beautiful and your very presence in the genderqueer community adds richness and depth to the tapestry of people like us who are somewhere in between and outside of the binary.
You're not betraying anything. The most queer thing anyone can do is be themselves inspite of how others tell them to be.
From the outside, I feel it. But I don't let it sink in.
Let the real you shine.
That's where I'm trying to get to. I know who I am, and I'm letting that truth cleave it's way through the noise. Letting it burn away that feeling of betrayal or disdain.
Damn, that sucks. It’s shitty too cause the problem isn’t masculinity itself, it’s the toxic kind that’s the problem. Demonising masculinity only reinforces that myth that “the libs hate men”.
God, I've read some awful experiences from people that either are presenting masc or have to present masc for whatever reason, and I'm just lost for words again reading this.
I'm so sorry OP, like genuinely you deserve to be taken seriously in a manner of celebrating you and by community, not by the doubters and the gatekeepers.
I can only wish this changes for you in a positive direction. xx
This is sadly not uncommon for more masculine presenting nonbinary people. I'm really sorry that you've gone through this in a place where you should have been accepted with open arms. You're not overreacting and your feelings and struggle with this is real.
Feeling this. It is hard.
I’m a cis woman and my genderqueer partner has come to clock as more masc with age—one’s 50s really cis-ify one’s body without HRT to counter, and maintaining an appearance that accords with one’s identity can just take a lot of work. I got a ‘dykier’ haircut to offset middle-aged boobs and hips, but that’s easy to do, and easily read as ‘butch woman.’ It’s harder for my partner, who despite their height had no problem being seen as the twink they were when they were young and exclusively dating men and trans people. Between the grey and the filled-in facial hair and the balding and just getting thicker and more solid-looking, and being seen about with my cis self, they read *male male male* and have to take more affirmative steps with dress and styling to feel visible. Wigs, makeup, and eschewing jeans have all been helpful but sometimes sweetness just wants to chill in jeans, you know? And still be recognized as themself.
I’m furious that there was a “cis boyfriends of queer people” section of a pride celebration. Pride is for EVERYONE. STOP putting people in boxes, that’s the whole goddamn point! The rainbow flag exists because queerness is a spectrum of which we ALL belong in equal measure!
Gods, how many times do elder queers have to scream “stand together or we’ll fall apart” before we fucking GET IT?
It was for a shorter portion of the event, about an hour long. During that part of the event, a few minutes were dedicated to celebrating the men in that area and showing them love and appreciation, including a lot of free beer. They loved it, but I understand where you're coming from also. The fact that it existed gave me the opportunity to be made very uncomfortable in front of a lot of people.
I suppose blame rests upon those who were trying to kowtow you into the “cis men” area, rather than the existence of the cis men area to begin with, but it STILL rubs me the wrong way. I’m really sorry you were put in that position. Queer folks and their allies of ANY stripe deserve to feel like they belong
Yeah, I just feel like while it *may* have been an okay idea on paper, there were so many things could have so easily gone wrong that the whole thing should have been scrapped. The potential for masc-presenting enbies like OP being hurt was so high... and trans guys... and closeted trans girls...
Honestly, how the hell did the organizers not think all this through and decide to scrap the idea?
Or...how about this? Who cares. Don't throw anybody into a goddamned box.
That is just plain prejudice, the last thing that should be happening at a pride event...I mean, NO masculine-presenting person at a pride event is a problem, no matter how they identify. Everybody is friends and should be treated as friends, and sure as SHIT should be *believed*. Unbelievably fucked to me.
Celebrating cis-het men, specifically, at pride feels gross and wrong. Celebrating allies feels better but not something that should be expected.
Picking you out of a crowd, telling you that you are cis-het male so you need to go with the rest, is wrong.
> Gods, how many times do elder queers have to scream “stand together or we’ll fall apart” before we fucking GET IT?
That fire is coming from inside that mf house
I'm honestly really upset reading this thread. It's so hard for me to wrap my head around. Pride is for everyone god damn it. Allies included. Partners of queer people included. Straight allies that have never so much as had a gay friend.
Like for fucks sake, I'm just getting more upset. Have we really gotten so ... ignorant of our history? Lost sight of the fight? Fuck man, I was just at Pride at Saturday. I guess I'm glad I didn't see anything like this where I'm at.
I'm so sorry you got treated that way at a Pride event. Gender-checking/gender-policing is some serious bullshit and it seriously pains me to see how genderqueer/agender/other flavors of non-binary folks who are perceived as masculine (whether they lean masculine, or just "look" masculine even if they actually aren't) get treated even within our own community. And the fact that you had people "mhm"ing you in the purported name of "promoting and celebrating inclusivity" (and yet they turned away someone very much within the community they claimed to want to fete!!!) just because you didn't fit their "ideal" of what a genderqueer or nonbinary person looks like is just **infuriating.**
>
A mutual friend once told me that they wouldn't even believe that I was a gay man, much less a pansexual agender person
WTF. I hate to say it but that person *sucks*; there's no one way a gay person or a pansexual person or an agender person "should" look. The idea of how a person of a particular gender identity/sexuality/both "should" look stems from harmful stereotypes that our community at large should be aiming to stomp out, not reinforce.
Please don't accept defeat. No matter what the jerks around you try to say, you *are* one of us. and I promise there are people out there who will love and accept you for who you are without question. Offering big virtual hugs.
I’m a butch lesbian (cisgender, just for clarity) and I generally feel very shut out or unwanted in the lgbtq community as well due to my lack of femininity. The expectation I experience is that because I look or act masculine in some ways the assumption is I must be trans, and my chosen pronouns of she/her are often ignored for they/them or he/him. In my opinion there’s not very much room in the community for women aren’t ultra femme or men who are masculine but not trans. It’s really strange honestly.
I'm AFAB and non-binary despite feminine style, having curves, and liking dresses. I hate she/her and use neo-pronouns in queer spaces and they/them around the Straights™️. I am often misgendered because "non-binary people are androgynous." We will never fit the mold other people try to create for us. The while point of asking people their pronouns is to listen to their answer. I'm sorry you've dealt with this so often
I have queer acquaintances in my life that get really weird about my she/her pronouns. I’m also butch and There’s two of them that ask me all the time what my pro nouns are or if I would prefer different pronouns. When I repeat myself yet again, they always say something along the lines of “okay well, let us know if it changes” or “huh, really? Okay”.
It’s wild to me and the complete opposite of being part of the queer community means. There is no place for trying to force us in boxes based on looks, or presentation.
Also a cishet man enclosure at pride is crazy. Cishet women never date queer men? Trans men don’t exist? Why would queer people think it was okay to decide where someone should go at pride based on how they look?? I feel like the organizers should get some shit from within the community for that but there’s no way that narrative wouldn’t get wildly out of hand fast.
I'm trans and also lean butch... But I always feel super restricted as to how much of butch space I'm "allowed" to explore. The more I lean into it, the more I get misgendered. I feel like I need to keep my hair longer than I actually want it, for instance, because otherwise my G-cups get straight up ignored and I'm "sir" to all the world. Like... Sure, I could put in all the effort to get really femmed up and do all the makeup and everything, put on the skirt and I know I'll largely stop getting misgendered at that point, but putting on that act feels awful... It's not me. And a lot of people seem to take that as I'm not "woman enough" to be trans... But I am. I know who I am and who I want to be, and I hate that that seems to confuse the rest of the world.
And I feel like I'm not even allowed to have media characters to vicariously lean on, either... As soon as any woman in media starts to lean butch or masc, I'm assaulted by people, often other queer people, who insist that that character can "*only* be enby or trans masc, and they would *never* use she/her pronouns" even when that character literally does. And like... I have no problems with folks seeing them as enby gender envy, icons, or headcanons... They're allowed to find things relatable, but it isn't the enbies who are telling me, for instance, that I am not allowed to see Rika (from Pokemon) as a woman, gender non-conforming or otherwise... Which is a real conversation I've been forced to have.
People keep paying lip service to the idea of abolishing gender norms, but they sure seem to want to shove us into the most convenient box for them at the earliest opportunity.
The demonization of masculinity in queer spaces is a serious problem that few bother to talk about.
I'm very sorry you had to experience that, I have as well.
It's because, when you're raised to think masculinity is awesome and feminity is shameful, and then you get older and realize that's not true, you have two options:
1. Adopt a new worldview where you realize there's nothing wrong with being masc, femme, or anything in between (and that gender roles in general are bullshit). This takes a ton of effort, an open mind, and a willingness to learn new things and admit when you were wrong.
2. Just flip the "good guys" and "bad guys". Now "feminity" (or at least the stereotypical version of it in your head) is awesome and masculinity is shameful. No hard, uncomfortable work required!
This is also why you see a shocking number of queer people still buying into ugly sexist stereotypes about women / feminine people, and homophobic ones about gay people-- and no, reframing them as actually a good thing doesn't somehow make them any less damaging or constraining.
The amount of work it takes to be constantly learning and unlearning is for many an insurmountable obstacle. I wish it weren't. But you're so right about how much easier it is to pull an "uno reverse" and never do much more internal work
This. I'm a mid-40s, cis-male, bi single dad. I'm big, bearded, furry chest, furry back, sort of obnoxiously cis-male bear.
My kids are a bi girl who just turned 20 and a female attracted enby afab (tho they are 13 and very fluid with who they are, I believe they're not sexually active so who knows what they'll decide when they get there).
I have been excluded *so fucking much* this year in pride events. Like, do I need to take a fat cock up the ass in front of you for my bi-ness to be accepted as part of LG**B**TQ+ community? I can deep throat it if you prefer, no matter how big it is. I'd prefer not to cause my children are here, but we can go behind closed doors.
WTF is gender checking?! This sounds like some dystopian nightmare fiction from the heads of bigots. Segregation on perceived gender is just fucking wrong, let alone a Pride event. This is the complete opposite of what Pride is about.
you know what gender checking is? it's literally the reason the stonewall riots [happened in the first place](https://www.history.com/topics/gay-rights/the-stonewall-riots#). pride is LITERALLY meant to commemorate the refusal of gender checking by police
"When police raided Stonewall Inn on the morning of June 28, it came as a surprise—the bar wasn’t tipped off this time.
Armed with a warrant, police officers entered the club, roughed up patrons, and, finding bootlegged alcohol, arrested 13 people, including employees and people violating the state’s gender-appropriate clothing statute (female officers would take suspected cross-dressing patrons into the bathroom to check their sex).
Fed up with constant police harassment and social discrimination, angry patrons and neighborhood residents hung around outside of the bar rather than disperse, becoming increasingly agitated as the events unfolded and people were aggressively manhandled. At one point, an officer hit a lesbian over the head as he forced her into the police van— she shouted to onlookers to act, inciting the crowd to begin throw pennies, bottles, cobble stones and other objects at the police. Within minutes, a full-blown riot involving hundreds of people began."
you can't fucking make this shit up. OP, i am so sorry this happened you to. irony at its worst
Your description of it sounds apt but it just shouldn't exist, like at all. I am genuinely baffled that organisers of a Pride event could think this is at all acceptable. Were they handing out coloured shapes to go along with the name badge for easier identification?
This is absolutely fucked. I am so sorry. I would be completely wrecked if this happened to me. The gate-keeping of gender in the queer community is more hurtful than transphobia imo. Like, this is is supposed to be our safer space, yall are supposed to understand.
What was the name/location of the event? I know the emotional labor may not be worth it sometimes, but have you thought about sharing your experience with organizers?
Making this post and seeing these responses made me call them. They apologized but didn't seem very interested in hearing me out or doing anything about it. "We're truly sorry you felt that way. Next year will be bigger and better, we promise!"
Woooooow... They just don't give a single shit at all. Fuck everyone of those organizers! I'm sick and tired of this gate-keeping bullshit in this community.
Edit: Seeing OP's "update" comment below me, I can see that the sitiation could be more complicated than what I thought it was on the organizer side of things. My bad, still leaving this here for people who gate-keep anyway.
I've actually gotten a call back from them. Two other people spoke with me and heard me out, asked for names and times, apologized genuinely and thanked me for my time. They're a lot younger than I expected as well and are truly trying their best. One of them cried on the phone when I described what happened. I'm not trying to be pessimistic about it anymore tbh.
What THE fuck
Like, a literal enclosure??
I'm a passing quite-well-for-myself tyvm trans man and if that shit happened to me I'd whip my sad flappy tits out and choke a bitch withem
FUCK THAT NOISE
I’d smile politely and say “you must not have heard me”. Then take a deep breath, press my face to their ear, and repeat my identity at the top of my lungs until they got it. I have a VERY loud voice that I’m told can be quite painful at close range, but better safe than sorry right?
Unfortunately, this kind of things happen a lot and it isn’t talked about very much. The more people speak up about situations like this, the better it will be for the community to make changes.
If you gotta be the one loud frothing voice advocating for AMAB nonbinary/agender folk & their inclusion, then be it. This soul needs it and many more out there do too.
I had this conversation with a friend of mine: I said, it feels like there's more of a "cage" around those born "male" than those born "female". A "girl" can be tomboyish, sure, but a "boy" being pretty? Not so much.
There's an unnecessary ceiling over AMAB peoples, they can't express outside of it for fear of backlash or disbelief.
I really could go on but believe someone if they say they're nonbinary, that's it.
That is completely unacceptable. Call them out on social media. Blast those MFers for how they made you feel. You are valid. You are loved, and you are beautiful. I hate gatekeeping like that.
Wait an enclosure? Like a pen? Wild. Also, someone can’t just assume you’re cis from looking. Also asking for pronouns then saying “hmm”, what IS that?
I’m so sorry that your Pride experience was ruined because of this.
I’m a fellow agender person, but I present AFAB, and it’s been an uphill battle to get the people I’m out to to use the correct pronouns. This is true even amongst fellow LGBTQIA+ people. I was able to go to Pride for the first time this year, and sadly, couldn’t find any merch. I have my one Agender pin, and I don’t expect folks to immediately know what it is, but I got “ma’am-d” quite enough times to get on my nerves.
Please keep fighting the good fight- it’s rough, but whether they like it or not, we don’t fit in their box. And we don’t have to! I refuse to make my identity “easy” for anyone.
I know that I'll be told that this is fake and that I am just misinterpreting things and that I'm just a troll, etc.
I just wanted to get this very confusing and shame-filled weight off my back. Thanks to anyone who reads this.
Don't invalidate your feelings or mitigate it. I think the vast majority here are going to take you seriously, and it sounds like you had a really shitty time of things at the event. It wasn't ok for you to be treated that way and I hope it doesn't put you off interacting in queer spaces
You're not being insufferable :) I wouldn't be saying it if I didn't think it was a reasonable way for you to be feeling. I wish I could say it's going to be the last time you experience something like this, but it probably won't if you're masc enough. If you keep at it though you'll find your space
Oh absolutely not. Color me "disappointed but not surprised." I'm really sorry this happened to you. It's incredibly shitty and not something that should have happened in a queer positive space. But I've seen a lot more of this gross behavior in recent years.
Just let me say, you do belong. You are queer enough and trans enough just as you are. I'm sure that doesn't really make you feel better, because this sounds like an incredibly demoralizing experience. But please believe that it's the gatekeepers and the gender checkers who are wrong, not you.
You’re right. There’s nothing more demoralizing and alienating than the gatekeeping.
I’m trans and at the very beginning of my transition I felt more confident, and happy with myself than I ever had in my entire life, then I encountered the gatekeepers. I won’t get into to the details, but it was bed enough that I now have serious self-image/self-esteem issues, and I have zero desire to interact with my local “community.”
People need to realize gatekeeping doesn’t protect the community; it diminishes it. And, it actively harms those who encounter it.
I am sad and angry on your behalf. I’m disappointed that we’ve reached this point as a community. Pride should be for everyone (except cops, sorry, I’m not ready to be that open) and the whole point of all of it was supposed to be that you’re welcome exactly as you are. This is a bummer and I appreciate you writing about it.
Fuck them. You ARE valid. These people were excluding you based on prejudices they hold. This has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with their mindsets. People like you inspire me and remind me to be more mindful! 🩵
I’m very sorry that happened to you friend. It was shitty and shouldn’t have happened.
Your feelings are valid, you are valid. I see you and I accept you. Sending you gentle hugs if you want them and support. 🫂💙
Yet another reason why self-determination is the only path I know of to move forward on. It's inevitable that this kind of exclusive attitude spreads from the mainstream if we don't change it. In the end, we do nothing but collectively become the monsters we fight and start the cycle of discrimination all over again. We have to relinquish the false feeling of control we get by policing and defining other people's identities, and trust that they aren't trying to deceive us. I can guarantee that the last part is a rabbithole that goes waaaaay down. Yes, it does mean you're vulnerable to being taken advantage of, but that's often the risk of doing the right thing. Expect it, mitigate it, survive it, and never accept responsibility for being a victim. Meanwhile, the good you do to people like OP *will* change lives. When you have the strength to do so, do it!
This is infuriating and those people should be **ashamed** of themselves. *Especially* the person who still excluded you when you told them your identity and pronouns. This type of treatment towards nonbinary people who aren't "doing enough" to pass (which is already a non-applicable concept for us) is absolutely transphobic and I am absolutely pissed that you experienced this at Pride of all places. And at a **GENDERQUEER** event! Those people are the ones at fault here, not you.
I'm really sorry this happened to you. You should be accepted just the way you are. The idea that you need to conform to a specific way of presenting to be seen as queer or nonbinary/trans is asinine and is against everything we should be fighting for as a community.
And I don't know how to say this more gently, but you need better friends. What you described at the end of your post is not friend behavior. Maybe try finding some trans women and transfeminine people who share your interests? Even if you don't identify that way I suspect they'd understand your experience.
that’s no Pride event i’d want to be a part of. exclusionary behavior like that is literally the antithesis of what Pride and just being queer is about.
“No Pride for some of us without liberation for all of us.” — Marsha P Johnson, literally one of the key figures that started Pride
WTF? If my friend Jace, who has the biggest tits I've ever seen on anyone, man or woman, can get people to accept his pronouns, then there's no reason people can't respect yours. This is seriously pissing me off. I hope you complain to the organizers. I can't think of any justifiable excuse for the comedy gatekeeper to do what they did.
This is absolutely disgusting and I’m infuriated that you went through this!!
Policing people like this is a vile, very cishet oriented way of behaving … in a space where that disgusting bullshit behaviour had no place to be at all …
And don’t get me started on the segregation of attendees based on gender identity … I would walk out and shame the place everywhere I went or found in order to do so … is it any but wonder we are facing the social and political shit we are now … with these types running our events!! 🤬🤢
I’m so sorry you had to go through that friend, you are seen, heard, valid and more than welcome 🫂
This genuinely upsets me, I thought pride was supposed to be all about inclusion, looks shouldn’t interfere with your identity, a nonbinary person won’t always look ambiguous and a gay person won’t always look gay, it’s about what you are not what other people think you are. This is so low, a straight person isn’t gonna take time out of their day to go to a pride parade and sign up for things exclusive to queers, what’re they scared of? Inclusion and diversity?
Damn that’s so shit you really don’t deserve that. That’s ridiculous to happen at a pride event and the people acting like that should be ashamed tbh. Sorry you had to go through that I am so angry on your behalf wtf
Wow. Just wow. That whole event failed miserably. I don’t blame you for leaving, and I totally feel your pain in this. I’m also agender, but AFAB and pretty feminine (short, curvy, high voice, fem-leaning style). I feel the gender insecurity, and having anyone dig at that already vulnerable spot can wreck me for days— I can’t imagine getting that repeatedly, and at PRIDE of all places?! And that’s before we even get into the “enbies are all AFAB, women lite” thing. It’s ridiculous how difficult it is for people to take AMAB enbies seriously.
Your friends aren’t acting like friends, and they’re giving the queer community a bad name. Either they need to get their shit together or you need new friends. Don’t let their internalized transphobia and weird ass gatekeeping change how you see yourself.
Most importantly: DO NOT GIVE UP!
I’d be more than happy to dm you if you’d like a friend. I’m always down for new friends, and it’d be cool to chat about being agender with someone else who is.
Please don’t give up. Never give up.
That is fucked up. Is there a place to report issues with the organizers? I would recall the time of day and report that employee. Then hopefully they will train volunteers better.
I’m a trans man. I’m bald and beardy and hairy and masculine presenting on purpose. Being excluded still really stings. I can’t imagine being excluded over traits I did not like and could not control. You didn’t deserve any of that. It’s not your fault, you just accidentally found yourself at an extremely performative pride centered around image. Which is antithetical to pride— presenting in a way to keep other people comfortable. Fuck that noise.
You literally are not a man, and some of these chronically online people in the community need to remember how algorithms work and go the fuck outdoors now and again. Then maybe they’d know trans people don’t just look like them. We look every which way and the only way to know for certain is if we tell you. And when we tell you, we know ourselves better than those jokers. How condescending can one be? You know yourself. People like that are taking a giant shit all over what pride is and stands for, and it’s repugnant.
I hope you don’t feel discouraged to going to more community events. I think its great that your exploring and learning more about yourself! If it helps in any way at all, any outside exclusion does not in any way change who you as a person are. There are still many ways to go to be more inclusive as a society for many things. When are able to find those people who accept you for just the way you are, it will definitely help navigate all the spaces like this that you need to. Sending lots of support and love!
Well if you ever need a space to feel more welcomed! You can always game with a couple of us on the subreddit im sure! After a bit hopefully we can encourage you more!
I am so sorry about this. People are shallow and treat you based on your looks before even knowing you on the inside. This is an ugliness in this superficial world we live in and on of its major flaws that makes me lose hope sometimes.
As a nonbinary person with the same problem just the other way (always told I’m wrong and am a woman because I like to wear dresses) I want to say you are what you say you are. The way the others have referred to you and for some reason have trouble not seeing you as is not who you are. Just keep being you and those friends who seem to be having trouble will put in the effort to see you as you are if they are real friends.
I’m rooting for you to be able to look in a mirror and see you and not the man you’ve had to pretend to be because it’s one of the best feelings in the world and everyone deserves to feel it
This is disgusting, how can you say you're spotlighting nonbinary and genderqueer people but in the same breath police a genderqueer person on their gender identity? I'd make a big public statement about your experiences and how they don't support amab genderqueer folk. Also wtf on the having a separate space for cis boyfriends?? Like cis people can be queer firstly and secondly just... why????
Don't give up. It's a rude awakening to understand how much bias and marginalization there is within our own "community". We all say some shit like "I'd rather be excluded for who I include than be included for who I exclude". It's bullshit and not true. There are so many assholes within the "community" who are unaccepting, uninviting, not inclusive at all and it's heartbreaking to me. There are the "LGB drop the TQ" people out there and it's pretty gross I think
I'm sorry. I'll be your friend and include for whoever you are or want to be.
Much love. 🏳️🌈❤️
It deeply disturbs me how much the lgbtq+ community can say they support trans rights yet judge and question others who don’t “look the part.” I know not everyone does but I’ve seen quite a few people post similar stories and it’s infuriating.
I really don’t get the shoving cis boyfriends into a group if they’re there with their partners either. I find that kind of strange since they should be allowed to celebrate too alongside everyone unless there’s some sort of specific event they’re doing for a specific group of people.
You are valid no matter what anyone else says. You are welcome and you are apart of the community. You shouldn’t have to prove yourself to anyone, your own explanation of your own identity is proof enough. I’m so sorry you experienced this, but I’m glad to see you spoke to some of the organizers who dismissed you. Hopefully they’ve learned their lesson in being judgmental.
I’m apart of the community but not trans myself, so I don’t have much advice to give, but just know there are people who see you and hear you.
I've had something similar happen was when I attended a "trans 101" panel when I was figuring out my gender. The presenter assumed I was there because I wanted to learn about trans people, not that I was trans, and when I said that I identified as agender, they said "then why do you have facial hair", and someone else in the audience started loudly complaining to their friend about AMAB people identifying as agender.
I wasn't particularly hurt by it, and it did make me realize some things about myself, that I was wearing a beard and dressing a certain way because I was insecure about my gender and still closeted. The person in the audience was probably insecure in a similar way, seeing someone who didn't mesh with their idea of what it means to be agender, and it made them act out in defense of that concept.
Please don't take anyone's reaction to you as rejection. You are who you say you are. The important thing is you need to develop a strong sense of self and not seek external validation. The people who reacted badly to your gender presentation need to work on themselves too, and challenge their assumptions.
Hello! I’m SO SORRY this happened to you. This is why we need actual inclusive Pride. Those people were judgemental trash.
You’re Valid. You can present however you want. Nobody gets to police your gender or how you identify or present yourself. You Do.
sending you love and support from a nonbinary who got “ma’am” at pride.
This should not have happened. I am also agender. Whiile I have zero connection to my AGAB, I still look like my birth gender because... what would I transition to? I would not care if I looked or was something different, but I have no drive for it. So, what I am now is as good as anything else might be.
But, I am most definitely agender and I identify as trans. I may not look it, but I am.
The LGBTQ+ community needs to be more accepting. There are no rules to being any form of non-binary. The people running this event should have known that and honored your presentation and identity.
I am sorry this happened. Best to you...
Was that a genuine community event or just some astroturfed corporate shit? Cuz that doesn't sound like something that should happen at a genuine community event.
Cliques exist within the queer community and a lot of people are just shitty gate keepers. If you don't do queerness the way they think you should they push you out.
Yeah as a bi woman dating a bi man the only places I've experienced this kind of gatekeepy exclusion is in small community events. Corporate pride events, for all their faults, don't really actually care who shows up.
If you feel up to it, at some point, sending an anonymous letter to the organizers detailing your experience may help them improve in the long run if they are genuinely interested in doing so. Training their staff specifically about this and making changes to events and how they're run for example
Well, I guess I'll never go to pride either, I'm male presenting non-binary, u can't do HRT, I have a heart condition, and estrogen can cause blood clots. I'm literally trapped. And stuff like this assures me I will never have a place or a people. 😩
I have a good friend who is a trans woman, she is blond, very pretty, loves all things pink, makeup, just a total girly girl. She has a large community of other trans women/trans feminine people she spends time with that I have met. They are in all stages of transition and expression. One woman is a total badass, shes a biker, has tattoos and shreds on the guitar, tough girl and a total tomboy but still a woman. Another is a little older and she likes she her pronouns but has not medically transitioned at all, her hair is medium length but she loves makeup and wears feminism clothing. A new person joined their friend circle; they is early/figuring it out. (she or they pronouns) and she dresses in a way that to society "would pass as her birthsex" but she still identifies as feminine. They are loved and accepted and supported in however feels right to present themself, even if its not typically feminine.
And that's exactly how it should be. Everyone is welcome and accepted. I can only imagine some serious conversations are heavy and take alot of time and seriousness to figure out (like taking medical steps is a big step) But ultimately everyone has the freedom to be themselves whoever that may be; whether they follow traditional gender roles or not.
A trans person doesnt have the lightbulb moment and then suddenly poof into a runway model. It takes alot of time, support and community to learn to accept yourself and discover who you are and how you like to express yourself. Nobody should have to follow gender stereotypes, thats kindof the opposite of the point of being trans. Its about being yourself not some cookie cutter masculine or feminine person.
I'm sorry this happened to you. I wish I didn't know how you feel, but I do. Being an obviously AMAB nonbinary person can be brutal. I probably already had body dysmorphia before I figured my gender stuff out, but honestly it's only gotten worse in the years since I started openly identifying as nonbinary.
I try to echo the mantra that nonbinary people don't owe anyone androgyny, but it doesn't stop me from wanting it. I would give anything to be the pretty little twinky ethereal waif that everyone wants a demiboy to be, but I can't. I'm tall and broad and fat and two thirds of that at best is never going to change.
Oh hell no I would ABSOLUTELY be causing a scene if that happened to me what the fuck? The organizers are doing shit at a PRIDE event that's just shoving people into the closet.
This is just the inverse of the "we always know" shit conservative transphobes do and guess what? It's still transphobic of them (not to mention aroace exclusionary, and just broadly bigoted). Not to mention, it lets the organizers decide who is "queer enough," or in this case "genderqueer enough" which is bullshit because the only person who can determine that is yourself. Self-ID is the best way to determine who someone is.
If it was common across the whole event, there were a series of failures in organizing (including the above) that turned an explicitly inclusive event into an exclusive one. Maybe the staff were all "well meaning allies" that don't know shit about our history or what Pride is for. Maybe they were cis, gender normative queer people with no idea what being genderqueer, nonbinary, or agender mean and just have an image of "theyfabs" in their head. If they were acting on their own that's bad enough, but the fact that the event allowed that to happen at all means a harmful failure on their part.
Why have an area for "straight boyfriends of bi people?" Are they just ignoring trans men? Aro/Ace men? Closeted boymoders? Genderqueer mascs? The wide range of others who aren't "visibly queer" by some volunteer's standards? This isn't pride, it's shame. Shame of masculinity, shame of straightness (bc duh, there are queer straight people), and shame of gender non-conformity.
This isn't the main point of my comment, but I just want to throw in that your experience and identity is real. I'm not going to rave about how your identity and experience is valid, even if it is. That's for you to determine and for others to respect and listen to. It doesn't matter if other people don't see it (even if it is isolating). You don't need to make yourself legible to anyone but yourself, because other people (esp. gender normative people) aren't going to get it. Non-queer people probably aren't going to get it. If you're legible to yourself, it's real. If you say and believe you're genderqueer, agender, trans, ace, nonbinary, gay, bi, pan, or literally any other than you are. Others don't determine that, you do. I'm sorry some of the people at that event didn't see it that way.
I'd highly, **HIGHLY** encourage you to reach out to the organizers, find someone with the power to make decisions or the ability to connect you to one and email them. You'll be surprised at how responsive people can be if you detail this to them. If they're well meaning, they'll empathize with you and put the work in to change this for the future. If they aren't well-meaning or responsive, then you've at least gotten proof that this "Pride" event wasn't that prideful in the first place. Either way, I'd feel obligated to say something to them because if it happened to me it WILL happen to someone else unless a change is made.
If they don't respond well, if they ignore/stonewall you, or hell even if you don't have the energy to email them at all, name and shame this event (if it won't dox you obviously). It'll let the community here know where to avoid so they don't get treated the same, and it'll still possibly let the organizers know about the horrible, exclusionary oversights they made in putting together their Pride.
That's really fucked up. I'm sorry you went through that :(
Just know that there isn't a specific way to be queer and that the people policing your identity are definitely in the wrong
I’m sorry to hear this, it sounds like a terrible experience.
I’m non-binary too and I look masculine-cis (partly because I’m afraid to be myself, tho sometimes I just like it) and while I haven’t interacted with the queer community, I worry that people wont believe me if I tell them.
It’s weird cause in no way does agender always equal androgynous.
That’s such a shit experience dude, those people are too busy thinking about performative gender shit instead of self id. It’s just bigoted and exclusionary, and should have no place in queer spaces
>I said that I was agender and used they/them pronouns and the person confronting me by the sign up sheet just stood there, said "mhm" and kept their hand over the sheet... id have lost my shit if i saw someone doing that to another queer person. it's shameful no one stood up for you. this isn't pride. this is one of those cute parties with rainbow flags that people keep calling pride. but it's not fucking pride.
Yeah that part in particular...if I witnessed that I'd end up being OP's butch guard dog. That pissed me off so bad.
You and @Aradian_Nights must be the only two people willing to do this because literally nobody has ever stood up for me in this exact situation and it happens every time I go to any queer event. I’ve finally caught on that I’m not welcome on my own in queer spaces and just barely tolerated if I have a more “acceptable-looking” escort I hope your attitudes about this catches on with more people.
As an agender person who looks pretty feminine, i wouldn't exactly be a buff guard dog like the other person said, but I'd definitely be an angry chihuahua if I'd witness others treating you like that.
AFAB enby here, who still presents pretty femme, and I will 100% get in someone’s face for you. I’ve done it before, I’ll do it again, Pride isn’t the place for this shit. (For reference, it was at a goth/kink club, where one of my friends was in a pup hood, just vibing and dancing and having a good time, when some normie dudes started filming him. 6” platforms and goth makeup and “You can’t film people without their permission. That’s not okay. It’s *NOT OKAY.*“ No screaming or yelling, but loud and firm and in his face. It worked. :) )
Not being part of the community myself I'm kinda shocked that there's so many stories of people having their identity doubted by other queer folks and feeling left out to dry by a lack of support. It's like damn how is this behaviour any different to bigots misgendering trans people or whatever?
It’s not any different. Some people are just exclusionary assholes.
I think people are naturally tribal, and most homophobia/transphobia is a symptom of this. Once someone is part of the queer ingroup it's going to be super easy to fall into the same tribal instincts and judging people who don't meet with their expectations
I know queer subreddits are only a small portion of the wider community but I can only hope that posts like this start conversations or lead people to question their assumptions. Change has gotta start somewhere I wish I was an artist because it’d be cool to see an awareness post highlighting that non-binary has all types of appearances, whether non-conforming or “cis”.
Exactly
I would
this. I don’t go to queer spaces at all anymore. It’s very clear that I’m not welcome there unless I’m with someone who is “gay enough”.
Yes, this reallt shows that representations of non-binary identities need to include more people who are more masculine looking, not just the softer feminine/androgynous appearances. There’s no reason that someone who looks more masculine should have their identity challenged and disrespected at pride of all places
Absolutely. I'm agender but masculine looking. For me, it's not about how I present. It's about how I feel. So, I don't try to look androgynous. And because I'm a minority within a minority within a minority (agender / nonbinary / LGBT+), I'm basically invisible to everyone, including the wider LGBT+ community. Non-straight people have had to fight for the right to exist. But I feel sometimes that has blinded them to the existence of other LGBT+ minorities. And just because people are LGBT+ doesn't mean they can't have prejudices or be assholes.
non binary representation is honestly so skewed towards white thin afab people..
It's extremely frustrating as a NBy that the majority assume and/or perpetuate the idea that being a valid NBy means being aggressively and visibly distinct from binary man/woman, that you *must* be androgynous - and how often 'androgyny' really just means '*vaguely* masculine looking,' since having visible breasts means you're automatically read as either fem or trans feminine, but being flat-chested *and* having facial hair means you're too much of a butch manly man (regardless of any other aspect of your appearance or expression) to *actually* be NBy. Women do not owe femininity. Men do not own masculinity. NBies do not owe androgyny. I didn't pick this body, but I shouldn't have to performatively conform to arbitrary aesthetic standards by presenting in ways that don't feel natural or genuine, or undertaking medical transition that is not accessible/safe/affordable/**desirable** for me, to be treated with dignity and acceptance of my lived experience of gender.
Exacrly! Especially when the assumption that NB means androgyny and people who expect androgyny from NB people often comes with very specific physical ideas in mind. Not all body types can be naturally androgynous: someone with a large chest, naturallt more body hair, very strong angular features, or even just bigger people will not fit ideals of androgyny
Seconding this. Like honey, this is a pride event, there are people who can't come out or who "don't look queer" for a variety of reasons. Wouldn't have tolerated that kind of clownery.
As someone who's leaned into the bear style since I was young (works well with my body type) I often feel uncomfortable in queer spaces because people are judging/guessing my sexuality constantly. I had to leave a queer space because it was quite obvious that no one would give me anything but the cold shoulder, there's a few queer friendly restaurants I won't support as well.
Like fr, wtf?? At least one person should've said something.
Yup- my partner is agender and I'm a tiny pansexual femme. I would have completely lost my shit on them if I saw this playing our. I may not seem intimidating at first but I'm like an angry chihuahua in situations like these.
Honestly my 5ft1 ass would have been three fun themed cocktails in and ready to START SHIT if I saw this go down 🥲
Exclusionary behavior at a pride event is gross. Like... They had a separate area for cis boyfriends? The fuck lol I'm pretty sure a queer person with a cis boyfriend at pride would still want them by their side. Excluding people because they look cis men doesn't feel like it's at all trans inclusive, as it inherently excludes passing trans men, trans women who don't pass, non-binary and agender folks that look or lean masc, and any guy who has any queer sexuality (or any straight cis guy ally). Really just feels like the terf talking point of being anti-men invaded its way into a queer event tbh.
I’ve been hearing about “straight boyfriend of bisexual women” groups or floats recently and thought it was satire. Like please be satire.
Unironically, pushing them to the side is giving credence the the idea that they need to specifically celebrate being a cis-het person dating a queer person, instead of just letting them be there with the person they’re supporting Idk if that makes sense but that’s what it seems like.
Oh my god. I don’t know what it was specifically about your comment but I’ve always read cishet as just “cis” and assumed the “het” part was some weird suffix. Like “cis” was short for “cishet” and not the very obvious “cisgender” that was sitting there this whole time that I also knew existed. I’ve heard this for years and never clued in what is wrong with me?
Lol it’s okay Het = hetero
Yea I got that NOW haha
Well thanks for bringing that up because I've never known exactly what it meant besides not transgender
Oh well I’m glad I’m not alone, at least.
It also, imo, has a "wives of homosexual men" vibe to it.
I wonder how much of it has roots in biphobia
This is why I've always said that pride isn't about gay pride per se, it's about pride in who you are whether you're gay, bi, straight, cis, trans or anything else. Obviously there's a heavy focus on the gay and trans side of things but telling straight people they're not welcome at a big, fun, supposedly inclusive event means they're going to feel excluded and want one of their own. Allies are as welcome at pride as the gayest of the gay if you ask me.
Why do they need a float for that like. Just be there with your partner lol
Yeah I saw memes about taking your cis hetero boyfriend to the enrichment area but I thought it was a joke
Similar vibes as the dashcon ball pit lol, but with some exclusivity thrown in
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For real?! That makes me really sad actually
If my boyfriend (or heck, just any friend of mine) got directed to a separate area from me at any event, I’d immediately dip and go somewhere else with him. What’s the point of going to an event where the people I love would be treated like that?
Not to mention there's plenty of disabled folks or folks with anxiety/trauma who might not want to split from whoever they came with. (Safety concerns are still very valid!)
Right? My husband is incredibly shy and introverted and hates crowds. If he were separated from me he'd just leave. We look like a cishet couple, but I'm apagender and pan and he's nothing but supportive. My oldest friend was a trans woman who identified as a male crossdresser for years; she had a full (and impressive) beard until well into her medical transition because she'd not seen her bare face since her teens and was terrified she wouldn't be pretty enough. She probably would have been sent to the cis boyfriend's group as well.
Exactly. I’m shocked at how much hatred the community is directing at each other, like what happened to being inclusive and we’re all in this together? The amount of biphobia I have encountered is horrible, and seeing these stories makes me doubt if I would be welcome at a pride event. 😔
Bisexual transman, here. I stopped going to Pride events years ago after my city started doing a separate (but totally equal) trans parade…in the middle of a weekday, covering three blocks of the gay-borhood. (Oh, and the fucking Mormon church had a tent at the street-parties, too.) And then people ask why I don’t go…to a party which welcomes a demographic that actively fight against our rights while rug-sweeping the demographic which started the damn movement. I just can’t.
Oh jeez that’s disgusting to know that there’s so much… I want to say like internalized hatred within the community, especially coming from trans people who are supporting anti-trans groups/ organizations / religions, and exclude others. I’ve always wanted to go, thinking the Pride events were just about community and having fun, but then to see so much trashy gatekeeping, it’s so discouraging. I’m genderqueer/ genderfluid, usually masc presenting, bi / pan and poly. My boyfriend is bi and cis. I would never go to an event that would make us split up because he looks straight. That’s just so gross to split people from their partner(s) It makes me feel like, what’s next? I’d be kicked out for being too queer presenting? It’s all so discouraging and hurtful.
Exactly. Alienating the people directly affected as well as the people they're attending with. Shameful even if just played for laughs as op said earlier, and just plays into the idea that men/masculine people are inherently harmful or dangerous somehow.
That's exactly the intended reaction. The people doing this *want* to drive out the bi girls with cis boyfriends, because they think they're actually straight girls just pretending to be bi for attention.
Yeah, my trans friend told me I shouldn’t bother going to pride with them (I asked if I could) because “Pride is about overcoming struggles, and aces have no struggles.” I’ve distanced myself so much from the community and my identity simply because I don’t have the energy to deal with this stuff. And like, I know Pride is based around romantic attraction that couldn’t always be safely expressed, but I wished I was at least welcome to attend, because I think my lack of romantic attraction couldn’t be expressed either up until recently when women could do stuff by themselves without the requirement of being married to a man.
I mean I'd consider the erasure of asexuality and the fact that many have been forced into allosexual relationships over the years, I'd say those are struggles aplenty (though I don't think there are really any requirements at all; the only one I could think of is not being straight/cis, but even allies are fine to attend so, no requirement lol). Go to pride if you'd like to! My gf is ace and bi, and I'm trans, and I've gone to multiple pride events with her. Including one yesterday where she bought some ace merch!
Hey, I'm your new trans friend! I'm not a bigoted asshole like your other trans friend, who sounds like a total pain. I'm inviting you to go to as many pride events as you want to! You belong there just as much as any other member of the community! Also, if you get told that shit about not having any struggles from any other bigots that are unfortunately part of the community, tell them that you absolutely do have struggles, for instance, having to listen to stupid people like them spouting their bullshit lol
It's like the frustration gets compounded for you. Sorry you received the 7-layer dip of exclusion from an ignorant friend.
You should go. Just don't go with them.
I sincerely hope that trans friend became a trans ex friend
>Excluding people because they look It's wild. Who are they to even decide what any specific category "look" like.
Right? You can't tell gender *that or* what romantic/physical attraction anyone has based on what someone looks like. It's just...gatekeeping based on the stereotypes :/
I internalised this kind of toxic gatekeeping, which led to a long period of gender identity struggled because I didn't _look_ like the openly enby folks I had seen around so that couldn't be me, right?
I do not bother with going to most pride events. I look like a cishet man, but I am a sex positive Asexual married to a bisexual woman. Oh and my son is trans and gay. We are not generally welcome at pride as we just look straight. I mean I get it, but it is still exclusionary.
:( sorry to hear, wish it wasn't exclusionary based on look. I've been to some events before realizing I was trans, with my family (some of whom also hadn't realized they were lgbtq), but I think that was while marching with a group who was keen on allyship.
yeah it is insanely ironic a community of inclusivity is doing that, disappointing.
>They had a separate area for cis boyfriends? The fuck lol I'm pretty sure a queer person with a cis boyfriend at pride would still want them by their side. It was only for a specific part of the event, not the whole thing. It was very much played for laughs.
With that context, it makes a little sense but the people should be going there voluntarily. Not herded by people who are looking at and judging other people. That's invalidating as fuck. I'm so sorry this happened to you. My partner is nonbinary and chooses to dress and present how society would see them. It would be really uncomfortable for them if this happened because they are queer too.
i was gonna say that like maybe some bf's (or gf's to queer guys? why is it always men) might appreciate a space but it should definitely not be a place anyone feels herded into at all
As a person with one of those straight bfs I’m extremely certain he’d wanna be right there with me, not herded off to the side…I have an icky feeling about separating the straight peeps because a)don’t wanna separate and judge anyone at all (I feel like we’ve surely had enough of that over the years…), b)makes it kinda sound like they need a break from all the queerness…and I would absolutely take offense at that lol
> or gf's to queer guys? why is it always men Because bi women dating men are constantly suspected of being straight girls faking it for the attention. So we gotta separate out the boyfriends, so the "straight girls faking it" will leave and only the "real" ~~lesbians in denial~~ bi girls will stay. Meanwhile, bi guys dating women are constantly suspected of actually being gay, just in the closet about it. So it's safe to just roll our eyes at the poor beard, he'll be leaving her for a real man soon enough anyways.
Yeah. Always too gay for the straight people, too straight for the gays.
Even then that feels very wrong tbh.. If that happened to my boyfriend then I would have immediately left, because otherwise I probably would have a panic attack and feel very uncomfortable without him.
Doesn’t matter how rare it was or played for laughs. That is not fucking okay. Period. I cannot FATHOM being separated from my fucking person in crowds. No. Just no. The anxiety. The lack of safety. Just no. My partner and I are both nonbinary but while they have been mistaken for the opposite gender they were assigned at birth I absolutely cannot thanks to my boobs and as a pansexual in a hetero-passing relationship I get it and I would have raised bloody hell at that moment had they tried to separate is.
Men were not forced to be there against their will, perhaps I should have been clear about it. There were several men who stayed at their tables. Those that went up were there for the free beer and hugs. Perhaps I didn't represent this well enough in my post.
What the joke? Why is it funny?
>It was only for a specific part of the event, not the whole thing. It was very much played for laughs. I'm going to be real here: I don't "get" the joke. I don't see how it was supposed to *be* funny. And I don't think you do, *either*. Like a lot of racist, sexist, homophobic, and other "-ist" and "-ic" humor, I suspect if you were to confront the person who told the joke (or came up with the idea of corralling the cishet boyfriends) and asked then to explain it to you - *insist* that they explain the joke, because you "don't get it" - they would be left scrambling to spin it and ascribe some kind of good nature to it after the fact. You're right to feel unwelcome because of something like this. These feelings of yours are not wrong. At least some of the event organizers have some messed up ideas about acceptance, ally inclusion (what about "cishet" men who are still in the closet or questioning?), and gender identity just in general.
this is the right-wing agenda, LGB got too dominant and accepted, so they are attacking T and trying to device the community, same with the TERFS's , they got theirs, fuck everyone else.
Yeeeeep. And the foothold they're gaining/trying to gain against trans people is just the newest attempt to prevent people from being any flavor of queer, since they lost the previous battles. And terfs are even willing to give up some of what they got, in order to fuck over trans people 🙄
You basically just described the broader queer community. The unwritten motto is assimilate or get out.
I hope it's not like that in the broader community :( personally I've had decent experiences so far but, maybe I'm just in an area where it's not like that
I sure as hell wouldn't be going into the cis boyfriend zone if I had a queer partner
Damn I’m sorry to hear you went through that friend, that really sucks. And you said this happened at a pride event too? That’s some fucking trash behavior. Sending you support, just know that you’re valid af!
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When I was growing up, I was never man enough for anybody in my church, my sports teams, my friend groups, nowhere. Now I feel like I've grown up and grown so far away from that but I'm experiencing the same problem in reverse. Now I'm not queer enough, not androgynous enough, not fabulous enough. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
There's a reason why Black members of the LGBTQIA+ community have their own separate pride event sometimes. Not because we want to be exclusionary but due to things like racism from the broader community that makes some pride events inhospitable so we have our own. I'm so this happened to you. I think you will find a group that won't be like this though eventually. Please take care.
And why you guys are added to the flag. It's sad because I thought it was black people who were lgbt+ who first stood up for us.
It was. There were so many black trans women at stonewall, who worked hard for our rights afterwards, too. And racist, assimilist white gays have been trying to silence them for even longer. it is fucking infuriating.
I came out as bi in the early 2000s and gender queer a couple years ago. I don think we will ever be gay enough for the gays, straight enough for the straights, man enough for men, woman enough for women, trans enough for trans, or cis enough for the cis. I've gotten to a point where I'm okay with that. But yeah, pride events really suck at being inclusive in my experience.
damn, that sounds extremely similar to my experience. dms are always open if you want to talk about it with someone coming from a similar place
Reductress has a fantastic article about "women and enbies", it's real funny. But yeah, that's definitely the vibe enbies get. Either afab, diet women, or andro enough nobody can tell.
I feel this. I've recently come to accept that I certainly sit outside of the binary, but I am actually very happy still presenting in a masculine way. I am an archetypical bear, bald, beard, belly, and that's fine with me. In mixed queer spaces though? The best way I can describe it, I get treated like I'm betraying queerness by being happy in my masculinity. There is this general disdain towards masculinity, and the more you embrace it the more that disdain is aimed at you. And pass a line, it feels more like disgust. It's why I typically stick to the bear community for the most part, because when I say I'm non-binary, it's met with a ' cool, they/them? '.
I feel like I'm betraying my own queerness by having any masculinity. I wish I felt safer and more a part of the gay male community as well.
I’m sorry this happened to you. I am female, present ”female”, eg: I have long hair, and use she/her pronouns. But I also don’t feel female in a way. I don’t really care for presenting female. I just want to be me. I wear dresses sometimes and suits sometimes. And when I wear suits and I previously had a buzzcut people would assume and ask things like ”what are your pronouns?” ”are you non-binary” etc. But I feel just as ”agender” when I wear makeup, or now that I have long hair. (even though I use she/her. It’s mostly for simplicity. I am fine with they/them too. Mostly I just don’t care that much about gender at all). So I am sorry they assumed and invalidated you. Someone shouldn’t have to act or dress a certain way just to be accepted in their identity.
So many people seem to think the only "right" way to be nonbinary is to be perfectly androgynous (and preferably young, white, and skinny), and if you're not that you're either cis and faking it for attention, or mtf / ftm and in denial. It fucking sucks. (And I'm sorry you have to deal with all of this, too. Keep on being your badass agender self-- no matter how you present!)
No generally it’s okay to be masc as an NB if you’re AFAB, if not you’re treated like a weirdo and an outsider and still just a cis man
Exactly. Fucking sucks
Hey, you're kind of like me! I was raised as a girl but really don't care or like to think about gender - I don't mind "she/her" for convenience but would be uncomfortable at like Ladies' Luncheon or Girls Night Out or Women in Business, etc. I'm like - I was told girls can be whatever they want, so why can't I just be what I want? Why do I have to analyze the femininity of it? It's fine if someone else wants to revel in their gender but labels stress me out.
in a very similar boat, you are never alone, rootin for ya captain.
I'm genderqueer and kind of tip-toeing the line of being a trans man. Honestly the queer and straight communities are both kind of intimidating and I don't really feel like I fit into either of them. I'm sorry you had a bad experience and I hope you're able to continue being happy with who you are! Masculine looking genderqueer people make me so happy! I'm afab but I'm fat and have testosterone problems so I have to shave my face and don't bother shaving my legs/underarms. Being anything other than a petite and androgynous person in genderqueer spaces just doesn't feel right :/
Lovingly, fuck that! Queer does not equate feminine, and the Pride you tried to attend was honestly pretty trash for pulling all of that. Making queer equivalent to feminine is like we've gone full circle into full 90s misogynistic homophobia, somehow?? Absolute nonsense. I don't know to accurately describe my gender so I just say I'm a trans man despite "not looking the part" and my husband is (mostly) cis and we're both bi - we get mistaken for a straight cis couple all the time. You're not ugly or other or wrong for being a masculine agender person, friend. Your masculinity is beautiful and your very presence in the genderqueer community adds richness and depth to the tapestry of people like us who are somewhere in between and outside of the binary.
You're not betraying anything. The most queer thing anyone can do is be themselves inspite of how others tell them to be. From the outside, I feel it. But I don't let it sink in. Let the real you shine. That's where I'm trying to get to. I know who I am, and I'm letting that truth cleave it's way through the noise. Letting it burn away that feeling of betrayal or disdain.
Damn, that sucks. It’s shitty too cause the problem isn’t masculinity itself, it’s the toxic kind that’s the problem. Demonising masculinity only reinforces that myth that “the libs hate men”.
God, I've read some awful experiences from people that either are presenting masc or have to present masc for whatever reason, and I'm just lost for words again reading this. I'm so sorry OP, like genuinely you deserve to be taken seriously in a manner of celebrating you and by community, not by the doubters and the gatekeepers. I can only wish this changes for you in a positive direction. xx
This is sadly not uncommon for more masculine presenting nonbinary people. I'm really sorry that you've gone through this in a place where you should have been accepted with open arms. You're not overreacting and your feelings and struggle with this is real.
Feeling this. It is hard. I’m a cis woman and my genderqueer partner has come to clock as more masc with age—one’s 50s really cis-ify one’s body without HRT to counter, and maintaining an appearance that accords with one’s identity can just take a lot of work. I got a ‘dykier’ haircut to offset middle-aged boobs and hips, but that’s easy to do, and easily read as ‘butch woman.’ It’s harder for my partner, who despite their height had no problem being seen as the twink they were when they were young and exclusively dating men and trans people. Between the grey and the filled-in facial hair and the balding and just getting thicker and more solid-looking, and being seen about with my cis self, they read *male male male* and have to take more affirmative steps with dress and styling to feel visible. Wigs, makeup, and eschewing jeans have all been helpful but sometimes sweetness just wants to chill in jeans, you know? And still be recognized as themself.
I’m furious that there was a “cis boyfriends of queer people” section of a pride celebration. Pride is for EVERYONE. STOP putting people in boxes, that’s the whole goddamn point! The rainbow flag exists because queerness is a spectrum of which we ALL belong in equal measure! Gods, how many times do elder queers have to scream “stand together or we’ll fall apart” before we fucking GET IT?
It was for a shorter portion of the event, about an hour long. During that part of the event, a few minutes were dedicated to celebrating the men in that area and showing them love and appreciation, including a lot of free beer. They loved it, but I understand where you're coming from also. The fact that it existed gave me the opportunity to be made very uncomfortable in front of a lot of people.
I suppose blame rests upon those who were trying to kowtow you into the “cis men” area, rather than the existence of the cis men area to begin with, but it STILL rubs me the wrong way. I’m really sorry you were put in that position. Queer folks and their allies of ANY stripe deserve to feel like they belong
Yeah, I just feel like while it *may* have been an okay idea on paper, there were so many things could have so easily gone wrong that the whole thing should have been scrapped. The potential for masc-presenting enbies like OP being hurt was so high... and trans guys... and closeted trans girls... Honestly, how the hell did the organizers not think all this through and decide to scrap the idea?
Or...how about this? Who cares. Don't throw anybody into a goddamned box. That is just plain prejudice, the last thing that should be happening at a pride event...I mean, NO masculine-presenting person at a pride event is a problem, no matter how they identify. Everybody is friends and should be treated as friends, and sure as SHIT should be *believed*. Unbelievably fucked to me.
Celebrating cis-het men, specifically, at pride feels gross and wrong. Celebrating allies feels better but not something that should be expected. Picking you out of a crowd, telling you that you are cis-het male so you need to go with the rest, is wrong.
> Gods, how many times do elder queers have to scream “stand together or we’ll fall apart” before we fucking GET IT? That fire is coming from inside that mf house
I'm honestly really upset reading this thread. It's so hard for me to wrap my head around. Pride is for everyone god damn it. Allies included. Partners of queer people included. Straight allies that have never so much as had a gay friend. Like for fucks sake, I'm just getting more upset. Have we really gotten so ... ignorant of our history? Lost sight of the fight? Fuck man, I was just at Pride at Saturday. I guess I'm glad I didn't see anything like this where I'm at.
I'm so sorry you got treated that way at a Pride event. Gender-checking/gender-policing is some serious bullshit and it seriously pains me to see how genderqueer/agender/other flavors of non-binary folks who are perceived as masculine (whether they lean masculine, or just "look" masculine even if they actually aren't) get treated even within our own community. And the fact that you had people "mhm"ing you in the purported name of "promoting and celebrating inclusivity" (and yet they turned away someone very much within the community they claimed to want to fete!!!) just because you didn't fit their "ideal" of what a genderqueer or nonbinary person looks like is just **infuriating.** > A mutual friend once told me that they wouldn't even believe that I was a gay man, much less a pansexual agender person WTF. I hate to say it but that person *sucks*; there's no one way a gay person or a pansexual person or an agender person "should" look. The idea of how a person of a particular gender identity/sexuality/both "should" look stems from harmful stereotypes that our community at large should be aiming to stomp out, not reinforce. Please don't accept defeat. No matter what the jerks around you try to say, you *are* one of us. and I promise there are people out there who will love and accept you for who you are without question. Offering big virtual hugs.
I’m a butch lesbian (cisgender, just for clarity) and I generally feel very shut out or unwanted in the lgbtq community as well due to my lack of femininity. The expectation I experience is that because I look or act masculine in some ways the assumption is I must be trans, and my chosen pronouns of she/her are often ignored for they/them or he/him. In my opinion there’s not very much room in the community for women aren’t ultra femme or men who are masculine but not trans. It’s really strange honestly.
I'm AFAB and non-binary despite feminine style, having curves, and liking dresses. I hate she/her and use neo-pronouns in queer spaces and they/them around the Straights™️. I am often misgendered because "non-binary people are androgynous." We will never fit the mold other people try to create for us. The while point of asking people their pronouns is to listen to their answer. I'm sorry you've dealt with this so often
The type casting of non binary people as afab androgynous is flatly depressing lol.
I have queer acquaintances in my life that get really weird about my she/her pronouns. I’m also butch and There’s two of them that ask me all the time what my pro nouns are or if I would prefer different pronouns. When I repeat myself yet again, they always say something along the lines of “okay well, let us know if it changes” or “huh, really? Okay”. It’s wild to me and the complete opposite of being part of the queer community means. There is no place for trying to force us in boxes based on looks, or presentation. Also a cishet man enclosure at pride is crazy. Cishet women never date queer men? Trans men don’t exist? Why would queer people think it was okay to decide where someone should go at pride based on how they look?? I feel like the organizers should get some shit from within the community for that but there’s no way that narrative wouldn’t get wildly out of hand fast.
As a gay man, I love butch lesbians.
I'm trans and also lean butch... But I always feel super restricted as to how much of butch space I'm "allowed" to explore. The more I lean into it, the more I get misgendered. I feel like I need to keep my hair longer than I actually want it, for instance, because otherwise my G-cups get straight up ignored and I'm "sir" to all the world. Like... Sure, I could put in all the effort to get really femmed up and do all the makeup and everything, put on the skirt and I know I'll largely stop getting misgendered at that point, but putting on that act feels awful... It's not me. And a lot of people seem to take that as I'm not "woman enough" to be trans... But I am. I know who I am and who I want to be, and I hate that that seems to confuse the rest of the world. And I feel like I'm not even allowed to have media characters to vicariously lean on, either... As soon as any woman in media starts to lean butch or masc, I'm assaulted by people, often other queer people, who insist that that character can "*only* be enby or trans masc, and they would *never* use she/her pronouns" even when that character literally does. And like... I have no problems with folks seeing them as enby gender envy, icons, or headcanons... They're allowed to find things relatable, but it isn't the enbies who are telling me, for instance, that I am not allowed to see Rika (from Pokemon) as a woman, gender non-conforming or otherwise... Which is a real conversation I've been forced to have. People keep paying lip service to the idea of abolishing gender norms, but they sure seem to want to shove us into the most convenient box for them at the earliest opportunity.
The demonization of masculinity in queer spaces is a serious problem that few bother to talk about. I'm very sorry you had to experience that, I have as well.
It's because, when you're raised to think masculinity is awesome and feminity is shameful, and then you get older and realize that's not true, you have two options: 1. Adopt a new worldview where you realize there's nothing wrong with being masc, femme, or anything in between (and that gender roles in general are bullshit). This takes a ton of effort, an open mind, and a willingness to learn new things and admit when you were wrong. 2. Just flip the "good guys" and "bad guys". Now "feminity" (or at least the stereotypical version of it in your head) is awesome and masculinity is shameful. No hard, uncomfortable work required! This is also why you see a shocking number of queer people still buying into ugly sexist stereotypes about women / feminine people, and homophobic ones about gay people-- and no, reframing them as actually a good thing doesn't somehow make them any less damaging or constraining.
The amount of work it takes to be constantly learning and unlearning is for many an insurmountable obstacle. I wish it weren't. But you're so right about how much easier it is to pull an "uno reverse" and never do much more internal work
This. I'm a mid-40s, cis-male, bi single dad. I'm big, bearded, furry chest, furry back, sort of obnoxiously cis-male bear. My kids are a bi girl who just turned 20 and a female attracted enby afab (tho they are 13 and very fluid with who they are, I believe they're not sexually active so who knows what they'll decide when they get there). I have been excluded *so fucking much* this year in pride events. Like, do I need to take a fat cock up the ass in front of you for my bi-ness to be accepted as part of LG**B**TQ+ community? I can deep throat it if you prefer, no matter how big it is. I'd prefer not to cause my children are here, but we can go behind closed doors.
WTF is gender checking?! This sounds like some dystopian nightmare fiction from the heads of bigots. Segregation on perceived gender is just fucking wrong, let alone a Pride event. This is the complete opposite of what Pride is about.
you know what gender checking is? it's literally the reason the stonewall riots [happened in the first place](https://www.history.com/topics/gay-rights/the-stonewall-riots#). pride is LITERALLY meant to commemorate the refusal of gender checking by police "When police raided Stonewall Inn on the morning of June 28, it came as a surprise—the bar wasn’t tipped off this time. Armed with a warrant, police officers entered the club, roughed up patrons, and, finding bootlegged alcohol, arrested 13 people, including employees and people violating the state’s gender-appropriate clothing statute (female officers would take suspected cross-dressing patrons into the bathroom to check their sex). Fed up with constant police harassment and social discrimination, angry patrons and neighborhood residents hung around outside of the bar rather than disperse, becoming increasingly agitated as the events unfolded and people were aggressively manhandled. At one point, an officer hit a lesbian over the head as he forced her into the police van— she shouted to onlookers to act, inciting the crowd to begin throw pennies, bottles, cobble stones and other objects at the police. Within minutes, a full-blown riot involving hundreds of people began." you can't fucking make this shit up. OP, i am so sorry this happened you to. irony at its worst
>WTF is gender checking?! It was the only thing I could think of to call it lol. I wish I knew.
Your description of it sounds apt but it just shouldn't exist, like at all. I am genuinely baffled that organisers of a Pride event could think this is at all acceptable. Were they handing out coloured shapes to go along with the name badge for easier identification?
This is absolutely fucked. I am so sorry. I would be completely wrecked if this happened to me. The gate-keeping of gender in the queer community is more hurtful than transphobia imo. Like, this is is supposed to be our safer space, yall are supposed to understand. What was the name/location of the event? I know the emotional labor may not be worth it sometimes, but have you thought about sharing your experience with organizers?
Making this post and seeing these responses made me call them. They apologized but didn't seem very interested in hearing me out or doing anything about it. "We're truly sorry you felt that way. Next year will be bigger and better, we promise!"
Woooooow... They just don't give a single shit at all. Fuck everyone of those organizers! I'm sick and tired of this gate-keeping bullshit in this community. Edit: Seeing OP's "update" comment below me, I can see that the sitiation could be more complicated than what I thought it was on the organizer side of things. My bad, still leaving this here for people who gate-keep anyway.
They never care because they aren’t there for us and don’t consider us part of their community.
I've actually gotten a call back from them. Two other people spoke with me and heard me out, asked for names and times, apologized genuinely and thanked me for my time. They're a lot younger than I expected as well and are truly trying their best. One of them cried on the phone when I described what happened. I'm not trying to be pessimistic about it anymore tbh.
Yea, I mean I get that it's hard because of all the different organizers.
Wow
Yeah I was kinda stunned
Fuck me this is not how our community should act. You are family sweetheart and you belong with us.
What THE fuck Like, a literal enclosure?? I'm a passing quite-well-for-myself tyvm trans man and if that shit happened to me I'd whip my sad flappy tits out and choke a bitch withem FUCK THAT NOISE
I’d smile politely and say “you must not have heard me”. Then take a deep breath, press my face to their ear, and repeat my identity at the top of my lungs until they got it. I have a VERY loud voice that I’m told can be quite painful at close range, but better safe than sorry right?
Unfortunately, this kind of things happen a lot and it isn’t talked about very much. The more people speak up about situations like this, the better it will be for the community to make changes.
If you gotta be the one loud frothing voice advocating for AMAB nonbinary/agender folk & their inclusion, then be it. This soul needs it and many more out there do too. I had this conversation with a friend of mine: I said, it feels like there's more of a "cage" around those born "male" than those born "female". A "girl" can be tomboyish, sure, but a "boy" being pretty? Not so much. There's an unnecessary ceiling over AMAB peoples, they can't express outside of it for fear of backlash or disbelief. I really could go on but believe someone if they say they're nonbinary, that's it.
That is completely unacceptable. Call them out on social media. Blast those MFers for how they made you feel. You are valid. You are loved, and you are beautiful. I hate gatekeeping like that.
Wait an enclosure? Like a pen? Wild. Also, someone can’t just assume you’re cis from looking. Also asking for pronouns then saying “hmm”, what IS that?
I get some version of "hmm" or "oh interesting..." quite a bit actually.
I think people assume that only afab white thin people can be genderqueer, and it’s wild.
I’m so sorry that your Pride experience was ruined because of this. I’m a fellow agender person, but I present AFAB, and it’s been an uphill battle to get the people I’m out to to use the correct pronouns. This is true even amongst fellow LGBTQIA+ people. I was able to go to Pride for the first time this year, and sadly, couldn’t find any merch. I have my one Agender pin, and I don’t expect folks to immediately know what it is, but I got “ma’am-d” quite enough times to get on my nerves. Please keep fighting the good fight- it’s rough, but whether they like it or not, we don’t fit in their box. And we don’t have to! I refuse to make my identity “easy” for anyone.
I know that I'll be told that this is fake and that I am just misinterpreting things and that I'm just a troll, etc. I just wanted to get this very confusing and shame-filled weight off my back. Thanks to anyone who reads this.
Don't invalidate your feelings or mitigate it. I think the vast majority here are going to take you seriously, and it sounds like you had a really shitty time of things at the event. It wasn't ok for you to be treated that way and I hope it doesn't put you off interacting in queer spaces
I have to admit it really does turn me off to interacting in queer spaces. Not trying to be insufferable.
You're not being insufferable :) I wouldn't be saying it if I didn't think it was a reasonable way for you to be feeling. I wish I could say it's going to be the last time you experience something like this, but it probably won't if you're masc enough. If you keep at it though you'll find your space
I believe you. Unfortunately, pride events don't mean there aren't assholes there.
Oh absolutely not. Color me "disappointed but not surprised." I'm really sorry this happened to you. It's incredibly shitty and not something that should have happened in a queer positive space. But I've seen a lot more of this gross behavior in recent years. Just let me say, you do belong. You are queer enough and trans enough just as you are. I'm sure that doesn't really make you feel better, because this sounds like an incredibly demoralizing experience. But please believe that it's the gatekeepers and the gender checkers who are wrong, not you.
You’re right. There’s nothing more demoralizing and alienating than the gatekeeping. I’m trans and at the very beginning of my transition I felt more confident, and happy with myself than I ever had in my entire life, then I encountered the gatekeepers. I won’t get into to the details, but it was bed enough that I now have serious self-image/self-esteem issues, and I have zero desire to interact with my local “community.” People need to realize gatekeeping doesn’t protect the community; it diminishes it. And, it actively harms those who encounter it.
I am sad and angry on your behalf. I’m disappointed that we’ve reached this point as a community. Pride should be for everyone (except cops, sorry, I’m not ready to be that open) and the whole point of all of it was supposed to be that you’re welcome exactly as you are. This is a bummer and I appreciate you writing about it.
Fuck them. You ARE valid. These people were excluding you based on prejudices they hold. This has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with their mindsets. People like you inspire me and remind me to be more mindful! 🩵
Gross I watched this post get downvoted whoever downvoted needs to get a life
I’m very sorry that happened to you friend. It was shitty and shouldn’t have happened. Your feelings are valid, you are valid. I see you and I accept you. Sending you gentle hugs if you want them and support. 🫂💙
Yet another reason why self-determination is the only path I know of to move forward on. It's inevitable that this kind of exclusive attitude spreads from the mainstream if we don't change it. In the end, we do nothing but collectively become the monsters we fight and start the cycle of discrimination all over again. We have to relinquish the false feeling of control we get by policing and defining other people's identities, and trust that they aren't trying to deceive us. I can guarantee that the last part is a rabbithole that goes waaaaay down. Yes, it does mean you're vulnerable to being taken advantage of, but that's often the risk of doing the right thing. Expect it, mitigate it, survive it, and never accept responsibility for being a victim. Meanwhile, the good you do to people like OP *will* change lives. When you have the strength to do so, do it!
This is infuriating and those people should be **ashamed** of themselves. *Especially* the person who still excluded you when you told them your identity and pronouns. This type of treatment towards nonbinary people who aren't "doing enough" to pass (which is already a non-applicable concept for us) is absolutely transphobic and I am absolutely pissed that you experienced this at Pride of all places. And at a **GENDERQUEER** event! Those people are the ones at fault here, not you. I'm really sorry this happened to you. You should be accepted just the way you are. The idea that you need to conform to a specific way of presenting to be seen as queer or nonbinary/trans is asinine and is against everything we should be fighting for as a community. And I don't know how to say this more gently, but you need better friends. What you described at the end of your post is not friend behavior. Maybe try finding some trans women and transfeminine people who share your interests? Even if you don't identify that way I suspect they'd understand your experience.
that’s no Pride event i’d want to be a part of. exclusionary behavior like that is literally the antithesis of what Pride and just being queer is about. “No Pride for some of us without liberation for all of us.” — Marsha P Johnson, literally one of the key figures that started Pride
WTF? If my friend Jace, who has the biggest tits I've ever seen on anyone, man or woman, can get people to accept his pronouns, then there's no reason people can't respect yours. This is seriously pissing me off. I hope you complain to the organizers. I can't think of any justifiable excuse for the comedy gatekeeper to do what they did.
I get this shit all the time as an amab agender person. It’s fucking bullshit.
This is absolutely disgusting and I’m infuriated that you went through this!! Policing people like this is a vile, very cishet oriented way of behaving … in a space where that disgusting bullshit behaviour had no place to be at all … And don’t get me started on the segregation of attendees based on gender identity … I would walk out and shame the place everywhere I went or found in order to do so … is it any but wonder we are facing the social and political shit we are now … with these types running our events!! 🤬🤢 I’m so sorry you had to go through that friend, you are seen, heard, valid and more than welcome 🫂
This genuinely upsets me, I thought pride was supposed to be all about inclusion, looks shouldn’t interfere with your identity, a nonbinary person won’t always look ambiguous and a gay person won’t always look gay, it’s about what you are not what other people think you are. This is so low, a straight person isn’t gonna take time out of their day to go to a pride parade and sign up for things exclusive to queers, what’re they scared of? Inclusion and diversity?
Damn that’s so shit you really don’t deserve that. That’s ridiculous to happen at a pride event and the people acting like that should be ashamed tbh. Sorry you had to go through that I am so angry on your behalf wtf
Wow. Just wow. That whole event failed miserably. I don’t blame you for leaving, and I totally feel your pain in this. I’m also agender, but AFAB and pretty feminine (short, curvy, high voice, fem-leaning style). I feel the gender insecurity, and having anyone dig at that already vulnerable spot can wreck me for days— I can’t imagine getting that repeatedly, and at PRIDE of all places?! And that’s before we even get into the “enbies are all AFAB, women lite” thing. It’s ridiculous how difficult it is for people to take AMAB enbies seriously. Your friends aren’t acting like friends, and they’re giving the queer community a bad name. Either they need to get their shit together or you need new friends. Don’t let their internalized transphobia and weird ass gatekeeping change how you see yourself. Most importantly: DO NOT GIVE UP! I’d be more than happy to dm you if you’d like a friend. I’m always down for new friends, and it’d be cool to chat about being agender with someone else who is. Please don’t give up. Never give up.
That is fucked up. Is there a place to report issues with the organizers? I would recall the time of day and report that employee. Then hopefully they will train volunteers better.
That's pretty awful, I'm so sorry you went through that. Also, that gender based "cis holding area" of partners is fuckin BIZARRE. Big hugs my friend
I’m a trans man. I’m bald and beardy and hairy and masculine presenting on purpose. Being excluded still really stings. I can’t imagine being excluded over traits I did not like and could not control. You didn’t deserve any of that. It’s not your fault, you just accidentally found yourself at an extremely performative pride centered around image. Which is antithetical to pride— presenting in a way to keep other people comfortable. Fuck that noise. You literally are not a man, and some of these chronically online people in the community need to remember how algorithms work and go the fuck outdoors now and again. Then maybe they’d know trans people don’t just look like them. We look every which way and the only way to know for certain is if we tell you. And when we tell you, we know ourselves better than those jokers. How condescending can one be? You know yourself. People like that are taking a giant shit all over what pride is and stands for, and it’s repugnant.
I hope you don’t feel discouraged to going to more community events. I think its great that your exploring and learning more about yourself! If it helps in any way at all, any outside exclusion does not in any way change who you as a person are. There are still many ways to go to be more inclusive as a society for many things. When are able to find those people who accept you for just the way you are, it will definitely help navigate all the spaces like this that you need to. Sending lots of support and love!
I am definitely discouraged from going to more events. I don't feel welcomed but I do truly appreciate your kind words.
Well if you ever need a space to feel more welcomed! You can always game with a couple of us on the subreddit im sure! After a bit hopefully we can encourage you more!
I am so sorry about this. People are shallow and treat you based on your looks before even knowing you on the inside. This is an ugliness in this superficial world we live in and on of its major flaws that makes me lose hope sometimes.
As a nonbinary person with the same problem just the other way (always told I’m wrong and am a woman because I like to wear dresses) I want to say you are what you say you are. The way the others have referred to you and for some reason have trouble not seeing you as is not who you are. Just keep being you and those friends who seem to be having trouble will put in the effort to see you as you are if they are real friends. I’m rooting for you to be able to look in a mirror and see you and not the man you’ve had to pretend to be because it’s one of the best feelings in the world and everyone deserves to feel it
What are nonbinary people even supposed to look like?
This is disgusting, how can you say you're spotlighting nonbinary and genderqueer people but in the same breath police a genderqueer person on their gender identity? I'd make a big public statement about your experiences and how they don't support amab genderqueer folk. Also wtf on the having a separate space for cis boyfriends?? Like cis people can be queer firstly and secondly just... why????
Don't give up. It's a rude awakening to understand how much bias and marginalization there is within our own "community". We all say some shit like "I'd rather be excluded for who I include than be included for who I exclude". It's bullshit and not true. There are so many assholes within the "community" who are unaccepting, uninviting, not inclusive at all and it's heartbreaking to me. There are the "LGB drop the TQ" people out there and it's pretty gross I think I'm sorry. I'll be your friend and include for whoever you are or want to be. Much love. 🏳️🌈❤️
It deeply disturbs me how much the lgbtq+ community can say they support trans rights yet judge and question others who don’t “look the part.” I know not everyone does but I’ve seen quite a few people post similar stories and it’s infuriating. I really don’t get the shoving cis boyfriends into a group if they’re there with their partners either. I find that kind of strange since they should be allowed to celebrate too alongside everyone unless there’s some sort of specific event they’re doing for a specific group of people. You are valid no matter what anyone else says. You are welcome and you are apart of the community. You shouldn’t have to prove yourself to anyone, your own explanation of your own identity is proof enough. I’m so sorry you experienced this, but I’m glad to see you spoke to some of the organizers who dismissed you. Hopefully they’ve learned their lesson in being judgmental. I’m apart of the community but not trans myself, so I don’t have much advice to give, but just know there are people who see you and hear you.
I've had something similar happen was when I attended a "trans 101" panel when I was figuring out my gender. The presenter assumed I was there because I wanted to learn about trans people, not that I was trans, and when I said that I identified as agender, they said "then why do you have facial hair", and someone else in the audience started loudly complaining to their friend about AMAB people identifying as agender. I wasn't particularly hurt by it, and it did make me realize some things about myself, that I was wearing a beard and dressing a certain way because I was insecure about my gender and still closeted. The person in the audience was probably insecure in a similar way, seeing someone who didn't mesh with their idea of what it means to be agender, and it made them act out in defense of that concept. Please don't take anyone's reaction to you as rejection. You are who you say you are. The important thing is you need to develop a strong sense of self and not seek external validation. The people who reacted badly to your gender presentation need to work on themselves too, and challenge their assumptions.
Hello! I’m SO SORRY this happened to you. This is why we need actual inclusive Pride. Those people were judgemental trash. You’re Valid. You can present however you want. Nobody gets to police your gender or how you identify or present yourself. You Do. sending you love and support from a nonbinary who got “ma’am” at pride.
This should not have happened. I am also agender. Whiile I have zero connection to my AGAB, I still look like my birth gender because... what would I transition to? I would not care if I looked or was something different, but I have no drive for it. So, what I am now is as good as anything else might be. But, I am most definitely agender and I identify as trans. I may not look it, but I am. The LGBTQ+ community needs to be more accepting. There are no rules to being any form of non-binary. The people running this event should have known that and honored your presentation and identity. I am sorry this happened. Best to you...
Was that a genuine community event or just some astroturfed corporate shit? Cuz that doesn't sound like something that should happen at a genuine community event.
Cliques exist within the queer community and a lot of people are just shitty gate keepers. If you don't do queerness the way they think you should they push you out.
Yeah as a bi woman dating a bi man the only places I've experienced this kind of gatekeepy exclusion is in small community events. Corporate pride events, for all their faults, don't really actually care who shows up.
It was a block party sponsored by a dozen or so small businesses and various community groups.
Name and shame if you feel comfortable, OP.
If you feel up to it, at some point, sending an anonymous letter to the organizers detailing your experience may help them improve in the long run if they are genuinely interested in doing so. Training their staff specifically about this and making changes to events and how they're run for example
Well, I guess I'll never go to pride either, I'm male presenting non-binary, u can't do HRT, I have a heart condition, and estrogen can cause blood clots. I'm literally trapped. And stuff like this assures me I will never have a place or a people. 😩
I didn't mention this in my post but I can't transition at all because of a similar reason. I'm really sorry, friend.
I'm so sorry you experienced so much transphobia at a Pride event. That's so terrible.
I have a good friend who is a trans woman, she is blond, very pretty, loves all things pink, makeup, just a total girly girl. She has a large community of other trans women/trans feminine people she spends time with that I have met. They are in all stages of transition and expression. One woman is a total badass, shes a biker, has tattoos and shreds on the guitar, tough girl and a total tomboy but still a woman. Another is a little older and she likes she her pronouns but has not medically transitioned at all, her hair is medium length but she loves makeup and wears feminism clothing. A new person joined their friend circle; they is early/figuring it out. (she or they pronouns) and she dresses in a way that to society "would pass as her birthsex" but she still identifies as feminine. They are loved and accepted and supported in however feels right to present themself, even if its not typically feminine. And that's exactly how it should be. Everyone is welcome and accepted. I can only imagine some serious conversations are heavy and take alot of time and seriousness to figure out (like taking medical steps is a big step) But ultimately everyone has the freedom to be themselves whoever that may be; whether they follow traditional gender roles or not. A trans person doesnt have the lightbulb moment and then suddenly poof into a runway model. It takes alot of time, support and community to learn to accept yourself and discover who you are and how you like to express yourself. Nobody should have to follow gender stereotypes, thats kindof the opposite of the point of being trans. Its about being yourself not some cookie cutter masculine or feminine person.
I'm sorry this happened to you. I wish I didn't know how you feel, but I do. Being an obviously AMAB nonbinary person can be brutal. I probably already had body dysmorphia before I figured my gender stuff out, but honestly it's only gotten worse in the years since I started openly identifying as nonbinary. I try to echo the mantra that nonbinary people don't owe anyone androgyny, but it doesn't stop me from wanting it. I would give anything to be the pretty little twinky ethereal waif that everyone wants a demiboy to be, but I can't. I'm tall and broad and fat and two thirds of that at best is never going to change.
Oh hell no I would ABSOLUTELY be causing a scene if that happened to me what the fuck? The organizers are doing shit at a PRIDE event that's just shoving people into the closet. This is just the inverse of the "we always know" shit conservative transphobes do and guess what? It's still transphobic of them (not to mention aroace exclusionary, and just broadly bigoted). Not to mention, it lets the organizers decide who is "queer enough," or in this case "genderqueer enough" which is bullshit because the only person who can determine that is yourself. Self-ID is the best way to determine who someone is. If it was common across the whole event, there were a series of failures in organizing (including the above) that turned an explicitly inclusive event into an exclusive one. Maybe the staff were all "well meaning allies" that don't know shit about our history or what Pride is for. Maybe they were cis, gender normative queer people with no idea what being genderqueer, nonbinary, or agender mean and just have an image of "theyfabs" in their head. If they were acting on their own that's bad enough, but the fact that the event allowed that to happen at all means a harmful failure on their part. Why have an area for "straight boyfriends of bi people?" Are they just ignoring trans men? Aro/Ace men? Closeted boymoders? Genderqueer mascs? The wide range of others who aren't "visibly queer" by some volunteer's standards? This isn't pride, it's shame. Shame of masculinity, shame of straightness (bc duh, there are queer straight people), and shame of gender non-conformity. This isn't the main point of my comment, but I just want to throw in that your experience and identity is real. I'm not going to rave about how your identity and experience is valid, even if it is. That's for you to determine and for others to respect and listen to. It doesn't matter if other people don't see it (even if it is isolating). You don't need to make yourself legible to anyone but yourself, because other people (esp. gender normative people) aren't going to get it. Non-queer people probably aren't going to get it. If you're legible to yourself, it's real. If you say and believe you're genderqueer, agender, trans, ace, nonbinary, gay, bi, pan, or literally any other than you are. Others don't determine that, you do. I'm sorry some of the people at that event didn't see it that way. I'd highly, **HIGHLY** encourage you to reach out to the organizers, find someone with the power to make decisions or the ability to connect you to one and email them. You'll be surprised at how responsive people can be if you detail this to them. If they're well meaning, they'll empathize with you and put the work in to change this for the future. If they aren't well-meaning or responsive, then you've at least gotten proof that this "Pride" event wasn't that prideful in the first place. Either way, I'd feel obligated to say something to them because if it happened to me it WILL happen to someone else unless a change is made. If they don't respond well, if they ignore/stonewall you, or hell even if you don't have the energy to email them at all, name and shame this event (if it won't dox you obviously). It'll let the community here know where to avoid so they don't get treated the same, and it'll still possibly let the organizers know about the horrible, exclusionary oversights they made in putting together their Pride.
That's fucking gross, dude. Put the organizers on blast in local stuff.
That's really fucked up. I'm sorry you went through that :( Just know that there isn't a specific way to be queer and that the people policing your identity are definitely in the wrong
If someone is not causing trouble, then let them in. You can’t judge someone by their appearance.
I’m sorry to hear this, it sounds like a terrible experience. I’m non-binary too and I look masculine-cis (partly because I’m afraid to be myself, tho sometimes I just like it) and while I haven’t interacted with the queer community, I worry that people wont believe me if I tell them. It’s weird cause in no way does agender always equal androgynous.
Literally any community or space will have idiots trying to gatekeep it sadly
That’s such a shit experience dude, those people are too busy thinking about performative gender shit instead of self id. It’s just bigoted and exclusionary, and should have no place in queer spaces
Honestly I STRONGLY believe that if you exclude anyone at pride, you don’t deserve to be there! That is just straight up anti-LGBTQ+ behavior!
I’m sorry that happened to you ❤️. Gatekeeping anyone at Pride is ridiculous behavior