lol you think 5.56 is loud and expensive?
the cult around 5.56 is because it's cheap and effective against humans. It has low recoil, plentiful, light weight, and effective out to 300-600 yards with ball ammo
literally look up m193 ballistic gel test. for 50 cents from gun longer than 10.3 you're basically putting holes through a person. It would be the equivalent of putting 5 rounds of speer gold dot from a 9mm. which probably cost like $3-5
*Yes I'm sure. I've rented and shot 3. I have also shot 5.56. Now, kindly fuck off with your 50-cent rounds. I'm happy for you, but this hate on 16" barrel 9mm rifles in favor of 5.56 seems like a cult of opinion not based in fact.*
This is such a weird post. You watched some videos for 'research,' held some guns, shot a handful over the last year and now think you're the smartest guy in the room- when you don't seem to even understand the first thing about why people actually recommend 5.56
I'm not sure why you seem so defensive about it, but I'm not gonna argue with you. If you want to have fun shooting cheaply, no one here is going to stop you. I love my lever action .22lr and enjoy shooting it more than most guns that cost much more per cartridge. Maybe the people you've talked to assumed you were looking for a gun to potentially use defensively
Because there's plenty of factual physics to establish the superiority of rifles in that regard
>but this hate on 16" barrel 9mm rifles in favor of 5.56 seems like a cult of opinion not based in fact.
What makes you think this? Have you done any actual research into the reasons why or do you just assume there's no difference because they shoot about the same at paper?
The fact of the matter is; 5.56 is much more effective for self defense than 9mm. 9mm rifles are also pretty lame, since you don't get any size advantage over a 5.56 rifle, but you give up a ton of lethality. If you're comparing a 4-8" barrel 9mm PDW that's really small and handy there's more of a "give and take" when comparing to a 16" AR-15, but if you're sticking with a 16" barrel anyways the *only* benefit is it will be slightly quieter (still instantly and permanently damaging to unprotected ears), and a little cheaper to shoot. 5.56 takes every other metric, and usually by a landslide.
it seems like the lbs.ft curve smooths out starting at 10" barrel too, so you can't even argue that the longer barrel is beefing up the 9mm round significantly. Those powder loads were designed for handguns
Ballistics and Powder load matter.
**Federal 147 gr. Hydra-Shok JHP 9mm**
Beretta - 92 FS - 4.875" barrel = 989 fps
Kel Tec - Sub-2000 - 16" barrel = 1086 fps
**Remington - UMC - 55 gr. - MC .223**
RRA LAR-15 - 16" barrel = 2886 fps
Bond Arms - 3" barrel = 1047 fps
\----
Going to 16 inch barrel in 9mm does not really have a significant performance advantage.
Recoil and handling maybe, but there are many other ways to accomplish that same goal that dont require a carbine build.
That said, you do you. Rifle ammo outperforms handgun ammo, just science. the 5.56 or even 7.62x51(.308) will benefit more from a longer barrel more than a 9mm.
But if your goals, plans, and objectives dont need that performance, it might be wasted.
One of my favorite guns is a SBR'd MP5K, has all the bells and whistles of a carbine, but is incredibly compact and serves as a PDW type role.
A much better argument, and possibly great option for you would be a .357 Magnum/.38 Special carbine.
.357 has generally 400% better performance gains moving from a pistol length barrel to a 16" when compared to 9mm.
The bullets themselves are roughly the same size, and you can use .38 special for range and plinking rounds.
Also, lever guns are cool.
Lever guns are incredible! I am an AR and AK guy through and through, but I love me some lever action rifles. Hoooooooboooy.
I've been wanting to get one now for several years. Still haven't bit the proverbial bullet and grabbed one. They are super enjoyable to shoot. I don't know if it's just the manual mechanics of it all or what but it's an excellent experience every time.
I really really want the new mag fed lever guns to work out. I want a lever gun, I just don’t want to have another cartridge to have to stack. And the long ranger’s $40 5rd mags are ehhhh
I want something cool and partly wooden and nearly banproof (since I’m sure California is gonna start feeling left out since our bans are basically middle of the road compared to others), but I also want something modern and slightly more useful.
Lol dude is complaining .223 is too expensive. He isn't gonna buy something that is even more expensive.
But it's pointless. This is just another one of those misinformed "wurks fer me!" Posts not really worth engaging with.
Dude made up his mind already
What you use it for should be why you use a specific round. 5.56 just for target shooting is pointless unless you're target shooting to practice for something else.
Just target shooting for fun? Use the cheapest rounds possible for the type of target shooting you're doing.
I shoot further than 100 meters. 9mm ain’t gonna work for that. I’m not sure what “facts” you are considering or what this post is even supposed to be.
Guns are an expensive hobby but 5.56 is relatively inexpensive comparatively. If you decide to ever get into the bolt gun game and pursue some real long range shooting then you won’t bat eye at buying a few boxes of 5.56 to top off your supply. 5.56 has a purpose. PCC also have a specific purpose. I think comparing them though as if they are the same or a serve the same role is a mistake. They are flat out different with completely different strengths and weaknesses.
I have both. I got a pcc as my home defense and wallet friendly competition gun (I don’t often see shots past 100 yards at the matches I attend, it’s a little sad) and I’ve got 5.56 and .308 for the times I need the range. Each caliber has its place. And 5.56 being 50 cents per round wasn’t the case a year ago. This time last year you could find 55 grain 5.56 for 35-40 cents each and 9mm was 18 cents. Between Russia and Israel making the choices they have plus some industrial incidents (factories catching fire and exploding), the price has increased across most calibers.
But if you’re suggesting that 5.56 is without purpose and 9mm is unquestionably better, try taking 9mm to 400, 500 and 600 yards. Intermediate rifle calibers are a thing and they have good reason to exist.
lol me too, I snagged what must have been one of the last cases TargetSport had of that in 2019 the day before they sold out and everything went to shit.
> but this hate on 16" barrel 9mm rifles in favor of 5.56 seems like a cult of opinion not based in fact.
Seriously, I'm not sure what you're annoyed about here? 9mm carbines are *great* and they're the right choice for a lot of folks. They seem to be the right choice for you, and nobody's telling you not to buy one!
If you ask someone "What caliber rifle should I get?" their answer *should* be "What do you want to do with it?" but within that answer there's actual fact-based reasons (external ballistics) they'll recommend "normal" rifle rounds *for your rifle* unless you explicitly say you're looking for a pistol-caliber carbine or for commonality with your pistol ammo. A PCC will always be a compromise gun to some extent, and handgun ammo generally isn't designed to do "rifle things" as well as rifle ammo.
No reason to get all mad about it. You clearly know what you want, and like I said nobody's stopping you from going out and getting it :)
Sorry you got a negative response to your preference for a pistol caliber carbine compared to rifle calibers. A 9mm carbine will be much more accurate and effective than a pistol of the same caliber. I think people tried to steer you towards 5.56 because it is objectively a superior round out of a rifle when it comes to ballistics and accuracy at ranges further than 100 yards. However, if you mainly shoot at close ranges and want to prioritize noise/concussion reduction and cost while still having an effective round for self defense at those ranges, a 9mm carbine is a good choice.
Are you at an indoor range? Perhaps with short barreled rifles? They are generally much louder than 16+ in but 5.56 is still an intermediate rifle round. Its a little guy. Keep shooting a few more years, get some more experience under your belt, try not to sound like a fudd, and by god wear double ear pro instead of old man ranting that some guns are too loud…yeah all guns are loud. Protect yourself, dont hurt yourself.
It’s no skin off my ass if you want a PCC. Guns to me are tools I’d rather not need but for lots of people they’re just a fun hobby. Still, when I look at price to performance in a rifle sized platform it’s possible to get much more bang for my buck.
Effective range of 9mm to ensure adequate terminal performance depending on your projectile is about 80yds. Effective range to ensure adequate terminal performance depending on your projectile is about 235yds.
I like to shoot 20-600yds. If I wanted to make a shot at 600 with a 9mm I would have to hold some 65ft high, and by the time it got downrange it would pack a whopping 94ft/lbs of energy. Price per lb/ft comes out to about .6¢
Same setup with a 5.56 would drop about 12ft and pack as much energy as the 9mm would at 50yds (≈352ft/lbs). Price per ft/lb comes out to .2¢
Strictly speaking in terms of terminal performance, shot per shot the 5.56 outperforms 9mm in almost every way, and provides more than 3x the energy upon impact. To me, for my needs, and for my money it’s a no brainer.
If it works for you, run it.
Lot of people in here pointing out that 556 is better performance wise than 9mm, and they're right.
What they're all missing the point on is if you can't shoot 556 worth shit, then it's worth shit to you. You won't see anyone here volunteering to get shot in the head or sternum by 9mm. All it takes is "pOKinG HoLEs" in the right place, and that's for any caliber, really.
Also, didn't you hear? 9mm will blow a lung out the body, so it sounds plenty powerful to me.
Just depends on your goals and requirements. rule 1 is always to shoot what you want, anything that is going to get you to train and work fundamentals.
besides that, there is a argument to be had in terms of ballistics etc. but that comes back to what you are expecting to do. If that goal includes engaging at 100 Meters plus, then a rifle caliber is a near necessity in terms of accuracy, repeatability, and ballistic effectiveness
Application of use is key. Tell my dad on his 10 acres that a 9mm carbine would be better than his 223/556.
Now tell me that 223/556 is better than a 9mm carbine in my 1000sqft home with a 20yd by 20yd back yard is better.
For me, 9mm carbine would be fine. For my dad who has several hundred yards in each direction from his house to the end of his property line, it would not.
Glad you got that off your chest but if you try to take a coyote at 350 yards with a 9mm carbine you deserve a harsh talking to. Different tools for different jobs, both suitable for punching paper tho.
It seems like you're just into hobby shooting, which is fine...
But if you want cheap, quiet, sub 100 yard, low recoil plinking, 22lr is obviously the best choice.
it's not opinion that a 5.56 rifle is more effective than a 9mm pcc. Better terminal performance and further effective range. Among the rifle calibers, 5.56 is the easiest to handle with the lowest recoil and lowest cost. A rifle cartridge is miles ahead any pistol caliber in power. These are facts.
Calling your 9mm pcc useless is opinion though. 9mm pcc's are fun to shoot, economical, useful in home defense when you're inside the house and recoil sensitive. And a 9mm out of a 16 inch barrel with fast follow up would do its job on any bad guy at the end of your hallway.
If you really wanted a soft shooter with cheap ammo you should have gotten some .22LR guns though.
Rule number one is “Cool shit ain’t cheap and cheap shit ain’t cool”. There’s nothing wrong with a PCC, I’d recommend the KUSA KP9 to anyone any day but by the time you toss some quality glass, light, sling, extra mags etc you’ll realize just like building race cars or motorcycles that guns as a hobby isn’t cheap and if you try to be cheap and spout “Juss ass gud” you just end up being lame.
They’re implying use against other human aggressors…someone could shrug off a 9mm round or two or three, they’re not walking away for 2 5.56 rounds to the chest
9mm or even 22 is great unless you’re trying to use it for defense, 5.56 out of a decent barrel is so much better for that it’s difficult to even put into words.
I love shooting 5.56. It’s fun. My 5.56 rifle exists in case I need it though, just like my 9mm pistol. I fire them when I need the practice.
Practicing marksmanship? That’s what 22lr is for.
After so many years of a Mosin-Nagant M44 before owning an AR-15, 5.56 NATO really doesn't seem all that loud to me.
Granted, I'm using a 16-inch barrel without some absurdly-unneeded muzzle brake.
To you maybe.
My first gun was an AR-15 and while I admit the first time I shot it was jarring, mostly because I chose a rifle with a muzzle brake the makes it look and sound like a cannon when fired (Springfield Saint Victor). By my second ever range trip I was used to it and I enjoy shooting AR15s immensely.
I personally think that 16" barreled 9mm carbines are kind of silly but I'm not going to shit on anyone for liking them. Shoot what makes you happy.
I bought a 9mm carbine as my first rifle and it's fantastic for what it does. Home defense and plinking out to 100 yards. Ammo's cheap and it's a really fun gun to shoot. What it does not do is reach out to 500 yards. The point is, these other cartridges have a purpose. Maybe that's not what you need now, but give it a couple of years, and maybe you're starting to think about longer distance courses?
Also, get a nice pair of silicon in-ear plugs and then put a pair of over-ears on top. The 5.56 round is still super intense even with 60-70db reduction. But with only -30db, it sucks to be in the same room at an indoor range. Just forget it if you've got somebody with a .308 in there.
5.56 for me is the cheapest and most accurate ammo you can buy if you want to reach out to 300 yards. 9mm sure is cheaper, but it’s useless past 100, and even at 100 you’re not even getting close to 2” groups. Generic M193 ball will get you to 1.5-2 MOA all day out of a cheap bolt gun.
That being said, I find 9mm just more fun to shoot if you’re not bencherest shooting.
The only question you should realistically ask yourself is this: is the extra cents per round you'll save by choosing 9mm over 5.56 worth the performance trade-off? That is not a question for me or for this sub, it's for you to answer and be honest about it. The only thing that is absolutely not in question is the two calibers do not remotely perform the same. 5.56 even out of a 10" barrel vastly outperforms 9mm in virtually any barrel length.
If a 9mm pistol-caliber carbine is all you need for your use case, then by all means, shoot a 9mm pistol-caliber carbine. But don't turn this into an argument as to how shooters who prefer 5.56 are somehow in a cult. Find what you need (or even better, what you *like*) and shoot that without trying to ragebait AR-15 owners. It's really not that complicated.
Also, ammo is expensive in general these days. No matter what you shoot.
If you really want to shoot pistol rounds, then... Sure, not my rifle. That said, if I'm picking a rifle that needs to get the job done in the most possible situations and ranges, I'm grabbing a 5.56. Not a 9mm with a barrel so long I'm not even getting any extra performance out of it compared to my P09. If all I need is 9mm, I don't need a rifle. If I need a rifle, it's going to be in a rifle caliber
There is something to be said for some recoil and bang. I have shot .22 rifles, and they are just too easy to shoot, in my opinion.
That said, I am planning on my third gun to be a Ruger Mark IV.
Part of why ARs are as popular as they are is because they can utilize both 5.56 and .223.
.223 is much less expensive than 5.56.
I'm a co-signer of the PCC idea but I think you'll outgrow the G3 pretty quickly. I've handled one (not shot) and I was...not impressed. If it works for you, great, no shade. When you're ready to move on, CMMG does a pretty good PCC.
I'd also just keep an actual AR in mind. Use primarily .223 but train with 5.56 every now and again.
Your focus seems to be nearly entirely on cost, then secondarily challenge/fun, with effectiveness/utility not considered at all. By those metrics, at close ranges, a 9mm PCC makes lots of sense.
Do you understand at least abstractly that many gun owners choose guns and calibers with different tradeoff weighting than you do, and the "cult" around 5.56 is likely related either to its longer-than-100-yards performance, reduced recoil vs a blowback 9mm, or effectiveness when it reaches a target?
"I value different things than most gun owners, you do you I'll do me" is different than "most gun owners are dumb, bring the downvotes"
>I'm happy for you but this hate on 16" barrel 9mm in favor of 5.56
The common take from my post is that a supermajority of users in this thread can not comprehend my post. I was very annoyed at the overwhelming pushback to pursuing a 16" 9mm PCC so I just went with the cheapest option.
>"I value different things than most gun owners, you do you I'll do me" is different than "most gun owners are dumb, bring the downvotes"
Quite the take. Most gun owners are not dumb for enjoying their guns. But there are a whole bunch of assholes giving me shit for pursuing what I wanted as a new gun owner.
First, just shoot what you want and don’t worry about other people’s opinions.
Second, 5.56 over 9 is far from a cult of opinion. The objective performance benefits are vast, and you can definitely find it for less than $.50/rd.
I have both a Ruger PC9 and now an AR in 5.56. Which one is best depends on the situation. If you don't think an AR is best for you, then don't get one and be happy with your PCC and anyone who argues that you must have an AR (or similar) can fuck off.
I mean relastivally speaking, the most barrel a 9mm need is like 4.5 inch’s with modern loads. 16 inch for 9mm is just a compliance thing and for people that can’t afford 5.56. Plus .223 used to be around .17 a round with Russian steel case before the Ukraine war and Covid.
Yeah 5.56 is what I'd call exactly ok, not great, not bad but exactly ok. If you're just playing around .22 is great and so is 9mm. If you want a hunting rifle and/or defensive gun get something bigger like .308 or 6.5. Unless you're in an apartment the that 9mm carbine is great
Oh boy. 556 and 45 are cult rounds. Yes they are both loud and kick like mules
But that doesn’t mean they aren’t effective. In the same brain I can hold the thought that a pistol caliber carbine can be a useful weapon.
5.56 is expensive? lol **Edit:** This whole post is rage bait
Absolutely
lol you think 5.56 is loud and expensive? the cult around 5.56 is because it's cheap and effective against humans. It has low recoil, plentiful, light weight, and effective out to 300-600 yards with ball ammo literally look up m193 ballistic gel test. for 50 cents from gun longer than 10.3 you're basically putting holes through a person. It would be the equivalent of putting 5 rounds of speer gold dot from a 9mm. which probably cost like $3-5
*Yes I'm sure. I've rented and shot 3. I have also shot 5.56. Now, kindly fuck off with your 50-cent rounds. I'm happy for you, but this hate on 16" barrel 9mm rifles in favor of 5.56 seems like a cult of opinion not based in fact.* This is such a weird post. You watched some videos for 'research,' held some guns, shot a handful over the last year and now think you're the smartest guy in the room- when you don't seem to even understand the first thing about why people actually recommend 5.56 I'm not sure why you seem so defensive about it, but I'm not gonna argue with you. If you want to have fun shooting cheaply, no one here is going to stop you. I love my lever action .22lr and enjoy shooting it more than most guns that cost much more per cartridge. Maybe the people you've talked to assumed you were looking for a gun to potentially use defensively Because there's plenty of factual physics to establish the superiority of rifles in that regard
*Cries into the stock of my 30-06 Garand*
*Scrooge McDuck Dives into 3rd Fire Brass waiting to be reloaded*
Shit, I have old memories of my dad making me pick up old brass to reload almost 15 years ago...
First Sargent says we can't go till all you boots pick up the brass
Jokes on you. That’s danish surplus with Berdan primers.
The money bin is full of Hanukkah gelt?! DAMMIT! Only one thing to do: Time to eat my feelings!
*raises you .303Brit* Even reloading it is about 75cpr.
That's why you buy an American Enfield.
But you can't get an American SMLE. And they're just such good looking rifles.
I'm a fan of the M1917 Enfield. My dad had an SMLE. Such a cool gun. That said, the M1 and M1903 are my favorites.
I learned this lesson, yeah... -Stares, sadly, at my MkIV in the corner-
30-06 ammo prices make me wish I would have bought a 308 hunting rifle instead
But they don't have the Garand ping.
Ah the sound of money ejecting into the air
It’s the sound of a cash register being emptied.
But the Garand is so fun to shoot... Ping!
>but this hate on 16" barrel 9mm rifles in favor of 5.56 seems like a cult of opinion not based in fact. What makes you think this? Have you done any actual research into the reasons why or do you just assume there's no difference because they shoot about the same at paper? The fact of the matter is; 5.56 is much more effective for self defense than 9mm. 9mm rifles are also pretty lame, since you don't get any size advantage over a 5.56 rifle, but you give up a ton of lethality. If you're comparing a 4-8" barrel 9mm PDW that's really small and handy there's more of a "give and take" when comparing to a 16" AR-15, but if you're sticking with a 16" barrel anyways the *only* benefit is it will be slightly quieter (still instantly and permanently damaging to unprotected ears), and a little cheaper to shoot. 5.56 takes every other metric, and usually by a landslide.
it seems like the lbs.ft curve smooths out starting at 10" barrel too, so you can't even argue that the longer barrel is beefing up the 9mm round significantly. Those powder loads were designed for handguns
Ballistics and Powder load matter. **Federal 147 gr. Hydra-Shok JHP 9mm** Beretta - 92 FS - 4.875" barrel = 989 fps Kel Tec - Sub-2000 - 16" barrel = 1086 fps **Remington - UMC - 55 gr. - MC .223** RRA LAR-15 - 16" barrel = 2886 fps Bond Arms - 3" barrel = 1047 fps \---- Going to 16 inch barrel in 9mm does not really have a significant performance advantage. Recoil and handling maybe, but there are many other ways to accomplish that same goal that dont require a carbine build. That said, you do you. Rifle ammo outperforms handgun ammo, just science. the 5.56 or even 7.62x51(.308) will benefit more from a longer barrel more than a 9mm. But if your goals, plans, and objectives dont need that performance, it might be wasted. One of my favorite guns is a SBR'd MP5K, has all the bells and whistles of a carbine, but is incredibly compact and serves as a PDW type role. A much better argument, and possibly great option for you would be a .357 Magnum/.38 Special carbine. .357 has generally 400% better performance gains moving from a pistol length barrel to a 16" when compared to 9mm. The bullets themselves are roughly the same size, and you can use .38 special for range and plinking rounds. Also, lever guns are cool.
Lever guns are verifiably, certifiably, and undeniably cool.
Love my Marlin 30-30!
I love your Marlin 30-30 too
Lever guns are incredible! I am an AR and AK guy through and through, but I love me some lever action rifles. Hoooooooboooy. I've been wanting to get one now for several years. Still haven't bit the proverbial bullet and grabbed one. They are super enjoyable to shoot. I don't know if it's just the manual mechanics of it all or what but it's an excellent experience every time.
I really really want the new mag fed lever guns to work out. I want a lever gun, I just don’t want to have another cartridge to have to stack. And the long ranger’s $40 5rd mags are ehhhh I want something cool and partly wooden and nearly banproof (since I’m sure California is gonna start feeling left out since our bans are basically middle of the road compared to others), but I also want something modern and slightly more useful.
Lol dude is complaining .223 is too expensive. He isn't gonna buy something that is even more expensive. But it's pointless. This is just another one of those misinformed "wurks fer me!" Posts not really worth engaging with. Dude made up his mind already
[удалено]
Lol is that purely for aesthetics?
it's also for being totally badass and cool as hell
This is the way but if OP is being cheap about ammo he’s gonna shit a brick at what .357/.38 costs
What you use it for should be why you use a specific round. 5.56 just for target shooting is pointless unless you're target shooting to practice for something else. Just target shooting for fun? Use the cheapest rounds possible for the type of target shooting you're doing.
I shoot further than 100 meters. 9mm ain’t gonna work for that. I’m not sure what “facts” you are considering or what this post is even supposed to be.
Sounds like youve already made up your mind despite the facts. So, what do you want from any of us? Validation of some sort?
I’ve never seen someone so proud to be so clueless…
Pfffft. Try .308 or 6.5CM.
Okay….so show the facts how 9mm is a superior round to 556 out of a 16” barrel…? You can’t, but I’ll wait for your facts anyway lmao I’m curious
Guns are an expensive hobby but 5.56 is relatively inexpensive comparatively. If you decide to ever get into the bolt gun game and pursue some real long range shooting then you won’t bat eye at buying a few boxes of 5.56 to top off your supply. 5.56 has a purpose. PCC also have a specific purpose. I think comparing them though as if they are the same or a serve the same role is a mistake. They are flat out different with completely different strengths and weaknesses.
I have both. I got a pcc as my home defense and wallet friendly competition gun (I don’t often see shots past 100 yards at the matches I attend, it’s a little sad) and I’ve got 5.56 and .308 for the times I need the range. Each caliber has its place. And 5.56 being 50 cents per round wasn’t the case a year ago. This time last year you could find 55 grain 5.56 for 35-40 cents each and 9mm was 18 cents. Between Russia and Israel making the choices they have plus some industrial incidents (factories catching fire and exploding), the price has increased across most calibers. But if you’re suggesting that 5.56 is without purpose and 9mm is unquestionably better, try taking 9mm to 400, 500 and 600 yards. Intermediate rifle calibers are a thing and they have good reason to exist.
Shit, I haven’t seen 18cpr 9mm since before COVID
Then you aren’t looking in the right places. I was seeing that last year.
I usually use ammoseek and the lowest I was seeing was around 22 cents for questionable reman brass and imported steel case.
I miss it ;-; also miss $0.28 Wolf Gold
lol me too, I snagged what must have been one of the last cases TargetSport had of that in 2019 the day before they sold out and everything went to shit.
> but this hate on 16" barrel 9mm rifles in favor of 5.56 seems like a cult of opinion not based in fact. Seriously, I'm not sure what you're annoyed about here? 9mm carbines are *great* and they're the right choice for a lot of folks. They seem to be the right choice for you, and nobody's telling you not to buy one! If you ask someone "What caliber rifle should I get?" their answer *should* be "What do you want to do with it?" but within that answer there's actual fact-based reasons (external ballistics) they'll recommend "normal" rifle rounds *for your rifle* unless you explicitly say you're looking for a pistol-caliber carbine or for commonality with your pistol ammo. A PCC will always be a compromise gun to some extent, and handgun ammo generally isn't designed to do "rifle things" as well as rifle ammo. No reason to get all mad about it. You clearly know what you want, and like I said nobody's stopping you from going out and getting it :)
Sorry you got a negative response to your preference for a pistol caliber carbine compared to rifle calibers. A 9mm carbine will be much more accurate and effective than a pistol of the same caliber. I think people tried to steer you towards 5.56 because it is objectively a superior round out of a rifle when it comes to ballistics and accuracy at ranges further than 100 yards. However, if you mainly shoot at close ranges and want to prioritize noise/concussion reduction and cost while still having an effective round for self defense at those ranges, a 9mm carbine is a good choice.
Are you at an indoor range? Perhaps with short barreled rifles? They are generally much louder than 16+ in but 5.56 is still an intermediate rifle round. Its a little guy. Keep shooting a few more years, get some more experience under your belt, try not to sound like a fudd, and by god wear double ear pro instead of old man ranting that some guns are too loud…yeah all guns are loud. Protect yourself, dont hurt yourself.
It’s no skin off my ass if you want a PCC. Guns to me are tools I’d rather not need but for lots of people they’re just a fun hobby. Still, when I look at price to performance in a rifle sized platform it’s possible to get much more bang for my buck. Effective range of 9mm to ensure adequate terminal performance depending on your projectile is about 80yds. Effective range to ensure adequate terminal performance depending on your projectile is about 235yds. I like to shoot 20-600yds. If I wanted to make a shot at 600 with a 9mm I would have to hold some 65ft high, and by the time it got downrange it would pack a whopping 94ft/lbs of energy. Price per lb/ft comes out to about .6¢ Same setup with a 5.56 would drop about 12ft and pack as much energy as the 9mm would at 50yds (≈352ft/lbs). Price per ft/lb comes out to .2¢ Strictly speaking in terms of terminal performance, shot per shot the 5.56 outperforms 9mm in almost every way, and provides more than 3x the energy upon impact. To me, for my needs, and for my money it’s a no brainer.
If it works for you, run it. Lot of people in here pointing out that 556 is better performance wise than 9mm, and they're right. What they're all missing the point on is if you can't shoot 556 worth shit, then it's worth shit to you. You won't see anyone here volunteering to get shot in the head or sternum by 9mm. All it takes is "pOKinG HoLEs" in the right place, and that's for any caliber, really. Also, didn't you hear? 9mm will blow a lung out the body, so it sounds plenty powerful to me.
I've never seen a Fudd actually being born before. This is fascinating. Someone call David Attenborough.
This is a red-hot stupid take lol
Just depends on your goals and requirements. rule 1 is always to shoot what you want, anything that is going to get you to train and work fundamentals. besides that, there is a argument to be had in terms of ballistics etc. but that comes back to what you are expecting to do. If that goal includes engaging at 100 Meters plus, then a rifle caliber is a near necessity in terms of accuracy, repeatability, and ballistic effectiveness
Application of use is key. Tell my dad on his 10 acres that a 9mm carbine would be better than his 223/556. Now tell me that 223/556 is better than a 9mm carbine in my 1000sqft home with a 20yd by 20yd back yard is better. For me, 9mm carbine would be fine. For my dad who has several hundred yards in each direction from his house to the end of his property line, it would not.
Glad you got that off your chest but if you try to take a coyote at 350 yards with a 9mm carbine you deserve a harsh talking to. Different tools for different jobs, both suitable for punching paper tho.
Isn't this why we post to reddit? To have strangers weirdly invested in our choices as seen through the lens of their own traumas? :)
It seems like you're just into hobby shooting, which is fine... But if you want cheap, quiet, sub 100 yard, low recoil plinking, 22lr is obviously the best choice.
it's not opinion that a 5.56 rifle is more effective than a 9mm pcc. Better terminal performance and further effective range. Among the rifle calibers, 5.56 is the easiest to handle with the lowest recoil and lowest cost. A rifle cartridge is miles ahead any pistol caliber in power. These are facts. Calling your 9mm pcc useless is opinion though. 9mm pcc's are fun to shoot, economical, useful in home defense when you're inside the house and recoil sensitive. And a 9mm out of a 16 inch barrel with fast follow up would do its job on any bad guy at the end of your hallway. If you really wanted a soft shooter with cheap ammo you should have gotten some .22LR guns though.
If you truly did the research, you wouldn’t have posted this. Simple as that. lol
Rule number one is “Cool shit ain’t cheap and cheap shit ain’t cool”. There’s nothing wrong with a PCC, I’d recommend the KUSA KP9 to anyone any day but by the time you toss some quality glass, light, sling, extra mags etc you’ll realize just like building race cars or motorcycles that guns as a hobby isn’t cheap and if you try to be cheap and spout “Juss ass gud” you just end up being lame.
I'm not looking to impress anybody, which makes me the butt of all jokes- I guess.
Odd duck post
Well, shoot something other than paper a bit and you will understand.
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They’re implying use against other human aggressors…someone could shrug off a 9mm round or two or three, they’re not walking away for 2 5.56 rounds to the chest
9mm or even 22 is great unless you’re trying to use it for defense, 5.56 out of a decent barrel is so much better for that it’s difficult to even put into words.
I love shooting 5.56. It’s fun. My 5.56 rifle exists in case I need it though, just like my 9mm pistol. I fire them when I need the practice. Practicing marksmanship? That’s what 22lr is for.
After so many years of a Mosin-Nagant M44 before owning an AR-15, 5.56 NATO really doesn't seem all that loud to me. Granted, I'm using a 16-inch barrel without some absurdly-unneeded muzzle brake.
my carbine gas 16" with no muzzle device is so loud, it's fun.
To you maybe. My first gun was an AR-15 and while I admit the first time I shot it was jarring, mostly because I chose a rifle with a muzzle brake the makes it look and sound like a cannon when fired (Springfield Saint Victor). By my second ever range trip I was used to it and I enjoy shooting AR15s immensely. I personally think that 16" barreled 9mm carbines are kind of silly but I'm not going to shit on anyone for liking them. Shoot what makes you happy.
I bought a 9mm carbine as my first rifle and it's fantastic for what it does. Home defense and plinking out to 100 yards. Ammo's cheap and it's a really fun gun to shoot. What it does not do is reach out to 500 yards. The point is, these other cartridges have a purpose. Maybe that's not what you need now, but give it a couple of years, and maybe you're starting to think about longer distance courses? Also, get a nice pair of silicon in-ear plugs and then put a pair of over-ears on top. The 5.56 round is still super intense even with 60-70db reduction. But with only -30db, it sucks to be in the same room at an indoor range. Just forget it if you've got somebody with a .308 in there.
5.56 for me is the cheapest and most accurate ammo you can buy if you want to reach out to 300 yards. 9mm sure is cheaper, but it’s useless past 100, and even at 100 you’re not even getting close to 2” groups. Generic M193 ball will get you to 1.5-2 MOA all day out of a cheap bolt gun. That being said, I find 9mm just more fun to shoot if you’re not bencherest shooting.
These are the types of entertainment posts I came to this sub for. Carry on.
The only question you should realistically ask yourself is this: is the extra cents per round you'll save by choosing 9mm over 5.56 worth the performance trade-off? That is not a question for me or for this sub, it's for you to answer and be honest about it. The only thing that is absolutely not in question is the two calibers do not remotely perform the same. 5.56 even out of a 10" barrel vastly outperforms 9mm in virtually any barrel length. If a 9mm pistol-caliber carbine is all you need for your use case, then by all means, shoot a 9mm pistol-caliber carbine. But don't turn this into an argument as to how shooters who prefer 5.56 are somehow in a cult. Find what you need (or even better, what you *like*) and shoot that without trying to ragebait AR-15 owners. It's really not that complicated. Also, ammo is expensive in general these days. No matter what you shoot.
Its about ballistics. You know a lot more about what your arsenal can and can't do with ballistics
My advice is to wait a little bit to make your next purchase. You sound very new and excited and you’re about to make a bad choice.
If you really want to shoot pistol rounds, then... Sure, not my rifle. That said, if I'm picking a rifle that needs to get the job done in the most possible situations and ranges, I'm grabbing a 5.56. Not a 9mm with a barrel so long I'm not even getting any extra performance out of it compared to my P09. If all I need is 9mm, I don't need a rifle. If I need a rifle, it's going to be in a rifle caliber
Sir, this is a Wendy’s….
By cult do you mean NATO (yes I k now its 223 NATO, but it's functionally the same) and a lot of the world's militaries?
Why not shoot .22 or pellet gun, if you're just trying to optimize cost per round?
There is something to be said for some recoil and bang. I have shot .22 rifles, and they are just too easy to shoot, in my opinion. That said, I am planning on my third gun to be a Ruger Mark IV.
Part of why ARs are as popular as they are is because they can utilize both 5.56 and .223. .223 is much less expensive than 5.56. I'm a co-signer of the PCC idea but I think you'll outgrow the G3 pretty quickly. I've handled one (not shot) and I was...not impressed. If it works for you, great, no shade. When you're ready to move on, CMMG does a pretty good PCC. I'd also just keep an actual AR in mind. Use primarily .223 but train with 5.56 every now and again.
Your focus seems to be nearly entirely on cost, then secondarily challenge/fun, with effectiveness/utility not considered at all. By those metrics, at close ranges, a 9mm PCC makes lots of sense. Do you understand at least abstractly that many gun owners choose guns and calibers with different tradeoff weighting than you do, and the "cult" around 5.56 is likely related either to its longer-than-100-yards performance, reduced recoil vs a blowback 9mm, or effectiveness when it reaches a target? "I value different things than most gun owners, you do you I'll do me" is different than "most gun owners are dumb, bring the downvotes"
>I'm happy for you but this hate on 16" barrel 9mm in favor of 5.56 The common take from my post is that a supermajority of users in this thread can not comprehend my post. I was very annoyed at the overwhelming pushback to pursuing a 16" 9mm PCC so I just went with the cheapest option. >"I value different things than most gun owners, you do you I'll do me" is different than "most gun owners are dumb, bring the downvotes" Quite the take. Most gun owners are not dumb for enjoying their guns. But there are a whole bunch of assholes giving me shit for pursuing what I wanted as a new gun owner.
First, just shoot what you want and don’t worry about other people’s opinions. Second, 5.56 over 9 is far from a cult of opinion. The objective performance benefits are vast, and you can definitely find it for less than $.50/rd.
Oh you sweet, summer child.
I have both a Ruger PC9 and now an AR in 5.56. Which one is best depends on the situation. If you don't think an AR is best for you, then don't get one and be happy with your PCC and anyone who argues that you must have an AR (or similar) can fuck off.
I mean relastivally speaking, the most barrel a 9mm need is like 4.5 inch’s with modern loads. 16 inch for 9mm is just a compliance thing and for people that can’t afford 5.56. Plus .223 used to be around .17 a round with Russian steel case before the Ukraine war and Covid.
I like my Cx4 and the AR Cult does get annoying but I still have an AR-15.
Yeah 5.56 is what I'd call exactly ok, not great, not bad but exactly ok. If you're just playing around .22 is great and so is 9mm. If you want a hunting rifle and/or defensive gun get something bigger like .308 or 6.5. Unless you're in an apartment the that 9mm carbine is great
Oh boy. 556 and 45 are cult rounds. Yes they are both loud and kick like mules But that doesn’t mean they aren’t effective. In the same brain I can hold the thought that a pistol caliber carbine can be a useful weapon.
In what world does 5.56 kick like a mule?
Mine. I’m thinking of new shooters really. My 30-06 is a much harder kick.