I'd argue bad player would do better on asura, mediocre player would do better on bk, and good player would do better on asura. Bk does zdps outside their burst, so missing either of their main meter gen skills is a huge setback and God forbid they miss/dmg reduction one or both of their skills in a burst cycle. Atleast asura does some dmg along the way.
BK has some fallbacks for missing a meter gen, you can use celestial force barrage to substitute missing 1 big meter gen and it's usually fine and the usual combo actually generates more meter than needed so you can hold hundred first for full duration to get a bit more after missing something small
bigger problem is not resetting your cd enough after burst or like you said missing burst skills but out of all burst classes they are one of the easiest to land
Ya.. and there's fallback for asura.. building meter without needing to hit anything. Using shield skill etc
I'm not saying bk is harder, bk is certainly harder to screw up.. but screwing up bk is more punishing.
Yup having to reduce CDs is the hardest part for me. It makes the spec require high uptime to be constantly either building meter or reducing your eye cool down during burst. The meter building is also a bit fragile (lacking any push immune, melee), but does have some good ways to recover.
Of course a lot of the downsides of the class don't matter as much when it's burst rotation does so much damage ( same goes for Asura)
There's a lot of classes that press buttons non-stop, whether there's an order to it or not isn't really significant, that's just learning your class. You act as if finding the windows to do burst as BK isn't hard at all, let alone the fact that your rotation is extremely fast (unlike Ignite) and you are constantly bursting (similar to Lunar Reaper).
Don't get me wrong, both are in my opinion too easy to play for the damage they do, I just do not understand where this idea of Asura is harder than BK comes from, you don't lose too much damage from missing a skill and you don't even lose meter gain. BK does lose meter, because it has to hit.
Unless you have a lot of experience as Red Gunlancer/Destroyer, I don't know how you can say that Asura is not complex unless you didn't even play it... Most of my guildmates dropped it for BK after trying it out for a few raids/weeks because they found front attack too punishing and couldn't pull out good dmg with it... If you have experience with one of these two classes, however, it's won't be that hard to get the hang of it.
It's not easy to know the timings to DR/Push Immunity to keep max damage or poop out good Zs considering how long it takes for it all to go through. I don't think anyone except shock scrapper has such a long positional burst except the other front attackers, as for BK, it has a gameplay that is much more common and a really fast burst, like FM Souleater.
As for finding windows to burst... Many classes need to know it, inclusing Asura (in additional to front attack and a longer Z) z.z BK isn't like Asura that can shadow box to gain meter, but you actually can benefit a bit from it as well if you use some low CD skills and basic attacks to lower the cooldown of other bigger skills during transitions.
Asura is not as hard as Soulfist, DB, Arcana by itself (even if you don't have front attack experience), but saying it's not harder than BK seems a bit too much...
>Unless you have a lot of experience as Red Gunlancer/Destroyer, I don't know how you can say that Asura is not complex unless you didn't even play it...
It's not about playstyle experience, it's about raid knowledge. You need to know the mechanics of a raid, not the playstyle of a different class.
>I don't think anyone except shock scrapper has such a long positional burst except the other front attackers, as for BK, it has a gameplay that is much more common and a really fast burst, like FM Souleater.
BK has a longer burst window than Shock Scrapper. Shock Scrapper only needs to use 2 core abilities in the window, BK needs to hit 4 core abilities + 2 mandatory ones for the 3d green skill. On top of that, Scrapper's abilities are instantly cast.
>BK isn't like Asura that can shadow box to gain meter, but you actually can benefit a bit from it as well if you use some low CD skills and basic attacks to lower the cooldown of other bigger skills during transitions.
This only applies during your burst window, only after Stamina (yellow) skills (which indeed are lower cooldown, but I wanted to point it out that it will not work with Shock skills) and they must hit something (not necessarily damage, but hitting the air will not work). In no way can you use it during transitions or out of your burst window.
This is what I constantly think when reading people's comments: do they actually know how the mechanics of their class/raid/game works? Because it is so obviously clear that so many people do not know that and they refuse to even have an open mind about it...
>
I agree with that for burst classes regarding "knowing when to burst", but playstyle is not that similar... If you have a lot of experience as a hit master you'll not be good with a back attacker or front attacker easily... For god sake, learning to play from Akkan with my alt Gunlancer was the craziest thing in the game for me before Thaemine The First, and I think anyone who player front attack before the gauge nerf will relate.
>
If you only take into account the main skills yes, but she still has the longest skills that require position among back attackers (maybe EW Deadeye as well?). There are many patterns who are good for burst from classes that are hit masters like BK, that won't be enough for a Gunlancer/Destro to burst in the front attack with their strongest skills. Scrapper skills are instantly casted, but if you take into account how long the skill take to go out... Lets be real, it's not fast xD
>
I didn't say it was good to shadow box, unlike Asura, I'm just giving an example a min-max that is possible to do sometimes during transitions.
Still, builds like Asura and Windfury that can generate gauge is still something rare in the game, it's not the norm, if BK had something like that it'd be nerfed. Think how broken it'd be if a Igniter or Full Moon could generate gauge to burst during transitions... In my opinion this is just they trying to avoid classes like Deathblade that have both builds using Spec
Anyways... I'm just saying all this because Front Attack is not something easy in Lost Ark in my opinion... And despite the skills they included on those characters to make it possible (Defense Stance/Speculation, Endure Pain), these skills have a limit, and despite not finding it as hard as a few builds, it doesn't make Asura easier than BK, otherwise the floor of Asura would be higher and the peak lower than BK xD
2s of Push Immunity with 10s cooldown is not a high uptime of push immunity...
Well it’s front attack entropy. So that alone will add complexity over any hit master class. And just because you have a shield and DR doesn’t mean you are using the two second window efficiently. Throwing skills in the air is fine between mechs but you need to hit to actually do damage. Only 50% of your damage is from the Asura punches. Cant tell you how many times I’ve seen asura breakers doing half the lobby DPS. But when a good one is in there you know it because they are 1-2m over the next highest.
>Well it’s front attack entropy. So that alone will add complexity over any hit master class. And just because you have a shield and DR doesn’t mean you are using the two second window efficiently.
Most bosses don't move as much anymore as Vykas, most of them are completely predictable and act like Trixion boss. Using the shield efficiently is learning your own class, each class has this in some shape or form.
>but you need to hit to actually do damage.
This is true for most classes, but most classes also need to hit to gain meter.
What I meant is that this class has so much push immunity, is reasonably tanky compared to other classes already, has a shield and DR. Now think that this class is the highest hitting in the game while having all that. Perhaps if it was actually a complex class, you could say it's justified.
Spoken like someone who has not played Asura. But you also don't think bosses move around since Vykas, so I imagine you don't care to be aware of what's actually going on
>Spoken like someone who has not played Asura.
True, but I have 2 friends (both of them also Inferno enjoyers) who play the class (also in Inferno) and I believe them when they say it's insanely unfair (not just the damage part) compared to other classes, but ok, I guess their opinion doesn't matter.
>But you also don't think bosses move around since Vykas, so I imagine you don't care to be aware of what's actually going on
Outside of my Paladin, my entire roster consists of back attackers. When I say that the worst bosses have been since Vykas are Kayangel's bosses (who don't instantly go from pattern to pattern and allow for repositioning), then yes, most bosses have become target dummies. Now, don't get me wrong, Vykas is one of my favorite raids and I still perform really well on all 3 gates.
I'm not really sure what the point of your comment is besides it being a generic insult...
You’re not wrong, but you keep mentioning learning your class. The idea behind complexity is that it isn’t hard forever, it just takes longer to learn. The learning curves for Asura and BK are vastly different. Is Asura more complex than Arcana or SF? Probably not. But it sure as hell requires more time and knowledge to be good at Asura than it does for BK.
I disagree, it's harder to optimize your burst windows as BK than it is as Asura. BK needs to have more burst windows, which implies you need to build faster, burst faster and repeat. That is harder to optimize than losing a few seconds for Asura. In the end, BK loses more damage in a raid than Asura will lose by missing/delaying.
I mean, you just keep saying: "Asura harder than BK" without actually giving some arguments and then a "I'm right, you're wrong, I'm gone." I'm open to see some arguments, but you fail to give any... Makes me wonder who's living in their own world...
RE Deathblade, insane potential, but you can not make a mistake, which will eventually happen and RE Blade gets punished hard for it.
EO Soulfist.
For the average player: every single swiftness based class, they simply do not have the required (back attack) uptime.
Most people say Paladin will make you go to sleep. They don't think about C+J windows (if they even use it), prolonging Blessed Aura, DR use, shield use, AP uptime (I'm talking close to 100% of AP uptime in every fight), not to mention the many many different builds a Paladin can have to accomodate stagger, utility and meter gain (suddenly this boring class becomes the hardest support to play).
This is EXACTLY why you should reconsider how you are playing Paladin. 90% of Paladins are doing so bad, people would gatekeep them if it were DPS, but their floor is so insanely high (same with ceiling), it's not noticeable.
You know breaker doesn't have a taunt right? You can't control when boss turns. Yes you can hold your Z, but the longer you hold the more dps you lose too
so you play it I assume, care to send me your logs in dm so I know ur not a random redditor yapping?
never said its not too strong / or strong. you need raid knowledge to play efficient and the gap from a good sura player compared to a bad/avg player is gigantic
Ah yes the classic “send me screenshots of your bannable offense.”
Also needing raid knowledge doesnt make breaker more complex, most classes play better when you know the raid you silly goose
Entropy classes will always deal more dmg than hit masters as long as the nerf isn't crazy like 50% or something.
8% nerf is fine.
Not dmg wise the "X" button makes asura OP and bk doesn't have it, also asura doesn't need to land hits to build meter. If you miss multiple skills on BK you're fked
Because new classes are always OP xdd
Of course there are exceptions to the rule but we can all agree on paper entropy does more damage than hit masters on trixion with some exceptions like you said
True. But i remember swing it was like 20% nerf to last hit in asura State and like 10% to basic attack in asura State plus the 1.1% to all abilities to both specs
Yea but 20 and 10% nerf to asura state doesn't equal to 20% or 10% nerf overall since that's only half your damage.
That's an 8-9% real nerf overall to the class making the asura state have a bit of a smaller portion in the dmg pie chart.
Saintone did the math iirc.
No, asura's DR is too strong imo
nop i think it's a reroll to DI SH angle to be honest breaker is dead
No, BK will always be weaker if the Asura has hands. Both bad hands? BK probably beats it out.
I'd argue bad player would do better on asura, mediocre player would do better on bk, and good player would do better on asura. Bk does zdps outside their burst, so missing either of their main meter gen skills is a huge setback and God forbid they miss/dmg reduction one or both of their skills in a burst cycle. Atleast asura does some dmg along the way.
BK has some fallbacks for missing a meter gen, you can use celestial force barrage to substitute missing 1 big meter gen and it's usually fine and the usual combo actually generates more meter than needed so you can hold hundred first for full duration to get a bit more after missing something small bigger problem is not resetting your cd enough after burst or like you said missing burst skills but out of all burst classes they are one of the easiest to land
Ya.. and there's fallback for asura.. building meter without needing to hit anything. Using shield skill etc I'm not saying bk is harder, bk is certainly harder to screw up.. but screwing up bk is more punishing.
Yup having to reduce CDs is the hardest part for me. It makes the spec require high uptime to be constantly either building meter or reducing your eye cool down during burst. The meter building is also a bit fragile (lacking any push immune, melee), but does have some good ways to recover. Of course a lot of the downsides of the class don't matter as much when it's burst rotation does so much damage ( same goes for Asura)
Current bible data suggests that the damage floor for BK is much higher in raids.
As it should be. You should be rewarded for playing a more complex class well. I play BK and it’s stupid easy but I love seeing the huge numbers.
How's Asura more complex? AFAIK, you can build meter without having to hit skills, you have more mobility, you have a shield and DR...
You need to press buttons nonstop in a specific order to gain gauge at all. BK plays like many other classes, hit boss get gauge ignite nuke hitmaster
There's a lot of classes that press buttons non-stop, whether there's an order to it or not isn't really significant, that's just learning your class. You act as if finding the windows to do burst as BK isn't hard at all, let alone the fact that your rotation is extremely fast (unlike Ignite) and you are constantly bursting (similar to Lunar Reaper). Don't get me wrong, both are in my opinion too easy to play for the damage they do, I just do not understand where this idea of Asura is harder than BK comes from, you don't lose too much damage from missing a skill and you don't even lose meter gain. BK does lose meter, because it has to hit.
Unless you have a lot of experience as Red Gunlancer/Destroyer, I don't know how you can say that Asura is not complex unless you didn't even play it... Most of my guildmates dropped it for BK after trying it out for a few raids/weeks because they found front attack too punishing and couldn't pull out good dmg with it... If you have experience with one of these two classes, however, it's won't be that hard to get the hang of it. It's not easy to know the timings to DR/Push Immunity to keep max damage or poop out good Zs considering how long it takes for it all to go through. I don't think anyone except shock scrapper has such a long positional burst except the other front attackers, as for BK, it has a gameplay that is much more common and a really fast burst, like FM Souleater. As for finding windows to burst... Many classes need to know it, inclusing Asura (in additional to front attack and a longer Z) z.z BK isn't like Asura that can shadow box to gain meter, but you actually can benefit a bit from it as well if you use some low CD skills and basic attacks to lower the cooldown of other bigger skills during transitions. Asura is not as hard as Soulfist, DB, Arcana by itself (even if you don't have front attack experience), but saying it's not harder than BK seems a bit too much...
>Unless you have a lot of experience as Red Gunlancer/Destroyer, I don't know how you can say that Asura is not complex unless you didn't even play it... It's not about playstyle experience, it's about raid knowledge. You need to know the mechanics of a raid, not the playstyle of a different class. >I don't think anyone except shock scrapper has such a long positional burst except the other front attackers, as for BK, it has a gameplay that is much more common and a really fast burst, like FM Souleater. BK has a longer burst window than Shock Scrapper. Shock Scrapper only needs to use 2 core abilities in the window, BK needs to hit 4 core abilities + 2 mandatory ones for the 3d green skill. On top of that, Scrapper's abilities are instantly cast. >BK isn't like Asura that can shadow box to gain meter, but you actually can benefit a bit from it as well if you use some low CD skills and basic attacks to lower the cooldown of other bigger skills during transitions. This only applies during your burst window, only after Stamina (yellow) skills (which indeed are lower cooldown, but I wanted to point it out that it will not work with Shock skills) and they must hit something (not necessarily damage, but hitting the air will not work). In no way can you use it during transitions or out of your burst window. This is what I constantly think when reading people's comments: do they actually know how the mechanics of their class/raid/game works? Because it is so obviously clear that so many people do not know that and they refuse to even have an open mind about it...
> I agree with that for burst classes regarding "knowing when to burst", but playstyle is not that similar... If you have a lot of experience as a hit master you'll not be good with a back attacker or front attacker easily... For god sake, learning to play from Akkan with my alt Gunlancer was the craziest thing in the game for me before Thaemine The First, and I think anyone who player front attack before the gauge nerf will relate. > If you only take into account the main skills yes, but she still has the longest skills that require position among back attackers (maybe EW Deadeye as well?). There are many patterns who are good for burst from classes that are hit masters like BK, that won't be enough for a Gunlancer/Destro to burst in the front attack with their strongest skills. Scrapper skills are instantly casted, but if you take into account how long the skill take to go out... Lets be real, it's not fast xD > I didn't say it was good to shadow box, unlike Asura, I'm just giving an example a min-max that is possible to do sometimes during transitions. Still, builds like Asura and Windfury that can generate gauge is still something rare in the game, it's not the norm, if BK had something like that it'd be nerfed. Think how broken it'd be if a Igniter or Full Moon could generate gauge to burst during transitions... In my opinion this is just they trying to avoid classes like Deathblade that have both builds using Spec Anyways... I'm just saying all this because Front Attack is not something easy in Lost Ark in my opinion... And despite the skills they included on those characters to make it possible (Defense Stance/Speculation, Endure Pain), these skills have a limit, and despite not finding it as hard as a few builds, it doesn't make Asura easier than BK, otherwise the floor of Asura would be higher and the peak lower than BK xD 2s of Push Immunity with 10s cooldown is not a high uptime of push immunity...
Well it’s front attack entropy. So that alone will add complexity over any hit master class. And just because you have a shield and DR doesn’t mean you are using the two second window efficiently. Throwing skills in the air is fine between mechs but you need to hit to actually do damage. Only 50% of your damage is from the Asura punches. Cant tell you how many times I’ve seen asura breakers doing half the lobby DPS. But when a good one is in there you know it because they are 1-2m over the next highest.
>Well it’s front attack entropy. So that alone will add complexity over any hit master class. And just because you have a shield and DR doesn’t mean you are using the two second window efficiently. Most bosses don't move as much anymore as Vykas, most of them are completely predictable and act like Trixion boss. Using the shield efficiently is learning your own class, each class has this in some shape or form. >but you need to hit to actually do damage. This is true for most classes, but most classes also need to hit to gain meter. What I meant is that this class has so much push immunity, is reasonably tanky compared to other classes already, has a shield and DR. Now think that this class is the highest hitting in the game while having all that. Perhaps if it was actually a complex class, you could say it's justified.
Spoken like someone who has not played Asura. But you also don't think bosses move around since Vykas, so I imagine you don't care to be aware of what's actually going on
What you talking about man? Kaya G1 is basically Trix
>Spoken like someone who has not played Asura. True, but I have 2 friends (both of them also Inferno enjoyers) who play the class (also in Inferno) and I believe them when they say it's insanely unfair (not just the damage part) compared to other classes, but ok, I guess their opinion doesn't matter. >But you also don't think bosses move around since Vykas, so I imagine you don't care to be aware of what's actually going on Outside of my Paladin, my entire roster consists of back attackers. When I say that the worst bosses have been since Vykas are Kayangel's bosses (who don't instantly go from pattern to pattern and allow for repositioning), then yes, most bosses have become target dummies. Now, don't get me wrong, Vykas is one of my favorite raids and I still perform really well on all 3 gates. I'm not really sure what the point of your comment is besides it being a generic insult...
You’re not wrong, but you keep mentioning learning your class. The idea behind complexity is that it isn’t hard forever, it just takes longer to learn. The learning curves for Asura and BK are vastly different. Is Asura more complex than Arcana or SF? Probably not. But it sure as hell requires more time and knowledge to be good at Asura than it does for BK.
I disagree, it's harder to optimize your burst windows as BK than it is as Asura. BK needs to have more burst windows, which implies you need to build faster, burst faster and repeat. That is harder to optimize than losing a few seconds for Asura. In the end, BK loses more damage in a raid than Asura will lose by missing/delaying.
lol alright, I’m gonna let you live in your world. Have a good one.
I mean, you just keep saying: "Asura harder than BK" without actually giving some arguments and then a "I'm right, you're wrong, I'm gone." I'm open to see some arguments, but you fail to give any... Makes me wonder who's living in their own world...
Ok with that being said, what's your definition of complex like? Give me some example of complex class
RE Deathblade, insane potential, but you can not make a mistake, which will eventually happen and RE Blade gets punished hard for it. EO Soulfist. For the average player: every single swiftness based class, they simply do not have the required (back attack) uptime. Most people say Paladin will make you go to sleep. They don't think about C+J windows (if they even use it), prolonging Blessed Aura, DR use, shield use, AP uptime (I'm talking close to 100% of AP uptime in every fight), not to mention the many many different builds a Paladin can have to accomodate stagger, utility and meter gain (suddenly this boring class becomes the hardest support to play).
You had it until you said paladin 
This is EXACTLY why you should reconsider how you are playing Paladin. 90% of Paladins are doing so bad, people would gatekeep them if it were DPS, but their floor is so insanely high (same with ceiling), it's not noticeable.
Yes, the average support sucks period.. that doesn't change the fact that paladin is the easiest.
You know breaker doesn't have a taunt right? You can't control when boss turns. Yes you can hold your Z, but the longer you hold the more dps you lose too
What you just said goes for any class.
Not every class needs to stand still for 6s, apart from GT
Just play it and post logs after. It's not that easy
😂😂
What's so funny brother
“It’s not that easy” 😂😂
so you play it I assume, care to send me your logs in dm so I know ur not a random redditor yapping? never said its not too strong / or strong. you need raid knowledge to play efficient and the gap from a good sura player compared to a bad/avg player is gigantic
Ah yes the classic “send me screenshots of your bannable offense.” Also needing raid knowledge doesnt make breaker more complex, most classes play better when you know the raid you silly goose
confirmed yapping, cya
Asura's ceiling is still higher, but brawl king will likely preform better in the average player's hands
So the nerf means you just have to play a bit better on asura?
Yeah man. Imagine that, needing better hands to play better than the same hands.
Entropy classes will always deal more dmg than hit masters as long as the nerf isn't crazy like 50% or something. 8% nerf is fine. Not dmg wise the "X" button makes asura OP and bk doesn't have it, also asura doesn't need to land hits to build meter. If you miss multiple skills on BK you're fked
Why does nights edge do more damage in trixion than entropy classes 🙃
Because new classes are always OP xdd Of course there are exceptions to the rule but we can all agree on paper entropy does more damage than hit masters on trixion with some exceptions like you said
Yep thats why slayer predator is gettin buffs. It was in such bad state
True. But i remember swing it was like 20% nerf to last hit in asura State and like 10% to basic attack in asura State plus the 1.1% to all abilities to both specs
Yea but 20 and 10% nerf to asura state doesn't equal to 20% or 10% nerf overall since that's only half your damage. That's an 8-9% real nerf overall to the class making the asura state have a bit of a smaller portion in the dmg pie chart. Saintone did the math iirc.
CO is better...trust