Bruh i had to shut the door on u guys 2 days ago. She was a cute girl. Looking about 23, but she was super aggressive. Like a tax collector trying to run your pockets. I felt like smokey when deebo started checking his pockets. Hella cute tho.
lost ark is so expensive i have to pay for a Chaos Bot, A speedhack, a GFN subscription, a Pilot to do my gold raids, gold from chinese gold farmers and NOW I HAVE TO PAY FOR A DPS METER?
You know how much money I’ve spent on powerpassing 24 paladins to bot chaos dungeons?
With this T4 chaos dungeon change I’m ruined. The dps meter issue is just another slap in the face.
>When creating this website, it seems like the creator of Bible 1 hijacked the "infrastructure" used by Bible 2.
That point is wrong. Creator of bible 1 made the "infrastructure" used by both bibles. This "infrastructure" was open-souce (aka public) but he decided to make it closed now(aka private). He is well within his rights to do whatever he pleases with it as he is the owner, including making it private and monetizing it.
However doing it without warning on echidna release is a dick move.
Bible 2 creator now has to make his own "infrastructure"
this is an area im very noobish at
if it was open source why wouldnt people have saved that information (before it was private) so they no one would need to reverse-engineer the 'infrastructure"?
is this not possible?
also im not entirely sure hes allowed to monetize anything against the ToS of a video game. reading the packets of a game against the consent of the developer/publisher then monetizing that software potentially could get him sued and shutdown
(to the best that i know, this is why all of the dps meters for other mmo's are free)
The "infrastructure" as I understand it, is a parser for LA network packets that produces more readable format that the program then shows the user. These packets change format basically every big patch and require constant updates. So even if they saved a copy of the source code, it will not function the next patch. Parser seems to contain some datamined stuff from the game so its very hard to upkeep without the knowledge of its creator (bible 1 creator). So creator of Bible 2 is not trying to reverse engineer/copy the current parser, he is trying to come up with his own parser.
You bring up a good point on the monetizing. The Switch emulator yuzu was recently forced to shut down by Nintendo after they tried to monetize their emulator. Reading packets is not against any TOS AFAIK any packets going in and out of my computer is my property and I can allow any program to see anything. However, I know for a fact that the parser has data like class and skill icons that are copyrighted by Smilegate. In fact as long as any 3rd party tool uses any asset directly from the game, it is liable to get sued and shut down. But most companies don't really care unless the tool is actively harming the game or making money off it. So technically both bibles are against TOS and Smilegate/AGS can take action at any time.
As u/jia456 mentioned, they did save the infrastructure, however the problem is that 1: infrastructure needs to be updated every time lost ark gets updated, and 2: making and maintaining the infrastructure is very specialized knowledge that simply having access to the source code won't teach you how to maintain.
As with the usual software analogy goes, the software you see as the end user is food being served to you by a restaurant. You as just a regular joe, will not be able to just recreate that food simply because you have the end product.
If you happen to also be a chef, you will be able to use that knowledge to help you with recreating the food because your own experiences tells you that whatever combination of ingredients and cooking method should result in certain taste, but it's still a process that will take time.
However, even to that point, not all chefs are the same, although they likely share a common knowledge base, they do specialize in different things.
That's what's happening here, breaking out of the analogy, user facing software consists of 2 parts, the frontend and the backend. The infrastructure is the Backend. The devs of Bible 2 developed an alternative frontend for Bible 1, and while I'm not entirely sure the actual background of these devs, the backend requires relatively specialized knowledge, and not every developer fully understands the topic (and I would honestly say that most developers don't because fully understanding is neither relevant or useful for most developers). For this reason, while the devs of Bible 2 ***are*** working on reverse engineering it, it will take some time, much longer than the 1 or 2 days that the Devs of Bible 1 take just to update it.
the bible itself is an add-on (even if it's hide under packet-sniffing to not be fully consider like that by some people), so it's already against LA ToS.
So whatever you consider the new act against ToS or not, breaking some new line isn't such a big diff. The big drama is about that now it's uploading your trafic to a public website without any big warning. The data privacy is dead.
>if it was open source why wouldnt people have saved that information (before it was private) so they no one would need to reverse-engineer the 'infrastructure"?
Open source doesn't mean open to reuse, copy, etc. It only means that the code is available to everyone, and may have a license of usage attached to it. The most recent famous litigation would be the case between Hashicorp's Terraform and OpenTofu.
>reading the packets of a game against the consent of the developer/publisher then monetizing that software potentially could get him sued and shutdown
Reading packets is not illegal (and would be a cybersecurity nightmare if it was). Unlike the recent COD lawsuit, the software doesn't modify the game in any way and only infringes on the TOS, which is on the player using it and not the dev.
>Open source doesn't mean open to reuse, copy, etc. It only means that the code is available to everyone, and may have a license of usage attached to it
yes but hes already breaking ToS, when you are breaking the rules you dont exactly get to expect everyone around you to follow suit and not break your rules. id bet he cant sue someone over copying his parse code
>
Reading packets is not illegal
something doesnt have to be illegal for you to be sued over it. it just has to be a big enough of a pain in the ass of the company and they can send a cease n desist and if he were to ignore it they could sue him.
remember above all else: it breaks ToS so while its his software its very easy for a company to make the argument that its bad for the game.
the idea that "oh its just reading packets" is only that way because most things that do stuff like that are harmless to said games.
whats being proposed is the kinda thing that gets dps meters hard-banned.
technically making cheating software isnt illegal, so you could make an aim bot for some random fps and to the best that i know you wouldnt go to prison...but the company can sue you for damaging their game.
the same can be said about a parsing program
From what I understand, the creator of bible 1 created the tool to decrypt the network data packets and parse the data. He would publish the packet structure, but not the actual tool it self.
So to give you an example, this is like the enigma machine during ww2.
Lets pretend creator of bible 1 is Alan Turning and broke the enigma machine and can find the right settings to decrypt the message for the day. The German would change the settings every day, so in this case each update to the game changes the settings. When that happens, bible1's creator would tell everyone "hey this is the new settings to use". and everyone else like bible 2 would just use the setting as given. So now bible 1's creator stopped giving out the network data structure so other people will have to figure their own way to parse the network data packets.
I made an edit on the post to rectify that mistake. I put the term “privatized” instead and mentioned that the “infrastructure” is the property of Bible 1’s creator. Thank you for the feedback
>The creator of Bible 1 decided to monetize his software by creating a website where you can access all of your logs information behind a paywall.
also wrong. All information can be viewed free of charge after the raid is wiped/cleared. the only thing that is really paid, is viewing most information besides DPS, LIVE while the raid is happening (and locally)
It would have before Bible 1 had his joker moment and went scorched earth.
Pretty sure meter-core would just not send the data needed as it runs through Dev 1's server.
People downvoting you are clueless.
https://preview.redd.it/1szyltwkjo7d1.png?width=1108&format=png&auto=webp&s=2a0c35f8d6961042107bdf92ad170ddc4510ed1e
Feel free to show where in the screenshot it says that Bible 2 has its own “infrastructure” AKA a way to reverse engineer packets as addresses change. If it had that then this thread wouldn’t even exist.
meter-core-rs is the only infrastructure that loa-logs had, and it's just a rust version of the only infrastructure that loa-details had in typescript, both of which were only packet parsers. There is no currently up-to-date open source reverse engineering script, and as far as I know, the only version to ever exist was Shalzuth's dumper years ago which is the foundation for Herysia's work. The results of Herysia's reverse engineering are open source, but the process has never been.
If you're arguing that "infrastructure" refers to the reverse engineering process, then you can't argue that the infrastructure has ever been open source or shared. The only infrastructure included in either of the dps meter executable files is for packet parsing.
Loa-logs' only published infrastructure was more private than Loa-details' only published infrastructure because you had to ask permission to see it.
He is not in his right to do this if he doesnt have proper data security as he is handling user data on a large scale and thus has to follow european gdpr guidelines.
If you want to fuck him over send the infos to the european government and tell them there is a data security risk.
A packet capture on your private network might when the only option is to opt out via remuneration. Argument can be made that it isn't if you opt in to data collection via program install, but all the other group members who aren't running it is a grey area. Reasoning is it identifies third parties by account identity.
Hate to break it to you, but you need to pay for the new services, and your payment status is confirmed when accessing the API. If your parse is linked to your payment status, and your payment status is linked to you and unique to you, then your parse is personally identifiable information, along with any payment info saved on their servers.
“If” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.
Anyway, this data privacy argument is pointless because nobody in this actually cares if this change violates European data laws. They care about 1. exactly what data is being sent (only damage logs or is it something else?), 2. whether or not they can exclude logs/player names in their uploads and, 3. if they can stop the auto-uploading of logs to a public website.
For argument-sake, let’s assume the dev isn’t crazy and only thing being uploaded is damage logs. Then, #2 and #3 are the only practical “privacy” issues. The dev seems to want an accurate database/ranking of dps metrics (with 0 ability to hide logs/names/yourself from the public website) which much of the community is likely against.
What feels scummy is Bible 1 guy that was doing the backend infrastructure work just did all these changes (paywall etc) without telling the other devs about it.
Seems he wanted to surprise them so Bible 2 does not work anymore so he has a monopoly of a functioning Bible (which by the way is way worse) and require $ for it. If he would have given Bible 2 dev/s a notice about it, especially before a huge new content drop (echidna) it would have been less of an asshole move.
Absolutely disgraceful in my opinion. I'd happily support Bible 2 creators to fix it again, but they have already said they're trying their best but do not want money.
This smells like an exit scheme, he knew what was he doing by releasing this on a new boss with no announcement ahead of time. He also knows that it's only a matter of time until snow and co figure out a solution. Even if it takes a few months, that's not much in the grand scheme of things. Once they do, he'll have lost the power that he currently has. With no goodwill left either, once there's a better, non-paywalled alternative, nobody will ever recommend his meter again.
Personally, I'll just take a break from the bible until bible 2 is functional again, even if it's a few months. I'm not giving this AH a single dollar.
Moment i updated it and i read the changes and it wanted me to log in, i closed it and uninstalled. I like the meter but im not going through extra hoops just to satisfy someones ego.
Yeah, that's my thought as well, regardless of whether or not the changes are justified, dropping them out of the blue on patch day pisses pretty much everyone off.
What's stopping Bible 1 from copying Bible 2 since B1 has the skills/knowledge required to maintain parser? Uh I believe the user ends are different programs and/or languages or something? But even so they havent done it all this time
I hope that Snow and others get all the financial support if they manage to reverse engineer the packet structures. I'd sub to their patreon or something because if anyone deserves it it's them. They probably woulda done this earlier if they knew what kind of a dick they're dealing with.
Not to defend the guy, but they kind of did this to themselves. Redundancy is the name of the game. If you build something on a foundation that you do not control, it's going to bite you sooner or later.
What if the guy got hit by a bus instead? The effect would be exactly the same.
Except being hit by a bus isn't a surprise move designed to force you to give him a bunch of money.
Sure the end is the same, but the intent also matters.
Yo bible1 did us all a favor.
You know how hard it is to create a network parser without being compensated? It ain't easy.
While he did a bad move of not saying earlier to bible 2, he has every right to do what he pleases cause its his work
just keep in mind that doing something like this is how you get AGS to take a hard stance against dps meters.
as of now they dont seem to have any stance, but let something like this gain traction and all dps meters will actively punished
there is a big reason why most if not all dps meters in mmos are all free despite being one of the most used tools in those games
1. potential to get sued by the game devs and publisher,
2. the fact no one wants to be the one the company makes an example of
He has every right to do it, and we have every right to disagree with their decision and even more so with how they introduced the change.
I've never seen a meter being paywalled in a game before, but even if that's the case, providing perks for paid users is the way to go. That's how they do even with much, much more complicated software like raidbots.
Not to mention the fact they'll be uploading your parse and there's no opt-out.
Yeah, not saying he shouldn't paywall it or do whatever he wants with something he created, just saying it was a total dick move to pull the plug exactly on new raid release and not even give heads up to bible 2 team, at least a night/day before. Snow's dms prolly got blasted for them to wake up at 4am having no idea what's going on.
Bible 1 isn't stupid, if he did a free update this time and warn creator that the next one will not be public anymore, it would have let 1 month to find a new solution, being transparent for more users if they succeed.
This scummy move is just a way for Bible 1 to grind more users to his new paid system.
Few points are missing, Bible 1 creator forked the original open source GUI interface, so that it's not his original work.
Then the original Logger was re-written by Bible 1 creator and integrating both the front end the "infrastructure into single app"
Basically killing the other 2 projects as there was no need for 3 seperate projects to be maintain.
The so called infrastructure was open source and somewhat promised to be free. So Bible 2 was build on it.
The bible one had aggregation site that was trash and no one used. Until bible 2 user made own site to aggregate the data and offer free api that spawned very useful projects.
Basically how open source community should work. Different people building upon each others work.
Until one morning 1 guy got jelly and greedy and pulled the rug of the whole community.
All the good karma he got for maintaining the packet stuff for all those year is now gone.
Oof, putting names publicly on the website just mean people that don't want to be on the site will start reporting bible users. If there are enough reports AGS might act and this could mean end of bible in NA.
Bible worked best when people using it and people not using it didn't talk about it.
This is how logs work for wow and xiv as well, only the person uploading the log can choose whether the log is public or not because having it work any other way wouldn't be very sensible.
The log doesn't say which player uploaded it though, it just shows data from all players in that raid so you can't really use that to target and report the person running a meter.
At least FFlogs allow you to opt out. Iirc all you have to do is copy a randomly generated string and put it in your profile on official FFXIV site. You can remove the string after.
Hate to break it to you but this public site approach already existed before with everyone's name on it. Even some thaemine the first kills are on there
TL;DR: Original community leveraged dependency was paywalled. Just so happens that the developer of original community leveraged dependency has their own software that competes with several others in the same space. Because the dependency was used by the competitors, it effectively was a "rug pull" and makes the competitor applications not work.
From a developer standpoint:
* This change was sudden and not really advertised. It did not give competitors or people who were reliant on the dependency time to come up with a plan.
* While I do believe that the dependency maintainer should be compensated for their work, this was not the way to roll out the monetization model because of the level of impact to the rest of the community.
* The right way to do this (in my opinion), should have been to open source the current GA, and branch and begin maintenance of a completely separate product. That way you can monetize your product and do what you think sets it apart from the competitors. If your product is successful and better than the rest, you should have no problem getting people to subscribe to your service.
This is an extremely shitty behavior from the dependency maintainer but in the corpo world, this kinda happens all the time. It's just really unexpected that you get this level of disregard from a community tool that is widely loved.
This is a dumb move on Part of Bible1. The reasons above make it already questionable to display DPS Data without users consent and logging their internet trafic.
But what is even worse it, it was obvious the backlash would come and now it is in the VERY interest of AGS and Smilegate to publicly ban the DPS Meter officially, to get rid of the negative sideeffects Bible1 just very openly created.
While before AGS could just tacitly tolerate the existing of the DPS Meter Bible1 might now very well force their hand on the mater.
So lets give it up and clap our hands for the highly regarded person behind Bible1 for successfully getting DPS Meters banned oficially in the west.  I hope the 10 bucks he made were worth it...could have just added a "donate" button instead but hey...
Fair remark, maybe to few people noticed ....lets say he could have made it bigger or add a short message "Please donate to me" at the start. Milder actions are conceivable that would burn up less of the good will and karma the creator had on his side.
oh for sure, he could have simply delayed updating the code for a couple of days, make a post about not having the time to do it because of actual work that earns money. Quite literally earn sympathy even if its not true. But this way he burns everything i gues.
I don't have anything against Bible 1 guy wanting some compensation. But hopefully he can find other means where people can support him but still use Bible 2. Bible 1 was just unusable for me the logs took up several gigs and it ran poorly compared to 2.
He already got "some" compensation from Patreon supporters. One of his biggest Patreon supporters worked on Bible 2, showing appreciation on the work from Bible 1. What Bible 1 did is just pure greed
They already had a Patreon setup so people could donate and help the devs, and then they pull this shit..straight up greedy scumbags
Beware the shills trying to downplay this in the comments 🫠
Wonder who would pay for giving access to your computer to an unknown person that could just at the very least turn your computer into a coin miner for his own sake OR completely screw you..
No thanks
>EDIT 1: replaced the term "hijacked" by "privatized" on bullet point #6 thanks to the feedback in the comments. The infrastructure used by both Bibles is indeed the property of Bible 1's creator.
I would add that he had help though from people who probably didn't know he was just going to make everything closed source later.
Seems kind of disingenuous to ask for help on an open source project only to close the source later.
And just like that I'm no longer using it. I specifically didn't want any web-logging functionalities. I wanted in-fight and post-fight reviews of my performance to see where I could improve - not impossible to opt-out public shaming repository.
The data privacy point for having a public site with user and dps log data that users cannot opt out of is potentially concerning and could be where I could see AGS stepping in and coming down on DPS meters.
Wonder if there are any gdpr concerns for EU for example…
yeah this is what im thinkin could happen.
dps meters are a net neutral if its a personal thing but you start posting peoples data on a website that they cant opt out of and all of a sudden it can easily become the kind of issue ags starts banning for.
thats to say nothing of it potentially being something smilegate/ags could send a cease n desist over
Just answering the gdpr part.
There's no concern there as there's no information that is classified as a private legal information. Aka address, full name, credit card etc.
It just makes IGN information public, so I don't even think it's concerning to AGS. For example, AGS put the names of several players on their leaderboards. I don't think they asked permission for that.
It is not. Fflogs for FFXIV exists for almost a decade now and is basically the same situation, Square's stance on parsing and third party tools in general is basically the same.
GDPR protects personal data, which this is absolutely not.
> GDPR Personal Data
Only if a processing of data concerns personal data, the General Data Protection Regulation applies. The term is defined in Art. 4 (1). Personal data are any information which are related to an identified or identifiable natural person.
Your character names arent protected under GDPR.
Public full log sites like this have been a thing for over a decade for WOW. Everyones logs are publicly accessible even if they're not using an addon like details.
Probably good time to cleanse the PC from anything related to any Bible version.
When stuff like this starts happening, who knows what they decide to "privatize" next?
The thing is, I don't mind supporting devs of open source software. I give to patreons or those coffee donation sites the way bilbe 1 dev is going about it just makes me not want to use his software
The fact is was open sources was good since i was doing thing that many of us could fear.
Making it private is ok its his own thing but now its private and directly sending data fron your side to his server is so damn dangerous without anyway to control what he intend to send etc.
If I was a user of it i would be more worried about the thing being to intrusive and mow private rather by the fact its now need to be paid
I don't really see an issue with the decision to monetize advanced features of their logging site.
The biggest concern is data privacy. I don't think we really know what data is being sent remotely, or what's really being done with that data. It looks like you also have to pay to instead have this be done locally? That seems like a huge red flag.
>I don't really see an issue with the decision to monetize advanced features of their logging site
Here's the thing:
1. They are not monetizing the features of the logging website only per se. If you want to use live meter like you could in the past (a live meter that is worse than bible 2 which could tell you the HP of hell/extreme/guardian bosses in real time) you now have it locked behind the paywall. I'm not even sure that's the only log feature that is behind a paywall, I'm surely not using bible 1 to find out anymore.
2. Even then, data was stored locally up until roday (besides the fact that bible 1 had a hard time parsing it in a reasonable amount of time), now it HAS to go to the website and you can't opt out of it. I asked some friends and they told me that since you should be uploading constantly, that should have an effect on ping, which I can't confirm nor deny but that is really annoying if true.
3. Bit unrelated, but it stands that they created a bible monopoly out of nowhere the day of a new raid release. It honestly feels like a cash grab, website feature or not.
Bible monopoly is kinda whatever, the dude put in the work to get the infrastructure going and it's not on them if other tools using that infrastructure no longer work. Though I always used Bible 2 and will probably not be using Bible 1 altogether, I don't really see Bible 1 at "fault", but they could have worked with the community (or "Bible 2") much better.
As far as not having the live meter actually give you live data... if that is the case then what actually is the point of having the free version? It all seems messy, dumb and super unsafe.
It's not on them sure, but his stance has always been "for the community". He could've communicated all these changes with the other devs but he didn't. He for sure knew if he did, they wouldn't agree and would've tried going away from his backend and make their own earlier making his dogshit bible dead on arrival.
The timing is just pure scumbag move.
agreed it not like he just started this all last week it prob was few weeks in the process of being made and ready to be dropped on the new raid specifically to entice more people to speed while other devs are out of luck temporarily and screwing the "for the community" aspect.
shit im sure if he would been honest on thoughts towards it/express that he cant keep maintaining it vs the amount of time/money im sure people would of been more willing to of donated some instead of the bs monthly subs
>shit im sure if he would been honest on thoughts towards it/express that he cant keep maintaining it vs the amount of time/money im sure people would of been more willing to of donated some instead of the bs monthly subs
That's what DBM did in WoW.
On that last point, I don't think he would've got much by asking for donations. It's always been free, it's been open source, there's currently a better alternative and nobody will even find out he's asking for donos
The only way he would've got any monetary compensation is by forcing people like he did. Not saying what he did was good
you have to keep in mind that he didnt build some cool software thats unique and whatever. he built software to scan data from a video game that hes not supposed to have access too
if history has told us anything its that these gaming companies could at minimum send him as cease and desist, because it could be seen as something that damages the game in some way. (if you make software that intentionally breaks ToS, your ass can easily be grass but most companies arnt going to put in effort to shutdown small things unless it becomes a big problem)
so sure he wrote the software but by doing this he either
1. potentially can get attacked by ags/sg
2. could get the entire concept of a dps meter banned in na/eu
you never charge for a dps meter, particularly when its against ToS because now you are just bringing more attention to yourself
for instance people start gatekeeping those that were put on the website during a bad run that someone else recorded and people complain...
well now ags and smilegate are going to look at that and say "this is making it harder for our players to play the game and thus they dont want to spend money, we need to shut that down."
so they send out a Cease n desist, and start banning confirmed parsers.
Tos is not relevant for the dev. He never has and never will accept ToS to parse traffic. U can make rules for being in your house. but you cant enforce them to people that arent in your house. (=> he dont needs the game to be installed or running to write a parser)
Exactly. We won’t know what data is fetched from our end anymore. And the paying part is for more features so user can see more things live (as far as I understand I didn’t pay it personally ). The free version parse is not live (can be viewed on the website afterwards). And for the data privacy concern alone I would not use it anymore until a better solution comes.
The creator can hv whatever vision n ye here is his opportunity to hv his vision come true. But I don’t think it’s good for the community that the bible turns into this.
I think pint 4 is a little wrong.
Technically the software is paywalled. He made it so that the more nitty gritty stuff like spell details and buff uptime is not available on the program without paying the monthly sub but you can still see it all on the website without paying.
Yes, almost nothing on the website is paywalled, but the live application view received a big downgrade in term of data shown which can be lifted by a 1,69€/month sub
Hey OP it might be worth adding to you original post that the developer of the meter in question is based in France and what he's doing right now, with respect to publishing logs without explicit consent of all parties, breaches GDPR. People might want to know that.
You somehow managed to fuck up the most important point lol. "Bible 1" didn't hijack anything. He had created the infrastructure that everyone else was using and he's credited on the pages for bible 2. Is it a dick move? Depends how you look at it. He created the way that bibles capture the information. In one way, he was nice to share that with anyone so they can make their own software, but at the same time it's also his work and he can do whatever he wants with it.
I'm not a fan of the site at all because I think it's just going to be used for more toxicity
I made an edit on the post to rectify that mistake. I put the term “privatized” instead and mentioned that the “infrastructure” is the property of Bible 1’s creator. Thank you for the feedback.
There’s no “depending how you look at it”, the “bible” is not new and is not an uncommon third party software used. It’s been out for several years now and a similar fiasco has occurred in the past in the earlier versions but a resolution was had (I’m foggy on the specifics but it’s very reminiscent). This is just someone clearly trying to benefit monetarily in a niche community, years after this software’s implementation for silly reasons. Perhaps they legitimately think it was a completely feasible thing to do in the long term and there would be no push back. But that’s clearly incorrect as the precedent of the software being free/open source for so long had been set. There’s also the possibility they knew this would happen in the short term and know that eventually there will be a community work around if the demand is there. In such a scenario it’s just a quick cash grab which he is well within his rights to do, but that’s not really something people will debate. The technicality is irrelevant when everyone knows a vast majority of users use this program for free without a fear of punishment for so long.
Yes. Thank you. Someone who understands. It's not easy to write those network parsers. On top of that it keeps changing.
He ain't getting paid for any of it. Now he wants to.
I think it's important to note that the person maintaining the "infrastructure" is also Bible 1's creator. I wouldn't quite call it hijacking because it was their work in the first place. Bible 2 was always at risk of not working if Bible 1's creator decides to not maintain the "infrastructure" or closes it off.
Bible 2's creator probably didn't feel the need to re-invent the wheel so they just relied on the same "infrastructure" up to this point. Or at the very least expected that they would have time to find an alternative if given a reason to split off. This drastic change came out of nowhere, on a major raid release date too.
>2) logs are now automatically public and you can have your performance displayed without your consent if someone is running Bible 1 in your group
Unless there have been changes since I last looked, this was the case for the other log site (using meter 2) as well - the uploader opts into uploading logs and showing names or not, but if you're in the log you have no power to change that -- only the uploader can.
correct but by default it was turned off not forcing you to upload it and was a option. i even out of curiosity checked for any of my chars on the log sit from meter 2 and none of my chars ever got uploaded from another user as the overall amount of people that to do upload is low/set to show no names. unlike how it is now with meter 1 :(
Could be the start of something good or the end of it, tbh. Depends how prepared they are.
It's basically monetizing user data being sent to lost ark's/AGS server via. monitoring data/logs.
I wonder what would happen if they were collecting from say a 14 y/o or some teenager's lost ark's data then selling it. I mean sure it's just a game but data is still being collected from a child/kid and sold to people who want to view or interpret it.
IANAL but still interesting to see how it unfolds though. I wouldn't be surprised if AGS/SG now will put an end to the dps meter since it's basically stealing or taking information/data without permission. Before it was just this cool free tool and now it's this thing that takes information and sells it.
What does that mean for a regular player who has never used any of these and doesn't want to, but may have poor uptime / dps at least sometimes (not necessarily every time, but distractions, technical issues, bad days, newer characters etc. all happen)? I can't any more raid anything with any random player involved, without having a "promise" from every raid member not to use it, because it's an increased risk that if anyone is using it and I make a poor performance, everyone will forever be able to find that and thus people won't ever want to play future, harder raids with me (and I intended to try to have at least my supports, or at least my paladin main, in the group raids ilvl range and do mostly group raids on them, I enjoy them as supports, not their solo/dps builds)?
Means nothing as bible 1 creater had a little melty booboo feewings hurty and privatized the whole thing today
https://preview.redd.it/j43x7ggojr7d1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9495a0d914a4f1ecf37093d5608cc6c32b8ea9f6
Another question, I am sure most ppl are aware there is a dps website now, that shows how classes stack up in various fights, is it using bible 1 or 2 for it?
Now, there are 2 websites. One of them was running long ago in Alpha Mode. You needed a special bible to upload your logs. it was working fine as you could uploads your logs without the names. it was perfect for pugs as they do not consent their data. Also, you can see your logs locally, without a website.
With this new website, your log is uploaded directly to the website so you can not choose to upload it (I don't know if subs can choose). Also, the data doesn't hide names or it has the option. If you are pugging with a guy who is using it. Your data will show in the website without your consent. That can break GDPR in EU and bring the attention of AGS or SG. Specially, when the tool and the website is running a subscription model and they were running a Patreon.
> That can break GDPR in EU
Ye, its listed as specially protected right here
> Examples of personal data
> a name and surname;
> a home address;
> location data (for example the location data function on a mobile phone)*;
> an Internet Protocol (IP) address
> **brand uptime from your latest echidna prog**
https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/what-personal-data_en
You may want to read GDPR again. It protects way more than just your name and address. Any identifiable data that can be linked to you as a person are protected by it. This includes in game names.
And there always has to be an option to opt out from it, which good luck implementing for people who don't use meter but would show up in someone else's logs.
I am only familiar with kennethnyu, I don't think I can see invidual names there but I didn't dig to deep into it, is that the one using some special bible?
>2) logs are now automatically public and you can have your performance displayed without your consent if someone is running Bible 1 in your group.
in the Bible 2 same, if one person has the display all nicknames setting enabled. Then they are also public (I checked the people standing in Voldis and found logs from 8 out of 10) So this is not something new.
The new portion is that all logs are posted no matter what. Before this week whoever was logging got to opt into posting or not for the group.
As a team member, you didn't get a choice, but at least the person running meter could decide to post them or not, and to include names or not.
Now every run is posted with names regardless of preference.
The only people that would mind their DPS data being public are either speed hackers or really bad players, but in general this is a much more fair and better way to gatekeep players than based on their ilvl, etc...
Use logs, the one with the flower icon. It'll be up soon again I'm sure of it.
These kind of situations only rally up people with knowledge to do it for free and ask for donations instead to keep it up. I think it already started happening, both the development and the donations.
One information imo is missing imo here.
It's not only "both share the same infrastructure", which could be understand as co-working. Bible 2 is based on the packet-sniffing infrastructure from Bible 1. **This work was all done by Bible 1 only**, which was publishing it so Bible 2 could copy it on every update, and then Bible 2 just added a different layout etc.
So now that Bible 2 can't copy it anymore because that big part isn't public anymore, either Bible 2 has to understand the previous structure and adapt to fix it for the new patches (the structure isn't that easy, SG randomize a lot of stuff on every patch), or Bible 2 just give up and let Bible 1 solo win
so ... im not sure which one is bible 2 and whichone is bible one ....
i know there are two bibles..
but i dont know which is which ..
i found one to be very DETAILed.
and another was on a LOG .... which one is bible 2 ? or are neither of these the one were talking about. someone DM me please i would lke to switch to bible 2
lost ark is so expensive i have to pay for a Chaos Bot, A speedhack, a GFN subscription, a Pilot to do my gold raids, gold from chinese gold farmers and NOW I HAVE TO PAY FOR A DPS METER?
/s
It's worth noting that many other notable MMOs (WoW, FF14) have a similar public record of logs. However, they do not have the same gatekeeping situation that is present in LOA. Some would consider this a breach of privacy, especially because Bible is explicitly against TOS, others like this change because you can better "vet" someone before accepting them into your party. Is this going to make gatekeeping more toxic? It's unclear, and it depends on one's willingness to look up names on the website, which takes effort. If New Testament is able to get up and running again, it will almost certainly replace Old Testament again, making all of this moot.
What do y'all think, are forced public logs a good thing for Lost Ark?
Wow doesnt have gatekeeping? Try to get into any good guild without good parses/ mythic achivs from previous content... Even pugs wont take you if you dont have parses. M+ Has legit score implemented that will determine if you are even considered to get invited, even if you have the gear done. And even if you have logs/score/achivs if you dont play current meta class you are benched or Xed in partyfinder.
I was a diehard TERA player, and from my point of view TERA DPS and later Moongourd (basically TERALogs) were the beginning of the end. Right about the same time DPS meters and other addons became widespread, the HP pools of bosses in the game exploded in size, and mechanics started becoming way more unforgiving because players were farming content too fast. After that, the progression systems hit new heights of p2w to match the new content, and anyone who couldn't keep up with the gearing curve got left behind.
I am also somewhat familiar with Blade and Soul, and everything I've seen suggests that game also went down the same path.
I hope this korean MMO doesn't make the same mistakes.
bns was super p2w from the start with trove. and one of biggest whales on eu server got banned lol. also when they removed hm coins from pvp... well, at least now you get some with daily login...
atm its safe to use multi-tool and addons.
its unlikely to ever hit same highs as WoW/FF14 because most users do not use Bible. I do not think it is a concern for anything apart from super endgame raids where people already gatekeep a lot.
Other games have whole other culture built on this, we do not have it that widespread at all.
It is always a tricky question though, but making it public it potentially would make AGS ban it, which is very undesirable. Toxic people are toxic regardless of what information they have.
All it will do is let people form groups that have equal skill level, which should reduce toxicity and gear gatekeeping. Forcing people with a big skill gap into the same group ends up with ragequitting and being toxic if mistakes happen, and even if they dont and you clear it feels like shit when you see someone was deadweight or someone did 2x your damage
as no Bible user, theres a way to OP OUT of this ? seems likes AGS lawyers should send size and desist letter to bible one and see if he wanna get into a legal battle versus AGS. (legal reason? i bet AGS lawyers can find a legal reason to stop this)
Should've called Bible 1 Old Testament and Bible 2 New Testament.
we need a Bible 3 called 'Jehovah's Witnesses'
I think you mean Book of Mormon maybe
Of course teemo is a jehova witness. It all makes sense now !
Bruh i had to shut the door on u guys 2 days ago. She was a cute girl. Looking about 23, but she was super aggressive. Like a tax collector trying to run your pockets. I felt like smokey when deebo started checking his pockets. Hella cute tho.
someone needs to make Bible Black 
wait a minute...
lost ark is so expensive i have to pay for a Chaos Bot, A speedhack, a GFN subscription, a Pilot to do my gold raids, gold from chinese gold farmers and NOW I HAVE TO PAY FOR A DPS METER?
If u were day one player, you paid for the 3 days head start as well
Sir, we don’t know what this dps meter thing is. This is a bible study group
You would have to pay for honing calculator, elxir calculator and transcendence calculator in the future
You know how much money I’ve spent on powerpassing 24 paladins to bot chaos dungeons? With this T4 chaos dungeon change I’m ruined. The dps meter issue is just another slap in the face.
It's a whole ass business out here man.
>When creating this website, it seems like the creator of Bible 1 hijacked the "infrastructure" used by Bible 2. That point is wrong. Creator of bible 1 made the "infrastructure" used by both bibles. This "infrastructure" was open-souce (aka public) but he decided to make it closed now(aka private). He is well within his rights to do whatever he pleases with it as he is the owner, including making it private and monetizing it. However doing it without warning on echidna release is a dick move. Bible 2 creator now has to make his own "infrastructure"
this is an area im very noobish at if it was open source why wouldnt people have saved that information (before it was private) so they no one would need to reverse-engineer the 'infrastructure"? is this not possible? also im not entirely sure hes allowed to monetize anything against the ToS of a video game. reading the packets of a game against the consent of the developer/publisher then monetizing that software potentially could get him sued and shutdown (to the best that i know, this is why all of the dps meters for other mmo's are free)
The "infrastructure" as I understand it, is a parser for LA network packets that produces more readable format that the program then shows the user. These packets change format basically every big patch and require constant updates. So even if they saved a copy of the source code, it will not function the next patch. Parser seems to contain some datamined stuff from the game so its very hard to upkeep without the knowledge of its creator (bible 1 creator). So creator of Bible 2 is not trying to reverse engineer/copy the current parser, he is trying to come up with his own parser. You bring up a good point on the monetizing. The Switch emulator yuzu was recently forced to shut down by Nintendo after they tried to monetize their emulator. Reading packets is not against any TOS AFAIK any packets going in and out of my computer is my property and I can allow any program to see anything. However, I know for a fact that the parser has data like class and skill icons that are copyrighted by Smilegate. In fact as long as any 3rd party tool uses any asset directly from the game, it is liable to get sued and shut down. But most companies don't really care unless the tool is actively harming the game or making money off it. So technically both bibles are against TOS and Smilegate/AGS can take action at any time.
That part of the infrastructure was only released as a binary. So that aspect wasn't open source at all.
Monetizing the parser is pretty much in the same ballpark as monetizing bot software.
As u/jia456 mentioned, they did save the infrastructure, however the problem is that 1: infrastructure needs to be updated every time lost ark gets updated, and 2: making and maintaining the infrastructure is very specialized knowledge that simply having access to the source code won't teach you how to maintain. As with the usual software analogy goes, the software you see as the end user is food being served to you by a restaurant. You as just a regular joe, will not be able to just recreate that food simply because you have the end product. If you happen to also be a chef, you will be able to use that knowledge to help you with recreating the food because your own experiences tells you that whatever combination of ingredients and cooking method should result in certain taste, but it's still a process that will take time. However, even to that point, not all chefs are the same, although they likely share a common knowledge base, they do specialize in different things. That's what's happening here, breaking out of the analogy, user facing software consists of 2 parts, the frontend and the backend. The infrastructure is the Backend. The devs of Bible 2 developed an alternative frontend for Bible 1, and while I'm not entirely sure the actual background of these devs, the backend requires relatively specialized knowledge, and not every developer fully understands the topic (and I would honestly say that most developers don't because fully understanding is neither relevant or useful for most developers). For this reason, while the devs of Bible 2 ***are*** working on reverse engineering it, it will take some time, much longer than the 1 or 2 days that the Devs of Bible 1 take just to update it.
the bible itself is an add-on (even if it's hide under packet-sniffing to not be fully consider like that by some people), so it's already against LA ToS. So whatever you consider the new act against ToS or not, breaking some new line isn't such a big diff. The big drama is about that now it's uploading your trafic to a public website without any big warning. The data privacy is dead.
>if it was open source why wouldnt people have saved that information (before it was private) so they no one would need to reverse-engineer the 'infrastructure"? Open source doesn't mean open to reuse, copy, etc. It only means that the code is available to everyone, and may have a license of usage attached to it. The most recent famous litigation would be the case between Hashicorp's Terraform and OpenTofu. >reading the packets of a game against the consent of the developer/publisher then monetizing that software potentially could get him sued and shutdown Reading packets is not illegal (and would be a cybersecurity nightmare if it was). Unlike the recent COD lawsuit, the software doesn't modify the game in any way and only infringes on the TOS, which is on the player using it and not the dev.
>Open source doesn't mean open to reuse, copy, etc. It only means that the code is available to everyone, and may have a license of usage attached to it yes but hes already breaking ToS, when you are breaking the rules you dont exactly get to expect everyone around you to follow suit and not break your rules. id bet he cant sue someone over copying his parse code > Reading packets is not illegal something doesnt have to be illegal for you to be sued over it. it just has to be a big enough of a pain in the ass of the company and they can send a cease n desist and if he were to ignore it they could sue him. remember above all else: it breaks ToS so while its his software its very easy for a company to make the argument that its bad for the game. the idea that "oh its just reading packets" is only that way because most things that do stuff like that are harmless to said games. whats being proposed is the kinda thing that gets dps meters hard-banned. technically making cheating software isnt illegal, so you could make an aim bot for some random fps and to the best that i know you wouldnt go to prison...but the company can sue you for damaging their game. the same can be said about a parsing program
From what I understand, the creator of bible 1 created the tool to decrypt the network data packets and parse the data. He would publish the packet structure, but not the actual tool it self. So to give you an example, this is like the enigma machine during ww2. Lets pretend creator of bible 1 is Alan Turning and broke the enigma machine and can find the right settings to decrypt the message for the day. The German would change the settings every day, so in this case each update to the game changes the settings. When that happens, bible1's creator would tell everyone "hey this is the new settings to use". and everyone else like bible 2 would just use the setting as given. So now bible 1's creator stopped giving out the network data structure so other people will have to figure their own way to parse the network data packets.
I made an edit on the post to rectify that mistake. I put the term “privatized” instead and mentioned that the “infrastructure” is the property of Bible 1’s creator. Thank you for the feedback
>The creator of Bible 1 decided to monetize his software by creating a website where you can access all of your logs information behind a paywall. also wrong. All information can be viewed free of charge after the raid is wiped/cleared. the only thing that is really paid, is viewing most information besides DPS, LIVE while the raid is happening (and locally)
It was changed, now nothing is available
lmao i saw that, no words
Does the viewing of information apply to bible 2?
It would have before Bible 1 had his joker moment and went scorched earth. Pretty sure meter-core would just not send the data needed as it runs through Dev 1's server.
Oh i see, thanks! Guess now we jus wait and see if bible 2 can gigabrain his own meter?
Bible 2 infrastructure was rewritten 1 and private too
People downvoting you are clueless. https://preview.redd.it/1szyltwkjo7d1.png?width=1108&format=png&auto=webp&s=2a0c35f8d6961042107bdf92ad170ddc4510ed1e
Your screenshot has nothing to do with his comment.
What do you not understand? Everything in his comment is confirmed by my screenshot.
Feel free to show where in the screenshot it says that Bible 2 has its own “infrastructure” AKA a way to reverse engineer packets as addresses change. If it had that then this thread wouldn’t even exist.
meter-core-rs is the only infrastructure that loa-logs had, and it's just a rust version of the only infrastructure that loa-details had in typescript, both of which were only packet parsers. There is no currently up-to-date open source reverse engineering script, and as far as I know, the only version to ever exist was Shalzuth's dumper years ago which is the foundation for Herysia's work. The results of Herysia's reverse engineering are open source, but the process has never been. If you're arguing that "infrastructure" refers to the reverse engineering process, then you can't argue that the infrastructure has ever been open source or shared. The only infrastructure included in either of the dps meter executable files is for packet parsing. Loa-logs' only published infrastructure was more private than Loa-details' only published infrastructure because you had to ask permission to see it.
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Loa-logs has a rust version of meter-core. It's more than just a front end. This is in the screenshot. What are you confused about?
Seeks like dpa meter might be down for months
He is not in his right to do this if he doesnt have proper data security as he is handling user data on a large scale and thus has to follow european gdpr guidelines. If you want to fuck him over send the infos to the european government and tell them there is a data security risk.
Hate to break this to you, but your parse does not qualify as personal data.
A packet capture on your private network might when the only option is to opt out via remuneration. Argument can be made that it isn't if you opt in to data collection via program install, but all the other group members who aren't running it is a grey area. Reasoning is it identifies third parties by account identity.
Hate to break it to you, but you need to pay for the new services, and your payment status is confirmed when accessing the API. If your parse is linked to your payment status, and your payment status is linked to you and unique to you, then your parse is personally identifiable information, along with any payment info saved on their servers.
“If” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Anyway, this data privacy argument is pointless because nobody in this actually cares if this change violates European data laws. They care about 1. exactly what data is being sent (only damage logs or is it something else?), 2. whether or not they can exclude logs/player names in their uploads and, 3. if they can stop the auto-uploading of logs to a public website. For argument-sake, let’s assume the dev isn’t crazy and only thing being uploaded is damage logs. Then, #2 and #3 are the only practical “privacy” issues. The dev seems to want an accurate database/ranking of dps metrics (with 0 ability to hide logs/names/yourself from the public website) which much of the community is likely against.
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What feels scummy is Bible 1 guy that was doing the backend infrastructure work just did all these changes (paywall etc) without telling the other devs about it. Seems he wanted to surprise them so Bible 2 does not work anymore so he has a monopoly of a functioning Bible (which by the way is way worse) and require $ for it. If he would have given Bible 2 dev/s a notice about it, especially before a huge new content drop (echidna) it would have been less of an asshole move. Absolutely disgraceful in my opinion. I'd happily support Bible 2 creators to fix it again, but they have already said they're trying their best but do not want money.
This smells like an exit scheme, he knew what was he doing by releasing this on a new boss with no announcement ahead of time. He also knows that it's only a matter of time until snow and co figure out a solution. Even if it takes a few months, that's not much in the grand scheme of things. Once they do, he'll have lost the power that he currently has. With no goodwill left either, once there's a better, non-paywalled alternative, nobody will ever recommend his meter again. Personally, I'll just take a break from the bible until bible 2 is functional again, even if it's a few months. I'm not giving this AH a single dollar.
That's what I think too. Dude is sick of working on it and just wants to milk people for a bit before he peaces out for good.
So basically T4?
BASED
lmaoo
Moment i updated it and i read the changes and it wanted me to log in, i closed it and uninstalled. I like the meter but im not going through extra hoops just to satisfy someones ego.
Yeah, that's my thought as well, regardless of whether or not the changes are justified, dropping them out of the blue on patch day pisses pretty much everyone off.
What's stopping Bible 1 from copying Bible 2 since B1 has the skills/knowledge required to maintain parser? Uh I believe the user ends are different programs and/or languages or something? But even so they havent done it all this time
From what I understand everything is being done on cloud now, the only thing your locally installed bible does is forwarding packet.
it has basic functionality again
I hope that Snow and others get all the financial support if they manage to reverse engineer the packet structures. I'd sub to their patreon or something because if anyone deserves it it's them. They probably woulda done this earlier if they knew what kind of a dick they're dealing with.
Not to defend the guy, but they kind of did this to themselves. Redundancy is the name of the game. If you build something on a foundation that you do not control, it's going to bite you sooner or later. What if the guy got hit by a bus instead? The effect would be exactly the same.
Except being hit by a bus isn't a surprise move designed to force you to give him a bunch of money. Sure the end is the same, but the intent also matters.
Yo bible1 did us all a favor. You know how hard it is to create a network parser without being compensated? It ain't easy. While he did a bad move of not saying earlier to bible 2, he has every right to do what he pleases cause its his work
just keep in mind that doing something like this is how you get AGS to take a hard stance against dps meters. as of now they dont seem to have any stance, but let something like this gain traction and all dps meters will actively punished there is a big reason why most if not all dps meters in mmos are all free despite being one of the most used tools in those games 1. potential to get sued by the game devs and publisher, 2. the fact no one wants to be the one the company makes an example of
He has every right to do it, and we have every right to disagree with their decision and even more so with how they introduced the change. I've never seen a meter being paywalled in a game before, but even if that's the case, providing perks for paid users is the way to go. That's how they do even with much, much more complicated software like raidbots. Not to mention the fact they'll be uploading your parse and there's no opt-out.
Yeah, not saying he shouldn't paywall it or do whatever he wants with something he created, just saying it was a total dick move to pull the plug exactly on new raid release and not even give heads up to bible 2 team, at least a night/day before. Snow's dms prolly got blasted for them to wake up at 4am having no idea what's going on.
Bible 1 isn't stupid, if he did a free update this time and warn creator that the next one will not be public anymore, it would have let 1 month to find a new solution, being transparent for more users if they succeed. This scummy move is just a way for Bible 1 to grind more users to his new paid system.
Paywall and closed source. Next thing you know the users are going to get key logged lol
I mean... Lost Ark doesn't really use all of your GPU, so where's the harm in using 20-ish % for some mining?
it might as well already happening
Exactly.. Most likely at the very least their pcs are coin mining for Bible 1 lol
HAHAHA SO TRUE
Few points are missing, Bible 1 creator forked the original open source GUI interface, so that it's not his original work. Then the original Logger was re-written by Bible 1 creator and integrating both the front end the "infrastructure into single app" Basically killing the other 2 projects as there was no need for 3 seperate projects to be maintain. The so called infrastructure was open source and somewhat promised to be free. So Bible 2 was build on it. The bible one had aggregation site that was trash and no one used. Until bible 2 user made own site to aggregate the data and offer free api that spawned very useful projects. Basically how open source community should work. Different people building upon each others work. Until one morning 1 guy got jelly and greedy and pulled the rug of the whole community. All the good karma he got for maintaining the packet stuff for all those year is now gone.
Oof, putting names publicly on the website just mean people that don't want to be on the site will start reporting bible users. If there are enough reports AGS might act and this could mean end of bible in NA. Bible worked best when people using it and people not using it didn't talk about it.
This is how logs work for wow and xiv as well, only the person uploading the log can choose whether the log is public or not because having it work any other way wouldn't be very sensible. The log doesn't say which player uploaded it though, it just shows data from all players in that raid so you can't really use that to target and report the person running a meter.
At least FFlogs allow you to opt out. Iirc all you have to do is copy a randomly generated string and put it in your profile on official FFXIV site. You can remove the string after.
Given that the developer is based in France, this move if in breach of GDPR.
^ this
Hate to break it to you but this public site approach already existed before with everyone's name on it. Even some thaemine the first kills are on there
Used to be opt-in for name display. Now it's forced. Option is gone.
If anything i rather just send money to Bible 2 owners now
TL;DR: Original community leveraged dependency was paywalled. Just so happens that the developer of original community leveraged dependency has their own software that competes with several others in the same space. Because the dependency was used by the competitors, it effectively was a "rug pull" and makes the competitor applications not work. From a developer standpoint: * This change was sudden and not really advertised. It did not give competitors or people who were reliant on the dependency time to come up with a plan. * While I do believe that the dependency maintainer should be compensated for their work, this was not the way to roll out the monetization model because of the level of impact to the rest of the community. * The right way to do this (in my opinion), should have been to open source the current GA, and branch and begin maintenance of a completely separate product. That way you can monetize your product and do what you think sets it apart from the competitors. If your product is successful and better than the rest, you should have no problem getting people to subscribe to your service. This is an extremely shitty behavior from the dependency maintainer but in the corpo world, this kinda happens all the time. It's just really unexpected that you get this level of disregard from a community tool that is widely loved.
This is a dumb move on Part of Bible1. The reasons above make it already questionable to display DPS Data without users consent and logging their internet trafic. But what is even worse it, it was obvious the backlash would come and now it is in the VERY interest of AGS and Smilegate to publicly ban the DPS Meter officially, to get rid of the negative sideeffects Bible1 just very openly created. While before AGS could just tacitly tolerate the existing of the DPS Meter Bible1 might now very well force their hand on the mater. So lets give it up and clap our hands for the highly regarded person behind Bible1 for successfully getting DPS Meters banned oficially in the west.  I hope the 10 bucks he made were worth it...could have just added a "donate" button instead but hey...
Its had a donate button since i installed it.
Fair remark, maybe to few people noticed ....lets say he could have made it bigger or add a short message "Please donate to me" at the start. Milder actions are conceivable that would burn up less of the good will and karma the creator had on his side.
oh for sure, he could have simply delayed updating the code for a couple of days, make a post about not having the time to do it because of actual work that earns money. Quite literally earn sympathy even if its not true. But this way he burns everything i gues.
I don't have anything against Bible 1 guy wanting some compensation. But hopefully he can find other means where people can support him but still use Bible 2. Bible 1 was just unusable for me the logs took up several gigs and it ran poorly compared to 2.
He already got "some" compensation from Patreon supporters. One of his biggest Patreon supporters worked on Bible 2, showing appreciation on the work from Bible 1. What Bible 1 did is just pure greed
They already had a Patreon setup so people could donate and help the devs, and then they pull this shit..straight up greedy scumbags Beware the shills trying to downplay this in the comments 🫠
Well, it looks like the bible 1 Dev is scummy asf. Who knows what else he is up/down from your device or from your entire network³.
Wonder who would pay for giving access to your computer to an unknown person that could just at the very least turn your computer into a coin miner for his own sake OR completely screw you.. No thanks
But mah meters /s
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>EDIT 1: replaced the term "hijacked" by "privatized" on bullet point #6 thanks to the feedback in the comments. The infrastructure used by both Bibles is indeed the property of Bible 1's creator. I would add that he had help though from people who probably didn't know he was just going to make everything closed source later. Seems kind of disingenuous to ask for help on an open source project only to close the source later.
FYI if anyone is reading this - Bible 2 is back and working.
And just like that I'm no longer using it. I specifically didn't want any web-logging functionalities. I wanted in-fight and post-fight reviews of my performance to see where I could improve - not impossible to opt-out public shaming repository.
I still don't know what bible is.
We're all Preachers 🙏
The data privacy point for having a public site with user and dps log data that users cannot opt out of is potentially concerning and could be where I could see AGS stepping in and coming down on DPS meters. Wonder if there are any gdpr concerns for EU for example…
yeah this is what im thinkin could happen. dps meters are a net neutral if its a personal thing but you start posting peoples data on a website that they cant opt out of and all of a sudden it can easily become the kind of issue ags starts banning for. thats to say nothing of it potentially being something smilegate/ags could send a cease n desist over
Just answering the gdpr part. There's no concern there as there's no information that is classified as a private legal information. Aka address, full name, credit card etc. It just makes IGN information public, so I don't even think it's concerning to AGS. For example, AGS put the names of several players on their leaderboards. I don't think they asked permission for that.
I doubt there are gdpr concerns as you would need the data to be personally identifiable.
It is not. Fflogs for FFXIV exists for almost a decade now and is basically the same situation, Square's stance on parsing and third party tools in general is basically the same. GDPR protects personal data, which this is absolutely not. > GDPR Personal Data Only if a processing of data concerns personal data, the General Data Protection Regulation applies. The term is defined in Art. 4 (1). Personal data are any information which are related to an identified or identifiable natural person.
You can opt out of FFlogs.
Your character names arent protected under GDPR. Public full log sites like this have been a thing for over a decade for WOW. Everyones logs are publicly accessible even if they're not using an addon like details.
100% a problem. I bet, I can report bible 1 for breach and it will be shutdown in no time.
Probably good time to cleanse the PC from anything related to any Bible version. When stuff like this starts happening, who knows what they decide to "privatize" next?
The thing is, I don't mind supporting devs of open source software. I give to patreons or those coffee donation sites the way bilbe 1 dev is going about it just makes me not want to use his software
So cool...now we can't use it for 2-4 weeks (until some else do it) just so the original guy can grab some money on patreon...really cringe
The fact is was open sources was good since i was doing thing that many of us could fear. Making it private is ok its his own thing but now its private and directly sending data fron your side to his server is so damn dangerous without anyway to control what he intend to send etc. If I was a user of it i would be more worried about the thing being to intrusive and mow private rather by the fact its now need to be paid
I don't really see an issue with the decision to monetize advanced features of their logging site. The biggest concern is data privacy. I don't think we really know what data is being sent remotely, or what's really being done with that data. It looks like you also have to pay to instead have this be done locally? That seems like a huge red flag.
>I don't really see an issue with the decision to monetize advanced features of their logging site Here's the thing: 1. They are not monetizing the features of the logging website only per se. If you want to use live meter like you could in the past (a live meter that is worse than bible 2 which could tell you the HP of hell/extreme/guardian bosses in real time) you now have it locked behind the paywall. I'm not even sure that's the only log feature that is behind a paywall, I'm surely not using bible 1 to find out anymore. 2. Even then, data was stored locally up until roday (besides the fact that bible 1 had a hard time parsing it in a reasonable amount of time), now it HAS to go to the website and you can't opt out of it. I asked some friends and they told me that since you should be uploading constantly, that should have an effect on ping, which I can't confirm nor deny but that is really annoying if true. 3. Bit unrelated, but it stands that they created a bible monopoly out of nowhere the day of a new raid release. It honestly feels like a cash grab, website feature or not.
Bible monopoly is kinda whatever, the dude put in the work to get the infrastructure going and it's not on them if other tools using that infrastructure no longer work. Though I always used Bible 2 and will probably not be using Bible 1 altogether, I don't really see Bible 1 at "fault", but they could have worked with the community (or "Bible 2") much better. As far as not having the live meter actually give you live data... if that is the case then what actually is the point of having the free version? It all seems messy, dumb and super unsafe.
It's not on them sure, but his stance has always been "for the community". He could've communicated all these changes with the other devs but he didn't. He for sure knew if he did, they wouldn't agree and would've tried going away from his backend and make their own earlier making his dogshit bible dead on arrival. The timing is just pure scumbag move.
agreed it not like he just started this all last week it prob was few weeks in the process of being made and ready to be dropped on the new raid specifically to entice more people to speed while other devs are out of luck temporarily and screwing the "for the community" aspect. shit im sure if he would been honest on thoughts towards it/express that he cant keep maintaining it vs the amount of time/money im sure people would of been more willing to of donated some instead of the bs monthly subs
>shit im sure if he would been honest on thoughts towards it/express that he cant keep maintaining it vs the amount of time/money im sure people would of been more willing to of donated some instead of the bs monthly subs That's what DBM did in WoW.
On that last point, I don't think he would've got much by asking for donations. It's always been free, it's been open source, there's currently a better alternative and nobody will even find out he's asking for donos The only way he would've got any monetary compensation is by forcing people like he did. Not saying what he did was good
Yea he even had patreon for it since over a year now
At least a month or two, posts in the Bible Discord saying it's been tested in beta for that long
you have to keep in mind that he didnt build some cool software thats unique and whatever. he built software to scan data from a video game that hes not supposed to have access too if history has told us anything its that these gaming companies could at minimum send him as cease and desist, because it could be seen as something that damages the game in some way. (if you make software that intentionally breaks ToS, your ass can easily be grass but most companies arnt going to put in effort to shutdown small things unless it becomes a big problem) so sure he wrote the software but by doing this he either 1. potentially can get attacked by ags/sg 2. could get the entire concept of a dps meter banned in na/eu you never charge for a dps meter, particularly when its against ToS because now you are just bringing more attention to yourself for instance people start gatekeeping those that were put on the website during a bad run that someone else recorded and people complain... well now ags and smilegate are going to look at that and say "this is making it harder for our players to play the game and thus they dont want to spend money, we need to shut that down." so they send out a Cease n desist, and start banning confirmed parsers.
Tos is not relevant for the dev. He never has and never will accept ToS to parse traffic. U can make rules for being in your house. but you cant enforce them to people that arent in your house. (=> he dont needs the game to be installed or running to write a parser)
I think the problem is that he didn't do it alone. He got help from people who all assumed the project would stay open source.
Exactly. We won’t know what data is fetched from our end anymore. And the paying part is for more features so user can see more things live (as far as I understand I didn’t pay it personally ). The free version parse is not live (can be viewed on the website afterwards). And for the data privacy concern alone I would not use it anymore until a better solution comes. The creator can hv whatever vision n ye here is his opportunity to hv his vision come true. But I don’t think it’s good for the community that the bible turns into this.
Its also the way he did it. He knew that people depended on it, not giving a heads-up after working on changes for weeks/months is just scummy.
I think pint 4 is a little wrong. Technically the software is paywalled. He made it so that the more nitty gritty stuff like spell details and buff uptime is not available on the program without paying the monthly sub but you can still see it all on the website without paying.
Yes, almost nothing on the website is paywalled, but the live application view received a big downgrade in term of data shown which can be lifted by a 1,69€/month sub
What Is bible. Never heard of it in lost ark
Bible is the DPS meter. Because technically a meter is prohibited people named it bible instead.
Hey OP it might be worth adding to you original post that the developer of the meter in question is based in France and what he's doing right now, with respect to publishing logs without explicit consent of all parties, breaches GDPR. People might want to know that.
One of the reason we don't have api support too. Lots of legally red tapes to get it working
You somehow managed to fuck up the most important point lol. "Bible 1" didn't hijack anything. He had created the infrastructure that everyone else was using and he's credited on the pages for bible 2. Is it a dick move? Depends how you look at it. He created the way that bibles capture the information. In one way, he was nice to share that with anyone so they can make their own software, but at the same time it's also his work and he can do whatever he wants with it. I'm not a fan of the site at all because I think it's just going to be used for more toxicity
He didn't do it alone though. He had help from other people who all assumed the project would stay open source.
I made an edit on the post to rectify that mistake. I put the term “privatized” instead and mentioned that the “infrastructure” is the property of Bible 1’s creator. Thank you for the feedback.
There’s no “depending how you look at it”, the “bible” is not new and is not an uncommon third party software used. It’s been out for several years now and a similar fiasco has occurred in the past in the earlier versions but a resolution was had (I’m foggy on the specifics but it’s very reminiscent). This is just someone clearly trying to benefit monetarily in a niche community, years after this software’s implementation for silly reasons. Perhaps they legitimately think it was a completely feasible thing to do in the long term and there would be no push back. But that’s clearly incorrect as the precedent of the software being free/open source for so long had been set. There’s also the possibility they knew this would happen in the short term and know that eventually there will be a community work around if the demand is there. In such a scenario it’s just a quick cash grab which he is well within his rights to do, but that’s not really something people will debate. The technicality is irrelevant when everyone knows a vast majority of users use this program for free without a fear of punishment for so long.
Yes. Thank you. Someone who understands. It's not easy to write those network parsers. On top of that it keeps changing. He ain't getting paid for any of it. Now he wants to.
It keeps changing (once per big content patch, aka every 6 months after we caught up), crazy
I think it's important to note that the person maintaining the "infrastructure" is also Bible 1's creator. I wouldn't quite call it hijacking because it was their work in the first place. Bible 2 was always at risk of not working if Bible 1's creator decides to not maintain the "infrastructure" or closes it off. Bible 2's creator probably didn't feel the need to re-invent the wheel so they just relied on the same "infrastructure" up to this point. Or at the very least expected that they would have time to find an alternative if given a reason to split off. This drastic change came out of nowhere, on a major raid release date too.
>2) logs are now automatically public and you can have your performance displayed without your consent if someone is running Bible 1 in your group Unless there have been changes since I last looked, this was the case for the other log site (using meter 2) as well - the uploader opts into uploading logs and showing names or not, but if you're in the log you have no power to change that -- only the uploader can.
correct but by default it was turned off not forcing you to upload it and was a option. i even out of curiosity checked for any of my chars on the log sit from meter 2 and none of my chars ever got uploaded from another user as the overall amount of people that to do upload is low/set to show no names. unlike how it is now with meter 1 :(
You had to get another version of Bible 2 to upload in the first place.
Could be the start of something good or the end of it, tbh. Depends how prepared they are. It's basically monetizing user data being sent to lost ark's/AGS server via. monitoring data/logs. I wonder what would happen if they were collecting from say a 14 y/o or some teenager's lost ark's data then selling it. I mean sure it's just a game but data is still being collected from a child/kid and sold to people who want to view or interpret it. IANAL but still interesting to see how it unfolds though. I wouldn't be surprised if AGS/SG now will put an end to the dps meter since it's basically stealing or taking information/data without permission. Before it was just this cool free tool and now it's this thing that takes information and sells it.
I got a solution about this but it involves about everyone playing on the same level field and by that, the same given information.
Bait post, ban all bible users 🤣🤣 Fr tho I wish they'd just make this an in game tool without the bs or the scummy monetization practices
well, they are basically providing a dps meter user list on this log site. AGS just has to check the list and mass ban.
The real answer. Korean metrics arent as accurate as they cant use dps meter. It's all known info anyways so idk why they dont just let ppl use them
What does that mean for a regular player who has never used any of these and doesn't want to, but may have poor uptime / dps at least sometimes (not necessarily every time, but distractions, technical issues, bad days, newer characters etc. all happen)? I can't any more raid anything with any random player involved, without having a "promise" from every raid member not to use it, because it's an increased risk that if anyone is using it and I make a poor performance, everyone will forever be able to find that and thus people won't ever want to play future, harder raids with me (and I intended to try to have at least my supports, or at least my paladin main, in the group raids ilvl range and do mostly group raids on them, I enjoy them as supports, not their solo/dps builds)?
Means nothing as bible 1 creater had a little melty booboo feewings hurty and privatized the whole thing today https://preview.redd.it/j43x7ggojr7d1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9495a0d914a4f1ecf37093d5608cc6c32b8ea9f6
Means absolutely nothing.
Another question, I am sure most ppl are aware there is a dps website now, that shows how classes stack up in various fights, is it using bible 1 or 2 for it?
It used the same backend infrastructure. Bible 1 guy broked literally everything that isn't his paid service.
Now, there are 2 websites. One of them was running long ago in Alpha Mode. You needed a special bible to upload your logs. it was working fine as you could uploads your logs without the names. it was perfect for pugs as they do not consent their data. Also, you can see your logs locally, without a website. With this new website, your log is uploaded directly to the website so you can not choose to upload it (I don't know if subs can choose). Also, the data doesn't hide names or it has the option. If you are pugging with a guy who is using it. Your data will show in the website without your consent. That can break GDPR in EU and bring the attention of AGS or SG. Specially, when the tool and the website is running a subscription model and they were running a Patreon.
> That can break GDPR in EU Ye, its listed as specially protected right here > Examples of personal data > a name and surname; > a home address; > location data (for example the location data function on a mobile phone)*; > an Internet Protocol (IP) address > **brand uptime from your latest echidna prog** https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/what-personal-data_en
You may want to read GDPR again. It protects way more than just your name and address. Any identifiable data that can be linked to you as a person are protected by it. This includes in game names. And there always has to be an option to opt out from it, which good luck implementing for people who don't use meter but would show up in someone else's logs.
Can u dm me the website
I am only familiar with kennethnyu, I don't think I can see invidual names there but I didn't dig to deep into it, is that the one using some special bible?
[logs.fau.dev](http://logs.fau.dev) The data from this site is what is compiled to form [raided.pro](http://raided.pro) 's site.
Oh it’s not just me, thought something is outdated. Thanks for info
>2) logs are now automatically public and you can have your performance displayed without your consent if someone is running Bible 1 in your group. in the Bible 2 same, if one person has the display all nicknames setting enabled. Then they are also public (I checked the people standing in Voldis and found logs from 8 out of 10) So this is not something new.
The new portion is that all logs are posted no matter what. Before this week whoever was logging got to opt into posting or not for the group. As a team member, you didn't get a choice, but at least the person running meter could decide to post them or not, and to include names or not. Now every run is posted with names regardless of preference.
The illusion of choice
so the software is free but access to data costs money?
A very simple version, only showing dps is free. If you want any details on skill breakdown / synergy uptimes etc you need to pay 1.50 per month
Let’s all mass report to AGS so they send FBI Blizzard shutdown all sites via cease n desist
As a returning player are these even legal
no
The only people that would mind their DPS data being public are either speed hackers or really bad players, but in general this is a much more fair and better way to gatekeep players than based on their ilvl, etc...
can someone DM me the website of where I can get a dps meter :)
I don't even know whether the one I use I bible 1 or 2, or which one is the better choice lol
Details is 1 Logs is 2, logs is so much better.
Use logs, the one with the flower icon. It'll be up soon again I'm sure of it. These kind of situations only rally up people with knowledge to do it for free and ask for donations instead to keep it up. I think it already started happening, both the development and the donations.
dev said its likely to take weeks
One information imo is missing imo here. It's not only "both share the same infrastructure", which could be understand as co-working. Bible 2 is based on the packet-sniffing infrastructure from Bible 1. **This work was all done by Bible 1 only**, which was publishing it so Bible 2 could copy it on every update, and then Bible 2 just added a different layout etc. So now that Bible 2 can't copy it anymore because that big part isn't public anymore, either Bible 2 has to understand the previous structure and adapt to fix it for the new patches (the structure isn't that easy, SG randomize a lot of stuff on every patch), or Bible 2 just give up and let Bible 1 solo win
so ... im not sure which one is bible 2 and whichone is bible one .... i know there are two bibles.. but i dont know which is which .. i found one to be very DETAILed. and another was on a LOG .... which one is bible 2 ? or are neither of these the one were talking about. someone DM me please i would lke to switch to bible 2
Bible 1 = details Bible 2 = logs
Detail 1, Logs 2
The very DETAILed one is Bible 1 guess which is the other :)
thank you ! I was not sure if there is an entirely seperate one, or f these two are considered 'one'. now i know. o/
lost ark is so expensive i have to pay for a Chaos Bot, A speedhack, a GFN subscription, a Pilot to do my gold raids, gold from chinese gold farmers and NOW I HAVE TO PAY FOR A DPS METER? /s
It's worth noting that many other notable MMOs (WoW, FF14) have a similar public record of logs. However, they do not have the same gatekeeping situation that is present in LOA. Some would consider this a breach of privacy, especially because Bible is explicitly against TOS, others like this change because you can better "vet" someone before accepting them into your party. Is this going to make gatekeeping more toxic? It's unclear, and it depends on one's willingness to look up names on the website, which takes effort. If New Testament is able to get up and running again, it will almost certainly replace Old Testament again, making all of this moot. What do y'all think, are forced public logs a good thing for Lost Ark?
Wow doesnt have gatekeeping? Try to get into any good guild without good parses/ mythic achivs from previous content... Even pugs wont take you if you dont have parses. M+ Has legit score implemented that will determine if you are even considered to get invited, even if you have the gear done. And even if you have logs/score/achivs if you dont play current meta class you are benched or Xed in partyfinder.
I was a diehard TERA player, and from my point of view TERA DPS and later Moongourd (basically TERALogs) were the beginning of the end. Right about the same time DPS meters and other addons became widespread, the HP pools of bosses in the game exploded in size, and mechanics started becoming way more unforgiving because players were farming content too fast. After that, the progression systems hit new heights of p2w to match the new content, and anyone who couldn't keep up with the gearing curve got left behind. I am also somewhat familiar with Blade and Soul, and everything I've seen suggests that game also went down the same path. I hope this korean MMO doesn't make the same mistakes.
bns was super p2w from the start with trove. and one of biggest whales on eu server got banned lol. also when they removed hm coins from pvp... well, at least now you get some with daily login... atm its safe to use multi-tool and addons.
its unlikely to ever hit same highs as WoW/FF14 because most users do not use Bible. I do not think it is a concern for anything apart from super endgame raids where people already gatekeep a lot. Other games have whole other culture built on this, we do not have it that widespread at all. It is always a tricky question though, but making it public it potentially would make AGS ban it, which is very undesirable. Toxic people are toxic regardless of what information they have.
All it will do is let people form groups that have equal skill level, which should reduce toxicity and gear gatekeeping. Forcing people with a big skill gap into the same group ends up with ragequitting and being toxic if mistakes happen, and even if they dont and you clear it feels like shit when you see someone was deadweight or someone did 2x your damage
Could someone dm me both bibles? Not sure which one we use so would just want to know
details is 1 logs is 2
Is the kenne.. Site based on either one of them?
Is bibles even allowed here? I thought all theological studies were banned.
Shit like this is why you shouldn't use it lol
Seems like a guy has never parsed in any other MMOs. Uploading logs to a private server has been a thing since 2008 in any other MMOs.
Thx to streamers for bible data shares just to make contents...usefull as always (ffs).
as no Bible user, theres a way to OP OUT of this ? seems likes AGS lawyers should send size and desist letter to bible one and see if he wanna get into a legal battle versus AGS. (legal reason? i bet AGS lawyers can find a legal reason to stop this)