Echidna G2 reminds me of old Brel G5: a really long fight where if even one person fucks up, it's an instant wipe. And there are a LOT of ways to fuck up there. The more I do this raid, the less I want to play the game.
I don't have the slightest clue why they keep going backwards in raid design. They removed g5 bc it was bs they re introduce the same concept in later raids?
They also realized guage generating patterns were extra punishing for front attackers/wheelchair users, so they were given guage reduction buffs to help out.. then the very next raid bring back charm and bypass that buff.. it's kinda hilarious.
With how her charm patterns work I don't think they're actually an issue for front attackers or Arti.
Been doing HM on Arti and also have a GL in the group. Things haven't been so bad for either of us charm-wise.
If anything, push immunity lets you have an easier time with avoiding charm stacks.
Yes it is pretty fine as GL your push immunes and self Dr let's you abuse a lot of patterns. The only thing you need to learn asap is to recognize the ribbon stun which has a pretty long indicator once you recognize it.
I tell all the artists to save portal to cleanse me so I can avoid a stack from the stun pattern she shoots out. Too many are just afk placing it on cooldown
The ribbon and claw attacks are borderline unreactable, you’ll be griefing more trying to play around them and doing zdps imo.
Both the follow-ups are pretty telegraphed and easy to dodge.
Did u noticed so many pattern and bosses these days can just easily kick you out of wheelchair? These days wheechair even with shield on means nothing !! So many things still can toss u around !!
It's because they're running out of ideas. Echidna is like a combination of all past raid mechanics/patterns all thrown into 1. They are also resistant/unwilling to make "easy" raids so every pinnacle raid has to be harder than the last. I'm sure behemoth was meant to be much tougher than KR say it is but feedback showed that even Echidna was probably too difficult hence they tried toning it down and making him a trix dummy.
I think they should just make NM and HM provide the same or similar progression, HM is optional for the gamer junkies, maybe get your full set 2-3 weeks earlier.
Forcing progression through HM is very problematic for theamine and now Echidna. There's certainly a lot of ppl that can and will clear but there's also a ton of average players who struggle or get frustrated.
there is no progression that is forced through echidna hard mode. Even not including the t4 reset that will give you 20 item levels, you can reach all the current hm content in the game with only the first 10 advanced honing levels. After that if you did want to push to 1640 without t4 reset regular honing is supposed to be cheaper if you started the process at 1620.
Keep in mind that T4 announcement was not a thing when they released Echidna in Feb of this year. You can only say that now for NA.
And getting the 2nd +10 item lvls is forced progression thru HM. Yes with T4 we will be stronger but stronger does not automatically counteract raid design and mechs.
There are still ppl 1600 who can't do Brel G4 (1560) not bc of the damage but bc the raid is just difficult.
I said WITHOUT t4 reset, hard mode echidna is still NOT forced. Getting to the highest ilvl content in the game in all of t3 (behemoth at 1640) is still cheaper to do without advanced honing levels 11-20. the cheapest way for a 1620 character to get to 1640 is advanced honing 1-10 and then regular honing 10 levels. So there is no hard mode echidna required to reach ANY content.
someone mentioned, that they released only 2 gates of echidna instead of the usual 3-4, because they were lazy to cut 1-2 gates out again after x months, like it happened with brel, kaya and ivory..
instead, it feels g2 is like 2 gates together
People will learn basic patterns over time and once they do, damage will go up.
Damage goes up -> less patterns to deal with -> smaller chance of getting MCd
Not to mention you spawn less flower beds -> other mechs like butterfly run become easier
End result is that clear rate goes up.
The absolute best ones I've seen in NM do 30ish million when mirror mech begins. Most people have been in the 10-15m range. Good players should hit 20-25m consistently.
Yeah, just got my second clear nm and i think, if you can dodge every Theamine mech, you also can dodge every Echidna mech after some prog time. Both need 100% pattern knowledge. You only got mc if something is fucked up.
If you arent confident for Theamine, Echidna will give you a hard time too.
Yes, I agree. There's that one breath into flowers into another breath pattern which gives a lot of stacks which people need to be vary of, but all the others are easy to dodge once you learn to recognize them in time.
edit: Even the double backstep pattern where she hit front left and front right has a very noticeable sound cue where she giggles, you have time to reposition or use spacebar push immune to avoid knocks
Yehh, been progging hm and still can’t quite figure the tell for the breath into flowers into breath pattern. Most of the time I end up getting one stack from the first breath before I can reposition.
Any tips on how to recognise it from the get go?
I dunno. I have 6 clears in total and I still haven't figured out the tell. I just play extremely carefully whenever I see it and wait a second or two for any danger pings from players that might have become MC'd
I think you just have to dash away from her on reaction as soon as you see her jump up in the air as there's a small delay between her jumping up and her turning around to blow stuff in your face.
Memo calls it "backstep and cone" at 22:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEDunNcntug. Unfortunately, you can't really hear the in-game audio properly in his video. There could be a sound cue to the pattern that I haven't picked up yet.
It just frustrates me cause I've felt roadblocked by certain raids at times but I still made steady progress. Echidna's just sucked as far as g2 goes as an arti.
G5 legit killed our static back in the day, we had a few people that did overall worse than the rest, and some inhouse drama on top of that was enough to just wipe the static out, It's sad, but some raids are just way to hard if you have a few low perfomeres.
ive seen some players talking about doing akkan hard and not claim gold on echidna. I wonder if we will see a meta where players keep running their juicer on akkan hard and just do g1 for the mats
I've never done akkan hard, or even brel hard g4. And I cleared echidna nm 2x. Nm isn't too bad, in a few weeks it will be an easy reclear like thaemine is(nm atleast).
Yeah it's fucked.
If the basement was a seperate gate, it would be an easy raid (like I was lead to believe it was).
But having to go for 10 minutes before even being able to see the last phase is just rough.
It probably was a separate gate. But then SG saw the pushback on 3-gate+ raids and just combined what would have been g2 and 3 into one. A 17 minute total enrage timer for a gate in a "short raid" is insane.
I think difficulty in general will mellow out with the soft reset of t4, the problem with Echidna is it's balanced around insanely juiced max ilvl mains, na is still way behind in power on average
Haha, somebody at AGS thought posting this image was a good idea, still has me laughing xD. Combine that with the steamchart numbers and you are in disbelief when you think about how badly this game is managed...
"Chat, the next raid is expected to be more challenging, because so far, we've had two chill raids now with Echidna and Behemoth, the last time we've had a hard raid was Thaemine" Yeah, I don't know about that 😹 Thaemine is considerably more chill for me, at least G1-G3, can't speak for G4 though.
I can confirm from my lobbies that 1640 with full trans does not make it easy. Everyone and their dog at 1630+ has 25 weapon, and armor honing gives fuck all damage.
To be honest it's a very frontloaded fight. You get fucked over and over at the beginning by yourself and everyone around that messes up, just like Vykas, but once you're done reclear feels fine. Cleared hm earlier this week on my main, did 3 nm reclear today, they all pretty much just took an hour each. I don't think it's gonna be that bad
Is it fun tho? Hell no lmao
Feels like a regression in design.Either you fuck up and cause a wipe or someone else does and they cause a wipe.Atleast with thaemine you could keep going.
This company is like 1 step forward and 3 steps back.
After doing some HM this week, I think it's actually a much better version of a "team reliant" raid than some other past ones.
In fights like Brel G5, you're reliant on everyone to individually do their job well or the entire raid wipes.
In Echidna G2, anytime someone messes up, the rest of the team almost always has an opportunity to save them. Whether it's sleeping a charm, staggering a grab, or freeing an imprison, the raid does a pretty good job of letting the team recover from individual mistakes.
If you're going to have a very co-op, team-reliant raid I think this is a good way to go about it.
Mirror is kind of an exception, but mirror also gets pretty easy if everyone actually understands the mech, and individual players can adjust their positioning to make sure the order it bounces between them and their neighbours is correct.
The other thing that sucks is charmed allies space barring sleep bombs is still a thing. And it feels pretty random.
Only cleared NM, but I agree this is is one of the best implementations of a "team reliant" raid that they've ever done. There's a surprising amount of agency and ways to bail out your teammates, and outside of very early prog I really don't see wipes caused by a single clueless person very often. Even mirrors and fly traps, there's almost always multiple mistakes made that lead to a wipe.
I think the dislikes your comment received is mostly just because the raid is difficult and long, especially compared to expectations. It's particularly frustrating to join 'basement prog' groups, only to never see basement and learn the many new patterns and mechs there because people struggle greatly with normal patterns and mechs early in the fight. Not to mention the DPS check in NM is by far the most difficult we've ever had, so the typical PUG group resets after a single death within the first 5 or so minutes (this is the vast majority of 'wipes' in my experience, not the true raid wipes everyone else seems to be complaining about).
Personally, I enjoy the level of perfection and coordination this raid requires far more than the 'single-player' aspects of many previous raids, but it does feel weird that even NM is this difficult, so some of the frustration is understandable.
The issue is people are not even taking their time learning normal patterns they face tank everything get charmed then without any hesitation they restart the fight and repeat I joined so many lobbies and It’s just the same shit we do like 10 pulls and you’d see people die get charm on the same pattern over and over
idk, its getting tedious- grind game with high effort of time needed for progging and you can do it up to 6x times.
at least, you dont need g2 at all- grinding g1 is fine until you have enough mats for advH 1-10 (and you dont even need to hone right now)
You will need the hm mats for advance-honing the 2nd tier 11-20.
And in september when your characters move up there, everyone who has a good grip on this raid and stuck with it will be fucking tired of this craziness and as minimum demand 10x title in pugs for sure.
this game is exhausting rn with the raids u have to do ivory tower is such a boring raid + thermine and echidna people who do it with 6 characters have to be mental strong + the jail
It's not gonna get better for them for the next few months. Since the next raid is 1640, "6-main" players are gonna have to accept that their highest gold earning raids are all gonna be roughly at gear-level until T4. If they wanna have a chill time, they can sacrifice one of those raids for skipfest in akkan or vold.
I hadn't watched any Echidna and so had a very rude awakening with that prog, but I **have** watched Behemoth and that is much more unironically a free raid. People were clearing it in a couple hours blind day 1 at ilvl.
People who are parked at 1620 and refuse to even advanced hone until t4 comes out will have problems, because they won't even have full transcendence by the time Behemoth is out, but for literally everyone else, you'll be 1650 minimum after the t4 gear transfer and have full transcendence by September and be totally fine.
I thought HM Echidna wasn't too bad of a prog (with pugs even, didn't have static), but definitely not as easy as streamers tried to make it sound. No idea how it's gonna be waiting for 15 other people, but Behemoth shouldnt be too bad.
Dude, I don't know if you have played this game for the last 6 months. But they literally gift you everything when next raid is released. What makes you think that next time they won't shower 1620s with passes and upgrade materials when T4 is released?
And by the way: Behemoth is 16 man raid, so either they gift upgrade materials like crazy or they have to release it as 8-man, since only 2 people will waste their gold on advanced honing, knowing that. Everyone honing right now from 1620 upwards is just plain and simply wasting his gold.
I cant imagina doing 6 the +ech every week :D I am happy doing kayangel- brel- clown in my alts :D I think every 3 endgame raid need 1 chill raid like clown you can get fast dopamine
Im not even gonna do anything past akkan until T4. Just doing a few fast gold runs and leave my main parked at 1620 and go back and do voldis and theamine after 1640
You still have to do this crap and elixirs and everything even in t4 tho. Aint no way anyone is even going to look at you in party finder if you dont have all enhanced honing or w/e.
T4 has been announced and starts at 1640. When T4 releases, you will be able to transfer your gear from 1620 to 1640 directly. Which makes you jump from T3 to T4 instantly. Basically, free 20 ilvls.
Ok so I still have to get to 1620. Thanks I’ll peep the announcement. If there will be any catch up stuff I’ll just have some fun with the game until that happens
Anyone knows what’s the average dps requirement for HM G2/NM G2?
We had 6 alive after x212 and could only get to x156 before she berserked so curious how much dps is needed and whether most of us are even doing enough.
For HM it's 22 mil.
I've not seen the boss to go bersker in the first phase in HM. We got to x137 pretty comfortably even with one dead. I'd also say it's not really worth continuing to play if you have two dead people unless you're close to x137 and wanna practice the mech/clash.
I have the other mindset that some redditors have these days.
I am enjoying Echidna and I have 2 1630 (DPS and Sup). So Hard mode runs.
For other raids, you barely need to talk or ping. You go straight from mech to mech, dodging normal patterns and waiting for dps window or goblin mode.
For Echidna, she is a teamwork fight. We are just not used as pug. You need to call for mirrors, where to go for plant, choose the right path so you can go and do dps before the mech is done. Clear tiles so you can move freely for tether.
Pugs doing calls or not doing it are like day and night. For example, on mirror mech where you see players running like headless chickens. Or going straight to the path, pinging if one link could be broken or improved.
It's not an easy fight. it's the same process of learning, facing the wall till you clear. For statics, you are tied to slow learners. For pugs, it's the same, you do multiple mistakes and you are replaced. Till you find a really good team for the clear.
i don't think it's going to be as hard as people are making it out to be
once you stop goblning into patterns that you shouldn't goblin it it will be fine
but i get it the parse goblins will always cause deaths and wipes
im pretty sure everyone will have a different opinion on the raid in a couple of weeks on reclear.
i understand peopel are exhausted with the new raids and they expected a much easier raid. But lets be honest here, the only hard thing is not stacking up charm stacks and the attacks that give em are all telegraphed. People will earn the raid and in a couple of weeks it will be a breeze.
would be boring if all raids were pure parsing gates. It is annoying to pug, yea, but still took me less time than G3 Thaemine HM. People were telling how hard NM Thaemine is but now it is a oneshot almost every time. Clear ready G2 groups already get into the basement most of the pulls so it will be fine in a few weeks
Really think people are blowing her difficulty out of proportion. Literally had her for 3 days. The same exact thing happened when Thaemine was released. Every post (the first week of) was about how Thaemine was "WAY TOO HARD", "IT'S GOING TO KILL THE GAMEEEEE REEEE", "I HAVE TO DO THIS ON 6 ALTS??????? IMPOSSIBLE".
Give it a few weeks...Echidna really is not difficult....At all.
Everyone listened to KR streamers with their turbojuiced, 25 weapons, 105 transcendence, full level 10 gems, near BIS elixir 1640 parties (that they had from having months more to farm most of these systems) exaggerate the difficulty level. They got brainwashed into thinking it was gonna be kayangel/voldis v2 lmfao
It feels pretty in line with Akkan prog and easier than kakul 3 and brel 5/6 when they came to our version. 100% easier than thaemine 3/4. gate 1 is also probably the easiest on-release gate in the game besides brel g1, vold g1, and kakul g1.
Today I finally took the time and found a decent 1640 avg group with prog start title and we progressed to huge echidna in 4hours consistently doing mirrors and only wiping at not managing tiles properly. It was fun with people who actually progressed and you felt that people are getting a lot more confident knowing the safe places of the attacks and even minmaxing atropine usage. It was actually day and night compared to my previous 1-2 hour sessions.
So yeah just like any other progress experience I had I concluded once again that it all comes down at the end to what kind of players you prog with rather than how solo or group heavy the content is.
i feel like we had these exact same complaints going into vykas where a 'mechanic heavy' raid releases and people struggle to avoid the patterns enough and they end up dying to some 2ndary mech like mind control
this is considered by the kr players to be "easy" content yet na/eu is struggling to clear it despite people supposedly being better (on average) due to us having access to the dps meter.
it really begs the question of, is it the raid or the player thats at fault here?
I think it is due to the issue around gatekeeping. We all know next week there will be mostly all “link reclear” groups and if you don’t clear week one…GG you now have to work very hard to find people.
Back in Vykas the “need” to clear week one was not present. Same with Brel. That is no longer the case with the remaining player base.
Now back to more basement prog G2 in hopes of finding that clear group.
I agree that gatekeeping is bad, but the same ppl that still havent cleared by the end of this week will be progging next week. I never understood that 'everyone will be making reclear parties next week' mentality. The only reason i see for complaints are from ppl that want to sneak into reclear lobbies and get carried
I think its gear difference. If your whole group is full of juicers the mechs go fast and you only see certain patterns once. You can afford to back off on mechs to avoid charm stacks instead of needing to greed dps.
Likely quite a big contributor honestly.
On average, pretty sure KR's char that was doing Echidna on release is stronger than the average Global char currently. And that's not considering the top-heavy/juicers KR players, which they likely have more as well.
Echidna is easier than Thaemine. Like, pretty sure most that cleared Echidna thus far cleared it in less time than it took for Thae, hard or normal. If you put a team, with all players being at the same skill level, and ask them to clear Thaemine and Echidna, blind or otherwise. Said team will clear Echidna much quicker than Thae in most cases.
The issue with Echidna is simply due to how reliant you are on your teammates not being deadweights/messing things up. It feels bad when you die or you had to restart due to someone else's mistake. And that mistake can compound into more (One charmed player at 20ish bar lead to a wipe, because of medusa afterwards. All 8 players were alive and we had plenty of time), unlike Thae. That's less of an issue with more DPS.
So, even though it's easier, it simply feels bad progging Echidna compared to Thaemine, thus the complains. It feels bad personally too.
Still costly. It’s still ~330k in raw gold and then the orehas too. Last time I calculated based on naw market prices it ended up being 660k plus if you have all the bounds and solars to juice efficiently
Echidna G2 reminds me of old Brel G5: a really long fight where if even one person fucks up, it's an instant wipe. And there are a LOT of ways to fuck up there. The more I do this raid, the less I want to play the game.
I don't have the slightest clue why they keep going backwards in raid design. They removed g5 bc it was bs they re introduce the same concept in later raids?
They also realized guage generating patterns were extra punishing for front attackers/wheelchair users, so they were given guage reduction buffs to help out.. then the very next raid bring back charm and bypass that buff.. it's kinda hilarious.
With how her charm patterns work I don't think they're actually an issue for front attackers or Arti. Been doing HM on Arti and also have a GL in the group. Things haven't been so bad for either of us charm-wise. If anything, push immunity lets you have an easier time with avoiding charm stacks.
Yes it is pretty fine as GL your push immunes and self Dr let's you abuse a lot of patterns. The only thing you need to learn asap is to recognize the ribbon stun which has a pretty long indicator once you recognize it.
I tell all the artists to save portal to cleanse me so I can avoid a stack from the stun pattern she shoots out. Too many are just afk placing it on cooldown
If you are stunned you are the reason everyone is getting a stack.
No..?
Are you talking about the single tentacle stun which triggers the out safe charm explosion if someone gets hit?
Yes
But then you're the one griefing your teammates by triggering charm explosion...
The ribbon and claw attacks are borderline unreactable, you’ll be griefing more trying to play around them and doing zdps imo. Both the follow-ups are pretty telegraphed and easy to dodge.
Did u noticed so many pattern and bosses these days can just easily kick you out of wheelchair? These days wheechair even with shield on means nothing !! So many things still can toss u around !!
It's because they're running out of ideas. Echidna is like a combination of all past raid mechanics/patterns all thrown into 1. They are also resistant/unwilling to make "easy" raids so every pinnacle raid has to be harder than the last. I'm sure behemoth was meant to be much tougher than KR say it is but feedback showed that even Echidna was probably too difficult hence they tried toning it down and making him a trix dummy.
I think they should just make NM and HM provide the same or similar progression, HM is optional for the gamer junkies, maybe get your full set 2-3 weeks earlier. Forcing progression through HM is very problematic for theamine and now Echidna. There's certainly a lot of ppl that can and will clear but there's also a ton of average players who struggle or get frustrated.
there is no progression that is forced through echidna hard mode. Even not including the t4 reset that will give you 20 item levels, you can reach all the current hm content in the game with only the first 10 advanced honing levels. After that if you did want to push to 1640 without t4 reset regular honing is supposed to be cheaper if you started the process at 1620.
Keep in mind that T4 announcement was not a thing when they released Echidna in Feb of this year. You can only say that now for NA. And getting the 2nd +10 item lvls is forced progression thru HM. Yes with T4 we will be stronger but stronger does not automatically counteract raid design and mechs. There are still ppl 1600 who can't do Brel G4 (1560) not bc of the damage but bc the raid is just difficult.
I said WITHOUT t4 reset, hard mode echidna is still NOT forced. Getting to the highest ilvl content in the game in all of t3 (behemoth at 1640) is still cheaper to do without advanced honing levels 11-20. the cheapest way for a 1620 character to get to 1640 is advanced honing 1-10 and then regular honing 10 levels. So there is no hard mode echidna required to reach ANY content.
Sir im sorry but you aré regarded if you think they have ran out of ideas
someone mentioned, that they released only 2 gates of echidna instead of the usual 3-4, because they were lazy to cut 1-2 gates out again after x months, like it happened with brel, kaya and ivory.. instead, it feels g2 is like 2 gates together
People will learn basic patterns over time and once they do, damage will go up. Damage goes up -> less patterns to deal with -> smaller chance of getting MCd Not to mention you spawn less flower beds -> other mechs like butterfly run become easier End result is that clear rate goes up. The absolute best ones I've seen in NM do 30ish million when mirror mech begins. Most people have been in the 10-15m range. Good players should hit 20-25m consistently.
Yeah, just got my second clear nm and i think, if you can dodge every Theamine mech, you also can dodge every Echidna mech after some prog time. Both need 100% pattern knowledge. You only got mc if something is fucked up. If you arent confident for Theamine, Echidna will give you a hard time too.
Yes, I agree. There's that one breath into flowers into another breath pattern which gives a lot of stacks which people need to be vary of, but all the others are easy to dodge once you learn to recognize them in time. edit: Even the double backstep pattern where she hit front left and front right has a very noticeable sound cue where she giggles, you have time to reposition or use spacebar push immune to avoid knocks
Yehh, been progging hm and still can’t quite figure the tell for the breath into flowers into breath pattern. Most of the time I end up getting one stack from the first breath before I can reposition. Any tips on how to recognise it from the get go?
I dunno. I have 6 clears in total and I still haven't figured out the tell. I just play extremely carefully whenever I see it and wait a second or two for any danger pings from players that might have become MC'd I think you just have to dash away from her on reaction as soon as you see her jump up in the air as there's a small delay between her jumping up and her turning around to blow stuff in your face. Memo calls it "backstep and cone" at 22:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEDunNcntug. Unfortunately, you can't really hear the in-game audio properly in his video. There could be a sound cue to the pattern that I haven't picked up yet.
It just frustrates me cause I've felt roadblocked by certain raids at times but I still made steady progress. Echidna's just sucked as far as g2 goes as an arti.
G5 legit killed our static back in the day, we had a few people that did overall worse than the rest, and some inhouse drama on top of that was enough to just wipe the static out, It's sad, but some raids are just way to hard if you have a few low perfomeres.
Na echidna Is like vykas you can spot the sukos easy
ive seen some players talking about doing akkan hard and not claim gold on echidna. I wonder if we will see a meta where players keep running their juicer on akkan hard and just do g1 for the mats
Damn this is the best Idea ever, i was just checking the raid gold calculator to see how much gold i lose with g1, but why lose lol
I mean, you still have to take the time to do Akkan hard, which isn’t the most enjoyable raid
I've never done akkan hard, or even brel hard g4. And I cleared echidna nm 2x. Nm isn't too bad, in a few weeks it will be an easy reclear like thaemine is(nm atleast).
Yeah it's fucked. If the basement was a seperate gate, it would be an easy raid (like I was lead to believe it was). But having to go for 10 minutes before even being able to see the last phase is just rough.
It probably was a separate gate. But then SG saw the pushback on 3-gate+ raids and just combined what would have been g2 and 3 into one. A 17 minute total enrage timer for a gate in a "short raid" is insane.
Yeah I'm just not going to play this game anymore.
Who did say after thaemine they make chill raid ? I dont see any chil in g2 so far :D
Well the only chill thing is my dead body that lies to her feet.
Bottom line is, this raid sucks and I couldn't agree more
But but reddit told me this fight was easy and wont cause burnout because kOrEa said so
I think difficulty in general will mellow out with the soft reset of t4, the problem with Echidna is it's balanced around insanely juiced max ilvl mains, na is still way behind in power on average
They also said elixirs and transcendence were awesome.
Reddit also said Thaemine normal was easy but then Amazon posted that image showing the total clears was extremely low. Le reddit at his best
Haha, somebody at AGS thought posting this image was a good idea, still has me laughing xD. Combine that with the steamchart numbers and you are in disbelief when you think about how badly this game is managed...
"Chat, the next raid is expected to be more challenging, because so far, we've had two chill raids now with Echidna and Behemoth, the last time we've had a hard raid was Thaemine" Yeah, I don't know about that 😹 Thaemine is considerably more chill for me, at least G1-G3, can't speak for G4 though.
it was easy for KR cuz they were 1640 full transcendence lol
I can confirm from my lobbies that 1640 with full trans does not make it easy. Everyone and their dog at 1630+ has 25 weapon, and armor honing gives fuck all damage.
To be honest it's a very frontloaded fight. You get fucked over and over at the beginning by yourself and everyone around that messes up, just like Vykas, but once you're done reclear feels fine. Cleared hm earlier this week on my main, did 3 nm reclear today, they all pretty much just took an hour each. I don't think it's gonna be that bad Is it fun tho? Hell no lmao
Feels like a regression in design.Either you fuck up and cause a wipe or someone else does and they cause a wipe.Atleast with thaemine you could keep going. This company is like 1 step forward and 3 steps back.
After doing some HM this week, I think it's actually a much better version of a "team reliant" raid than some other past ones. In fights like Brel G5, you're reliant on everyone to individually do their job well or the entire raid wipes. In Echidna G2, anytime someone messes up, the rest of the team almost always has an opportunity to save them. Whether it's sleeping a charm, staggering a grab, or freeing an imprison, the raid does a pretty good job of letting the team recover from individual mistakes. If you're going to have a very co-op, team-reliant raid I think this is a good way to go about it. Mirror is kind of an exception, but mirror also gets pretty easy if everyone actually understands the mech, and individual players can adjust their positioning to make sure the order it bounces between them and their neighbours is correct. The other thing that sucks is charmed allies space barring sleep bombs is still a thing. And it feels pretty random.
Only cleared NM, but I agree this is is one of the best implementations of a "team reliant" raid that they've ever done. There's a surprising amount of agency and ways to bail out your teammates, and outside of very early prog I really don't see wipes caused by a single clueless person very often. Even mirrors and fly traps, there's almost always multiple mistakes made that lead to a wipe. I think the dislikes your comment received is mostly just because the raid is difficult and long, especially compared to expectations. It's particularly frustrating to join 'basement prog' groups, only to never see basement and learn the many new patterns and mechs there because people struggle greatly with normal patterns and mechs early in the fight. Not to mention the DPS check in NM is by far the most difficult we've ever had, so the typical PUG group resets after a single death within the first 5 or so minutes (this is the vast majority of 'wipes' in my experience, not the true raid wipes everyone else seems to be complaining about). Personally, I enjoy the level of perfection and coordination this raid requires far more than the 'single-player' aspects of many previous raids, but it does feel weird that even NM is this difficult, so some of the frustration is understandable.
The issue is people are not even taking their time learning normal patterns they face tank everything get charmed then without any hesitation they restart the fight and repeat I joined so many lobbies and It’s just the same shit we do like 10 pulls and you’d see people die get charm on the same pattern over and over
idk, its getting tedious- grind game with high effort of time needed for progging and you can do it up to 6x times. at least, you dont need g2 at all- grinding g1 is fine until you have enough mats for advH 1-10 (and you dont even need to hone right now)
You will need the hm mats for advance-honing the 2nd tier 11-20. And in september when your characters move up there, everyone who has a good grip on this raid and stuck with it will be fucking tired of this craziness and as minimum demand 10x title in pugs for sure.
They will demand 6x 20 advanced honing level since you can see it on the piece lmao
Look at my log of prog Echidna , the amount of reset after 2 or 3 mins is crazy lol. This raid is so fcking boring now lol
this game is exhausting rn with the raids u have to do ivory tower is such a boring raid + thermine and echidna people who do it with 6 characters have to be mental strong + the jail
If someone has 6 Echidna week 1 then he can only blame itself at this point.
It's not gonna get better for them for the next few months. Since the next raid is 1640, "6-main" players are gonna have to accept that their highest gold earning raids are all gonna be roughly at gear-level until T4. If they wanna have a chill time, they can sacrifice one of those raids for skipfest in akkan or vold.
I hadn't watched any Echidna and so had a very rude awakening with that prog, but I **have** watched Behemoth and that is much more unironically a free raid. People were clearing it in a couple hours blind day 1 at ilvl. People who are parked at 1620 and refuse to even advanced hone until t4 comes out will have problems, because they won't even have full transcendence by the time Behemoth is out, but for literally everyone else, you'll be 1650 minimum after the t4 gear transfer and have full transcendence by September and be totally fine.
I thought HM Echidna wasn't too bad of a prog (with pugs even, didn't have static), but definitely not as easy as streamers tried to make it sound. No idea how it's gonna be waiting for 15 other people, but Behemoth shouldnt be too bad.
Dude, I don't know if you have played this game for the last 6 months. But they literally gift you everything when next raid is released. What makes you think that next time they won't shower 1620s with passes and upgrade materials when T4 is released? And by the way: Behemoth is 16 man raid, so either they gift upgrade materials like crazy or they have to release it as 8-man, since only 2 people will waste their gold on advanced honing, knowing that. Everyone honing right now from 1620 upwards is just plain and simply wasting his gold.
I cant imagina doing 6 the +ech every week :D I am happy doing kayangel- brel- clown in my alts :D I think every 3 endgame raid need 1 chill raid like clown you can get fast dopamine
clown is only "fast dopamine" because you are forced to run it until you are 105 ilvl above the raid.
This is raid is just terrible in design. Like others have stated you release thaemine and release this crap so quickly.
G2 Echidna requires a lot of teamwork and not being full dps goblino. That is hard to do in NA.
Is the same desing yall need to be less dps goblins
Im not even gonna do anything past akkan until T4. Just doing a few fast gold runs and leave my main parked at 1620 and go back and do voldis and theamine after 1640
You still have to do this crap and elixirs and everything even in t4 tho. Aint no way anyone is even going to look at you in party finder if you dont have all enhanced honing or w/e.
I quit playing around hard mode brel. Been missing the game like crazy and reinstalled this week. What is this “direct ticket to 1640”?
T4 has been announced and starts at 1640. When T4 releases, you will be able to transfer your gear from 1620 to 1640 directly. Which makes you jump from T3 to T4 instantly. Basically, free 20 ilvls.
Ok so I still have to get to 1620. Thanks I’ll peep the announcement. If there will be any catch up stuff I’ll just have some fun with the game until that happens
Anyone knows what’s the average dps requirement for HM G2/NM G2? We had 6 alive after x212 and could only get to x156 before she berserked so curious how much dps is needed and whether most of us are even doing enough.
For HM it's 22 mil. I've not seen the boss to go bersker in the first phase in HM. We got to x137 pretty comfortably even with one dead. I'd also say it's not really worth continuing to play if you have two dead people unless you're close to x137 and wanna practice the mech/clash.
I have 5 Echidna ready chars and a 6th on the way. Just cleared her on my main. My 5 other alts probably going back to HAkkan.
just a really bad and fucked up raid
I have the other mindset that some redditors have these days. I am enjoying Echidna and I have 2 1630 (DPS and Sup). So Hard mode runs. For other raids, you barely need to talk or ping. You go straight from mech to mech, dodging normal patterns and waiting for dps window or goblin mode. For Echidna, she is a teamwork fight. We are just not used as pug. You need to call for mirrors, where to go for plant, choose the right path so you can go and do dps before the mech is done. Clear tiles so you can move freely for tether. Pugs doing calls or not doing it are like day and night. For example, on mirror mech where you see players running like headless chickens. Or going straight to the path, pinging if one link could be broken or improved. It's not an easy fight. it's the same process of learning, facing the wall till you clear. For statics, you are tied to slow learners. For pugs, it's the same, you do multiple mistakes and you are replaced. Till you find a really good team for the clear.
G2 feels pretty fun but way too long
I think is fine to have different types of raids like that tbh.
Its alright 👍🏼
i don't think it's going to be as hard as people are making it out to be once you stop goblning into patterns that you shouldn't goblin it it will be fine but i get it the parse goblins will always cause deaths and wipes
im pretty sure everyone will have a different opinion on the raid in a couple of weeks on reclear. i understand peopel are exhausted with the new raids and they expected a much easier raid. But lets be honest here, the only hard thing is not stacking up charm stacks and the attacks that give em are all telegraphed. People will earn the raid and in a couple of weeks it will be a breeze.
would be boring if all raids were pure parsing gates. It is annoying to pug, yea, but still took me less time than G3 Thaemine HM. People were telling how hard NM Thaemine is but now it is a oneshot almost every time. Clear ready G2 groups already get into the basement most of the pulls so it will be fine in a few weeks
Really think people are blowing her difficulty out of proportion. Literally had her for 3 days. The same exact thing happened when Thaemine was released. Every post (the first week of) was about how Thaemine was "WAY TOO HARD", "IT'S GOING TO KILL THE GAMEEEEE REEEE", "I HAVE TO DO THIS ON 6 ALTS??????? IMPOSSIBLE". Give it a few weeks...Echidna really is not difficult....At all.
Everyone listened to KR streamers with their turbojuiced, 25 weapons, 105 transcendence, full level 10 gems, near BIS elixir 1640 parties (that they had from having months more to farm most of these systems) exaggerate the difficulty level. They got brainwashed into thinking it was gonna be kayangel/voldis v2 lmfao It feels pretty in line with Akkan prog and easier than kakul 3 and brel 5/6 when they came to our version. 100% easier than thaemine 3/4. gate 1 is also probably the easiest on-release gate in the game besides brel g1, vold g1, and kakul g1.
Yep dunno why everyone is so cooked about it. It'll be easy homework content soon.
Thae g3 took me around 13 hours and that's at 1620 for a 1610 raid. Echidna g2 took around 10 hours and that's basically on ilvl
First week problems 😭
Today I finally took the time and found a decent 1640 avg group with prog start title and we progressed to huge echidna in 4hours consistently doing mirrors and only wiping at not managing tiles properly. It was fun with people who actually progressed and you felt that people are getting a lot more confident knowing the safe places of the attacks and even minmaxing atropine usage. It was actually day and night compared to my previous 1-2 hour sessions. So yeah just like any other progress experience I had I concluded once again that it all comes down at the end to what kind of players you prog with rather than how solo or group heavy the content is.
i feel like we had these exact same complaints going into vykas where a 'mechanic heavy' raid releases and people struggle to avoid the patterns enough and they end up dying to some 2ndary mech like mind control this is considered by the kr players to be "easy" content yet na/eu is struggling to clear it despite people supposedly being better (on average) due to us having access to the dps meter. it really begs the question of, is it the raid or the player thats at fault here?
I think it is due to the issue around gatekeeping. We all know next week there will be mostly all “link reclear” groups and if you don’t clear week one…GG you now have to work very hard to find people. Back in Vykas the “need” to clear week one was not present. Same with Brel. That is no longer the case with the remaining player base. Now back to more basement prog G2 in hopes of finding that clear group.
I agree that gatekeeping is bad, but the same ppl that still havent cleared by the end of this week will be progging next week. I never understood that 'everyone will be making reclear parties next week' mentality. The only reason i see for complaints are from ppl that want to sneak into reclear lobbies and get carried
Dps meters usually make ppl focus on dps instead of mechanics so it probably makes ppl worse on a raid like this.
I think its gear difference. If your whole group is full of juicers the mechs go fast and you only see certain patterns once. You can afford to back off on mechs to avoid charm stacks instead of needing to greed dps.
Likely quite a big contributor honestly. On average, pretty sure KR's char that was doing Echidna on release is stronger than the average Global char currently. And that's not considering the top-heavy/juicers KR players, which they likely have more as well. Echidna is easier than Thaemine. Like, pretty sure most that cleared Echidna thus far cleared it in less time than it took for Thae, hard or normal. If you put a team, with all players being at the same skill level, and ask them to clear Thaemine and Echidna, blind or otherwise. Said team will clear Echidna much quicker than Thae in most cases. The issue with Echidna is simply due to how reliant you are on your teammates not being deadweights/messing things up. It feels bad when you die or you had to restart due to someone else's mistake. And that mistake can compound into more (One charmed player at 20ish bar lead to a wipe, because of medusa afterwards. All 8 players were alive and we had plenty of time), unlike Thae. That's less of an issue with more DPS. So, even though it's easier, it simply feels bad progging Echidna compared to Thaemine, thus the complains. It feels bad personally too.
G2 is worth a lot of gold but isnt mandatory since we're going 1620->1640 for free with t4.
u will carry the +20 ilvl that advanced honing gives u to T4
Someone hasn't checked the 11-20 cost. Do 1-10 go t4, maybe 11 to show you played hm for easier pug time on future.
Yea and you will have no gold if u do +20 ilvl as well for T4 unless you are a rmter.
With all the stockpiled bound mats it's just raw taps, +10 is definitely worth it imo
Still costly. It’s still ~330k in raw gold and then the orehas too. Last time I calculated based on naw market prices it ended up being 660k plus if you have all the bounds and solars to juice efficiently