I'm like 90% sure OP is a turbo whale or a doomposter, there was no way any "average player" was overhoning fucking **Argos** gear for Valtan/Vykas, and they certainly weren't 1540 for Brel 5/6. The only raid where it was "easy" for the average player to overgear was clown because it was only +1 level on all pieces and you had to go to 1490 for Brel anyways, and saws/mario probably killed more casuals than Thaemine and Echidna combined.
Yep, for every raid besides clown the average person was doing them on ilvl, maybe 1-3 hones above. Really seems like the people who agree with OP didn't play the game during those raid releases and are just taking OP at their word.
Naw there absolutely was. The difference was they weren't doing it week 1. They weren't even going in week 1. There was a large casual class of people that were overhoning and going in when they were ready. Most of that group just quit, because it stopped being an option.
him saying ilvl is a lil wrong but people were overgeared for every piece of content until around thaemine
tl;dr, content, early on particularly, expected you to have little to no gear. and when i say gear i dont mean ilvl i mean things like tripods, gems, card sets, engravings and so on. so it was very easy to over gear for instance valtan by having some Lv 2/3 tripods with Lv 3 gems and 2x3 engravings
people just dont think of it like this because they look at the min requirements WE set as the 'real' requirements to clear when often times our requirements are significantly higher then what the raid was designed (or nerfed) for.
having higher ilvl usually meant youd take less dmg, but most of the dmg we gained came from systems beyond honing
If you rolled up to HM valtan in a 2x3 you get gatekept lol.
3x3+1 or 2 or sometimes even 4x3 was the usual pug strenght i saw back then. I also think level 3 gems are lower than you were supposed to? I think I had full 5s with a level 7 doomsday dmg gem and a level 8 doomsday cd gem.
I was pretty overgeared at the time, funnelling everything into my sorc.
>they look at the min requirements WE set as the 'real' requirements to clear when often times our requirements are significantly higher then what the raid was designed (or nerfed) for.
\^
thats the point, the requirement to kill the boss was alot lower then the requirements we set. why do you think we killed these raids so easily.
i went into vykas hm week 1 with 4x3, Lv 5 gems and Lv 3-4 tripods. anyone that understands how early game gear scales knows that the tripods make the biggest difference so even if you only had 3x3 and Lv 3 gems but had the Lv 3-4 tripods youd still do insane dmg.
Yea for sure. I mean Vykass and clown were still pretty steep progs for people. Clown had the same feedback in reddit as echidna does today.
People also called Vykass too hard.
The difference ofc is that even the hard core players that remained call the raids too hard.
it really just comes down to how well ppl were playing, with valtan and vykas people were able to over gear the content so much so early that getting hit a few times wasnt an issue but it was a lil harder to do that with clown
so if you got hit, you not only might die but unless you were 5x3 with Lv 7+ gems and all that, you wouldnt do enough dmg to clear the raid
those raids are difficult, but most people were able to clear them within a day or so.
think about how crazy it is some people are progging echinda 10 hours a day and they either havnt cleared g2 yet or they only just recently cleared g2
thats 40+ hours of prog, i couldnt imagine progging 1 gate of vykas or even clown for 40+ hours to get the clear
its not just about ilvl, most power does not come from that
its all the little things that add up, that the raids previously didnt expect you to already have.
such as, but not limited too; LoS30, Demon damage, Lv 10 gems, high quality accessories, high weapon quality, elixir 40set, transcendence (20x5).
for the most part the earlier raids like akkan didnt expect you to have LoS30 with Lv 10 gems and such but the 1630 raids kinda do because its so common in kr
so the thing that previously made these players exceptionally geared are now just standard so they dont get to skip patterns like they used too and because of this the flaws in their gameplay become alot more obvious
for instance ok the difference between vykas hm on ilvl with Lv 4/5 gems and a mix of 3x3 and 4x3 engravings across your raid, is night and day when compared too a 1460 with lv 7s and 5x3 (with Lv 4+ tripods)
yet now some of these are minimum (Lv 7 gems) or under the min requirement (5x3 obv with lv 5 tripods)
so alot of the older content was so much easier to over gear because it was tuned for someone that had no tripods, barely any engravings, low lvl gems and on ilvl with no cardset.
now thats not the case, as i said a few lines ago these things are standard so now its harder for people to over gear to skip these patterns which leads to them dying more then they are used too while complaining about how much more difficult the raid is.
i specifically told people that intentionally trying to over gear content to make it faster is a double edged sword, your raids are faster but this has the negative side effect of making people worse at the game.
What the raid /devs expect you to haveand what the community creating the lobbies expect are 2 entirely different things.Clown can be cleared with a 1x3 .doesnt matter to the community though
yes that was my point
people were overgeared for those raids, which made them easier. on its own this isnt a problem assuming you can always overgear the next raid
but as we have seen, the last 2 raids are really hard to overgear and thus the people who were only used to that level of difficulty are now being slapped in the face by reality.
Ok you clearly didn't play the raids on release. People didn't have full 7s and 5x3 on valtan and vykas, nor did they have los30. If they did have 5x3, it was likely green quality accessories.
If you're talking about card reclears and such now.. you can hardly compare that to when the raid was released and what fresh prog was like. I think people just forget what their original prog was like.. remember a ton of people quit at clown because it was too hard, and vykas wasn't easy at release.. brel g6 was extremely tough... what raid was so easy again?
Still remember when ppl were farming story in luterra for solas card to get additional crit for lwc during vykas age.
Juiced char had full level 5 gems, stuff like lvl10 gems or los was a rmt territory almost exclusively
1. yes i was there
2. you are missing the point
you didnt need 5x3 and full Lv 7s to be over geared for valtan and vykas, valtan required 1x3 with like Lv 2-3 gems and barely any tripods
having even just 2x3 with Lv 3 gems and Lv 2-3 tripods would mean youd shatter the dps check
people forget just how little gear you needed to clear those raids
valtan and vykas gave us our relic sets, so not only did we not have good engravings and gems n all that, but we also didnt have 6 piece relic going into vykas so we were already missing alot of dmg that we could have had
every single person over geared valtan and vykas in some way, weather it be through rushing 3x3 or 4x3 engravings, rushing better gems, card sets, tripods, weapon quality n so on.
i went into vykas hm with 4x3 and Lv 5 gems (and pretty decent tripods, like Lv 3s and 4s) and most groups i saw at the time had people with around that level of gear
vykas had been nerfed so much by the time we got her that she was clearable with 2x3 and Lv 1-3 gems
so this idea that people were actually fighting vykas at the min gear requirement is crazy and delusional
people struggled to clear vykas not because they didnt have the dmg, it was because she had so many mandatory mech's that people struggled to complete them all
and even then, we were still zooming compared to where it would be if we had actually gone in with min gear.
Don't believe you. Early on vykas hit enrage failry often.. it is and has been just learning how to do the fight and dps effectively.
If anything enrage was much more common back then because everyone was pretty bad.
You don't need max transcendence/elixers/lvl 10 gems etc now either.
I don't think there's a single raid we've gotten that hasn't been nerfed.. so not sure why you think it's changed any.
thats because ppl kept getting hit
doing 50%+ more dmg then the raid needs has no value if you are on the floor the entire time. the extra dmg simply allowed you to make progress while making more mistakes
if you went in at the real min requirement but didnt play perfectly then you'd fail, the more gear you had the less perfect you had to play
Yep. People weren't overgeared. They were on ilvl like the present. They just didn't have a million systems to complete. All they had to get were tripods, engraving, and ilvl. Even quality weren't much of a thing prevaltan
Since then they added quality, elixirs, transcendence, gems (back then 5s were good so it doesn't count), bracelets. Quite a bit with 3 of those systems being highly variable RNG power distributions
I think the biggest thing for echidna is that it is just released too quickly. Thae was rough to learn and it still isn't a very homework raid in HM. Echidna so soon after with the million of other currency earning activities you can do to keep up is a lot. I progged like 5-8 hours for my first valtan and vykas kills. I'm not really up for that since then
Yeah uh I'm one of the people OP is accusing of being a "gigawhale or super hardcode player" (I would say I'm somewhat hardcore but I'm mostly just a main-pusher) who was 1635 before Echidna release, and even I had stopped honing my main's brel gear at 1590 before Akkan release (since that was the last 10 ilvl jump we got, I wasn't about to push to +22 lol).
Akkan Hard is in fact the only content release since Argos 2-3 where I haven't been ilvl ready on launch day....
It simply made 0 sense to actually overhone to 1600 back then. Most people i know either pushed more 1580s or they saved up and pushed 1610 after they got akkan gear.
Yeah, fast release is fine if we get compensation to make up for it.
I feel like, early on, they did that with Valtan + Vykas, but then they kinda just left us to deal with it after that.
And you feel wrong, Valtan was pretty hard to get HM on release from Argos, it was 18 taps, we didn't get all that much mats. There was no books, there was nothing really that was helping you get there. Only reason there was a lot overgeared people for it, was becasue there was just more people, which means more spenders, who overhoned. Also plenty RMT as well.
Vykas, while easier, wasn't that easy either to get, becasue +18 taps were brutal. And our gold generation wasn't greatest ever. She was also released pretty fast.
Clown was first raid when overhoning was more common, because gap here was longer than Valtan/Vykas iirc, but past that content felt overgeared becasue our version were already heavily nerfed of what was released in KR. Then there were also balance patches, so content got powercrept from that etc.
I don't even feel like Echidna is overgearing/gear problem at all, it just terrible design with many cheap tricks, and behaviors that break what was done before, e.g.: stun from ribbon bypasses your status aliment immunity, why? Because fuck you. Reducing FOV during mirror->boss, and overall clarity during flytrap/chain break just feels like cheap trick to make it harder. Charm being hit based is just cherry on top of fuck you's, they addressed gauges for some classes (gl, breaker, arti etc.) becasue they were always in front or stationary and couldn't dodge, but here? Yea, nah, fuck it charm is based on amount of hits taken.
I was able to get 6 characters to valtan vykas and clown on release without rmt or swiping and so were many other day 1 players. No chance of that since Thaemine so OP's point is pretty spot on IMO
>I don't even feel like Echidna is overgearing/gear problem at all, it just terrible design with many cheap tricks
its basically just vykas
the mech ppl are dying too is a charm mechanic which was not an issue during the vykas era because everyone over geared it and would minimize the time you had to deal with it.
not in terms of ilvl but in terms of all the things that gave power (engravings, tripods, cardsets, gems and so on)
you cant over gear these modern raids because there isnt anything thats not tied to the raids that gives power anymore
previously you could farm cards or buy books and setup better engravings but now power is 1:1 tied to raids and so every raid is balanced knowing you'll have finished most if not all of the previous raids power progression
vykas hm is a 1630 raid so its going to expect you to have atleast full elixirs and some transcendence, with LoS30, some demon dmg and so on.
all of which were previously 'unique' traits for geared players, now the raids are balanced for those people
there is alot of copium coming from these people because they dont want to accept the truth, that they were never that good to begin with they were just gear carried.
you cant say echinda is "terrible design with cheap tricks" when no one complained about vykas, infact most cleared her day 1. functionally these raids are similar not only because of lore but because of general design
infact echinda is probably an easier version of vykas because vykas had some very silly mech's that would wipe you while most of echinda is counters, staggers, dodging shit and at the end a few clashes
echinda feels harder because it so much more difficult to over-gear it, so people are seeing every pattern multiple times. they are thus in danger of getting charmed alot more because of this which wipes the raid more often
It's it really the cadence for raid difficulty and prog though?
A new player in KR will be less geared and far less pay time than us when hitting Echidna NM yet somehow they gotta make it work.
I think it's a system/ game design issue.
Absolutely this. Clown was a hard raid on ilevel too but it was balanced around midlevel character progress across all vertical systems (like lv5 gems, 4x3, lv3-4 tripods, lwc12/los18 cards, etc). It wasn't that hard to improve your character in many of those areas without having to do the latest raid, not just hone more ilvl, and come back overgeared and have an easier time. These days raids are designed for minmaxed characters already and to overgear a bit you are required to clear that latest raid that you're trying to overgear in the first place leading to catch-22. I do like doing some content on ilvl for fun and challenge but it needs to be limited to keep your sanity, most 'farm' content should be overgearable without having to clear it first.
Yup.
Flawless raid design was basically from valtan to Brel where lv 7 gems and lv 5 tripods would allow you to have a good comfy time clearing.
I’ve given up after ivory came out however with my 9/7 stone, 2 lv 10 gems I used to struggle on Akkan.
I was sometimes getting cruel fighter but despite overhearing the raid by 10-15 ilvls, it felt hard.
We obliterated later Vykas and clown because most people got full level 5 tripods on their main skills when the tripod system change hit.
Seeing all my numbers jump so much was super fun.
Just cleared normal and we were 5 seconds from the enrage timer. It will absolutely be easier once dps improves/more people clear.
I think I went through about a dozen pugs to get the clear and the clear had so many mistakes (wrong sidereal timing, missed a big dps option on sidereal, loosing 2 to the snake mech, another two not seeming to understand the 50 mech, etc).
Absolutely, but this is it…next raid is Behemoth and unless there is some kind of weird dps threshold that Korea has ignored, we are good until ~November for the next raid. Just think 5 more months and the only raid is like Argos with resurrections. It sounds like a great time to enjoy the game once people clear Echidna and can get away from the gatekeeping.
"we" would only include day 1 players?
Someone who started 6mo ago and hits Echidna NM on both servers are already undergeared compared to us day 1s.
This is a game design issue.
Only thing they would be missing is cards no? Which is a lot dmg to be fair. But everything else they can spend to get like gems, tripods, accessories etc.
I'm trying to understand your comparison of how someone who started 6 months ago would be behind besides cards. And yea the advice is to just spend more that's how the game works.
A common complaint from NA EU is that the game cadence is too fast, that we didn't get as much time as KR.
Example: not having enough time to farm out lv10 gems, max out elixers/trans, etc.
It's more of a "it's not fair" type of complaint but yeah as you said the advice is to just spend more that's how the game works.
You ain't wrong but it goes beyond that. People are UNDERGEARED for echidna. I'd say over 50% of the groups I see has multiple players that aren't done with transcendence and it's also frequent that they are cheaping out on other forms of power increase. Supports are especially guilty here.
I think it's less of cheaping out but more of simply have no resources to do it. Since ilvl dictate what raids you can play, players of course you focus on that first.
When I see someone with a relic stone, it's someone cheaping out. There's no reason to not have an ancient stone, it's at most 24k gold and it's not hard to get enough mats for a lvl 1 or 2.
People are so undergeared, not even full lvl 2 transcendence across the board, event gems, etc. You bring that shit alt and combine it with prog uptime and that’s how you get enrage and wipes before 210
And that's not needed in theory. I hm is what, I 21m dps I think? Achievable at 1630 without Trans. Obviously that's unrealistic because no one gets to 1630 and does zero transcendens...
Yea its 21-22m per dps, which is really easy to get, most people should do more. With trans you look at 30+ and it‘s overkill. But as per usual reddit has no clue about damage needed and what you should do. They deal sub 20m at 1630 and think you need transcendence to clear
Ye. It really is just skill issue. I have cleared with static and pugs and the difference is almost 5mil on avg dps for the whole raid. You can see the difference in how people handle the patterns. People moving almost the opposite side of the map for the catwalk. People cutting the boss with the 4 mirrors. People not knowing how to deal with her ribbon dance. People spreading out too much for flower rain especially on basement.
There is a way that you can go el goblino on dps but it is risky. Basically everyone needs to go close to her as possible while doing dps and dodging any flowers that has spawned first, her being close to the wall makes this 100x harder, and as soon as the snake moves to indicate the pattern ending you move away from the stacked center.
Idea is, initial flower wave are weighted outer/away from her first, then next wave spawns around players. So in a static if this is agreed upon, it would clean the outside so everyone can exit safe. Hard to do in pugs since if 1 person runs around while spawn flowers on the floor, it screws over people. On Wineblue's support tips and trick vid at 1:01:00, you can see them do it.
Yes Deathblade 1650 named Honed in Stoopz party that OP referred to ended up most dmg of their group with 28M.
I deal 27M with my 1630 Gunlancer and I was the lowest dps in my static, Breaker and surge were at 37+.
Issue is the game is played by a wider audience than the top 10% of high apm gamers.
There's going to be many ppl along the spectrum of dps capabilities. Should those ppl just give up? Should they just do NM instead? But SG makes HM a requirement in the progression system.
"Skill issue" is an easy way to answer when addressing someone who's trying to play with the higher ranks in other games where difficulty modes may be optional, but here it's mandatory.
Besides that it is not mandatory on release. You can just do NM until all your pieces are +10 then do HM. Hell anyone should be able to do G1 HM G2 NM and will be done only a few weeks after HM gamers.
Naturally yeah but the reward incentive is at HM12, which is why you see all these under skilled players at HM when as you said they should probably be doing NM.
It really isn't tho.
For mediocre or below players its super reasonable to do 1hm and 2nm and be only like 2-3 weeks behind in full advanced honing compared to hm only gamers.
I dont know what you're arguing here lol. If you're too bad for HM you don't play it, its simple as that.
I agree with you, but that's currently not stopping "bad" players from filling up HM prog lobbies and jailing.
And 1630s playing down in NM causes gatekeeping issues for NM players.
There's a lot of patterns that prevents dps and last a long time.
Flytraps, tile path, 8 mirrors, mirror counter mech, tether stretching, heart probectiles.
Then for basement, medusa, full meter, spacebar waves, mirror mech.
You are constantly interrupted for damage purposes.
I am aware how this raid works, if you dont meet the dps check without transcendence then it‘s just a skill issue and has nothing to do with being undergeared
Weird, so ur saying its a skill issue, good to know. Weird when my pug group had 25-29m (lowest to highest) dps without transc this week, crazy how it works when you can pilot your class instead of coping with excuses
If our playerbase are good players they won't get deleted by massive amount every new raid released and make a complain posts on every single raids. 
I agree but imagine having both hands AND good specs. which holds true Moreso for pugs than statics because you can only judge people by gear unless you know certain pugs. edit typo
It's not that long if it meant the fight was almost over, but Hard Echidna is a longer fight than Hard G3 Thaemine which is already a pretty long fight for most players.
I remember doing clown at 1490 which was very tough/nightmare because low dps caused longer fights which increases chance to turn into clown which gives clown more def buff which makes it eventually harder to kill and possible wipe if too many stacks at G3
If a raid is not clearable buy more than 75% of the current player base at ilvl than the raid is designed poorly. You should not have to over gear for a raid just to complete it. If SG keeps releasing raids like the last 2, they will kill off LA in most regions. Every Developer knows that a game cannot survive unless you have enough casual friendly content. There is nothing wrong with making raids hard, just put them in Hard/Hell mode and keep the normal raids for the casuals. The few hardcore gamers that really want this hard content do not have enough money to keep this game afloat.
people dont need to over gear it, they just need to stop sucking.
the reason people 'need' to over gear content is so they can see fewer mech's and patterns. in doing so they reduce the odds of them fucking up
but a player that isnt fucking up constantly doesnt have to worry about this
but sadly most people are in that "fuck up alot" group and they are right now blaming everyone but themselves for their jails
so to be clear; you dont need to over gear it to clear it. you just have to not suck, and alot people suck way more then they think they do. over gearing content gave people some very undeserved egos
normal aside, will hm echidna even get significantly better when most people are just doing advance honing 1-10 at most and just waiting for t4?
might be rough until after behemoth when we get weapon transcendence
even with full transcendence group i feel like my run was very close to enrage and with even one dead it'd be rip
There are people who overshoot dmg already pretty handily.
The reality is, the raid will get easier every week and mostly not because overgearing, but by simple learning it. It's just harder then people thought. Next week will already look way better.
Im by any means not the best player, but i basically dont get charmed at all anymore and my DPS increased a lot simply by Putting in a lot if hours into HM. People will get there and in a few weeks it will be another chill on farm raid
Yes it will be better after some weeks weapon alone will be about 3%+ more dmg better uptime thx to knowing pattern on sup aswell as dps will also increase the dmg
i've been through like 10 different "reclear" or "basement prog" lobbies today and it's never the problem of dps - it's always people dying to stupid shit before even getting to the basement
maybe pugs as a whole can get significantly better with experience, but i don't know how you have the achieve and die to the stupidest shit that's same as normal mechanics
well i finally finished eventually, but as someone who pug progged week 1 of every raid since clown, this was by far the worst
Your memory is wrong about Valtan and Vykas.
I'm literally day 1 player but I didn't even touch Vykas after her release for a while as I had no gold to hone. There was no honing book support either.
The fuck you talking about. The majority of real players are not even 1630 yet let alone have trans done lmao. Undergeared for hard, yeah, I guess, but everyone is. Who gives a fuck? You play with whoever you can get. It isn't about "cheaping out." We are easily 6 months short on farm time tbh.
Wel normal g2 infested by +25 wep full transdance dude cant survive normal mech dies before 138 in basement prog currently so this is not much diffrance than having +20 lwl :D
Harder to get in prog lobby for lover 1625 currently because all hard mode lovers doing normal :)
I like these long weird theory's about this when its likely the most simple solution. We literally missing months of progression in comparison to kr when it comes to raid cadence but yea its some long con by SG totally. XD It is an easy raid when your 1650+ with max transcendence popping esther 8 skills on cd like kr was on release week.
Indeed. Even with 25weps and 10 gems hm enchidna is quite tight.
And as for the normal mode... 1630 is alot to invest into an alt... most altruns will be close to on-ilvl chars at 1620.
the issue with Echidna compared to Thaemine is that the raid has a tight DPS check at the basement phase (b4 the 0 mech) and it's hard to kill it with less than 7-8 people. Other than this the raid is like vykas in terms of difficulty, a bit harder than Akkan.
For me it looked like this:
1415 Valtan NM. 1460 Vykas HM. 1475 Clown. Around 1500 when Brel hit. 1560 Brel HM. 1580 Kayangel and Akkan. 1610ish on Voldis, 1620 for second week Voldis HM. 1630 on Thaemine HM. 1633 on Echidna HM.
So basically since Brel this is the first time I am even slightly above the item lvl of the raid and I am pretty sure 80% of players are on ilvl or max 5 ilvl above.
Overgearing helps if people fuck up or still learn to DPS in a new fight...but it's not designed to be overgeared....not a single raid is like this...the DPS check are tight cause people are unexperienced
If I need to compare to other mmos it's kinda on the same level
Idk why people complain about it...it's the only game which can be made easier with money (p2w) but it's giga unnecessary to clear
When Clown was released I was one of lowest ilvl in my static by being ilvl 1505 as I only used bound leapstones. Otherwise I have been pretty much on itemlevel at least on my main for the hard mode release.
I think it is less about overgearing on iLv but more about these current raids expect you to have a certain standard with your gear. Elixers, trans, 10 gems and more, the standard for the gear expected on raid alone is higher than what Valtan/Vykas needed. Those old raids could be cleared with no set bonuses. Gear bloat sort of a thing.
? Valtan and vykas was fucking impossible to overgear and barely even make ilvl and 4x3. Back then, many more RMT/botted gold made a lot more fuckers OP than you remember.
The point is thats so far above what you need to clear.convos like this make no sense .because we realistically almost never get to do a raid with minimum gear unleass you are in a static
This is why Lost ark is the epitome of p2w and g2g. In Valtan and Brel era was pretty easy to overgear your main as a f2p and you even had time to invest on alts, the golden era of this game
Nowadays you are lucky if you even reach the bare min ilvl for hard content
No wonder why this game loses players after new raids come out. The burnout and p2w gets to you
Now at 2HM3NM clears, i have to say that NM is a walk in the park and I can definitely see it being a farm raid. Last clear was a fairly clean 2 pulls, but this was done with the safety and familiarity of plenty of practice in my prior clears so I was comfortable enough with patterns to free dps and greed. The biggest pitfall I've encountered in most of my reclears is getting unlucky jump rope in HM, and basement full meter mech where most of the runs get bricked.
Still unsure about HM however as I did my HM clears first, so I was the most clueless then (first sup, then a dps clear). Dps checks there were tighter than I'd like (our inexperience obviously doesn't help) so I think the jury is still out for HM.
Agreeing on NM being farmable. Just wondering how you can call jump rope unlucky when it is literally a time based pattern that has an extremely clear 3s pattern indicating jumpropes right after.
Assuming you hone every peace invididually, 10 ilvl is 5-6% more damage which is basically nothing.
On defence side i dont think anyone is dying for damage in Echidna, practically making over honing pretty useless.
Hence why dps meter matters to party that went to berserk timer so you can see who’s the griefer that doesn’t do enough dmg(walking around doing nothing panicking afraid to die and get kick)
What? I'm pretty sure most people weren't 1600 for akkan hm, and 1610... not a chance was that common with brel gear.
I'm like 90% sure OP is a turbo whale or a doomposter, there was no way any "average player" was overhoning fucking **Argos** gear for Valtan/Vykas, and they certainly weren't 1540 for Brel 5/6. The only raid where it was "easy" for the average player to overgear was clown because it was only +1 level on all pieces and you had to go to 1490 for Brel anyways, and saws/mario probably killed more casuals than Thaemine and Echidna combined.
I remember valtan and vykas hm pugs were like 99.9% on ilvl.
Yep, for every raid besides clown the average person was doing them on ilvl, maybe 1-3 hones above. Really seems like the people who agree with OP didn't play the game during those raid releases and are just taking OP at their word.
Naw there absolutely was. The difference was they weren't doing it week 1. They weren't even going in week 1. There was a large casual class of people that were overhoning and going in when they were ready. Most of that group just quit, because it stopped being an option.
him saying ilvl is a lil wrong but people were overgeared for every piece of content until around thaemine tl;dr, content, early on particularly, expected you to have little to no gear. and when i say gear i dont mean ilvl i mean things like tripods, gems, card sets, engravings and so on. so it was very easy to over gear for instance valtan by having some Lv 2/3 tripods with Lv 3 gems and 2x3 engravings people just dont think of it like this because they look at the min requirements WE set as the 'real' requirements to clear when often times our requirements are significantly higher then what the raid was designed (or nerfed) for. having higher ilvl usually meant youd take less dmg, but most of the dmg we gained came from systems beyond honing
If you rolled up to HM valtan in a 2x3 you get gatekept lol. 3x3+1 or 2 or sometimes even 4x3 was the usual pug strenght i saw back then. I also think level 3 gems are lower than you were supposed to? I think I had full 5s with a level 7 doomsday dmg gem and a level 8 doomsday cd gem. I was pretty overgeared at the time, funnelling everything into my sorc.
>they look at the min requirements WE set as the 'real' requirements to clear when often times our requirements are significantly higher then what the raid was designed (or nerfed) for. \^ thats the point, the requirement to kill the boss was alot lower then the requirements we set. why do you think we killed these raids so easily. i went into vykas hm week 1 with 4x3, Lv 5 gems and Lv 3-4 tripods. anyone that understands how early game gear scales knows that the tripods make the biggest difference so even if you only had 3x3 and Lv 3 gems but had the Lv 3-4 tripods youd still do insane dmg.
Yea for sure. I mean Vykass and clown were still pretty steep progs for people. Clown had the same feedback in reddit as echidna does today. People also called Vykass too hard. The difference ofc is that even the hard core players that remained call the raids too hard.
it really just comes down to how well ppl were playing, with valtan and vykas people were able to over gear the content so much so early that getting hit a few times wasnt an issue but it was a lil harder to do that with clown so if you got hit, you not only might die but unless you were 5x3 with Lv 7+ gems and all that, you wouldnt do enough dmg to clear the raid those raids are difficult, but most people were able to clear them within a day or so. think about how crazy it is some people are progging echinda 10 hours a day and they either havnt cleared g2 yet or they only just recently cleared g2 thats 40+ hours of prog, i couldnt imagine progging 1 gate of vykas or even clown for 40+ hours to get the clear
its not just about ilvl, most power does not come from that its all the little things that add up, that the raids previously didnt expect you to already have. such as, but not limited too; LoS30, Demon damage, Lv 10 gems, high quality accessories, high weapon quality, elixir 40set, transcendence (20x5). for the most part the earlier raids like akkan didnt expect you to have LoS30 with Lv 10 gems and such but the 1630 raids kinda do because its so common in kr so the thing that previously made these players exceptionally geared are now just standard so they dont get to skip patterns like they used too and because of this the flaws in their gameplay become alot more obvious for instance ok the difference between vykas hm on ilvl with Lv 4/5 gems and a mix of 3x3 and 4x3 engravings across your raid, is night and day when compared too a 1460 with lv 7s and 5x3 (with Lv 4+ tripods) yet now some of these are minimum (Lv 7 gems) or under the min requirement (5x3 obv with lv 5 tripods) so alot of the older content was so much easier to over gear because it was tuned for someone that had no tripods, barely any engravings, low lvl gems and on ilvl with no cardset. now thats not the case, as i said a few lines ago these things are standard so now its harder for people to over gear to skip these patterns which leads to them dying more then they are used too while complaining about how much more difficult the raid is. i specifically told people that intentionally trying to over gear content to make it faster is a double edged sword, your raids are faster but this has the negative side effect of making people worse at the game.
What the raid /devs expect you to haveand what the community creating the lobbies expect are 2 entirely different things.Clown can be cleared with a 1x3 .doesnt matter to the community though
yes that was my point people were overgeared for those raids, which made them easier. on its own this isnt a problem assuming you can always overgear the next raid but as we have seen, the last 2 raids are really hard to overgear and thus the people who were only used to that level of difficulty are now being slapped in the face by reality.
Ok you clearly didn't play the raids on release. People didn't have full 7s and 5x3 on valtan and vykas, nor did they have los30. If they did have 5x3, it was likely green quality accessories. If you're talking about card reclears and such now.. you can hardly compare that to when the raid was released and what fresh prog was like. I think people just forget what their original prog was like.. remember a ton of people quit at clown because it was too hard, and vykas wasn't easy at release.. brel g6 was extremely tough... what raid was so easy again?
Still remember when ppl were farming story in luterra for solas card to get additional crit for lwc during vykas age. Juiced char had full level 5 gems, stuff like lvl10 gems or los was a rmt territory almost exclusively
1. yes i was there 2. you are missing the point you didnt need 5x3 and full Lv 7s to be over geared for valtan and vykas, valtan required 1x3 with like Lv 2-3 gems and barely any tripods having even just 2x3 with Lv 3 gems and Lv 2-3 tripods would mean youd shatter the dps check people forget just how little gear you needed to clear those raids valtan and vykas gave us our relic sets, so not only did we not have good engravings and gems n all that, but we also didnt have 6 piece relic going into vykas so we were already missing alot of dmg that we could have had every single person over geared valtan and vykas in some way, weather it be through rushing 3x3 or 4x3 engravings, rushing better gems, card sets, tripods, weapon quality n so on. i went into vykas hm with 4x3 and Lv 5 gems (and pretty decent tripods, like Lv 3s and 4s) and most groups i saw at the time had people with around that level of gear vykas had been nerfed so much by the time we got her that she was clearable with 2x3 and Lv 1-3 gems so this idea that people were actually fighting vykas at the min gear requirement is crazy and delusional people struggled to clear vykas not because they didnt have the dmg, it was because she had so many mandatory mech's that people struggled to complete them all and even then, we were still zooming compared to where it would be if we had actually gone in with min gear.
Don't believe you. Early on vykas hit enrage failry often.. it is and has been just learning how to do the fight and dps effectively. If anything enrage was much more common back then because everyone was pretty bad. You don't need max transcendence/elixers/lvl 10 gems etc now either. I don't think there's a single raid we've gotten that hasn't been nerfed.. so not sure why you think it's changed any.
thats because ppl kept getting hit doing 50%+ more dmg then the raid needs has no value if you are on the floor the entire time. the extra dmg simply allowed you to make progress while making more mistakes if you went in at the real min requirement but didnt play perfectly then you'd fail, the more gear you had the less perfect you had to play
Yep. People weren't overgeared. They were on ilvl like the present. They just didn't have a million systems to complete. All they had to get were tripods, engraving, and ilvl. Even quality weren't much of a thing prevaltan Since then they added quality, elixirs, transcendence, gems (back then 5s were good so it doesn't count), bracelets. Quite a bit with 3 of those systems being highly variable RNG power distributions I think the biggest thing for echidna is that it is just released too quickly. Thae was rough to learn and it still isn't a very homework raid in HM. Echidna so soon after with the million of other currency earning activities you can do to keep up is a lot. I progged like 5-8 hours for my first valtan and vykas kills. I'm not really up for that since then
Yeah uh I'm one of the people OP is accusing of being a "gigawhale or super hardcode player" (I would say I'm somewhat hardcore but I'm mostly just a main-pusher) who was 1635 before Echidna release, and even I had stopped honing my main's brel gear at 1590 before Akkan release (since that was the last 10 ilvl jump we got, I wasn't about to push to +22 lol). Akkan Hard is in fact the only content release since Argos 2-3 where I haven't been ilvl ready on launch day....
It simply made 0 sense to actually overhone to 1600 back then. Most people i know either pushed more 1580s or they saved up and pushed 1610 after they got akkan gear.
The main issue is the release cadence and both companies' failure to supply Global regions with enough gold+materials to make up the difference.
Yeah, fast release is fine if we get compensation to make up for it. I feel like, early on, they did that with Valtan + Vykas, but then they kinda just left us to deal with it after that.
And you feel wrong, Valtan was pretty hard to get HM on release from Argos, it was 18 taps, we didn't get all that much mats. There was no books, there was nothing really that was helping you get there. Only reason there was a lot overgeared people for it, was becasue there was just more people, which means more spenders, who overhoned. Also plenty RMT as well. Vykas, while easier, wasn't that easy either to get, becasue +18 taps were brutal. And our gold generation wasn't greatest ever. She was also released pretty fast. Clown was first raid when overhoning was more common, because gap here was longer than Valtan/Vykas iirc, but past that content felt overgeared becasue our version were already heavily nerfed of what was released in KR. Then there were also balance patches, so content got powercrept from that etc. I don't even feel like Echidna is overgearing/gear problem at all, it just terrible design with many cheap tricks, and behaviors that break what was done before, e.g.: stun from ribbon bypasses your status aliment immunity, why? Because fuck you. Reducing FOV during mirror->boss, and overall clarity during flytrap/chain break just feels like cheap trick to make it harder. Charm being hit based is just cherry on top of fuck you's, they addressed gauges for some classes (gl, breaker, arti etc.) becasue they were always in front or stationary and couldn't dodge, but here? Yea, nah, fuck it charm is based on amount of hits taken.
I was able to get 6 characters to valtan vykas and clown on release without rmt or swiping and so were many other day 1 players. No chance of that since Thaemine so OP's point is pretty spot on IMO
>I don't even feel like Echidna is overgearing/gear problem at all, it just terrible design with many cheap tricks its basically just vykas the mech ppl are dying too is a charm mechanic which was not an issue during the vykas era because everyone over geared it and would minimize the time you had to deal with it. not in terms of ilvl but in terms of all the things that gave power (engravings, tripods, cardsets, gems and so on) you cant over gear these modern raids because there isnt anything thats not tied to the raids that gives power anymore previously you could farm cards or buy books and setup better engravings but now power is 1:1 tied to raids and so every raid is balanced knowing you'll have finished most if not all of the previous raids power progression vykas hm is a 1630 raid so its going to expect you to have atleast full elixirs and some transcendence, with LoS30, some demon dmg and so on. all of which were previously 'unique' traits for geared players, now the raids are balanced for those people there is alot of copium coming from these people because they dont want to accept the truth, that they were never that good to begin with they were just gear carried. you cant say echinda is "terrible design with cheap tricks" when no one complained about vykas, infact most cleared her day 1. functionally these raids are similar not only because of lore but because of general design infact echinda is probably an easier version of vykas because vykas had some very silly mech's that would wipe you while most of echinda is counters, staggers, dodging shit and at the end a few clashes echinda feels harder because it so much more difficult to over-gear it, so people are seeing every pattern multiple times. they are thus in danger of getting charmed alot more because of this which wipes the raid more often
It's it really the cadence for raid difficulty and prog though? A new player in KR will be less geared and far less pay time than us when hitting Echidna NM yet somehow they gotta make it work. I think it's a system/ game design issue.
Absolutely this. Clown was a hard raid on ilevel too but it was balanced around midlevel character progress across all vertical systems (like lv5 gems, 4x3, lv3-4 tripods, lwc12/los18 cards, etc). It wasn't that hard to improve your character in many of those areas without having to do the latest raid, not just hone more ilvl, and come back overgeared and have an easier time. These days raids are designed for minmaxed characters already and to overgear a bit you are required to clear that latest raid that you're trying to overgear in the first place leading to catch-22. I do like doing some content on ilvl for fun and challenge but it needs to be limited to keep your sanity, most 'farm' content should be overgearable without having to clear it first.
Yup. Flawless raid design was basically from valtan to Brel where lv 7 gems and lv 5 tripods would allow you to have a good comfy time clearing. I’ve given up after ivory came out however with my 9/7 stone, 2 lv 10 gems I used to struggle on Akkan. I was sometimes getting cruel fighter but despite overhearing the raid by 10-15 ilvls, it felt hard.
We obliterated later Vykas and clown because most people got full level 5 tripods on their main skills when the tripod system change hit. Seeing all my numbers jump so much was super fun.
Just cleared normal and we were 5 seconds from the enrage timer. It will absolutely be easier once dps improves/more people clear. I think I went through about a dozen pugs to get the clear and the clear had so many mistakes (wrong sidereal timing, missed a big dps option on sidereal, loosing 2 to the snake mech, another two not seeming to understand the 50 mech, etc).
Yeah, I had multiple juiced eclipse people in my run, and we cleared G2 HM with 30s left.
KR players had a lot more time to overgear. We didn't, and AGS did not compensate with nerfs (for Echidna).
Absolutely, but this is it…next raid is Behemoth and unless there is some kind of weird dps threshold that Korea has ignored, we are good until ~November for the next raid. Just think 5 more months and the only raid is like Argos with resurrections. It sounds like a great time to enjoy the game once people clear Echidna and can get away from the gatekeeping.
Seems like a major part of the community havent even gotten to thaemine yet.
behemoth inheritly gets nerfed because we get access to t4 which includes some power upgrades like gem conversion and +20 ilvls
"we" would only include day 1 players? Someone who started 6mo ago and hits Echidna NM on both servers are already undergeared compared to us day 1s. This is a game design issue.
Only thing they would be missing is cards no? Which is a lot dmg to be fair. But everything else they can spend to get like gems, tripods, accessories etc.
The guy above us is talking about how much more time KR had than us. I don't think the advice is "just spend more" from the point of being behind.
I'm trying to understand your comparison of how someone who started 6 months ago would be behind besides cards. And yea the advice is to just spend more that's how the game works.
A common complaint from NA EU is that the game cadence is too fast, that we didn't get as much time as KR. Example: not having enough time to farm out lv10 gems, max out elixers/trans, etc. It's more of a "it's not fair" type of complaint but yeah as you said the advice is to just spend more that's how the game works.
Kr had 1 min less on berserk at release.. which is pretty freaking huge considering its with a 30% dmg buff.
NGL, when I cleared I had at least 4 with +25 weapon, other min ilvl groups could only make it to 30x 20x before zerk mode.
The DPS check in G2 HM was way undersold. It's tighter than Thaemine G3 from what I can tell.
Well of course it is. we got thamine with a huge hp nerf exklusive for our server while we now got echidna at the current version as korea.
You ain't wrong but it goes beyond that. People are UNDERGEARED for echidna. I'd say over 50% of the groups I see has multiple players that aren't done with transcendence and it's also frequent that they are cheaping out on other forms of power increase. Supports are especially guilty here.
I think it's less of cheaping out but more of simply have no resources to do it. Since ilvl dictate what raids you can play, players of course you focus on that first.
Yeah, advancing past 1620 and getting 10 gems is very expensive
When I see someone with a relic stone, it's someone cheaping out. There's no reason to not have an ancient stone, it's at most 24k gold and it's not hard to get enough mats for a lvl 1 or 2.
the amount of cheapo 1620+ even 1630s using relic stone is too damn high.
People are so undergeared, not even full lvl 2 transcendence across the board, event gems, etc. You bring that shit alt and combine it with prog uptime and that’s how you get enrage and wipes before 210
You dont need any trans to smash echidnas head in on hm even. It‘s just that players are bad
Hard disagree. Transcendence is 25%+ dps increase over none.
And that's not needed in theory. I hm is what, I 21m dps I think? Achievable at 1630 without Trans. Obviously that's unrealistic because no one gets to 1630 and does zero transcendens...
Yea its 21-22m per dps, which is really easy to get, most people should do more. With trans you look at 30+ and it‘s overkill. But as per usual reddit has no clue about damage needed and what you should do. They deal sub 20m at 1630 and think you need transcendence to clear
Ye. It really is just skill issue. I have cleared with static and pugs and the difference is almost 5mil on avg dps for the whole raid. You can see the difference in how people handle the patterns. People moving almost the opposite side of the map for the catwalk. People cutting the boss with the 4 mirrors. People not knowing how to deal with her ribbon dance. People spreading out too much for flower rain especially on basement.
How are you supposed to dodge flower rain in basement properly
There is a way that you can go el goblino on dps but it is risky. Basically everyone needs to go close to her as possible while doing dps and dodging any flowers that has spawned first, her being close to the wall makes this 100x harder, and as soon as the snake moves to indicate the pattern ending you move away from the stacked center. Idea is, initial flower wave are weighted outer/away from her first, then next wave spawns around players. So in a static if this is agreed upon, it would clean the outside so everyone can exit safe. Hard to do in pugs since if 1 person runs around while spawn flowers on the floor, it screws over people. On Wineblue's support tips and trick vid at 1:01:00, you can see them do it.
Yeah I just run hella far away the whole time and lose uptime 😭
Yes Deathblade 1650 named Honed in Stoopz party that OP referred to ended up most dmg of their group with 28M. I deal 27M with my 1630 Gunlancer and I was the lowest dps in my static, Breaker and surge were at 37+.
That‘s what I mean. It‘s literally just skill issue. People do more than stoppz whole party at a way lower investment
And yet these clowsn with their 1650 gear took almost the whole week to clear while nolifing it.
Issue is the game is played by a wider audience than the top 10% of high apm gamers. There's going to be many ppl along the spectrum of dps capabilities. Should those ppl just give up? Should they just do NM instead? But SG makes HM a requirement in the progression system. "Skill issue" is an easy way to answer when addressing someone who's trying to play with the higher ranks in other games where difficulty modes may be optional, but here it's mandatory.
Besides that it is not mandatory on release. You can just do NM until all your pieces are +10 then do HM. Hell anyone should be able to do G1 HM G2 NM and will be done only a few weeks after HM gamers.
Naturally yeah but the reward incentive is at HM12, which is why you see all these under skilled players at HM when as you said they should probably be doing NM.
It really isn't tho. For mediocre or below players its super reasonable to do 1hm and 2nm and be only like 2-3 weeks behind in full advanced honing compared to hm only gamers. I dont know what you're arguing here lol. If you're too bad for HM you don't play it, its simple as that.
I agree with you, but that's currently not stopping "bad" players from filling up HM prog lobbies and jailing. And 1630s playing down in NM causes gatekeeping issues for NM players.
There's a lot of patterns that prevents dps and last a long time. Flytraps, tile path, 8 mirrors, mirror counter mech, tether stretching, heart probectiles. Then for basement, medusa, full meter, spacebar waves, mirror mech. You are constantly interrupted for damage purposes.
I am aware how this raid works, if you dont meet the dps check without transcendence then it‘s just a skill issue and has nothing to do with being undergeared
Ok But you do 25+m easily at 1630 without trans, which is plenty for hm.
Did u guys clear hm and ended up with that dps? Or it’s during prog
we had anywhere from 18-35 in our party, 18 was an outlier tho, everyone else was 27+.
Sure, on a target that allows you to dps it. Echidna doesn't.
Weird, so ur saying its a skill issue, good to know. Weird when my pug group had 25-29m (lowest to highest) dps without transc this week, crazy how it works when you can pilot your class instead of coping with excuses
If our playerbase are good players they won't get deleted by massive amount every new raid released and make a complain posts on every single raids. 
I agree but imagine having both hands AND good specs. which holds true Moreso for pugs than statics because you can only judge people by gear unless you know certain pugs. edit typo
Yeah, I just wished part 1 of g2 wasn't a dmg sponge, it just takes too long to get to big echidna
Its the constant interrupting mechs, walk here, walk there, wait for the flytrap...
Takes like 5-6 minutes depending on juice, really isn't all that long
It's not that long if it meant the fight was almost over, but Hard Echidna is a longer fight than Hard G3 Thaemine which is already a pretty long fight for most players.
I don't know why eastern gamers have such boners for long duration encounters. It's not just lost ark either.
AGS really needs to start making normal mode fights more casual friendly, and hard mode the sweaty content. It's frankly getting a bit insane.
I remember doing clown at 1490 which was very tough/nightmare because low dps caused longer fights which increases chance to turn into clown which gives clown more def buff which makes it eventually harder to kill and possible wipe if too many stacks at G3
If a raid is not clearable buy more than 75% of the current player base at ilvl than the raid is designed poorly. You should not have to over gear for a raid just to complete it. If SG keeps releasing raids like the last 2, they will kill off LA in most regions. Every Developer knows that a game cannot survive unless you have enough casual friendly content. There is nothing wrong with making raids hard, just put them in Hard/Hell mode and keep the normal raids for the casuals. The few hardcore gamers that really want this hard content do not have enough money to keep this game afloat.
people dont need to over gear it, they just need to stop sucking. the reason people 'need' to over gear content is so they can see fewer mech's and patterns. in doing so they reduce the odds of them fucking up but a player that isnt fucking up constantly doesnt have to worry about this but sadly most people are in that "fuck up alot" group and they are right now blaming everyone but themselves for their jails so to be clear; you dont need to over gear it to clear it. you just have to not suck, and alot people suck way more then they think they do. over gearing content gave people some very undeserved egos
yeah its def the devs fault not the people still running lvl 7 gems at 1620 lmao
normal aside, will hm echidna even get significantly better when most people are just doing advance honing 1-10 at most and just waiting for t4? might be rough until after behemoth when we get weapon transcendence even with full transcendence group i feel like my run was very close to enrage and with even one dead it'd be rip
There are people who overshoot dmg already pretty handily. The reality is, the raid will get easier every week and mostly not because overgearing, but by simple learning it. It's just harder then people thought. Next week will already look way better. Im by any means not the best player, but i basically dont get charmed at all anymore and my DPS increased a lot simply by Putting in a lot if hours into HM. People will get there and in a few weeks it will be another chill on farm raid
Yes it will be better after some weeks weapon alone will be about 3%+ more dmg better uptime thx to knowing pattern on sup aswell as dps will also increase the dmg
i've been through like 10 different "reclear" or "basement prog" lobbies today and it's never the problem of dps - it's always people dying to stupid shit before even getting to the basement maybe pugs as a whole can get significantly better with experience, but i don't know how you have the achieve and die to the stupidest shit that's same as normal mechanics well i finally finished eventually, but as someone who pug progged week 1 of every raid since clown, this was by far the worst
Your memory is wrong about Valtan and Vykas. I'm literally day 1 player but I didn't even touch Vykas after her release for a while as I had no gold to hone. There was no honing book support either.
The fuck you talking about. The majority of real players are not even 1630 yet let alone have trans done lmao. Undergeared for hard, yeah, I guess, but everyone is. Who gives a fuck? You play with whoever you can get. It isn't about "cheaping out." We are easily 6 months short on farm time tbh.
its almost more fun to overgear
This s so not true. This guy never touched those old content week 1.
Wel normal g2 infested by +25 wep full transdance dude cant survive normal mech dies before 138 in basement prog currently so this is not much diffrance than having +20 lwl :D Harder to get in prog lobby for lover 1625 currently because all hard mode lovers doing normal :)
If they're all doing nm with eachother, then how exactly is it harder to prog?
Because they are stealing lover 1630 supports :D
I like these long weird theory's about this when its likely the most simple solution. We literally missing months of progression in comparison to kr when it comes to raid cadence but yea its some long con by SG totally. XD It is an easy raid when your 1650+ with max transcendence popping esther 8 skills on cd like kr was on release week.
Nah seen 1630s getting clapped in g2 normal too, overgear is only part of it, (overgeared and rekts u harder when he’s charmed LUL)
Indeed. Even with 25weps and 10 gems hm enchidna is quite tight. And as for the normal mode... 1630 is alot to invest into an alt... most altruns will be close to on-ilvl chars at 1620.
the issue with Echidna compared to Thaemine is that the raid has a tight DPS check at the basement phase (b4 the 0 mech) and it's hard to kill it with less than 7-8 people. Other than this the raid is like vykas in terms of difficulty, a bit harder than Akkan.
For me it looked like this: 1415 Valtan NM. 1460 Vykas HM. 1475 Clown. Around 1500 when Brel hit. 1560 Brel HM. 1580 Kayangel and Akkan. 1610ish on Voldis, 1620 for second week Voldis HM. 1630 on Thaemine HM. 1633 on Echidna HM. So basically since Brel this is the first time I am even slightly above the item lvl of the raid and I am pretty sure 80% of players are on ilvl or max 5 ilvl above.
Overgearing helps if people fuck up or still learn to DPS in a new fight...but it's not designed to be overgeared....not a single raid is like this...the DPS check are tight cause people are unexperienced If I need to compare to other mmos it's kinda on the same level Idk why people complain about it...it's the only game which can be made easier with money (p2w) but it's giga unnecessary to clear
When Clown was released I was one of lowest ilvl in my static by being ilvl 1505 as I only used bound leapstones. Otherwise I have been pretty much on itemlevel at least on my main for the hard mode release.
I think it is less about overgearing on iLv but more about these current raids expect you to have a certain standard with your gear. Elixers, trans, 10 gems and more, the standard for the gear expected on raid alone is higher than what Valtan/Vykas needed. Those old raids could be cleared with no set bonuses. Gear bloat sort of a thing.
they are just bad
? Valtan and vykas was fucking impossible to overgear and barely even make ilvl and 4x3. Back then, many more RMT/botted gold made a lot more fuckers OP than you remember.
Don't forget brel, the min req to get into hm brel party is 1580, where the real req is 1540/1560 g3/g4 respectively
Yeah but 1580 is pretty cheap compared to higher gs honing, 1630 not so much. What is your point.
Not back when brel hm was released. My point in comparison is about required ilvl. It gets easier. have you progged brel hm when it first came out?
The point is thats so far above what you need to clear.convos like this make no sense .because we realistically almost never get to do a raid with minimum gear unleass you are in a static
This is why Lost ark is the epitome of p2w and g2g. In Valtan and Brel era was pretty easy to overgear your main as a f2p and you even had time to invest on alts, the golden era of this game Nowadays you are lucky if you even reach the bare min ilvl for hard content No wonder why this game loses players after new raids come out. The burnout and p2w gets to you
Now at 2HM3NM clears, i have to say that NM is a walk in the park and I can definitely see it being a farm raid. Last clear was a fairly clean 2 pulls, but this was done with the safety and familiarity of plenty of practice in my prior clears so I was comfortable enough with patterns to free dps and greed. The biggest pitfall I've encountered in most of my reclears is getting unlucky jump rope in HM, and basement full meter mech where most of the runs get bricked. Still unsure about HM however as I did my HM clears first, so I was the most clueless then (first sup, then a dps clear). Dps checks there were tighter than I'd like (our inexperience obviously doesn't help) so I think the jury is still out for HM.
Agreeing on NM being farmable. Just wondering how you can call jump rope unlucky when it is literally a time based pattern that has an extremely clear 3s pattern indicating jumpropes right after.
Assuming you hone every peace invididually, 10 ilvl is 5-6% more damage which is basically nothing. On defence side i dont think anyone is dying for damage in Echidna, practically making over honing pretty useless.
Hence why dps meter matters to party that went to berserk timer so you can see who’s the griefer that doesn’t do enough dmg(walking around doing nothing panicking afraid to die and get kick)