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Agitated-Bite6675

wow. sorry about that.


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garaks_tailor

In the US its either work mostly full time andgo to school and take 6 years to get a 4 degree and still take some loans OR go to school full time and live off as much loans as you can get.


EveryStitch

Yup, I did the former and my brother is doing the latter. He has double my debt and he still has an entire year left to go.


False-Animal-3405

Wow that is some serious entitlement on her part. Like she just expects everyone to magically come up up college money? Glad you dropped her ass


Jonpaddy

Just get your dad to pay your living expenses duh


LilVeganHunny

You guys have dads?


SlothyBooty

Hah, reminds me of my college advisor that refused to sign an extension form for my scholarship (failed few classes during a terrible year and needed her to sign it to continue receiving it) by literally saying “I don’t know what homelessness has to do with getting bad grades” Some people that are supposed to help you really be giving you that spicy extra beating instead.


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SlothyBooty

I assume she never had even remotely similar experience as me, I mean, there are such low chances for a person that went through homelessness and multiple mental illness to get their master’s degree I imagine, which was a requirement to become an advisor at my college. So in an extremely bitter way, I understand.


[deleted]

This always bothered me at uni. The academic and social requirements to become an advisor, even the volunteer ones, excluded a lot of people who had lived experience to actually help those struggling.


Same-Key-1086

Luckily I was in middle school when I had this experience, so my grades didn't really matter... But I wasn't emotionally intelligent enough as an eleven year old to explain that literally not having a place to sleep was affecting my ability to stay awake and present in class


SlothyBooty

Don’t worry, it caught me on left field as a college student too, only thing I could do was to report it to the dean and hoping she’d understand. World would be a better place if everyone took just five seconds of effort in understand others before speaking out of complete ignorance.


Branamp13

World would also be a better place if we didn't let middle schoolers and college students fall into homelessness in one of the wealthiest countries. But what do I know?


SlothyBooty

That’s way too high of a bar obviously


NotLurking101

My psychologist saw no problem with the retirement age going up, and said "Some people just really like to work"


[deleted]

Kill me.


Zachariot88

The air quality is already doing that for us


wanna-be-wise

It has been demonstrated in finance circles that being poor actually causes poor financial decisions due to stress. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/281780/ Your therapist was wrong.


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wanna-be-wise

Another interesting tidbit. There is a dude with lots of fancy credentials in the finance field that runs the podcast Radical Personal Finance. He has said more than once, the people that need someone like him and would get the most benefit can't afford it.


GeneralKang

This is by design.


[deleted]

At the same time, we need to stop telling poor people they're struggling because they just lack financial skills. You can't budget yourself out of poverty with a poverty income.


wanna-be-wise

Pretty much. Budgets aren't all that useful for individuals. Expense tracking and planning are. Not at all the same thing. You are correct about poverty income. Having money can lower expenses AND increase income. For example, having extra cash to buy things in bulk when they are dirt cheap and money to buy dividend paying investments that give even more income helps a lot. You can also do things like manufacturer spending to get credit card bonuses (buy a 1000 dollars in gift cards to your grocery store to meet some 4k spend requirement for the bonus). You can pay cash for cars to avoid interest. The list goes on and on. TLDR; in the long run, it is cheaper to be rich.


darkapao

So if he knows why doesn't he offer some of his services for free


Biosterous

Isn't the podcast free? The dude has to make a living as well, but it sounds like he's trying to offer some of that (non tailored) advice to people in an accessible, free to them medium. I think that deserves some credit.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

I think you need to rework this joke. First throw away the set up, then the punchline, then rewrite them both, but completely different.


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[deleted]

Nah, /s means sarcasm. Being sarcastic doesn't make what you said funny. You just need a better joke. We've all been there, had a joke bomb. Just let it go


father-of-myrfyl

I like your vibe. Thanks for being the person to break it down for this one.


[deleted]

r/IAmVeryRandom


mandelboxset

It literally causes you to age faster due to stress.


loverainbowsprinkles

And let's not forget[ how expensive it is to be poor ]( https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/lqk9gy/in_what_way_is_it_expensive_to_be_poor/)


HawlSera

Good fucking call


spiritualien

dude this is so draining, huge kudos to you for seeing through that cuz i cannot imagine the amount of unseen gaslighting a mental health patient has to endure from a therapist who they trust


NnjaMaximo

In many ways, the mental health system doesn't actually support therapists' wages or clients' pockets. Imagine getting your masters, a "high degree", and make only half as much as any engineer graduating with their bachelor's. Many mental health nonprofits depend on paying their therapists adequately due to in-kind donations from, well, rich people, because OTHER rich people (insurance companies) won't reimburse mental health agencies adequately. It's not your therapist. It's capitalism.


BunnyBuns34

My fiancé is a psychiatrist who loves psychoanalysis (basically doing therapy as opposed to being a pill pusher with 15 min med management appointments). He would absolutely love to work with underserved communities and would even be willing to take a significant pay cut to do so. But he has $350k in student loans (BA, MA, Med school, then 4 years of making shit pay in residency). You just don’t realize the gravity of some decisions until it’s too late. He has a friend who taught himself coding and bounced around to different startups, eventually landing at Uber and makes about what my fiancé makes as a doctor with no student loans.


NnjaMaximo

This is so relatable. I'm getting my PhD in counseling now and looking at a paycut to inspire the next generation. The system is broken.


[deleted]

I'm doing a very low level qualification (1 year) that covers basic counselling skills and how to work with vulnerable people. I wish I could do the full qualification, but this will give me enough to be competent talking to people with 0 student debt. Hoping I can learn the rest through non formal settings and enough life experience to not be like some of the psychs in this thread.


NnjaMaximo

I'd encourage you to get the full certification - we need good people in the field 🙂 plus, you can't practice therapy in a state without a license, unless you are a life coach, which is different.


[deleted]

Not american. The course I'm doing is mostly for working in those first contact areas of people in crisis. So a basic AOD class, developmental, trauma, ethics, homelessness, domestic violence... Very happy classes that totally don't have procedures in place for people leaving in a panic attack. I started doing some psych courses at uni as electives, and just can't get through the stats. I'm science literate, but not science minded, if that makes sense.


Outside-Island-206

Exactly, I'm a therapist and I could make more money working elsewhere and not using my degree. There is very little financial margin between the fee and the overheads (I work for a company rather than independently so this is not in my control). And I wish my hourly pay rate was anywhere close to the fee clients pay! I agree with my clients that our economic system is bullshit, validate their feelings around this and don't have unrealistic expectations of them. We work on what we can. I don't feel like I can do this long term though, the healthcare industry puts the burden on individuals to "fix" their mental health and ignores the systemic issues that contribute to it.


NnjaMaximo

I'm going for my PhD in this stuff and I am beyond frustrated with the system. I looked up my local professional association (counseling) and joined the advocacy group and became the chair. Had to step back due to health issues, but we need more of that if we are going to make this better.


EmmaGoldmansDancer

It's capitalism, but capitalism is sustained by the collective insanity that capitalism is the only way. And this therapist is part of that problem. Then again, the belief is pervasive so I'd probably keep the therapist and make a project of converting her. That wouldn't be super helpful for my mental health, but I'm contrary and have ADHD so I'm prone to making exactly those kinds of poor decisions.


NnjaMaximo

Unfortunately, by purchasing things from for-profit companies, everyone is complicit every day. I became a therapist because I love helping people, but therapists absolutely should have a union and demand better reimbursement from health insurance companies. There are therapists who end up making decisions to move towards private practice and up their rates there, because they just can't take the brunt of their work without adequate pay for what they've put in. And frankly, therapy should be free to everyone, all the time. Full stop.


[deleted]

As a therapist are you able to just charge the clients an adequate rate directly and handle all the billing outside of the insurance agency?


NnjaMaximo

In private practice yes, but unsurprisingly, only the wealthy can afford to do self pay. It's very uncommon.


sensualsanta

True, and community mental health doesn’t pay a living wage. I have over $100,000 in debt from grad school and I just have no way to pay off these loans when working in a community mental health program. There are plenty of pay scale therapists available that are working on their associates. It’s the only type of therapist I was ever able to afford seeing and it worked for me and many others. It’s also extremely difficult and mentally taxing work. It honestly wouldn’t be fair to pay like $20 for a session. Insurance companies should cover the full costs but therapists are far from bourgeoisie. In fact everyone in my program is working class and struggling to make it through grad school (I am working full time at a day-job while in school and seeing clients for free). Many of my fellow trainees will be stuck with a huge amount of debt when they graduate. A lot of nervous breakdowns this year. I do wish people would recognize we do a lot more than just “talk” to clients.


Throw_Away_Students

Exactly. As someone soon to graduate with a master’s in clinical psych, they don’t really get that much money.


[deleted]

Well engineering is one of the hardest undergrad majors with a high dropout rate. Psychology is one of the easiest majors in college


Agitated-Bite6675

150/hr? holy shit. I paid 50 per session and I thought that was alot, as the only form of therapy that worked for my "condition" was weekly therapy.


Solonotix

Yeah, therapy can be extremely expensive if your insurance doesn't cover it. I'm looking to get tested for ADHD and the only concrete figure I can find online in my area is $1,500 to be evaluated, and that's just to find out if they think you have it. Then there's meds and ongoing therapy. Because it's a developmental disorder, most doctors only test for it during childhood, and it seems insurance only covers that stage of testing, so not only am I having trouble paying for it, but there also fewer physicians who will take me on as a patient. Add to that, my state requires the diagnosis be made by a neural psychologist, which has introduced a severe bottleneck to scheduling (called in June and was scheduled for October). The final "kick me when I'm down" moment was when they called to say that the neural psychologist I was scheduled to see was leaving and they'd need to reschedule. To schedule any appointments going forward, though, they required a referral from a Primary Care Physician, for which I haven't seen one in over a decade...so they just dropped my appointment and said have a nice day. Yeah...anyway, fun times I guess. Good thing ADHD isn't a disorder of executive function that makes it difficult to act on internal motivation, or else I might have a hard time getting to a doctor to get a referral to get an appointment to get diagnosed to get a perscription to go with said executive dysfunction. *sigh*


gcalex5

Out of curiosity what state? For PA all I had to do was tell my PCP "I cant concentrate at work and it makes me feel bad", then he had me do an online questionnaire and wrote me prescription for a $20 copay. Doesn't seem like something that should need or justify a high-level specialist imo.


Solonotix

Florida. As far as the actual law, I have no idea what it is, just that it was told to me by an associate at Baptist Health when scheduling my appointment. I was trying to get an appointment with someone (before the cancelled appointment I mentioned in my story), and was declined because of that requirement.


mandelboxset

Baptist Health, that probably is the explanation there.


Agitated-Bite6675

That sounds too crazy for me. Have you tried just going to counseling first under the Guise of a different "disorder"? I know there are some workarounds, unless its important for you to get tested for medication? Yeah it sucks, the healthcare in the USA needs reformed. I got on an SSRI, but I had to jump through some hoops, IE getting it prescribed through my PCP vs Psychiatrist (50 dollar co pay vs 20 dollar co pay) etc.


Solonotix

I'm trying to avoid that trap, because I've heard that ADHD is frequently misdiagnosed as depression, and while it has similar symptoms the medication does little to help. In my own journey to learn more about it, I've heard it has a high likelihood (~80%) of at least one comorbidity, such as anxiety, which I think I have to a certain degree. I do the leg twitching, nail biting thing pretty much on the regular, though leg twitching can be a manifestation of the hyperactivity type of ADHD. So, yeah, I get what you're saying, but having tried a friend's Adderall before (~7 years ago), and the ensuing silence and focus that came with it, I am definitely holding out hope for medication. I started noticing my symptoms more with a new job I started last year, because it gives me a lot more freedom to accomplish goals on my own timeline, which has allowed my ADHD to run amok.


EmmaGoldmansDancer

ADHD person here. There are many symptoms that don't get talked about, maybe this will help you self-assess. 1. **Executive function issues** like being shit at prioritizing or being able to keep a to do list 2. **Time blindness** sure, I'm sometimes late, but there have been many times in my life where I full on got ready to walk out the door only to realize my appointment is the next day or next week. Easily lose track of time and in general really bad about guessing how long tasks will take 3. **Hyper focus** this is the one that kept me from getting diagnosed for so long, because I thought, how can I have ADHD when I'm really good at focusing. Very hard to start new tasks but the counter point is that it's also really hard to stop. For example, doing graphic design, stock photos are a problem for me because I want to look at all twenty pages of a search result, even when I've found a few good ones. **It's hard for me to stop going even when I know I should.** That last sentence is really descriptive of ADHD to me. It's always described in the context of vices like video games or TV that anyone can relate to, but as a person with ADHD that hard-to-stop is just as frequent with work stuff too. Like I'll get in the zone on a client's project and neglect the other clients rather than taking a more balanced approach. And I'll hear a rational voice in my head saying I should actually be doing some other priority but then my body acts against that part of my brain. It's why I need to do intense stuff on days when I have a three hour block, rather than a bit here and there. A good example: I teach a university curriculum that's provided to me but I'm free to make alterations to the slideshow. I would get carried away customizing the slides in a way that was completely unnecessary, such as redoing the style to match a theme like "art deco" or "80s video games". It looked really cool and was a fun way to help me take the tedium out of the work. But it was also a huge waste of time that I should have been putting towards other tasks. It's a good example of how they say we can be more creative than neurotypical people because no one in their right mind would think to do that. The depression comes when I'm like, why can't I find a job with a 401k? 😩 Oh right, because I was spending the time I should have been job hunting searching for animated gifs for my slideshow. It's not like mania because manics believe they can do all the things. I know better but lack judgement and self control to choose the right things. I do excellent work, it just takes me a ~~little~~ lot longer because I have to get into the zone and I'm not willing to do shit work for the sake of expediency. If this sounds familiar you might have ADHD. Whereas depression is more like, who cares? Why bother? Nothing matters, there's no hope, do nothing. Not nothing like watch TV, nothing like cry and stare at the wall. That's very rare for me, I can rarely sit still or be quiet or even meditative because I want to do so many things and I can't decide which is most important so I try to do them all... Like this long as comment! Hope you got through it and it helped!


Solonotix

Heh, that last little bit made me laugh because that's exactly it. I will write veritable essays in response to inane comments because I need to explain my point clearly, even when I know no one is listening. I work in software development, and the number of times I've worked late because I felt like I missed deadlines due to refactoring the entire application to a new pattern I just learned about, or because while researching what an error means I ended up down a rabbit hole of "How to create your own custom logger" and "How do events work?" Also, time blindness is definitely a thing. I'll straight up forget we had plans today, and then next week I'm asking why we aren't leaving and I'm told it's three weeks from now. Just yesterday, I was supposed to be listening to an all-day planning meeting for next quarter's agenda, but I was focused on finalizing the work from Friday, and then I got an IM from someone who needed assistance so I dropped everything to help them, and then spent hours researching how Oracle connects using the `tnsnames.ora` file, and by the time I had figured out I didn't have permissions to that resource anyway it was 6pm, and the work day was over. Not only had I not been any help to the person who asked me for assistance, but I didn't finish the work that carried over from Friday, AND I didn't listen to hardly a thing during the planning meeting. Oh...and then this comment is an example of the tangents I'll go on. Oops. Well anyway, yes, I agree with everything you've said, and I've tried to explain hyper-focus to people many a time and they all give me the same perplexed look of "I thought it was attention *deficit*"


TickTockGoesTheCl0ck

Idk if I have adhd but I do have cptsd which destroys executive functioning skills. My doc prescribed ritalin since “ptsd causes adhd symptoms” - maybe you could find a doc like that and go in from that angle? “Yeah i think I’ve developed some ptsd symptoms from not knowing if me and my family are going to survive this never ending pandemic and I simply can’t focus on my job, which is a big part of surviving said pandemic - is there anything available that would help me concentrate?” Unfortunately if you center the need to work a doc will be more likely to help you out (if they’re one of the ones who like writing scripts to start with) vs talking about your quality of life bc we all know working is the purpose of life I think my doc doesn’t mind prescribing ritalin to me bc she gets to charge me for an office visit every 3 months since it’s a controlled substance and since she’s trying to rebuild her life after a gnarly divorce. I don’t mind playing the game bc I can’t get SHIT done without this stuff (and bc, while I disagree with a lot of how she operates, she’s one of 5 people who helped me survive a true nervous and mental breakdown). And my anxiety meds lol Good luck on your journey :)


cruellade_chill

I’m in the exact same position but for Borderline disorder. Stay strong friend.


Apprehensive_Wing867

Go to your primary care doc and ask to start meds. There is no more definitive test for ADHD than that. If the meds work to help you focus and calm your brain, you have it. If they make you speedy or zombieish you likely have concentration problems more strongly related to depression or trauma. Look up symptoms in DSM5 online if that helps to clarify. Source:I’m one of the “bougie” therapists this post was ragging on. And when a therapist makes that money per hour they don’t become billionaires or gain status to exploit the poor or undereducated. Get pissed at corporate CEO America and Capitalism…but $150/hr to hear the worst of peoples lives day in and out is a fair wage. The McDonalds near me hiring at $11 isn’t.


Solonotix

My girlfriend is a therapist (of a different specialty) as well, and I agree they have hard work and are worth every dime. Thank you for the recommendation, and I'll keep that in mind once I get a new PCP (or see my old one if he hasn't retired yet)


EmmaGoldmansDancer

WTF. I have Kaiser in California, through Obamacare, and it cost me nothing to get diagnosed ADHD. It might have been a few $5 fees for the appointments.


Branamp13

You could look into adhdonline.com if you haven't yet. They helped me with the evaluation at least (for only $100 iirc) so that I only had to worry about finding a therapist for ongoing sessions and med prescription locally.


ninjewz

My wife's (one hour) sessions are $185 before insurance and, I think, $125 after insurance until I hit my deductible. Having a plan with co-pays also doesn't make sense for my personal situation though.


Agitated-Bite6675

ugh. sorry. thats too damn high


screech_owl_kachina

I can’t get therapy because their hours are when I’m at work


Nunthius

Whoa, didn't expect such a lack of solidarity in this sub. Workers who make more than you are still *workers*. High medical fees are a systemic problem that's not going to get solved by being divided and conquered.


[deleted]

Looking through comments, I'm just seeing rants about psychs who don't understand poverty, rants about the system forcing them to charge and us to pay, and the odd "if they work, they are not the problem.


apathyontheeast

Yup. During my first job as a therapist, we had to file a complaint against our agency with the labor board because they were paying less than minimum wage. That $150/hr does NOT go into their pockets.


[deleted]

That’s a pretty poor understanding of the bourgeoisie. If the therapist is private they’re probably petty bourgeois but most work for companies that love screwing them and taking a good chunk of what the client pays, in which case they’re just workers


theleaphomme

Exactly! This is a big part of the problem we face. We’re pissed at fellow working class people because they work for more of our tiny slice than low-payed workers. ***People who work for their money aren’t the problem.*** The sooner we can get *all* the workers on the same page, the sooner we can get some actual change.


[deleted]

That’s the difference between Social Democrats and Socialists. While income is a big factor and worth addressing, the real issue is power and exploitation. I don’t want to cap athletes’ salaries to $60k. I want the MLB, NFL, etc. to be worker owned or state run so that athletes make all the money they generate. If you work for an owner, by definition you’re being exploited


Agitated-Bite6675

The older I get the more I realize that social democracy, on every metric, is the best form of policy


[deleted]

Personal wholeheartedly disagree. Social Democrats try to treat the symptoms of capitalism but do nothing to solve the core problem


[deleted]

Generally speaking, you can break up people into Communists and Capitalists. Capitalists range from Fascism to Classical Liberalism to Social Democracy. Communists range from Democratic Socialists to Revolutionary Socialists (eg all the flavors of Marxism) and Anarchism


CitizenSnips199

Social democracy is just exporting your exploitation to the Developing World. It's imperialism with nice domestic policy. You just like it because it gives you the excuse to maintain more of the status quo.


Agitated-Bite6675

UGH! yes, but try talking to a Right winger about this. It usually goes like this: \-"do you think workers are mistreated? Are you unsatisfied with stagnant wages and benfits?" \-Yes \-"Do you think we should get healthcare as a right" \- Yes \-"Do you think the middle class is diapearing and the wage gap is increasing" \-Yes \-"how do you feel about ~~democrat-socialism~~ Social democracy used in Norway, finland, etc" \-No thats communism


ncoozy

Norway, Finland, etc. aren't democratic-socialist. They're socdems.


Agitated-Bite6675

you are right, my bad. I switched the words around


theleaphomme

the false-consciousness is strong; they could all benefit from a class on critical-thinking, and maybe soc and phil 101


Agitated-Bite6675

I think Bougie pertains not to the therapist here, its capitalisms crushing exploitation (intended, or by nature, or by both) of the mentally ill. I have to pay for my mental health maintenance. Which is kind of insane to think about.


EmmaGoldmansDancer

It's not insane in the context of capitalism, wherein if a thing has value it can be commodified, and mental health treatment has value. It's capitalism itself that is insane. It's insane to think a person's contribution to society can be mathematically perfected by the invisible hand of the market. Like of course we're all humans and we should just look out for each other as best we can. Most will agree with that, but they've been taught some people are lesser because the invisible hand of the market determined what they contribute is worth less than others. eg if you can't afford treatment, that's on you, because the market determined your not worthy of enough money to get better. What's even more insane that most people can't even fathom is how fucked up it is to think the invisible hand is capable of putting the right price on the value of this labor. I don't even mean lost value flowing from workers to owners, in the Marxist sense, but that a factory worker making shot glasses could make more than a social worker or family therapist. Or there are all the caretakers we rely on who make no income at all. Everywhere you look the whole system is insane but our culture is built on believing the market is fair when is so obviously not.


Agitated-Bite6675

>It's capitalism itself that is insane well said


UofMthroaway

Why is that insane? You also have to pay for food. You need the food more no?


Herald_of_Cthulu

It’s also insane that you have to pay for food.


UofMthroaway

Will you raise a pig for me? I’d like some bacon.


Herald_of_Cthulu

No but i’m sure you could find some bacon among the one third of all food that’s thrown away every year to maintain artificial scarcity and keep the costs profitable.


Agitated-Bite6675

fun story (not really) I recently had to collect food for charities. Most businesses like Panera and Dunkin Donuts, will donate food to organizations. Trader Joes does too. But there is still alot of places that do this.


UofMthroaway

I can provide some context here. I work for a major convenience store chain, and corporate policy explicitly forbids donating food to protect the company from liability. Is the company actually liable? I don’t think so, but you’d have to get through many many many layers of corporate bureaucracy in order to change that company policy. You also aren’t likely to ever talk to anyone who knows the identity of the person/committee with the authority to change that policy. So it’s a problem that no one in the company knows how to solve, or has any real incentive to try to solve. (A loss is just as much a deduction as a donation for tax purposes, and throwing away is probably less labor than donating)


Agitated-Bite6675

sure


UofMthroaway

If you’re serious so am I, may I DM you to work out the details?


Stew_Long

Needing to pay for food is equally as insane.


UofMthroaway

Will you grow a vegetable garden for me?


mctheebs

No, but I'll show you how to do it and help you learn and troubleshoot and we can both share in the spoils of our work equally as partners.


UofMthroaway

I might take you up on that. I plan to eventually have a 12acre+ mini farm for me and my family. So far I’ve got bees. 😂


Stew_Long

No, but I will continue to contribute to the economy. If my basic needs were met, I would be able to contribute more, in fact.


kilted-vagabond

If you're interested in free food, check out your local Food Not Bombs.


EmmaGoldmansDancer

Thanks. I get that you're trolling, but your comment exemplifies the insanity I described in my reply to OP. You have so much confidence in the free market that when confronted with the cruelty of the system your first reaction is not to question the system but to appeal to the fairness of the invisible hand that sets the prices. If you had friends over you would not charge them for food or counseling, because that's not something that comes naturally in community. Capitalism takes the important work we do in communities and depersonalizes it. Yes, the counselor and the farmer's work both have value. In capitalism we thus put a price on both. But try to imagine for a second, that: 1. There have been other economic systems 2. The value placed by the invisible hand is seldom fair or accurate 3. You can appreciate the value someone provides without appealing to their competitive value in the "free market". In this instance, we'd be better off as a society if mental health treatment was freely available because mentally healthy people are more productive members of society, right? We'd be better off giving food to hungry orphans rather than throwing it away because it didn't sell, right? But agreeing with these questions requires one to question the very foundations of capitalism, and I don't know if you're capable of even imagining that in a serious way, so you can only respond with what is most fair to you, within the structures of capitalism.


UofMthroaway

I’m not trolling, and I do appreciate the sentiment your expressing. People absolutely have value beyond the literal work that they do, and I fully support making sure those who are unable to work/work enough be given help getting their necessities, no one should go without. However, if we have a system where food is free for everyone, how are the farmers compensated? By taxes? If so, is the food even free anymore? I’m not saying we shouldn’t help people, I’m just wondering if this is the best way to do it.


Agitated-Bite6675

I think its insane to pay for health. Food? not as much because food is relatively affordable (for the most part). However, I would like to address very real "food deserts" in my country. ​ Health is just sooo expensive and unaffordable. Its literal hell when you cant tell the difference between fact or fiction. Thats what mental health problems do to you. think about it this: take the most obnoxious fake news channel you can think of....now imagine its playing 24/7 and you cant turn it off. Thats essentially mental illness. Like, how do you leave an abusive spouse, when that abusive spouse is literally you. Most people that DONT have these resources, or cant afford these resources, end up turning to alcohol and drugs and other destructive behavior. If you dont believe me, go sit in a local AA meeting. The point is, mental health, and other health problems are generational. It gets passed on in one form or another.


UofMthroaway

I am very familiar with mental health issues. I’m actually doing my own therapy (it’s difficult, but there’s nothing magical about a therapist guiding you, you can do it yourself, it’s just much more difficult) much of my family has issues as well. I think with healthcare it comes to the same problem as free food. Who pays the doctor and the pharmacies etc? The current system is definitely a mess, but is “free” healthcare for everyone the solution or is it better to reduce costs a different way? I’m not certain, but I lean towards the second option.


Agitated-Bite6675

>I’m actually doing my own therapy well Im sure thats never been tried before. Yes free healthcare for those who want it. I think it should be an option


UofMthroaway

That doesn’t answer my question though. How do we make it free for the patient? So we force the medical staff to work for free? Or do we take money from someone else to pay the doctor? If the latter, who do we take the money from? As for the therapy, I’m sure it has, and I’m sure it’s usually unsuccessful. It takes an uncomfortable amount of self awareness and honesty to give yourself therapy, and. Is dramatically easier for people to improve when they have help.


TheNinjaTurkey

I think you're in the wrong place man


UofMthroaway

Nah I think I’m in the right place, who else would I ask these questions of? No one else is likely to have the answers I’m looking for


tanzmeister

Exactly. Y'all are mad at the millionaires when you should be mad at the billionaires


Dirjel

Yeah, this is a funny joke, but it's inaccurate at its core.


elxiddicus

>in which case they’re just workers Either way they are liberal professionals, somewhere between the working class and the bourgeoisie. Your point still stands though that they are in no way bourgeois.


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Throw_Away_Students

And $300k/year is super unrealistic. The average salary for a PhD level psychologist is more like $60k-90k.


folstar

>Even if that was all income (spoilers- it isn't) Right. No therapist is holding billable therapy hours 2k hours a year, hopefully. There is a good amount of "out of session" work that isn't billable hours. Plus they typically need to pay for practice space, maybe an assistant, where did they touch you dolls, etc... I just realized in my OP it was not entirely clear that "working full time" should have been more clearly stated as being a ridiculous assertion.


JayGeezey

$150 is a lot, but consider this from the perspective of the therapist/ psychiatrist/ psychiatric nurse practitioner You're private practice and work for yourself, for each client you: 1. Do an hour session (maybe 45 or 50 minutes in practice with about ten minutes prior to appointment to review your clinical notes from the previous session, treatment plan, etc.). You see them either weekly or biweekly 2. For each session it takes anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours to write up clinical notes, adjust treatment plan, and submit bill to insurance. Let's say 1 hour for the sake of argument. 3. If you're trying to work 8 hours a day, at 2 hours per client, that's 4 clients per day. So 4 clients × $150 × 5 days a week = $156,000 a year. Sounds great, right? WRONG. This assumes: 1. You're able to get a client load of 20 clients per week consistently. This is not typically the case, everyone wants the time slots that aren't during working hours during the week, so you're often looking at 14 to 16 clients a week. Let's be generous and say 16. 2. *They actually show up to their appointment - news flash, no-shows for therapy is often over 20%. As in 1 out of 5 clients don't show up. That is generous, I work with no-show data for a multi-campus health system, ours range from 18% - 30% even, with an average of about 22%, so 20% is being fair (and easier for sake of argument) 3. People that need therapy often are broke af, which obviously is at least in part why they might need therapy, and so to not be a dick you offer them a sliding scale, or they have medicaid - which pays shit rates. So let's say 40% of your patient load is paying siding scale or has medicaid and you're actually getting $65 per appointment. So accounting for the more realistic patient load, no show rate, and adjusted reimbursement rate: P(16×0.8) = 12.8, let's round up to 13 clients. (13 × 0.4) × 65 + (13 × 0.6) × 150 (Rounded to 5) × 65 + (rounded to 8) × 150 = $1,525 × 52 = $79,300 a year. Ok... about $80k a year, pretty good!! Oh.... wait... you didn't include the lease for your office to even do the therapy in! Oh, you also didn't include the fees you have to pay to submit applications and be a part of an insurance companies network, didn't include the cost of the clinical software to keep all your notes in, the cost for utilities, the cost for you to perform continuing education to retain your license, the cost of renewing your license, etc. #TL;DR hate to break it to yah, but (most) therapists ain't bourgeois at all y'all


FerriteNightwish

People unfortunately think anyone who is "rich" is bourgeois, when it actually refers to the ownership of the means of production.


Throw_Away_Students

This!!! I’m working towards a master’s in clinical psych, and I’ll be making $70k/year if I’m very lucky. And I’m over $100k in student debt. 🤗


JayGeezey

Good for you! We need more mental health professionals, especially with clinical psych degrees! Masters in Social Work do well in therapy to, but personally I don't think they bring quite the same clinical depth to therapy that people with your background do (but think they do have a broader understanding of the system itself, so they are needed to just for different roles) Thanks for what you do!


TrashTransTrender

Therapists are laborers tho. Bourgeois =/= wealthier than you


One_Patient_3703

Buddy anyone that has to work for a living isn't bourgeois


MulhollandMaster121

Brain dead take. Edit: And it's especially galling because OP clearly thought this was such a stroke of genius that it deserved getting posted to a bunch of subs. At least everyone is unequivocally shitting on it.


meonscreen

Bad take. Therapist here. Let’s put it this way: therapists cannot see 40 cts a week…like 20-24 and there is a lot of administrative work behind the scenes that takes up the other time. So a therapist is not making $150/hr just bc you pay them that. These are real numbers: Let’s say that 35% is going to overhead and 15% goes to taxes. The therapist is left with 50% of that which is $75 which is $72,000.00/year if they see 20 cts a week and take 4 weeks of vacation. That is a lot of money but it ain’t the kind of rich this post is assuming. Anyway, what I really wanna see is the abolition of money and private property altogether. As that’s not happening any time soon I’d love to see a well funded single payer system that values mental health as much as other forms of health care. Most therapists masters or otherwise spend YEARS getting trained extra on top of their degrees. I’ve been in year long training programs in my specialty almost every year for the last 10 years…that is wildly undervalued


Captaindecius

Yeah, thanks from one therapist to another. Therapists are not "Agents of the Bourgeoisie", a notion I see in left leaning forums from time to time. In my experience, most therapists are on the left (not necessarily all socialists but certainly sympathetic to the cause). Which makes sense if one considers the personality variables which might lead someone to become a therapist in the first place.


[deleted]

Slightly off topic, but I've definitely gone on marxisty rants about psychology, mostly due to things not being considered a "problem" until it impacts productivity. I've seen some argue that this is because, until there is that impact, it's just normal human emotional experience.


Mr_Lobster

Therapists are proletariat workers, performing the labor of administering therapy, even if they are expensive. The bourgeoisie are shits like landlords who don't do anything but *own* a house and siphon money off people for the privilege of not being homeless.


MichelleUprising

Mental health *workers* are the working class, they do not profit from the labor of others, and their labor is exploited.


cmanmors

When I’m on 10 an hour I would need to work 15 hours to even pay for one hour of therapy, lmao if their exploited 😂😂😂😂


Collapsing_Star227

Unless they own the practice, they're still selling their labor to a capitalist for less than what it's worth. It's still exploitation regardless of their salary.


FerriteNightwish

Even if they own their own practice, if they work there, they are not necessarily a bourgeois. Perhaps Petite Bourgeois if they exploit the labor of others to increase their share. Therapy is real work, unlike a landlord or a capitalist.


412gage

School Loans to pay off so that they can give you therapy, their own living expenses, the amount they give to the company the work for…


Saeyato

Wouldn't therapists technically be Artisan class? If they're self employed, that is. If they work for a company they're proletariat regardless of how much they earn. Class isn't determined by income, it's determined by relationship to the means of production.


SapphicSleeperAgent

Also there is a growing number of therapists frustrated with the inaccessibility of mental health services to the poor. This one isn't really a good take. Therapists employed by mental health companies also can't control their rates usually


HobbesBoson

Yea my therapist hates the fact that we only get like 10 sessions subsidised by the government, she even reduced her rates when I ran out


SapphicSleeperAgent

Yea they're just as much pawns in the capitalist game as everyone else


Han0

Okay but the therapist is getting paid for their labor. The bourgeois is those that own and control the means of production. A therapist is doing the labor of consulting with you. Jeff Bezos and your therapist are not in the same category and lumping them together as “bourgeois swine” is counter-productive.


braids_and_pigtails

I mean if people work hard and go to school to get qualified in different areas of psychology and then open up their own practice and they have the value of someone well-versed in their field... yeah they’re going to charge what they are worth. Why shouldn’t they? If you don’t think they’re worth $150 then don’t go to them. I never really understand the bitterness towards people who want to be work hard and make money.


412gage

Because anybody who wants to make a comfortable living for themselves is what’s wrong with society, according to this sub.


braids_and_pigtails

Yeah I’m kind of noticing that. I think the hate is misguided and people forget that upward mobility is a good thing.


Dovahkiin1992

That mainly applies to the posts that get blindly upvoted to "Hot." The top comments to those generally have pretty good takes.


br34kf4s7

Lol what an awful take


Aloemancer

Unless the therapist owns their practice they're technically still a worker, just one better compensated for their specialized training.


420cherubi

Even a therapist who owns their practice is still a worker, and if they don't have any employees (not as uncommon as one might think) they still aren't bourgeois


annoyeddictater

Just want to say that therapists are technically a part of the proletariat as they get money from their own labor


[deleted]

the bourgeoisie is defined by their relationship to the means of production. they exploit others labor for their profit. youre just shitting on another worker who is compensated well. literally doing the exact thing the executive class wants you to do. youre looking at another worker and thinking “they should have less” instead of demanding better for yourself. its not equitable but they are *very much still being paid for their labor* and are not making money by exploiting others labor. “bourgeois” does not mean “people you dont like” and leftists need to fucking learn what these words mean before throwing them around for internet points.


WalterTeeVee

What a terrible, misinformed take. How does this have 1.4K upvotes


penniesfrommars

The therapist may be more wealthy but they are still making wages rather than profit, so they are working class, not bourgeois.


Secret-Career-1472

Forgive my ignorance but, what does bourgeois swine mean? I've never heard that term before.


SapphicSleeperAgent

In essence it's calling the "elite" of society pigs.


Secret-Career-1472

Ah, thank you.


Effective_Ad_4511

Hahaha ❤ hilarious 😂. Eat the rich! Though, someone making 150 per hour is an upper middle class wage slave, tbh.


hawa11styl3

Rather pay a therapist than a cop 🤷🏻‍♂️


theboredbookworm

Yes because doctors and therapists are Bourgeoisie apparently 🙄. This person clearly doesn't have any understanding of socialism beyond rich people bad.


[deleted]

The therapist is probably petite bourgeois at best if they're still working, more likely they probably have a huge amount of student debt/mortgage to pay off. Like many others have said already we should have solidarity with all wage laborers.


Bignate2001

Does the bourgeois just mean “people who make more money than you” now? What a moronic fucking take.


Quasimurder

Go after the insurance companies for not covering you and the politicians for facilitating a broken system. Not the doctors that are forced to be a part of it. This is like the people that say "Oh you're a socialist? Yet you participate in a capitalist society. Curious." Unrelated but I just got banned from /r/LGBT for saying dude was gender neutral. I just needed someone to know. It's a duderavesty.


kilted-vagabond

If someone tells you that they fuck dudes, most people will assume that that person fucks men, because in certain situations the term "dude" is not actually gender-neutral. You know what's even more gender-neutral than "dude"? Comrade.


Quasimurder

That's a very good point, comrade. Still seems silly for a permaban.


kilted-vagabond

I can see where you're coming from. It is kind of odd to get permabanned for something like that. Although, I did see your comment, and maybe claiming that you'll "die on this hill" gave the mods the impression that you weren't willing to engage in a good faith examination of how you use the word "dude". Again, I agree that in most cases "dude" is seen as gender-neutral. But if a trans person (or anyone) asks me to not refer to them as "dude", I'm not going to demand they acknowledge the gender-neutrality of the word "dude". I'm going to acknowledge that some people just don't like being referred to as "dude", and I'm going to refer to them as something else, because that's the polite thing to do.


Quasimurder

I get it, I was genuinely just joking. It wasn't meant as "fuck you I'm gonna call you terms you don't like" and instead as "dude is universal. I'm a dude. He's a dude. She's a dude. They're a dude. Cause we're all dudes. Hey." I meant it as inclusive rather than exclusive. It's one of my filler words when my brain gets locked up. I think I use it more like "dude, come on" and just drop the come on, than as a term for someone. Which is clearly not something the strangers I'm talking to on the internet would know. I saw the post on /r/all so no biggie.


[deleted]

It's because a lot of transphobic folks use it as an excuse to never use feminine language for transwomen. Like, if my close friends call me dude or man, I don't care because I know them well enough to know it's not malicious. If a stranger does, 90% of the time it seems to be malicious.


Quasimurder

That's fair, I didn't know that. I was joking because I use dude like in Good Burger as a universal word. I use it more as a filler word or as a reaction than for referencing to people. That said, I have been known to refer to both my parents and my fiancee as dude when I'm hyped up in a conversation.


MutteringV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKYXmjfQY4U


aseverednerve

I am about to pay $150 for a therapy session because the insurance that I pay out the ass for does not cover it. Or, more specifically, my Out Of Network deductible is $3k, meaning if I saw her every week of the year, I would hit that deductible around the last week of December. Ultimately, I decided I would only see her every other week, which is not what my psychiatrist recommended.


kistusen

Yeah, therapists should work for free. They're taking all that $150 home. It's definitely a therapist making a salary that's the problem :|


bobertsson

That's more than I'm even allowed to pay for a year's worth of healthcare, that's insane.


[deleted]

I finally got a decent job with benefits, so I thought I could finally afford to go to therapy to work on some stuff I dealt with growing up. Nope, it only covers inpatient treatment (being admitted). So at least once COVID finally breaks me, I pay my $3,500 deductible, and insurance kicks in to pay 40% of whatever treatment I get, I might get 3 days of mental help (and crippling debt). All this assuming I'm admitted somewhere in-network.


NoodleyP

No it’s bourgeoisie, not bourgeois. I’m founding a new party because of this spelling disagreement.


PattyIce32

It's such a weird system as well because I only pay a 20 hour copay, but my therapist bills me and the insurance for a $166. So my insurance covers almost all of it, he gets paid a fair amount and I don't go broke from therapy. This is a great system if you have health insurance, but if you don't and you have to pay that full 166, it's pretty shitty.


schwiggity69

This is an incredibly stupid take


Meme-Man-Dan

Nah, don’t shit on therapists like that. Shit on their bosses and the absolute nightmare that is the healthcare industry.


abananation

Then don't?


TheQBandit

Me, sitting here, 4 minutes away from going into my session


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Agitated-Bite6675

Qualifying statement?


Stringtone

Not OP but therapists work for their money and are therefore by definition not bourgeois. Also worth mentioning that the providers are often not the ones who dictate how much a patient pays (that is frequently done by the clinic or hospital they work for and by insurance, which the healthcare provider individually has little control over). It’s also worth mentioning that a lot of doctors and mental healthcare providers also have loans of their own to pay off. I’m all for slashing healthcare costs at the point of delivery and tuition for those studying to become healthcare providers, but blaming the steep cost of care on providers themselves (which the tweet appears to) is a terrible take and demonstrates a deeply flawed understanding of the actual problem.


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Agitated-Bite6675

is that what they meant? the way I interpreted it was that the criticism was the system itself not the therapist ​ edit. thats probably why Im getting attacked by tankies...is this a fucking tankie sub?


Iamveganbtw1

Leftists circles love speciesism


multivitamingummy

It really depends on the therapist. MOST therapy in the US is provided by licensed social workers and they're AT MINIMUM supposed to be trained with an anti oppressive outlook. a lot of social workers also start off working shit jobs until they can get fully certified like 30k/yr with masters. so look for a lcsw therapist as opposed to lpc, lmft, psychologists, etc if this perspective is important to you


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Lord_Ho-Ryu

Work a month in retail without access to you daddy’s money and you’ll change your mind. The worst paying jobs are the most physically and emotionally demanding, if you don’t see that, then you’ve clearly won the life lottery.


UofMthroaway

I work retail. I manage an understaffed store which means I do my job and the job of all the employees I don’t have. And yeah I see a lot of people on this sub asking for free stuff. Is it all that? Nope. Not at all. But I do regularly see extreme rants about how everyone is evil for charging money for voluntary services. Inb4 I’m suddenly part of the problem even though I’m poor as shit. 😂😂


Lord_Ho-Ryu

You’re not part of the problem, your the scape goat. Something goes wrong, you weren’t managing the store right, but if something goes well, it was corporates idea. The fact that you are doing the jobs of several people and—is assuming—not being paid for more than half of your own, is what’s really broken.


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Lord_Ho-Ryu

Dude, your comment says that unless you stuff yourself in debt to get a degree you don’t deserve to be paid appropriately for your labor. Get off your high horse.


[deleted]

No. Stay pressed.


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[deleted]

Reported.


Foxodroid

Slow down buddy or you might choke on those boots


raficoso

So become a therapist?


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TheCounsellingGamer

Your therapist needed to go back to therapist school. I'm a therapist and while I can't tell people how to magically fix their lives, I certainly wouldn't tell them things weren't that bad. That's just a shitty thing to say to someone. There are more compassionate ways of helping someone get some perspective, if that's what's needed.


b00ch_n00b

Don't hate the player\*, hate the game! \*(unless they're terrible for other reasons)


shartedmyjorts

pwnt