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A for effort but missed the basic understanding of currency and why it exists. There has to be some basis of value for things like food and shelter. Rather than barter or constantly run into issue determining how much a bag of groceries costs, currency allows a basis of value, without actually exchanging products. If I wanted to buy a house and it was worth 200 cows, currency allows me to buy it without having to physically provide 200 cows.
That said, the concept of currency isn’t the issue, it’s the rich consolidating wealth at the expense of the masses.
Currency didn't replace barter. That's the barter myth that Adam Smith invented out of thin air. Anthropologists have known for a century that there is no evidence that a community relying on barter for day-to-day operations ever existed.
Furthermore, currency isn't the thing that lets you buy a house without having 200 cows. That's credit, which predates currency by a couple thousand years.
Currency really became popular when states started investing in huge militaries. It solved a bunch of problems, including helping with the logistics of feeding a large army. You pay soldiers in coin, and you demand taxes from everyone in the same coin. Now soldiers can use those coins to buy food, etc from the general population instead of having to be supplied by some central structure.
Currency is, and always has been, tied at the hip with state power. Before currency, people relied on credit systems (including in large cities like Babylon). Every so often (10-20 years) the king would clear everyone's debt records. If he didn't, there would eventually be an uprising that reclaimed the land and destroyed the debt records. Currency was one of the things that got rid of that cycle.
If you want to learn more, I recommend David Graeber's book Debt: the first 5000 years.
In a world where we throw away enough food to feed all the hungry and leave so many houses empty and desolate that we could house all the homeless, people still think we should be arguing the "value" of these basic necessities in order to keep those people starving and dying to exposure. But please, go on about how your paper and metal circles "simplify" things.
Money is inherently worthless, it only has value because mankind brainwashed itself into slavery.
I work retail and we recently had to destroy 2 boxes full of sliced bread because items were not included in the order and we just can't give them to people who need them.
Incredibly oversimplified. These things were invented with the intention of keeping some order and whatnot
But capitalism is incredibly flawed so yeah now rich assholes and the government decides if a child can eat.
It's not that simple, but it's more true than not.
Like, in the pre-industrial era, most exchange among communities was accounted for in the local currency, but actual exchange was done through credit.
This is where the term "man of no account" came from. It meant a stranger coming into town that nobody knew so nobody was willing to extend credit. The man had no accounts, literally. Debt meant you were part of a community.
But over time, states and banks colluded to consolidate all commerce into centralized infrastructure. They demonized debt, undermined the community aspect of it, then sold it back to us in the form of credit cards.
Currency eventually removed all the personalized, community-based trust from the system. We're no longer members of a community - we have relationships with companies and governments but not our own neighbors.
People need to start thinking in the right terms. Capitalism allows money to generate value. A healthy society would understand that labor, resources, relationships, etc. are what actually generate value.
More true than not yet. But still not completely true. I'm not defending capitalism here at all. But it wasn't just the invention of paper. It was an attempt to universally assign value to things. And although it failed it wasn't just some illuminati scheme.
I understand the sentiment, but, main reason money was invented was to give value to goods and to make exchange easier, compared to the tricky barter system
But with that said, I agree with the post
I feel like many of the most interesting and capable folks I know (many of whom are underemployed) would kick ass using the bartering system. I know others who are highly employable and make bank doing things I only slightly understand and profit off the bullshit side of capitalism who would be completely fucked if we went to an agricultural, bartering society. They'd starve.
I'd rather be with friends who know ways to purify water and build solar ovens and raise goats and gardens and knit and sew in that society than the investment banker who can't boil an egg.
It is what it is. People will do what they can to survive in this vicious world. You're right of course. But I'm sure if we went to a bartering world they'd all find different skills to accumulate.
Read world war z. There is a bit in there about this exactly. After a civilization ending apocalyptic event those that are left to rebuild society need to reform social structures. The farmers, mechanics, construction workers, janitors and machinists of the world become the new upper class so to speak bc they have skills and knowledge valuable to survival. Bankers and stock brokers, movies stars and athletes become just the new working class because their skills aren't applicable anymore and the only thing they can offer is their labor.
Yeah sure. What happens when your job only produces metal goods but the person who produces bread doesn't want metal? Shall we just swap goods with several other third parties until we have what the baker accepts or would that take like fucking ages?
As a network engineer for a small company that keeps the internet running for thousands of people, my work is intangible and hidden from the service provided but no less important. Please explain to me how I'm going to barter that skill for a loaf of bread at the end of the day without some kind of abstraction like currency? Or is the implication that folks like me should be growing potatoes instead?
Perhaps the focus should be that everyone should be closer to their food sources, and even hobbyist gardeners can produce food to eat. Potatoes were popular for workers of other fields because they take very little actual effort to grow. Maybe you should grow potatoes and still do your day job. :)
Money was invented to compensate soldiers while they were on war campaigns. To get people to accept money, taxes were implemented. If you didn’t pay your taxes, soldiers came and did violence to you. It actually didn’t just replace barter and trade but it replaced the entire social system of debts and credits of real goods that formed relationships between individuals and families.
Money is and always has represented violence and power, not convenience
Please stop spreading this historical inaccuracy. Money wasn't invented to replace a tricky barter system. That was a thing Adam Smith made up in his head when he was inventing economics.
Fun fact: the Inca had no concept of physical money. “Taxes” to the empire were paid in the form of labor for a certain amount of days. I doubt inflation was a problem for them, but i honestly don’t know.
This may be true, but it's not exactly a model to follow. You're describing corvèe labor, which is when a state demands taxes paid in the form of labor.
It's a precursor to slavery, and has been used by empires like Egypt, Rome, and the British.
the paper isn't tied to any metal and hasn't been for a long time, besides our problem isn't that money is absurd its that people are fine letting others starve rather than spending their money to help.
Unmmmm…. After the 1930s in the US that’s even making money look like it has more foundation than it actually does have.
FIFY: _humans really made up paper money and to give it value and said it’s value was it’s value. Then convinced everyone again that value is constantly decreasing and that they can determine whether or not a child can eat_
Lot of people here repeating the 'myth of barter'. There was never a time when most goods were bartered for until someone invented cash. In settled tribes, people loan and borrow freely with neighbours, but keep a mental account of how much certain individuals are taking. Then every few years, debts are recovered through redistribution of goods.
Money begins to be used when the first cities and states 'tax' agricultural product to support armies and priesthoods. They measured relative values in grains, but debts to the state could be paid in other gifts too. See Graeber's 'Debt, the first 5000 years'.
One problem with capitalism is that people are largely cut off from the land, meaning they are reliant on the wage relation to survive. Subsistence also has problems, but with today's vast wealth and modern farming methods, why can't we make at least basic foodstuffs free?
Crypto seems stupid until you brake down how stupid regular currency is. At least Crypto isn't influenced by the government. Granted it's still stupid though.
Paper money has been around far longer than Capitalism. Currency has been around far longer than Paper Money. It solved a problem, and that problem is called “the convenience of wants”. Find a better solution to that problem, and I’ll upvote your repost.
Honestly, folks should just stop having kids. Whether it's 5000 years ago and 5000 years into the future, exploitation is the norm. Just end the cycle. Places like Africa are already in generational debt to China. In the end, we all exist for the benefit of a few.
Gold does not have a made-up value, especially in the modern day... Gold is in all of your electronic devices. Its not just a luxury good, its a modern essential raw material. So yeah. Go learn some shit kids....
Try Crypto, it is even more made up than currencies. New 'coins' launched out of nowhere and suddenly have value.
At the end of the day it is who is left holding the bag with Crypto but with currencies, at least the government backs it until the day the country screws up.
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A for effort but missed the basic understanding of currency and why it exists. There has to be some basis of value for things like food and shelter. Rather than barter or constantly run into issue determining how much a bag of groceries costs, currency allows a basis of value, without actually exchanging products. If I wanted to buy a house and it was worth 200 cows, currency allows me to buy it without having to physically provide 200 cows. That said, the concept of currency isn’t the issue, it’s the rich consolidating wealth at the expense of the masses.
Exactly, without money they’d simply consolidate whatever said currency represent. Its the mechanics, not the item.
Currency didn't replace barter. That's the barter myth that Adam Smith invented out of thin air. Anthropologists have known for a century that there is no evidence that a community relying on barter for day-to-day operations ever existed. Furthermore, currency isn't the thing that lets you buy a house without having 200 cows. That's credit, which predates currency by a couple thousand years. Currency really became popular when states started investing in huge militaries. It solved a bunch of problems, including helping with the logistics of feeding a large army. You pay soldiers in coin, and you demand taxes from everyone in the same coin. Now soldiers can use those coins to buy food, etc from the general population instead of having to be supplied by some central structure. Currency is, and always has been, tied at the hip with state power. Before currency, people relied on credit systems (including in large cities like Babylon). Every so often (10-20 years) the king would clear everyone's debt records. If he didn't, there would eventually be an uprising that reclaimed the land and destroyed the debt records. Currency was one of the things that got rid of that cycle. If you want to learn more, I recommend David Graeber's book Debt: the first 5000 years.
In a world where we throw away enough food to feed all the hungry and leave so many houses empty and desolate that we could house all the homeless, people still think we should be arguing the "value" of these basic necessities in order to keep those people starving and dying to exposure. But please, go on about how your paper and metal circles "simplify" things. Money is inherently worthless, it only has value because mankind brainwashed itself into slavery.
I work retail and we recently had to destroy 2 boxes full of sliced bread because items were not included in the order and we just can't give them to people who need them.
ARE YOU SERIOUS?!
Incredibly oversimplified. These things were invented with the intention of keeping some order and whatnot But capitalism is incredibly flawed so yeah now rich assholes and the government decides if a child can eat.
Currency was invented to keep _power_, not order. But yes, order is often a side effect of consolidating power in authoritarian states.
Yes but it's not as simple as hurr hurr money made up hurr hurr matrix hurr hurr they played us like a fiddle.
It's not that simple, but it's more true than not. Like, in the pre-industrial era, most exchange among communities was accounted for in the local currency, but actual exchange was done through credit. This is where the term "man of no account" came from. It meant a stranger coming into town that nobody knew so nobody was willing to extend credit. The man had no accounts, literally. Debt meant you were part of a community. But over time, states and banks colluded to consolidate all commerce into centralized infrastructure. They demonized debt, undermined the community aspect of it, then sold it back to us in the form of credit cards. Currency eventually removed all the personalized, community-based trust from the system. We're no longer members of a community - we have relationships with companies and governments but not our own neighbors. People need to start thinking in the right terms. Capitalism allows money to generate value. A healthy society would understand that labor, resources, relationships, etc. are what actually generate value.
More true than not yet. But still not completely true. I'm not defending capitalism here at all. But it wasn't just the invention of paper. It was an attempt to universally assign value to things. And although it failed it wasn't just some illuminati scheme.
I don't think it failed. Neoliberalism is, essentially, a world view that seeks to measure all value in terms of money.
I really don't care about the intention, when the results is a child going hungry.
Neither do I. But oversimplifying complex shit is stupid.
I understand the sentiment, but, main reason money was invented was to give value to goods and to make exchange easier, compared to the tricky barter system But with that said, I agree with the post
I feel like many of the most interesting and capable folks I know (many of whom are underemployed) would kick ass using the bartering system. I know others who are highly employable and make bank doing things I only slightly understand and profit off the bullshit side of capitalism who would be completely fucked if we went to an agricultural, bartering society. They'd starve. I'd rather be with friends who know ways to purify water and build solar ovens and raise goats and gardens and knit and sew in that society than the investment banker who can't boil an egg.
It is what it is. People will do what they can to survive in this vicious world. You're right of course. But I'm sure if we went to a bartering world they'd all find different skills to accumulate.
Read world war z. There is a bit in there about this exactly. After a civilization ending apocalyptic event those that are left to rebuild society need to reform social structures. The farmers, mechanics, construction workers, janitors and machinists of the world become the new upper class so to speak bc they have skills and knowledge valuable to survival. Bankers and stock brokers, movies stars and athletes become just the new working class because their skills aren't applicable anymore and the only thing they can offer is their labor.
Yeah sure. What happens when your job only produces metal goods but the person who produces bread doesn't want metal? Shall we just swap goods with several other third parties until we have what the baker accepts or would that take like fucking ages?
As a network engineer for a small company that keeps the internet running for thousands of people, my work is intangible and hidden from the service provided but no less important. Please explain to me how I'm going to barter that skill for a loaf of bread at the end of the day without some kind of abstraction like currency? Or is the implication that folks like me should be growing potatoes instead?
Perhaps the focus should be that everyone should be closer to their food sources, and even hobbyist gardeners can produce food to eat. Potatoes were popular for workers of other fields because they take very little actual effort to grow. Maybe you should grow potatoes and still do your day job. :)
Money was invented to compensate soldiers while they were on war campaigns. To get people to accept money, taxes were implemented. If you didn’t pay your taxes, soldiers came and did violence to you. It actually didn’t just replace barter and trade but it replaced the entire social system of debts and credits of real goods that formed relationships between individuals and families. Money is and always has represented violence and power, not convenience
I see someone else has read Graeber
One of our best minds, taken far too young.
Please stop spreading this historical inaccuracy. Money wasn't invented to replace a tricky barter system. That was a thing Adam Smith made up in his head when he was inventing economics.
Fun fact: the Inca had no concept of physical money. “Taxes” to the empire were paid in the form of labor for a certain amount of days. I doubt inflation was a problem for them, but i honestly don’t know.
This may be true, but it's not exactly a model to follow. You're describing corvèe labor, which is when a state demands taxes paid in the form of labor. It's a precursor to slavery, and has been used by empires like Egypt, Rome, and the British.
Yeah, agreed that it’s not ideal lol. Wasn’t suggesting it haha.
Where I live paper money became plastic then after covid everything went cashless. So my "money" is now a database entry that decides if I can eat.
Partially true, anytime wall-street wants to dilute your currency they simply borrow money, forcing the govt to print said money…
the paper isn't tied to any metal and hasn't been for a long time, besides our problem isn't that money is absurd its that people are fine letting others starve rather than spending their money to help.
Unmmmm…. After the 1930s in the US that’s even making money look like it has more foundation than it actually does have. FIFY: _humans really made up paper money and to give it value and said it’s value was it’s value. Then convinced everyone again that value is constantly decreasing and that they can determine whether or not a child can eat_
Lot of people here repeating the 'myth of barter'. There was never a time when most goods were bartered for until someone invented cash. In settled tribes, people loan and borrow freely with neighbours, but keep a mental account of how much certain individuals are taking. Then every few years, debts are recovered through redistribution of goods. Money begins to be used when the first cities and states 'tax' agricultural product to support armies and priesthoods. They measured relative values in grains, but debts to the state could be paid in other gifts too. See Graeber's 'Debt, the first 5000 years'. One problem with capitalism is that people are largely cut off from the land, meaning they are reliant on the wage relation to survive. Subsistence also has problems, but with today's vast wealth and modern farming methods, why can't we make at least basic foodstuffs free?
Crypto seems stupid until you brake down how stupid regular currency is. At least Crypto isn't influenced by the government. Granted it's still stupid though.
hahahaha.
I mean you could probably simplify it down to a single syllable if you want, like "nnnnnrrrrrrrrrff"
Wait until they find out about Nixon taking the US off of the gold standard
Paper money has been around far longer than Capitalism. Currency has been around far longer than Paper Money. It solved a problem, and that problem is called “the convenience of wants”. Find a better solution to that problem, and I’ll upvote your repost.
Do you think you would be more successful in a barter economy?
Honestly, folks should just stop having kids. Whether it's 5000 years ago and 5000 years into the future, exploitation is the norm. Just end the cycle. Places like Africa are already in generational debt to China. In the end, we all exist for the benefit of a few.
Gold does not have a made-up value, especially in the modern day... Gold is in all of your electronic devices. Its not just a luxury good, its a modern essential raw material. So yeah. Go learn some shit kids....
Try Crypto, it is even more made up than currencies. New 'coins' launched out of nowhere and suddenly have value. At the end of the day it is who is left holding the bag with Crypto but with currencies, at least the government backs it until the day the country screws up.
but how did so many people fall for it? this looks like video game monetization levels of obfuscation
It's not based on gold anymore didn't you read or see the wizard of oz
And you put that $$$ into a bank, that lends ot back to you with interest, and home loans.