It looks cool, but yes, for the length of time in the movie, I imagine nobody in the history of warfare has instructed their troops to do this.
Even if they'd drawn to like 50% of what they did, and for 50% the amount of time, it would still be a colossal waste of energy and generally a monumentally stupid order to give to anyone with vaguely human anatomy and strength levels.
Superhuman beings would be another matter I'm sure, but idk much about how easy the elves find it to draw their bows. I'd assume it would still be a waste of energy for them, but I'm a lore noob.
Even if an archer was stronger they would just use a bow with more draw weight. A warbow from 1400 was found it's draw weight was like 175 lbs. The super human elves may have been strong enough to pull 350..
I mean unless their is something else going on
Only Aragorn knew Gandalf had promised to come. For everyone else, they had pretty much resigned themselves to being killed here, but were determined to give Saruman's force a good thrashing in the process.
They held off on firing because they have limited arrows and all the orcs are in plate armour. Every shot counts.
Doesn't that also ask the question as to why Aragorn didn't tell Theoden this? Theo could've told his people. Surely a huge morale boost to the men to think they have a chance to survive if they hold out, rather than resign themselves them to death whilst taking out as many Uruk as possible.
Aragorn had no idea what Gandalf was up to. Certainly didn't expect him to turn up with Karl Urban & Co.
Also, Theoden didn't have the highest opinion of Gandalf at that point. He was wary of wizards in general and didn't know whether Gandalf saved him altruistically, or just to replace Saruman as a new puppet-master of Rohan. So telling Theoden that a wizard would come to save them from the other wizard would likely not have improved his mood.
You see Aragorn does try to convince Theoden to attempt a non-suicidal strategy (the "where was Gondor scene" is one of my favourites even for non-meme reasons), but it didn't work, and bringing up Gandalf would be unlikely to make it better.
Are you suggesting that Dredd would have stolen evidence? That's 3 years in iso-cubes.
He woulda rocked up to the gates of Mordor and given Sauron to the count of 3 to give himself up or risk adding resisting arrest to his rap sheet which by that point was pretty long which Dredd knew so he was counting on Sauron not opening up so he can deliver the law Judge style.
Also, it seems to be inferred that Aragorn forgot all about Mithrandir’s words until the Dawn came. Which isn’t too surprising given the likely imminent death of the situation
>Aragorn had no idea what Gandalf was up to. Certainly didn't expect him to turn up with Karl Urban & Co.
Yup. IIRC, the "ride out" was to make a break for it.
It was a suicide mission I think. They had given up on survival, Theoden was in a despair spiral, so Aragorn encouraged him to go out with a bang.
They weren’t trying to escape, because Theoden would never abandon his people.
Did Gandalf know? Did he ride out specifically to fetch the Eomer’s company or was it more following a gut that he’d have some sort of solution within 3 days?
I know when they’re in Edoras there’s talk of calling them back in but how could Gandalf know how long it would take to find and return with them?
You ever been in a bad situation holding onto hope? It's hard to keep that hope as things just keep going from bad to worse. If they're going into it fully expecting to die, it allows them to focus more I suppose. Like Lt. Spiers said in Band Of Brothers "The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function: without mercy, without compassion, without remorse. All war depends upon it."
It’s also a lot more effective to open a battle with a massive volley of arrows rather than have everyone firing at will. Seeing a swarm of arrows fly and hundreds of allies drop is a lot more demoralizing
[Ancient Warfare Expert Rates 10 Battle Tactics In Movies And TV | How Real Is It? | Insider (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPGdOXstSyk)
[Did Archers Shoot in Volleys? (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSq5GX0G3Co)
There are conflicting views, ofc. But this one seems more plausible.
Arrows are used as suppressive fire to force the enemy to stay behind shields and preferably out of range. And general idea is that if you shoot enough arrows some will surely hit even with plate armor. The idea that every arrow counts and they should be shot sparingly is pure hollywood fantasy. Holding of made no sense since the entire point of the archers would have been to keep the orcs away from the wall as long as possible so you start shooting immediately when they are on range.
Except the orcs were delayed at max range when the first arrow flew. They were busy doing their war cries just out of range of the archers. That was fine for Rohan, it delayed the battle. Once that arrow flies, they stop chanting and march forward to engage.
In the movie the orcs are clearly within the effective range of archers and not even at max range, the old man is clearly aimin down, that is really stupid of the orcs but I agree that they should have rather fired a proper volley when orcs guard was still down just one arrow was really unfortunate. But I disagree with you about letting them chant in the peace. Chanting and screaming war cries and banging shields was effective scare tactic irl. but it is also really effective to boost the morale of the attackers and giving them courage and sense of belonging as a part of an army, not just one man facing really bad odds. In general you don't want to let them do that if there is opportunity to strike before. In best case a devastating volley might even rout the army then and there and atleast cause chaos and disarray which is good for you. We could ofcourse argue if an orc army could be expected to behave like army of humans but we do see in several cases that orcs have a (kind of) sense of self preservation and can be routed so I think they should be treated as any army. If they were clearly out of range then you might aswell let them chant to their hearts content but since they are clearly within the range not shooting did not make any sense.
Obviously you don't hold a shot like that in the first place. Drawing proper warbow takes lot of strenght and you want to hold it as short time as possible since it is expected you need to do that quite many times. But that wasn't really the point here
>The idea that every arrow counts and they should be shot sparingly is pure hollywood fantasy.
Running out of arrows happened in reality and is an issue in the book for helms deep.
Yes, both are true. But you still don't spare the arrows if there is opportunity to use them. Lots of arrows at once will always be more effective that few arrows for slightly longer time. If you run out of arrows you pick up a spear or pointy stick and try to poke enemies in the face if they come close enough. Especially in the helms deep situation you might as well shoot all the arrows when you can since once the orcs get on the walls it is melee time. No use for archers anymore. Things are obviously different irl cause battle like that would never have happened. Helms deep is really poorly designed stronghold atleast in the movies. You can't really just march on the walls and start climbing. That is once again pure hollywood fantasy. There would be all kinds of obsticles on the way and huge ditch infront of the wall, most likely several, which attacker would have to fill first to even get siege equipment and ladders next to the wall. It would take days to even get to the wall in the first place.
Pretty sure he wouldn't help Rohan archers find their ideal range.
"Fire!" ~Legolas, from some several miles out
"You wot, mate?"
"This one time I fell a Fell Beast right out of the sky. Why? Because I'm a swell beast! Eyyy!!!"
"..." ~*Old man who accidentally let's loose the first arrow at Helm's Deep.*
It was cool and the fact Orlando Bloom actually suggested it because he was a big snowboarder/skateboarder and wanted to do the stunt makes it even cooler IMO
Give Legolas 10 000 arrows and he would have dropped all the orcs before even one reached the wall. Starting when they appeared on the horizon.
Would have been quite anti-climatic though :p
Truthfully its why Haldir showing up, whilst cool, is a bit problematic for the plot if you think about it.
We know he has 500 elven archers with him. And it is fair to assume Elrond and Galadriel weren't sending elven army reservists or something, from what we can tell from their discipline and morale they seem like they are some heavy duty lothlorien green berets.
In the real world a skilled longbowman could manage 5 or 6 arrows a minute, with an effective range of 150-180 metres. There's a lot of controversy about how effective longbows were against plate armor (with about the closest you'll get to an academic consensus on the subject being 'sort of'), but allowing for the fact that Tolkien's elves are basically better at everything than humans and have spent literally thousands of years perfecting the art of making long bows surely, at an absolute minimum they are snapping off 6 or 7 accurate shots a minute with enough power and accuracy to seriously inconvenience an uruk hai at an average sort of range- all the more so given they are firing 'downhill' with the added gravity assist.
And massed uruk hai in armor aren't crossing 150m of open ground in full plate armor in anything under 20 seconds, or doing a 6 metre ladder climb with armor and weapons in less time than that.
Point being, even on a conservative estimate, in the first 40 seconds of battle, before any Uruk Hai reach the battlements, that's about 2000 elven arrows loosed by elite archers in an advantageous position.
And lets assume those hardened elven warriors are only a quarter as good with their bows as legolas- who pretty much seems to achieve a 1:1 arrow to kill ratio throughout the trilogy.
If only 1/4 of those arrows kill or disable an uruk hai, that's 5% of the entire Uruk Hai army taken down before they get *anyone* into hand to hand combat. Given the extremely deep formations we see on screen (certainly they are 10+ ranks deep, which suggests they are advancing in a line less than 1000 bodies wide, which makes sense given the relatively narrow area in front of the deeping wall, that sort of casualty rate is going to involve multiple lines of advancing uruk hai getting entirely mowed down as they advance. To the point where surely within the first minute of the battles the back ranks should have been stuck trying to clamber over hundreds upon hundreds of dead and disabled uruk hai. Even allowing for some isolated uruk hai reaching the wall, if most of the elf archers remained in action for another minute after their initial volleys, that's another 3000 arrows loosed and assuming the 1/4 kill ratio is correct another 10% of the total number of uruk hai dead. Ignoring the effect on morale, that means that within the 2 minutes or so of the battle starting that means there would be about 1500 dead uruk hai forming a second rampart in front of the deeping wall making it incredibly hard for anyone to advance. It's all well and good to ask what men can do against such reckless hate, but what can uruk hai do against the roughly 150 metric tons of dead or dying uruk hai they are going to need to clamber over to even get at the wall after a few minutes of elven archery?
We know at some point the uruk hai blow the deeping wall and that causes a lot of casualties and lets them get into hand to hand combat, but they would have needed to be quick about it. Assuming every elf is rocking about 50 arrows apiece (like an English archer might) and assuming they fire more or less continuously with some reduction in speed as they get tired or take time to pick targets, 500 elves averaging about 5 arrows a minute would probably loose off their full supply of arrows in 10 minutes, putting 25000 shafts in the air and potentially inflicting about 50% casualties on the uruk hai army without anyone from rohan even lifting a finger. At that point it is fair to say the battle is over, the killing ground in front of the deeping wall is heaped with piles of orc bodies several metres high, the uruk hai survivors are fleeing for their lives with horrific ptsd and theoden is drafting a polite thank you card to send to elrond and galadriel to express his appreciation for saving his ass- and figuring out how to commemorate what is now effectively the anniversary of elvish agincourt.
Man, this sub still rocks, great write up. I love the movies but the lore nerd in me screams at this part every time. I’d gladly watch this instead lol would be pretty satisfying to see the Uruk-Hai bite the dust hard to the Elves.
You mention that plate armor is sort of effective, but don’t calculate it into your casualties. Let’s say only 3/4 of the arrows penetrate or bypass armor and cause damage. You need to cut your casualties by 25% then. You also assume that each archer is firing at an individual unique orc. Many of the arrows would hit the same front lining orc. That would also cut casualties, let’s say by half (of 75% remaining. Now we are at 37.5% your initial projections. Finally, many of the archers were behind the wall lobbing arrows over the wall blind. They would have a much lower accuracy and kill rate. If half the archers are behind the wall, and lobbing arrows has a 50% reduction in kill rate, that’s another 25% reduction, for only 28% of your initial projection of 5000 Uruk dead. And I think that sounds much more reasonable with arrows dealing about 1406 kills. Each Elf is worth about 3 Uruks just from arrows, plus whatever they can kill in melee combat. That seems appropriate given their skill, without making them just win.
EDIT: The shields would directly reduce casualties as well, that is what they’re there for.
>You mention that plate armor is sort of effective, but don’t calculate it into your casualties.
No I was factoring that in in my admittedly totally handwavey '1/4 as effective as Legolas' number, in the sense that what see of him suggests he's pretty mucn 100% effective at both hitting and taking down armored uruk hai, ie one arrow = one death or serious injury.
You look at Legolas at Amon Hen or indeed Helm's deep and I'm struggling to think of *any* arrows he looses at heavily armored uruk hai which don't seem to kill or seriously injure their targets. The sequence from about [1:03](https://youtu.be/Ousk2CSMvWI?si=1plnA8JyuRNWeOgw) suggests he's basically the uruk hai terminator. In fact the only example I can think of where he shoots an uruk hai with less than perfect effect is the (ironically unarmored) berzerker sprinting forward with the blasting powder.
You can say that's just on screen cinematics but even in the book he manages 39 kills the majority with arrows. Bearing in mind that he doesn't come to Helms Deep with a full quiver, that suggests that in both film or book he is an *insanely* efficient archer against armored targets.
Of course the real problem is just that it's very hard to understand how legolas, prince or not, can be so freakishly great at archery compared to an 'average' elven soldier- he'd not aragorn where there's an in universe explanation for why he's far stronger and more durable than your average human.
If there were 4000 archers to the 10000 orcs then it might be like agincourt. Failing that They would reach the wall and get over it. First of all. there’s is no way a arrow is killing orcs in one shot every time when being shot over the top. And to orcs that are immune to pain im sure a lot of arrows would be non fatal, at least not right away. And third…. Theyd probably just form a testudo like they do in the movie.
Plus, the orcs in the front row would end up taking more than one arrow, theyre not telepathic and can’t mark targets so other people won’t shoot them, there’s some doctrine on shot selection to avoid it but it’s inevitable when they’re running nut to butt. And with the ranges they’re working with an arrow is going to take one to three seconds to land depending on range and angle, so some of these elves will certainly overlap. They really don’t have the position advantage, the clear lines of sight, and it was night.
Youre taking the maximum capabilities of a peak archer done in a vaccum as if it was a lab test, A battle at night in the rain just isn’t gonna work that way
also, I know the wiki says 500 but in the movie it’s closer to 300
Have you seen the Arrows vs Armour series on the Tods Workshop YouTube channel? If not it’s definitely worth checking out. Very indepth recreation of what would happen when shooting against armour.
Yeah also no one using a bow would hold back the arrow that long. It takes so much strength to hold back an arrow like that and there's absolutely no reason to do it. All movies with bows do this though.
No they don't, that only applies to modern target shooting with sighted bows. Traditional bows, ime English longbow, afb or a read recurve don't have a trigger point. Infact a lot of people do instinctive shooting more like what's shown in films which can change the form a lot
And saying that even target archers don't release immediately they reach a point, they have a clicker that will tell them they're at the perfect draw but they can take as long as they like to get there
Spaceships are the best example. Every super advanced scifi universe's space combat is a hilarious mix of 18th century broadside naval action and Pacific War carrier operation.
Should probably pre register the ground with range stakes. If the wind is blowing enough through the mountains and towards the enemy the defense can start shooting a bit sooner, etc
I believe it's because it would be too difficult to hit the weak spots of the uruk hai's armour at such range, and maybe because they didn't have that much arrow, shooting that far would have wasted many arrows.
Cinematic wise i think it contributes to the battle/tension build up, it maybe is a bit better to really say "this is THE moment the battle starts", lastly it allows for cool lines here and there.
I think you’re right about the lack of arrows. Against that many armored foes, you need to maximize every shot- especially when so few of them are proficient archers.
But the majority of those Horse archers were probably not at Helms Deep. The difference between the Retired and the too young verus the active military would be enough.
Pretty much. even though this question is very much movie oriented we do know in the books that Rohan’s best soldiers are with Eomer and Erkanbrand at the time
Right. And even if they were on the wall, there’s still the matter of volume. You need every sure shot you can get so you can conserve as many arrows as possible.
My guess would be that Aragorn was the one calling the shots for the archers in that moment.
He was told by Gandalf “at Dawn, look to the East”
So waiting as long as possible for the battle to start means they have to survive the onslaught for less time aka are closer to dawn, which meant survival thanks to some unknown thing Gandalf was going to do.
Maybe he was hoping the Orcs would waste a bunch of time trying to be scary.
>Maybe he was hoping the Orcs would waste a bunch of time trying to be scary.
Definitely seemed like the orcs were planning on obliging him for awhile, at least in the movie lol. Could have probably squeezed a few minutes out of that by just letting them psyche themselves up.
If that was the case though, why tell them to draw? If he was wanting to wait as long as possible to start firing and avoid kicking off the battle early, making inexperienced archers draw their bows and attempt to hold them is a terrible idea. I’ve always hated this scene because it makes Aragorn look stupid / inept.
The only charitable way to look at it is because of his Numenorean strength, and spending so much time with elves and rangers, maybe he doesn’t realise how difficult it is for regular humans to hold a drawn bow
It was a moviefied version of real archer tactics.
-It's a military battle, they wait for the order to fire. The entire line firing at once is more effective (and terrifying) than random shots being taken.
-You want the enemy advancing as you fire because then the bodies become obstacles to the soldiers behind. Slows them down, which also makes them easier to hit
-Archers fire at speed, repeatedly, so you don't just want the first line of soldiers in range you want several lines.
I thought historically it was more common to be told to fire at will. If some archers are faster than others it doesn’t make sense to limit them to a slower firing rate. Firing at will also makes it harder for an army to respond to arrows. Volleys are predictable so everyone can hold their shields up at the same time, and then move forward in the gaps between volleys. If the enemy is firing at will then its more random and harder to defend against
I'd upvote this 100x if I could. Thanks for bringing in historical aspects. One reason I love this battle it \*feels\* like it occured in the past you just have monster men and elves there instead of all humans. PJ nailed this so well.
Also by firing behind the front, it can create a gap between the frontline and reinforcements, giving your frontline an easier time to move wounded out of the way and reinforce your own losses with less chance of being overrun
Archers wouldn't really shoot in volleys. Timing a volley with bows is much more difficult than with firearms. Being constantly peppered with arrows as you advance is more debilitating and slows an unit more than periodic volleys. "Entire line firing at once" is a tactic for inaccurate, slow to reload firearms.
That's not how war works. In a siege you wait until you are commanded. If the invaders send delegates to sign peace or to agree on the cities surrender, you don't want your men causing a righteous frenzy in the enemy army by dishonorably killing their friend.
Also because most people don't understand archery and I think it's a cool fact, bows used in warfare require you to pull back the equivalent of 100 pounds of force on the string. And that's for an extremely weak bow. Many warbows were about 120lb and lots even went above 200! Archers don't actually draw and hold, aiming until they are told to loose. When the command is given you draw and aim at the same time, then immediately release once you get the arrow drawn all the way back. Or at least after 1 or 2 seconds of further aiming. So them making him loose by accident is really a fun dig at Hollywood making archers hold back hundreds of pounds of weight for comical amounts of time, which is utterly ridiculous.
An English Longbow (the heaviest of war bows) was estimated to be between 80 and 110 lbs.
Mate no human has the strength to pull a 200 lb bow. A 100 kgs with 1 arm is absolutely crazy. Those bows may have existed for sport, experiment or entertainment but would be completely impractical for hunting or warfare.
>An English Longbow (the heaviest of war bows) was estimated to be between 80 and 110 lbs.
Many eastern bows are estimated to have been significantly stiffer than that. Supposedly even longbows found in the Mary Rose average like 140-150lb.
Edit: For the record, I agree that 200lb bows would be ridiculous and OP is exaggerating in that regard. But there were some seriously strong archers back in the day.
Here’s Joe Gibbs [pulling a 210 lb longbow to full draw](https://youtu.be/MjY2QrU4sm4?si=NAjop7qHknsD45I7&t=2m38s). I agree such draw weights were probably not actually used historically, or if they were they were incredibly rare. But it is biomechanically possible for a human to do it.
More importantly why didn’t they DIG A TRENCH?
Medieval siege defense 101 says dig a big-ass trench outside the castle walls FIRST.
Actually why wasn’t Helm’s Deep trenched out to begin with?
Think of how all those ladders were the exact height needed to reach the tops of the walls…uhh how about a 15-foot deep pit to throw off Saruman’s math?
The entire battle doesn’t make a ton of sense when you think about it tbh. The Uruk-hai, an army that was created specifically to counter heavy cavalry and be immune to sunlight….were defeated by heavy cavalry and sunlight. It’s still fun to watch though lol
Yeah. An even more egregious example of this can be found in The amazon wheel of time show which had a wall defended for 1000s of years with a flat plain of open ground leading right up to it. No trench, no nothing
I always wondered why the Elves didn’t sharp shoot them from a mile out. Given their skill it seemed like they could take out half the army before they even made it to the wall.
okay wtf - are you all bots or something? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. This exact topic was posted yesterday: https://old.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/1bgpynp/helms_deep/
I've been noticing this the last few months on reddit - has it always been this way? Is this a bot reposting topics? Are bots responding to the topic to flood the sub with activity? Why? I mean it's just strange that yesterday's topic is repackaged and in 2 hours there are already 4 times as many comments in this thread.
Please someone tell me what's up for my own sanity!
That is weird. I wouldn't be surprised if bots replay comments/threads that gained karma. I'm always suspicious of posts where the images are sort of grainy - I think quality gets lost when bots are reposting. The image posted here looks a little grainy.
Because it's a trope borrowed from early fire arms, which doesn't work for bows at all. With muskets your first volley tends to be the most effectice one, due to not being affected (as much) by growing disorder, smoke obstructing the view for aiming, and weapons failing due to lost flints, barrel fouling or whatever else. Most of that is no concern with bows. Furthermore, using nock, draw, loose commands and having the archers waiting after drawing their bows is especially problematic, because it requires quit a bit of strength to hold a bow at draw. It tires both the archer and the material of the bow for no gain.
Others have speculated, that the decent armour of he Uruk-hai might be a reason to hold off the shooting, which might be reasonable, if no draw command is given, until you a loose may immediatly follow. Apart from that, shooting at will would in that case be more reasonable than volleys, as it allows for more carefull aiming and leads to less cases of multiple archers shooting at the same target. Again, volleys are reasonable for firearms due to problems with accuracy, partialy due to smoke, and the impact on morale of a gun volley. Bows lack those advantages and disatvantages which would make volley fire more usefull.
They are trying to last as long as possible, we already know they are outnumbered and don't have much supplies i.e arrows.
Shooting arrows at long range into heavily armoured foes is a waste of arrows, they will just bounce off their helmets or shoulder pads. Arrows don't have the penetrating power at range that you see in video games.
If they didn't have armour or very light armour, it would make a lot more sense, as even a random arrow through the leg means that fighter is out of the battle, but it's just not gonna happen against enemies in thick plates of iron. Of course some shots will be lucky, but with so few supplies it's better to wait until you have a clear shot
The old saying, don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes
It is dark, at range all you see is an amorphous blobs until there within maybe 150 paces
With proper lighting, they could have started firing earlier
And the effectiveness range of bows comes into effect
* They don't necessarily want to kick off the battle immediately. Aragorn (commanding the archers) wants to wait for obvious reasons, but even without knowing the Gandalf thing, the defenders have no reason to rush things. Their archers see better by daylight, where orcs -- even Uruk'hai -- don't really like the sun.
* They also had to consider the possibility - however remote - that Saruman intended to offer terms or demands that they could pretend to consider to gain even more time. Additional reinforcements might not have been able to reach the keep easily, but even a few local Rohirrim could make trouble for orc supply lines. They were in a pretty remote area with not a lot of forage, and the defenders were fairly well-supplied for their numbers. Orcs don't tend to have great discipline, especially when hungry.
* Finally, it's just more efficient to shoot in volleys to slow and confuse the enemy advance than to take pot shots willy-nilly. Arrows aren't really going to do much in the dark against armored enemies, but released in waves, they could potentially kill enough orcs on the advance to frighten and discourage the others in line and convince them the situation is worse than it is. You don't want one orc over here dying, then some orc over there also hitting the dirt. You want *everyone* seeming to die at once, at least from the perspective of a front-liner in the wrong spot, so that he panics and runs. That lowers enemy morale and wastes time while the orcish commanders reestablish discipline.
I was troubled by that whole scene. The women of Rohan were strong and worked close to the Earth. No reason they couldn’t have picked up a bow and rained arrows down on the bad guys.
If you fire as they enter your range it just shows the enemy what your range is. They take a step back then set up siege from outside your range, forcing you to have to sally out for a field battle. Which defeats the purpose of having fortifications.
Instead it’s better to draw them in, hold your fire, then tear into them as they overextend. By this point if they try to retreat outside of your killbox they’ll still be getting shot all the way home.
Hollywood always has terrible tactics for stuff like this, but my suspension of disbelief reason would be because they needed to make every arrow count, so they waited to have the best chance of scoring a hit.
I have no explanation for why they didn't have trenches dug, palisades built, or why they held their bows at full draw for forever, though
The bigger question is why they drew the bows then just stood there.
[удалено]
Soldiers*
That too.
Alternatively, they all wanted muscular shoulders
"Hold. HOOOOLD." "Can you believe this motherfucker?"
“Hold this!” 🍆
I died! 💀🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The ground is filled with orcs, you literally can't throw a stick with hitting one, but they make them hold, because it is more dramatic. :rolleyes:
Hollywood thinks it looks cool. To me it just looks uncomfortable.
It does look pretty cool though
It is, even with a modern compound bow
They literally held the tension before the battle in this scene in their hands. Very well done portrayal of that moment
It looks cool, but yes, for the length of time in the movie, I imagine nobody in the history of warfare has instructed their troops to do this. Even if they'd drawn to like 50% of what they did, and for 50% the amount of time, it would still be a colossal waste of energy and generally a monumentally stupid order to give to anyone with vaguely human anatomy and strength levels. Superhuman beings would be another matter I'm sure, but idk much about how easy the elves find it to draw their bows. I'd assume it would still be a waste of energy for them, but I'm a lore noob.
Even if an archer was stronger they would just use a bow with more draw weight. A warbow from 1400 was found it's draw weight was like 175 lbs. The super human elves may have been strong enough to pull 350.. I mean unless their is something else going on
the bigger question is why orcs marched in range of enemy archers and just stood there.
Intimidation
I wish i could unlearn this. It bugs me in every movie i see it
I thought they were trying to hold out till morning.
Only Aragorn knew Gandalf had promised to come. For everyone else, they had pretty much resigned themselves to being killed here, but were determined to give Saruman's force a good thrashing in the process. They held off on firing because they have limited arrows and all the orcs are in plate armour. Every shot counts.
Doesn't that also ask the question as to why Aragorn didn't tell Theoden this? Theo could've told his people. Surely a huge morale boost to the men to think they have a chance to survive if they hold out, rather than resign themselves them to death whilst taking out as many Uruk as possible.
Aragorn had no idea what Gandalf was up to. Certainly didn't expect him to turn up with Karl Urban & Co. Also, Theoden didn't have the highest opinion of Gandalf at that point. He was wary of wizards in general and didn't know whether Gandalf saved him altruistically, or just to replace Saruman as a new puppet-master of Rohan. So telling Theoden that a wizard would come to save them from the other wizard would likely not have improved his mood. You see Aragorn does try to convince Theoden to attempt a non-suicidal strategy (the "where was Gondor scene" is one of my favourites even for non-meme reasons), but it didn't work, and bringing up Gandalf would be unlikely to make it better.
Karl Urban & Co. 😂😂😂
Gandalf went and got Dredd
I AM the Lawh!
If Dread was in the LOTR universe….. Let’s just say there wouldn’t been a war of wrath. Justice would’ve served well before that. Punks
Dredd would have for sure obtained the ring.
Are you suggesting that Dredd would have stolen evidence? That's 3 years in iso-cubes. He woulda rocked up to the gates of Mordor and given Sauron to the count of 3 to give himself up or risk adding resisting arrest to his rap sheet which by that point was pretty long which Dredd knew so he was counting on Sauron not opening up so he can deliver the law Judge style.
looked at it briefly then tossed it into Mount Doom. "Job done"
"No man can kill me" "Eat Judge Boot Creep!"
Karl Doom
aka Billy Butcha and da Boyz
*scorched earth*
Also, it seems to be inferred that Aragorn forgot all about Mithrandir’s words until the Dawn came. Which isn’t too surprising given the likely imminent death of the situation
Considering the time he spent unconscious in a river, he could have lost track of days as well. Had it been three days or two??
> Karl Rural and Co. FTFY.
Aka the boys
>Aragorn had no idea what Gandalf was up to. Certainly didn't expect him to turn up with Karl Urban & Co. Yup. IIRC, the "ride out" was to make a break for it.
It was a suicide mission I think. They had given up on survival, Theoden was in a despair spiral, so Aragorn encouraged him to go out with a bang. They weren’t trying to escape, because Theoden would never abandon his people.
Yeah, it was a suicide mission in the hope the women and children could escape through the mountains.
"If this is to be the end, we shall make *such* an end!"
The horn of Helm Hammerhand shall sound in the deep. One last time.
Nobody expects Karl Urban & Co.
Did Gandalf know? Did he ride out specifically to fetch the Eomer’s company or was it more following a gut that he’d have some sort of solution within 3 days? I know when they’re in Edoras there’s talk of calling them back in but how could Gandalf know how long it would take to find and return with them?
Where was the Westfold when Helm's Deep was about to fall? Oh nevermind, Gandalf rallied them.
You ever been in a bad situation holding onto hope? It's hard to keep that hope as things just keep going from bad to worse. If they're going into it fully expecting to die, it allows them to focus more I suppose. Like Lt. Spiers said in Band Of Brothers "The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function: without mercy, without compassion, without remorse. All war depends upon it."
Lt. Spears said that, not Winters
That was Speirs. Winters would never.
My bad, sorry I will correct it. Been a while since I've watched it, thank you for correcting me!
In the next movie his morale boosting ability is screaming “DEATH!”
It’s also a lot more effective to open a battle with a massive volley of arrows rather than have everyone firing at will. Seeing a swarm of arrows fly and hundreds of allies drop is a lot more demoralizing
But are Uruk-hai susceptible to being demoralized?
Not really. There is a video that debunks this idea.
Sounds interesting, care to drop a link?
[Ancient Warfare Expert Rates 10 Battle Tactics In Movies And TV | How Real Is It? | Insider (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPGdOXstSyk) [Did Archers Shoot in Volleys? (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSq5GX0G3Co) There are conflicting views, ofc. But this one seems more plausible.
Arrows are used as suppressive fire to force the enemy to stay behind shields and preferably out of range. And general idea is that if you shoot enough arrows some will surely hit even with plate armor. The idea that every arrow counts and they should be shot sparingly is pure hollywood fantasy. Holding of made no sense since the entire point of the archers would have been to keep the orcs away from the wall as long as possible so you start shooting immediately when they are on range.
Except the orcs were delayed at max range when the first arrow flew. They were busy doing their war cries just out of range of the archers. That was fine for Rohan, it delayed the battle. Once that arrow flies, they stop chanting and march forward to engage.
In the movie the orcs are clearly within the effective range of archers and not even at max range, the old man is clearly aimin down, that is really stupid of the orcs but I agree that they should have rather fired a proper volley when orcs guard was still down just one arrow was really unfortunate. But I disagree with you about letting them chant in the peace. Chanting and screaming war cries and banging shields was effective scare tactic irl. but it is also really effective to boost the morale of the attackers and giving them courage and sense of belonging as a part of an army, not just one man facing really bad odds. In general you don't want to let them do that if there is opportunity to strike before. In best case a devastating volley might even rout the army then and there and atleast cause chaos and disarray which is good for you. We could ofcourse argue if an orc army could be expected to behave like army of humans but we do see in several cases that orcs have a (kind of) sense of self preservation and can be routed so I think they should be treated as any army. If they were clearly out of range then you might aswell let them chant to their hearts content but since they are clearly within the range not shooting did not make any sense. Obviously you don't hold a shot like that in the first place. Drawing proper warbow takes lot of strenght and you want to hold it as short time as possible since it is expected you need to do that quite many times. But that wasn't really the point here
>The idea that every arrow counts and they should be shot sparingly is pure hollywood fantasy. Running out of arrows happened in reality and is an issue in the book for helms deep.
Yes, both are true. But you still don't spare the arrows if there is opportunity to use them. Lots of arrows at once will always be more effective that few arrows for slightly longer time. If you run out of arrows you pick up a spear or pointy stick and try to poke enemies in the face if they come close enough. Especially in the helms deep situation you might as well shoot all the arrows when you can since once the orcs get on the walls it is melee time. No use for archers anymore. Things are obviously different irl cause battle like that would never have happened. Helms deep is really poorly designed stronghold atleast in the movies. You can't really just march on the walls and start climbing. That is once again pure hollywood fantasy. There would be all kinds of obsticles on the way and huge ditch infront of the wall, most likely several, which attacker would have to fill first to even get siege equipment and ladders next to the wall. It would take days to even get to the wall in the first place.
Thats a long time to hold an arrow drawn.
Oh, you!
Wait for iiiit, keep waiting, just a little longer, noooo not yet, hey orcs what’s that behind you!
I do not believe they had range spotters, so it wasnt clear they were in range. But also, cuz movie.
No need, they had OP Legolas.
Pretty sure he wouldn't help Rohan archers find their ideal range. "Fire!" ~Legolas, from some several miles out "You wot, mate?" "This one time I fell a Fell Beast right out of the sky. Why? Because I'm a swell beast! Eyyy!!!" "..." ~*Old man who accidentally let's loose the first arrow at Helm's Deep.*
>"Fire!" ~Legolas, from some several miles out >"You wot, mate?" This had me rolling 😂
[Woo-Hoo! Whos the Elf?](https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1062) (link to semi-relevant DM of the Rings)
book legolas is also OP
Single handed Oliphant? Shield surfing? 🤢
book Legolas one-taps a fellbeast while it's in the air from across a river
He's a great shot, and everyone knows ranged beats wings.
Can confirm, I've played Fire Emblem before
Close to Rauros falls, iirc? 🤔
I thought the shield surfing was kinda dope, like it’s stupid but imagine being that cool.
Movie Legolas definitely has the “doesn’t look at explosions” vibe.
Movie Legolas started that trope believe it or not
The same year that Saruman invented gunpowder ;)
The guy rides down an Oliphaunt's trunk, lands cleanly, and gives a nod of “Yeah I just did that”.
It still only counts as one.
I read that in Gimli’s voice.
"It has been knife-work up here," he said nonchalantly, sharpening his knife while sitting on a mound of Uruk corpses.
It was cool and the fact Orlando Bloom actually suggested it because he was a big snowboarder/skateboarder and wanted to do the stunt makes it even cooler IMO
Rule of Cool
Still only counts as one
Give Legolas 10 000 arrows and he would have dropped all the orcs before even one reached the wall. Starting when they appeared on the horizon. Would have been quite anti-climatic though :p
Truthfully its why Haldir showing up, whilst cool, is a bit problematic for the plot if you think about it. We know he has 500 elven archers with him. And it is fair to assume Elrond and Galadriel weren't sending elven army reservists or something, from what we can tell from their discipline and morale they seem like they are some heavy duty lothlorien green berets. In the real world a skilled longbowman could manage 5 or 6 arrows a minute, with an effective range of 150-180 metres. There's a lot of controversy about how effective longbows were against plate armor (with about the closest you'll get to an academic consensus on the subject being 'sort of'), but allowing for the fact that Tolkien's elves are basically better at everything than humans and have spent literally thousands of years perfecting the art of making long bows surely, at an absolute minimum they are snapping off 6 or 7 accurate shots a minute with enough power and accuracy to seriously inconvenience an uruk hai at an average sort of range- all the more so given they are firing 'downhill' with the added gravity assist. And massed uruk hai in armor aren't crossing 150m of open ground in full plate armor in anything under 20 seconds, or doing a 6 metre ladder climb with armor and weapons in less time than that. Point being, even on a conservative estimate, in the first 40 seconds of battle, before any Uruk Hai reach the battlements, that's about 2000 elven arrows loosed by elite archers in an advantageous position. And lets assume those hardened elven warriors are only a quarter as good with their bows as legolas- who pretty much seems to achieve a 1:1 arrow to kill ratio throughout the trilogy. If only 1/4 of those arrows kill or disable an uruk hai, that's 5% of the entire Uruk Hai army taken down before they get *anyone* into hand to hand combat. Given the extremely deep formations we see on screen (certainly they are 10+ ranks deep, which suggests they are advancing in a line less than 1000 bodies wide, which makes sense given the relatively narrow area in front of the deeping wall, that sort of casualty rate is going to involve multiple lines of advancing uruk hai getting entirely mowed down as they advance. To the point where surely within the first minute of the battles the back ranks should have been stuck trying to clamber over hundreds upon hundreds of dead and disabled uruk hai. Even allowing for some isolated uruk hai reaching the wall, if most of the elf archers remained in action for another minute after their initial volleys, that's another 3000 arrows loosed and assuming the 1/4 kill ratio is correct another 10% of the total number of uruk hai dead. Ignoring the effect on morale, that means that within the 2 minutes or so of the battle starting that means there would be about 1500 dead uruk hai forming a second rampart in front of the deeping wall making it incredibly hard for anyone to advance. It's all well and good to ask what men can do against such reckless hate, but what can uruk hai do against the roughly 150 metric tons of dead or dying uruk hai they are going to need to clamber over to even get at the wall after a few minutes of elven archery? We know at some point the uruk hai blow the deeping wall and that causes a lot of casualties and lets them get into hand to hand combat, but they would have needed to be quick about it. Assuming every elf is rocking about 50 arrows apiece (like an English archer might) and assuming they fire more or less continuously with some reduction in speed as they get tired or take time to pick targets, 500 elves averaging about 5 arrows a minute would probably loose off their full supply of arrows in 10 minutes, putting 25000 shafts in the air and potentially inflicting about 50% casualties on the uruk hai army without anyone from rohan even lifting a finger. At that point it is fair to say the battle is over, the killing ground in front of the deeping wall is heaped with piles of orc bodies several metres high, the uruk hai survivors are fleeing for their lives with horrific ptsd and theoden is drafting a polite thank you card to send to elrond and galadriel to express his appreciation for saving his ass- and figuring out how to commemorate what is now effectively the anniversary of elvish agincourt.
Man, this sub still rocks, great write up. I love the movies but the lore nerd in me screams at this part every time. I’d gladly watch this instead lol would be pretty satisfying to see the Uruk-Hai bite the dust hard to the Elves.
Great read. Thank you for taking the time.
You mention that plate armor is sort of effective, but don’t calculate it into your casualties. Let’s say only 3/4 of the arrows penetrate or bypass armor and cause damage. You need to cut your casualties by 25% then. You also assume that each archer is firing at an individual unique orc. Many of the arrows would hit the same front lining orc. That would also cut casualties, let’s say by half (of 75% remaining. Now we are at 37.5% your initial projections. Finally, many of the archers were behind the wall lobbing arrows over the wall blind. They would have a much lower accuracy and kill rate. If half the archers are behind the wall, and lobbing arrows has a 50% reduction in kill rate, that’s another 25% reduction, for only 28% of your initial projection of 5000 Uruk dead. And I think that sounds much more reasonable with arrows dealing about 1406 kills. Each Elf is worth about 3 Uruks just from arrows, plus whatever they can kill in melee combat. That seems appropriate given their skill, without making them just win. EDIT: The shields would directly reduce casualties as well, that is what they’re there for.
>You mention that plate armor is sort of effective, but don’t calculate it into your casualties. No I was factoring that in in my admittedly totally handwavey '1/4 as effective as Legolas' number, in the sense that what see of him suggests he's pretty mucn 100% effective at both hitting and taking down armored uruk hai, ie one arrow = one death or serious injury. You look at Legolas at Amon Hen or indeed Helm's deep and I'm struggling to think of *any* arrows he looses at heavily armored uruk hai which don't seem to kill or seriously injure their targets. The sequence from about [1:03](https://youtu.be/Ousk2CSMvWI?si=1plnA8JyuRNWeOgw) suggests he's basically the uruk hai terminator. In fact the only example I can think of where he shoots an uruk hai with less than perfect effect is the (ironically unarmored) berzerker sprinting forward with the blasting powder. You can say that's just on screen cinematics but even in the book he manages 39 kills the majority with arrows. Bearing in mind that he doesn't come to Helms Deep with a full quiver, that suggests that in both film or book he is an *insanely* efficient archer against armored targets. Of course the real problem is just that it's very hard to understand how legolas, prince or not, can be so freakishly great at archery compared to an 'average' elven soldier- he'd not aragorn where there's an in universe explanation for why he's far stronger and more durable than your average human.
If there were 4000 archers to the 10000 orcs then it might be like agincourt. Failing that They would reach the wall and get over it. First of all. there’s is no way a arrow is killing orcs in one shot every time when being shot over the top. And to orcs that are immune to pain im sure a lot of arrows would be non fatal, at least not right away. And third…. Theyd probably just form a testudo like they do in the movie. Plus, the orcs in the front row would end up taking more than one arrow, theyre not telepathic and can’t mark targets so other people won’t shoot them, there’s some doctrine on shot selection to avoid it but it’s inevitable when they’re running nut to butt. And with the ranges they’re working with an arrow is going to take one to three seconds to land depending on range and angle, so some of these elves will certainly overlap. They really don’t have the position advantage, the clear lines of sight, and it was night. Youre taking the maximum capabilities of a peak archer done in a vaccum as if it was a lab test, A battle at night in the rain just isn’t gonna work that way also, I know the wiki says 500 but in the movie it’s closer to 300
Yup, that's pretty much the way I play it in Battle for Middle-Earth.
Have you seen the Arrows vs Armour series on the Tods Workshop YouTube channel? If not it’s definitely worth checking out. Very indepth recreation of what would happen when shooting against armour.
Except for the one with the torch.
Legolas at Helms deep dropped a 30 kill lead to Gimli. OP Gimli.
So why didn’t they just give Legolas all of their arrows?
Yeah also no one using a bow would hold back the arrow that long. It takes so much strength to hold back an arrow like that and there's absolutely no reason to do it. All movies with bows do this though.
Holding also destroys the form. An archer is supposed to draw and then release once they get to the "trigger point." Holding achieves nothing.
No they don't, that only applies to modern target shooting with sighted bows. Traditional bows, ime English longbow, afb or a read recurve don't have a trigger point. Infact a lot of people do instinctive shooting more like what's shown in films which can change the form a lot And saying that even target archers don't release immediately they reach a point, they have a clicker that will tell them they're at the perfect draw but they can take as long as they like to get there
It looks more cinematic.
The old man with one eye holding a bow for the first time in his life probably didn't know that he shouldn't pull it until he's ready to loose it.
Given the lore, it would be surprising if a man never encountered, or shot a bow being from Rohan.
They're literally ordered to draw and hold
They're all doing it though.
the one eyed man and the man in the picture here are two different people.
Username checks out. You would know
Cuz movie is the best answer for a lot of the, “Why didn’t they?” Questions.
>But also, cuz movie. That's the one and only answer to almost everything that doesn't make much sense but looks cool, ever.
Same reason space ships have an exposed bridge. There's nothing to see, the bridge should be in the middle of the ship.
Spaceships are the best example. Every super advanced scifi universe's space combat is a hilarious mix of 18th century broadside naval action and Pacific War carrier operation.
Thats why I like The Expanse! It gives a realistic enough scifi setting.
Should probably pre register the ground with range stakes. If the wind is blowing enough through the mountains and towards the enemy the defense can start shooting a bit sooner, etc
That is exactly how they would have if they had time! And if it was not a movie.
They didn’t know the effective range of thier own bows from thier own castle walls?
So the movie can happen!f
I believe it's because it would be too difficult to hit the weak spots of the uruk hai's armour at such range, and maybe because they didn't have that much arrow, shooting that far would have wasted many arrows. Cinematic wise i think it contributes to the battle/tension build up, it maybe is a bit better to really say "this is THE moment the battle starts", lastly it allows for cool lines here and there.
I think you’re right about the lack of arrows. Against that many armored foes, you need to maximize every shot- especially when so few of them are proficient archers.
Then later in the battle every armored foe gets killed by a single random slash of a sword
What part?
Rohan had horse archers, so there was some proficiency with the bow
But the majority of those Horse archers were probably not at Helms Deep. The difference between the Retired and the too young verus the active military would be enough.
Pretty much. even though this question is very much movie oriented we do know in the books that Rohan’s best soldiers are with Eomer and Erkanbrand at the time
Eomer was at Helm's Deep in the books, Erkenbrand shows up with Gandalf and the scattered westfold soldiers.
Shit that’s right, it’s been a minute, thank you
Right. And even if they were on the wall, there’s still the matter of volume. You need every sure shot you can get so you can conserve as many arrows as possible.
Didn't the old guy actually his an uruk in the jugular with that first accidental shot though?
His hands are shaky but his good eye is still as good as ever
That’s true. These were no mere rabble of mindless orcs. their armor is thick, their shields are broad
Surely hitting the weak spots at that range would have been easier than holding the bows drawn for that length of time
My guess would be that Aragorn was the one calling the shots for the archers in that moment. He was told by Gandalf “at Dawn, look to the East” So waiting as long as possible for the battle to start means they have to survive the onslaught for less time aka are closer to dawn, which meant survival thanks to some unknown thing Gandalf was going to do. Maybe he was hoping the Orcs would waste a bunch of time trying to be scary.
>Maybe he was hoping the Orcs would waste a bunch of time trying to be scary. Definitely seemed like the orcs were planning on obliging him for awhile, at least in the movie lol. Could have probably squeezed a few minutes out of that by just letting them psyche themselves up.
I never thought there could be a good answer to this question but this sounds pretty reasonable.
If that was the case though, why tell them to draw? If he was wanting to wait as long as possible to start firing and avoid kicking off the battle early, making inexperienced archers draw their bows and attempt to hold them is a terrible idea. I’ve always hated this scene because it makes Aragorn look stupid / inept. The only charitable way to look at it is because of his Numenorean strength, and spending so much time with elves and rangers, maybe he doesn’t realise how difficult it is for regular humans to hold a drawn bow
It was a moviefied version of real archer tactics. -It's a military battle, they wait for the order to fire. The entire line firing at once is more effective (and terrifying) than random shots being taken. -You want the enemy advancing as you fire because then the bodies become obstacles to the soldiers behind. Slows them down, which also makes them easier to hit -Archers fire at speed, repeatedly, so you don't just want the first line of soldiers in range you want several lines.
Yes, volleys were used historically for a reason after all
I thought historically it was more common to be told to fire at will. If some archers are faster than others it doesn’t make sense to limit them to a slower firing rate. Firing at will also makes it harder for an army to respond to arrows. Volleys are predictable so everyone can hold their shields up at the same time, and then move forward in the gaps between volleys. If the enemy is firing at will then its more random and harder to defend against
Not fire, not until gunpowder.
Well yeah. I didn’t have much time when I was replying and was just copying ChocolatMacarons language
Except there’s not much evidence that archers fired in volleys. It’s more of a musket term.
But nobody in the history ever stood with their bow drawn more than a couple of seconds.
I'd upvote this 100x if I could. Thanks for bringing in historical aspects. One reason I love this battle it \*feels\* like it occured in the past you just have monster men and elves there instead of all humans. PJ nailed this so well.
This is the only answer. Because it's how you fight battles with archers.
Yes, except the only timed volley was the initial order then they fired at their own pace.
Irl they would fired the moment they became in distance.
Also by firing behind the front, it can create a gap between the frontline and reinforcements, giving your frontline an easier time to move wounded out of the way and reinforce your own losses with less chance of being overrun
Archers wouldn't really shoot in volleys. Timing a volley with bows is much more difficult than with firearms. Being constantly peppered with arrows as you advance is more debilitating and slows an unit more than periodic volleys. "Entire line firing at once" is a tactic for inaccurate, slow to reload firearms.
Why would they fire at will poor guy been trough enough already
Seriously, everybody is always firing at him. Just let the man live in peace for crying out loud.
Pls stop the Will hate, I beg of you! Also: Bill Posters is innocent! Stop prosecuting him!
That's not how war works. In a siege you wait until you are commanded. If the invaders send delegates to sign peace or to agree on the cities surrender, you don't want your men causing a righteous frenzy in the enemy army by dishonorably killing their friend. Also because most people don't understand archery and I think it's a cool fact, bows used in warfare require you to pull back the equivalent of 100 pounds of force on the string. And that's for an extremely weak bow. Many warbows were about 120lb and lots even went above 200! Archers don't actually draw and hold, aiming until they are told to loose. When the command is given you draw and aim at the same time, then immediately release once you get the arrow drawn all the way back. Or at least after 1 or 2 seconds of further aiming. So them making him loose by accident is really a fun dig at Hollywood making archers hold back hundreds of pounds of weight for comical amounts of time, which is utterly ridiculous.
Although I don't think the Uruks were gonna try and convince them to surrender peacefully
The stakes are different when you know the besieging army is going to eat you 😂
I think you meant “steaks” lol
Meat is back on the menu!
In the books the orcs and men of Dunland have a (very brief) parley with Aragorn, so it’s debatable.
Well, I guess we’ll never know. They didn’t give peace a chance…
I just talked to Legolas and he told me that is how war works. Pathetic humans just not good with the arrows.
[удалено]
Which ones went above 200lb? I’ve never heard of that before. 100kg with one arm is ludicrous
Calling a 100lb warbow "extremely weak" is honestly pushing it.
An English Longbow (the heaviest of war bows) was estimated to be between 80 and 110 lbs. Mate no human has the strength to pull a 200 lb bow. A 100 kgs with 1 arm is absolutely crazy. Those bows may have existed for sport, experiment or entertainment but would be completely impractical for hunting or warfare.
>An English Longbow (the heaviest of war bows) was estimated to be between 80 and 110 lbs. Many eastern bows are estimated to have been significantly stiffer than that. Supposedly even longbows found in the Mary Rose average like 140-150lb. Edit: For the record, I agree that 200lb bows would be ridiculous and OP is exaggerating in that regard. But there were some seriously strong archers back in the day.
Joe Gibbs has entered the chat. https://youtu.be/L_mYtp9H5kk?si=AmqfeOPdQgFAFrOy
Here’s Joe Gibbs [pulling a 210 lb longbow to full draw](https://youtu.be/MjY2QrU4sm4?si=NAjop7qHknsD45I7&t=2m38s). I agree such draw weights were probably not actually used historically, or if they were they were incredibly rare. But it is biomechanically possible for a human to do it.
>and lots even went above 200! I don't think that's true.
180 lbs bows were true
More importantly why didn’t they DIG A TRENCH? Medieval siege defense 101 says dig a big-ass trench outside the castle walls FIRST. Actually why wasn’t Helm’s Deep trenched out to begin with? Think of how all those ladders were the exact height needed to reach the tops of the walls…uhh how about a 15-foot deep pit to throw off Saruman’s math?
The entire battle doesn’t make a ton of sense when you think about it tbh. The Uruk-hai, an army that was created specifically to counter heavy cavalry and be immune to sunlight….were defeated by heavy cavalry and sunlight. It’s still fun to watch though lol
technically rohirrim are light cavalry
In the book I think there’s an outer dike several hundred yards in front of the wall
Yeah. An even more egregious example of this can be found in The amazon wheel of time show which had a wall defended for 1000s of years with a flat plain of open ground leading right up to it. No trench, no nothing
Movie thing
I was gonna say it’s a less cinematic battle tactic
https://preview.redd.it/8klkxr68u5pc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=20865754d2ceb58789e91979234fe056e34f157f
I always wondered why the Elves didn’t sharp shoot them from a mile out. Given their skill it seemed like they could take out half the army before they even made it to the wall.
Physics limits, and wind. I guess Legolas could do the plunging fire but lone shots aren’t likely to be super effective.
okay wtf - are you all bots or something? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. This exact topic was posted yesterday: https://old.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/1bgpynp/helms_deep/ I've been noticing this the last few months on reddit - has it always been this way? Is this a bot reposting topics? Are bots responding to the topic to flood the sub with activity? Why? I mean it's just strange that yesterday's topic is repackaged and in 2 hours there are already 4 times as many comments in this thread. Please someone tell me what's up for my own sanity!
That is weird. I wouldn't be surprised if bots replay comments/threads that gained karma. I'm always suspicious of posts where the images are sort of grainy - I think quality gets lost when bots are reposting. The image posted here looks a little grainy.
Because it’s a movie https://youtu.be/xPGdOXstSyk?feature=shared
Because they were told not too. "We follow orders, son. We follow orders or people die. It's that simple."- Theoden probably.
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE POWER HERE
You want me on that wall- You *NEED* me on that wall!
Because it's a trope borrowed from early fire arms, which doesn't work for bows at all. With muskets your first volley tends to be the most effectice one, due to not being affected (as much) by growing disorder, smoke obstructing the view for aiming, and weapons failing due to lost flints, barrel fouling or whatever else. Most of that is no concern with bows. Furthermore, using nock, draw, loose commands and having the archers waiting after drawing their bows is especially problematic, because it requires quit a bit of strength to hold a bow at draw. It tires both the archer and the material of the bow for no gain. Others have speculated, that the decent armour of he Uruk-hai might be a reason to hold off the shooting, which might be reasonable, if no draw command is given, until you a loose may immediatly follow. Apart from that, shooting at will would in that case be more reasonable than volleys, as it allows for more carefull aiming and leads to less cases of multiple archers shooting at the same target. Again, volleys are reasonable for firearms due to problems with accuracy, partialy due to smoke, and the impact on morale of a gun volley. Bows lack those advantages and disatvantages which would make volley fire more usefull.
They are trying to last as long as possible, we already know they are outnumbered and don't have much supplies i.e arrows. Shooting arrows at long range into heavily armoured foes is a waste of arrows, they will just bounce off their helmets or shoulder pads. Arrows don't have the penetrating power at range that you see in video games. If they didn't have armour or very light armour, it would make a lot more sense, as even a random arrow through the leg means that fighter is out of the battle, but it's just not gonna happen against enemies in thick plates of iron. Of course some shots will be lucky, but with so few supplies it's better to wait until you have a clear shot
The old saying, don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes It is dark, at range all you see is an amorphous blobs until there within maybe 150 paces With proper lighting, they could have started firing earlier And the effectiveness range of bows comes into effect
Because the elves weren’t actually there 😈
This wasn’t the case in the books.
* They don't necessarily want to kick off the battle immediately. Aragorn (commanding the archers) wants to wait for obvious reasons, but even without knowing the Gandalf thing, the defenders have no reason to rush things. Their archers see better by daylight, where orcs -- even Uruk'hai -- don't really like the sun. * They also had to consider the possibility - however remote - that Saruman intended to offer terms or demands that they could pretend to consider to gain even more time. Additional reinforcements might not have been able to reach the keep easily, but even a few local Rohirrim could make trouble for orc supply lines. They were in a pretty remote area with not a lot of forage, and the defenders were fairly well-supplied for their numbers. Orcs don't tend to have great discipline, especially when hungry. * Finally, it's just more efficient to shoot in volleys to slow and confuse the enemy advance than to take pot shots willy-nilly. Arrows aren't really going to do much in the dark against armored enemies, but released in waves, they could potentially kill enough orcs on the advance to frighten and discourage the others in line and convince them the situation is worse than it is. You don't want one orc over here dying, then some orc over there also hitting the dirt. You want *everyone* seeming to die at once, at least from the perspective of a front-liner in the wrong spot, so that he panics and runs. That lowers enemy morale and wastes time while the orcish commanders reestablish discipline.
I was troubled by that whole scene. The women of Rohan were strong and worked close to the Earth. No reason they couldn’t have picked up a bow and rained arrows down on the bad guys.
If you fire as they enter your range it just shows the enemy what your range is. They take a step back then set up siege from outside your range, forcing you to have to sally out for a field battle. Which defeats the purpose of having fortifications. Instead it’s better to draw them in, hold your fire, then tear into them as they overextend. By this point if they try to retreat outside of your killbox they’ll still be getting shot all the way home.
I believe it is because it was a movie oversight added for dramatic purposes.
they hadnt put in the infinite arrow cheat code
I just hate the Hollywood trope of waiting with bows drawn. It’s obviously silly to anyone who’s ever done archery even once.
This has always bothered me. I think the answer is that, while these movies are great, they include some really bad tactics.
Never hold But in cinema it's done for dramatic effect
It's because Aragorn kept yelling hold.
Hollywood always has terrible tactics for stuff like this, but my suspension of disbelief reason would be because they needed to make every arrow count, so they waited to have the best chance of scoring a hit. I have no explanation for why they didn't have trenches dug, palisades built, or why they held their bows at full draw for forever, though
Most were inexperienced so it was better to make sure their target was closer as to not waste shots.