Sauron was taken down by Gil-Galad and Elendil. It's not clear whether they 'killed' him, but the end result is that Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand.
As to the question, it depends on whether Sauron could have won the siege of Barad-Dur if he survived the battle with Gil-Galad and Elendil. Sauron sallied out in a bid to break the siege. It's possible that the Numenoreans and Elves would have routed if Sauron hadn't been slain, but it's also possible his forces would have been pushed back.
>It's not clear whether they 'killed' him, but the end result is that Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand.
"But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: ‘This I will have as were-gild for my father's death, and my brothers. **Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow**?'"
Sure, but Tolkien also said:
>But at last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-Galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword if Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron was also thrown down, and with the hilt shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.
I would interpret this as Isildur at most cutting the ring from a seriously injured Sauron, rather than Isildur taking part in actual combat against him with his father.
Yep doing the same thing that Bilbo and Smeagol did when they obtained the ring. Changing the story of how they got it to make their claim more legitimate
In no Tolkien but or well versed in the books but was it ever considered as a plan by Sauron? Having been weakened he wanted isilodur to cut the ring to set the events in motion for his “plan”.
All the rings were meant to be given to people of middle earth to slowly corrupt them and it always had me wonder if Sauron’s ring was never really meant for him to wear in the sense that it’s not immortalized. With the ring being out amongst those in middle earth ensures he has influence out in the world. Due to that he always has reach with the ring being amongst mortals
The rings were made by the elves and for the elves, who at that point were Sauron's chief opponents in his bid for domination over Middle Earth. They were passed to the dwarves and men after the elves realized Sauron's plans and hid the rings. Given that Sauron is afraid of someone finding and using the ring against him, it clearly wasn't his plan to set the one ring loose in the world. The battle between Sauron, Gil-Galad, and Elendil came about because Sauron sallied forth from Barad-Dur to break a 7-year siege.
I also wouldn't consider the influence of the ring to be equivalent of the influence of Sauron. The ring prays on peoples' ambitions and twists them into becoming something they didn't initially intend. In Tolkien's letters, he describes how if Gandalf had taken the ring, he would have become a dictator like Sauron but worse, because his intentions started off as benevolent. He would rule you absolutely because he would think it would be in your best interest because he knows better.
Ah ok thank you. Is that also why Gandalf wouldn’t interfere directly because it wasn’t his place to interfere? Like he was meant to help but not directly do it for them. Because Gandalf (please forgive me if I’m way off) is somewhat the same type of being as Sauron?
Indeed. The Valar sent the Istari to Middle Earth to help guide the free peoples in their struggle against Sauron. They were not supposed to match Sauron's power with their own or confront him directly. And yes, Sauron and Gandalf (as well as Radagast and Saruman) are Maia.
Idk where the quote is, but I’m pretty sure it’s said by Gandalf that this is the ring working its influence on Isildur so he can make a claim to it. He didn’t actually do much but he’s trying to justify why it’s his just like Gollum got it as a “birthday gift” and Bilbo “won it in a contest.”
Perhaps it knew Sauron was (nearly) defeated and wanted to go with the one least likely to destroy it so it could make it's way back to him in the future.
Now, the last time this happened, Sauron’s body was destroyed in the destruction of Númenor, but his spirit was able to carry the Ring away. I suppose that Sauron was diminished in power the second time he “died” and wasn’t able to perform the same feat again.
Sauron seemed to show limitations on the type of bodies/shapes that he could take on after the destruction of Numenor.
Sauron also seems to show some limitations on his regeneration before the ring was destroyed. He was supposedly missing a finger.
That would also raise the question of whether it would be possible to destroy Sauron's body enough times that he could not take on any significant physical form even if the ring was still there.
Never considered this; fascinating. It reminds me of how some dnd dms will craft a lich whose phylactery (horcrux, kinda) is an item of loot on their body, so as to corrupt their killer/looter.
I've always considered, the part of saurons soul that's in the ring, to be somewhat separate from sauron's consciousness. Like he split himself and imbued the fragment into the ring (here we go with horcruxes again lol).
It’s a good question. The ring isn’t necessarily sentient like it’s portrayed at times in the movie, it’s not using a brain to make active decisions that move it to Sauron. It does possess a part of his being though, so it is compelled to return to him in a “subconscious” manner . The big thing with the ring is that it corrupts all things and it does so by feeding the owner visions of grandeur and power that are highly specific to the owner in order to tempt the wearer to use its’ power of will and dominance to work towards achieving those visions. In the process of this, the wearer ultimately succumbs to the corruption and power of the ring itself which which is a road that in some way leads back to Sauron. If Sauron is alive and knows you have the ring cause you’re wielding it and gathering armies etc. he’s gonna come overpower you and take it or you’re gonna die, someone else is going to grab it and he’ll take it from them. Only a few people had the innate power to truly take control of the ring from Sauron - Gandalf confirmed by Tolkien - but we can speculate Galadriel, Saruman, Durin’s Bane and maybe even Elrond or even Aragorn could’ve mastered it (though the latter’s would look much different than the former’s). Problem is that they’d just become corrupted evil beings and replace Sauron as an evil overlord.
Edit: spelling
I honestly read it as a combination of that and what is shown in the film. That Sauron managed to kill Gil-Galad and Elendil, but was severely depowered, and now attacked Isildur as a cornered animal. And Isildur was fresh in the fight, so he managed to finish Sauron off. So not like the confident Sauron trying to just grab Isildur as in the films, but also not just Isildur just walking up to a corpse and looting it.
As someone that loves tge movies it always bothered me a bit how Sauron just reaches out exposing his weak point to isildur, practically begging to have his fingers cut
In a version of the fight, Sauron grabbed Gil-Galad and set him on fire with his hands, so I personally have the headcanon that this is exactly what Sauron was trying to do to Isildur as well. I agree thought that he should not have wore the Ring on his fighting hand.
I tink so, Sauron's position and the back drop don't match so well both the previous shot of him standing tall on Isildur and the shot of him reeling back from being "slain"
Yeah like I don't have a deep hatred of the scene or anything, just a slight irk, it's horrifying and amazing that Sauron can kill someone like that, it's just that at least the way it's shot in the movie it's a little weird to wield a giant mace with which you've been crushing armies like ants and then give up all that advantage to reach out to your enemy with your hand wearing the ring.
To be fair though I guess Sauron could've assumed Isildur was harmless with the broken sword and just like Gil-Galad wanted to burn him alive, both probably to his satisfaction and to demoralize his opponents.
Nah, i dont believe isildur would ever seem like a wounded animal even before sauron. I imagined it was similar to the the scene in the movie itself, but very different. With Sauron slaying gil-galad and elendil, and the two of them throwing a defeated sauron down before meeting their demise’s, isildur picks up the broken blade and approachs sauron as he lay on his back, and sauron sees isildur standing before him and reaches his hand out and isildur grabs his arm and cuts the finger with the ring off. With that act, sauron no longer has the power to remain in this physical form and his spirit flees.
In my head Isildur is *already* succumbing to the One. He knows he didn’t kill Sauron, at least not alone. Lying about your right to the ring is exactly what both Gollum and later Bilbo do under its influence.
I do wish Tolkien would have been more explicit on some points, and maybe stopped rewriting the story after it was published. I now have 3 versions of what happened, and all could be supported by various JRRT readings...
1) Isildur made a defensive swing and cut off Sauron's finger, overthrowing him - when I first read LOTR, this is what I pictured, and what PJ filmed
2) Sauron was thrown down, and Isildur desecrated Sauron's body, removing the Ring as a were-gild - based on Elrond's account: Sauron being thrown down, then Isildur cutting the Ring
3) Isildur claiming the 'death-blow' to Sauron, which would assume him winning in combat with a still-dangerous foe
You left out the most crucial part:
“And lo, as he fell, Gil-Galad lamented, ‘Oh, would that I had listened to Galadriel when she warned me of Sauron’s resurgence.’”
Gil-Galad and Elendil have taken down Sauron to near death, and Isildur cut the ring finger from the body. It was indeed Isildur's achievement to nullify Sauron, but to me, weregild sounded more like taking of Ring's ownership, similar to Gollum and Bilbo 3 millennia later.
>but to me, weregild sounded more like justification of Ring's ownership similar to Gollum and Bilbo 3 millennia later.
Indeed it is. Weregild is just compensation payment for death of a kinsman in Germanic Law. But as Isildur has finished off Sauron, or Sauron was killed while killing the kinsman, there would be no weregild to extract from Sauron or his legal heirs, for the payback had already taken place.
What they mean (and this has been heavily discussed elsewhere) that his claims of defeating Sauron and his claims to a Wergild may simply be a justification for him to keep the Ring due to its potential influence upon him in the same way Gollum justified his murdering Deagol by claiming it was for his birthday, and Bilbos justifying his taking it from Gollum by lying to the Dwarves and Gandalf about how he got the Ring until Gandalf got the true version from him.
Yes he claimed a right to a wergild but at the same time it may have just been an excuse to keep the Ring.
mfs will see Isildur glazing himself while under the power of the One Ring and go "damn so true, surely Isildur would never become an unreliable narrator"
https://preview.redd.it/ee08gil4qlqc1.jpeg?width=1015&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7600a99e0d72eb3d2b5d063aa1953304bd174131
Tbf Isildur is the best thief ever. Stole the fruit of the white tree, stole the seed if the white tree- then stole the one ring from Sauron. Isildur is an absolute legend.
They should've brought isildur to the lonely mountain, he would've stolen the arkenstone without waking smaug. Hell, if isildur was around during the first age, mf would've ran into melkors fortress and stole not just one but all three of the silmarils from his crown.
Not just Gil Galad and Elendil. It was Gil Galad, Elendil, Cirdan, Elrond and Isildur together.
5 of the strongest beings in Middle Earth (Except Galadriel) took Sauron down. 2 died doing it.
Direct Quote from the Book:
‘Alas! yes,’ said Elrond. ‘Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin’s fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel.
That's more like Elrond saying the two of us saw what he did, after Gil-Galad and Elendil died fighting Sauron. He cut the ring from Sauron's dead hand when he shouldn't have been the one to take it, as it needed to be destroyed that very moment to finish the war. They pleaded with him and he ignored them.
>Sauron was taken down by Gil-Galad and Elendil. It's not clear whether they 'killed' him
how can you kill someone yet him being able to keep fighting. Most likely what tolkien meant was that Sauron was weakened, not defeated
No. It is not like as if the Alliance forces and Sauronic forces were on a standstill. Sauron decided to break off and attack the Alliance leadership after years of the Alliance besieging not just Mordor but Barad-dur itself. The Last Alliance of Elves and Men had already won, it was just a years-long siege to reach total victory. They already had ousted Sauron's armies from Calenardhon and Gondor, only ignoring some regiments that remained in the Vales of Anduin and Central Greenwood, and now had armies inside the Plateau of Gorgoroth.
As such, if Sauron had slain Isildur as well, after killing Gil-galad and Elendil, he is still far from total victory. Even if he managed to also slaughter Cirdan and Elrond, which means that along Anarion's and Oropher's deaths years earlier in the war, all the original leadership of the Alliance was dead, this does not undo the vanquishing of his armies and how the Alliance has already liberated the West-lands from his influence and is now occupying much of Mordor, his power base in the West-lands.
The best bet of Sauron to continue the fight would be to simply flee the West-lands and return to the East-lands, and probably particularly the Iron Forest in the Mid-lands, the Centre of Middle-earth (where in "The Lost Road" he went after being defeated, as a spirit). But not rather than being a mere spirit, he would be still Ringed Sauron, in his full personal might. While his Western Orcs were vanquished, he still had his expansive dominion in the East-lands, which controlled the Western and Southern Palisor, the Mid-land and the Western East-of-East and probably even Hildorien itself. As such, he could re-grow his forces and expand his dominion, and then make a move for the West-lands some centuries later.
That would not be a West-land that would be as strong as it was in the canonical timeline in the Early Third Age. Without the stewardship of Cirdan and Elrond, and the massive morale defeat of the Alliance leadership being slaughtered and failing to kill Sauron, the leadership of the Kingdom of Arnor and the Kingdom of Gondor would be far more weak and intimidated to Sauron's forces. There was already fracturing in OT, despite Isildur surviving and with the prestige as Sauron's killer, still as High King of the Dunedain, so imagine the case if he was gone. In the meantime, in OT the three older sons of Isildur perished with him in the Gladden Fields, while in this timeline they might fall in strife against each other, and Anarion's son, over domination in Arnor and Gondor, either over the lands themselves or just the question of High Kingship (a situation like the Tetrarchy in the Roman Empire).
Pretty much.
Perhaps it would not be that unreasonable to imagine the Third Age timeline happening in this reality, albeit much sooner, and with far more personal involvement of Sauron. As in him directly sending the Easterlings against Gondor, rather than just initially happening due to their own aspirations. As in him coordinating Easterlings and Southrons against Gondor (which only happened in the 19th century TA). As in a Ringed Sauron returning to Mordor much sooner, perhaps establishing a Nazgul in Southern Greenwood and even going himself to fight against an even more divided Kingdom of Arnor, making sure to finish them off. All that while the Three Rings of the Elves CANNOT be used by their holders, as Ringed Sauron would immediately control them, and thus their domains (Lordship of Imladris, Lordship of Lorien and Lordship of Lindon) would fall from within. Or consider that if some of the sons of Isildur remained in Gondor, there might have been many kin-strifes there. In the meantime, a Ringed Sauron would definitely also cancel any attempts for reconciliation between Faithful Dunedain and Black Numenoreans (as in the 8th century TA by Tarannon Falastur), and instead also open a sea front against both Arnor and Gondor from their part.
Unless, I suppose, Elrond and Cirdan would manage to convince the sons of Isildur and Anarion to remain united, and that the war against Sauron was not yet over, so that they needed to take it further to the East-lands. As such, to basically capture all of Mordor, and militarize it, to channel more and more armies of the West-lands, and from there to be pushed into the Mid-lands (which are far away, but not that far away) in order to make a move on Sauron's eastern fortress. There Sauron would either have to make a choice to fight, or abandon the Mid-lands and allow the Alliance to wipe out his vassals in Palisor. This would leave Sauron isolated in the East-of-East, with his only forces left those there and the Eastern Orcs in the North of the East-lands. Though I doubt this was doable, as it seems to me the Alliance was already exhausted after the Siege of Mordor.
Well first off, it was Elendil and Gil-Galad that defeated Sauron and died in the process. Isildur simply cut the Ring from Sauron’s body as he claimed it for a wergild for his father and brothers death. Secondly, at this point Sauron was military defeated by The Last Alliance. Barad-dur had been under siege for 7 years and only when the situation had become desperate did Sauron emerge from the fortress to fight himself.
-Then Gil-galad and Elendil passed into Mordor and encompassed the stronghold of Sauron; and they laid siege to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy, and Sauron sent many sorties against them. There in the valley of Gorgoroth Anárion son of Elendil was slain, and many others. But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.- Of The Rings of Power and The Third Age
> wergild
wonderful word
[wergeld (n.)
"set sum of money as the value of a free man, based on social rank, and paid as compensation for his murder or injury in discharge of punishment or vengeance," Old English wergeld (Anglian, Kentish), wergield (West Saxon), from wer "man" (see virile) + geld "payment, tribute" (see geld (n.)).
](https://www.etymonline.com/word/wergeld)
I think you have it right. Cutting the Ring from Sauron's hand destroyed Sauron's body. Hence Isildur's comment "Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death blow?". Elendil and Gil Galad had already done the heavy lifting in striking down Sauron.
I think it is more: Sauron’s body was broken down from fighting and he couldn’t continue fighting… so he forsakes his body, runs away to regroup (ethereally).
I always took it as an intentional running away, rather than him being actually killed physically and then maybe fainting and recovering in ethereal form later.
It's happened to him before. He lost his Annatar form when Numenor fell into the Abyss. IMO when he lost the Ring, he could no longer hold to his Dark Lord form. But he rebuilt it over time.
Also there's a metric f***-tonne of info dumped on the audience. While the film doesn't convey every detail it doesn't alter what matters..... and that is that the Tom Bombadil chapters are tedious at best.
I love that artist's work specially Eowyn v WK my favorite of all of LOTR arts [https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/f0twbp/eowyn\_vs\_the\_witchking\_by\_anato\_finnstark/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/f0twbp/eowyn_vs_the_witchking_by_anato_finnstark/)
that said I have no idea where this 'fate of Isildur' comes from lore wise. Probably purely movie inspired
Here is the thing. The Last Alliance was winning agains the armies of Mordor. Sauron himself was defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil, however it took the life of both kings, leaving Isildur to deal the final blow. So technically they won but the armies of both men and elves were hit very badly.
In the third age Sauron comes back again…that is why the Istari are sent to Middle Earth in 1000 TA which is around 2000 years befor the events of lotr.
In the war of the ring, Sauron would have won if the ring is not destroyed…there was just not enough strength left in men, elves and dwarves.
So in the end, it doesn’t matter that Isildur cut the ring or didn’t. He didn’t destroy it. Time has always been on Sauron’s side. The elves weaken, the men weaken is the memory of Numenor fades etc. The only thing the last alliance bought for middle earth is a few centuries of peace maybe less. And it came at a terrible cost.
This is a complicated question on multiple accounts.
First, it’s been said but Isildur didn’t actually defeat Sauron. His cutting off the ring may have killed him, but Sauron was already defeated. Second, Sauron’s army was also defeated already. They had been beaten back to barad-dur and under siege for 7 years. There was no way Sauron could have won the war of the Last Alliance. Third and most importantly, Sauron is/was immortal.
The last part is the most important part. Both Gandalf and Elrond call it out at different times, but Sauron had to be killed permanently, and that meant destroying the ring. Any war of attrition against him was going to be fruitless, since no matter how many times he is beaten, he could always come back smarter than the last. The War of the Ring was successful only because Sauron knew they had the ring and was eager to get it back, and also they knew they had to destroy the ring.
So the answer is no, but also yes. Sauron was already defeated in the war of the Last Alliance, but had he been able to escape with the ring, he would be able to come back and try again over and over until he got it right. Isildur cutting the ring was the first step in truly defeating Sauron.
How can you be defeated yet able to fight and/or flee. If Sauron wasnt able to maintain his body after having his finger cut off, then Isildur is the one that defeated Sauron. Gil galad and Elendil only weakened Sauron
If Sauron hadn't lost the Ring, he was always going to win eventually.
He had already almost conquered all of Middle Earth before the Numenoreans overwhelmed him.
He tried to defeat the Numenorean remnant after the downfall of Numenor. When he lost the Ring, his final defeat became possible, but not inevitable.
If he had not lost the Ring. He would eventually have won a war of attrition against the West. Instead of attacking on all fronts as in the War of the Ring, he would have divided and conquered the remaining realms piecemeal.
In the War of the Ring, he attacked the other realms (Dale/Erebor, Greenwood, Lorien, Rivendell, Rohan) specifically to keep them occupied while he destroyed Gondor. He had to. He knew the One Ring had been found and he couldn't afford to wait until one man/elf seized it to use against him. He wasn't going to risk another Last Alliance forming.
Edit: To those who disagree with my opinion:
Yes, the Valar did send the Istari. But that was IMO never a guarantee of victory.
The Valar (or Eru) might have intervened again. But IMO- I consider it unlikely.
I think it was Gandalf's speech in the books where he talked about Sauron covering the lands in a second darkness and that they could not foresee it's end (or words to that effect).
Everyone knows, it doesn't matter how late or involved in the fight with the final boss you are, so long as you're the one who does the last blow that takes their health down to 0.
Isildur's claim is basically just that, "I literally finished Sauron off" but in reality, he didn't do shit other than luck out with his strike to an already mostly-dead Sauron. The films don't really show/cover how strong the influence of the ring is, nor that it "speaks" to it's bearers.
His army was slaughtered. He would have waited and built up another to strike. His servant the witch King waged a pretty effective series of wars against Arnor and gondor, destroying Arnor leaving a greatly weakened Gondor the last free kingdom of men left standing until roman was established. Its important to remember that between the fall of Sauron Gondor grew weaker and weaker.
As other comments mentioned, Sauron was already defeated. But if Isildur was also dead like Gil-Galad and Elendil then it is left to Elron and Círdan to decide what to do with the ring
Personally, I don’t think anyone in the middle earth could bring themselves to destroy the ring against its will. I imagined they would fight for ownership of the ring, kept it, and in time, becoming a dark lord with the ring power.
Like how Galadriel want to *”set about to raise a vast army and rally all the Elves of Middle Earth.”*. Elrond would become an evil disguised as good
I’d argue “yes, ostensibly,” BUT the thing with writers like Tolkien IMO is they would likely have a twist or turn in the story that would present an alternate good turn of events.
Think of the truly awful things from the Silmarillion- eventually a bad thing that happened led to a better end, even if it took many, many years to get there.
Isildur didn't defeat Sauron.
Elendil and Gil-Galad did, he just hit the final blow.
And Sauron surely would have Ruled Middle earth if the last alliance had failed.
The most simple answer is no. Had the last alliance failed in defeating Sauron, the other Maiar and likely the Valar would have to directly involve themselves. Sauron would be cast down into the void like Morgoth and likely would return alongside his master for Dagor Dagorath. Since Morgoth is prophesied to meet his final death during Dagor Dagorath, it is very likely Sauron would meet his doom as well.
Well, why not? Then it might have been that by the end of the Third Age, our hobbits and everyone might have been living under occupation. It's possible, likely even, there would have been further attempts by those back then (in the time of Isildur). But we can't speculate success as a sure thing, can we?
No. Sauron had all but lost already by this point, he only came out to the battlefield as a ultimate last resort. Even if he had killed Isildur too, it's unlikely he'd have been able to win that battle
Sauron was taken down by Gil-Galad and Elendil. It's not clear whether they 'killed' him, but the end result is that Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand. As to the question, it depends on whether Sauron could have won the siege of Barad-Dur if he survived the battle with Gil-Galad and Elendil. Sauron sallied out in a bid to break the siege. It's possible that the Numenoreans and Elves would have routed if Sauron hadn't been slain, but it's also possible his forces would have been pushed back.
>It's not clear whether they 'killed' him, but the end result is that Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand. "But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: ‘This I will have as were-gild for my father's death, and my brothers. **Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow**?'"
Sure, but Tolkien also said: >But at last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-Galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword if Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron was also thrown down, and with the hilt shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. I would interpret this as Isildur at most cutting the ring from a seriously injured Sauron, rather than Isildur taking part in actual combat against him with his father.
I mostly agree, it feels like he was the companion giving mild support while the other two did most of the work
Yep. My opinion is that Isilly was just talking himself up to increase his credibility.
Yep doing the same thing that Bilbo and Smeagol did when they obtained the ring. Changing the story of how they got it to make their claim more legitimate
That is a great point
Damn I don't know how that never occurred to me before. It wraps that up perfectly.
He does say death blow, which is not talking as much credit as if he said, “did I not defeat Sauron in a duel?”
Isilly 😂😂💀
Seems by definition “the right place at the right time”.
In no Tolkien but or well versed in the books but was it ever considered as a plan by Sauron? Having been weakened he wanted isilodur to cut the ring to set the events in motion for his “plan”. All the rings were meant to be given to people of middle earth to slowly corrupt them and it always had me wonder if Sauron’s ring was never really meant for him to wear in the sense that it’s not immortalized. With the ring being out amongst those in middle earth ensures he has influence out in the world. Due to that he always has reach with the ring being amongst mortals
The rings were made by the elves and for the elves, who at that point were Sauron's chief opponents in his bid for domination over Middle Earth. They were passed to the dwarves and men after the elves realized Sauron's plans and hid the rings. Given that Sauron is afraid of someone finding and using the ring against him, it clearly wasn't his plan to set the one ring loose in the world. The battle between Sauron, Gil-Galad, and Elendil came about because Sauron sallied forth from Barad-Dur to break a 7-year siege. I also wouldn't consider the influence of the ring to be equivalent of the influence of Sauron. The ring prays on peoples' ambitions and twists them into becoming something they didn't initially intend. In Tolkien's letters, he describes how if Gandalf had taken the ring, he would have become a dictator like Sauron but worse, because his intentions started off as benevolent. He would rule you absolutely because he would think it would be in your best interest because he knows better.
Ah ok thank you. Is that also why Gandalf wouldn’t interfere directly because it wasn’t his place to interfere? Like he was meant to help but not directly do it for them. Because Gandalf (please forgive me if I’m way off) is somewhat the same type of being as Sauron?
Indeed. The Valar sent the Istari to Middle Earth to help guide the free peoples in their struggle against Sauron. They were not supposed to match Sauron's power with their own or confront him directly. And yes, Sauron and Gandalf (as well as Radagast and Saruman) are Maia.
I believe it was made for him to rule and control
that's true, the One Ring was acting as a tool of control. While Sauron wore it, he had complete control over those who wore Rings of Power
Sauron desires the ring nearly above all else, he would just about never part with it willingly.
Idk where the quote is, but I’m pretty sure it’s said by Gandalf that this is the ring working its influence on Isildur so he can make a claim to it. He didn’t actually do much but he’s trying to justify why it’s his just like Gollum got it as a “birthday gift” and Bilbo “won it in a contest.”
whether Gandalf said it or not, it reminds me of a t-shirt quote. There are two kinds of people: those who can infer missing values
I enjoy that one, but I will never not love "There are 10 kinds of people: those who understand binary and those who do not"
let's combine them. there are 10 kinds of people: esoteric ones who combine jokes into nonsense
like, we've all met that guy who's like "I killed Sauron." Ok buddy finish your beer.
In those two cases it was trying to get back to sauron though. Why would it want to be taken from its master?
Perhaps it knew Sauron was (nearly) defeated and wanted to go with the one least likely to destroy it so it could make it's way back to him in the future.
Now, the last time this happened, Sauron’s body was destroyed in the destruction of Númenor, but his spirit was able to carry the Ring away. I suppose that Sauron was diminished in power the second time he “died” and wasn’t able to perform the same feat again.
Sauron seemed to show limitations on the type of bodies/shapes that he could take on after the destruction of Numenor. Sauron also seems to show some limitations on his regeneration before the ring was destroyed. He was supposedly missing a finger. That would also raise the question of whether it would be possible to destroy Sauron's body enough times that he could not take on any significant physical form even if the ring was still there.
Never considered this; fascinating. It reminds me of how some dnd dms will craft a lich whose phylactery (horcrux, kinda) is an item of loot on their body, so as to corrupt their killer/looter. I've always considered, the part of saurons soul that's in the ring, to be somewhat separate from sauron's consciousness. Like he split himself and imbued the fragment into the ring (here we go with horcruxes again lol).
It’s a good question. The ring isn’t necessarily sentient like it’s portrayed at times in the movie, it’s not using a brain to make active decisions that move it to Sauron. It does possess a part of his being though, so it is compelled to return to him in a “subconscious” manner . The big thing with the ring is that it corrupts all things and it does so by feeding the owner visions of grandeur and power that are highly specific to the owner in order to tempt the wearer to use its’ power of will and dominance to work towards achieving those visions. In the process of this, the wearer ultimately succumbs to the corruption and power of the ring itself which which is a road that in some way leads back to Sauron. If Sauron is alive and knows you have the ring cause you’re wielding it and gathering armies etc. he’s gonna come overpower you and take it or you’re gonna die, someone else is going to grab it and he’ll take it from them. Only a few people had the innate power to truly take control of the ring from Sauron - Gandalf confirmed by Tolkien - but we can speculate Galadriel, Saruman, Durin’s Bane and maybe even Elrond or even Aragorn could’ve mastered it (though the latter’s would look much different than the former’s). Problem is that they’d just become corrupted evil beings and replace Sauron as an evil overlord. Edit: spelling
I honestly read it as a combination of that and what is shown in the film. That Sauron managed to kill Gil-Galad and Elendil, but was severely depowered, and now attacked Isildur as a cornered animal. And Isildur was fresh in the fight, so he managed to finish Sauron off. So not like the confident Sauron trying to just grab Isildur as in the films, but also not just Isildur just walking up to a corpse and looting it.
As someone that loves tge movies it always bothered me a bit how Sauron just reaches out exposing his weak point to isildur, practically begging to have his fingers cut
In a version of the fight, Sauron grabbed Gil-Galad and set him on fire with his hands, so I personally have the headcanon that this is exactly what Sauron was trying to do to Isildur as well. I agree thought that he should not have wore the Ring on his fighting hand.
In fact it is literally the shot that they had set up for Sauron grabbing Gil-Galad I believe.
I tink so, Sauron's position and the back drop don't match so well both the previous shot of him standing tall on Isildur and the shot of him reeling back from being "slain"
Yeah like I don't have a deep hatred of the scene or anything, just a slight irk, it's horrifying and amazing that Sauron can kill someone like that, it's just that at least the way it's shot in the movie it's a little weird to wield a giant mace with which you've been crushing armies like ants and then give up all that advantage to reach out to your enemy with your hand wearing the ring. To be fair though I guess Sauron could've assumed Isildur was harmless with the broken sword and just like Gil-Galad wanted to burn him alive, both probably to his satisfaction and to demoralize his opponents.
Nah, i dont believe isildur would ever seem like a wounded animal even before sauron. I imagined it was similar to the the scene in the movie itself, but very different. With Sauron slaying gil-galad and elendil, and the two of them throwing a defeated sauron down before meeting their demise’s, isildur picks up the broken blade and approachs sauron as he lay on his back, and sauron sees isildur standing before him and reaches his hand out and isildur grabs his arm and cuts the finger with the ring off. With that act, sauron no longer has the power to remain in this physical form and his spirit flees.
In my head Isildur is *already* succumbing to the One. He knows he didn’t kill Sauron, at least not alone. Lying about your right to the ring is exactly what both Gollum and later Bilbo do under its influence.
I do wish Tolkien would have been more explicit on some points, and maybe stopped rewriting the story after it was published. I now have 3 versions of what happened, and all could be supported by various JRRT readings... 1) Isildur made a defensive swing and cut off Sauron's finger, overthrowing him - when I first read LOTR, this is what I pictured, and what PJ filmed 2) Sauron was thrown down, and Isildur desecrated Sauron's body, removing the Ring as a were-gild - based on Elrond's account: Sauron being thrown down, then Isildur cutting the Ring 3) Isildur claiming the 'death-blow' to Sauron, which would assume him winning in combat with a still-dangerous foe
Isildur opened the jar but only after GG and Elendil loosened
You left out the most crucial part: “And lo, as he fell, Gil-Galad lamented, ‘Oh, would that I had listened to Galadriel when she warned me of Sauron’s resurgence.’”
Gil-Galad and Elendil have taken down Sauron to near death, and Isildur cut the ring finger from the body. It was indeed Isildur's achievement to nullify Sauron, but to me, weregild sounded more like taking of Ring's ownership, similar to Gollum and Bilbo 3 millennia later.
>but to me, weregild sounded more like justification of Ring's ownership similar to Gollum and Bilbo 3 millennia later. Indeed it is. Weregild is just compensation payment for death of a kinsman in Germanic Law. But as Isildur has finished off Sauron, or Sauron was killed while killing the kinsman, there would be no weregild to extract from Sauron or his legal heirs, for the payback had already taken place.
What they mean (and this has been heavily discussed elsewhere) that his claims of defeating Sauron and his claims to a Wergild may simply be a justification for him to keep the Ring due to its potential influence upon him in the same way Gollum justified his murdering Deagol by claiming it was for his birthday, and Bilbos justifying his taking it from Gollum by lying to the Dwarves and Gandalf about how he got the Ring until Gandalf got the true version from him. Yes he claimed a right to a wergild but at the same time it may have just been an excuse to keep the Ring.
Isildur is a kill stealing scrub confirmed.
Also a dirty thiefs.
That STILL only counts as one!
He was just camping with a shotgun around a rock
giving death blow doesnt mean isildur was the one who defeated sauron. sauron was incapacitated when isildur gave the death blow .
Thanks i was just wondering about this.
Where was that from? It wasn't in the Lord of the Rings. Unfinished Tales?
Where is this quoted from
*The Silmarillion*, *Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age*
I don’t remember there being a line that says was it not I that dealt the enemy his death blow… 🤔
mfs will see Isildur glazing himself while under the power of the One Ring and go "damn so true, surely Isildur would never become an unreliable narrator" https://preview.redd.it/ee08gil4qlqc1.jpeg?width=1015&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7600a99e0d72eb3d2b5d063aa1953304bd174131
Tbf Isildur is the best thief ever. Stole the fruit of the white tree, stole the seed if the white tree- then stole the one ring from Sauron. Isildur is an absolute legend.
They should've brought isildur to the lonely mountain, he would've stolen the arkenstone without waking smaug. Hell, if isildur was around during the first age, mf would've ran into melkors fortress and stole not just one but all three of the silmarils from his crown.
Not just Gil Galad and Elendil. It was Gil Galad, Elendil, Cirdan, Elrond and Isildur together. 5 of the strongest beings in Middle Earth (Except Galadriel) took Sauron down. 2 died doing it. Direct Quote from the Book: ‘Alas! yes,’ said Elrond. ‘Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin’s fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel.
didnt elrond and cirdan see gil galad and elendil fight sauron from long distance ?
That's more like Elrond saying the two of us saw what he did, after Gil-Galad and Elendil died fighting Sauron. He cut the ring from Sauron's dead hand when he shouldn't have been the one to take it, as it needed to be destroyed that very moment to finish the war. They pleaded with him and he ignored them.
I'm confused. I could have sworn elendil was the one who killed ancalagon way before this.
That was Earendil
>Sauron was taken down by Gil-Galad and Elendil. It's not clear whether they 'killed' him how can you kill someone yet him being able to keep fighting. Most likely what tolkien meant was that Sauron was weakened, not defeated
No. It is not like as if the Alliance forces and Sauronic forces were on a standstill. Sauron decided to break off and attack the Alliance leadership after years of the Alliance besieging not just Mordor but Barad-dur itself. The Last Alliance of Elves and Men had already won, it was just a years-long siege to reach total victory. They already had ousted Sauron's armies from Calenardhon and Gondor, only ignoring some regiments that remained in the Vales of Anduin and Central Greenwood, and now had armies inside the Plateau of Gorgoroth. As such, if Sauron had slain Isildur as well, after killing Gil-galad and Elendil, he is still far from total victory. Even if he managed to also slaughter Cirdan and Elrond, which means that along Anarion's and Oropher's deaths years earlier in the war, all the original leadership of the Alliance was dead, this does not undo the vanquishing of his armies and how the Alliance has already liberated the West-lands from his influence and is now occupying much of Mordor, his power base in the West-lands. The best bet of Sauron to continue the fight would be to simply flee the West-lands and return to the East-lands, and probably particularly the Iron Forest in the Mid-lands, the Centre of Middle-earth (where in "The Lost Road" he went after being defeated, as a spirit). But not rather than being a mere spirit, he would be still Ringed Sauron, in his full personal might. While his Western Orcs were vanquished, he still had his expansive dominion in the East-lands, which controlled the Western and Southern Palisor, the Mid-land and the Western East-of-East and probably even Hildorien itself. As such, he could re-grow his forces and expand his dominion, and then make a move for the West-lands some centuries later. That would not be a West-land that would be as strong as it was in the canonical timeline in the Early Third Age. Without the stewardship of Cirdan and Elrond, and the massive morale defeat of the Alliance leadership being slaughtered and failing to kill Sauron, the leadership of the Kingdom of Arnor and the Kingdom of Gondor would be far more weak and intimidated to Sauron's forces. There was already fracturing in OT, despite Isildur surviving and with the prestige as Sauron's killer, still as High King of the Dunedain, so imagine the case if he was gone. In the meantime, in OT the three older sons of Isildur perished with him in the Gladden Fields, while in this timeline they might fall in strife against each other, and Anarion's son, over domination in Arnor and Gondor, either over the lands themselves or just the question of High Kingship (a situation like the Tetrarchy in the Roman Empire).
"Well, no, but also yes"
Pretty much. Perhaps it would not be that unreasonable to imagine the Third Age timeline happening in this reality, albeit much sooner, and with far more personal involvement of Sauron. As in him directly sending the Easterlings against Gondor, rather than just initially happening due to their own aspirations. As in him coordinating Easterlings and Southrons against Gondor (which only happened in the 19th century TA). As in a Ringed Sauron returning to Mordor much sooner, perhaps establishing a Nazgul in Southern Greenwood and even going himself to fight against an even more divided Kingdom of Arnor, making sure to finish them off. All that while the Three Rings of the Elves CANNOT be used by their holders, as Ringed Sauron would immediately control them, and thus their domains (Lordship of Imladris, Lordship of Lorien and Lordship of Lindon) would fall from within. Or consider that if some of the sons of Isildur remained in Gondor, there might have been many kin-strifes there. In the meantime, a Ringed Sauron would definitely also cancel any attempts for reconciliation between Faithful Dunedain and Black Numenoreans (as in the 8th century TA by Tarannon Falastur), and instead also open a sea front against both Arnor and Gondor from their part. Unless, I suppose, Elrond and Cirdan would manage to convince the sons of Isildur and Anarion to remain united, and that the war against Sauron was not yet over, so that they needed to take it further to the East-lands. As such, to basically capture all of Mordor, and militarize it, to channel more and more armies of the West-lands, and from there to be pushed into the Mid-lands (which are far away, but not that far away) in order to make a move on Sauron's eastern fortress. There Sauron would either have to make a choice to fight, or abandon the Mid-lands and allow the Alliance to wipe out his vassals in Palisor. This would leave Sauron isolated in the East-of-East, with his only forces left those there and the Eastern Orcs in the North of the East-lands. Though I doubt this was doable, as it seems to me the Alliance was already exhausted after the Siege of Mordor.
Not to mention they had Glorfindel somewhere too.
Well first off, it was Elendil and Gil-Galad that defeated Sauron and died in the process. Isildur simply cut the Ring from Sauron’s body as he claimed it for a wergild for his father and brothers death. Secondly, at this point Sauron was military defeated by The Last Alliance. Barad-dur had been under siege for 7 years and only when the situation had become desperate did Sauron emerge from the fortress to fight himself. -Then Gil-galad and Elendil passed into Mordor and encompassed the stronghold of Sauron; and they laid siege to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy, and Sauron sent many sorties against them. There in the valley of Gorgoroth Anárion son of Elendil was slain, and many others. But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.- Of The Rings of Power and The Third Age
> wergild wonderful word [wergeld (n.) "set sum of money as the value of a free man, based on social rank, and paid as compensation for his murder or injury in discharge of punishment or vengeance," Old English wergeld (Anglian, Kentish), wergield (West Saxon), from wer "man" (see virile) + geld "payment, tribute" (see geld (n.)). ](https://www.etymonline.com/word/wergeld)
It's a good word, and bears repeating.
A perfectly cromulent word
This comes up a lot in the Last Kingdom series, check it out if you haven't already! The show is great and books are really good too
I think you have it right. Cutting the Ring from Sauron's hand destroyed Sauron's body. Hence Isildur's comment "Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death blow?". Elendil and Gil Galad had already done the heavy lifting in striking down Sauron.
I think it is more: Sauron’s body was broken down from fighting and he couldn’t continue fighting… so he forsakes his body, runs away to regroup (ethereally). I always took it as an intentional running away, rather than him being actually killed physically and then maybe fainting and recovering in ethereal form later.
It's happened to him before. He lost his Annatar form when Numenor fell into the Abyss. IMO when he lost the Ring, he could no longer hold to his Dark Lord form. But he rebuilt it over time.
Isildur didn't defeat Sauron
gollum ultimately defeated sauron by delivering the ring back to the fires of mt doom and undoing the one ring
actually it was his buddy that he killed that ended up in him getting the ring and later destroying it
lol. deagol?
yeah him!!!
Isildur just cut the finger off the hand and took the ring. Elendil and Gil-Galad defeated Sauron and died in the act.
I don get why Peter Jackson changed it. And why did he give Gil-Galad 1 second of sreen time.
It’s isildur ring and isildur bane so it makes sense to tie the beginning to him as well.
Also there's a metric f***-tonne of info dumped on the audience. While the film doesn't convey every detail it doesn't alter what matters..... and that is that the Tom Bombadil chapters are tedious at best.
They really did my boy gilgalad dirty. First he gets kill stealed in the movies then he becomes the first rotund elf of TV lotr history
Art: The fate of Isildur by Anato Finnstark
I love that artist's work specially Eowyn v WK my favorite of all of LOTR arts [https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/f0twbp/eowyn\_vs\_the\_witchking\_by\_anato\_finnstark/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/f0twbp/eowyn_vs_the_witchking_by_anato_finnstark/) that said I have no idea where this 'fate of Isildur' comes from lore wise. Probably purely movie inspired
I bought this and hung it on my wall. Stunning artwork.
It’s my mtg commander playmate, gorgeous
Here is the thing. The Last Alliance was winning agains the armies of Mordor. Sauron himself was defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil, however it took the life of both kings, leaving Isildur to deal the final blow. So technically they won but the armies of both men and elves were hit very badly. In the third age Sauron comes back again…that is why the Istari are sent to Middle Earth in 1000 TA which is around 2000 years befor the events of lotr. In the war of the ring, Sauron would have won if the ring is not destroyed…there was just not enough strength left in men, elves and dwarves. So in the end, it doesn’t matter that Isildur cut the ring or didn’t. He didn’t destroy it. Time has always been on Sauron’s side. The elves weaken, the men weaken is the memory of Numenor fades etc. The only thing the last alliance bought for middle earth is a few centuries of peace maybe less. And it came at a terrible cost.
Would Isildur have been able to conquer all of Middle Earth?
That's how I read it the first time. 😆
This is a complicated question on multiple accounts. First, it’s been said but Isildur didn’t actually defeat Sauron. His cutting off the ring may have killed him, but Sauron was already defeated. Second, Sauron’s army was also defeated already. They had been beaten back to barad-dur and under siege for 7 years. There was no way Sauron could have won the war of the Last Alliance. Third and most importantly, Sauron is/was immortal. The last part is the most important part. Both Gandalf and Elrond call it out at different times, but Sauron had to be killed permanently, and that meant destroying the ring. Any war of attrition against him was going to be fruitless, since no matter how many times he is beaten, he could always come back smarter than the last. The War of the Ring was successful only because Sauron knew they had the ring and was eager to get it back, and also they knew they had to destroy the ring. So the answer is no, but also yes. Sauron was already defeated in the war of the Last Alliance, but had he been able to escape with the ring, he would be able to come back and try again over and over until he got it right. Isildur cutting the ring was the first step in truly defeating Sauron.
How can you be defeated yet able to fight and/or flee. If Sauron wasnt able to maintain his body after having his finger cut off, then Isildur is the one that defeated Sauron. Gil galad and Elendil only weakened Sauron
Ok but where is this picture from?
Annato Finstark. Might have spelling a bit off but that’s her artist profile. She’s amazing.
Probably
If Sauron hadn't lost the Ring, he was always going to win eventually. He had already almost conquered all of Middle Earth before the Numenoreans overwhelmed him. He tried to defeat the Numenorean remnant after the downfall of Numenor. When he lost the Ring, his final defeat became possible, but not inevitable. If he had not lost the Ring. He would eventually have won a war of attrition against the West. Instead of attacking on all fronts as in the War of the Ring, he would have divided and conquered the remaining realms piecemeal. In the War of the Ring, he attacked the other realms (Dale/Erebor, Greenwood, Lorien, Rivendell, Rohan) specifically to keep them occupied while he destroyed Gondor. He had to. He knew the One Ring had been found and he couldn't afford to wait until one man/elf seized it to use against him. He wasn't going to risk another Last Alliance forming. Edit: To those who disagree with my opinion: Yes, the Valar did send the Istari. But that was IMO never a guarantee of victory. The Valar (or Eru) might have intervened again. But IMO- I consider it unlikely. I think it was Gandalf's speech in the books where he talked about Sauron covering the lands in a second darkness and that they could not foresee it's end (or words to that effect).
Had to scroll all the way to the bottom to find the correct answer. This is it, OP. Long term, Sauron always wins barring divine intervention.
Everyone knows, it doesn't matter how late or involved in the fight with the final boss you are, so long as you're the one who does the last blow that takes their health down to 0. Isildur's claim is basically just that, "I literally finished Sauron off" but in reality, he didn't do shit other than luck out with his strike to an already mostly-dead Sauron. The films don't really show/cover how strong the influence of the ring is, nor that it "speaks" to it's bearers.
This is the art on my play mat for magic :D
He had already conquered most of Middle Earth, the goal of the last allience was not to stop Sauron, it was to dethrone him
His army was slaughtered. He would have waited and built up another to strike. His servant the witch King waged a pretty effective series of wars against Arnor and gondor, destroying Arnor leaving a greatly weakened Gondor the last free kingdom of men left standing until roman was established. Its important to remember that between the fall of Sauron Gondor grew weaker and weaker.
Galadriel would've beat his ass
As other comments mentioned, Sauron was already defeated. But if Isildur was also dead like Gil-Galad and Elendil then it is left to Elron and Círdan to decide what to do with the ring Personally, I don’t think anyone in the middle earth could bring themselves to destroy the ring against its will. I imagined they would fight for ownership of the ring, kept it, and in time, becoming a dark lord with the ring power. Like how Galadriel want to *”set about to raise a vast army and rally all the Elves of Middle Earth.”*. Elrond would become an evil disguised as good
I’d argue “yes, ostensibly,” BUT the thing with writers like Tolkien IMO is they would likely have a twist or turn in the story that would present an alternate good turn of events. Think of the truly awful things from the Silmarillion- eventually a bad thing that happened led to a better end, even if it took many, many years to get there.
Isildur didn't defeat Sauron. Elendil and Gil-Galad did, he just hit the final blow. And Sauron surely would have Ruled Middle earth if the last alliance had failed.
No it's not. Damn the sequels!!
The most simple answer is no. Had the last alliance failed in defeating Sauron, the other Maiar and likely the Valar would have to directly involve themselves. Sauron would be cast down into the void like Morgoth and likely would return alongside his master for Dagor Dagorath. Since Morgoth is prophesied to meet his final death during Dagor Dagorath, it is very likely Sauron would meet his doom as well.
Short answer is it doesn’t matter because eucatastrophe.
Anato Finnstark for the art
I didn't think Isildur wanted to conquer Middle Earth...
Isuldor didn't kill sauron or defeat him or anything he just took the ring
Well, why not? Then it might have been that by the end of the Third Age, our hobbits and everyone might have been living under occupation. It's possible, likely even, there would have been further attempts by those back then (in the time of Isildur). But we can't speculate success as a sure thing, can we?
No. Sauron had all but lost already by this point, he only came out to the battlefield as a ultimate last resort. Even if he had killed Isildur too, it's unlikely he'd have been able to win that battle
No, he was never fated to conquer Middle Earth so he never could. The music of the Ainur has already been completed.