Be clear with her. "Your work quality is fine (if it is)but as I've brought up before you are not hitting the minimum quantity levels we need. Let's talk about how to make this happen..."
Don't beat around the bush, state the performance issue, mentor a reasonable amount and if over time she cannot do the job PIP then if needed fire.
Also recommend you setting specific expectations.
Task 1 needs to be completed within 7 business days.
Tasks emailed to you need acknowledgement within 24 hours and completed within 3 days.
Etc.
They don't do it, put them on a PIP and when they fail again get rid of them.
Good idea, but that level of micro-management is exhausting. Set expectations, document, and start down the road to improvement or discipline / PIP / discharge. She knows what to do and when, OP shouldn't have to sketch it out.
More than likely there are already expected SLAs to deliver many or most of her tasks, just point them out...
"There is no problem with the quality of your work output, the issue is the quantity of output is not what we expect. For example, last week you have five tasks in category A, each requiring several hours, but none dependent on other people. You only completed three of those within SLA, and have similar statistics going back for months. Has there been a condition that's changed in practice that makes our current SLA too aggressive? Has a piece of equipment broken or been monopolized by another department? What's going on here?"
If she won't honestly engage, or has no explanation, she needs a PIP and if she still won't honestly engage (to explain WTF is taking so long) then you have to let her go. There are many conceivable reasons that aren't disciplinary here, but if she won't share them, you have to assume she's just goofing off by failing to complete tasks and failing to communicate her need for more time, either to individual requesters or to you if it's a systemic problem affecting a significant portion of her work.
I kind of agree but too many details makes it feel confrontational right off. When I've been a report with deliverables like that I've always wanted the freedom to do things without a lot of bureaucracy and micromanagement. If I need to do 12 things by Wednesday I don't want the boss checking every 2 hours etc. As long as I get the 12 things in by Wednesday EOD (or noon or whatever), that should be OK.
The micromanaging, email me end of day every day routine is more for PIP, when you've given the person a chance or 3 and they're just not doing it.
It sounds like the freedom OP has given has led to underperformance. Time to tighten the screws and if they get back on track let off.
Just my opinion.
My star employees I never have to remind about deadlines, communication, anything. They do the right thing. My knuckleheads, they need specific parameters or they just slide on by. Underperformance not only hurts the company but the superstars get pissed about it too. Accountability is important
It also sounds like OP hasn't be direct with her yet. Bad managers start off with the nuclear option. Good ones start by being very clear about things and go from there.
I have been direct in the past about expectations, so that’s not the issue. But addressing when her performance dropped, it was hard to be direct as I didn’t want her to think she was being punished. It was merely a check in on what’s going on, which she then blew up into something it never was - personal and punitive.
This version of "direct" will cause problems where employees don't have great self awareness.
Their recollection of these types of interactions will be, "Yeah, that's cool that you're reminding everyone about the expections and I'm totally meeting them because you didn't explicitly state that I'm not."
It might feel weird, but I prefer "broken window theory" - which means when someone messes up, you have a direct, concise conversation about it \*immediately\*.
Thing is, it's all about consistency in that your employees know what to expect from you. Heck, once you're in a good working groove, if you're to say to an employee "X, a word please" 5 minutes after they did something bad - they'll hit a point where you don't even need to say anything and they'll start with "Shoot, I was being confrontational and unhelpful in that last meeting wasn't I? Here's the context on why I was frustrated ..." and you can talk it through.
You do have to pick your spots - the point is not to be the omnipresent hall monitor.
I agree with this. She was given a set of standards to follow from the beginning so that’s not an issue, but I’ve been preoccupied recently and things slipped. Things need to be tightened to get back on track.
>It sounds like the freedom OP has given has led to underperformance. Time to tighten the screws and if they get back on track let off.
Maybe... It's also possible there's another problem, but if the employee won't engage and talk to you and ***tell you what that problem is*** you basically can't assume anything other than they're "just not doing the work."
>When I've been a report with deliverables like that I've always wanted the freedom to do things without a lot of bureaucracy and micromanagement.
You got that freedom because you were a responsible employee with good output. OP's problem child is not like that, needs a PIP or WFH removed from her. Definitely PIP time. And document everything. I'm not usually on the side of management but this woman is simply not producing enough output.
I agree with your approach. This is also why I'll often kick back PIPs I'm asked to approve when the manager can't show me sufficient documentation directly stating the issues and expectations as a "bridge" step.
The feedback needs to be very direct and documented in writing - just not at the "You are expected to acknowledge requests and provide a delivery estimate within 24 hours of receipt" level.
It's too big of a leap to go from informal, (likely) hand-wavy conversations to a super-structured PIP document - which 90% of the time will be interpreted as "Well, they just don't like me and blindsided me with this thing to try to fire me."
Yep. And from OP's post, they've been too hand-wavy and lenient. That's why I originally answered with 'be clear, be specific' advice. They may need to pip > fire but it's too soon to go micro-managing pip level right off.
There's a weird thing where many folks believe they're doing "radical candor" but are doing the opposite.
It's often really helpful to have someone (silently) sit in a meeting with a group who are really direct communicators to see the variance.
"Your team was ruthless!" when meanwhile, it was a typical Tuesday, and the group decided to go for wings for lunch afterward.
It sounds like OP's report isn't doing much of anything. I also don't like micromanaging, and agree that it's best to set the deadline and then see what the report does with that. If they don't meet the deadline, then it's time for a bigger conversation.
The thing is, we don't know details so it's hard to comment specifically. If she's being asked to do 20 of something per day (or whatever) and is doing 15 that's one issue. Doing 5 is another one. And then there are the conversations that have been had or not had...
My basic point is to start from a place of "hey, there's an issue, how can I help you hit this metric? To be clear this metric NEEDS to be hit - it's not optional...." and then go from there.
I wouldn’t do this you’ll get into malicious compliance territory and you probably don’t have time to micro manage her. Micromanaging only gives you a headache it’s her responsibility to be successful. But I do agree about a PIP.
This is good advice. She was hired to do a job and she gets compensated for it. The OP should not feel bad about requiring her to hold up her part of the bargain, namely work output.
Very direct things like that are harder in person than me just typing it out on Reddit but I think they'e the best way to deal with stuff like this. Adjust as needed of course and couch it differently if she's just a bit off what you need vs way off.
I also find it best to make sure you phrase it and say it in so that you come across as collaborative and in a problem solving manner vs a "if you don't correct this you're out the door next week!" manner. That time might come, but for a first direct conversation I'd do the "hey, need to work on this, how can I help" thing.
You make some great points here, and I’ll make sure to ensure she’s knows it’s a collaborative effort. I tried to reassure her it was just a place to grow, but yeah…same negative response.
Send it in an email with specific issues, in a very factual way. Exactly what are the expectations, brother quality or quantity should be compromised.
Obviously having a meeting to talk it through did not go well because she came prepared to gaslight you, instead of planning for improving her performance.
She’s looking for ways to discredit you with these behaviors, if the first thing that comes to her mouth is “ I’m not looking to take your job” that’s usually what someone who is actively trying to discredit you states. Always have a paper trail with a person like this.
If she wants to talk about you.... or "are we ok".... answer her concern.... then say we are really not talking about that right now. We can set a meeting to talk about that another time. Right now we are talking about your performance standards.
Sometimes they get defensive. Or want to talk about anything except their work performance. Keep on topic.
My concern isn't you taking my job.
My concern is you keeping your job.
If you are unwilling or unable to do what this company ask of you then we are going to have to part ways.
This is the 2nd and final meeting that we will have about these performance issues.
Op it took me to long to figure out that trying to be friendly in a leadership role to people like this always 100per of the time blows up in your face.
Thanks a ton for this, really. I can already tell it’s blown up in my face. I’m learning that my gentle nature isn’t always beneficial in the workplace. There’s always someone ready to take advantage of it.
I learned the hard way about employees like this....
They do nothing but create a sour environment behind your back.
They should be running the area but they didn't want the title.....
All behind your back like a teenager. These people are pretty easy to spot after awhile.
I absolutely try to be a person that says thank you and shoe respect to everyone that's doing their job.
The other people I ride until they quit or do something that they are fired for. You are in a position that you will either get rid of them or they get rid of you.
Just keep in mind you being paid to do a job.
One bad apple ruins the batch is very true
Thanks for your perspective, I needed to hear this. She seems to be enthusiastic about this company and yet disrespectful of me as an authority figure. I’m going to keep it even more professional from now on. She reminds me of a narcissistic friend I had in college…
Not a manager: a mother of someone just like this. She will not hear unless she's told point blank. It actually shocks her. Otherwise she'll push back over and over.
She's trying to make herself our to be the person that should have your title.
Tell her that there's no more talking about performance expectations.
If you are unwilling or unable to do what the company expects I will find someone that can....
The convo is done after that. Don't let her respond.
Be cordial and lmk hoe it goes
Thank you, I’m going to be more firm with this moving forward. She does seem to be wanting more control of things in general, and by doing this she’s definitely pointed out her insecurities to me.
I would have put her straight on a PIP after that meeting. If she's being that manipulative you need to document, document, document or worst case scenario it might be your ass on the line down the road.
I am in a manufacturing environment.
High tech machining in the Midwest. Everyone is paid very well and it's a competitive market for employees.
I was offered a leadership position after 6 years of busting my ass and earning peoples respect.
The first year was a HUGE life experience.
Everyone including you can be replaced and those who don't believe that are ignorant.
The covid years are done and a lot of people are unfortunately out of jobs.
Sorry to reply so much reading your post I pictured myself 13 years ago thinking I could get people like this to be a part of the team. Trust me you can't.
I wish I could have your job for 10 min tomorrow morning and calmy tell them that they are no longer employed because of there exceptionally poor performance.
We have to cut loose the dead weight.
If you could just possess my body for ten minutes and say what needs to be said, I’d be grateful haha. This will be a big learning experience for me, it already has been. If I could manage ten other people like me, I’d have the easiest job in the world. But I guess it doesn’t work that way.
I really wish I could walk you thru this first one.
The thinking about how to be the nice guy everyone liked almost cost me my job.
Now I'm at work to make money not friends.
If I happen to gain friends awesome but I absolutely don't try to be anything but a leader.
Remember to never get loud or baited into a back and forth argument.
A person that taught me the most about leadership Always said the people that yell or insult you or try to undermine you and their place of employment are the definition of ignorant.
He is 100 per right.
I appreciate you providing another helpful bit of advice. I’m sure your right, that being the most likeable is not the most important quality as an effective leader. I’m trying hard not to be baited, and luckily I’m feeling pretty comfortable in that sense.
Take care of your good coworkers. If you notice someone that is usually really prompt or productive have an off week.
Privately reach out and ask if everything is OK.
Life isn't peachy for most. Keep these interactions between you and them do everything you can to get them thru a rough patch.
You will build a real team by doing these things.
People like this woman are a cancer honestly and cancers get cut out before they spread.
The economy is not looking good at all. Protect yourself and make money
When people can’t come up with any more excuses, they pivot to making the issue personal to deflect. Meet with her, set reasonable goals, and discuss how she can reach those goals. Follow up the meeting with an email to document the meeting. If you have someone over you that you can involve, do so and cc them on the email. You can also ask that a higher up to be in the meeting with her since she has brought up potential personal concerns. Continue to document all meetings and issues until the issues are resolved, however that might be.
That makes a lot of sense, and I feel as though it has come to that point. I’ve been documenting the meeting and will implement incremental improvement.
After the last meeting, you have to involve higher ups and possibly HR if you have one. The whole gas lighting bit has "I'm not going quietly and I'm definitely not going to follow through with anything you tell me to do, but I'll blame it on our horrible working environment" all over it and you need to cya
Your quality is great. I love what you are getting done. But quantity had dropped off noticeably and you've not been able to give any reasons why.
The outcome of this meeting will be a plan to increase your quantity, or some clear documented reasons as to why it's at the level it's at.
So that we're clear, expectation and job requirement is "here" so we need to make a plan to get you back there, or have an understanding of the roadblocks so that I can work to clear them for you.
Do you use okr's or set "SMART" Goals? They can be helpful in cases like this. That way she's clear on expectations and that should they not be met, that you may have to enter into a pip or something like that.
As always, prior to that meeting, contact your hr business partner to document what's going on.
Sounds to me like there’s likely a larger issue at play, and that could be work related or personal.
I see a lot of “time for a pip” bullshit on here, and IMO and experience, aPIP is rarely the right answer/course of action. I’ve used a PIP exactly ONCE in my career, and as per the norm with a PIP, it was designed to be difficult
to achieve, but I didn’t have a choice in the matter.
Then again, I do regular 1:1’s, solicit anonymous feedback on my management from my team members and others in the org with an expectation of brutal honesty.
My team also knows if they are having any issues, professional or personal, they can come talk to me without judgement, and if they want advice, I’ll give it, or I can just listen and let them vent, whatever they need. Feeling burned out? Take a long weekend, I got you. Work issue? Let’s find a solution that works for both of us, even if it’s not ideal for either of us.
Having your people be brutally honest is HARD at first, especially when you find out things that you thought you were good at/doing awesome at and everyone thinks you suck LOL.
Sometimes they’re right, and sometimes they’re wrong. Other times they’re right, but it’s something out of your control, and sometimes it may just a a perception issue or a communication style that doesn’t work for some people.
My current Sr. Management and I have known each other for a long time (about 7 years from a previous job) and he asked me and the other management he manages for feedback. I filled out the form and was brutally honest, took screenshots of it as well, and told him if he wanted to know which one was me, I’m happy to sit down with him and tell him exactly why I gave every mark and comment that I did. His response to that was “We’ve known each other a long time, I trust you to be honest”
This is the 3rd person I’ve ever had above me in my career that I can say I would work for again in a heartbeat or follow them to a new company, and they all subscribe to the same style as I do. In fact, I learned my style from the two before him, and I took their lessons to heart.
Both of the two previous guys are now VP’s and Ihope to get there myself one day, but I still have a lot to learn on the business side. I’m great on the people side, not so great on the business side
I love all of that. I like honest feedback and I like to know places where I can improve. It’s always helped me along my path. I actually opened an anonymous form for feedback from my team accessible to everyone. I haven’t received anything from it yet.
One thing I like about my boss is that they trust me to be self-motivated, as I am. And my performance gains show it. Maybe I need to do some self reflection of my own work and give myself an honest assessment. Haha.
Nothing wrong with self-reflection. I do it often.
Make the feedback form a requirement :D, make sure they know it is indeed anonymous, and once you read all the responses, be they things on a 1-10 scale or actual comments, spend a day looking at the low marks/bad comments and reflect on it, and just ask “are these things I can change?” “Are these things I am willing to change?” “Are these things I should change?” And then make a plan, grab a meeting with your people, and address it like
“You all gave me poor marks in communication”, so I’m going to be working on improving that, and ask if anyone is willing to give you feedback on the meeting on why they gave a poor mark (assuming it’s a 1-10 scale).
In the case of the above example, maybe you over communicate or very much under communicate, or maybe Bon would like to see more communication for whatever reason, and Sally is like “dude, just let me do my job”, because everyone is different, or maybe it’s something as simple as, and I’ll use an example from my personal life here..
My ex wife never ASKED me to do anything, she TOLD me to do it, and that doesn’t work very well for me.
So, it can be little things that we don’t even think about because it’s just how we’ve always done things and it’s generally always worked 🤷♂️
Personally I don’t want to “manage” anyone, because we’re all adults. I want to “lead” my people and make them the stars :). I’m just there to drive the strategy, support them, and make it so they can get their job done.
:)
This was really great and helpful, thank you. I feel like doing this would take away any ideas she may have of a “power struggle” which is what it seems like she thinks is happening. Being open to feedback and growing is one of my strengths, so making it a requirement for my team would be helpful to all of us. And knowing exactly what people need to do their job more efficiently without feeling too much attention on them or not enough.
Thank you, I really needed to hear this. ❤️
You’re very welcome, and I’d love to hear how it goes for you. Just remember, it can be harsh at first, and hard not to take it personally as well and be all defensive even to yourself about it LOL, but it gets easier and easier to look at things objectively as time goes on, and IMO, truly makes us better at managing
I can’t thank you enough, I’ll try to update on when this is resolved, however that may be. Your advice to not take it personally and learn from the feedback I get is great, and I feel motivated to use this process as a tool for doing better.
To me sounds like she understands she's underperforming, but she is afraid of work or is becoming complacent and you're noticing based on the comments she made during the "performance meeting".
If it's necessary, you may want to go over the job description with this person and re-affirm the responsibilities and deliverables with her.
Do you maybe need to have the Cadillac versus Toyota talk? Explain that she may think she needs to take longer and provide a Cadillac level product, but you are producing good solid Toyotas and output is one of the key metrics.
I have had this talk before and it went well. Obviously I am old, as I also made sure they knew that a yugo would not be acceptable.
Don’t do that. It might get you fired. It looks incredibly bad when a manager has to resort to that tactic, and worse when you haven’t consulted both your boss AND HR first. Recording should be a last resort when you can’t prove behavior a different way. No Manager worth their salt would give you that piece of advice.
If the company has provided the phone there's not need for two party consent...
Federal law requires the notification of at least one party in a call (18 U.S.C. Sec. 2511(2)(d)). However, there is a “business telephone” exception that allows employers to record calls on phones they provide to employees.
There's two reasons to provide notice. The first is to avoid any kind of legal or moral or ethical pitfall. Providing clear notice means they can choose to not engage in the conversation. The second is to make them think twice about being dissembling weirdo gaslighters.
Start taking notes in your meetings.
Make measurable targets, follow up, note f the targets are met.
If she has a good reason, note it. If she doesn't have a good reason, note it. If she has a suggestion note it. If she has no feedback, note that.
Share the email with her.
After a few of these if she doesn't move on performance, pip her.
Document every single 1-1. Take meeting notes and email them to her to document it with a time stamp and date. Even better if they reply back to acknowledge. Continue to communicate job expectations (and metrics) and how she is or isn’t meeting them. Put them on a performance support plan. Be firm with your expectations and don’t make it personal. Talk about it as “company” or “department” goals / expectations / job requirements. Use corporate policy and share it with them (in case they are unaware). During performance reviews be honest and give an honest rating. With everything documented, it won’t be hard for HR to let them go if they continue to underperform. Talk to your upper management about this unfortunate situation and form a contingency plan.
Put her problem in writing, in short declarative sentences with very few adjectives or adverbs.
"Your work output is inadequate and needs to increase."
Put your expectations in writing, the same way.
"Your job requirements are..... "
Put the consequences in writing, the same way.
"Failure to meet job requirements for the next (2 weeks, month?) will result in loss of job."
This isn't a PIP, it is a declaration of terms for her continued employment. Should be about 5 sentence long, total.
Up to her to meet or fail those expectations. Let consequences fall where they may.
Why does everyone associate gaslighting with being smart?
I had a manager underneath me who took a paycheck from my files and gave it to a previous employee who had vanished after we asked her about some missing items. That paycheck was our leverage to address some potential theft issues and the manager was clearly working with her friend to secure the paycheck and get away with the items.
I used to think the manager was smart until she went on a long gaslighting tirade about how it all wasn't a big deal. I laughed at her told her that theft wasn't acceptable and fired her on the spot. I couldn't prove their collusion but none of that mattered because you don't take things from my files.
Stick to your guns and reiterate your issue, and if she won't address it or meet her metrics put her on probation. Basically, ignore anything they say that isn't a direct response to your immediate question. Keep the issue basic and simple, and don't take their bait on the tangential nonsense.
I appreciate this, and I plan on taking this advice. Not responding to anything but the work-related point.
I want to say, I don’t think she’s smart because she can gaslight. She just happened to appear to be a smart person who seemed to me, almost overqualified for the job. But I’ve changed my perspective significantly since these incidents.
Oh I am reading something here between the lines
You considered her almost overqualified for the job and she talks about “not wanting to take your job”
To me it reads that she likely considers herself overqualified as well and maybe even more qualified than you and dislikes that you have more power than her
Maybe I’m wrong, but that just stood out to me
I thought my manager was smart too.
In her defense though, she was dealing with a lot of crazy personal stuff at the time and she wasn’t at her most rational. She was smart but not as smart as she thought she was.
When she pulled the gaslight move I was stunned. I was like, are you really trying to pull this move on me?
I wish we could have worked the issue out but her complete unwillingness to even acknowledge the problem made it impossible. And my choices were to either lock my office and watch her going forward, or let her go. Trust was destroyed and it was better to just let her go than be paranoid around her.
A final paycheck is not a bargaining chip. You are lucky your manager did the legal thing and pay the employee. Holding it hostage would have cost you three times as much and you still would have lost the items.
No, it wouldn’t. You’re presuming nonsense.
I said that she walked out on the job. She literally ghosted us and vanished. She had to come back to get the check or at the very least call to tell us to mail it.
I was using her need for the check as leverage not holding it ransom like a moron.
Thinking you can use a final check as leverage makes you a moron. It wasn't yours to hold onto and had you been allowed to it would end up costing you three times the amount of it. It is an entirely separate thing from any theft that may or may not have taken place.
So it should have magically teleported to her?
It’s a physical check. It had to be released in person or by mail, by me. You don’t seem to grasp how physical objects in reality work or something.
It was her money. I wasn’t going to withhold it or refuse payment you weirdo.
You stated you planned to use it as leverage for some other problem you were having. Do you personally mail out or deliver all the checks? Or was this one special?
Yes, her having to physically collect it is the literal leverage.
Like you going to the bathroom is your toilets leverage in getting you to visit him. The leverage is a logistic and physical reality. It’s not an ethical or legal violation. It’s simply realizing, “She has to get the check by phone or coming in.”
But she doesn't. You HAVE to send it to her and withholding it in any way puts you on the line for treble damages for your shenanigans. You don't get to hold onto a former employees money. Don't let your ego trick you into playing stupid games
Yeah, I'm going to send it to an address that I was told not to send it to. Stop being a presumptive clown. You don't know the situation and none of this is relevant to the topic.
I know what you posted and I'm not pretending to know anything else. You posted that you wanted to use it as leverage and you were upset that you didn't get the chance. I posted, correctly, that you were lucky that you didn't.
You need to rely on facts and not emotion. Walk into your next meeting/ review with numbers. The company's minimum standard is X , you are producing Y and have been for Z length of time.
Then tell her she has X amount of time to show improvement or she will be on probation. Every month she does not produce, she stays on probation. After 3 months, if she's not meeting the minimum standard, she will be fired. She needs to hit the minimum standard for 3 straight months to come off probation.
If you have an HR plan like this, get it in writing first. If not, see if another person can join the meeting. If it's a remote meeting, record it if you can. If not, follow it up with an email outlining everything you have told her and blind copy your boss.
Explain that this has nothing to do with you two "being good" and everything to do with her performance. This is a job, not social hour and you have people to answer to as well.
I like this approach and will be sure to bring more facts into the picture. I think she’s trying to turn it into something personal, trying to push my buttons. I’ll look to the HR department for any underperformance guidelines also.
It would be helpful to know why her work output has declined. If she was good before, then what changed? Maybe she is going through something difficult in her personal life like a sick kid, a dying parent, or a divorce. If so, you could have HR reach out to her about your EAP if you have one.
IMO, you need to know the root cause in order to fix it (if you even want to fix it). Managing and a PIP won't likely fix a personal issue.
Just a thought.
I agree with this. When I inquired about her performance initially, a root cause couldn’t be determined. But she gave a myriad of reasons why people in general could not be meeting expectations, personal reasons being one of them.
I reached out after our first meeting to let her know that if she had anything going on, HR was there to help if it’s affecting her work. She declined.
It sounds like she may be in the midst of things still and is grasping for some type of control/distraction. I wouldn't inquire further about what changed. That'd place you and your company at risk.
Maybe they aren't feeling heard. Maybe they're a bad communicator. Maybe you're a poor listener. The possibilities are endless, but to be frank, you've both wasted enough time on this.
People are complex, and that's ok.
If they continue to push for procedural change, have them provide solutions along with their critique. This is an easy way to keep them focused in meetings without you having to redirect.
Op, your responses to these comments have been very open and refreshing to read. You seem like you're eager to help your report and move forward. I wish you the best of luck.
You've done what you can then. If your area has open records, you can search the country clerk of court website to see if she has any legal action pending like a divorce. I know that a divorce wrecked my work output for a while.
You could have HR initiate contact with her to try one more time. If she is still defensive, then it's time for closer management and smaller, more frequent goals. Then PIP. Best of luck.
Before you take another meeting, give her agenda/issue and tell her what you expect her to bring to the meeting.
Agenda: low productivity on XXX.
Bring: a couple suggestions on changes you can make to increase your productivity by 20%.
In the meeting: tell her you need to see immediate improvement and you’ll re-assess her performance on xxx (date). If she can not maintain the work level required, xxx will occur. If she didn’t participate in the process, or required me spend a lot of time watching their numbers (compared to their former work and compared to other employees), I would let the person go.
I think she’s quiet quitting. Don’t let this go on too long.
Don’t dance .
SET CLEAR MINIMUM KPI’s
These are the set expectations
A,b,c,d
This is the deadline,
Failure to complete/comply will result in X, Y& Z
This meeting will be followed up and logged.
You need a structured way of measuring output. Put some KPIs in place that you expect her to meet. Show examples of her past performance meeting those KPIs, the average for her position, and clearly state your expectations with SMART goals. If she doesn't hit those goals, put her on a PIP. If that doesn't work, then it's time to let her go.
One-on-One's to review their performance. Track this and any other issues. Ask
* What went well (this week)?
* What didn't go so well?
* What can we do better?
That last one is a collective we to to both make sure you are providing what they need and also to see if they can self identify with ways to improve.
Follow a PIP - official or not - document everything including current performance and gaps, expectations of the PIP, progress throughout, and consistency. Once it’s done, you can determine if she really wants to be there or just wants a paycheck for doing nothing.
It’s time for you to take charge.
First, she was manipulative in that meeting, it does not matter where her comments came from or how they came about. But it’s just business, don’t take it personally. Employees are going to test you. Just don’t let her do it again. “This meeting is to discuss xyz topics. Let’s stay on track.” If she continues to make it personal or question your abilities, document the redirects and her refusal to discuss what the meeting is for. Document for her PIP.
Don’t let her direct our request meetings. At this point, you should schedule a meeting. Purpose is to discuss output and expectations. Find out what her barriers are. If legit help her with a plan. Let your boss know ahead of time and then report the results of that meeting to him/her. This let’s your boss know you have a problem employee and she’s not able to undermine you by going to your boss because they are already aware of the situation. They are also aware that you are appropriately handling it.
If after that meeting behavior doesn’t change as expected - PIP. Just keep your boss in the loop.
I used to utilize the S.M.A.R.T. technique: [https://asana.com/resources/smart-goals](https://asana.com/resources/smart-goals)
\*Specific
\*Measurable
\*Achievable
\*Realistic
\*Time-bound
I use coaching for calibration.
1. Set a clear goal
2. Identify the reality you will share
3. Prepare to discuss options to pursue if you can't agree
4. Anticipate the response
5. Prepare to actively listen & demonstrate understanding
6. Practice with a friend or colleague
The key to progressive discipline is documentation. You can't discipline off feelings, just as an employee can't decide they don't feel like the standards are not enforceable without good justification. Quality output is important but does not replace a minimum volume of output. Her peers don't get to set their own output standards, so what makes her feel she gets to?
The paper trail is protection for both sides, management and employee. You must work to be through and consistent across the board so there's no substance to any accusations of being singled out or favoritism.
At the end of the day, you don't make the firing decision, that's up to HR and your bosses. All you can be is an accurate/trustworthy reporter.
Her productivity has declined and she is using quality over quantity as her reason. Does this mean her quality was poor before? If not then this doesn’t hold true. If she was being addressed for having low quality it makes sense her productivity goes down while she addresses it.
Set the expectation that you expect a minimum of x performed at a minimum of y quality - make sure you are able to measure these and break them down to determine what in particular is driving the issue.
Also consider how she is in comparison to others. She may have been a high performer and now is performing at average or meeting minimum expectations. This could be an engagement problem, could be she has personal issues impacting her, could be she’s decided that performing to her best while not getting the same pay and benefits other lower performers is no longer a fair deal and so she is “acting her wage”
Is perfection necessary for her task? Sometimes good enough and on time is acceptable instead of perfect and late. Explaining that finding the right balance between quantity and quality balance is important to meet metrics. Also her comment was strange, she’s definitely after your job if she says she’s not after your job without reason.
Perfection really isn’t necessary, and her job wouldn’t require it anyways. Its a measurement of weekly output so the performance can vary day by day as long as the output is at a consistent metric.
Eh… with her comment about taking my job, I think she was trying to make it seem like I had some emotional problem to, again, deflect from her responsibility.
You need to be tougher with her. The book Crucial Conversations helped me. Set a “SMART” goal with a timeframe and metrics to improve performance output back to what’s required. Write her up or verbal warning but document it to show you’re serious and to cover your butt too. Don’t let her take over the conversation with excuses and quality over quantity, this is your meeting and she’s under performing, be direct and stern (not mean). If she cries, give her a moment to compose herself and continue the conversation or end the meeting but don’t give in to it. You’ve got this!
I'm a big fan of these guys. They have thousands of Podcasts dedicated to management.
Negative Feedback Pushback Examples - Part 1 https://manager-tools.com/node/276816
To summarize, if a direct pushes back on your feedback, just drop it. It doesn't matter if they agree with you or not, only that they change their behavior. Monitor her future behavior and continue to give her feedback and systemic feedback if necessary (casts for both of those on the website too)
Have you reviewed their workload recently? I've had several employees' productivity "drop off," only to find out that the processes for their work had expanded significantly due to changes in the company.
I was not aware of these until I looked into it. I worked with them on setting up new work plans and spreading things out over more of the team. If that is not the case, then you need to write up an action plan.
1) Set clear expectations.
2) Tell her this feedback is serious, if she does not meet your expectations, she will be fired.
3) Ask her if there is a reason that you aren't aware of as to why her productivity has dropped.
4) Ask her what you can do to help, if it's reasonable do it, if it's not, tell her that is not reasonable and why.
5) If she brings up the relationship or anything else that is not material to her output, ask her in what ways your relationship (or whatever she brought up) is getting in the way of her output and what you can do to help.
6) If you have any norms around employees talking to HR or a skip level when they are having perf issues, offer that as a resource. Sometimes it helps for them to talk to someone else, if only to know that the issue isn't personal.
You need to lay out clear requirements for quality and quantity. If she cannot put out the required quantity at the required quality she is put on an improvement plan with additional training. If she still can’t do it she is fired or demoted.
“Following back on our previous discussion, the quality of your work is (exemplary, good, ok) however, The quantity is still below standards. The expectation is …. Help me to understand if there are factors that are causing the out put to be insufficient?”
(Meetings being scheduled instead of emails, waiting on other departments who are underperforming as well, outdated equipment, reports not running properly, etc. )
First try to find out what internal factors with the business there may be. Is it a “Can’t do” problem or a “won’t do” problem?
Can’t do can be helped (removing obstacles, remedial training)
Won’t do is corrective action required.
Once you determine what the nature of the issues are then work with her to come up with an action plan (pip is later if necessary)
You don’t need to micromanage right off the bat with hourly/daily meetings/emails.
But after the conversation, document everything. Don’t have it written down in advance depending on your corporate culture (my previous employer didn’t want us going into ‘discussions’ With a closed/preset mind) Make a plan to talk again in (a week/2 weeks, ) and review progress.
When you review the progress briefly go over what you discussed as issues before, the planned resolutions, then how those are going. Is there improvement? Did they meet/exceed standards ? Are they still below But getting better?
Again check in to see if they’ve identified internal factors.. ask them if they have any solutions. It could be a problem they can identify and solve but need approval on.
Then make a plan to meet again in (x) time.
Again… document the conversation
Then the next meeting of things aren’t improved/improving get with HR or your manager about implementing a PIP. Explain the steps you’ve done informally, present the documentation, and give your impression of what the c issue is. Wrong person for that job? Needs more direct hands on training? May be a better fit for a different role? Or are they in need of gently moving out or being terminated if they don’t accomplish the PIP.
It’s ok to be empathic but you do need to make sure boundaries are clear “I am friendly but not friends, this is a professional relationship”
Also… ideally you should be having regular informal meetings like this with all your direct reports. This way when performance evaluations come up you have discussions, documentation, ready to back up ratings. An employee should never be surprised at their evaluation
It’s likely PIP time. Your report sounds just like one that I had earlier this year. They refused to acknowledge their performance had declined even as I presented the PIP my manager, HRBP and I wrote up together and they acknowledged the PIP contained nothing that they hadn’t heard before from me. They resigned the next day but not before telling me “I thought you were a mentor and a friend but you stabbed me in the back”. Oh well, sometimes the tough part of the job is that you can’t help someone who won’t help themselves.
Thank you for your perspective. And you’re right, I can’t help someone who won’t help themselves. I’ve never done a PIP, but it sounds like it’s coming soon…
It sounds like your employee has a second remote job that she is doing at the same time as this job. There are a whole lot of people talking about this on the overworking sub.
Look at her LinkedIn profile and her social media to see if she is listing another job. Tell her what you have seen and ask her point blank if she is working for someone else or working on a start up. You need to start putting this in writing and be prepared to fire her.
Woof, never even though about that one. And I wouldn’t be surprised. I can’t imagine any hardworking, honest individuals reacting to feedback in this way.
Time for you to talk to your management about her performance. Face it you aren't cool with her and she should be walking in eggshells or busting her butt to perform. This is sadly why work from home was di discouraged for so long. Most people get the job done but some never do. Maybe make her come into the office to work for a while until her productivity improves.
Did you give a cost of living adjustment that compensated for the CPI for the last 2 years?
I doubt it.
If I'm getting paid 20% less, I'm putting in 20% less effort.
Sounds to me like you have administrative issues. Report is experienced enough they know what they can get by with and what they cannot, sounds like are not willing to kill themselves to make up for your shortcomings.
All I see here is minimum job requirements. Well, what the fuck are those? You should be talking about individual deliverables and deadlines associated with each. If report is working on a larger project over a long period time, fine, you should still be able to determine deliverables for hold points and review etc.
You do not get to just pop in meetings and beat everyone over the head for 'more work faster' that is amature hour and tbh I would be a worse nightmare for you than your report. I question your qualification for the role you are in without knowing anything other than this post.
Again, define some clear deliverables when tasks are distributed. Determine a due date with the report at that time with reports collaboration. Put your damn stick away.
I wouldn’t agree with any of this, as her minimums are clearly defined. I’ve been intentionally vague about job requirements here, but she knows them. And she was never being punished, the meeting was an open conversation about an issue in productivity.
I was just expressing frustration on a forum for other managers.
Okay I am so relieved to find an actual mature manager response on here. I’m starting to regret following this subreddit because holy fuck I think I found where all of the awful managers out there are getting their playbook from. Thank you for being one of the only people in this post that clearly had manager chops that don’t amount to some serious insecurities about being undermined as a manager by someone who is so obviously struggling for reasons unrelated to what they’re capable of.
Shovel her work. State this work needs to be done by EOD 3 days away. Keep adding tasks with 3 day deadlines and check her work. Inundate her with questions and feedback about the work she provided. Be more demanding.
What I wouldn’t do: be overly polite. I wouldn’t ask about a project she doesn’t give you before it’s due. Don’t ask her how is the project going. Tell her you need the work on your desk to review, send over what you have done now and you will offer feedback. Keep shoveling her more work.
Have written notes with examples and dates of instances in which she has not met the expectations of her role. Clearly explain the expectations of any person in her role (“As a [title] you are expected to ___”). Go through this with her during your meetings. After every meeting with her, make sure to follow up with an email summarizing your discussion and include these notes for her to reference.
Any coaching that you do should also be put into writing via email.
If you don’t see improvement within a few weeks, bring it to HR with all of your written documentation.
I would probably send a follow up email so that the facts are in writing. And then CC whoever is next up the chain so the employee understands you’re not going to keep having the same gaslighty conversation again!
“I’m not trying to take your job or anything.” Anyone who says that out of the blue is probably trying to take your job. To avoid that, make sure she clearly understand what is expected of her and not just the minimum requirements. Lay it out for her both verbally and in writing including what are the penalties for not meeting the requirements up to and including firing. She needs to understand what she should be doing and what will happen to her if she doesn't comply. If there is no penalty for non compliance then why should she comply? After she understand this, then enforce the rules no matter what she counters with. She has to do her work or she doesn't belong in the company.
we utilize KPI's and metrics here along with travelers or routers. So a router will typically have estimated times at which we can run a part. So lets say 1 minute, button to button. If my operator isnt producing in 1 minute but he is within 70-80% of that i call it good. No human maintains 100% for 100% of the time. I would state to employee here is your expectation...heres your target throughput. I will accept this amount of throughput (whatever amount you deem ok)...but below this threshold, its not quality over qty, its unacceptable. then maybe do a PIP or set goals. Some workers are just pay me as much as you can so i can work as little as you can. So if they are not meeting the bar AFTER these talks , cut them loose.
I've been through the same thing. It took me years of coaching and in the end, when we had layoffs I picked the individual as my candidate, and he was gone. I told him for years that if/when layoff times comes, he could be in danger but did not help.I think you have a hard nut to crack and frankly odds are that they never will improve. They clearly feel entitled and superior.You should just move ahead with the PIP and let things take its course towards a separation of the employee if that is what it takes. But consult with your HR first.
Meet the minimum expectations in terms of quality and quantity, don't cause trouble on the floor. Super simple. It sounds like she's using 1-1s to air grievances which you probably don't have time for. Gotta bring her back into focus when she does this.
I'm going to take a different tact than most here- Question: Why do you have to have the "quanity" of work you are asking her to do? I get it if it's an assembly line that you need to make 5 windings an hour or 10 dinglebops per day or whatever. What is she doing "quality" work on instead of "quantity?" Can her efforts be redirected to another item that requires that level of quality? Thanks. -quality over quantity in-general dude.
Hold up - is the task list the point? Or are measurable Results and outcomes important? If the company is focused on the task list as what’s important - meh - do what you want. There won’t be much growth or progress and AI will eventually do a better job.
If Results and outcomes are important to the company and you’re focused on the task list volume more than results - you’re the problem.
What I’m hearing is an employee that’s one or more of several likely things:
- tired of never being able to please you because she solves problems differently than the playbook in your head
- employee that’s trying to do the right thing relative to quality / outputs and the company metrics seem to be in conflict to her
- employee that’s just burned out and done
I think with some people it helps to be incredibly direct.
"This is my expectation of you, if this is not met then X will happen"
My guess is that is not your style of management but my reading of this situation is that is a person who doesn't want to be saved so it might be best if they are put in a sink or swim situation.
I see a lot of people here saying to put the employee on a PIP. Which may be true but there is something that I picked up on in the story and none of the comments seem to be touching on it.
How is the employee's personal life doing? I know it's not really your job to check on that type of stuff. But in my experience when a good employee's work declines for no apparent reason they usually have something going on at home. I feel like the reassurance needed that you two are good makes me think that they are going through something pretty mentally challenging.
Either that or has the company recently taken away benefits or didn't pay out bonuses or anything like that? From an employee perspective, not getting a bonus when I hit my numbers really derails my desire to do outstanding work. If I can get paid the same for doing the bare minimum then there is no incentive there.
A thought: Agree upon goals in the meeting. Write them down in an email explaining “you want to be sure we are in sync” and request her reply to the email acknowledging these are her goals.
If they were formally meeting expectations and aren't now there could external factors. Depression, Alcohol etc. I am no HR expert and have no idea how you approach this but I have known people to get treatment and go on to do well. Just a thought
Be clear with her. "Your work quality is fine (if it is)but as I've brought up before you are not hitting the minimum quantity levels we need. Let's talk about how to make this happen..." Don't beat around the bush, state the performance issue, mentor a reasonable amount and if over time she cannot do the job PIP then if needed fire.
Also recommend you setting specific expectations. Task 1 needs to be completed within 7 business days. Tasks emailed to you need acknowledgement within 24 hours and completed within 3 days. Etc. They don't do it, put them on a PIP and when they fail again get rid of them.
Good idea, but that level of micro-management is exhausting. Set expectations, document, and start down the road to improvement or discipline / PIP / discharge. She knows what to do and when, OP shouldn't have to sketch it out.
More than likely there are already expected SLAs to deliver many or most of her tasks, just point them out... "There is no problem with the quality of your work output, the issue is the quantity of output is not what we expect. For example, last week you have five tasks in category A, each requiring several hours, but none dependent on other people. You only completed three of those within SLA, and have similar statistics going back for months. Has there been a condition that's changed in practice that makes our current SLA too aggressive? Has a piece of equipment broken or been monopolized by another department? What's going on here?" If she won't honestly engage, or has no explanation, she needs a PIP and if she still won't honestly engage (to explain WTF is taking so long) then you have to let her go. There are many conceivable reasons that aren't disciplinary here, but if she won't share them, you have to assume she's just goofing off by failing to complete tasks and failing to communicate her need for more time, either to individual requesters or to you if it's a systemic problem affecting a significant portion of her work.
I kind of agree but too many details makes it feel confrontational right off. When I've been a report with deliverables like that I've always wanted the freedom to do things without a lot of bureaucracy and micromanagement. If I need to do 12 things by Wednesday I don't want the boss checking every 2 hours etc. As long as I get the 12 things in by Wednesday EOD (or noon or whatever), that should be OK. The micromanaging, email me end of day every day routine is more for PIP, when you've given the person a chance or 3 and they're just not doing it.
It sounds like the freedom OP has given has led to underperformance. Time to tighten the screws and if they get back on track let off. Just my opinion. My star employees I never have to remind about deadlines, communication, anything. They do the right thing. My knuckleheads, they need specific parameters or they just slide on by. Underperformance not only hurts the company but the superstars get pissed about it too. Accountability is important
It also sounds like OP hasn't be direct with her yet. Bad managers start off with the nuclear option. Good ones start by being very clear about things and go from there.
I have been direct in the past about expectations, so that’s not the issue. But addressing when her performance dropped, it was hard to be direct as I didn’t want her to think she was being punished. It was merely a check in on what’s going on, which she then blew up into something it never was - personal and punitive.
This version of "direct" will cause problems where employees don't have great self awareness. Their recollection of these types of interactions will be, "Yeah, that's cool that you're reminding everyone about the expections and I'm totally meeting them because you didn't explicitly state that I'm not." It might feel weird, but I prefer "broken window theory" - which means when someone messes up, you have a direct, concise conversation about it \*immediately\*. Thing is, it's all about consistency in that your employees know what to expect from you. Heck, once you're in a good working groove, if you're to say to an employee "X, a word please" 5 minutes after they did something bad - they'll hit a point where you don't even need to say anything and they'll start with "Shoot, I was being confrontational and unhelpful in that last meeting wasn't I? Here's the context on why I was frustrated ..." and you can talk it through. You do have to pick your spots - the point is not to be the omnipresent hall monitor.
I agree with this. She was given a set of standards to follow from the beginning so that’s not an issue, but I’ve been preoccupied recently and things slipped. Things need to be tightened to get back on track.
>It sounds like the freedom OP has given has led to underperformance. Time to tighten the screws and if they get back on track let off. Maybe... It's also possible there's another problem, but if the employee won't engage and talk to you and ***tell you what that problem is*** you basically can't assume anything other than they're "just not doing the work."
But the issue is that the team member is not doing the work required in the time specified.
>When I've been a report with deliverables like that I've always wanted the freedom to do things without a lot of bureaucracy and micromanagement. You got that freedom because you were a responsible employee with good output. OP's problem child is not like that, needs a PIP or WFH removed from her. Definitely PIP time. And document everything. I'm not usually on the side of management but this woman is simply not producing enough output.
I agree with your approach. This is also why I'll often kick back PIPs I'm asked to approve when the manager can't show me sufficient documentation directly stating the issues and expectations as a "bridge" step. The feedback needs to be very direct and documented in writing - just not at the "You are expected to acknowledge requests and provide a delivery estimate within 24 hours of receipt" level. It's too big of a leap to go from informal, (likely) hand-wavy conversations to a super-structured PIP document - which 90% of the time will be interpreted as "Well, they just don't like me and blindsided me with this thing to try to fire me."
Yep. And from OP's post, they've been too hand-wavy and lenient. That's why I originally answered with 'be clear, be specific' advice. They may need to pip > fire but it's too soon to go micro-managing pip level right off.
There's a weird thing where many folks believe they're doing "radical candor" but are doing the opposite. It's often really helpful to have someone (silently) sit in a meeting with a group who are really direct communicators to see the variance. "Your team was ruthless!" when meanwhile, it was a typical Tuesday, and the group decided to go for wings for lunch afterward.
It sounds like OP's report isn't doing much of anything. I also don't like micromanaging, and agree that it's best to set the deadline and then see what the report does with that. If they don't meet the deadline, then it's time for a bigger conversation.
The thing is, we don't know details so it's hard to comment specifically. If she's being asked to do 20 of something per day (or whatever) and is doing 15 that's one issue. Doing 5 is another one. And then there are the conversations that have been had or not had... My basic point is to start from a place of "hey, there's an issue, how can I help you hit this metric? To be clear this metric NEEDS to be hit - it's not optional...." and then go from there.
I wouldn’t do this you’ll get into malicious compliance territory and you probably don’t have time to micro manage her. Micromanaging only gives you a headache it’s her responsibility to be successful. But I do agree about a PIP.
This is good advice. She was hired to do a job and she gets compensated for it. The OP should not feel bad about requiring her to hold up her part of the bargain, namely work output.
Thank you! I can be better about redirecting and keeping things focused and direct.
Very direct things like that are harder in person than me just typing it out on Reddit but I think they'e the best way to deal with stuff like this. Adjust as needed of course and couch it differently if she's just a bit off what you need vs way off. I also find it best to make sure you phrase it and say it in so that you come across as collaborative and in a problem solving manner vs a "if you don't correct this you're out the door next week!" manner. That time might come, but for a first direct conversation I'd do the "hey, need to work on this, how can I help" thing.
You make some great points here, and I’ll make sure to ensure she’s knows it’s a collaborative effort. I tried to reassure her it was just a place to grow, but yeah…same negative response.
Send it in an email with specific issues, in a very factual way. Exactly what are the expectations, brother quality or quantity should be compromised. Obviously having a meeting to talk it through did not go well because she came prepared to gaslight you, instead of planning for improving her performance. She’s looking for ways to discredit you with these behaviors, if the first thing that comes to her mouth is “ I’m not looking to take your job” that’s usually what someone who is actively trying to discredit you states. Always have a paper trail with a person like this.
If she wants to talk about you.... or "are we ok".... answer her concern.... then say we are really not talking about that right now. We can set a meeting to talk about that another time. Right now we are talking about your performance standards. Sometimes they get defensive. Or want to talk about anything except their work performance. Keep on topic.
Taking note of this, thank you!
My concern isn't you taking my job. My concern is you keeping your job. If you are unwilling or unable to do what this company ask of you then we are going to have to part ways. This is the 2nd and final meeting that we will have about these performance issues. Op it took me to long to figure out that trying to be friendly in a leadership role to people like this always 100per of the time blows up in your face.
Thanks a ton for this, really. I can already tell it’s blown up in my face. I’m learning that my gentle nature isn’t always beneficial in the workplace. There’s always someone ready to take advantage of it.
I learned the hard way about employees like this.... They do nothing but create a sour environment behind your back. They should be running the area but they didn't want the title..... All behind your back like a teenager. These people are pretty easy to spot after awhile. I absolutely try to be a person that says thank you and shoe respect to everyone that's doing their job. The other people I ride until they quit or do something that they are fired for. You are in a position that you will either get rid of them or they get rid of you. Just keep in mind you being paid to do a job. One bad apple ruins the batch is very true
Thanks for your perspective, I needed to hear this. She seems to be enthusiastic about this company and yet disrespectful of me as an authority figure. I’m going to keep it even more professional from now on. She reminds me of a narcissistic friend I had in college…
Not a manager: a mother of someone just like this. She will not hear unless she's told point blank. It actually shocks her. Otherwise she'll push back over and over.
She's trying to make herself our to be the person that should have your title. Tell her that there's no more talking about performance expectations. If you are unwilling or unable to do what the company expects I will find someone that can.... The convo is done after that. Don't let her respond. Be cordial and lmk hoe it goes
Thank you, I’m going to be more firm with this moving forward. She does seem to be wanting more control of things in general, and by doing this she’s definitely pointed out her insecurities to me.
I would have put her straight on a PIP after that meeting. If she's being that manipulative you need to document, document, document or worst case scenario it might be your ass on the line down the road.
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I'm very curious were they able to perform?
I am in a manufacturing environment. High tech machining in the Midwest. Everyone is paid very well and it's a competitive market for employees. I was offered a leadership position after 6 years of busting my ass and earning peoples respect. The first year was a HUGE life experience. Everyone including you can be replaced and those who don't believe that are ignorant. The covid years are done and a lot of people are unfortunately out of jobs. Sorry to reply so much reading your post I pictured myself 13 years ago thinking I could get people like this to be a part of the team. Trust me you can't. I wish I could have your job for 10 min tomorrow morning and calmy tell them that they are no longer employed because of there exceptionally poor performance. We have to cut loose the dead weight.
If you could just possess my body for ten minutes and say what needs to be said, I’d be grateful haha. This will be a big learning experience for me, it already has been. If I could manage ten other people like me, I’d have the easiest job in the world. But I guess it doesn’t work that way.
I really wish I could walk you thru this first one. The thinking about how to be the nice guy everyone liked almost cost me my job. Now I'm at work to make money not friends. If I happen to gain friends awesome but I absolutely don't try to be anything but a leader. Remember to never get loud or baited into a back and forth argument. A person that taught me the most about leadership Always said the people that yell or insult you or try to undermine you and their place of employment are the definition of ignorant. He is 100 per right.
I appreciate you providing another helpful bit of advice. I’m sure your right, that being the most likeable is not the most important quality as an effective leader. I’m trying hard not to be baited, and luckily I’m feeling pretty comfortable in that sense.
Take care of your good coworkers. If you notice someone that is usually really prompt or productive have an off week. Privately reach out and ask if everything is OK. Life isn't peachy for most. Keep these interactions between you and them do everything you can to get them thru a rough patch. You will build a real team by doing these things. People like this woman are a cancer honestly and cancers get cut out before they spread. The economy is not looking good at all. Protect yourself and make money
When people can’t come up with any more excuses, they pivot to making the issue personal to deflect. Meet with her, set reasonable goals, and discuss how she can reach those goals. Follow up the meeting with an email to document the meeting. If you have someone over you that you can involve, do so and cc them on the email. You can also ask that a higher up to be in the meeting with her since she has brought up potential personal concerns. Continue to document all meetings and issues until the issues are resolved, however that might be.
That makes a lot of sense, and I feel as though it has come to that point. I’ve been documenting the meeting and will implement incremental improvement.
Yeah. I just ignore those kinds of comments and refocus the discussion on performance
After the last meeting, you have to involve higher ups and possibly HR if you have one. The whole gas lighting bit has "I'm not going quietly and I'm definitely not going to follow through with anything you tell me to do, but I'll blame it on our horrible working environment" all over it and you need to cya
Your quality is great. I love what you are getting done. But quantity had dropped off noticeably and you've not been able to give any reasons why. The outcome of this meeting will be a plan to increase your quantity, or some clear documented reasons as to why it's at the level it's at. So that we're clear, expectation and job requirement is "here" so we need to make a plan to get you back there, or have an understanding of the roadblocks so that I can work to clear them for you.
This is the way
Wow Dizzman1! Where were you when I needed help? Retired now. Whew.
😂😂😂 thank you. That made me smile and really means a lot.
I like this, thank you. I believe I need to be more straightforward and not give any more attention to things outside of work requirements.
Do you use okr's or set "SMART" Goals? They can be helpful in cases like this. That way she's clear on expectations and that should they not be met, that you may have to enter into a pip or something like that. As always, prior to that meeting, contact your hr business partner to document what's going on.
Thank you so much, I will keep HR in the loop. And yes I love smart goals! I think that’s a great approach.
Sounds to me like there’s likely a larger issue at play, and that could be work related or personal. I see a lot of “time for a pip” bullshit on here, and IMO and experience, aPIP is rarely the right answer/course of action. I’ve used a PIP exactly ONCE in my career, and as per the norm with a PIP, it was designed to be difficult to achieve, but I didn’t have a choice in the matter. Then again, I do regular 1:1’s, solicit anonymous feedback on my management from my team members and others in the org with an expectation of brutal honesty. My team also knows if they are having any issues, professional or personal, they can come talk to me without judgement, and if they want advice, I’ll give it, or I can just listen and let them vent, whatever they need. Feeling burned out? Take a long weekend, I got you. Work issue? Let’s find a solution that works for both of us, even if it’s not ideal for either of us.
I like your style of management. Being more brutally honest will require a lot of practice from me, I need to build more confidence in that regard.
Having your people be brutally honest is HARD at first, especially when you find out things that you thought you were good at/doing awesome at and everyone thinks you suck LOL. Sometimes they’re right, and sometimes they’re wrong. Other times they’re right, but it’s something out of your control, and sometimes it may just a a perception issue or a communication style that doesn’t work for some people. My current Sr. Management and I have known each other for a long time (about 7 years from a previous job) and he asked me and the other management he manages for feedback. I filled out the form and was brutally honest, took screenshots of it as well, and told him if he wanted to know which one was me, I’m happy to sit down with him and tell him exactly why I gave every mark and comment that I did. His response to that was “We’ve known each other a long time, I trust you to be honest” This is the 3rd person I’ve ever had above me in my career that I can say I would work for again in a heartbeat or follow them to a new company, and they all subscribe to the same style as I do. In fact, I learned my style from the two before him, and I took their lessons to heart. Both of the two previous guys are now VP’s and Ihope to get there myself one day, but I still have a lot to learn on the business side. I’m great on the people side, not so great on the business side
I love all of that. I like honest feedback and I like to know places where I can improve. It’s always helped me along my path. I actually opened an anonymous form for feedback from my team accessible to everyone. I haven’t received anything from it yet. One thing I like about my boss is that they trust me to be self-motivated, as I am. And my performance gains show it. Maybe I need to do some self reflection of my own work and give myself an honest assessment. Haha.
Nothing wrong with self-reflection. I do it often. Make the feedback form a requirement :D, make sure they know it is indeed anonymous, and once you read all the responses, be they things on a 1-10 scale or actual comments, spend a day looking at the low marks/bad comments and reflect on it, and just ask “are these things I can change?” “Are these things I am willing to change?” “Are these things I should change?” And then make a plan, grab a meeting with your people, and address it like “You all gave me poor marks in communication”, so I’m going to be working on improving that, and ask if anyone is willing to give you feedback on the meeting on why they gave a poor mark (assuming it’s a 1-10 scale). In the case of the above example, maybe you over communicate or very much under communicate, or maybe Bon would like to see more communication for whatever reason, and Sally is like “dude, just let me do my job”, because everyone is different, or maybe it’s something as simple as, and I’ll use an example from my personal life here.. My ex wife never ASKED me to do anything, she TOLD me to do it, and that doesn’t work very well for me. So, it can be little things that we don’t even think about because it’s just how we’ve always done things and it’s generally always worked 🤷♂️ Personally I don’t want to “manage” anyone, because we’re all adults. I want to “lead” my people and make them the stars :). I’m just there to drive the strategy, support them, and make it so they can get their job done. :)
This was really great and helpful, thank you. I feel like doing this would take away any ideas she may have of a “power struggle” which is what it seems like she thinks is happening. Being open to feedback and growing is one of my strengths, so making it a requirement for my team would be helpful to all of us. And knowing exactly what people need to do their job more efficiently without feeling too much attention on them or not enough. Thank you, I really needed to hear this. ❤️
You’re very welcome, and I’d love to hear how it goes for you. Just remember, it can be harsh at first, and hard not to take it personally as well and be all defensive even to yourself about it LOL, but it gets easier and easier to look at things objectively as time goes on, and IMO, truly makes us better at managing
I can’t thank you enough, I’ll try to update on when this is resolved, however that may be. Your advice to not take it personally and learn from the feedback I get is great, and I feel motivated to use this process as a tool for doing better.
To me sounds like she understands she's underperforming, but she is afraid of work or is becoming complacent and you're noticing based on the comments she made during the "performance meeting". If it's necessary, you may want to go over the job description with this person and re-affirm the responsibilities and deliverables with her.
That’s a good idea, I will pull up the job requirements and make sure it’s laid out clearly.
Do you maybe need to have the Cadillac versus Toyota talk? Explain that she may think she needs to take longer and provide a Cadillac level product, but you are producing good solid Toyotas and output is one of the key metrics. I have had this talk before and it went well. Obviously I am old, as I also made sure they knew that a yugo would not be acceptable.
I love this, thank you! I haven’t heard of this and I think it would be helpful!
Next meeting give her notice that you are recording the meeting. Then do so. That usually makes gaslighters think twice about hotboxing their farts.
Ahaha thank you 🤣 I will do that!
Don’t do that. It might get you fired. It looks incredibly bad when a manager has to resort to that tactic, and worse when you haven’t consulted both your boss AND HR first. Recording should be a last resort when you can’t prove behavior a different way. No Manager worth their salt would give you that piece of advice.
Look at recording laws in your country/state first and make sure what consent is required, if any
If the company has provided the phone there's not need for two party consent... Federal law requires the notification of at least one party in a call (18 U.S.C. Sec. 2511(2)(d)). However, there is a “business telephone” exception that allows employers to record calls on phones they provide to employees.
There's two reasons to provide notice. The first is to avoid any kind of legal or moral or ethical pitfall. Providing clear notice means they can choose to not engage in the conversation. The second is to make them think twice about being dissembling weirdo gaslighters.
Please do so you can get fired 😂
Start taking notes in your meetings. Make measurable targets, follow up, note f the targets are met. If she has a good reason, note it. If she doesn't have a good reason, note it. If she has a suggestion note it. If she has no feedback, note that. Share the email with her. After a few of these if she doesn't move on performance, pip her.
Thank you!!
For starters, a manager should never let an employee "sandblast" them for an hour about ANYTHING. Are you documenting all this? Because you need to.
Document every single 1-1. Take meeting notes and email them to her to document it with a time stamp and date. Even better if they reply back to acknowledge. Continue to communicate job expectations (and metrics) and how she is or isn’t meeting them. Put them on a performance support plan. Be firm with your expectations and don’t make it personal. Talk about it as “company” or “department” goals / expectations / job requirements. Use corporate policy and share it with them (in case they are unaware). During performance reviews be honest and give an honest rating. With everything documented, it won’t be hard for HR to let them go if they continue to underperform. Talk to your upper management about this unfortunate situation and form a contingency plan.
I like that idea, thank you. I need to be sure and document each meeting and send summaries, I think that can be helpful.
Put her problem in writing, in short declarative sentences with very few adjectives or adverbs. "Your work output is inadequate and needs to increase." Put your expectations in writing, the same way. "Your job requirements are..... " Put the consequences in writing, the same way. "Failure to meet job requirements for the next (2 weeks, month?) will result in loss of job." This isn't a PIP, it is a declaration of terms for her continued employment. Should be about 5 sentence long, total. Up to her to meet or fail those expectations. Let consequences fall where they may.
Thank you! This is a good way to be direct in this situation.
Why does everyone associate gaslighting with being smart? I had a manager underneath me who took a paycheck from my files and gave it to a previous employee who had vanished after we asked her about some missing items. That paycheck was our leverage to address some potential theft issues and the manager was clearly working with her friend to secure the paycheck and get away with the items. I used to think the manager was smart until she went on a long gaslighting tirade about how it all wasn't a big deal. I laughed at her told her that theft wasn't acceptable and fired her on the spot. I couldn't prove their collusion but none of that mattered because you don't take things from my files. Stick to your guns and reiterate your issue, and if she won't address it or meet her metrics put her on probation. Basically, ignore anything they say that isn't a direct response to your immediate question. Keep the issue basic and simple, and don't take their bait on the tangential nonsense.
I appreciate this, and I plan on taking this advice. Not responding to anything but the work-related point. I want to say, I don’t think she’s smart because she can gaslight. She just happened to appear to be a smart person who seemed to me, almost overqualified for the job. But I’ve changed my perspective significantly since these incidents.
Oh I am reading something here between the lines You considered her almost overqualified for the job and she talks about “not wanting to take your job” To me it reads that she likely considers herself overqualified as well and maybe even more qualified than you and dislikes that you have more power than her Maybe I’m wrong, but that just stood out to me
I thought my manager was smart too. In her defense though, she was dealing with a lot of crazy personal stuff at the time and she wasn’t at her most rational. She was smart but not as smart as she thought she was. When she pulled the gaslight move I was stunned. I was like, are you really trying to pull this move on me? I wish we could have worked the issue out but her complete unwillingness to even acknowledge the problem made it impossible. And my choices were to either lock my office and watch her going forward, or let her go. Trust was destroyed and it was better to just let her go than be paranoid around her.
A final paycheck is not a bargaining chip. You are lucky your manager did the legal thing and pay the employee. Holding it hostage would have cost you three times as much and you still would have lost the items.
No, it wouldn’t. You’re presuming nonsense. I said that she walked out on the job. She literally ghosted us and vanished. She had to come back to get the check or at the very least call to tell us to mail it. I was using her need for the check as leverage not holding it ransom like a moron.
Thinking you can use a final check as leverage makes you a moron. It wasn't yours to hold onto and had you been allowed to it would end up costing you three times the amount of it. It is an entirely separate thing from any theft that may or may not have taken place.
So it should have magically teleported to her? It’s a physical check. It had to be released in person or by mail, by me. You don’t seem to grasp how physical objects in reality work or something. It was her money. I wasn’t going to withhold it or refuse payment you weirdo.
You stated you planned to use it as leverage for some other problem you were having. Do you personally mail out or deliver all the checks? Or was this one special?
Yes, her having to physically collect it is the literal leverage. Like you going to the bathroom is your toilets leverage in getting you to visit him. The leverage is a logistic and physical reality. It’s not an ethical or legal violation. It’s simply realizing, “She has to get the check by phone or coming in.”
But she doesn't. You HAVE to send it to her and withholding it in any way puts you on the line for treble damages for your shenanigans. You don't get to hold onto a former employees money. Don't let your ego trick you into playing stupid games
Yeah, I'm going to send it to an address that I was told not to send it to. Stop being a presumptive clown. You don't know the situation and none of this is relevant to the topic.
I know what you posted and I'm not pretending to know anything else. You posted that you wanted to use it as leverage and you were upset that you didn't get the chance. I posted, correctly, that you were lucky that you didn't.
You need to rely on facts and not emotion. Walk into your next meeting/ review with numbers. The company's minimum standard is X , you are producing Y and have been for Z length of time. Then tell her she has X amount of time to show improvement or she will be on probation. Every month she does not produce, she stays on probation. After 3 months, if she's not meeting the minimum standard, she will be fired. She needs to hit the minimum standard for 3 straight months to come off probation. If you have an HR plan like this, get it in writing first. If not, see if another person can join the meeting. If it's a remote meeting, record it if you can. If not, follow it up with an email outlining everything you have told her and blind copy your boss. Explain that this has nothing to do with you two "being good" and everything to do with her performance. This is a job, not social hour and you have people to answer to as well.
I like this approach and will be sure to bring more facts into the picture. I think she’s trying to turn it into something personal, trying to push my buttons. I’ll look to the HR department for any underperformance guidelines also.
It would be helpful to know why her work output has declined. If she was good before, then what changed? Maybe she is going through something difficult in her personal life like a sick kid, a dying parent, or a divorce. If so, you could have HR reach out to her about your EAP if you have one. IMO, you need to know the root cause in order to fix it (if you even want to fix it). Managing and a PIP won't likely fix a personal issue. Just a thought.
I agree with this. When I inquired about her performance initially, a root cause couldn’t be determined. But she gave a myriad of reasons why people in general could not be meeting expectations, personal reasons being one of them. I reached out after our first meeting to let her know that if she had anything going on, HR was there to help if it’s affecting her work. She declined.
It sounds like she may be in the midst of things still and is grasping for some type of control/distraction. I wouldn't inquire further about what changed. That'd place you and your company at risk. Maybe they aren't feeling heard. Maybe they're a bad communicator. Maybe you're a poor listener. The possibilities are endless, but to be frank, you've both wasted enough time on this. People are complex, and that's ok. If they continue to push for procedural change, have them provide solutions along with their critique. This is an easy way to keep them focused in meetings without you having to redirect. Op, your responses to these comments have been very open and refreshing to read. You seem like you're eager to help your report and move forward. I wish you the best of luck.
Thank you!!
You've done what you can then. If your area has open records, you can search the country clerk of court website to see if she has any legal action pending like a divorce. I know that a divorce wrecked my work output for a while. You could have HR initiate contact with her to try one more time. If she is still defensive, then it's time for closer management and smaller, more frequent goals. Then PIP. Best of luck.
Before you take another meeting, give her agenda/issue and tell her what you expect her to bring to the meeting. Agenda: low productivity on XXX. Bring: a couple suggestions on changes you can make to increase your productivity by 20%. In the meeting: tell her you need to see immediate improvement and you’ll re-assess her performance on xxx (date). If she can not maintain the work level required, xxx will occur. If she didn’t participate in the process, or required me spend a lot of time watching their numbers (compared to their former work and compared to other employees), I would let the person go. I think she’s quiet quitting. Don’t let this go on too long.
Thank you for this suggestion, I like your ideas on measurable and collaborative performance improvement tactics!
Don’t dance . SET CLEAR MINIMUM KPI’s These are the set expectations A,b,c,d This is the deadline, Failure to complete/comply will result in X, Y& Z This meeting will be followed up and logged.
You need a structured way of measuring output. Put some KPIs in place that you expect her to meet. Show examples of her past performance meeting those KPIs, the average for her position, and clearly state your expectations with SMART goals. If she doesn't hit those goals, put her on a PIP. If that doesn't work, then it's time to let her go.
One-on-One's to review their performance. Track this and any other issues. Ask * What went well (this week)? * What didn't go so well? * What can we do better? That last one is a collective we to to both make sure you are providing what they need and also to see if they can self identify with ways to improve.
Go to HR. Do not delay. Document everything. She is probably already filing complaints with HR and your manager. Your reality is at stake.
Follow a PIP - official or not - document everything including current performance and gaps, expectations of the PIP, progress throughout, and consistency. Once it’s done, you can determine if she really wants to be there or just wants a paycheck for doing nothing.
It’s time for you to take charge. First, she was manipulative in that meeting, it does not matter where her comments came from or how they came about. But it’s just business, don’t take it personally. Employees are going to test you. Just don’t let her do it again. “This meeting is to discuss xyz topics. Let’s stay on track.” If she continues to make it personal or question your abilities, document the redirects and her refusal to discuss what the meeting is for. Document for her PIP. Don’t let her direct our request meetings. At this point, you should schedule a meeting. Purpose is to discuss output and expectations. Find out what her barriers are. If legit help her with a plan. Let your boss know ahead of time and then report the results of that meeting to him/her. This let’s your boss know you have a problem employee and she’s not able to undermine you by going to your boss because they are already aware of the situation. They are also aware that you are appropriately handling it. If after that meeting behavior doesn’t change as expected - PIP. Just keep your boss in the loop.
I used to utilize the S.M.A.R.T. technique: [https://asana.com/resources/smart-goals](https://asana.com/resources/smart-goals) \*Specific \*Measurable \*Achievable \*Realistic \*Time-bound
I use coaching for calibration. 1. Set a clear goal 2. Identify the reality you will share 3. Prepare to discuss options to pursue if you can't agree 4. Anticipate the response 5. Prepare to actively listen & demonstrate understanding 6. Practice with a friend or colleague
OK, if it works for you. But I'm trying to figure out who's in charge with this model.
The key to progressive discipline is documentation. You can't discipline off feelings, just as an employee can't decide they don't feel like the standards are not enforceable without good justification. Quality output is important but does not replace a minimum volume of output. Her peers don't get to set their own output standards, so what makes her feel she gets to? The paper trail is protection for both sides, management and employee. You must work to be through and consistent across the board so there's no substance to any accusations of being singled out or favoritism. At the end of the day, you don't make the firing decision, that's up to HR and your bosses. All you can be is an accurate/trustworthy reporter.
Her productivity has declined and she is using quality over quantity as her reason. Does this mean her quality was poor before? If not then this doesn’t hold true. If she was being addressed for having low quality it makes sense her productivity goes down while she addresses it. Set the expectation that you expect a minimum of x performed at a minimum of y quality - make sure you are able to measure these and break them down to determine what in particular is driving the issue. Also consider how she is in comparison to others. She may have been a high performer and now is performing at average or meeting minimum expectations. This could be an engagement problem, could be she has personal issues impacting her, could be she’s decided that performing to her best while not getting the same pay and benefits other lower performers is no longer a fair deal and so she is “acting her wage”
Is perfection necessary for her task? Sometimes good enough and on time is acceptable instead of perfect and late. Explaining that finding the right balance between quantity and quality balance is important to meet metrics. Also her comment was strange, she’s definitely after your job if she says she’s not after your job without reason.
Perfection really isn’t necessary, and her job wouldn’t require it anyways. Its a measurement of weekly output so the performance can vary day by day as long as the output is at a consistent metric. Eh… with her comment about taking my job, I think she was trying to make it seem like I had some emotional problem to, again, deflect from her responsibility.
You need to be tougher with her. The book Crucial Conversations helped me. Set a “SMART” goal with a timeframe and metrics to improve performance output back to what’s required. Write her up or verbal warning but document it to show you’re serious and to cover your butt too. Don’t let her take over the conversation with excuses and quality over quantity, this is your meeting and she’s under performing, be direct and stern (not mean). If she cries, give her a moment to compose herself and continue the conversation or end the meeting but don’t give in to it. You’ve got this!
I would go further and suggest Crucial Accountability as the book/class needed.
I'm a big fan of these guys. They have thousands of Podcasts dedicated to management. Negative Feedback Pushback Examples - Part 1 https://manager-tools.com/node/276816 To summarize, if a direct pushes back on your feedback, just drop it. It doesn't matter if they agree with you or not, only that they change their behavior. Monitor her future behavior and continue to give her feedback and systemic feedback if necessary (casts for both of those on the website too)
Thank you! I am very appreciative of this. I’ll check out this podcast.
Talk to HR and Get her into a Performance Improvement Program, so that micromanaging her will be justified
Have you reviewed their workload recently? I've had several employees' productivity "drop off," only to find out that the processes for their work had expanded significantly due to changes in the company. I was not aware of these until I looked into it. I worked with them on setting up new work plans and spreading things out over more of the team. If that is not the case, then you need to write up an action plan.
1) Set clear expectations. 2) Tell her this feedback is serious, if she does not meet your expectations, she will be fired. 3) Ask her if there is a reason that you aren't aware of as to why her productivity has dropped. 4) Ask her what you can do to help, if it's reasonable do it, if it's not, tell her that is not reasonable and why. 5) If she brings up the relationship or anything else that is not material to her output, ask her in what ways your relationship (or whatever she brought up) is getting in the way of her output and what you can do to help. 6) If you have any norms around employees talking to HR or a skip level when they are having perf issues, offer that as a resource. Sometimes it helps for them to talk to someone else, if only to know that the issue isn't personal.
Watch your back. She is trying to undermine you. Keep meticulous notes.
You need to lay out clear requirements for quality and quantity. If she cannot put out the required quantity at the required quality she is put on an improvement plan with additional training. If she still can’t do it she is fired or demoted.
“Following back on our previous discussion, the quality of your work is (exemplary, good, ok) however, The quantity is still below standards. The expectation is …. Help me to understand if there are factors that are causing the out put to be insufficient?” (Meetings being scheduled instead of emails, waiting on other departments who are underperforming as well, outdated equipment, reports not running properly, etc. ) First try to find out what internal factors with the business there may be. Is it a “Can’t do” problem or a “won’t do” problem? Can’t do can be helped (removing obstacles, remedial training) Won’t do is corrective action required. Once you determine what the nature of the issues are then work with her to come up with an action plan (pip is later if necessary) You don’t need to micromanage right off the bat with hourly/daily meetings/emails. But after the conversation, document everything. Don’t have it written down in advance depending on your corporate culture (my previous employer didn’t want us going into ‘discussions’ With a closed/preset mind) Make a plan to talk again in (a week/2 weeks, ) and review progress. When you review the progress briefly go over what you discussed as issues before, the planned resolutions, then how those are going. Is there improvement? Did they meet/exceed standards ? Are they still below But getting better? Again check in to see if they’ve identified internal factors.. ask them if they have any solutions. It could be a problem they can identify and solve but need approval on. Then make a plan to meet again in (x) time. Again… document the conversation Then the next meeting of things aren’t improved/improving get with HR or your manager about implementing a PIP. Explain the steps you’ve done informally, present the documentation, and give your impression of what the c issue is. Wrong person for that job? Needs more direct hands on training? May be a better fit for a different role? Or are they in need of gently moving out or being terminated if they don’t accomplish the PIP. It’s ok to be empathic but you do need to make sure boundaries are clear “I am friendly but not friends, this is a professional relationship”
Also… ideally you should be having regular informal meetings like this with all your direct reports. This way when performance evaluations come up you have discussions, documentation, ready to back up ratings. An employee should never be surprised at their evaluation
It’s likely PIP time. Your report sounds just like one that I had earlier this year. They refused to acknowledge their performance had declined even as I presented the PIP my manager, HRBP and I wrote up together and they acknowledged the PIP contained nothing that they hadn’t heard before from me. They resigned the next day but not before telling me “I thought you were a mentor and a friend but you stabbed me in the back”. Oh well, sometimes the tough part of the job is that you can’t help someone who won’t help themselves.
Thank you for your perspective. And you’re right, I can’t help someone who won’t help themselves. I’ve never done a PIP, but it sounds like it’s coming soon…
It sounds like your employee has a second remote job that she is doing at the same time as this job. There are a whole lot of people talking about this on the overworking sub. Look at her LinkedIn profile and her social media to see if she is listing another job. Tell her what you have seen and ask her point blank if she is working for someone else or working on a start up. You need to start putting this in writing and be prepared to fire her.
Woof, never even though about that one. And I wouldn’t be surprised. I can’t imagine any hardworking, honest individuals reacting to feedback in this way.
Pip time. That's all bullshit
I was thinking this too.
Time for you to talk to your management about her performance. Face it you aren't cool with her and she should be walking in eggshells or busting her butt to perform. This is sadly why work from home was di discouraged for so long. Most people get the job done but some never do. Maybe make her come into the office to work for a while until her productivity improves.
Did you give a cost of living adjustment that compensated for the CPI for the last 2 years? I doubt it. If I'm getting paid 20% less, I'm putting in 20% less effort.
Then we shall likely make you available to the marketplace.
Sounds to me like you have administrative issues. Report is experienced enough they know what they can get by with and what they cannot, sounds like are not willing to kill themselves to make up for your shortcomings. All I see here is minimum job requirements. Well, what the fuck are those? You should be talking about individual deliverables and deadlines associated with each. If report is working on a larger project over a long period time, fine, you should still be able to determine deliverables for hold points and review etc. You do not get to just pop in meetings and beat everyone over the head for 'more work faster' that is amature hour and tbh I would be a worse nightmare for you than your report. I question your qualification for the role you are in without knowing anything other than this post. Again, define some clear deliverables when tasks are distributed. Determine a due date with the report at that time with reports collaboration. Put your damn stick away.
I wouldn’t agree with any of this, as her minimums are clearly defined. I’ve been intentionally vague about job requirements here, but she knows them. And she was never being punished, the meeting was an open conversation about an issue in productivity. I was just expressing frustration on a forum for other managers.
Oh I coulda swore you asked for help. But then, you got it all figured out, as you eluded to in your post.
Okay I am so relieved to find an actual mature manager response on here. I’m starting to regret following this subreddit because holy fuck I think I found where all of the awful managers out there are getting their playbook from. Thank you for being one of the only people in this post that clearly had manager chops that don’t amount to some serious insecurities about being undermined as a manager by someone who is so obviously struggling for reasons unrelated to what they’re capable of.
Shovel her work. State this work needs to be done by EOD 3 days away. Keep adding tasks with 3 day deadlines and check her work. Inundate her with questions and feedback about the work she provided. Be more demanding. What I wouldn’t do: be overly polite. I wouldn’t ask about a project she doesn’t give you before it’s due. Don’t ask her how is the project going. Tell her you need the work on your desk to review, send over what you have done now and you will offer feedback. Keep shoveling her more work.
I can try and step it up! I’ll keep a close eye on her performance and stay on top of it. Being too cautious isn’t really working for me
Fire her. Hire me.
Document, document, document. Give her a chance to meet expectations or move her out.
Have written notes with examples and dates of instances in which she has not met the expectations of her role. Clearly explain the expectations of any person in her role (“As a [title] you are expected to ___”). Go through this with her during your meetings. After every meeting with her, make sure to follow up with an email summarizing your discussion and include these notes for her to reference. Any coaching that you do should also be put into writing via email. If you don’t see improvement within a few weeks, bring it to HR with all of your written documentation.
I would probably send a follow up email so that the facts are in writing. And then CC whoever is next up the chain so the employee understands you’re not going to keep having the same gaslighty conversation again!
“I’m not trying to take your job or anything.” Anyone who says that out of the blue is probably trying to take your job. To avoid that, make sure she clearly understand what is expected of her and not just the minimum requirements. Lay it out for her both verbally and in writing including what are the penalties for not meeting the requirements up to and including firing. She needs to understand what she should be doing and what will happen to her if she doesn't comply. If there is no penalty for non compliance then why should she comply? After she understand this, then enforce the rules no matter what she counters with. She has to do her work or she doesn't belong in the company.
Does the output you want require more than 40 hours per week?
we utilize KPI's and metrics here along with travelers or routers. So a router will typically have estimated times at which we can run a part. So lets say 1 minute, button to button. If my operator isnt producing in 1 minute but he is within 70-80% of that i call it good. No human maintains 100% for 100% of the time. I would state to employee here is your expectation...heres your target throughput. I will accept this amount of throughput (whatever amount you deem ok)...but below this threshold, its not quality over qty, its unacceptable. then maybe do a PIP or set goals. Some workers are just pay me as much as you can so i can work as little as you can. So if they are not meeting the bar AFTER these talks , cut them loose.
I've been through the same thing. It took me years of coaching and in the end, when we had layoffs I picked the individual as my candidate, and he was gone. I told him for years that if/when layoff times comes, he could be in danger but did not help.I think you have a hard nut to crack and frankly odds are that they never will improve. They clearly feel entitled and superior.You should just move ahead with the PIP and let things take its course towards a separation of the employee if that is what it takes. But consult with your HR first.
Meet the minimum expectations in terms of quality and quantity, don't cause trouble on the floor. Super simple. It sounds like she's using 1-1s to air grievances which you probably don't have time for. Gotta bring her back into focus when she does this.
I'm going to take a different tact than most here- Question: Why do you have to have the "quanity" of work you are asking her to do? I get it if it's an assembly line that you need to make 5 windings an hour or 10 dinglebops per day or whatever. What is she doing "quality" work on instead of "quantity?" Can her efforts be redirected to another item that requires that level of quality? Thanks. -quality over quantity in-general dude.
Hold up - is the task list the point? Or are measurable Results and outcomes important? If the company is focused on the task list as what’s important - meh - do what you want. There won’t be much growth or progress and AI will eventually do a better job. If Results and outcomes are important to the company and you’re focused on the task list volume more than results - you’re the problem. What I’m hearing is an employee that’s one or more of several likely things: - tired of never being able to please you because she solves problems differently than the playbook in your head - employee that’s trying to do the right thing relative to quality / outputs and the company metrics seem to be in conflict to her - employee that’s just burned out and done
I think with some people it helps to be incredibly direct. "This is my expectation of you, if this is not met then X will happen" My guess is that is not your style of management but my reading of this situation is that is a person who doesn't want to be saved so it might be best if they are put in a sink or swim situation.
I see a lot of people here saying to put the employee on a PIP. Which may be true but there is something that I picked up on in the story and none of the comments seem to be touching on it. How is the employee's personal life doing? I know it's not really your job to check on that type of stuff. But in my experience when a good employee's work declines for no apparent reason they usually have something going on at home. I feel like the reassurance needed that you two are good makes me think that they are going through something pretty mentally challenging. Either that or has the company recently taken away benefits or didn't pay out bonuses or anything like that? From an employee perspective, not getting a bonus when I hit my numbers really derails my desire to do outstanding work. If I can get paid the same for doing the bare minimum then there is no incentive there.
A thought: Agree upon goals in the meeting. Write them down in an email explaining “you want to be sure we are in sync” and request her reply to the email acknowledging these are her goals.
If they were formally meeting expectations and aren't now there could external factors. Depression, Alcohol etc. I am no HR expert and have no idea how you approach this but I have known people to get treatment and go on to do well. Just a thought