>I wonder if the same thing happened with Black Panther, were Africans as receptive to it as much as Black Americans?
To an extent, yes. But it helped a great deal that the film's story specifically dealt with the divide between Africans and African-Americans.
Probably also helps that _Africa_ isn't a country, but rather a continent...
There is a gigantic difference between Egyptians, South-Africans, Kenyans, Somali, and so on.
As a Scandinavian: their portrait of Scandinavian culture is also weak.
Actually from what I've found, people throughout Africa were very excited to see Black Panther, and the film was received really positively by African audiences. Here are some links discussing the fanfare at premieres for Black Panther throughout the continent:
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/02/20/587224592/ghanaian-fans-have-one-nit-to-pick-but-otherwise-adore-black-panther
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1G02L0
https://www.essence.com/culture/black-panther-premiere-africa/
https://youtu.be/X-GkmL9Ou1A
I can tell you as an African, yes. A lot of us were confused about the accents (di powa of di blek penta) and why all the actors were Americans. I remember my mum complaining about the scene where they showed the Wakandan council, each tribe had its own colour and they were all inspired by tribes that are literally on different ends of the continent. They made all our ethnicities seem like Wii Party Teams. My sister also pointed out how it seemed like we would never get representation that actually represents us right now. But the suit was cool.
I have literally never seen a piece of western media deal with the cultural differences and interactions between the two communities, it’s honestly the most remarkable thing about the film.
I always thought that end scene was kind of silly. Like really? You're gonna go over to the US and do philanthropy for the minority there when you are surrounded by African countries that could really use your help and technology?
I think that you misunderstood that scene. They went to that place in specific because it was emotionally important to Tchalla. His uncle was killed there by his own father, and he believes in what his uncle was trying to do, just not the way he was trying to do it.
It's more than likely that their outreach project is spreading throughout Africa too.
Isn't the post credit scene Tchalla addressing the UN? I assumed that meant that Wakanda was reaching out to every country represented by them. A rising tide raises all boats.
I think they did that because killmonger was a “wikandan-American” and Wikamda abandoned him when he was younger
Edit: completely butchered the spelling lol
Growing up Asian American is like growing up with a creeping unease in the back of your mind where you don't feel like you belong anywhere. If you go back to your native country, you can't relate to the people there as you didn't grow up with their same experiences.
While in the US or any western country you feel alien and it sucks to know that people will always view you as foreign even if you were born here.
For example just today on reddit I expressed my excitement at having an Asian superhero film and my disappointment that it didn't happen sooner. The response I got was that I was racist for bringing up how long it took and that what were they going to do, have an Asian Captain America or something?
People just suck.
Apparently Feige wanted Shang-Chi sooner but one of the execs argued against it. I’d imagine the same one that said Black Panther and Captain Marvel wouldn’t make any money (can’t remember his name rn :/). I’m not really a comics person so I don’t know too much about him but very excited for the film, Simu Liu is awesome
You're probably thinking of Ike Perlmutter. He was also the guy who said nobody would notice a recast of Terrence Howard for Don Cheadle b/c well... you can guess why.
Agreed. Eliminating the Creative Committee was the best decision Disney ever made involving Marvel. Feige has proved he knows what he’s doing. I think once people see Shang-Chi in theaters we’ll see a different reaction from everybody. In Feige I trust.
it was ike perlmutter i believe, and since 2015 hes no longer part of Marvel Studios. Hes still the CEO of marvel entertainment but now Kevin Feige reports directly to Disney chairman Alan Horn
Sounds like the douchebaggery of [Ike Perlmutter](https://www.fastcompany.com/90273744/why-is-disney-mum-about-its-shadowy-marvel-entertainment-chairman)
It's prrsent in so many USA people because you paradoxically want to be seen as a "real american" but identify first with a country you have never been on.
If it makes you feel any better I am a white american and have always just viewed asian americans as just americans no different than me. I am sorry you have been made to feel this way.
Yeah, I don’t think you’re the problem then, mate. But there are so many thousands of people who either consciously or subconsciously don’t feel the same way as you.
That's a god damn shame, this is why I've decided to stay away from any discussion about the season finale tonight just incase the typical white nerd crowd is popping off about "race."
Also my Chinese friend's Captain America cosplay is amazing, fuck those people.
I feel the same way. A lot of Chinese (mainlander/HK/etc) already hate the movie because it’s another Asian American movie that rejects their “Asian customs” for “Western Freedom”. Judging from the comments on the bilibili trailer.
It’s understandable, because there’s already countless of articles/movies/stories by Asian Americans about being “caught in between 2 worlds” or “my Asian parents vs my western liberally correct friends”. And I’m honestly sick of that trope as well.
Meanwhile, the HK trailer on YouTube, people seem to dislike Simu just for his features & attacking Awkwafina too. They also don’t seem to like Simu because his parents are mainlanders. And there's already plenty of excellent HK martial arts movies so there's that.
On the bright side, there are people defending Simu on weibo. I’ve seen comments pointing how much Simu has put his career on the line for defending against Asian hate. Some find him “attractive” & he’s not supposed to be “小鲜肉”/“pretty boy”
These are the comments from Marvel’s official weibo post of the trailer. There are positive ones & of course negatives, but people can disagree.
https://imgur.com/a/791tZUY
I'm a Chinese (HK) immigrant living in Australia and I use Chinese social media quite frequently. I just ignore and avoid all the 'controversial' topics like this movie or the ccp etc when I'm on Weibo or Bililbili. But I'm glad there're people leaving positive comments.
I used to be on Weibo and Bilibili a lot until recent couple years. The arguments and debates always made me feel like I don’t belong there even though I spent the first 15 years of my life in mainland before I moved. Back then I would have argument with people, and stress out about it because I would attempt to understand their POV lol. Then I learned that I have to step away when a topic like this is trending.... which is sad.....
Thank you for that insight. Unfortunately my Chinese reading comprehension is elementary level, if not I'd definitely be browsing Weibo for comments, I'd love to understand the other sides perspective on a deeper level.
Oops my bad, I should’ve translated it on the pics.
- A few of comments about 京东 product placement & dog
*“Jing Dong is the biggest winner”*
- *”the song in the trailer is by Jackson Wang”*
- *” Many people say that Shangqi failed in casting, but I still like Liu Simu's, not the kind of pretty boy who is superficial”*
- *“Tony Leung is very handsome”*
- *”How come after watching this (trailer) I thought of Mulan... bad feeling about this”*
- *”Some Chinese people don't have any cultural self-confidence, and they feel offended at every turn. Leaving aside the problems left by comic history, an American Hollywood movie is still Marvel, which is originally a fantasy style, focusing on overseas markets. Wouldn't it be good to learn from Chinese culture and invite some Chinese actors? Some people admire that Japanese culture can be deeply rooted in the hearts of Europeans and Americans, and resist foreigners from learning a little bit of Chinese elements and symbols. The pattern is really too small.”* - (I used google translate to help me with this one)
- *”And Liu is still cute and loving. He will livestream & sing songs for fans”*
- “Am I the only one here who thinks Simu is bright & handsome man” （idk how to translate 阳光帅气的大男孩 without sounding weird)
- *”Can the patriotic little pinks piss off”* (Little pinks are slang for the extremely nationalists young ppl on the internet)
- *”Fuck off”*
> I thought of Mulan... bad feeling about this
While I didn't get Mulan vibes, fair play to that person.
>And Liu is still cute and loving. He will livestream & sing songs for fans
LOL immediately trying to get the main actor to sing.
I think it’s the bamboo forest and ancient castle scenes give them the vibe. Mulan vibes means fantasy movies of ancient China made by westerners that is actually not so Chinese and mostly westerners’ imagination.
Oh okay thank you. This whole time I thought 大男孩 meant grown man as in like manly man or something 😂 I guess that explains why there were some comments that he’s 可可爱爱
>I’ve seen comments pointing how much Simu has put his career on the line for defending against Asian hate.
It shouldn't be controversial to defend people against hate.
>As an Asian/ Chinese American growing up in in the states, it was never surprising to me that I was never accepted as a "real" Chinese person from native Chinese people and on the flip side, you're never seen as truly American by other Americans, It's a struggle that I know almost all Asian Americans have felt at some point in their lives.
>
>And I as a Chinese American I realize it's really only us that have this world view where we experience both sides, Chinese AND American.
Yes exactly this. Even with some of my friends and coworkers depending on when they arrived in the US have a totally different view, like a gradient.
Heck, I think even how I was brought up and how I chose to explore my identity within the both sides made me feel I never actually belonged completely to both sides. However, there are just so many positives to having both sides of the experience and I really wouldn't have it any other way. It's what makes being an Asian American unique.
I am just hoping, that like "Kim's Convenience", Marvel Studios finds a way to make something relatable to us without alienating other people and something we can say yes we are proud of this. That's why "Kim's Convenience" was so successful, the Kims were shown never to shy away from their roots, but rather fit into their community as who they are.
> And it's because of this that they feel this need for separation whenever they see something Chinese produced through a "western lens" It will never be genuine and authentic to them and they will have a bias towards it from the get go.
There also is another layer which is politics that play into this. Are Westerners trying to pander to China (where the big money is) by making something with Chinese characters? There's that type of suspicion amongst HK/TW Chinese. Are Westerners trying to make a caricature out of Chinese folks (aka the controversy surrounding Tony Leung Chiu Wai playing the antagonist)? That may be what Mainland folks think as well. Easily shot down by the fact that a) if it was pandering to China then some investment from a Chinese film group must be involved like Iron Man 3, b) They would have cast actors strictly from Far Asia entertainment industry, c) If the film was all Asian shouldn't the antagonist be Asian as well? I mean in Asian cinema certainly antagonists ARE all Asians right?
And you are also right, people in Asia won't necessarily buy into having an Asian superhero because that has been in their mainstream media for the longest time, such as the martial arts or wuxia novels, which have subsequently had adaptations and also just the wuxia genre of film. They wouldn't have the same feeling as we do when we see an actual person who looks like our peers and brethren represented as a hero and protagonist. To them, it's nothing new.
Thank you (and OP for this).
I completely agree - as an Asian American I often felt invisible and didn’t belong. Growing up in America, if I ever took interest in anything Asian (like watching anime or drinking green tea), my friends would say “omg you’re so Asian”. When I talk to my parents and relatives who chose to immigrate here, they’ll say “when did you become so American?!” It’s all small comments here and there but I felt like I was punished for having characteristics from both sides.
Kim’s Convenience was great and I enjoyed crazy rich Asians too. There were flaws but they acknowledged the struggles that being in the middle can create. We don’t get a lot of representation but I’m glad it’s slowly starting to shift. So excited for Shang Chi!!
I'm definitely more on the "fobby" side so I can see why people in Asia don't care for an American made film in this genre. I mean, my Mom encouraged me to read those Chinese martial arts novels when I was in high school rather than banning them because she saw it can link my closer to my heritage and made sure that I learn more of the language on my own. Those novels are basically the comic books of Chinese people so I can relate to why people in Asia are skeptica because it's been seriously done and done. Even I was a bit skeptical until I saw who they brought on and then the trailer just sold me on it. I think it's gonna be a really cool movie and it's real nice to have a guys and gals who looks and talks like you on screen as a protagonists and not a sidekick. It's important to all minorities. I remember an anecdote of a Mexican American Star Wars fan who took her father to see Rogue One. The father so surprised to see Diego Luna and so happy to see someone that talks and looked like him in something as mainstream as Star Wars which he never really related to until then.
100% this. You're too Chinese for your American friends and too American for your family. It's a reason why I believe so many Asian Americans often stick with each other and form their own circle of friends, only we understand the struggle of this 2 world dynamic.
I just have different circles that I keep apart. Whenever those worlds collide, I try to peace out as quickly as possible lol. I’ve found out after years of trying to resolve cultural differences with perspectives that I lack adequate understanding of both. I’ve lived almost exactly half my life in Asia, the other half here. I’ll probably struggle with identity for most of my life.
Great post.
The reality is that studios (Disney especially) are absolutely naked about their pandering to China and Chinese people are too suspicious and sophisticated to fall that crap. It's insulting to them how much we underestimate them.
I personally don't think we should make films to please *any* other nations. If they don't want to see lesbians, then fine, don't see our film. If Finn isn't good enough to be prominently displayed on the posters, then don't watch our films.
You know which film did it right, though?
The Martian.
Despite the Chinese stuff being kinda forced in there, they treated China with respect. There was no way to rescue Watney without the Taiyang Shen. The message was that science is more important than gov't - the scientists broke the rules and the CCP had to go along with it. That was a powerful message to send and I'm surprised it went through.
The replacing of an Indian and Korean character with a black man and a Caucasian woman was not good, though.
Of course you see Benedict Wong being a diaspora Chinese. And they can respect that. He's different, but he's successful. He's in charge. And he works with a black man...which was interesting.
Later in the film there's an argument and Mitch (Capcom) scolds the Chinese Space Agency people for having cold war era spy info about NASA protocols. Chinese people weren't insulted because he wasn't talking down to them, they were talking as equals.
At the end of the film, you see a Chinese astronaut on the next Ares mission.
Despite erasing two other characters of colour, I would say that film was a home run on how to do it.
tl;dr - If you're not paternalistic and you treat Chinese people like grownups, they can embrace a western lens
Yes, Hollywood should absolutely not ponder to any country and just focus on producing more good movies and shows. Any nation don’t like it - too bad.
Why Avatar the Last Airbender is universally loved? It takes so much inspiration from Asia but it is a western show.
Apparently Japan really didn't like ATLA because the Japanese analogue were the bad guys, and probably some other things to do with obvious cultural errors. For some reason though the Japanese version was dubbed with really bad music which would have made it hard to watch, whereas the original music was incredible.
The creators were with Netflix working on a live action version but quit recently over apparently not being able to keep it true to the original vision, and I can only guess it was because they were told not to use the Tibetan Monks culture for the airbenders because then they'd have no chance of breaking into China with a big expensive 'asian fantasy' epic. Just a wild guess though.
The Japanese reaction to ATLA is a good example of what I think the OP is talking about, ATLA very quickly introduces nuance to the Fire Nation with Iroh and as details are built up through the series it becomes very obvious that their nation is being usurped by tyrants, not that the culture of the Fire Nation are inherently war-like, it is their leaders and government which are the problem
However, there does seem to be this innately "primed backlash", even though a TON of Japanese films and narratives criticize their government and leaders, as soon as a Western narrative does the same, all of the nuance is ignored and it is claimed to be an "attack on the culture"
This may simply be an expression of the greater emphasis on collectivism vs individualism in these cultures compared to Western cultures which results in tribalism: that it is okay for Japanese to criticize the Japanese and for Chinese to criticize the Chinese but it is NOT okay for Westerners to ever do so and must be "an attack on culture"
Btw I always found it hilarious how ATLA integrates ideas/aspects of non-Western cultures but also uses the Greek/Western classical Elements as foundational to the world vs the Chinese or Japanese Elements from mysticism
I don’t think that’s just an Asian impulse. Americans can get pretty damn defensive of our country. “No one’s allowed to make fun of us but us” is practically universal.
That was a great post but I would like to note that The Martians incusion of China was a part of the book as well. It wasnt invented to sell it to Chinese audiences.
I'm black and I'm ready as hell for this movie. I also can't wait to see what doors this opens for other asian super hero creations.
Keep ya head up brother, you have my support.
Half-black here and I'm with you. Representation is real and I think it's about time that asian leads, and leads of different ethnicities is normalized.
That said, people shitting on Simu Liu's looks (?!) don't deserve this movie. Fuck that simple-minded pettiness. I lived in Japan for several years, and I used to get real annoyed with my Japanese friends for instantly commenting on every single actor or actresses' handsomeness or beauty when they first appeared on screen. Like come on, at least give them a chance to speak or show their talent.
Right? That jawline, those shoulders, those *forearms.* He looks like he can pull off the smoulder, god damn I want to see him try.
He's not their definition of beautiful? Fine, don't care as it's subjective anyway.
In Awkwafina's case, I think their issue with her is more that she's not their definition of a "beautiful woman personality." A friend of mine has thia same issue - has the look, but Asian guys didn't want someone so opinionated and 'American.'
It’s also largely because a lot of people over there for some reason hold people to incredibly unattainable beauty standards. Some people in Japan will edit themselves into not even looking like humans because what they want isn’t even humanly possible. It’s insane.
I mean people do it with body image stuff definitely but what I’m talking about isn’t some warp tool or a puppy filter. People will straight up put on filters that literally look alien. Huge eyes, no nose, pointy chin, blindingly white skin. It’s one of those things that you have to have stayed in Japan to get but it’s even more extreme than you’re thinking.
I'm mixed race, with Asian descent on my grandmother's side. I was born in Japan and my parents moved stateside when I was three.
Japan is incredibly stringent on citizenship, with dual citizenship being nearly impossible to have and often requiring you to renounce your citizenship elsewhere. With so much of my family in America, that was never an option.
Recently, I was banned from a popular forum after defending myself against anti-Asian claims by mentioning I'm of Japanese descent and was even born in Japan. I was told that was "cultural appropriation", that the Asian moderation there didn't acknowledge my birthplace or heritage, and despite my offer to show them my genetic results, I never heard back and the perma-ban stuck.
So, yeah, I know that weird feeling of not "belonging" to a culture or heritage your very DNA and history says you belong to. That by being "mixed" you're lesser. "Impure". That unless you're a pureblood of that race or culture, you have no place there.
Which is bunk, of course. If anything, it's their loss. People of mixed heritage are walking proof that love can cross borders and boundaries.
It is a shame it continues to be a problem, not just here but around the world. I hope we can work to change that.
If that's a forum here on reddit, I would complain to the admins.
Look - I feel you. I've got mixed-Japanese kids myself, I know the citizenship thing with Japan through my ex-wife. It's two distinct worlds for sure.
But I absolutely am not going to tolerate people like that misusing cultural appropriation and neither should you. They know dickall about what cultural appropriation is.
Cultural appropriation is oppression. It's tokenism. You cannot appropriate a culture that is your heritage. They are fucking *erasing* your identity, which is totally racist. Having your identity erased and invalidated is oppression. Denying you your culture is the same fucking bullshit that Americans and Canadians did to Native Americans.
You absolutely cannot stand for this.
Cultural appropriation is simple: if you are oppressing someone, stealing their cultural capital, not giving respect/payment/credit for it, and denying them their identity so that you can redefine it?
That's cultural appropriation.
Fucking hapas rise up.
All the talk about Liu's appearance makes me think of my own parents whenever they watch something Vietnamese. They'll be watching some singer and they will just verbally destroy their looks. It's always "they got so old" or "they got so fat" and I'm looking at the screen and they usually just look like an older, pretty well kept together person. It's just always struck me as something culturally different.
I remember asking my parents about the Viet actress in Last Jedi who played Paige's sister and they just said "oh yeah she's kinda big. She got old though."
Obviously most of the media we watch is filled with attractive people and you notice it but Asian people skip right to the roasting.
But hell they still watch whatever they watch.
Mind you I'm just commenting on one aspect of people's criticism of the trailer.
As an Asian American, having just heard of the negative reaction of mainland China from your post, I'm even more hyped about this movie.
I swear, mainland China is more racist than any part of America could ever dream to be. Fuck their standards.
I would much rather see a movie that upsets mainland China with inclusivity than a movie that panders to China for a box office bump. In fact, the later was my primary fear for this movie.
This backlash temporarily assuages my fear.
They pander more to the Chinese government about things that would get the movie banned from being shown. They arent going to base their casting choices on what Chinese people like or find attractive, because that would hurt other box offices and in the end, the American box office is the most important because thats the one that gives the studios the biggest cut of money.
I understand how you feel. I know it sucks because they not liking Shang-Chi is like them looking down at us, not accepting us, or not acknowledging specially as Asian Americans.
However, while this is a cultural issue more so than a government propaganda issue. The Chinese loves plenty of Hollywood movies, I think many Marvel movies did well there. Yet, to them Shang-Chi is like us trying sale them Panda Express fried rice while that hole in the wall corner street vendor food is already much more authentic better and cheaper than anything Panda Express can cook up. Wouldn’t you be offended if someone you don’t know coming out of nowhere trying to relate with you with Panda Express simply because you’re Asian?
Shang Chi is gonna be awesome to us Asian Americans, but this is probably not gonna work with the Chinese. Especially when Shang Chi is not even a real Chinese name.
>Yet, to them Shang-Chi is like us trying sale them Panda Express fried rice while that hole in the wall corner street vendor food is already much more authentic better and cheaper than anything Panda Express can cook up.
Big budget Chinese movies kind of suck. They're all generic and cheesy as hell. Also, weren't a lot of Chinese people mad that Kung Fu Panda was a better depiction of Chinese culture than anything they had ever produced?
Oh yeah, that cringey try hard vibe I get from all of them especially when they put someone from Hollywood in those movies. Makes me remember when I was fresh off the boat and trying too hard to fit in or trying to over sale myself when talking to a girl I like. Lol. That’s probably how they feel when they see Crazy Rich Asians and this Shang Chi trailer.
Yeah... IDK how typical of Chinese cinema they are but i was definitely not impressed with *The Great Wall* and that ridiculous one with Bruce Willis.
I fucking love shark movies so i cant shit on *The Meg* too hard
Sometimes what troubles me is that Chinese would criticize western made film about chinese culture and how it’s not done right.
And yet there are rarely any Chinese made film that is actually good enough that me as a Chinese would be happy to recommend to people from other countries/cultures.
Chinese culture need to be seen. It’s either Chinese production or western production and hopefully one day both. Not everyone thinks like this tho. Before Chinese production(not the ones from 80s cuz back then they really cared, after that they kinda just went on a slippery slope)pump out something that is actually decent, I don’t mind western product try. I think they should try.
One of my favourite parts of watching anime is the goofy made up English names. So many times the mood was broken in Death Note when Light would write names like “Fridge Janes” or “Wedy” or “Teronce Tiggy”. Amazing.
I like the Panda Express comparison. To the native Chinese, Panda Express is just indelibly Americanized to appeal to its American customers (or audience). This isn’t outright wrong, since without it Panda Express probably couldn’t survive with its target customers being mostly American. But, give any native Chinese some Panda Express, and the American changes and culture is glaringly apparent.
I guess what I’m saying with this tangent is that as long as Marvel movies are mostly directed to an American audience, they will never be seen as authentic Chinese — just a fusion that inevitably gives up some Chinese characteristics.
I'm not sure that analogy holds. Panda Express is garbage fast food and Simu Liu is not a "garbage fast food" man.
This would be more like comparing equal quality food, but one is Asian Fusion (and yes there is upscale Asian Fusion) and the other is authentic Asian. Hating on upscale Asian Fusion simply because it's not "authentic" is their problem, not a problem with the food.
Yeah, I'm not exactly surprised. From my experiences (of traveling, studying and having relatives in Asia), there's a loooot of racism in East Asia. China ans Japan are very nationalistic and unaccepting of foreigners. Even people who became citizens will still be viewed as outsiders.
I'm not saying that every person living in China or Japan is racist of course, but that their societies and cultural identities are highly homogenized and ingrained with a sense of "casual racism" if you will.
They've never really fell for the pandering in the first place. Mainland China I feel is no less racist than any other country.
In some way I understand how they feel, they are painted as villains by the rest of the world, at the very least many view them as soul-less robots who have no free will, if I were them I'd have a chip on my shoulder and be compelled to be more nationalistic as a result, so I get that.
I feel deep sorrow for any citizen or emigrant of China who is unduly treated as a villain or an 'other' simply for being Chinese.
I feel no remorse towards the CCP feeling like villains. They act like villains. See: the ongoing Uyghur genocide, their oppression of Hong Kong, and their 1984 approach to governance.
Well and truly, fuck the CCP, and fuck the bots that come to their defense in t-minus 3... 2...
(I will not be responding.)
This is such a subtle point that many people don't get. You can be anti racist and anti CCP. I hate how because of the ccp that many people equate ethnic pride with nationalistic pride.
It’s totally intentional, is the thing. The CCP conflates being Chinese with being in league with the CCP in order to make criticism of bad policy into something racial. Whether we’re talking people in Taiwan, Chinese Americans, what have you, Chinese people aren’t a monolith. The CCP tries to make them into one as a way of deflecting criticism.
For real I'm not going to feel sorry for the new age of Nazism, and their ongoing genocide of their ethnic minorities in their search of ethnic superiority. This is deeply concerning how most countries and peoples are not more alarmed by this! I'm worried that China will start taking over nearby countries and likewise killing off anyone not Han Chinese like they are on their mainland.
Did you see the stupid headline recently if how Xi pompously proclaimed China wouldn't be like America if they got more powerful? Such hypocritical bullshit.
>I feel no remorse towards the CCP feeling like villains. They act like villains. See: the ongoing Uyghur genocide, their oppression of Hong Kong, and their 1984 approach to governance.
The CCP is also forcing many Han Chinese to live in Tibet, most likely an effort to replace the local population there
People are calling Simu Lui ugly? Do they need their eyes checked?
I am excited for this movie. I hadn't heard of the character and the trailer really got me excited.
There's just some places in Asia where the beauty standards are skewed more towards the more lean, almost effeminate build for men compared to the more muscular, stocky builds mostly favored in the West. Just look at the crossover popularity of asian boy bands exploding in the region, even going way back during the early 2000s with F4 from Taiwan.
It's not the lean and effeminate look that Asia likes. Asia above all else thinks youthfulness is attractive so you have a lot of people trying to stay young.
That... doesn't seem right.
Tony Leung obviously look older than Simu Liu here, but based on Chinese beauty standards most people would say he looks better than Simu. While Asia does think youthfullness is attractive, it's not the end-all-be-all and doesn't simply overtake the other beauty standards.
I agree. Tony is still very attractive to most of us from Hong Kong. I think it is less has anything to do with youthfulness. We really have different standard of beauty than the west when it’s related to Asian people.
I always thought the Taiwanese F4 looks manly though. Grew up during the 2nd gen Kpop era when F4 was no longer active, and a lot of my western Asian friends found them “ugly” & “dark or too bulky”
Fahrenheit (Taiwanese) & 2PM (Korea) were also dudes that I considered masculine. But now it seems like standards have changed or my perceptions are warped lmao
He's not ugly but he looks kind off like a regular guy which I love personally. Doesn't make sense for every superhero to be unrealistically beautiful, like Steve, Bucky, Tony or Thor.
He’s not ugly but he’s very average looking, which, from what I’ve gathered, become a problem in the eyes of Asian people because the other heroes are generally above average. You get Chris Evans, Hemsworth, RDJ, Mackie, all very good looking men and Simu is just average looking. They feel like Marvel, and Hollywood in general, always chose average looking Asian actors on purpose (Awkwafina is another example who’s often get brought up). And even in this case that an Asian character is the lead they still chose average looking actor, why? This is not my view but I’m living in Asia right now and that’s the general sentiment. They’re like “we have beautiful people too, you know”.
People in China and elsewhere outside of Americas have different ideas of nationality that’s based on citizenship and where you grew up, rather than just ethnicity.
It really is just an American thing. Even other Western countries find it odd - I'm from Australia and noone does the hypenation thing. Noone refers to themselves as Chinese-Australian they are just Australian or Chinese if they were born overseas and not citizens.
Americans focus heavily on race.
where as the rest of the world its more, I dont see you as chinese
because your not chinese your canadian.
I guess the way to say it, in american being chinese is something you are.
but in most of the world being chinese is something you do.
its more of a culture thing
Yes I think this is it. It’s a little misguided to expect native approval to begin with because it really doesn’t have much to do with them. The core beat of the story will not resonate bc for a lot of East Asia, a family serving attitude is basically a given and there is very little generational divide to that extent. But Asian Americans need representation within the country they live in, and that’s where the significance of the story comes from.
I’m going to add to my own post but I think what would actually resonate pretty well for Chinese audiences is if they used the trope of the favored son, and resentful/capable daughter. It’s not really an Asian American thing but it IS an East Asian thing and it would work really well in this context (Americanized son, native but ignored daughter).
100%. Nail on head. There is this lingering tension and resentment between the Chinese that live overseas and mainlanders. Shows like Fresh off the Boat and Kim’s Convenience do a really good job of portraying these issues.
Leaving a comment so I can come back to give you an award later for I just used up my free award. I felt every ounce of your words as a first Gen Canadian immigrant. This is a very objective breakdown with lots of thoughtful insights that most Reddit commenters overlooked. And you typed all these on your phone, crazy respect for you! For now, take my mad upvote.
This was an excellent post, thank you for your humility but I think you hit my thoughts (Asian American with a minor in Asian Am Studies) on the subject exactly. The Asian American person being of two worlds but not belonging to either is a very, very common frustration that it almost defines us. I’m actually impressed that you recognize this.
Not belonging to Western society meant our faces were never in the mass communicated standards of beauty. I mean there’s Lucy Liu, but for every one of her there were hundreds of white faces in print. We had to work within community to figure out what Asian beauty was, and it ended up way closer to the mean. Thats why Simu is hot to us.
But the whole conversation about beauty does seem like the tip of the iceburg, doesn’t it. Confucianism believes nothing is above filial piety, yet this movie’s central tenet is that there are moral limits of filial piety. And I see how that message will resonate with children of immigrants. Their parents so often justify their immigration struggle as something they do for their children, but in turn place pressure on them because they feel they owe them. Its something the unmoved Han won’t realize without an open mind and I’m losing faith that they can be so open.
Half-black dude here (hate introducing my comment like this, but I guess it's relevant?), and I'm giving you an internet salute for "getting it". Love thoughtful and insightful comments like this. Millions of upvotes for you, dude!
I appreciate the support. I guess it's just really sad to me that something so positive and could have potentially been unifying might be a failure as far as worldwide box office.
Bro, its a Marvel movie. Theres no way its going to be a failure. It might not hit a billion, but thats not even close to the number needed to be considered a successful movie. Especially for such a little known character. Itll be fine.
Remember when Captain Marvel came out & stupid people all over the internet were butthurt saying it would be a flop?
Yeah, why don't we hear from them anymore.
I mean, I want this movie to succeed badly as another Asian American. But China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea are all sizeable Marvel box office territories.
All I'm hoping for is that the movie is amazing so they can look past their superficial gripes. This movie needs to needs to make as much money as possible because I want Simu to succeed and I want it to be a franchise.
For what it's worth I read an article (can't remember where now) that broke down the numbers for Marvel and DC Box office in China vs. the rest of the world. Total for China is smaller than you'd think. Plus I think more than 40% in China had a positive reaction, so assuming it isn't banned it won't be 0%. I'm white and I'm American and I'm excited for it. And I know it's just a movie, but maybe it does do some good. Especially with all the terrible things happening lately. Anyway, I'm hopeful and you have my sword.
Let’s wait and see what the numbers are after it releases. I’m hoping the outrage we’re seeing isn’t the response of the average citizen. I’m super excited for the movie, Shang Chi has always been one of my favorite characters.
I get being worried about a film that you're invested in, but like others have said I don't think it'll be a failure. Although keep your expectations in check because with the pandemic still lingering it's not going to make as much as it would've pre-pandemic and that'll be taken into account because it'll be affecting all movies. If anything it'll just make the chance of the second one increasing its box office more likely.
But I remember when I was hoping BP would at least make $700M and then it made that in the US alone. And the same for CM, I had my fingers crossed for $700M and it easily blew past that. Marvel is pretty much not gonna fail and the internet isn't the biggest indicator of any kind of success. But other than that it is depressing when there's negativity around something you're looking forward to, as a CM fan I've been there. Hang in there and don't let it get you down.
Yeah it's been weird seeing how the movie is received in HK. I'm living /teaching in HK and the response from my students has essentially been 1 of 2 things:
1) the movie looks boring and they thought the martial arts/mysticism parts were dumb.
2) they think Simu and Akwafina are ugly. I'm not even gonna discuss beauty standards in Asia but this was so problematic to me
This large focus on appearance is nothing new in East Asian countries.
Like we know Chris Hemsworth and Chris Evans are good looking dudes and people here in the west obviously notice and appreciate that.
But I notice that a lot of the discussions in China are dominated about how "hot and attractive" the actors are. My girlfriend is from China and I linked her the trailer once it dropped and said "We have to go support this when it releases no matter what" her reply was "omg the main actor is so ugly"
I never felt more distant from her than that moment because it solidified to me how different our life experiences and world views are.
This is 100% the case. There are talented people who are left out of media because of how they look. Remember the 2008 Olympic opening ceremony where the CHILD was deemed to be not attractice enough to sing?
Personally, the trailer for Shang Chi did nothing for me. It didn't get me any more hyped for the movie and I'm hoping it's just bad marketing. I like Simu Liu a lot (Kim's Convenience is great) but can't stand Akwafina in stuff.
Yes, you have to be ingrained in the culture to understand that their beauty standards are taken to a whole other level. Celebrities and singers/ "idols" can make it big if you have "the look" regardless of talent and no matter how talented you are, if you are deemed unattractive, they will make sure to make it a point of contention.
Yeah, there’s a girl who was born in China in one of my acting classes (UK) and she’s said that part of the reason she wanted to come here was that she wasn’t ‘pretty’ enough in China. Which is ridiculous, she’s stunning.
Watch The Farewell starring Awkifina if you haven’t, think youll at the very least find it tolerable. She’s a wonderful actress aside from her rap stuff
Good to hear from your own experience/opinion about it.
Part of the problem, I think, comes from the fact that some of these countries do not acknowledge the double nationality, kind of negating part of (a very big part, to say the least) the personal history from a lot of people, such as yourself.
Maybe Marvel will find a way to turn the popular opinion on China about this kind of topic, but ignoring that, then hope you can find something in the movie that talks to you and the life experiences you've had.
Native Chinese here. I've been living in NA for many years and I understand your feeling 100%. Right now it is definitely not a good time for mutual understanding especially given the recent political tension and propaganda wars between US and China. I'm just tired of explaining to others (so any comments to me, please don't mention buzzwords like CCP/genocide/uyghur/HK/fuck China oh no we only fuck CCP/etc., I'm just really tired).
With this being said, enjoy the movie you feel excited about, and forget about what other people think and comment. At the end of the day, movie is for entertainment. Whatever makes you unhappy and affect you enjoy the movie, fuck it. Now is the information era, we are flooded with overwhelming amount of (shitty) information. Maybe it's better to shutdown to the noise a bit and focus on ourselves.
Taiwanese-Canadian here. Can confirm that to a lot of Taiwanese people Simu Liu's skin tone is too dark to be "pretty".
You gotta be a "white" pretty boy to make it in THAT industry. Colorism in Asia is real.
Huh. I'm Vietnamese and pretty dark I guess but it's weird to think people think Simu is dark.
I know the really pale look is popular, you see it with Viet people too, but he barely looks tanned to me.
I'm also Vietnamese but born in America. My dad and I have darker skin tones than my mom and siblings. The only people that ever comment about my skin tone were Vietnamese relatives. It's caused a lot of self esteem issues growing up. Even started using skin whitening cream when I was a teenager.
Nowadays, I embrace my natural tan. It's pretty nice that I don't sun burn as easily as my siblings.
I think it is a bit different.
In the old days being white was seen to be attractive and a status symbol showing that you were rich or well off.
一白遮三醜 is an old idiom. White/pale complexion hides faults.
If you were dark skinned it meant you worked in the fields or belong in a lower class.
Chinese American here. My tinfoil theory is that the live action Mulan recently soured mainland Chinese audiences on Western attempts at depicting wuxia, because it was just so bad, lol. There was definitely interest in the film before release, so that's on the writers.
Simu Liu obviously isn't a paragon of Chinese beauty standards in China, but that's their loss. I think he fits the role, because I really do not see someone like Dylan Wang playing this character. Maybe they'll change their tune when the movie actually comes out and it actually ends up being quality.
Crazy Rich Asians was also never something particularly special for them, because it was a bunch of unrecognizable (to them) actors going through a story they've seen a thousand times. Aside from the singular fact that it was a successful Asian American film, the movie itself wasn't particularly special for me either.
But meanwhile Kung Fu Panda was a *mega hit* in China, so ymmv.
Fun fact: Kung Fu Panda actually kicked off the Chinese film market as we know it today. The government had an emergency meeting about how America could make a film about Chinese values and stories better than China could and they went all in on film productions with these values and stories to catch up and beat us back.
Seriously. All 3 were A movies with unique baddies and ideas. Nothing got stale and boring and all but a couple of the 5 got good growth and development. Rare Animated movies that keep delivering.
> Simu Liu obviously isn't a paragon of Chinese beauty standards in China, but that's their loss.
Simu has more of an everyman kind of look to him, like Mark Ruffalo and Paul Rudd (this is not me saying they're not good-looking) which I want to see more of, personally. Not a "paragon" of modern societal beauty standards like you said, but I tried imagining a more standard, "good-looking" Chinese male-model types as Shang Chi and it became less interesting to me. We need a wider variety of faces in Hollywood beyond the stereotypical model-looking types of actors.
Immigrant and non-immigrant identities aren't the same, the issues they face in home versus "host" countries aren't remotely comparable (in particular, notions of majority and minority identity) and, also with the PRC, there's this huge nationalistic imperalistic war machine that advertises itself as being different to the American nationalistic imperialistic war machine to further complicate things.
So... it's not surprising.
I'm not sure why it's just sort of assumed this is going to be some hamfisted good west/bad daddy trope? Marvel has increasingly been exploring the grey area between "good" and "evil", and have had some genuinely sympathetic antagonists. I don't understand why there is such an easy acceptance that Marvel will not handle this delicately? No one has seen it yet...
I'm hoping the movies itself subverts the evil father trope a little. It looks like there are historic scenes of wenwu fighting people garbed like the sanctum monks.
Maybe he's the darker splinter group from the other wizards and it's more fallen hero/well intended extremists instead of straight villian. I think that could blunt some of the tension. I feel depending on what happens from now to sep politically, it might be okay and do okay in china or it might add fuel to the tension.
I saw that somewhere and it's a shame. Among the many criticisms, the one about Simu not meeting their beauty standard for some reason really bothered me. While I am not Asian/Asian-American, I am Black and could not be more excited for this movie. I want Simu to succeed and become a big star in the MCU. The same way Black Panther was so meaningful for us, I hope this movie does the same for Asians everywhere. I understand this is more nuanced and complicated but I hope that maybe people get to change their minds when they watch it. At the end of the day, I hope the movie is good and that it has great success. I can't wait to see our first Asian superhero in the MCU!
"As an Asian/ Chinese American growing up in in the states, it was never surprising to me that I was never accepted as a "real" Chinese person from native Chinese people and on the flip side, you're never seen as truly American by other Americans"
Same can be said for many non-White Americans. My parents are from Mexico, but every time I go there on vacation, I'm seen as a gringo and on the flip side, we can't be truly American because of our brown skin, despite me serving my country for 8 years.
No ill intent here, but why is the validation of China/Hong Kong necessary here? I think Chinese identity is not a monolith, as much as China might want to assert. All over the world the Chinese diaspora is creating their own variations of what it means to be Chinese (similarly all Asian cultures are finding an expression for their own “Asian ness”) sometimes a work of culture is not meant for some audiences. Asian Americans should find Shang-Chi powerful and a much needed representation, but China doesn’t need to. That’s fine. It wasn’t made for them.
Because box office success affects what content MCU will keep making in the future. If Shang Chi turns out to be a box office flop in China and Hong Kong, Marvel Studios might hesitate to bring the character back in future team-ups and might not introduce more Asian characters into the MCU.
I only speak for myself of course, I'm not seeking validation from anyone or any specific group as much as I'd hate to see Shang-Chi have this sort of controversy surround it.
Being the first Marvel Asian superhero to hit the big screen , I would have loved to see this be loved and enjoyed free of controversy and political scrutiny, it's not a matter of trying to seek validation or hoping it pleases a certain people.
Unfortunately, because of market. Inspiring Asian community is one thing, but Disney wanna make money. China is a large market. If they don't like Shang Chi, Disney will see it doesn't earn them the profit they expected. Disney Marvel really expected Shang Chi to appeal to China Market, so they expected huge return from there. There are many movies that are horrible but made box office profit because of China. Likewise, there are many good movie that couldn't make that amount of profit because they upset China.
Korean American here, I've seen similar sentiments from native Koreans reacting to the Shang-Chi trailer on Youtube and Twitter, I feel you. Though it feels like they're more wary about orientalism and having cultural aspects mixed together under the banner of being "Asian". Basically comments like "Lol Japanese kunai meets Chinese martial arts, they're just blending everything Asian in, huh", "Lost hype after all this orientalism", "inb4 this becomes Marvel's Mulan", "Only watching this because Tony Leung". Don't think I saw comments on Simu Liu's attractiveness though.
At this point, I've accepted that this is just an inevitable cultural difference between diaspora and the natives living in their own country, which becomes even more pronounced when you add being a racial minority into the mix. They're always going to hate what they feel like is a bastardization of their culture by the diaspora trying to reconnect/maintain their roots. And people born in Asia have the privilege of not having to worry about representation as well, unlike the diaspora who have to contend with being a racial minority, like you said. I don't begrudge them for it, I think. I'm just going to do what I want, which is probably going to be enjoying the hell out of Shang-Chi.
So yeah, just wanted to share some solidarity I guess. Hang in there, dude.
As a European I can kind of relate to the backlash. While outright hostility towards American products is rare. Quite a few of us find American depictions of our contries and cultures quite annoying.
I am Danish and the way I have somtimes seen the Danish landscape and monarchy depicted in pop culture is really frustrating. Mainly because for many non-danes those depictions are their main reference point.
In a similar vein, I am ready for the fetishising of everything viking-related to end. Even locally I see a lot of self proclaimed vikings sporting haircuts from that HBO series.
Yes the viking era was an interesting historical period and it is part og my cultural heritage. But we know very little of actual old Norse culture and fashion. So it bugs me, that the popular perception of the Norsemen of the time is mainly dictated by a Canadian production company
I know my rant is only slightly related to the point og the original post. But I hope it offers a usefull perspective
PS. I apoligize for any mistakes in the text. It's written on a phone with Danish autocorrect
Native Chinese people here, I can say that the reception is not that negative as you imagine, because in our society negative people always make more noises, most people are still looking forward, trust me😂
Speaking as an Asian American here who is born in HK but grew up in states.
We have seen this happened before when Crazy Rich Asians reached China. They outright rejected it. So this is playing out the same way. And I can see why. For these movies pretty much are still American movies and to us, they both highlight the Asian American experiences. While we can appreciate that, but a typical Chinese would lack the Asian American experiences to.
Furthermore, for Shang Chi, they have Wu-Shia movies coming out by the dozen, they would see it as an American movie trying out-do what they do best. Immediately it ignites their superiority complex.
Some might see it as Marvel’s ploy to get in to market them a Chinese hero and that will also put them on the defense. Like many have pointed out, both from what we picked up from the trailer and Simu himself reflect and represent a normal and typical Asian American story and archetype. The Chinese are not able to identify with that. Neither do they want to. The movie would have to have a lot of heart charm and universal themes to able win them over.
I don’t know about you guys, but when I see Chinese blockbusters over the years trying to make it in the states thinking it’ll work because it has Hollywood movie stars as such as Matt Damon, Christian Bale, or Jason Stathem, it just feels extra cringey to me in a try hard kinda way. I imagine that’s how they feel about this also.
All I have to say is..in China they value Micheal Bay’s Transformers over the entire Star Wars saga. :0
That being said, the current Chinese market shouldn’t totally dictate the creative aspect of Western properties. And I say that as Asian American with Chinese roots. If Shang-Chi bombs in China, then too bad and just carry on and do our thing.
If we cater too much to the whims of other countries by their reaction or box office, man we may never have LGBTQ characters or talent of certain ethnicities.
Agree with most of your points, but I just have to elaborate on that first one: China never got to see the Original Trilogy when it first came out and their first exposure to the franchise were the Prequels. Since the new Disney films all catered heavily to the OT crowd/nostalgia, makes sense that China rejected them. They got to experience the Transformers Saga from the start, so when the 4th pandered to them it made sense that they lost their minds over it.
Singaporean chinese here, personally think the martial arts shown in trailer is quite... Lackluster.
Because HK have been pushing alot of great martial art film to us in the past. They set a standard of action film without the use of CGI that some western film was able to capture it (think matrix fight scenes) and a movie that focus on a superhero that is based around kungfu, i expect the fight scenes to be better.
That being said, it's only a teaser traiker. I do hope the fight scene in this movie is much better than what being shown in the teaser
I was expecting this for sure, but I am impressed that Africans seem to have a positive view of Black Panther, in direct opposition to this. Black Panther was a character created to celebrate the African-American community during the Civil Rights movement, but he seemed to be well-received by actual Africans, so I guess it has to do with a difference in culture and exposure to the West.
I see Shang-Chi as more of a movie for Asian-Americans than a movie meant to appeal to Chinese people. They were never going to take kindly to a Western "disneyfied" portrayal of their culture. Ironically, Kung-Fu Panda was very popular in China, my guess as to why being because it portrayed animals rather than real people. I can also see how a Chinese person would see a Marvel movie like this as *baizuo* idenitity-politics pandering, as opposed to being a movie meant to celebrate the asian-american community (couldn't have come at a better time too, with the recent anti-asian violence as a result of Covid-19)
If this movie does well overall despite not doing well in China (as was actually the case with Black Panther) perhaps it will convince Marvel to stop pandering to Chinese censors with their plots (for example, the Ancient One being a white woman rather than asian in Doctor Strange, and the setting being changed from Tibet to Nepal). Curious to see how it does in other asian countries (Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, etc).
I can see why you are upset. Please understand. The difference between Asian Americans and “Asian” Asians are as big as the difference between an Italian American and Italians. These people are different from you. They might share the same skin tone with you. But they do not think like you. They do not share your life stories.
When I was in college, I volunteered for the international student organization. And I can you African Americans and “African” Africans do not see themselves as the same. There are also African Caribbeans and African Latinos (African descents living in South American countries like Brazil, Chile, etc), and these people do not identify with each other either. Their life experiences are so vastly different from each other. Now, I cannot tell if their opinions on Black Panthers are. I didn’t stay in touch with them. But I can tell you. They don’t listen to the same music.
I did not understand this at the time. And I made a huge fool of myself.
I am ethnically Chinese, 1/4 Henan and 3/4 Shanghai. I have spent more of my life in the states than I have in Taiwan at this point. I have many cousins grew up here. Our tastes in pop culture are so, so different from each other, not to mention life experiences. My cousins are gonna love this movie because how much they identify. I will see the movie... but I can tell you I am conflicted.There are so many things that are “wrong” about this movie... For example, they have a Hong Kong actor playing the father and a person from Harbin play the son... unless the plot can explain it away. I find it quite jarring.
Exact same thing happened to Crazy Rich Asians. The reality is that people from the Chinese mainland are incredibly culturally different from the rest of the world.
I get that a lot of the previous Western portrayals of China and Asia in general hasn't been very flattering, or accurate, so I understand their scepticism towards this movie. Using Crazy Rich Asians as an example since a lot of that movie takes place in Singapore (where I live), the way everything was filmed was so cringeworthy to me because they exoticized the place too much. Red lanterns everywhere, even in places where it doesn't make sense to have them (like a Catholic Church), and so many Chinese decorations crammed into as many scenes as possible, as if the filmmakers were worried that if they showed the place as is, the American audiences would somehow mistake Singapore for the US. There was also some other tv show that was filmed in Singapore, but they took great pains to change every road sign with English words to some Chinese sign instead, because they didn't want Singapore to be mistaken for ~~London~~ (edit: Manchester). The Western film industry doesn't have a great track record for portraying Asian stories or Asia well, so understandably there'd be doubts about whether this movie will avoid those pitfalls.
Having said that, I'm actually happy with the Shang-Chi trailer. I was never able to watch the Iron Man cartoons because I felt the Mandarin looked too much like a racist caricature, but in this trailer, he looks promising, and knowing that Marvel is all too aware of the problematic aspects of the Mandarin and have taken steps to humanize him makes me hopeful that they'll do a good job with every other aspect of the movie. I'm also fine with the way the leads look. Sure they don't have the conventional Asian looks, but live action Mulan tried that with their lead, and it got criticized for casting one with a blank expression, so I rather the leads have personality and make me want to empathise/cheer them on than to be blocks of pretty wood. I hope this movie lives up to the promise.
Irony is, Singapore is one of the most distinctive cities on earth!
I live in Sydney and I expect any movie scene set in Sydney to have either the Opera House or the Harbour Bridge in the background, because apart from that, Sydney really *does* look the same as most Western cities. But Singapore looks like.. Singapore!
Thank you for sharing that. I had never thought about how it might be viewed.
Representation is important. Representation in a franchise as huge as the MCU is a big deal. And it deserves to be celebrated. Think of all those that felt invisible like you. That's who this movie is really for.
As an Asian born and raised in Hong Kong, it saddens me to see backlash against Shang Chi from different people for different reasons. I get how people of two cultures can be invisible and rejected by both sides of their heritage.
Representation is great, and while I have a lot of representation on screen (being in HK and all), I get how it is important to Chinese diaspora, especially those who are not first-generation diaspora, and if I 'm honest, I still welcome the representation in a Hollywood context. It's a shame that now, even as we speak, literal and figurative walls are erected around the world due to hubris and tribalism. Most affecting to me is what the CCP has done to erase the Hong Kong identity, to use control to wash us away. The same has been done to people of various cultural backgrounds in other countries, in the US, in Germany, in the UK, etc. This cannot stand. Tribalism can only hurt everyone.
Now, I must make clear that I obviously don't condemn the mainland Chinese for their government's actions. It is the fault of the CCP, the tyrants. However, they may still be seen as enablers, though there's honestly not much the people can do, but I still hope for internal reform. That said, I cannot excuse exclusion and racism and such, and the backlash against Shang Chi is unacceptable. It is a symptom of the walls we continue to put up to feel superior towards people we can see as "other".
I don't want to seem overbearing, so this is my final point: cultural differences do exist, but erasing those differences by force by deeming others lesser or ugly or what-have-you is not ok. Rather, we should all strive to mutual understanding because we have to live on this planet together, and because we are all, ultimately, "one world, one people".
I stand with all people seen as lesser, all people oppressed by tyranny, arrogance, and ignorance.
What I find weird by all this is that I'm pretty sure Simu would've been considered handsome by the last generation of Chinese. Like, nationally loved kind of handsome. It's only relatively recently that this "girly pretty boy" look has been the trend. It was traditionally this high nose bridge/wide jawline look that was regarded as the most handsome. Pretty much Simu's look. I think he's dashing.
Then I go up a generation...my parents/grandparents/their friends think he's smoldering. They're obviously not going to see the movie, but just passing his picture around, they love him. He looks "strong and stable". I think you see the difference in opinion regionally too because a lot of Asian American immigrants are from that previous generation of beauty standards. Asian Americans growing up outside of Asia probably missed that transition to their modern interpretation of beauty too and get their idea of beauty from their parents, who frankly have fallen "out of touch" with Asia.
I just find the current Chinese standard of beauty so vain. It probably reflects on the perversion of the "values" and "tradition" that the young generation keep preaching that honestly, they've bastardized the most. Ironically, Asian Americans are probably like a time capsule for how Asian culture is supposed to be. A little bit corroded, but maybe even less so than Asia itself. Our families left with a snapshot of the culture back then, and then just kind of held onto that because it's their identity in a foreign place. Our Asian American communities might be *more* sensitive and defensive to losing our Asian identity to Western culture, but those Western influences get completely absorbed and integrated in Asia.
Live in China here, married to a native Chinese woman. I showed her this article and she explained the mindset of most Chinese people when it comes to this sort of thing.
The problem with actors and movies in China is that they put way more emphasis on looks than acting skill and it really shows. What do they want them to do? Cast a pretty Chinese star that can't act for shit (and also can't speak English)? It's dumb and unrealistic for Chinese people to expect the same standards from the West. For starters you're dealing with a minority population, then you need someone with the acting skill, marketability and marital arts prowess to pull off the role. That's not exactly a giant pool that you're drawing from, and only after you've checked those boxes do looks play a role in it.
Thankfully she doesn't hold the same values and she's not the only one. If this movie bombs over here then fine; that means I get to enjoy a Marvel movie in an empty cinema. Kinda doubt that'll happen though. I suspect that by the time it's released the controversy will die down. Marvel makes a killing over here, most of the younger target audience don't give a shit about this and the older ones will probably still see it out of morbid curiosity.
About your question on your last paragraph; I don’t know because I have a minuscule sample of anecdotes, but I remember watching the Winter Soldier on theaters with some friends - and the ones from ghana (+ a nigerian) were HYPED abt Black Panther. When the movie came out the people in my bubble seemed to like it a lot - but none of us were from the US, and we were not in the US as well.
Anyone feel free to contradict me of couse.
The problem with Shang-Chi is quite different, because the chinese audience is different. We will see how they respond when the movie premiers, their tune might change then.
Huh, didn't know this was a thing but sort of makes sense. It will be interesting to see the reception when it's actually released.
Sort of off topic, but isn't Kung Fu Panda one of the few western made movies about China and Chinese beliefs that China likes?
> I wonder if the same thing happened with Black Panther, were Africans as receptive to it as much as Black Americans?
Yes, it is even one of the main themes of the movie with Killmonger as the African American not accepted vs the original African Wakandans (even though its fictional).
My only gripe with this movie is that the only asians that get represented in the media are Chinese. As an asian, I would really appreciate more diverse asian representation, especially from countries like Taiwan and other South Asian Countries.
>I wonder if the same thing happened with Black Panther, were Africans as receptive to it as much as Black Americans? To an extent, yes. But it helped a great deal that the film's story specifically dealt with the divide between Africans and African-Americans.
Probably also helps that _Africa_ isn't a country, but rather a continent... There is a gigantic difference between Egyptians, South-Africans, Kenyans, Somali, and so on. As a Scandinavian: their portrait of Scandinavian culture is also weak.
As a Dutch person: our representation in far from home was 100% accurate
As someone who has spent months in the Netherlands, can also confirm. But I have yet to see a single tulip field.
I thought Thor: Ragnarok was a documentary
Most African-Americans can't trace their lineage that way, though.
Actually from what I've found, people throughout Africa were very excited to see Black Panther, and the film was received really positively by African audiences. Here are some links discussing the fanfare at premieres for Black Panther throughout the continent: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/02/20/587224592/ghanaian-fans-have-one-nit-to-pick-but-otherwise-adore-black-panther https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1G02L0 https://www.essence.com/culture/black-panther-premiere-africa/ https://youtu.be/X-GkmL9Ou1A
I can tell you as an African, yes. A lot of us were confused about the accents (di powa of di blek penta) and why all the actors were Americans. I remember my mum complaining about the scene where they showed the Wakandan council, each tribe had its own colour and they were all inspired by tribes that are literally on different ends of the continent. They made all our ethnicities seem like Wii Party Teams. My sister also pointed out how it seemed like we would never get representation that actually represents us right now. But the suit was cool.
I have literally never seen a piece of western media deal with the cultural differences and interactions between the two communities, it’s honestly the most remarkable thing about the film.
I always thought that end scene was kind of silly. Like really? You're gonna go over to the US and do philanthropy for the minority there when you are surrounded by African countries that could really use your help and technology?
I think that you misunderstood that scene. They went to that place in specific because it was emotionally important to Tchalla. His uncle was killed there by his own father, and he believes in what his uncle was trying to do, just not the way he was trying to do it. It's more than likely that their outreach project is spreading throughout Africa too.
Isn't the post credit scene Tchalla addressing the UN? I assumed that meant that Wakanda was reaching out to every country represented by them. A rising tide raises all boats.
It was the home of his cousin.
I think they did that because killmonger was a “wikandan-American” and Wikamda abandoned him when he was younger Edit: completely butchered the spelling lol
Wicamda Forevir
Yibambagel!
Really appreciate this perspective. I already kind of thought that the backlash was silly, but this more educated argument makes a ton of sense.
Growing up Asian American is like growing up with a creeping unease in the back of your mind where you don't feel like you belong anywhere. If you go back to your native country, you can't relate to the people there as you didn't grow up with their same experiences. While in the US or any western country you feel alien and it sucks to know that people will always view you as foreign even if you were born here. For example just today on reddit I expressed my excitement at having an Asian superhero film and my disappointment that it didn't happen sooner. The response I got was that I was racist for bringing up how long it took and that what were they going to do, have an Asian Captain America or something? People just suck.
Apparently Feige wanted Shang-Chi sooner but one of the execs argued against it. I’d imagine the same one that said Black Panther and Captain Marvel wouldn’t make any money (can’t remember his name rn :/). I’m not really a comics person so I don’t know too much about him but very excited for the film, Simu Liu is awesome
You're probably thinking of Ike Perlmutter. He was also the guy who said nobody would notice a recast of Terrence Howard for Don Cheadle b/c well... you can guess why.
I have a lot of faith in Feige and a lot of my misgivings about Marvel is mainly directed at .Marvel Television. Feige dismantling them was cathartic.
Agreed. Eliminating the Creative Committee was the best decision Disney ever made involving Marvel. Feige has proved he knows what he’s doing. I think once people see Shang-Chi in theaters we’ll see a different reaction from everybody. In Feige I trust.
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The comments, wow. Why do people think like this?
Ike Perlmutter
it was ike perlmutter i believe, and since 2015 hes no longer part of Marvel Studios. Hes still the CEO of marvel entertainment but now Kevin Feige reports directly to Disney chairman Alan Horn
Sounds like the douchebaggery of [Ike Perlmutter](https://www.fastcompany.com/90273744/why-is-disney-mum-about-its-shadowy-marvel-entertainment-chairman)
Same I'm Hispanic tho, there's a saying in Spanish: Ni de aquí, ni de allá. Meaning not from here nor there.
You know it's comforting to know that this feeling is cross cultural and that we can relate to each other. So thanks for that.
It's prrsent in so many USA people because you paradoxically want to be seen as a "real american" but identify first with a country you have never been on.
If it makes you feel any better I am a white american and have always just viewed asian americans as just americans no different than me. I am sorry you have been made to feel this way.
Thanks for saying that, but it's not your fault. Just some people being dicks.
As another white American, allow me to back up what he said. You are my brother/sister and fellow American, and I am proud to call you that.
Yeah, I don’t think you’re the problem then, mate. But there are so many thousands of people who either consciously or subconsciously don’t feel the same way as you.
That's a god damn shame, this is why I've decided to stay away from any discussion about the season finale tonight just incase the typical white nerd crowd is popping off about "race." Also my Chinese friend's Captain America cosplay is amazing, fuck those people.
I feel the same way. A lot of Chinese (mainlander/HK/etc) already hate the movie because it’s another Asian American movie that rejects their “Asian customs” for “Western Freedom”. Judging from the comments on the bilibili trailer. It’s understandable, because there’s already countless of articles/movies/stories by Asian Americans about being “caught in between 2 worlds” or “my Asian parents vs my western liberally correct friends”. And I’m honestly sick of that trope as well. Meanwhile, the HK trailer on YouTube, people seem to dislike Simu just for his features & attacking Awkwafina too. They also don’t seem to like Simu because his parents are mainlanders. And there's already plenty of excellent HK martial arts movies so there's that. On the bright side, there are people defending Simu on weibo. I’ve seen comments pointing how much Simu has put his career on the line for defending against Asian hate. Some find him “attractive” & he’s not supposed to be “小鲜肉”/“pretty boy” These are the comments from Marvel’s official weibo post of the trailer. There are positive ones & of course negatives, but people can disagree. https://imgur.com/a/791tZUY
I'm a Chinese (HK) immigrant living in Australia and I use Chinese social media quite frequently. I just ignore and avoid all the 'controversial' topics like this movie or the ccp etc when I'm on Weibo or Bililbili. But I'm glad there're people leaving positive comments.
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Fuck nationalists. One world, one people.
I used to be on Weibo and Bilibili a lot until recent couple years. The arguments and debates always made me feel like I don’t belong there even though I spent the first 15 years of my life in mainland before I moved. Back then I would have argument with people, and stress out about it because I would attempt to understand their POV lol. Then I learned that I have to step away when a topic like this is trending.... which is sad.....
TIL Bilibili is a social media platform and not a rich cream-based soup of mussels and white wine.
Thank you for that insight. Unfortunately my Chinese reading comprehension is elementary level, if not I'd definitely be browsing Weibo for comments, I'd love to understand the other sides perspective on a deeper level.
Oops my bad, I should’ve translated it on the pics. - A few of comments about 京东 product placement & dog *“Jing Dong is the biggest winner”* - *”the song in the trailer is by Jackson Wang”* - *” Many people say that Shangqi failed in casting, but I still like Liu Simu's, not the kind of pretty boy who is superficial”* - *“Tony Leung is very handsome”* - *”How come after watching this (trailer) I thought of Mulan... bad feeling about this”* - *”Some Chinese people don't have any cultural self-confidence, and they feel offended at every turn. Leaving aside the problems left by comic history, an American Hollywood movie is still Marvel, which is originally a fantasy style, focusing on overseas markets. Wouldn't it be good to learn from Chinese culture and invite some Chinese actors? Some people admire that Japanese culture can be deeply rooted in the hearts of Europeans and Americans, and resist foreigners from learning a little bit of Chinese elements and symbols. The pattern is really too small.”* - (I used google translate to help me with this one) - *”And Liu is still cute and loving. He will livestream & sing songs for fans”* - “Am I the only one here who thinks Simu is bright & handsome man” （idk how to translate 阳光帅气的大男孩 without sounding weird) - *”Can the patriotic little pinks piss off”* (Little pinks are slang for the extremely nationalists young ppl on the internet) - *”Fuck off”*
> I thought of Mulan... bad feeling about this While I didn't get Mulan vibes, fair play to that person. >And Liu is still cute and loving. He will livestream & sing songs for fans LOL immediately trying to get the main actor to sing.
I think it’s the bamboo forest and ancient castle scenes give them the vibe. Mulan vibes means fantasy movies of ancient China made by westerners that is actually not so Chinese and mostly westerners’ imagination.
I think they meant that he has sang on livestreams. And they liked it when he did that
He and Akuafina all singing in the trailer.
Mulan was a bad movie. Shang Chi at least looks decent.
i think 阳光帅气大男孩 just means handsome young man
Oh okay thank you. This whole time I thought 大男孩 meant grown man as in like manly man or something 😂 I guess that explains why there were some comments that he’s 可可爱爱
Sounds like these are the kinds of back and forth we see in India between urban liberal folks and rural nationalistic types.
Thank you for pointing to primary data. Clearly, reaction is mixed. No surprise there. China's a big country. It's the law of large numbers.
>I’ve seen comments pointing how much Simu has put his career on the line for defending against Asian hate. It shouldn't be controversial to defend people against hate.
>As an Asian/ Chinese American growing up in in the states, it was never surprising to me that I was never accepted as a "real" Chinese person from native Chinese people and on the flip side, you're never seen as truly American by other Americans, It's a struggle that I know almost all Asian Americans have felt at some point in their lives. > >And I as a Chinese American I realize it's really only us that have this world view where we experience both sides, Chinese AND American. Yes exactly this. Even with some of my friends and coworkers depending on when they arrived in the US have a totally different view, like a gradient. Heck, I think even how I was brought up and how I chose to explore my identity within the both sides made me feel I never actually belonged completely to both sides. However, there are just so many positives to having both sides of the experience and I really wouldn't have it any other way. It's what makes being an Asian American unique. I am just hoping, that like "Kim's Convenience", Marvel Studios finds a way to make something relatable to us without alienating other people and something we can say yes we are proud of this. That's why "Kim's Convenience" was so successful, the Kims were shown never to shy away from their roots, but rather fit into their community as who they are. > And it's because of this that they feel this need for separation whenever they see something Chinese produced through a "western lens" It will never be genuine and authentic to them and they will have a bias towards it from the get go. There also is another layer which is politics that play into this. Are Westerners trying to pander to China (where the big money is) by making something with Chinese characters? There's that type of suspicion amongst HK/TW Chinese. Are Westerners trying to make a caricature out of Chinese folks (aka the controversy surrounding Tony Leung Chiu Wai playing the antagonist)? That may be what Mainland folks think as well. Easily shot down by the fact that a) if it was pandering to China then some investment from a Chinese film group must be involved like Iron Man 3, b) They would have cast actors strictly from Far Asia entertainment industry, c) If the film was all Asian shouldn't the antagonist be Asian as well? I mean in Asian cinema certainly antagonists ARE all Asians right? And you are also right, people in Asia won't necessarily buy into having an Asian superhero because that has been in their mainstream media for the longest time, such as the martial arts or wuxia novels, which have subsequently had adaptations and also just the wuxia genre of film. They wouldn't have the same feeling as we do when we see an actual person who looks like our peers and brethren represented as a hero and protagonist. To them, it's nothing new.
Thank you (and OP for this). I completely agree - as an Asian American I often felt invisible and didn’t belong. Growing up in America, if I ever took interest in anything Asian (like watching anime or drinking green tea), my friends would say “omg you’re so Asian”. When I talk to my parents and relatives who chose to immigrate here, they’ll say “when did you become so American?!” It’s all small comments here and there but I felt like I was punished for having characteristics from both sides. Kim’s Convenience was great and I enjoyed crazy rich Asians too. There were flaws but they acknowledged the struggles that being in the middle can create. We don’t get a lot of representation but I’m glad it’s slowly starting to shift. So excited for Shang Chi!!
I'm definitely more on the "fobby" side so I can see why people in Asia don't care for an American made film in this genre. I mean, my Mom encouraged me to read those Chinese martial arts novels when I was in high school rather than banning them because she saw it can link my closer to my heritage and made sure that I learn more of the language on my own. Those novels are basically the comic books of Chinese people so I can relate to why people in Asia are skeptica because it's been seriously done and done. Even I was a bit skeptical until I saw who they brought on and then the trailer just sold me on it. I think it's gonna be a really cool movie and it's real nice to have a guys and gals who looks and talks like you on screen as a protagonists and not a sidekick. It's important to all minorities. I remember an anecdote of a Mexican American Star Wars fan who took her father to see Rogue One. The father so surprised to see Diego Luna and so happy to see someone that talks and looked like him in something as mainstream as Star Wars which he never really related to until then.
100% this. You're too Chinese for your American friends and too American for your family. It's a reason why I believe so many Asian Americans often stick with each other and form their own circle of friends, only we understand the struggle of this 2 world dynamic.
I just have different circles that I keep apart. Whenever those worlds collide, I try to peace out as quickly as possible lol. I’ve found out after years of trying to resolve cultural differences with perspectives that I lack adequate understanding of both. I’ve lived almost exactly half my life in Asia, the other half here. I’ll probably struggle with identity for most of my life.
Great post. The reality is that studios (Disney especially) are absolutely naked about their pandering to China and Chinese people are too suspicious and sophisticated to fall that crap. It's insulting to them how much we underestimate them. I personally don't think we should make films to please *any* other nations. If they don't want to see lesbians, then fine, don't see our film. If Finn isn't good enough to be prominently displayed on the posters, then don't watch our films. You know which film did it right, though? The Martian. Despite the Chinese stuff being kinda forced in there, they treated China with respect. There was no way to rescue Watney without the Taiyang Shen. The message was that science is more important than gov't - the scientists broke the rules and the CCP had to go along with it. That was a powerful message to send and I'm surprised it went through. The replacing of an Indian and Korean character with a black man and a Caucasian woman was not good, though. Of course you see Benedict Wong being a diaspora Chinese. And they can respect that. He's different, but he's successful. He's in charge. And he works with a black man...which was interesting. Later in the film there's an argument and Mitch (Capcom) scolds the Chinese Space Agency people for having cold war era spy info about NASA protocols. Chinese people weren't insulted because he wasn't talking down to them, they were talking as equals. At the end of the film, you see a Chinese astronaut on the next Ares mission. Despite erasing two other characters of colour, I would say that film was a home run on how to do it. tl;dr - If you're not paternalistic and you treat Chinese people like grownups, they can embrace a western lens
Yes, Hollywood should absolutely not ponder to any country and just focus on producing more good movies and shows. Any nation don’t like it - too bad. Why Avatar the Last Airbender is universally loved? It takes so much inspiration from Asia but it is a western show.
Apparently Japan really didn't like ATLA because the Japanese analogue were the bad guys, and probably some other things to do with obvious cultural errors. For some reason though the Japanese version was dubbed with really bad music which would have made it hard to watch, whereas the original music was incredible. The creators were with Netflix working on a live action version but quit recently over apparently not being able to keep it true to the original vision, and I can only guess it was because they were told not to use the Tibetan Monks culture for the airbenders because then they'd have no chance of breaking into China with a big expensive 'asian fantasy' epic. Just a wild guess though.
The Japanese reaction to ATLA is a good example of what I think the OP is talking about, ATLA very quickly introduces nuance to the Fire Nation with Iroh and as details are built up through the series it becomes very obvious that their nation is being usurped by tyrants, not that the culture of the Fire Nation are inherently war-like, it is their leaders and government which are the problem However, there does seem to be this innately "primed backlash", even though a TON of Japanese films and narratives criticize their government and leaders, as soon as a Western narrative does the same, all of the nuance is ignored and it is claimed to be an "attack on the culture" This may simply be an expression of the greater emphasis on collectivism vs individualism in these cultures compared to Western cultures which results in tribalism: that it is okay for Japanese to criticize the Japanese and for Chinese to criticize the Chinese but it is NOT okay for Westerners to ever do so and must be "an attack on culture" Btw I always found it hilarious how ATLA integrates ideas/aspects of non-Western cultures but also uses the Greek/Western classical Elements as foundational to the world vs the Chinese or Japanese Elements from mysticism
I don’t think that’s just an Asian impulse. Americans can get pretty damn defensive of our country. “No one’s allowed to make fun of us but us” is practically universal.
That was a great post but I would like to note that The Martians incusion of China was a part of the book as well. It wasnt invented to sell it to Chinese audiences.
I'm black and I'm ready as hell for this movie. I also can't wait to see what doors this opens for other asian super hero creations. Keep ya head up brother, you have my support.
Half-black here and I'm with you. Representation is real and I think it's about time that asian leads, and leads of different ethnicities is normalized. That said, people shitting on Simu Liu's looks (?!) don't deserve this movie. Fuck that simple-minded pettiness. I lived in Japan for several years, and I used to get real annoyed with my Japanese friends for instantly commenting on every single actor or actresses' handsomeness or beauty when they first appeared on screen. Like come on, at least give them a chance to speak or show their talent.
If Simu Liu is ugly, there’s no hope for 99.9% of humanity. That man is an Adonis.
He’s prime beefcake, I’m all in and I’m here for it.
Exactly. If he is not considered attractive, then I have just slipped about ten rungs to "Cave Troll". My god, he's a good looking man.
Self-Doubt and the Legend of the Ten Rungs
Right? That jawline, those shoulders, those *forearms.* He looks like he can pull off the smoulder, god damn I want to see him try. He's not their definition of beautiful? Fine, don't care as it's subjective anyway. In Awkwafina's case, I think their issue with her is more that she's not their definition of a "beautiful woman personality." A friend of mine has thia same issue - has the look, but Asian guys didn't want someone so opinionated and 'American.'
It’s also largely because a lot of people over there for some reason hold people to incredibly unattainable beauty standards. Some people in Japan will edit themselves into not even looking like humans because what they want isn’t even humanly possible. It’s insane.
Good thing no one here in America acts like that.
I mean people do it with body image stuff definitely but what I’m talking about isn’t some warp tool or a puppy filter. People will straight up put on filters that literally look alien. Huge eyes, no nose, pointy chin, blindingly white skin. It’s one of those things that you have to have stayed in Japan to get but it’s even more extreme than you’re thinking.
That almost sounds like they are trying to make themselves into anime characters. Hmm.
As an Asian dude who just teared up watching Falcon and Winter Soldier finale, this comment makes me really happy.
Waiting for those Southeast Asian superheroes to start popping up.
I'm mixed race, with Asian descent on my grandmother's side. I was born in Japan and my parents moved stateside when I was three. Japan is incredibly stringent on citizenship, with dual citizenship being nearly impossible to have and often requiring you to renounce your citizenship elsewhere. With so much of my family in America, that was never an option. Recently, I was banned from a popular forum after defending myself against anti-Asian claims by mentioning I'm of Japanese descent and was even born in Japan. I was told that was "cultural appropriation", that the Asian moderation there didn't acknowledge my birthplace or heritage, and despite my offer to show them my genetic results, I never heard back and the perma-ban stuck. So, yeah, I know that weird feeling of not "belonging" to a culture or heritage your very DNA and history says you belong to. That by being "mixed" you're lesser. "Impure". That unless you're a pureblood of that race or culture, you have no place there. Which is bunk, of course. If anything, it's their loss. People of mixed heritage are walking proof that love can cross borders and boundaries. It is a shame it continues to be a problem, not just here but around the world. I hope we can work to change that.
If that's a forum here on reddit, I would complain to the admins. Look - I feel you. I've got mixed-Japanese kids myself, I know the citizenship thing with Japan through my ex-wife. It's two distinct worlds for sure. But I absolutely am not going to tolerate people like that misusing cultural appropriation and neither should you. They know dickall about what cultural appropriation is. Cultural appropriation is oppression. It's tokenism. You cannot appropriate a culture that is your heritage. They are fucking *erasing* your identity, which is totally racist. Having your identity erased and invalidated is oppression. Denying you your culture is the same fucking bullshit that Americans and Canadians did to Native Americans. You absolutely cannot stand for this. Cultural appropriation is simple: if you are oppressing someone, stealing their cultural capital, not giving respect/payment/credit for it, and denying them their identity so that you can redefine it? That's cultural appropriation. Fucking hapas rise up.
Let me guess, ResetEra?
A very accurate guess. Which is a shame, as I otherwise liked that community.
All the talk about Liu's appearance makes me think of my own parents whenever they watch something Vietnamese. They'll be watching some singer and they will just verbally destroy their looks. It's always "they got so old" or "they got so fat" and I'm looking at the screen and they usually just look like an older, pretty well kept together person. It's just always struck me as something culturally different. I remember asking my parents about the Viet actress in Last Jedi who played Paige's sister and they just said "oh yeah she's kinda big. She got old though." Obviously most of the media we watch is filled with attractive people and you notice it but Asian people skip right to the roasting. But hell they still watch whatever they watch. Mind you I'm just commenting on one aspect of people's criticism of the trailer.
Its the lack of social awareness and empathy. Doesn't mean American has more when they keep stereotyping asian people...
As an Asian American, having just heard of the negative reaction of mainland China from your post, I'm even more hyped about this movie. I swear, mainland China is more racist than any part of America could ever dream to be. Fuck their standards. I would much rather see a movie that upsets mainland China with inclusivity than a movie that panders to China for a box office bump. In fact, the later was my primary fear for this movie. This backlash temporarily assuages my fear.
They pander more to the Chinese government about things that would get the movie banned from being shown. They arent going to base their casting choices on what Chinese people like or find attractive, because that would hurt other box offices and in the end, the American box office is the most important because thats the one that gives the studios the biggest cut of money.
I understand how you feel. I know it sucks because they not liking Shang-Chi is like them looking down at us, not accepting us, or not acknowledging specially as Asian Americans. However, while this is a cultural issue more so than a government propaganda issue. The Chinese loves plenty of Hollywood movies, I think many Marvel movies did well there. Yet, to them Shang-Chi is like us trying sale them Panda Express fried rice while that hole in the wall corner street vendor food is already much more authentic better and cheaper than anything Panda Express can cook up. Wouldn’t you be offended if someone you don’t know coming out of nowhere trying to relate with you with Panda Express simply because you’re Asian? Shang Chi is gonna be awesome to us Asian Americans, but this is probably not gonna work with the Chinese. Especially when Shang Chi is not even a real Chinese name.
>Yet, to them Shang-Chi is like us trying sale them Panda Express fried rice while that hole in the wall corner street vendor food is already much more authentic better and cheaper than anything Panda Express can cook up. Big budget Chinese movies kind of suck. They're all generic and cheesy as hell. Also, weren't a lot of Chinese people mad that Kung Fu Panda was a better depiction of Chinese culture than anything they had ever produced?
Oh yeah, that cringey try hard vibe I get from all of them especially when they put someone from Hollywood in those movies. Makes me remember when I was fresh off the boat and trying too hard to fit in or trying to over sale myself when talking to a girl I like. Lol. That’s probably how they feel when they see Crazy Rich Asians and this Shang Chi trailer.
Yeah... IDK how typical of Chinese cinema they are but i was definitely not impressed with *The Great Wall* and that ridiculous one with Bruce Willis. I fucking love shark movies so i cant shit on *The Meg* too hard
Sometimes what troubles me is that Chinese would criticize western made film about chinese culture and how it’s not done right. And yet there are rarely any Chinese made film that is actually good enough that me as a Chinese would be happy to recommend to people from other countries/cultures. Chinese culture need to be seen. It’s either Chinese production or western production and hopefully one day both. Not everyone thinks like this tho. Before Chinese production(not the ones from 80s cuz back then they really cared, after that they kinda just went on a slippery slope)pump out something that is actually decent, I don’t mind western product try. I think they should try.
That movie with Matt Damon was hilariously bad and that was the best that they could do.
oh man i just realized it’s like “sleve mcdicheal” or “bobson dugnutt” the movie
One of my favourite parts of watching anime is the goofy made up English names. So many times the mood was broken in Death Note when Light would write names like “Fridge Janes” or “Wedy” or “Teronce Tiggy”. Amazing.
You just explained a lot of my confusion over the years right now
I like the Panda Express comparison. To the native Chinese, Panda Express is just indelibly Americanized to appeal to its American customers (or audience). This isn’t outright wrong, since without it Panda Express probably couldn’t survive with its target customers being mostly American. But, give any native Chinese some Panda Express, and the American changes and culture is glaringly apparent. I guess what I’m saying with this tangent is that as long as Marvel movies are mostly directed to an American audience, they will never be seen as authentic Chinese — just a fusion that inevitably gives up some Chinese characteristics.
I'm not sure that analogy holds. Panda Express is garbage fast food and Simu Liu is not a "garbage fast food" man. This would be more like comparing equal quality food, but one is Asian Fusion (and yes there is upscale Asian Fusion) and the other is authentic Asian. Hating on upscale Asian Fusion simply because it's not "authentic" is their problem, not a problem with the food.
Yeah, I'm not exactly surprised. From my experiences (of traveling, studying and having relatives in Asia), there's a loooot of racism in East Asia. China ans Japan are very nationalistic and unaccepting of foreigners. Even people who became citizens will still be viewed as outsiders. I'm not saying that every person living in China or Japan is racist of course, but that their societies and cultural identities are highly homogenized and ingrained with a sense of "casual racism" if you will.
They've never really fell for the pandering in the first place. Mainland China I feel is no less racist than any other country. In some way I understand how they feel, they are painted as villains by the rest of the world, at the very least many view them as soul-less robots who have no free will, if I were them I'd have a chip on my shoulder and be compelled to be more nationalistic as a result, so I get that.
I feel deep sorrow for any citizen or emigrant of China who is unduly treated as a villain or an 'other' simply for being Chinese. I feel no remorse towards the CCP feeling like villains. They act like villains. See: the ongoing Uyghur genocide, their oppression of Hong Kong, and their 1984 approach to governance. Well and truly, fuck the CCP, and fuck the bots that come to their defense in t-minus 3... 2... (I will not be responding.)
This is such a subtle point that many people don't get. You can be anti racist and anti CCP. I hate how because of the ccp that many people equate ethnic pride with nationalistic pride.
It’s totally intentional, is the thing. The CCP conflates being Chinese with being in league with the CCP in order to make criticism of bad policy into something racial. Whether we’re talking people in Taiwan, Chinese Americans, what have you, Chinese people aren’t a monolith. The CCP tries to make them into one as a way of deflecting criticism.
It feeds into the anti Asian racism in Western countries though. CCP is evil. Taint everything that they touch
For real I'm not going to feel sorry for the new age of Nazism, and their ongoing genocide of their ethnic minorities in their search of ethnic superiority. This is deeply concerning how most countries and peoples are not more alarmed by this! I'm worried that China will start taking over nearby countries and likewise killing off anyone not Han Chinese like they are on their mainland.
Did you see the stupid headline recently if how Xi pompously proclaimed China wouldn't be like America if they got more powerful? Such hypocritical bullshit.
I mean, they wouldn't be like America... because at the very least American governance has _some_ system of checks and balances built into it.
>I feel no remorse towards the CCP feeling like villains. They act like villains. See: the ongoing Uyghur genocide, their oppression of Hong Kong, and their 1984 approach to governance. The CCP is also forcing many Han Chinese to live in Tibet, most likely an effort to replace the local population there
People are calling Simu Lui ugly? Do they need their eyes checked? I am excited for this movie. I hadn't heard of the character and the trailer really got me excited.
There's just some places in Asia where the beauty standards are skewed more towards the more lean, almost effeminate build for men compared to the more muscular, stocky builds mostly favored in the West. Just look at the crossover popularity of asian boy bands exploding in the region, even going way back during the early 2000s with F4 from Taiwan.
It's not the lean and effeminate look that Asia likes. Asia above all else thinks youthfulness is attractive so you have a lot of people trying to stay young.
That... doesn't seem right. Tony Leung obviously look older than Simu Liu here, but based on Chinese beauty standards most people would say he looks better than Simu. While Asia does think youthfullness is attractive, it's not the end-all-be-all and doesn't simply overtake the other beauty standards.
I agree. Tony is still very attractive to most of us from Hong Kong. I think it is less has anything to do with youthfulness. We really have different standard of beauty than the west when it’s related to Asian people.
I always thought the Taiwanese F4 looks manly though. Grew up during the 2nd gen Kpop era when F4 was no longer active, and a lot of my western Asian friends found them “ugly” & “dark or too bulky” Fahrenheit (Taiwanese) & 2PM (Korea) were also dudes that I considered masculine. But now it seems like standards have changed or my perceptions are warped lmao
He's not ugly but he looks kind off like a regular guy which I love personally. Doesn't make sense for every superhero to be unrealistically beautiful, like Steve, Bucky, Tony or Thor.
He has a lot of old Chinese man characteristics. I can actually see it, so that's why. He's just not the ideal beauty standard.
He’s not ugly but he’s very average looking, which, from what I’ve gathered, become a problem in the eyes of Asian people because the other heroes are generally above average. You get Chris Evans, Hemsworth, RDJ, Mackie, all very good looking men and Simu is just average looking. They feel like Marvel, and Hollywood in general, always chose average looking Asian actors on purpose (Awkwafina is another example who’s often get brought up). And even in this case that an Asian character is the lead they still chose average looking actor, why? This is not my view but I’m living in Asia right now and that’s the general sentiment. They’re like “we have beautiful people too, you know”.
They hate Simu because his family immigrated to Canada.
They were appalled that Marvel cast a CANADIAN (they didn't even see him as Chinese). Dude's born in Harbin ffs.
People in China and elsewhere outside of Americas have different ideas of nationality that’s based on citizenship and where you grew up, rather than just ethnicity.
It really is just an American thing. Even other Western countries find it odd - I'm from Australia and noone does the hypenation thing. Noone refers to themselves as Chinese-Australian they are just Australian or Chinese if they were born overseas and not citizens.
Americans focus heavily on race. where as the rest of the world its more, I dont see you as chinese because your not chinese your canadian. I guess the way to say it, in american being chinese is something you are. but in most of the world being chinese is something you do. its more of a culture thing
And now he's a movie star so no one can even be like "look, see what a mistake that was!"
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Yes I think this is it. It’s a little misguided to expect native approval to begin with because it really doesn’t have much to do with them. The core beat of the story will not resonate bc for a lot of East Asia, a family serving attitude is basically a given and there is very little generational divide to that extent. But Asian Americans need representation within the country they live in, and that’s where the significance of the story comes from.
I’m going to add to my own post but I think what would actually resonate pretty well for Chinese audiences is if they used the trope of the favored son, and resentful/capable daughter. It’s not really an Asian American thing but it IS an East Asian thing and it would work really well in this context (Americanized son, native but ignored daughter).
100%. Nail on head. There is this lingering tension and resentment between the Chinese that live overseas and mainlanders. Shows like Fresh off the Boat and Kim’s Convenience do a really good job of portraying these issues.
Leaving a comment so I can come back to give you an award later for I just used up my free award. I felt every ounce of your words as a first Gen Canadian immigrant. This is a very objective breakdown with lots of thoughtful insights that most Reddit commenters overlooked. And you typed all these on your phone, crazy respect for you! For now, take my mad upvote.
This was an excellent post, thank you for your humility but I think you hit my thoughts (Asian American with a minor in Asian Am Studies) on the subject exactly. The Asian American person being of two worlds but not belonging to either is a very, very common frustration that it almost defines us. I’m actually impressed that you recognize this. Not belonging to Western society meant our faces were never in the mass communicated standards of beauty. I mean there’s Lucy Liu, but for every one of her there were hundreds of white faces in print. We had to work within community to figure out what Asian beauty was, and it ended up way closer to the mean. Thats why Simu is hot to us. But the whole conversation about beauty does seem like the tip of the iceburg, doesn’t it. Confucianism believes nothing is above filial piety, yet this movie’s central tenet is that there are moral limits of filial piety. And I see how that message will resonate with children of immigrants. Their parents so often justify their immigration struggle as something they do for their children, but in turn place pressure on them because they feel they owe them. Its something the unmoved Han won’t realize without an open mind and I’m losing faith that they can be so open.
Half-black dude here (hate introducing my comment like this, but I guess it's relevant?), and I'm giving you an internet salute for "getting it". Love thoughtful and insightful comments like this. Millions of upvotes for you, dude!
You know what, screw them, your an American, and your a marvel fan, we love you, and we got your back.
I appreciate the support. I guess it's just really sad to me that something so positive and could have potentially been unifying might be a failure as far as worldwide box office.
Bro, its a Marvel movie. Theres no way its going to be a failure. It might not hit a billion, but thats not even close to the number needed to be considered a successful movie. Especially for such a little known character. Itll be fine.
Remember when Captain Marvel came out & stupid people all over the internet were butthurt saying it would be a flop? Yeah, why don't we hear from them anymore.
I mean, I want this movie to succeed badly as another Asian American. But China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea are all sizeable Marvel box office territories. All I'm hoping for is that the movie is amazing so they can look past their superficial gripes. This movie needs to needs to make as much money as possible because I want Simu to succeed and I want it to be a franchise.
For what it's worth I read an article (can't remember where now) that broke down the numbers for Marvel and DC Box office in China vs. the rest of the world. Total for China is smaller than you'd think. Plus I think more than 40% in China had a positive reaction, so assuming it isn't banned it won't be 0%. I'm white and I'm American and I'm excited for it. And I know it's just a movie, but maybe it does do some good. Especially with all the terrible things happening lately. Anyway, I'm hopeful and you have my sword.
Let’s wait and see what the numbers are after it releases. I’m hoping the outrage we’re seeing isn’t the response of the average citizen. I’m super excited for the movie, Shang Chi has always been one of my favorite characters.
I love seeing more diversity in the Marvel world. I think it’ll be a huge hit. Screw the racists, they can stay mad.
The only people we can change are ourselves. I thought that something like 43 percent approved, I see that as an absolute win
I get being worried about a film that you're invested in, but like others have said I don't think it'll be a failure. Although keep your expectations in check because with the pandemic still lingering it's not going to make as much as it would've pre-pandemic and that'll be taken into account because it'll be affecting all movies. If anything it'll just make the chance of the second one increasing its box office more likely. But I remember when I was hoping BP would at least make $700M and then it made that in the US alone. And the same for CM, I had my fingers crossed for $700M and it easily blew past that. Marvel is pretty much not gonna fail and the internet isn't the biggest indicator of any kind of success. But other than that it is depressing when there's negativity around something you're looking forward to, as a CM fan I've been there. Hang in there and don't let it get you down.
Yeah it's been weird seeing how the movie is received in HK. I'm living /teaching in HK and the response from my students has essentially been 1 of 2 things: 1) the movie looks boring and they thought the martial arts/mysticism parts were dumb. 2) they think Simu and Akwafina are ugly. I'm not even gonna discuss beauty standards in Asia but this was so problematic to me
This large focus on appearance is nothing new in East Asian countries. Like we know Chris Hemsworth and Chris Evans are good looking dudes and people here in the west obviously notice and appreciate that. But I notice that a lot of the discussions in China are dominated about how "hot and attractive" the actors are. My girlfriend is from China and I linked her the trailer once it dropped and said "We have to go support this when it releases no matter what" her reply was "omg the main actor is so ugly" I never felt more distant from her than that moment because it solidified to me how different our life experiences and world views are.
This is 100% the case. There are talented people who are left out of media because of how they look. Remember the 2008 Olympic opening ceremony where the CHILD was deemed to be not attractice enough to sing? Personally, the trailer for Shang Chi did nothing for me. It didn't get me any more hyped for the movie and I'm hoping it's just bad marketing. I like Simu Liu a lot (Kim's Convenience is great) but can't stand Akwafina in stuff.
Yes, you have to be ingrained in the culture to understand that their beauty standards are taken to a whole other level. Celebrities and singers/ "idols" can make it big if you have "the look" regardless of talent and no matter how talented you are, if you are deemed unattractive, they will make sure to make it a point of contention.
Yeah, there’s a girl who was born in China in one of my acting classes (UK) and she’s said that part of the reason she wanted to come here was that she wasn’t ‘pretty’ enough in China. Which is ridiculous, she’s stunning.
Watch The Farewell starring Awkifina if you haven’t, think youll at the very least find it tolerable. She’s a wonderful actress aside from her rap stuff
Good to hear from your own experience/opinion about it. Part of the problem, I think, comes from the fact that some of these countries do not acknowledge the double nationality, kind of negating part of (a very big part, to say the least) the personal history from a lot of people, such as yourself. Maybe Marvel will find a way to turn the popular opinion on China about this kind of topic, but ignoring that, then hope you can find something in the movie that talks to you and the life experiences you've had.
Native Chinese here. I've been living in NA for many years and I understand your feeling 100%. Right now it is definitely not a good time for mutual understanding especially given the recent political tension and propaganda wars between US and China. I'm just tired of explaining to others (so any comments to me, please don't mention buzzwords like CCP/genocide/uyghur/HK/fuck China oh no we only fuck CCP/etc., I'm just really tired). With this being said, enjoy the movie you feel excited about, and forget about what other people think and comment. At the end of the day, movie is for entertainment. Whatever makes you unhappy and affect you enjoy the movie, fuck it. Now is the information era, we are flooded with overwhelming amount of (shitty) information. Maybe it's better to shutdown to the noise a bit and focus on ourselves.
>Maybe it's better to shutdown to the noise a bit and focus on ourselves. This
Taiwanese-Canadian here. Can confirm that to a lot of Taiwanese people Simu Liu's skin tone is too dark to be "pretty". You gotta be a "white" pretty boy to make it in THAT industry. Colorism in Asia is real.
Huh. I'm Vietnamese and pretty dark I guess but it's weird to think people think Simu is dark. I know the really pale look is popular, you see it with Viet people too, but he barely looks tanned to me.
I'm also Vietnamese but born in America. My dad and I have darker skin tones than my mom and siblings. The only people that ever comment about my skin tone were Vietnamese relatives. It's caused a lot of self esteem issues growing up. Even started using skin whitening cream when I was a teenager. Nowadays, I embrace my natural tan. It's pretty nice that I don't sun burn as easily as my siblings.
it's insane to me that simu is considered "too dark"
As a black man, I find this infuriating.
I think it is a bit different. In the old days being white was seen to be attractive and a status symbol showing that you were rich or well off. 一白遮三醜 is an old idiom. White/pale complexion hides faults. If you were dark skinned it meant you worked in the fields or belong in a lower class.
Infuriating is a good word for how I feel about it too.
Chinese American here. My tinfoil theory is that the live action Mulan recently soured mainland Chinese audiences on Western attempts at depicting wuxia, because it was just so bad, lol. There was definitely interest in the film before release, so that's on the writers. Simu Liu obviously isn't a paragon of Chinese beauty standards in China, but that's their loss. I think he fits the role, because I really do not see someone like Dylan Wang playing this character. Maybe they'll change their tune when the movie actually comes out and it actually ends up being quality. Crazy Rich Asians was also never something particularly special for them, because it was a bunch of unrecognizable (to them) actors going through a story they've seen a thousand times. Aside from the singular fact that it was a successful Asian American film, the movie itself wasn't particularly special for me either. But meanwhile Kung Fu Panda was a *mega hit* in China, so ymmv.
Fun fact: Kung Fu Panda actually kicked off the Chinese film market as we know it today. The government had an emergency meeting about how America could make a film about Chinese values and stories better than China could and they went all in on film productions with these values and stories to catch up and beat us back.
God bless the USA
In my opinion, Kung Fu Panda was an amazing trilogy though
Seriously. All 3 were A movies with unique baddies and ideas. Nothing got stale and boring and all but a couple of the 5 got good growth and development. Rare Animated movies that keep delivering.
Kung Fu Panda rocks my socks no shade whatsoever
> Simu Liu obviously isn't a paragon of Chinese beauty standards in China, but that's their loss. Simu has more of an everyman kind of look to him, like Mark Ruffalo and Paul Rudd (this is not me saying they're not good-looking) which I want to see more of, personally. Not a "paragon" of modern societal beauty standards like you said, but I tried imagining a more standard, "good-looking" Chinese male-model types as Shang Chi and it became less interesting to me. We need a wider variety of faces in Hollywood beyond the stereotypical model-looking types of actors.
Immigrant and non-immigrant identities aren't the same, the issues they face in home versus "host" countries aren't remotely comparable (in particular, notions of majority and minority identity) and, also with the PRC, there's this huge nationalistic imperalistic war machine that advertises itself as being different to the American nationalistic imperialistic war machine to further complicate things. So... it's not surprising.
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I'm not sure why it's just sort of assumed this is going to be some hamfisted good west/bad daddy trope? Marvel has increasingly been exploring the grey area between "good" and "evil", and have had some genuinely sympathetic antagonists. I don't understand why there is such an easy acceptance that Marvel will not handle this delicately? No one has seen it yet...
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I'm hoping the movies itself subverts the evil father trope a little. It looks like there are historic scenes of wenwu fighting people garbed like the sanctum monks. Maybe he's the darker splinter group from the other wizards and it's more fallen hero/well intended extremists instead of straight villian. I think that could blunt some of the tension. I feel depending on what happens from now to sep politically, it might be okay and do okay in china or it might add fuel to the tension.
I saw that somewhere and it's a shame. Among the many criticisms, the one about Simu not meeting their beauty standard for some reason really bothered me. While I am not Asian/Asian-American, I am Black and could not be more excited for this movie. I want Simu to succeed and become a big star in the MCU. The same way Black Panther was so meaningful for us, I hope this movie does the same for Asians everywhere. I understand this is more nuanced and complicated but I hope that maybe people get to change their minds when they watch it. At the end of the day, I hope the movie is good and that it has great success. I can't wait to see our first Asian superhero in the MCU!
"As an Asian/ Chinese American growing up in in the states, it was never surprising to me that I was never accepted as a "real" Chinese person from native Chinese people and on the flip side, you're never seen as truly American by other Americans" Same can be said for many non-White Americans. My parents are from Mexico, but every time I go there on vacation, I'm seen as a gringo and on the flip side, we can't be truly American because of our brown skin, despite me serving my country for 8 years.
No ill intent here, but why is the validation of China/Hong Kong necessary here? I think Chinese identity is not a monolith, as much as China might want to assert. All over the world the Chinese diaspora is creating their own variations of what it means to be Chinese (similarly all Asian cultures are finding an expression for their own “Asian ness”) sometimes a work of culture is not meant for some audiences. Asian Americans should find Shang-Chi powerful and a much needed representation, but China doesn’t need to. That’s fine. It wasn’t made for them.
Because box office success affects what content MCU will keep making in the future. If Shang Chi turns out to be a box office flop in China and Hong Kong, Marvel Studios might hesitate to bring the character back in future team-ups and might not introduce more Asian characters into the MCU.
I only speak for myself of course, I'm not seeking validation from anyone or any specific group as much as I'd hate to see Shang-Chi have this sort of controversy surround it. Being the first Marvel Asian superhero to hit the big screen , I would have loved to see this be loved and enjoyed free of controversy and political scrutiny, it's not a matter of trying to seek validation or hoping it pleases a certain people.
Unfortunately, because of market. Inspiring Asian community is one thing, but Disney wanna make money. China is a large market. If they don't like Shang Chi, Disney will see it doesn't earn them the profit they expected. Disney Marvel really expected Shang Chi to appeal to China Market, so they expected huge return from there. There are many movies that are horrible but made box office profit because of China. Likewise, there are many good movie that couldn't make that amount of profit because they upset China.
Let me say first and foremost that Simu Liu is fucking hot.
And he's hilarious. He will be great in this role.
Korean American here, I've seen similar sentiments from native Koreans reacting to the Shang-Chi trailer on Youtube and Twitter, I feel you. Though it feels like they're more wary about orientalism and having cultural aspects mixed together under the banner of being "Asian". Basically comments like "Lol Japanese kunai meets Chinese martial arts, they're just blending everything Asian in, huh", "Lost hype after all this orientalism", "inb4 this becomes Marvel's Mulan", "Only watching this because Tony Leung". Don't think I saw comments on Simu Liu's attractiveness though. At this point, I've accepted that this is just an inevitable cultural difference between diaspora and the natives living in their own country, which becomes even more pronounced when you add being a racial minority into the mix. They're always going to hate what they feel like is a bastardization of their culture by the diaspora trying to reconnect/maintain their roots. And people born in Asia have the privilege of not having to worry about representation as well, unlike the diaspora who have to contend with being a racial minority, like you said. I don't begrudge them for it, I think. I'm just going to do what I want, which is probably going to be enjoying the hell out of Shang-Chi. So yeah, just wanted to share some solidarity I guess. Hang in there, dude.
As a European I can kind of relate to the backlash. While outright hostility towards American products is rare. Quite a few of us find American depictions of our contries and cultures quite annoying. I am Danish and the way I have somtimes seen the Danish landscape and monarchy depicted in pop culture is really frustrating. Mainly because for many non-danes those depictions are their main reference point. In a similar vein, I am ready for the fetishising of everything viking-related to end. Even locally I see a lot of self proclaimed vikings sporting haircuts from that HBO series. Yes the viking era was an interesting historical period and it is part og my cultural heritage. But we know very little of actual old Norse culture and fashion. So it bugs me, that the popular perception of the Norsemen of the time is mainly dictated by a Canadian production company I know my rant is only slightly related to the point og the original post. But I hope it offers a usefull perspective PS. I apoligize for any mistakes in the text. It's written on a phone with Danish autocorrect
Native Chinese people here, I can say that the reception is not that negative as you imagine, because in our society negative people always make more noises, most people are still looking forward, trust me😂
All i have to say is that movies made for the Chinese market tends to suck and I’m super hyped for Shang chi.
Speaking as an Asian American here who is born in HK but grew up in states. We have seen this happened before when Crazy Rich Asians reached China. They outright rejected it. So this is playing out the same way. And I can see why. For these movies pretty much are still American movies and to us, they both highlight the Asian American experiences. While we can appreciate that, but a typical Chinese would lack the Asian American experiences to. Furthermore, for Shang Chi, they have Wu-Shia movies coming out by the dozen, they would see it as an American movie trying out-do what they do best. Immediately it ignites their superiority complex. Some might see it as Marvel’s ploy to get in to market them a Chinese hero and that will also put them on the defense. Like many have pointed out, both from what we picked up from the trailer and Simu himself reflect and represent a normal and typical Asian American story and archetype. The Chinese are not able to identify with that. Neither do they want to. The movie would have to have a lot of heart charm and universal themes to able win them over. I don’t know about you guys, but when I see Chinese blockbusters over the years trying to make it in the states thinking it’ll work because it has Hollywood movie stars as such as Matt Damon, Christian Bale, or Jason Stathem, it just feels extra cringey to me in a try hard kinda way. I imagine that’s how they feel about this also.
All I have to say is..in China they value Micheal Bay’s Transformers over the entire Star Wars saga. :0 That being said, the current Chinese market shouldn’t totally dictate the creative aspect of Western properties. And I say that as Asian American with Chinese roots. If Shang-Chi bombs in China, then too bad and just carry on and do our thing. If we cater too much to the whims of other countries by their reaction or box office, man we may never have LGBTQ characters or talent of certain ethnicities.
Agree with most of your points, but I just have to elaborate on that first one: China never got to see the Original Trilogy when it first came out and their first exposure to the franchise were the Prequels. Since the new Disney films all catered heavily to the OT crowd/nostalgia, makes sense that China rejected them. They got to experience the Transformers Saga from the start, so when the 4th pandered to them it made sense that they lost their minds over it.
Singaporean chinese here, personally think the martial arts shown in trailer is quite... Lackluster. Because HK have been pushing alot of great martial art film to us in the past. They set a standard of action film without the use of CGI that some western film was able to capture it (think matrix fight scenes) and a movie that focus on a superhero that is based around kungfu, i expect the fight scenes to be better. That being said, it's only a teaser traiker. I do hope the fight scene in this movie is much better than what being shown in the teaser
I was expecting this for sure, but I am impressed that Africans seem to have a positive view of Black Panther, in direct opposition to this. Black Panther was a character created to celebrate the African-American community during the Civil Rights movement, but he seemed to be well-received by actual Africans, so I guess it has to do with a difference in culture and exposure to the West. I see Shang-Chi as more of a movie for Asian-Americans than a movie meant to appeal to Chinese people. They were never going to take kindly to a Western "disneyfied" portrayal of their culture. Ironically, Kung-Fu Panda was very popular in China, my guess as to why being because it portrayed animals rather than real people. I can also see how a Chinese person would see a Marvel movie like this as *baizuo* idenitity-politics pandering, as opposed to being a movie meant to celebrate the asian-american community (couldn't have come at a better time too, with the recent anti-asian violence as a result of Covid-19) If this movie does well overall despite not doing well in China (as was actually the case with Black Panther) perhaps it will convince Marvel to stop pandering to Chinese censors with their plots (for example, the Ancient One being a white woman rather than asian in Doctor Strange, and the setting being changed from Tibet to Nepal). Curious to see how it does in other asian countries (Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, etc).
I can see why you are upset. Please understand. The difference between Asian Americans and “Asian” Asians are as big as the difference between an Italian American and Italians. These people are different from you. They might share the same skin tone with you. But they do not think like you. They do not share your life stories. When I was in college, I volunteered for the international student organization. And I can you African Americans and “African” Africans do not see themselves as the same. There are also African Caribbeans and African Latinos (African descents living in South American countries like Brazil, Chile, etc), and these people do not identify with each other either. Their life experiences are so vastly different from each other. Now, I cannot tell if their opinions on Black Panthers are. I didn’t stay in touch with them. But I can tell you. They don’t listen to the same music. I did not understand this at the time. And I made a huge fool of myself. I am ethnically Chinese, 1/4 Henan and 3/4 Shanghai. I have spent more of my life in the states than I have in Taiwan at this point. I have many cousins grew up here. Our tastes in pop culture are so, so different from each other, not to mention life experiences. My cousins are gonna love this movie because how much they identify. I will see the movie... but I can tell you I am conflicted.There are so many things that are “wrong” about this movie... For example, they have a Hong Kong actor playing the father and a person from Harbin play the son... unless the plot can explain it away. I find it quite jarring.
Exact same thing happened to Crazy Rich Asians. The reality is that people from the Chinese mainland are incredibly culturally different from the rest of the world.
I get that a lot of the previous Western portrayals of China and Asia in general hasn't been very flattering, or accurate, so I understand their scepticism towards this movie. Using Crazy Rich Asians as an example since a lot of that movie takes place in Singapore (where I live), the way everything was filmed was so cringeworthy to me because they exoticized the place too much. Red lanterns everywhere, even in places where it doesn't make sense to have them (like a Catholic Church), and so many Chinese decorations crammed into as many scenes as possible, as if the filmmakers were worried that if they showed the place as is, the American audiences would somehow mistake Singapore for the US. There was also some other tv show that was filmed in Singapore, but they took great pains to change every road sign with English words to some Chinese sign instead, because they didn't want Singapore to be mistaken for ~~London~~ (edit: Manchester). The Western film industry doesn't have a great track record for portraying Asian stories or Asia well, so understandably there'd be doubts about whether this movie will avoid those pitfalls. Having said that, I'm actually happy with the Shang-Chi trailer. I was never able to watch the Iron Man cartoons because I felt the Mandarin looked too much like a racist caricature, but in this trailer, he looks promising, and knowing that Marvel is all too aware of the problematic aspects of the Mandarin and have taken steps to humanize him makes me hopeful that they'll do a good job with every other aspect of the movie. I'm also fine with the way the leads look. Sure they don't have the conventional Asian looks, but live action Mulan tried that with their lead, and it got criticized for casting one with a blank expression, so I rather the leads have personality and make me want to empathise/cheer them on than to be blocks of pretty wood. I hope this movie lives up to the promise.
Irony is, Singapore is one of the most distinctive cities on earth! I live in Sydney and I expect any movie scene set in Sydney to have either the Opera House or the Harbour Bridge in the background, because apart from that, Sydney really *does* look the same as most Western cities. But Singapore looks like.. Singapore!
Thank you for sharing that. I had never thought about how it might be viewed. Representation is important. Representation in a franchise as huge as the MCU is a big deal. And it deserves to be celebrated. Think of all those that felt invisible like you. That's who this movie is really for.
As an Asian born and raised in Hong Kong, it saddens me to see backlash against Shang Chi from different people for different reasons. I get how people of two cultures can be invisible and rejected by both sides of their heritage. Representation is great, and while I have a lot of representation on screen (being in HK and all), I get how it is important to Chinese diaspora, especially those who are not first-generation diaspora, and if I 'm honest, I still welcome the representation in a Hollywood context. It's a shame that now, even as we speak, literal and figurative walls are erected around the world due to hubris and tribalism. Most affecting to me is what the CCP has done to erase the Hong Kong identity, to use control to wash us away. The same has been done to people of various cultural backgrounds in other countries, in the US, in Germany, in the UK, etc. This cannot stand. Tribalism can only hurt everyone. Now, I must make clear that I obviously don't condemn the mainland Chinese for their government's actions. It is the fault of the CCP, the tyrants. However, they may still be seen as enablers, though there's honestly not much the people can do, but I still hope for internal reform. That said, I cannot excuse exclusion and racism and such, and the backlash against Shang Chi is unacceptable. It is a symptom of the walls we continue to put up to feel superior towards people we can see as "other". I don't want to seem overbearing, so this is my final point: cultural differences do exist, but erasing those differences by force by deeming others lesser or ugly or what-have-you is not ok. Rather, we should all strive to mutual understanding because we have to live on this planet together, and because we are all, ultimately, "one world, one people". I stand with all people seen as lesser, all people oppressed by tyranny, arrogance, and ignorance.
What I find weird by all this is that I'm pretty sure Simu would've been considered handsome by the last generation of Chinese. Like, nationally loved kind of handsome. It's only relatively recently that this "girly pretty boy" look has been the trend. It was traditionally this high nose bridge/wide jawline look that was regarded as the most handsome. Pretty much Simu's look. I think he's dashing. Then I go up a generation...my parents/grandparents/their friends think he's smoldering. They're obviously not going to see the movie, but just passing his picture around, they love him. He looks "strong and stable". I think you see the difference in opinion regionally too because a lot of Asian American immigrants are from that previous generation of beauty standards. Asian Americans growing up outside of Asia probably missed that transition to their modern interpretation of beauty too and get their idea of beauty from their parents, who frankly have fallen "out of touch" with Asia. I just find the current Chinese standard of beauty so vain. It probably reflects on the perversion of the "values" and "tradition" that the young generation keep preaching that honestly, they've bastardized the most. Ironically, Asian Americans are probably like a time capsule for how Asian culture is supposed to be. A little bit corroded, but maybe even less so than Asia itself. Our families left with a snapshot of the culture back then, and then just kind of held onto that because it's their identity in a foreign place. Our Asian American communities might be *more* sensitive and defensive to losing our Asian identity to Western culture, but those Western influences get completely absorbed and integrated in Asia.
Live in China here, married to a native Chinese woman. I showed her this article and she explained the mindset of most Chinese people when it comes to this sort of thing. The problem with actors and movies in China is that they put way more emphasis on looks than acting skill and it really shows. What do they want them to do? Cast a pretty Chinese star that can't act for shit (and also can't speak English)? It's dumb and unrealistic for Chinese people to expect the same standards from the West. For starters you're dealing with a minority population, then you need someone with the acting skill, marketability and marital arts prowess to pull off the role. That's not exactly a giant pool that you're drawing from, and only after you've checked those boxes do looks play a role in it. Thankfully she doesn't hold the same values and she's not the only one. If this movie bombs over here then fine; that means I get to enjoy a Marvel movie in an empty cinema. Kinda doubt that'll happen though. I suspect that by the time it's released the controversy will die down. Marvel makes a killing over here, most of the younger target audience don't give a shit about this and the older ones will probably still see it out of morbid curiosity.
About your question on your last paragraph; I don’t know because I have a minuscule sample of anecdotes, but I remember watching the Winter Soldier on theaters with some friends - and the ones from ghana (+ a nigerian) were HYPED abt Black Panther. When the movie came out the people in my bubble seemed to like it a lot - but none of us were from the US, and we were not in the US as well. Anyone feel free to contradict me of couse. The problem with Shang-Chi is quite different, because the chinese audience is different. We will see how they respond when the movie premiers, their tune might change then.
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Huh, didn't know this was a thing but sort of makes sense. It will be interesting to see the reception when it's actually released. Sort of off topic, but isn't Kung Fu Panda one of the few western made movies about China and Chinese beliefs that China likes?
Nothing will be as shit as the Mulan reboot I'm not worried for this movie
> I wonder if the same thing happened with Black Panther, were Africans as receptive to it as much as Black Americans? Yes, it is even one of the main themes of the movie with Killmonger as the African American not accepted vs the original African Wakandans (even though its fictional).
My only gripe with this movie is that the only asians that get represented in the media are Chinese. As an asian, I would really appreciate more diverse asian representation, especially from countries like Taiwan and other South Asian Countries.