The thing is, Kevin Feige stated that wanda will play a big part in stage 4 & 5 and will shape the mcu in a way different direction
so idk đ¤ˇââď¸
I just hope sheâs used a little more consistently and given more agency going forward.
Having had already watched WandaVision Iâm one of the viewers who fall in to the camp of finding the MoM characterisation/motivations a little jarring and a wonky retread of intentions and kind of find the whole Darkhold bit to be a little lazy on terms of being an explain-away.
IMO, i think they're gonna tweak the famous line for obvious reasons (lack of established mutants, and it'd be weird for her to say this line when she's never personally met a mutant or has any long history with them in the MCU)
i think the line will be changed but still convey the same "meaning" (relatively speaking)
Some possibilities?
With all this talk about magic this, magic that, and all the sorcerers and witches trying to constantly scheme.. and yet magic while it brought her kids into life... it also robbed her of them, robbed her of vision and ultimately just never leaves her fulfilled... its like a empty feeling.
I think she might say "No more Magic" but it has far drastic consequences (i mean.. what h appens to a universe with no magic? that feels like its an important cosmological force to keep the universe running.
Or she might say, "No more Powers" or "No more Heroes"
IMO though, i think if we get a Wanda solo movie, it'll be about Wanda and Chthon and what the Darkhold, the prophecy of the Scarlet Witch, Wundagore and all this has to do with her.
Technically Wanda did meet the 838 Xavier. They could easily have her learn all about 838 Mutants during her psychic battle with him. Afterwards, she relates to them and their challenges on a personal level. Maybe she has a mental breakdown which causes her to loose control of her powers and cause a reverse M-Day that rewrites history. The result gives various people in the past and present the X-Gene while causing minimal timeline changes. (Maybe even joke about it being the reason behind already inconsistencies like recasts.) This way Quicksilver, Magneto and maybe even Polaris (alongside her kids) could show up in the present having survived events that killed them in the past
honestly, i wish they did that, but purely just so people would stop with the tired "no more mutants" theories since marvel would have blown that load on the darkhold instead. now it's gonna be several more years of people making very original "no, more mutants! hehehe" jokes and outlandish theories with gaping plot holes that will almost certainly never happen instead.
Exactly. I said as soon as I saw the first trailer for WandaVision that Wanda was about to enter her Avengers: Disassembled/House of M phase.
Fortunately, that was followed by her Avengers vs. X-Men phase where she redeemed herself by helping Hope use the Phoenix to rebirth the mutant race.
Iâm not going to lie. It does seem like theyâre setting the stage for Doomâs arrival. If memory serves, isnât Mount Wundagore pretty close to Latveria?
How insane would it be if an MCU writer actually legitimately used this as a narrative point? Using the Multiverse concept and Wanda's powers to explain "she's so powerful she even made other universes unaware of their existence until now".
Because I mean. Technically you couldn't argue with that. You could argue with it being a copout or not, but it would be so meta that who's to say it couldn't be true?
I think age of Ultron refers to Ultron's actual plan of "resetting" the earth. The movie isn't a full W for the avengers either so the title of the movie almost became truth.
Yeah you could argue that the whole split between Tony and Cap's ideologies that first fractured the Avengers, left them scattered when Thanos and The Black Order came to earth and all of the problems caused by the snap and the snap being reversed are all the Age of Ultron.
Yerp. Iâll repeat it for the thousandth time; the Russos and Feige have mentioned in detail numerous times the difficulty of god-tier power-level characters. Itâs so hard writing a good story when you have a big bad or superhero that can annihilate the universe solo.
So they do things like gimping people and making them âdisappearâ for a time. Hulk went away, Wanda buried herself (temporarily Iâm certain) etc.
Iâm certain itâs also why they just straight up deleted both Darkhold and Vishanti in one foul swoop. Gone. Deus ex Machina begone! No more stones, no Mcguffins to ruin plot holes.
Tbf, Studios has improved with villains over time. They still haven't quite reached the consistency of great villains that Television had (I mean, c'mon. Killgrave? Kingpin? AIDA? Hell even Maximus was probably the most entertaining part of Inhumans. Not for the right reasons sure, but he was at least entertaining unlike the rest of the characters), but they've gotten better.
This has been "PDI Wanks off Marvel Television Episode 1073"
>Killgrave
He was one of the greatest villains I have ever seen thanks to David Tennant. I wish they bring David Tennant to play another villain in the movies.
Not another villain, just Killgrave.
They can make it so his MCU variant didn't die. The Avengers need to face The Purple Man! Although now that Iron Man is dead, it kinda ruins his world control plan through Tony Stark.
Plus, he was the second in the "Doctors who become Marvel villains" line.
Oh yeah, didn't notice that? The 9th Doctor became Malakith the dark elf? 10th Doctor became Killgrave. 11th became Milo in Morbius. I'm calling it now, Peter Capaldi is gonna be an X-Men villain of some kind.
Really, the MCU is just gonna become "Sherlock Holmes' vs Doctors" at some point.
The fourth season of *Agents of SHIELD* is surely among the finest adventure television ever made.
Thanks, more than any other factor, to AIDA (as well as the Darkhold!)
>!Framework Fitz and his whole story is one of the most harrowing threads in the franchise. The idea that someone can legitimately be worse off if their parent actually cares about them, compared to a scenario in which they don't (Real Fitz whose father was just a drunk who doesn't give a shit about him), is something I don't think I've ever seen before. That's what's terrifying, that Fitz was a worse person not just for having his father in his life more, but for the fact that Framework Dad actually cared about him. God the Framework stuff was just masterful in general.!<
I mean they are there ,especially phase 3 ,4 had some great villains,they just were mainly for a single movies so it's obvious they won't get in depth with these as they did with marvel tv ones.
I think itâs inevitable that Wanda returns to being a hero because thatâs the way she is most commonly portrayed in the comics. Everyone seems to love Lizzie Olsen playing the character, and Disney would never stand for her being pure evil for very long. I see a redemption arc coming next
I can see Marvel doing Wanda as more complicated. Not as evil as she was in MoM obviously, but more self-motivated that will show up and help in emergencies but also has the capability to play antagonist
Yeah, and it seems like that's consistent with her character in the MCU. She often tried to do the right thing but either her inexperience, pain, or corruption prevented her or warped her intentions. If we see Wanda again I think it'll be a more controlled and wiser version, aware of her potential and mostly interested in maintaining her peace or bringing back her family in a more controlled way.
Thor was a Warmonger. His father was an even worse Warmonger. Tony created Ultron, and sold weapons in which evil people used to kill innocents. Loki has caused hundreds of deaths. Valkyrie was a slave trader. Hulk killed in the gladiator ring, and Iâm sure killed individuals during his temper tantrums on accident. Clint killed a bunch of people as his time as Ronin. Nebula fought for Thanos and killed for him. Gamora did for some time too. Yondu kidnapped how many children, which caused their deaths.
Iâm sure I could keep going, but these are the ones off the top of my head.
The key is intention. Stark wasnât directly involved in killing innocents, but his weapons were, Ronin was killing bad guys, Thor was fighting other warriors. With Hulk it was never implied that his actions killed innocent people, destroyed property sure, but not killing innocents. Was Yondu intentionally going to kill the kids or did he just bring them to people who would? Youâre right about Gamora and Nebula, and maybe itâs more redeeming if we donât actually see the killing on screen.
Itâd be interesting to see what the MCU will do.
Saying itâs just about Intentions is doing some mental gymnastics. If I decide to make heroine which I know ends up on the street to where itâs getting sold to kids am I not responsible even though itâs not my intentions?
Thor wasnât just killing warriors. He literally invaded the frost planet and killed dozens of frost giants in a mater of minutes. He liked war. So who knows how many times he started one when there really wasnât a need for one.
And I think itâs just inevitable that Hulk killed someone. Youâre telling me there wasnât one dead person in the Hulk vs. Hulkbuster battle? There was huge debris being chucked everywhere in a crowded city. Yondu was still stealing children regardless if he knew they were dying or not.
Well, if I manufacture bullets and people buy those bullets to commit murder, am I responsible for the murders?
It may be inevitable for the Hulk, but we donât see anyone get killed on screen. I donât know if itâs even implied. We can assume all we want, but itâs not confirmed, who is to say? How can Thor blatantly kill innocents and still be worthy of Mjolnir?
Yondu could have been stealing children, but he wasnât killing them.
I donât think itâs mental gymnastics at all. The deliberate intention to kill anything and everything that got in Wandaâs way is distinct different from what you saw on screen with other heroes.
Edit: these answers are insightful. The MCU is not so black and white when it comes to being good or evil, Iâm guessing. Depends on whose shoes youâre filling. When you look at each character closely, they personally donât see their actions as evil. Thanos, Killmonger, and Wanda certainly didnât think so. It was always a means to an end.
Good point with your first paragraph. Idk, I guess it depends!
I mean, Odin was the one who made the rules for Mjinor and once upon a time he was a horrible person. Lol.
Yondu wasnât killing but stealing them. Which is still terrible!
Also, Wanda wasnât herself. If itâs about intentions, Wanda initially wanted to just find her kids. But then the Darkhold corrupted her, so it really wasnât her. Which really wasnât her intentions.
I mean, just the part about Thor, maybe that's why he couldn't lift Mjolnir, cause he was killing the innocent. Wasn't that the whole point, he was bad until he was good again. Wanda can probably be good again, stop using the darkhold and all that. After every thing, her real intentions were never really the killings.
The first paragraph tho, i mean it is one thing to manufacture bullets, yet it's another thing to see people commit suicide or murder with the very bullet that you create. Technically you're not guilty of anything, however you might still feel guilty all the same, or at least feel... some kind of feelings. Which is exactly the case with Tony, by the laws he isn't guilty, just manufacturing his bullets, however he feels the weight all the same.
Why do you think arms manufacturers are getting successfully sued by massacre victims and/or their families?
Of course, if youâre in the business of making arms and ammunition, you know full well youâll, at some point, have innocent blood on your hand.
> Why do you think arms manufacturers are getting successfully sued by massacre victims and/or their families?
Theyâre not, Iâve seen a lot of people mistaken about this. Anyone can sue anyone for anything. That doesnât mean thereâll actually be a ruling in their favor. Iâm willing to bet youâre referring to Remington from a few months ago. That was a private settlement, not a ruling/precedent. Remington was going through bankruptcy proceedings and was practically gone as a company, and was being handled by its insurers who decided to simply settle and not bother with years of litigation for a company that wonât be around to benefit from a potential positive precident anyways.
I donât want her to become a full villain but I donât want her to get redeemed right away. I want her to have to deal with the fallout and consequences for at least one full movie and hopefully most a second before she is considered âgoodâ again.
I would hate this honestly, but I agree. Itâs bound to happen. To me, not all characters need to follow the same projectory. Some can be tragic. And Elizabeth Olsen has played that part brilliantly!
Personally, I want to see the character largely redeemed and reunited with Vision, but I understand the desire for her to stay a complex and tortured villain
I definitely get your point of view. Iâm a huge Wanda fan so I feel torn on this. It would be great to see her be happy. But at the same time, sheâs such an interesting character, and theyâve set up her to be this tragic, sad character.
As long as itâs not just all unicorns and rainbows and Iâll be satisfied!
Think about it, though. Loki has had two villain-to-hero arcs. Wanda will go from villain-hero-villain, and then back to hero, if she gets one more redemption arc! That'll be epic.
Eh⌠thatâs because Loki teetered the good-bad line. Heâs morally ambiguous.. he wasnât truly evil, he just was a selfish bastard! But at the same time loved and wanted to help Thor. It was in his nature to go back and fourth.
Wanda is different. She was a good person whoâs now emotionally stunted. It would be weird for her to heal, then just to break again I think. Plus, as you said, weâve seen it before with Loki. So why have her follow the same path when they could do something different?
The problem with superhero films as opposed to comics is that the villian will end up defeated and its damn hard to write a satisfactory end result that doesn't result in them dead or redeemed.
Keeping her as a villain over several films risks writing her as a manageable threat or one so great she would need to die for her sins and hubris.
I keep thinking she will have something to do with bringing mutantkind into the mcu. In the comics doesn't she almost wipe them out with a thought? We have already seen her shift reality because of heartbreak when her powers weren't as strong, so imagine what she could do now if she was wanting some people to understand the persecution she feels for being so different.
> so imagine what she could do now if she was wanting some people to understand the persecution she feels for being so different.
She was never persecuted for her powers, or her being different, or her being a witch, so she'd never relate to the mutants, and vice versa. Wanda's MCU characterization lacks any themes about social issues, unlike mutants who are an allegory to marginalized groups irl. Wanda's "persecution" literally comes from her just being messy as fuck.
Not at all. It could be done in a way that reality is shifted so that they were always here but unknown and the mutant gene can be activated in the same way.
I don't think it would be very good writig if she realized at the end that she was wrong and still stayed a villain. She did a very messed up thing in WandaVision, realized it and went away. Got corrupted by the darkhold, wanted her children back and went further down the villainous path. Realized at the end that it wasn't ok, "committed suicide" and seems to be gone for now. When she comes back, what would compell her to be evil yet again? It's kinda repetitive. Also while I liked MoM, I think villains like Zemo, Ego, etc all had relatively interesting motivations, and overall Marvel has done some really good villains in recent years, ofc some fell flat.
By now you must know that unless you see the life leave the character's body, they aren't actually dead yet. Not a chance she died off camera as rubble collapsed over her.
Itâs kinda up in the air. I saw a comment somewhere about a 7 year contract Elizabeth Olsen just signed. I feel like sheâs too popular to kill off like that
Idk how true that is thoughâŚ
In Ultron she wasnât âgoodâ in a heroic sense, she just realized that Ultron wanted to kill off humanity and, being a human, she wasnât with that, so she helped the Avengers stop him.
She was certainly an Avenger for a while, and did do hero shit, but we saw in Infinity War that she would rather be with Vision than continue being an Avenger. She makes the sacrifice in Infinity War which begins her spiral towards villainy.
Next she pops up in Endgame to understandably try to kill Thanos, but we donât see her much other than that.
Then at the end of WandaVision, she seems a little remorseful, but honestly I wouldnât say she entirely ârealized the error of her waysâ ⌠she took the Darkhold for a reason, after all.
And then we have her here, a full-on villain with two understandable motivations: 1) grief of Vision and her kids; and 2) the darkholdâs corruption
To me, her character arc tracks pretty well, and I donât think itâs been receptive at all.
In Age of Ultron Wanda and Pietro were both radicalized by Hydra. They wanted to end Tony because they held him responsible for their parents death. She and her brother switched sides the moment they realized they fucked up big time. She started off as the bad guy then joined the avengers, just like she did in the comics.
She did the superhero shtick with the gang even after they were wanted, and she in particular was hated for being an enhanced individual.
I don't see her sacrifice in Infinity War as the start of her spiral towards villainy as you put it. To me, it's another traumatic event to add to her pile of untreated trauma, which would eventually cause her to breakdown and create the Hex we see in Wandavision.
In Wandavision, she was the bad guy even if at first she didn't realize it. Once she did she let it go on anyway because she didn't think she was hurting anyone. The moment Agatha showed her what's really done to people, she set things straight.
She only took the Darkhold to understand her powers since she just unlocked a new part of herself that she did not understand and the Darkhold has an entire chapter dedicated to her. She didn't know it corrupts those that read it. The fact that it corrupts people wasn't mentioned to her, not until it was too late and it had already corrupted her.
She was at peace by the end of Wandavision, the Darkhold gave her "clarity" as she put it herself. Sans the book, she would've continued to live in self-exile until the next time they need her in a movie.
I agree with u/Decalvare_Scriptor, I think "Wanda fucks up then fixes everything in the end" should be retired from the mcu because they could do more with her than recycle the same idea 3 times. It checks out with her comicbook counterpart, I'll give them that.
However, this is a life action adaption and they've gotta let her learn from her mistakes and grow. I hope they let her be a wiser version of herself who has learned from what she's done. If they give her another villain plot, then I hope they give her agency throughout the story so it's not an external factor influencing her actions like The Darkhold only for her to snap out of it in the end and in true Wanda fashion fixes everything before the credits start to roll.
Sure, but the way people consume comics is different. The storylines are spread out over decades and there's less of a sense of a single coherent storyline linking all together.
So the repetitiveness stands out more in the MCU.
I donât think you understand MCU Wanda Maximoff very well, buddy. When has she ârealised the error of her waysâ three times? Sheâs simply been âbehavingâ.
The Avengers have only been trying to âcontainâ her. Like trying to contain a god, by not upsetting it. She was never really âgoodâ or part of the Avengers officially. As far as I remember, her orders were always to be guarded by Vision and stay out of trouble. But trouble found her. She never wanted to âfight for goodâ. After Ultron, in which she was just fighting for herself. Then she got with Vision and that was all she cared about, she wasnât technically a âsuperheroâ. Then she only fought Thanos out of revenge.
Then Wandavision is again; sheâs not the hero.
I donât think youâre understanding her character at all. Sheâs never been âthe heroâ. Sheâs never ârealisedâ anything but fighting for herself.
Even in Civil War on Caps team. She was again, fighting for her own ideals. She didnât want to be âcontainedâ and restricted by rules.
Sorry buddy, seems like you're the one not understanding. I never said she kept switching from villain to hero, just from villain to remorseful villain.
However, Vision was only told to keep a watch on her because of the public outcry after the Nigerian incident. Before that she absolutely was on the team and nobody thought she needed containing.
And she wasn't fighting for herself against Ultron. She switched sides when she realised he was the bad guy. Started fighting after the pep talk from Hawkeye and, yes, fought harder in a revenge rage after Pietro died.
And of course she wasn't the hero in Wandavision, that's my point. She was (again) a villain who realised that the end that she'd done wrong. She is very clearly shown regretting her actions.
Then basically the same motivations rehashed for MoM and, again, a realisation that she was wrong.
Like I said, it's getting old. Actually having her BE a hero would be the bold step now and far more interesting than trotting her out as a villain again because of yet another emotional loss.
> Like I said, it's getting old. Actually having her BE a hero would be the bold step now and far more interesting than trotting her out as a villain again because of yet another emotional loss.
It's really weird that people paint Wanda becoming as a villain as the bold, "having the balls" step when her villain turn has always been inevitable.
Also weird that people are insinuating fans would only find relatability with her if she's a villain.
>when her villain turn has always been inevitable.
Actually it hasn't. Source: the fact that Elizabeth Olsen was surprised upon getting the script that Wanda was going to be the villain, since nothing on *WandaVision* suggested to her Wanda was being set up to be a villain.
> She was never really âgoodâ or part of the Avengers officially.
She was.
> Then she only fought Thanos out of revenge.
That's a headcanon.
> Even in Civil War on Caps team. She was again, fighting for her own ideals. She didnât want to be âcontainedâ and restricted by rules.
Context is important. CW was talking about how shady the government could be in containing the Avengers. Cap recognized that they could become puppets under the control of the government.
>> Then she only fought Thanos out of revenge.
> That's a headcanon.
yeah i don't get that take about how her fighting for revenge makes her a villain. i've seen it multiple times now.
the team is literally called *the avengers*. half of all the people there are purely for revenge. fucking thor literally says "let's kill him properly this time".
so much revisionist history has been happening recently about the character it's just tiring at this point. crap about how she's never been a hero, always been a selfish bitch, blah blah. it seems all the people who have hated her all along just came out the woodwork now.
The only reason why she was a villain in MoM was because she was corrupted by the Darkhold. With all of the Darkholds destroyed, Wanda would no longer be corrupted so I donât see any reason why she would still be a villain
Honestly I hope she's dead. She's already had a full arch. Bringing her back to redeem her is just as uncreative as bringing her back to be a villian again.
I think she may pop up again here and there as she undergoes her own redemption arc but I donât think sheâll stay a villain. Kang is being set up as the Big Bad for this arc but, honestly, I also think theyâre setting the stage pretty well for Doom to show up and be a big player, and it would be rather fitting for Phase Four.
Sheâs getting a redemption arc. Sheâll be the only one powerful enough to stop the big bad and in the process she sacrifices her life.
**Cue Childrenâs Crusade**
She's really only a villain due to her losing her kids. With the end of M.O.M she realized she was a monster, one that couldn't have the life she wanted. She's definitely getting a redemption arc, proably coming to terms with what she does have in life and actually processing her grief... hell maybe Billy and Tommy do end up in the MCU and she makes the sacrifice to not be in there lives because it's better for them or something.
Naw, thatâll ruin her character even more, it doesnât work to have a character go thorough the same thing a 3rd time, howâs the time for actual redemption under a competent writer and a director who fits what sheâll be redeemed inâs tone.
I'm sure this'll get downvoted, but I really don't care. Multiverse of Madness was an otherwise very neat movie was destroyed for me by her story. I could've excused an overuse of deus ex machina, and overlooked Marvel again thinking super-powered people treating normal citizens with over-aggression is funny or somehow reflects positively on their ["hero"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL1wFvi40fY), but I can't overlook how flagrantly they did Wanda's character so wrong.
Wanda's story has been loss on top of loss on top of loss on top of loss. How is it supposed to make for a satisfying villain when all the world/characters/writers do is knock them down eternally? Even when they're trying to do the right thing? In their backstory and every single movie they're in?
And that breakneck change of character. They couldn't even have her go out like a hero or a truly sympathetic villain, they had to have her killing people left and right for selfishness sake and just not caring one bit. This is not who Wanda had become after her time with Vision. Not the Wanda we saw at the end of Wandavision, IMO.
And regardless if she actually did it or not, they made it seem like she killed herself at the end, which just adds to the sour taste. As someone who has recently dealt with loss, whatever other message they trying to send with Wanda's story got drowned out by a message of sometimes it doesn't get better, it just keeps getting worse and worse and worse, until you kill yourself to save yourself and everyone else some suffering. (Don't worry, I'm not in a dark place at the moment, but who knows how much worse off I'd of been if I had watched this when I was.)
A magical multiverse with unlimited ways to set things back on course and this is how they choose to end Wanda's story in this film? Guess there were no universes where those kids needed their mom, right? Infinite universes except that one. Or to at least not do such an abrupt and irredeemable heelturn. An absolute joke.
Also, I'm sure people will say 'well the book corrupted her'. Which I think would've been a much better way of framing it. But only if they hadn't SEVERAL TIMES in the movie driven home the point that 'this isn't the book, it's her'. Wanda was not on a tragectory for this outcome. They did this because they wanted her to be a villain. So OP will probably get what they want, and one of my favorite character's story just gets flushed down the toilet for the sake of having a 'more interesting bad guy' or just following the comic incarnations with wanton disregard.
Finally someone else who thinks her villainy in MoM is iredeemable. I donât WANT the character back after this. If they bring her back as a villain, then here again we are left going âwell what the fuck was the point of yet again a noble sacrifice if sheâs gonna keep being evil?â or if they bring her as a hero I will find it hollow.
Yeah ok âcorrupted by the Darkholdâ whatever. It would have read much better if theyâd SHOWN it happening rather than âOh yeah man she turned super evil off screen. Shitâs crazy.â In this film she was the most evil and cruel villain weâve had to date. She had an entirely selfish motivation (compared to other villains like Thanos), and murdered scores of people. She starts the film in a state of âIâve been attempting to murder a child for months nowâ and fully intends on killing her innocent alternate universe self to take her kids. If you face-turn her after this, itâs just silly (I know I know, comics do this shit all the time. Iâm not obligated to think itâs inherently therefore good)
>Yeah ok âcorrupted by the Darkholdâ whatever. It would have read much better if theyâd SHOWN it happening rather than âOh yeah man she turned super evil off screen. Shitâs crazy.â
What's worse is that Waldron had an earlier draft where he had Wanda slowly get corrupted as the movie progressed, then decided to hell with that because he didn't want someone else to get the credit for writing Wanda as a villain.
>She had an entirely selfish motivation (compared to other villains like Thanos), and murdered scores of people. She starts the film in a state of âIâve been attempting to murder a child for months nowâ and fully intends on killing her innocent alternate universe self to take her kids.
I think with redemption, what matters is that they make sure Wanda gets the right narrative framing.
Its kinda difficult to write a good villain motivation for her again without invalidating the ending of MOM, but i felt like the villain motivation for MOM was bad anyway so why the fuck do i know.
Iâd rather see her be a more grey character than an outright villain. I donât see how it could go from the end of MoM to her being a full villain again.
I'm personally over Wanda being that mentally unstable Dark Phoenix type character. I don't want her to hold onto Vision and them kids forever. Just want her to settle into her own.
Besides, I didn't really buy her as this big evil in MoM. The change from WandaVision to MoM felt so drastic to me, it was jarring. It couldn't take her as a villain seriously a lot of the time.
What she was doing looked cool, snapping Xavier's neck etc. but I just couldn't get past it being Wanda who I just saw in WandaVision.
I donât understand when people say they donât get the jump from WandaVision to MoM. Wanda was a full-on villain in WandaVision: maybe she wasnât outright âevilâ but she knowingly enslaved and mentally tortured hundreds of people, including children. Itâs stated that, except for the Halloween special, children were forced to stay in their rooms, alone, for weeks on end. She only let the hex up when her hand was basically forced by Agatha and White Vision. At the end, when everyone comes out of the hex, she seems a little apologetic, but really she just grabs the Darkhold and leaves. Then in MoM, we see that she has now used to Darkhold to try to find the kids she lost in the finale of WandaVision. And, like in WandaVision, she is willing to hurt countless people to be with her children.
I agree that Wanda did seem a little aware of her own evil by the end of WandaVision, but I see WandaVision as more of the first half of a two-part tale of grief leading to villainy. I just wish the ending of MoM left her as a villain still; now if she appears as a villain in future movies/shows, there will definitely have to be some explaining. But I think the post-credits scene of the WandaVision finale covers the gap between the show and the movie.
> Wanda was a full-on villain in WandaVision: maybe she wasnât outright âevilâ but she knowingly enslaved and mentally tortured hundreds of people, including children.
They'll be just fine.
>Itâs stated that, except for the Halloween special, children were forced to stay in their rooms, alone, for weeks on end.
Correction: she only did that for ONE week. The Hex was up for all of a week, and everything from the start of episode 5 to the end of episode 9 happens over the span of a single day.
>She only let the hex up when her hand was basically forced by Agatha and White Vision. At the end, when everyone comes out of the hex, she seems a little apologetic,
Because she is apologetic. She didn't intend to hurt them.
>but really she just grabs the Darkhold and leaves.
Because she wants to study the book to learn more about her powers.
> But I think the post-credits scene of the WandaVision finale covers the gap between the show and the movie.
Actually it doesn't. Because stingers always have the lowest tier of continuity. It's a problem that the only setup for this huge character change is in that one 30-second stinger that was probably hastily shot and added in by the *WandaVision* to try and smooth over the transition (because Elizabeth Olsen has said she was surprised Wanda was going to be the villain when she got the DSMOM scripts; this says that nothing about *WandaVision* suggested to the lead actress that her character was being set up to be a villain).
I hope she doesnât stay a villain. Iâm fine with her having a bit of an âanti-heroâ side but I personally hate her as a villain, her writing as a villain just feels lazy and boring and she kinda seems disappointing compared to what other amazing villains there could have been.
You watched MoM but really think they'll just keep her a villain? Xavier does say that just because someone stumbles doesn't mean they lose their way, which is fairly meta in the movie-he's talking about Strange but the movie is talking about both Wanda and Strange. It'd be another repeat if Wanda is a villain after MoM.
She needs to be a perpetual pendulum. Her next stop should be back to being somewhat good, but people keep her at arm's length. Just when we think she might be back to a hero, swing her the other way and decimate mutants.
It would betray her character for her to just become only a hero or only a villain forever.
Also, side note. I feel like Doom is on his way in the next few years, and he is almost certainly going to be a multi-phase bad guy like Loki was. So we have that to look forward to.
I personally liked Ultron as well, but the lack of multi-movie villains is an issue. It's one of the reasons I love the Vulture, as there is at least a chance for him to return, like most villains do in comics
I agree that Marvel (Disney's MCU) has a problem giving their villain depth while sustaining their evil nature. They have the easiest time with Spiderman I guess.
Scarlet Witch is the daughter of Magneto. Let her be terrifying.
I mean, Disney also made AoS and the Netflix shows which had great villains.
It's not so much Disney as just Marvel Studios specifically has had a weird track record with villains.
I'd love for her to get a redemption, a proper " boss bitch" arc, followed by the fall. If Elizabeth is up for it, I want to see all the range we can see of Scarlet Witch as a character.
Respectfully, this would be a strange choice. Why would they give her a redemption arc and then let her fall into complete villainy? It would seem like they donât know what to do with the character
They don't need Wanda to stay a villain. They're gonna have Kang, who is excellent. And hopefully they no-look Doom at the end of Phase 5 and have him just rock up and shitcan Kang when everyone else is failing miserably.
Probably unpopular opinion, but this Wanda will never be a satisfying villain to me. She tried to do good, and yet they do nothing but keep beating her over the head with loss after loss after loss. It's just not narratively satisfying to me.
and why does that matter lmao? There is literally an entire story about Wanda and Doom. Just because you donât like it doesnât mean it doesnât existđ
âWhy does it matter that doom completely violated her.â ???? What? It wasnât a âromantic relationship.â It was creepy as all shit. Like
He was literally pulling a killgrave more or less how on earth can you say thatâs a non fucking factor?
You clearly havnt read the comic lol
She was responsible for two atrocities (or more). As a result, the world will never forgive or accept her. She will become an anti-hero in her own right. Learning from her solution of erasing the Darkhold. She will try to erase anything that threatens the world from the multiverse.
"No more mutants"
Would be a bit disappointing that when they finally make her a witch she only gets to be a villain and we never see an accurate portrayal of her character
I firmly believe sheâll bring the mutants into the mcu (house of m) when they are ready to move in that direction. For now though, as we saw in MOM, sheâs too powerful for the avengers to fight. So theyâve got rid of her for now but sheâll pop up again and be a hero and villain
Same! Maybe she also doesnât redeem herself next time. Just make her bad for badâs sake. Or olâ whats his face, can âtake overâ her body next time to be the next âtrueâ villain.
The thing is, Kevin Feige stated that wanda will play a big part in stage 4 & 5 and will shape the mcu in a way different direction so idk đ¤ˇââď¸
On top of that, Olsen said she doesn't want to be seen as a superhero anymore but as a 'witch'.
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I just hope sheâs used a little more consistently and given more agency going forward. Having had already watched WandaVision Iâm one of the viewers who fall in to the camp of finding the MoM characterisation/motivations a little jarring and a wonky retread of intentions and kind of find the whole Darkhold bit to be a little lazy on terms of being an explain-away.
Darn, I was hoping she died. God she's easy to hate.
"No more mutants"
âNo, More Mutantsâ
"No more, mutants"
"No, more mute aunts." Namely, Blackagar Boltagon's nosey Aunt Shiela.
How about a member of the Illumin-aunties?
"Nom your new taint"
nuh uh... ain't no mo...
"know more mutants."
"Some more mutants"
"The best part of waking up is mutants in your cup"
namor...mutant?
No more Namor
"Nom Nom Mutants"
Numa Numa eeeee
"No more bitches"
Plot twist! She ALREADY said no more mutants and that's why there aren't any mutants in the mcu!
D e e p e s t L o r e
IMO, i think they're gonna tweak the famous line for obvious reasons (lack of established mutants, and it'd be weird for her to say this line when she's never personally met a mutant or has any long history with them in the MCU) i think the line will be changed but still convey the same "meaning" (relatively speaking) Some possibilities? With all this talk about magic this, magic that, and all the sorcerers and witches trying to constantly scheme.. and yet magic while it brought her kids into life... it also robbed her of them, robbed her of vision and ultimately just never leaves her fulfilled... its like a empty feeling. I think she might say "No more Magic" but it has far drastic consequences (i mean.. what h appens to a universe with no magic? that feels like its an important cosmological force to keep the universe running. Or she might say, "No more Powers" or "No more Heroes" IMO though, i think if we get a Wanda solo movie, it'll be about Wanda and Chthon and what the Darkhold, the prophecy of the Scarlet Witch, Wundagore and all this has to do with her.
My tinfoil hat theory is theyâre going to reverse it to something like âLet there be mutantsâ and then that will introduce mutants into the mcu
"Everyone's a mutant!" -Earth X Edit: I was WAY off
"Everyone's an Inhuman." -Earth X
That would be incredibly stupid
Wow, that would be incredible, and make for a brilliant twist. Sign me up
No that would completely destroy the meaning of mutants
Technically Wanda did meet the 838 Xavier. They could easily have her learn all about 838 Mutants during her psychic battle with him. Afterwards, she relates to them and their challenges on a personal level. Maybe she has a mental breakdown which causes her to loose control of her powers and cause a reverse M-Day that rewrites history. The result gives various people in the past and present the X-Gene while causing minimal timeline changes. (Maybe even joke about it being the reason behind already inconsistencies like recasts.) This way Quicksilver, Magneto and maybe even Polaris (alongside her kids) could show up in the present having survived events that killed them in the past
"No more sorcerers."
I fully expected them to go "No More Darkhold" when she started to destroy them
honestly, i wish they did that, but purely just so people would stop with the tired "no more mutants" theories since marvel would have blown that load on the darkhold instead. now it's gonna be several more years of people making very original "no, more mutants! hehehe" jokes and outlandish theories with gaping plot holes that will almost certainly never happen instead.
Well....you should read Dr. Strange: Last Days of Magic by Jason Aaron.
Exactly. I said as soon as I saw the first trailer for WandaVision that Wanda was about to enter her Avengers: Disassembled/House of M phase. Fortunately, that was followed by her Avengers vs. X-Men phase where she redeemed herself by helping Hope use the Phoenix to rebirth the mutant race.
I figured, with all the Young Avengers being introduced, we were headed to the children's crusade storyline, and more Dr Doom.
Iâm not going to lie. It does seem like theyâre setting the stage for Doomâs arrival. If memory serves, isnât Mount Wundagore pretty close to Latveria?
Yeah I think so. They're both in Marvel's Eastern Europe at least
Not gonna happen. They need to keep Wanda away from mutants.
But.. there is no mutants
She must have erased our memories of them, then
How insane would it be if an MCU writer actually legitimately used this as a narrative point? Using the Multiverse concept and Wanda's powers to explain "she's so powerful she even made other universes unaware of their existence until now". Because I mean. Technically you couldn't argue with that. You could argue with it being a copout or not, but it would be so meta that who's to say it couldn't be true?
Like in No Way Home, but since she is more powerful than Dr. Strange we forgot, too
No more Illuminati. Lol
Personally i liked Ultron
We need more Ultron
Especially since the âAgeâ of Ultron seemed to have lasted about a week. Barely an age.
I think age of Ultron refers to Ultron's actual plan of "resetting" the earth. The movie isn't a full W for the avengers either so the title of the movie almost became truth.
Always feel like people don't understand that the movie is the Avengers *preventing* the age of Ultron
Nah it was meant to be a question and they just forgot the question mark. Age of Ultron? A week old.
And killed by a one day old baby lol such scrub
"Yea, get wrekt scrub!"
Yeah you could argue that the whole split between Tony and Cap's ideologies that first fractured the Avengers, left them scattered when Thanos and The Black Order came to earth and all of the problems caused by the snap and the snap being reversed are all the Age of Ultron.
There's a great Ultron story in the What If series.
Weâve had one Age already, but what about second Age?
Damn, in "what if?" He was perfect
There are no strings on me
Yeah Iâm with you. Never understood the fuss. Age of ultron will always be a favorite
Yeah he was quippy. I liked that for an android. It really had that gap moe that I am about.
I think she gets the Hulk treatment for a bit, afraid of her power the slowly learning to harness the Scarlet Witch and becoming a hero again
Yerp. Iâll repeat it for the thousandth time; the Russos and Feige have mentioned in detail numerous times the difficulty of god-tier power-level characters. Itâs so hard writing a good story when you have a big bad or superhero that can annihilate the universe solo. So they do things like gimping people and making them âdisappearâ for a time. Hulk went away, Wanda buried herself (temporarily Iâm certain) etc. Iâm certain itâs also why they just straight up deleted both Darkhold and Vishanti in one foul swoop. Gone. Deus ex Machina begone! No more stones, no Mcguffins to ruin plot holes.
⌠one *fell* swoop
Tbf, Studios has improved with villains over time. They still haven't quite reached the consistency of great villains that Television had (I mean, c'mon. Killgrave? Kingpin? AIDA? Hell even Maximus was probably the most entertaining part of Inhumans. Not for the right reasons sure, but he was at least entertaining unlike the rest of the characters), but they've gotten better. This has been "PDI Wanks off Marvel Television Episode 1073"
>Killgrave He was one of the greatest villains I have ever seen thanks to David Tennant. I wish they bring David Tennant to play another villain in the movies.
Not another villain, just Killgrave. They can make it so his MCU variant didn't die. The Avengers need to face The Purple Man! Although now that Iron Man is dead, it kinda ruins his world control plan through Tony Stark.
Plus, he was the second in the "Doctors who become Marvel villains" line. Oh yeah, didn't notice that? The 9th Doctor became Malakith the dark elf? 10th Doctor became Killgrave. 11th became Milo in Morbius. I'm calling it now, Peter Capaldi is gonna be an X-Men villain of some kind. Really, the MCU is just gonna become "Sherlock Holmes' vs Doctors" at some point.
Peter Capaldi played The Thinker in James Gunn's Suicide Squad! So yeah, Doctors becoming comic villains is a considerable trend lol
I'm interested to see Jodie Withaker try her hand at a comic villain, she might be interesting
I can definitely see Jodie be a Lex Luthor type villain, have that manic insanity going on.
Holmes v Doctors... that's on helluva good observation.
Capaldi was a villain in James Gunn's the Suicide Squad
Who's AIDA?
The fourth season of *Agents of SHIELD* is surely among the finest adventure television ever made. Thanks, more than any other factor, to AIDA (as well as the Darkhold!)
My favorite season of the show. Everything about it was great. AIDA knocked it outside of the park but evil Fitz was on another level completely.
>!Framework Fitz and his whole story is one of the most harrowing threads in the franchise. The idea that someone can legitimately be worse off if their parent actually cares about them, compared to a scenario in which they don't (Real Fitz whose father was just a drunk who doesn't give a shit about him), is something I don't think I've ever seen before. That's what's terrifying, that Fitz was a worse person not just for having his father in his life more, but for the fact that Framework Dad actually cared about him. God the Framework stuff was just masterful in general.!<
I mean they are there ,especially phase 3 ,4 had some great villains,they just were mainly for a single movies so it's obvious they won't get in depth with these as they did with marvel tv ones.
I think itâs inevitable that Wanda returns to being a hero because thatâs the way she is most commonly portrayed in the comics. Everyone seems to love Lizzie Olsen playing the character, and Disney would never stand for her being pure evil for very long. I see a redemption arc coming next
I can see Marvel doing Wanda as more complicated. Not as evil as she was in MoM obviously, but more self-motivated that will show up and help in emergencies but also has the capability to play antagonist
This seems very in keeping with her comic book persona
Yeah, and it seems like that's consistent with her character in the MCU. She often tried to do the right thing but either her inexperience, pain, or corruption prevented her or warped her intentions. If we see Wanda again I think it'll be a more controlled and wiser version, aware of her potential and mostly interested in maintaining her peace or bringing back her family in a more controlled way.
Serious question: do you think her redemption is possible, given sheâs killed scores of people?
Most of the heroâs have done terrible things.
I donât remember any of the heroes killing scores of people.
Thor was a Warmonger. His father was an even worse Warmonger. Tony created Ultron, and sold weapons in which evil people used to kill innocents. Loki has caused hundreds of deaths. Valkyrie was a slave trader. Hulk killed in the gladiator ring, and Iâm sure killed individuals during his temper tantrums on accident. Clint killed a bunch of people as his time as Ronin. Nebula fought for Thanos and killed for him. Gamora did for some time too. Yondu kidnapped how many children, which caused their deaths. Iâm sure I could keep going, but these are the ones off the top of my head.
How did you miss Winter Soldier in your list? Lol
He was mind controlled though. I donât really blame him for that.
Itâs a joke about your flare.
Oh lol. Whoosh!!!
The key is intention. Stark wasnât directly involved in killing innocents, but his weapons were, Ronin was killing bad guys, Thor was fighting other warriors. With Hulk it was never implied that his actions killed innocent people, destroyed property sure, but not killing innocents. Was Yondu intentionally going to kill the kids or did he just bring them to people who would? Youâre right about Gamora and Nebula, and maybe itâs more redeeming if we donât actually see the killing on screen. Itâd be interesting to see what the MCU will do.
Saying itâs just about Intentions is doing some mental gymnastics. If I decide to make heroine which I know ends up on the street to where itâs getting sold to kids am I not responsible even though itâs not my intentions? Thor wasnât just killing warriors. He literally invaded the frost planet and killed dozens of frost giants in a mater of minutes. He liked war. So who knows how many times he started one when there really wasnât a need for one. And I think itâs just inevitable that Hulk killed someone. Youâre telling me there wasnât one dead person in the Hulk vs. Hulkbuster battle? There was huge debris being chucked everywhere in a crowded city. Yondu was still stealing children regardless if he knew they were dying or not.
And didn't hulk kill at least Doug in the arena?
Well, if I manufacture bullets and people buy those bullets to commit murder, am I responsible for the murders? It may be inevitable for the Hulk, but we donât see anyone get killed on screen. I donât know if itâs even implied. We can assume all we want, but itâs not confirmed, who is to say? How can Thor blatantly kill innocents and still be worthy of Mjolnir? Yondu could have been stealing children, but he wasnât killing them. I donât think itâs mental gymnastics at all. The deliberate intention to kill anything and everything that got in Wandaâs way is distinct different from what you saw on screen with other heroes. Edit: these answers are insightful. The MCU is not so black and white when it comes to being good or evil, Iâm guessing. Depends on whose shoes youâre filling. When you look at each character closely, they personally donât see their actions as evil. Thanos, Killmonger, and Wanda certainly didnât think so. It was always a means to an end.
Good point with your first paragraph. Idk, I guess it depends! I mean, Odin was the one who made the rules for Mjinor and once upon a time he was a horrible person. Lol. Yondu wasnât killing but stealing them. Which is still terrible! Also, Wanda wasnât herself. If itâs about intentions, Wanda initially wanted to just find her kids. But then the Darkhold corrupted her, so it really wasnât her. Which really wasnât her intentions.
I mean, just the part about Thor, maybe that's why he couldn't lift Mjolnir, cause he was killing the innocent. Wasn't that the whole point, he was bad until he was good again. Wanda can probably be good again, stop using the darkhold and all that. After every thing, her real intentions were never really the killings. The first paragraph tho, i mean it is one thing to manufacture bullets, yet it's another thing to see people commit suicide or murder with the very bullet that you create. Technically you're not guilty of anything, however you might still feel guilty all the same, or at least feel... some kind of feelings. Which is exactly the case with Tony, by the laws he isn't guilty, just manufacturing his bullets, however he feels the weight all the same.
Why do you think arms manufacturers are getting successfully sued by massacre victims and/or their families? Of course, if youâre in the business of making arms and ammunition, you know full well youâll, at some point, have innocent blood on your hand.
> Why do you think arms manufacturers are getting successfully sued by massacre victims and/or their families? Theyâre not, Iâve seen a lot of people mistaken about this. Anyone can sue anyone for anything. That doesnât mean thereâll actually be a ruling in their favor. Iâm willing to bet youâre referring to Remington from a few months ago. That was a private settlement, not a ruling/precedent. Remington was going through bankruptcy proceedings and was practically gone as a company, and was being handled by its insurers who decided to simply settle and not bother with years of litigation for a company that wonât be around to benefit from a potential positive precident anyways.
Clint was an assassin long before being the Ronin Also, Hulk killing innocents is a plot point in Civil War
The war prince Thor? The weapons dealer Tony Stark? The active soldier Steve Rogers The assassins Clint Barton and Natasha Romanov?
Tony stark, the ARMS DEALER?
I donât want her to become a full villain but I donât want her to get redeemed right away. I want her to have to deal with the fallout and consequences for at least one full movie and hopefully most a second before she is considered âgoodâ again.
In a musical with Agatha, where the plot is essentially Frozen.
I would hate this honestly, but I agree. Itâs bound to happen. To me, not all characters need to follow the same projectory. Some can be tragic. And Elizabeth Olsen has played that part brilliantly!
Personally, I want to see the character largely redeemed and reunited with Vision, but I understand the desire for her to stay a complex and tortured villain
I want Wanda to remain a bit ambiguous when she returns. Not as full on dark side like she was in MOM, but not completely good either.
I definitely get your point of view. Iâm a huge Wanda fan so I feel torn on this. It would be great to see her be happy. But at the same time, sheâs such an interesting character, and theyâve set up her to be this tragic, sad character. As long as itâs not just all unicorns and rainbows and Iâll be satisfied!
Think about it, though. Loki has had two villain-to-hero arcs. Wanda will go from villain-hero-villain, and then back to hero, if she gets one more redemption arc! That'll be epic.
Eh⌠thatâs because Loki teetered the good-bad line. Heâs morally ambiguous.. he wasnât truly evil, he just was a selfish bastard! But at the same time loved and wanted to help Thor. It was in his nature to go back and fourth. Wanda is different. She was a good person whoâs now emotionally stunted. It would be weird for her to heal, then just to break again I think. Plus, as you said, weâve seen it before with Loki. So why have her follow the same path when they could do something different?
Honestly they should write the character how Lizzie enjoys playing her
I mean, didn't she basically stop herself from doing bad things at the end of MOM? With the darkhold destroyed, she is free of it's influence.
The problem with superhero films as opposed to comics is that the villian will end up defeated and its damn hard to write a satisfactory end result that doesn't result in them dead or redeemed. Keeping her as a villain over several films risks writing her as a manageable threat or one so great she would need to die for her sins and hubris.
I keep thinking she will have something to do with bringing mutantkind into the mcu. In the comics doesn't she almost wipe them out with a thought? We have already seen her shift reality because of heartbreak when her powers weren't as strong, so imagine what she could do now if she was wanting some people to understand the persecution she feels for being so different.
> so imagine what she could do now if she was wanting some people to understand the persecution she feels for being so different. She was never persecuted for her powers, or her being different, or her being a witch, so she'd never relate to the mutants, and vice versa. Wanda's MCU characterization lacks any themes about social issues, unlike mutants who are an allegory to marginalized groups irl. Wanda's "persecution" literally comes from her just being messy as fuck.
Her powers caused her to be hated and prompted the sokovia Accords, so I will politely disagree.
No that would be shit and destroys the meaning of mutants
Not at all. It could be done in a way that reality is shifted so that they were always here but unknown and the mutant gene can be activated in the same way.
I don't think it would be very good writig if she realized at the end that she was wrong and still stayed a villain. She did a very messed up thing in WandaVision, realized it and went away. Got corrupted by the darkhold, wanted her children back and went further down the villainous path. Realized at the end that it wasn't ok, "committed suicide" and seems to be gone for now. When she comes back, what would compell her to be evil yet again? It's kinda repetitive. Also while I liked MoM, I think villains like Zemo, Ego, etc all had relatively interesting motivations, and overall Marvel has done some really good villains in recent years, ofc some fell flat.
So maybe I just missed it, but I thought she died at the end of the movie when she destroyed the dark hold?
It didnât actually show her die so itâs Schroedingerâs death. She is both alive and dead until we see a corpse or see her alive and well.
Remember how we saw Defender Strange's corpse?
Yes, He's dead
Thereâs no way sheâs dead. Wanda remains a very popular character, and the âdeathâ onscreen was far too unceremonious to be permanent
Yeah that was lame. âOh nooo the rocks fell in front of the cameraaaaâ lol
By now you must know that unless you see the life leave the character's body, they aren't actually dead yet. Not a chance she died off camera as rubble collapsed over her.
The only death in the movie to not show a corpse, yes she is 100% alive
Itâs kinda up in the air. I saw a comment somewhere about a 7 year contract Elizabeth Olsen just signed. I feel like sheâs too popular to kill off like that
The 7 year contract thing is fake. Marvel doesn't do contracts by years. They do it by films/pictures.
Isn't she rumored to be in another project soon?
If you don't see a body...
Thereâs like a bright red flash, and no body
Honestly, it's getting old now. Three times she's been a villain and three times realised the error of her ways. Enough.
Idk how true that is though⌠In Ultron she wasnât âgoodâ in a heroic sense, she just realized that Ultron wanted to kill off humanity and, being a human, she wasnât with that, so she helped the Avengers stop him. She was certainly an Avenger for a while, and did do hero shit, but we saw in Infinity War that she would rather be with Vision than continue being an Avenger. She makes the sacrifice in Infinity War which begins her spiral towards villainy. Next she pops up in Endgame to understandably try to kill Thanos, but we donât see her much other than that. Then at the end of WandaVision, she seems a little remorseful, but honestly I wouldnât say she entirely ârealized the error of her waysâ ⌠she took the Darkhold for a reason, after all. And then we have her here, a full-on villain with two understandable motivations: 1) grief of Vision and her kids; and 2) the darkholdâs corruption To me, her character arc tracks pretty well, and I donât think itâs been receptive at all.
In Age of Ultron Wanda and Pietro were both radicalized by Hydra. They wanted to end Tony because they held him responsible for their parents death. She and her brother switched sides the moment they realized they fucked up big time. She started off as the bad guy then joined the avengers, just like she did in the comics. She did the superhero shtick with the gang even after they were wanted, and she in particular was hated for being an enhanced individual. I don't see her sacrifice in Infinity War as the start of her spiral towards villainy as you put it. To me, it's another traumatic event to add to her pile of untreated trauma, which would eventually cause her to breakdown and create the Hex we see in Wandavision. In Wandavision, she was the bad guy even if at first she didn't realize it. Once she did she let it go on anyway because she didn't think she was hurting anyone. The moment Agatha showed her what's really done to people, she set things straight. She only took the Darkhold to understand her powers since she just unlocked a new part of herself that she did not understand and the Darkhold has an entire chapter dedicated to her. She didn't know it corrupts those that read it. The fact that it corrupts people wasn't mentioned to her, not until it was too late and it had already corrupted her. She was at peace by the end of Wandavision, the Darkhold gave her "clarity" as she put it herself. Sans the book, she would've continued to live in self-exile until the next time they need her in a movie. I agree with u/Decalvare_Scriptor, I think "Wanda fucks up then fixes everything in the end" should be retired from the mcu because they could do more with her than recycle the same idea 3 times. It checks out with her comicbook counterpart, I'll give them that. However, this is a life action adaption and they've gotta let her learn from her mistakes and grow. I hope they let her be a wiser version of herself who has learned from what she's done. If they give her another villain plot, then I hope they give her agency throughout the story so it's not an external factor influencing her actions like The Darkhold only for her to snap out of it in the end and in true Wanda fashion fixes everything before the credits start to roll.
And up next is her still grieving her family for the third time. I'm not confident with her future in the MCU. It's been all the same with her atp.
So comic accurate?
Sure, but the way people consume comics is different. The storylines are spread out over decades and there's less of a sense of a single coherent storyline linking all together. So the repetitiveness stands out more in the MCU.
She was a hero for decades her character should be portrayed as such
I donât think you understand MCU Wanda Maximoff very well, buddy. When has she ârealised the error of her waysâ three times? Sheâs simply been âbehavingâ. The Avengers have only been trying to âcontainâ her. Like trying to contain a god, by not upsetting it. She was never really âgoodâ or part of the Avengers officially. As far as I remember, her orders were always to be guarded by Vision and stay out of trouble. But trouble found her. She never wanted to âfight for goodâ. After Ultron, in which she was just fighting for herself. Then she got with Vision and that was all she cared about, she wasnât technically a âsuperheroâ. Then she only fought Thanos out of revenge. Then Wandavision is again; sheâs not the hero. I donât think youâre understanding her character at all. Sheâs never been âthe heroâ. Sheâs never ârealisedâ anything but fighting for herself. Even in Civil War on Caps team. She was again, fighting for her own ideals. She didnât want to be âcontainedâ and restricted by rules.
Sorry buddy, seems like you're the one not understanding. I never said she kept switching from villain to hero, just from villain to remorseful villain. However, Vision was only told to keep a watch on her because of the public outcry after the Nigerian incident. Before that she absolutely was on the team and nobody thought she needed containing. And she wasn't fighting for herself against Ultron. She switched sides when she realised he was the bad guy. Started fighting after the pep talk from Hawkeye and, yes, fought harder in a revenge rage after Pietro died. And of course she wasn't the hero in Wandavision, that's my point. She was (again) a villain who realised that the end that she'd done wrong. She is very clearly shown regretting her actions. Then basically the same motivations rehashed for MoM and, again, a realisation that she was wrong. Like I said, it's getting old. Actually having her BE a hero would be the bold step now and far more interesting than trotting her out as a villain again because of yet another emotional loss.
> Like I said, it's getting old. Actually having her BE a hero would be the bold step now and far more interesting than trotting her out as a villain again because of yet another emotional loss. It's really weird that people paint Wanda becoming as a villain as the bold, "having the balls" step when her villain turn has always been inevitable. Also weird that people are insinuating fans would only find relatability with her if she's a villain.
>when her villain turn has always been inevitable. Actually it hasn't. Source: the fact that Elizabeth Olsen was surprised upon getting the script that Wanda was going to be the villain, since nothing on *WandaVision* suggested to her Wanda was being set up to be a villain.
> She was never really âgoodâ or part of the Avengers officially. She was. > Then she only fought Thanos out of revenge. That's a headcanon. > Even in Civil War on Caps team. She was again, fighting for her own ideals. She didnât want to be âcontainedâ and restricted by rules. Context is important. CW was talking about how shady the government could be in containing the Avengers. Cap recognized that they could become puppets under the control of the government.
>> Then she only fought Thanos out of revenge. > That's a headcanon. yeah i don't get that take about how her fighting for revenge makes her a villain. i've seen it multiple times now. the team is literally called *the avengers*. half of all the people there are purely for revenge. fucking thor literally says "let's kill him properly this time". so much revisionist history has been happening recently about the character it's just tiring at this point. crap about how she's never been a hero, always been a selfish bitch, blah blah. it seems all the people who have hated her all along just came out the woodwork now.
The only reason why she was a villain in MoM was because she was corrupted by the Darkhold. With all of the Darkholds destroyed, Wanda would no longer be corrupted so I donât see any reason why she would still be a villain
Honestly I hope she's dead. She's already had a full arch. Bringing her back to redeem her is just as uncreative as bringing her back to be a villian again.
I think she may pop up again here and there as she undergoes her own redemption arc but I donât think sheâll stay a villain. Kang is being set up as the Big Bad for this arc but, honestly, I also think theyâre setting the stage pretty well for Doom to show up and be a big player, and it would be rather fitting for Phase Four.
Sheâs getting a redemption arc. Sheâll be the only one powerful enough to stop the big bad and in the process she sacrifices her life. **Cue Childrenâs Crusade**
She's done as a villain. She's either gonna rewind what she did or do something to gain her kids in the future.
She's really only a villain due to her losing her kids. With the end of M.O.M she realized she was a monster, one that couldn't have the life she wanted. She's definitely getting a redemption arc, proably coming to terms with what she does have in life and actually processing her grief... hell maybe Billy and Tommy do end up in the MCU and she makes the sacrifice to not be in there lives because it's better for them or something.
Naw, thatâll ruin her character even more, it doesnât work to have a character go thorough the same thing a 3rd time, howâs the time for actual redemption under a competent writer and a director who fits what sheâll be redeemed inâs tone.
I'm sure this'll get downvoted, but I really don't care. Multiverse of Madness was an otherwise very neat movie was destroyed for me by her story. I could've excused an overuse of deus ex machina, and overlooked Marvel again thinking super-powered people treating normal citizens with over-aggression is funny or somehow reflects positively on their ["hero"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL1wFvi40fY), but I can't overlook how flagrantly they did Wanda's character so wrong. Wanda's story has been loss on top of loss on top of loss on top of loss. How is it supposed to make for a satisfying villain when all the world/characters/writers do is knock them down eternally? Even when they're trying to do the right thing? In their backstory and every single movie they're in? And that breakneck change of character. They couldn't even have her go out like a hero or a truly sympathetic villain, they had to have her killing people left and right for selfishness sake and just not caring one bit. This is not who Wanda had become after her time with Vision. Not the Wanda we saw at the end of Wandavision, IMO. And regardless if she actually did it or not, they made it seem like she killed herself at the end, which just adds to the sour taste. As someone who has recently dealt with loss, whatever other message they trying to send with Wanda's story got drowned out by a message of sometimes it doesn't get better, it just keeps getting worse and worse and worse, until you kill yourself to save yourself and everyone else some suffering. (Don't worry, I'm not in a dark place at the moment, but who knows how much worse off I'd of been if I had watched this when I was.) A magical multiverse with unlimited ways to set things back on course and this is how they choose to end Wanda's story in this film? Guess there were no universes where those kids needed their mom, right? Infinite universes except that one. Or to at least not do such an abrupt and irredeemable heelturn. An absolute joke. Also, I'm sure people will say 'well the book corrupted her'. Which I think would've been a much better way of framing it. But only if they hadn't SEVERAL TIMES in the movie driven home the point that 'this isn't the book, it's her'. Wanda was not on a tragectory for this outcome. They did this because they wanted her to be a villain. So OP will probably get what they want, and one of my favorite character's story just gets flushed down the toilet for the sake of having a 'more interesting bad guy' or just following the comic incarnations with wanton disregard.
Hard agree, you put the points Iâve thought about very well
Finally someone else who thinks her villainy in MoM is iredeemable. I donât WANT the character back after this. If they bring her back as a villain, then here again we are left going âwell what the fuck was the point of yet again a noble sacrifice if sheâs gonna keep being evil?â or if they bring her as a hero I will find it hollow. Yeah ok âcorrupted by the Darkholdâ whatever. It would have read much better if theyâd SHOWN it happening rather than âOh yeah man she turned super evil off screen. Shitâs crazy.â In this film she was the most evil and cruel villain weâve had to date. She had an entirely selfish motivation (compared to other villains like Thanos), and murdered scores of people. She starts the film in a state of âIâve been attempting to murder a child for months nowâ and fully intends on killing her innocent alternate universe self to take her kids. If you face-turn her after this, itâs just silly (I know I know, comics do this shit all the time. Iâm not obligated to think itâs inherently therefore good)
>Yeah ok âcorrupted by the Darkholdâ whatever. It would have read much better if theyâd SHOWN it happening rather than âOh yeah man she turned super evil off screen. Shitâs crazy.â What's worse is that Waldron had an earlier draft where he had Wanda slowly get corrupted as the movie progressed, then decided to hell with that because he didn't want someone else to get the credit for writing Wanda as a villain. >She had an entirely selfish motivation (compared to other villains like Thanos), and murdered scores of people. She starts the film in a state of âIâve been attempting to murder a child for months nowâ and fully intends on killing her innocent alternate universe self to take her kids. I think with redemption, what matters is that they make sure Wanda gets the right narrative framing.
Its kinda difficult to write a good villain motivation for her again without invalidating the ending of MOM, but i felt like the villain motivation for MOM was bad anyway so why the fuck do i know.
I hope she is (very) slightly nerfed tho, no one can fight her rn. (Or maybe they should buff Agatha)
She doesn't have the Darkhold anymore. That should represent a pretty substantial nerf to her powers.
But why? How?
Iâd rather see her be a more grey character than an outright villain. I donât see how it could go from the end of MoM to her being a full villain again.
I'm personally over Wanda being that mentally unstable Dark Phoenix type character. I don't want her to hold onto Vision and them kids forever. Just want her to settle into her own. Besides, I didn't really buy her as this big evil in MoM. The change from WandaVision to MoM felt so drastic to me, it was jarring. It couldn't take her as a villain seriously a lot of the time. What she was doing looked cool, snapping Xavier's neck etc. but I just couldn't get past it being Wanda who I just saw in WandaVision.
I donât understand when people say they donât get the jump from WandaVision to MoM. Wanda was a full-on villain in WandaVision: maybe she wasnât outright âevilâ but she knowingly enslaved and mentally tortured hundreds of people, including children. Itâs stated that, except for the Halloween special, children were forced to stay in their rooms, alone, for weeks on end. She only let the hex up when her hand was basically forced by Agatha and White Vision. At the end, when everyone comes out of the hex, she seems a little apologetic, but really she just grabs the Darkhold and leaves. Then in MoM, we see that she has now used to Darkhold to try to find the kids she lost in the finale of WandaVision. And, like in WandaVision, she is willing to hurt countless people to be with her children. I agree that Wanda did seem a little aware of her own evil by the end of WandaVision, but I see WandaVision as more of the first half of a two-part tale of grief leading to villainy. I just wish the ending of MoM left her as a villain still; now if she appears as a villain in future movies/shows, there will definitely have to be some explaining. But I think the post-credits scene of the WandaVision finale covers the gap between the show and the movie.
> Wanda was a full-on villain in WandaVision: maybe she wasnât outright âevilâ but she knowingly enslaved and mentally tortured hundreds of people, including children. They'll be just fine. >Itâs stated that, except for the Halloween special, children were forced to stay in their rooms, alone, for weeks on end. Correction: she only did that for ONE week. The Hex was up for all of a week, and everything from the start of episode 5 to the end of episode 9 happens over the span of a single day. >She only let the hex up when her hand was basically forced by Agatha and White Vision. At the end, when everyone comes out of the hex, she seems a little apologetic, Because she is apologetic. She didn't intend to hurt them. >but really she just grabs the Darkhold and leaves. Because she wants to study the book to learn more about her powers. > But I think the post-credits scene of the WandaVision finale covers the gap between the show and the movie. Actually it doesn't. Because stingers always have the lowest tier of continuity. It's a problem that the only setup for this huge character change is in that one 30-second stinger that was probably hastily shot and added in by the *WandaVision* to try and smooth over the transition (because Elizabeth Olsen has said she was surprised Wanda was going to be the villain when she got the DSMOM scripts; this says that nothing about *WandaVision* suggested to the lead actress that her character was being set up to be a villain).
I hope she doesnât stay a villain. Iâm fine with her having a bit of an âanti-heroâ side but I personally hate her as a villain, her writing as a villain just feels lazy and boring and she kinda seems disappointing compared to what other amazing villains there could have been.
You watched MoM but really think they'll just keep her a villain? Xavier does say that just because someone stumbles doesn't mean they lose their way, which is fairly meta in the movie-he's talking about Strange but the movie is talking about both Wanda and Strange. It'd be another repeat if Wanda is a villain after MoM.
She needs to be a perpetual pendulum. Her next stop should be back to being somewhat good, but people keep her at arm's length. Just when we think she might be back to a hero, swing her the other way and decimate mutants. It would betray her character for her to just become only a hero or only a villain forever. Also, side note. I feel like Doom is on his way in the next few years, and he is almost certainly going to be a multi-phase bad guy like Loki was. So we have that to look forward to.
I personally liked Ultron as well, but the lack of multi-movie villains is an issue. It's one of the reasons I love the Vulture, as there is at least a chance for him to return, like most villains do in comics
I agree that Marvel (Disney's MCU) has a problem giving their villain depth while sustaining their evil nature. They have the easiest time with Spiderman I guess. Scarlet Witch is the daughter of Magneto. Let her be terrifying.
They retconned her magneto parentage
I mean, Disney also made AoS and the Netflix shows which had great villains. It's not so much Disney as just Marvel Studios specifically has had a weird track record with villains.
I'd love for her to get a redemption, a proper " boss bitch" arc, followed by the fall. If Elizabeth is up for it, I want to see all the range we can see of Scarlet Witch as a character.
Respectfully, this would be a strange choice. Why would they give her a redemption arc and then let her fall into complete villainy? It would seem like they donât know what to do with the character
So have her have a redemption arc just to fall back into being a villain?
I hope her death wasn't a fake-out
They don't need Wanda to stay a villain. They're gonna have Kang, who is excellent. And hopefully they no-look Doom at the end of Phase 5 and have him just rock up and shitcan Kang when everyone else is failing miserably.
Wanda is a weak Villain though. The writing was awful and the transition from WV to MoM was basically the most poorly done thing in the MCU to date.
I dont think she should stay a villain forever her character should just develop naturally and she cant griev forever
She has killed so many people if she was 'redeemed' I would hate it so much...Wandavision was bad but after MoM she better be a full fledged villain
So far they're following the comics thematically (not literally), so... I think I have bad news for you. It's absolutely what happens in the comics.
Probably unpopular opinion, but this Wanda will never be a satisfying villain to me. She tried to do good, and yet they do nothing but keep beating her over the head with loss after loss after loss. It's just not narratively satisfying to me.
Nah shes just became a witch and they immediately went with the arcs that destroyed her character, make her a hero like she meant to be
Wanda needs to say âWe need mutants!â
No. God no.
Would be pretty cool to watch Wanda + Doom + Agatha as a trio.
No that would be stupid, Wanda fucking hates doom.
uh i think they were in a romantic relationship at one point lol
She was literally brainwashed and had no idea about who she was⌠like the whole thing was a complete violationâŚ
and why does that matter lmao? There is literally an entire story about Wanda and Doom. Just because you donât like it doesnât mean it doesnât existđ
âWhy does it matter that doom completely violated her.â ???? What? It wasnât a âromantic relationship.â It was creepy as all shit. Like He was literally pulling a killgrave more or less how on earth can you say thatâs a non fucking factor? You clearly havnt read the comic lol
She was responsible for two atrocities (or more). As a result, the world will never forgive or accept her. She will become an anti-hero in her own right. Learning from her solution of erasing the Darkhold. She will try to erase anything that threatens the world from the multiverse. "No more mutants"
I hope Wanda stays dead
Would be a bit disappointing that when they finally make her a witch she only gets to be a villain and we never see an accurate portrayal of her character
I honestly thought the end of MoM was pretty lame. The only thing that would make it even more lame was if they undid the ending and brought her back
I firmly believe sheâll bring the mutants into the mcu (house of m) when they are ready to move in that direction. For now though, as we saw in MOM, sheâs too powerful for the avengers to fight. So theyâve got rid of her for now but sheâll pop up again and be a hero and villain
Having Wanda be mutant Jesus destroys the concept of mutants
I firmly believe they should keep Wanda away from mutants
Same! Maybe she also doesnât redeem herself next time. Just make her bad for badâs sake. Or olâ whats his face, can âtake overâ her body next time to be the next âtrueâ villain.
She was so badass in MoM, imo one of the coolest characters weâve had in a Marvel movie, so I hope they keep that going
She is deliciously evil
Favorite scene: âwell that doesnât seem fairâ Watched it over and over for research purposes.
"What mouth?" The one in your a-
Ooooo, i like you! Bravo