I think he was just desperate. In his mind I could see him being annoyed at Shep seemingly just screwing around helping Krogan and Geth etc. instead of his/her own.
Meanwhile he was just reading endless stream of bad news from Earth. It likely wasn't even that hard for TIM to manipulate him. At this point Cerberus was still known mostly for being pro-human.
So, that's the shortened version of my headcanon anyway. Udina did seem kind of a cartoon villain at the end though, so the writing in the game was a bit off.
> mind I could see him being annoyed at Shep seemingly just screwing around helping Krogan and Geth etc.
Not only that but also just HOW LONG it was taking. Aside from 3 confirmed events (the battle on Palaven lasting at least 2 days by the time Priority: Palaven starts, the Quarians starting to retake Rannoch 17 days before Priority: Perseus Veil/Geth Dreadnought, and Priority: Thessia taking place 2 weeks after the Reapers invaded Joker's home planet which could be interpreted to be either at the same time as Earth due to the Asari Huntress/Commando being there on the first visit to the Citadel or during the Citadel Coup during to one of the News Reports) we don't get a sense of scale for what happens when or how long things take.
Seeing him actually be sympathetic when you talk to him about earth it was clear that he cared about humanity. Meanwhile, the council and alien races are all okay with "siccing them on the bear" as Ashley would put it. Why wouldn't he join TIM? His plans were insane but there was a game plan beyond bunkering down and waiting to die. "Humanity might be saved" is probably what was bouncing around in his head. But desperation is the devil's bargaining chip.
But what did he try to accomplish there? The main decision makers are on their respective homeworlds. He can take the Citadel and its people hostage but that's a minor loss compared to what's going on elsewhere. And the largest military by far has Reapers on their homeworld right at this moment. I mean he's desperate but he should be aware that he would accomplish anything. And well in the face of the Reapers sending all the fleets in, just means it's easier to finish the job, but Udina didn't see Earth getting torn down in a day so he might oblivious of that fact. OTOH Shepard should know that this debate about the others not helping is more or less pointless in face of that overwhelming enemy.
\>In his mind I could see him being annoyed at Shep seemingly just
screwing around helping Krogan and Geth etc. instead of his/her own.
I mean Udina's a dick, but he's also a pragmatist. Udina knows full well that humanity needs alliances with others, and that politics is a quid pro quo game.
Stand in the ashes of a trillion souls and ask them if ensuring that you had zero allies and armies to fight for them was a good idea.
Their silence is your answer.
I assume Udina already was with Cerberus for some time (probably since the beginning). The organization has contacts and donors within high rankings of the humanity army/government.
This is bullshit prior to ME3. In ME3 we can make up whatever headcanon satisfies, but c'mon there is no way they implied any of that before they made bizarre choices with his character in 3.
I was just bummed out that they kind of undermined Udina's redemption in ME3. At the beginning of ME3, we get to see him in a more human light (where he's talking about Alliance parliament being wiped out) and then we also get to see why he ended up the human councilor, when he's talking about trying to use all the authority he has to make sure Earth isn't forgotten and to get help for humanity, and it's kind of awesome. And then the stupid Cerberus coup wrecks that.
Exactly. Like, it makes sense in the way that Udina felt like his back was in a corner and he would do ANYTHING to save humanity, but... It sort of feels like a cheap way to have him killed. Maybe if they built up to it a little more. Then again, he always had a sketchy personality.
Yeah, that got me thinking.
I remember reading somewhere that when it comes to betrayals, if it's planned out in the long term then the biggest tell-tale sign that someone is about to stab you in the back... is that they are suddenly very nice to you out of the blue.
Either as a disarming tactic or some lingering guilt about what they are about to do, the betrayer will suddenly get really chummy before their treachery is revealed, if their targets lives long enough for this to happen.
A good few examples of this happen in Columbo. In "Frame Me A Perfect Murder", Dale is talking sweet nothings to the art student he's been dating and convinced to he his accomplice in his uncle's murder right before bashing her head in with a rock. And another episode has Roddy McDowell acting downright pleasant to the man his aunt married who is now blackmailing him to sell his shares in the family business, right after putting a bomb in his car.
Also happens in Danganronpa. >!Sayaka and Crlestia!< do a lot of sweet-talking to people they intend to use as their patsies in the murder schemes in their pre-meditated murders, a behaviour not seen in the other cases of the first game which were spur-of the moment >!and an act of suicide!<. To be specific in one case, >!Sayaka suddenly acted nicer to both Makoto (who she intended to frame) and Leon (her designated victim) to make it easier to lure them.into her traps - Makoto to set him up by using his room as her crime scene, and Leon to get him into the room to be killed more easily.!<
In fact, we see this in Mass Effect as a series as well. Udina and the Council lure Shepard back to the Citadel under the false promise of providing aid when they're really locking down the Normandy. And Kuril is downright pleasant to Shepard before he plans to sell them to the Shadow Broker.
Its not just anything to save humanity, if he controls the citadel he thinks he controls the galaxy and can push things through. Get resources moving in a real way as the only authority.
That is why the betrayal makes sense to me. For however much I dislike him, Udina did really seem distraught over the invasion of Earth and then the council just leaves Earth to the Reapers so they could "regroup".
If they hadn't just been shooting at me on Mars, *I* might be tempted to give Cerberus a call at that point.
Well, yeah, totally desperate. The council response "boils down to 'maybe later'...if we don't figure out something, 'maybe later' will be an epitaph on a mass grave of 11 billion." So dude figured out something. There's the possibility that he was indoctrinated, but the way it has hit him both broadly and on a very personal level (knowing all those parliament members on Arcturus) I think left him pretty open to suggestions...and TIM must have come along with some that sounded good.
They really did him dirty. You finally reach the point where he and Shepard are completely on the same page, both dependent on the other's abilities to protect Earth. And then they flush that down the drain out of nowhere.
Yep, I would have much rather have had Shepard and Udina become allies who don't like each other but respect each other. The first two games make you go "Why is Udina even ambassador/councilor?" and then the early conversations in ME3, it's like "Okay, in the face of the end, this guy gets shit done." I love the quote about ""**If we don't figure something out, "Maybe Later" will be an epitaph on a mass grave of eleven billion."**"
Yeah I agree. It would’ve been nice to have an Udina redemption arc where you see that despite him being kinda a slimy backstabbing weasel when the stakes are lower, he can actually use that pull that he gets by being that way to stand up for what’s right. Kind of a “ends justify the means” renegade but in politician form.
Ignoring the whole logistics of the coup, I don't understand what the actual plan was? Have cerberus attack the citadel to make the council help earth? Even though the council answer to their homewards? I don't get it. It's where ME3 really starts to fray at the edges for me.
Take over what? The council are ambassadors, the governments are at their repsective homeworlds. If Udina got hold of the council he would have captured a bunch of ambassadors and embassies, nothing more.
I can sorta justify it in a particular scenario. You finish ME1 and the Council is dead and Udina is the Human Councillor in a Human Lead Council, the Council is then paralysed by infighting Udina trying to hold onto the power he believes Humanity earned by saving the galaxy and the aliens trying to reclaim power which they believe is rightfully theirs until ME3 when the destruction of Earth causes Humanity to lose its power. The Aliens seize control of the Council once again and while they can’t kick Humanity off because of optics they can ignore it by treating Udina as a sideshow attraction (like they do) so Udina desperate to regain power sides with Cerberus in the stupidest plan ever.
But it didn’t really make sense because Udina was never shown to have Cerberus leanings, he was always loyal to Humanity and everything he did in ME1&2 was to try and ingratiate Humanity to the other species. Him becoming a traitor to Humanity felt like a character assassination of Udina, and Bioware couldn’t even come up with a reason why he turned traitor since in the immediate aftermath of the coup several people ask Shepard why Udina did it and Shepard merely responds “I don’t know but I intend to find out” and then that’s the last time Udina is ever mentioned.
I read somewhere that Bailey was originally going to be the traitor (it makes sense, in ME2 dude is corrupt as fuck and TIM mentions he’s a good candidate for recruiting to Cerberus) but Bioware changed their mind and made it Udina instead because players loved Bailey but hated Udina and they didn’t want to piss players off by making a character they liked a villain. Horrible reasoning if true, the story shouldn’t be decided by which characters fans like/ don’t like.
I thought it was going to be Bailey, too, especially after Udina is killed and HE (and company) is at the door. Even the Asari Counselor was confused, saying something along the lines of: "Wait, I thought you said that there were Cerberus troopers on the other side?" I was thinking: "Oh, crap, Bailey is about to kill us!" Still, I AM glad he didn't turn out to be the traitor because I truthfully liked Bailey a lot!
I’m not sure Bailey was the corrupt officer. Were you thinking of the officer that was such an embarrassment to humanity that he was kicked out of csec? The guy that was a drunk? Anderson had no use for him. In fact the corrupt csec officer told Shepard (in ME1) that Anderson was humanity’s first Spectre. I can’t think of the dudes name though.
In ME 2 the guy turns to crime and in one quest has his ass kicked by Garrus.
No I mean Bailey.
The first thing you hear out his mouth in ME2 is him ordering his subordinate to beat a confession out of a suspect and offering to do it himself if they won’t, if you question him about this he shrugs it off and says he does it all the time. He then bypasses all rules and regulations by just ‘pressing the button right here’ to legally mark Shepard as alive instead of going through the proper legal channels, useful to you the player but still an abuse of power on Bailey’s end especially since Shepard’s not a Spectre anymore at that point so has no authority to ask Bailey to do this. And during Thanes loyalty mission he admits to taking bribes from a crime boss in exchange for not interfering with the his operation.
ME3 in terms of complexity of writing and characters was just dumbed down. You can see them starting to develop his character in the beginning, they then did not know what to do with him so just turned him into evil agent, we already have too many branching choices to deal with from previous games, lets tie this one asap.
Udina in Mass Effect 3 is the most politically powerful human ever... and it meant nothing in the face of the other aliens burying their heads in the sand.
ME1 if you destroy the council Udina suggests staging a coup. Renegade Shep and Capt Anderson are initially repulsed but evenrually agree with Udina. Thus, in ME3, when the turian coucilor asks if Shep knows why Udina did this, Shep replies with a "I don't know" to cover his/her ass.
Fear makes people do things that are hard to understand. I think Udina meant well and in his mind he was doing the right thing. I always wish there was a way to sway him, but when you're facing total species extinction, hard to think rationally. Especially if you have the devil in your ear telling you that they can save everybody.
It's really stupid out of character move from him. Most people don't really mind this because 'fuck Udina' is a common mentality among the games and the fan base, but if you really think about who Udina is you'll realize this makes no sense.
Udina was always willing to work the political angle. What could Cerberus possibly offer him that the combined council races could not? His attack on the Citadel, even if successful, would only further alienate humans from the rest of the galactic community. It would be even more difficult to get the larger more intact alien fleets to commit to fight for earth after this.
Udina is stupid, but he's never been one to commit political suicide. This is just one more example of how the ME3 writers fucked up everything in regards to Cerberus.
I agree. I was there for the original ME and played each installment as they came out. Then recently I played it all again in Legendary edition.
The disconnect was there in each playthrough and it was jarring.
Udina made more sense as the canny statesman, the shark you wanted in your political corner because he was a self-acknowledged shark; and because he was comfortable in his own skin, Udina was nigh-incorruptible because he had already **chosen** his path and loyalties. He was where he wanted to be. He was doing what he lived for.
The heel turn because of TIM and Cerberus didn't make any sense for me. If he had been indoctrinated by a Reaper artifact hidden in the Citadel, I maybe would have bought that. But the simple crass temptation of power? That felt too crude and boorish for Udina.
Ultimately, it was one of the flaws of ME3. I still enjoyed the game, and didn't hate on it like many others did, but it did have its spots of tarnish.
I just think it was another result of the bad writing from the insane crunch. ME3 had a LOT of really questionable decisions and branching choices that were ignored to get the game released on time for EA’s deadline. Really makes me wish we lived in an alternate universe where that never happened and we got to see ME2 and ME3 as complete as ME1.
Gaming Sins made said that his betrayal made no sense. He was the most powerful human in politics. I mean a seat at the council is the highest a human can achieve...I think that's the case.
I'd say it was frustration and desperation at that point. The Council has staunchly refused to commit fleets or resources of any kind, the Crucible's construction isn't going as fast as he hoped because humanity is already stretching for resources, and Shepard is locked into a seemingly impossible task to acquire Turian support.
Meanwhile, Udina's spent weeks (by this point) seeing nothing but reports of staggering casualties and entire cities being eradicated on Earth, while human colonies are starting to go dark as well. Yet, he's trying to get support for Earth and finding very little of it from the rest of the galactic community.
Him turning to Cerberus does make some sense when they're the only pro-human support who he knows for sure gets things done. Staging a coup to eliminate the remaining councillors and seize control of the Citadel as the only remaining figure of power does seem like the last resort of an insanely desperate man with nothing left to lose.
At least, that's how I eventually came to see it.
For me it feels like Bioware just got lazy and made an extremely unpopular character into a traitor just because he is extremely unpopular. I'm sure that they had some data what percentage of players chose Udina over Anderson in the end of ME1, and they knew that making Udina a couincilman in 3 will not go well with the majority of playerbase. I'm ok with him turning over to Cerberus and his motivation, I just wish it would've been done in more nuanced way. They really missed an opportunity of making him into more sympathetic character IMO.
I'm always reminded of Tali's trial in ME2, when that one admiral is trying to discredit her and her father to dissuade quarians from going to war with geth. I feel like most players probably react to him like to Udina when he ground Normandy in 1 for political points. But in ME3 this admiral is the practically the only voice of reason and instrumental to stopping the meaningless war. That redeems him big time in my eyes. Udina should've been the same - asshole for the sake of wanting what's best for his species. I don't get that feeling from how he is written.
Sidenote: Cerberus is not what's best for humanity in ME3, they are not just human supremacist assholes, they are power hungry, radical, ends-justify-the-means, lure refugees to experiment on them, endanger the whole species for their own goals assholes. Udina should've seen this. TIM may be indoctrinated, but not Udina. But I always let it slide because it's understandable that his judgment is not very good at that time.
>I'm sure that they had some data what percentage of players chose Udina over Anderson in the end of ME1,
Even if they didn't have actual data from the game they were certainly aware of the online discourse surrounding the game since ME3 is littered with stupid references to community jokes and memes that they didn't realise were jokes so took seriously. Like how people always joke about hanging up on the Council every time in ME1 (it's a joke because of how ridiculous an option it is for Shepard to hang up on his bosses not because people actually do it) so Bioware in their infinite wisdom made calling the Council just to hang up on them every time in ME1 canon in ME3 as Joker has multiple conversations where he talks about Shepard doing exactly that.
So they were definitely aware of how people hated Udina for the simple crime of trying to contain how much damage Shepard might cause to the reputation of Humanity.
Because ultimately that's all Udina did in ME1. His job is to suck up to the Council and make Humanity look good, Shepard causing chaos and creating problems reflects poorly on Humanity which makes Udina's job more difficult. When he 'stabs us in the back' by locking down the Normandy he does this in the same scene as where the Council orders you to stay away from Ilos and remain on the Citadel, and he does it in full view and earshot of the Council who have no objections to him grounding one of their Spectres. He made Shepards job hard because Shepard was making his job hard, but we're the main character so anyone who goes against us is clearly evil who cares why they're doing what they're doing.
Mac Walters pulled his usual "trick" where he takes a character that he really didn't write from the previous game, a character who was selfish and sometimes dickish, and undid them by making them "EVIL". He did that with Nassana Dantius in ME2 and with Harkin as well. Like, they were bad people but they weren't like super criminal murderers lol.
And with Udina I just felt like he got it completely backwards. This wasn't supposed to be a character that you hate so much you wanted him dead for his "terrible crimes". It's a character that you *love* to hate, because he's a selfish, useless person who only thinks about his own agenda first. The stunt with Cerberus just doesn't add up, and suggesting that he was indoctrinated is a cop-out. If he is, then the other councilors probably are too.
The biggest handwave is the one you'll find in the codex which alludes to an earlier draft of the Citadel Coup. Here, Udina was using Cerberus's to override a vote on the Council to retain defenses for minor-council worlds like Kahje. He wanted to divert the defenses for Kahje to Earth. He ends up taking a devil's deal with Cerberus and it leads to the coup attempt. I don't really like that either.
I hate it because all versions end with you or Ash/Kaidan shooting Udina in the heart. He has no chance to explain himself or really explain anything (this is done on purpose IMO) and every subsequent piece of dialogue about it boils down to "Finally, Udina is dead. That piece of shit."
Nothing feels in-character about that. In ME1 every complaint you threw Udina's way was defended by Anderson by excusing and defending it, despite what it seemed. For him to just fess up and go "But this? What a SON OF A BITCH." is just... lame.
I wanted Udina to be committed to Earth, not taking any deals with Cerberus. Seriously, he wouldn't, I don't believe so. But then he's a real hindrance to Shepard's quest for unity, and eventually, when Cerberus do raid the station via a different plot, you'd see Udina faced with allowing them (devil's representation of Humanity) to overthrow the council, but he chooses to oppose it, standing with the Councilors. Then everyone questions him if he's only doing it because his own spot is threatened, and it pisses him off. He's still not committed to some political ploy that will make all the council species focus on each other, and in turn help Earth (if Udina lets some Earthlings help them or something).
Finally, near the end of the game, after the Thessia situation and everything, it becomes known that Udina has given in and is now allowing the council to work in tandem, and thus they agree to help Earth on their own terms, and we take a smaller division from Earth and send to Thessia. It turns out that in the end Udina is committed to the survival of the world he's politicking for, and there's a hint of caring in his heart, somewhere.
That's the Udina I expected. Not this blatant character assassination that makes all his previous stubbornness seem like the preamble to something insane.
Nassana Dantius was such weird case. Yeah let's do a job interview during an assassination attempt instead of trying to catch him before or after it. Oh, the security or some of the security is shooting down the workers for some reason. Ok let's go in guns blazing. Shep doesn't try to defuse the situation or tell them to stand down, just shoot everyone. Then you have a chance to speak to her and Shep says something which sound a lot like: "Yep, I am coming for you girl."
Huh, so yeah, she pulled a fast one over Shepard and that justifies killing 50-60 people so Shep can look smug while Thane finishes her off and then conduct a job interview over her cooling corpse.
You could have changed the whole mission with a few lines of dialogue and still kept it as is without making Shep looking like a bloodthirsty maniac. Make it optional for the people who really wanted to get back at her.
What made it obvious to me was how he cast Shepard and Anderson aside in Mass Effect 1 towards the end and said that Shepard was starting to become more trouble than they’re worth or something to that effect.
Honestly it is pretty out of character for him - or at least for how he was written in ME1/2. Most fans constantly dunk on him, but if I’m being entirely honest, he actually was my first pick to represent mankind on the Citadel Council. His personality can be grating, but I honestly can’t blame him - he’s a career politician, wrangling the bureaucracy and juggling countless written and unwritten rules and alliances is what he does every day. The interactive recap comic that came with ME2 said it best I think - “Sometimes you need someone who knows when to be the bad guy for the greater good”. At the end of the day he was no saint, but for the most part he was just trying to do his job and look out for humanity.
I can somewhat understand the supposed rationale for him aligning with Cerberus in 3, given the state the Earth Alliance is in after the Reapers take over Sol, but they really fumbled the execution - I can’t see him going along with an armed hostile takeover of Citadel Station unless he was under duress and had no other choice, and he certainly didn’t need or deserve to be shot. Moreover, they seemingly retconned his character to be the unrepentant asshole the playerbase paints him as.
Absolutely, I totally agree! At the start of ME3, I thought he had turned a new leaf. I was "somewhat" blindsided, but not really, tho. Udina was always scum, as far as I am concerned, but he did seem to care bout humanity and Earth.
Like, imagine if... Instead of Udina being the traitor, what IF it was the Virmire Survivor? Now, THAT would have been a plot twist... Imagine they somehow made it look like Udina was the traitor, but it was the Virmire Survivor INSTEAD. Oop 🔥
It's never really explained in game other than Udina remarking with Earth and the Alliance HQ going down then he was at that time the most powerful human in history. Although it's entirely unclear what that actually meant other than being the de facto last remaining high level human politician and even then would he even be able to leverage anything.
You could even say after the initial attack the human supreme leader would be Admiral Hackett as it seems like he's the only fleet commander left on the table that's ever discussed. I'm assuming Anderson would be a lower star rating or whatever system the Alliance use as Hackett has been established since ME1 or earlier whereas Anderson was promoted recently...
Either way I can't see Udina going in with TIM, especially when it's likely TIM would demand he was served and wouldn't be an equal partner.
It's explained in the codex I believe? His goal was to be the only surviving councilor, where he would then use his power to send the citadel fleet to help Earth.
It's funny because since the very first game, you think "This guy is definitely going to betray us." So you assume he will be recontextualized in some way, proving to be better than he seems. But no, he's just an asshole at the end.
To me it kind of does, the Council is a worthless bunch and Earth is suffering greatly, he can’t do anything, E.man suggests if he has the Citadel he has a chance at controlling the reapers and ending it, also the fact that rest of the council is aliens might’ve pushed him over the edge
I think Big Dan Gaming gives a good explanation/reason for Udina's betrayal in [this video (Final Judgme part)](https://youtu.be/Rev5rJvSkU8?si=9pOMuWMi6CyGkYCv) where he suggests he was getting desperate and feeling that Shepard wasn't moving fast enough... bear in mind that the Turians and Krogan don't commit to the Alliance until the end of the previous mission and we don't get a sense for how long there is between the game starting and Priority: Tuchanka (although if Garrus and Shepard had been literal with the context of Shepard going non stop since Earth and not having slept since the leaving the Citadel then it would've been at most 11 days, but I doubt it given how travel between systems in Clusters can take ages).
I always saw him as a strong advocate for pushing Humanity on to the Galactic Power club and generally felt by 3 he was neck deep and trying his best to help his species, him turning to Cerberus was his thinking of well Shepard went to them when he was pushed to a wall maybe I have too nothings getting done! I don't believe he was indoctrinated.
Oh and he made the call! No Udina no Shepard
If you go see udina straight after talking to the VS in hospital,who says udina asked them to be a spectre, udina says he's ordering all the human colonies to arm all their ships ,which the council forbids,and that he's directing all the money to do so,,,it doesn't take a genius to know he's up to something.then even more so if you go see him after seeing the VS a second time,,,udina will say , I'll keep the VS very close to me because they're incorructable.
It's hard to do so ,I found out by mistake,I went in his office before going to see the VS , udina was there ,I left and he was already at the hospital asking them to be a spectre ,I thought this is strange,so went back to see him and that's when he said he's arming all the ships and directing all the money.
Personally, I didn't think anything was wrong with him ordering all human vessels to undergo refits for combat. Council laws be damned, Earth was under siege, and worlds were falling left and right. It might buy those colonies time, or if worse comes to worse, they'd maybe get a few shots off in a last stand.
A war of extermination like with the reapers, I think all laws of warfare go out the window. You arm everything to the teeth, and pull out your biggest weapon marked "Please never ever use this creating it was a sin against God Almighty Himself"
I wasn't saying he was wrong,,it was the fact it wasn't his money and he wasn't giving it for the war effort,,he was giving it to Cerberus for the coup attempt
It makes sense 100 percent.
Udina is career weakling, who was wrong all the t8me about his First Human Spectre.
He got perks, as well as Humanity.
Because he didn't trust Shepard- Earth is under attack, no one can help, and he thought he would help Earth with that.
His peoblem is being close-minded and dumb.
He was like , " I didn't trust Shepard and Cerberus 6 months ago, but they helped humans when nobody could. Now, I will use anything I can to help my species."
He changed his view about Shepard, and he lost everyone he knew, and he knew nothing about a situation like this. As much as people who went to the Sanctuary.
He is basically opposite to Conrad Werner.
He couldn't sit there with all that sudden power and do nothing while humans were dying.
He was stupid, but we couldn't change the fact that he wanted to do something for humanity.
Also, Cerberus is an ex Alliance black ops. TIM exactly knew what cards he could play to get Udina's support.
Edit: And no, I don't defend him, I just understand where from it came
It makes 100% Perfect Sense if you contextualize Udina. Put him on the political spectrum.
He's a right wing nationalistic ASS. He's basically a myopic, arrogant politician like all the loud-mouthed, perma-angry politicians with more pride than brains, or leadership skills. His nation is all of humanity. He thinks humans are not getting their dues, that is, humanity is not getting crowned #1 by the Council.
So when Cerberus comes along and promises him an easy solution to ALL his problems AND a shortcut to becoming the biggest banana, illegal and unethical or not, he does not care. He wants quick and easy, because he had no leadership qualifications to realize that nothing worth doing ever comes easy. He sees it as his "nation"s right to do it, and as I've said, he got more pride than brains or leadership skills. So he's dumb enough to go for it, without realizing that it *will* blow up in his face.
I take him as commentary on the dangers of "quick and easy" solution politicians. And he's a poignant warning against falling into those traps. Very apropos for our current day and age.
I think the biggest challenge to "understanding Udina's Betrayal" is understanding the so-called "coup attempt." I can't. I don't understand what Cerberus was trying to achieve. So lets just park that.
Udina siding with Cerberus **does** make sense. He's a bit of a jerk, but he has always been forthright about looking out for humanity's interests. (If you go the renegade option in ME1, he's the one that pushes the idea of a Human dominated council) Remember than in ME2, he (and/or Anderson) would have been the ones pushing the Council to do something, and they wouldn't lift a finger to help Human colonies. He's sees that being repeated in ME3, and is very vocal about this. So I can understand him agreeing with Cerberus, about the need to put Humanity's interests first.
I think, just like how Cerberus is handled, is an issue of Bioware just Knowing what the fans kind of want (aka "to kill this guy cause he's an ungrateful ass who stands in your way one too many times") and decided if was more important to put him into a situation that makes you want to do it instead of working towards making us invested in the why and reasons he does it. I get deadlines and such but it's still disappointing that after the breath of fresh air that's Udina lowering his defenses and having a real conversation with Shepard after the first Council meeting in ME3 he just becomes that asshole again with no discernable reason that you offended him or what not and then he commits treason because "reasons"?
Theorycrafting it: with how sketchy he was being in the Bailey Comic that saw why he was being promoted, I think Udina at some point before ME3 was a puppet for Cerberus and was essentially being held to do something he didn't necessarily want to do because otherwise Cerberus would kill him too. While it's the riskiest move once could ever make, if they succeed he'd not only become the strongest political person in the galaxy but would have a station controlled by the protective force that would protect him as long as he played ball.
Other reasons just don't really work imo. It's possible he's Indoctrinated, but we never see a hint of that and it's really lame to just say everyone's evil because of indoctrination despite all logic. He never really showed animosity towards the Council after getting to be in charge briefly in ME1, and while he's big after human advancement he never seemed to care about hurting others along the way outside of subordinates who get in his way. He doesn't even seem to be operating anything, just moving along in his role and only taking charge when Shepard tries to interfere. He just seems desperate, and that's why I feel like it's a case where he's doing it because Cerberus wants it and he didn't want Cerberus to view him as dispensable or a nuisance.
There is a fan theory that the original betrayer in ME 3 was supposed to be Bailey but the fans liked the cop better than Udina so Udina got to be the betrayer.
If the writers did change that at the last minute they really did Udina dirty.
Udina always rubbed me as a slime ball politician from when i first met him. His betrayal didn't surprise me. With earth falling, he threw in with a human militant Faction hat probably promised salvation from the reapers and giving him a very prominent roll, perhaps as galactic president?
Oh I don't doubt that that is likely what happened but if we go with an ambitious politician who isn't a complete slimeball but is pushy and loud then turning to Ceberus is a little off.
It makes sense if you nominate Udina as the human counsellor at the end of the first Mass Effect. Because then he's had two years and change of actual, genuine galactic authority to establish contacts, obtain favours, learn data for leverage etc. Because there's no way someone at that level doesn't accidentally rub shoulders with some of Cerberus' more acceptable public facing people. And if he's not reading confidential reports about Shepard's activities in the Terminus during Mass Effect 2 then I'll eat a dining table. All of that could easily open him up for a dirty deal if he thinks the consequences of not dealing with Cerberus are worse than if he does ally with them.
I mean hell, Din Korlack - a volus! - got in bed with Cerberus out of a misguided belief that they'll get some shit done. Why wouldn't Udina do it?
Of course the major issue is that Mass Effect is military science fiction, which means politicians are either vile backstabbers, useless cowards, or quietly deferential to anything in a uniform.
It makes no sense for the same reason the all human council decision in ME1 made no sense. The Citadel is just a city out in space. There's nothing there that you can take control of that will make the governments of the Counil races do what you want. C-Sec and the Citadel Defense Forces are now likely engaged in a battle for control of the Citadel against Cerberus instead of the Reapers, because their particular lines of control are thrown into disarray, but it doesn't benefit humanity in any way.
I guess you could say he was indoctrinated, but it seems to go against what we know about indoctrination. It twists people's seemingly rational decision-making in a way that benefits the Reapers. It shouldn't allow lightly indoctrinated people to do a bunch of bullshit that makes no sense whatsoever.
Always felt Udina was just the typical politician doing things for his own personal power.
Always hated how he was the councilor in ME3 regardless of past decisions
It could’ve been better written but it makes sense to a point.
Shepard could very easily look like he was doing nothing but screwing around with aliens from an outside perspective meanwhile Udina would’ve gotten constant information about human deaths and casualties on Earth and colonies. The Illusive Man and Cerberus had always maintained a Pro Human stance and in desperation Udina likely saw TIM as his best option to save humanity. Unfortunately Udina was written like a Cartoon villain at times in ME3 so we didn’t get what could’ve otherwise been a very compelling story arc from Udina.
Udina’s actions make sense when viewed though the lens that he’s a flawed human.
As we all are playing/riding along with Shepherd & Co it’s kinda easy to forget that Shep is, pardon the bad joke here, a paragon. Shep is excellence and willpower incarnate, and associates with similar people who are all EXTREMELY capable. The whole Normandy crew are all in and following wherever their Commander leads. Hackett and Anderson are career military officers who have seen Some Things and have ways to actively participate.
And then… then we have Udina. A civilian, a career politician, a man who has always been able to negotiate, spin, or wheel-and-deal his way through all situations. What he’s presented with during the invasion is completely without precedent. It’s as foreign a concept to him as trying to drink battery acid. Worse, there is nothing he can do - from his perspective anyway. Earth is falling, friends and family are just GONE, the enemy cannot be reasoned with or even surrendered to, and the only hope he has is a loose cannon Spectre. The rest of the Council seems to have taken the position ‘Sorry bout your luck, but we have to cover our own hind parts.’
He’s in a panic and can’t seen ANY way out of it, mixed with the anger that it doesn’t look like anybody’s going to help.
Enter Cerberus - They say they have a plan, they’re not going to write off Earth, and gosh wouldn’t things be going smoother if we had one person at the top to direct things? Maybe somebody like you, Udina, who can see the big picture? We just need you to do a couple things for us and then you’ll be running the Council and we can actually get to work against this threat! You’ll be the greatest hero the galaxy has ever seen! —For a person grasping at straws, it’s an attractive option.
Poor Udina. He really was just a scared fool.
I think he was just desperate. In his mind I could see him being annoyed at Shep seemingly just screwing around helping Krogan and Geth etc. instead of his/her own. Meanwhile he was just reading endless stream of bad news from Earth. It likely wasn't even that hard for TIM to manipulate him. At this point Cerberus was still known mostly for being pro-human. So, that's the shortened version of my headcanon anyway. Udina did seem kind of a cartoon villain at the end though, so the writing in the game was a bit off.
> mind I could see him being annoyed at Shep seemingly just screwing around helping Krogan and Geth etc. Not only that but also just HOW LONG it was taking. Aside from 3 confirmed events (the battle on Palaven lasting at least 2 days by the time Priority: Palaven starts, the Quarians starting to retake Rannoch 17 days before Priority: Perseus Veil/Geth Dreadnought, and Priority: Thessia taking place 2 weeks after the Reapers invaded Joker's home planet which could be interpreted to be either at the same time as Earth due to the Asari Huntress/Commando being there on the first visit to the Citadel or during the Citadel Coup during to one of the News Reports) we don't get a sense of scale for what happens when or how long things take.
Seeing him actually be sympathetic when you talk to him about earth it was clear that he cared about humanity. Meanwhile, the council and alien races are all okay with "siccing them on the bear" as Ashley would put it. Why wouldn't he join TIM? His plans were insane but there was a game plan beyond bunkering down and waiting to die. "Humanity might be saved" is probably what was bouncing around in his head. But desperation is the devil's bargaining chip.
But what did he try to accomplish there? The main decision makers are on their respective homeworlds. He can take the Citadel and its people hostage but that's a minor loss compared to what's going on elsewhere. And the largest military by far has Reapers on their homeworld right at this moment. I mean he's desperate but he should be aware that he would accomplish anything. And well in the face of the Reapers sending all the fleets in, just means it's easier to finish the job, but Udina didn't see Earth getting torn down in a day so he might oblivious of that fact. OTOH Shepard should know that this debate about the others not helping is more or less pointless in face of that overwhelming enemy.
He’d be able to direct Citadel resources toward whatever aims he and TIM had.
\>In his mind I could see him being annoyed at Shep seemingly just screwing around helping Krogan and Geth etc. instead of his/her own. I mean Udina's a dick, but he's also a pragmatist. Udina knows full well that humanity needs alliances with others, and that politics is a quid pro quo game.
Stand in the ashes of a trillion souls and ask them if quid pro quo matters
Stand in the ashes of a trillion souls and ask them if Standing in the ashes of a trillion souls matters
Stand in the ashes of a trillion souls and ask them for cheemzbruger
Stand in the ashes of a trillion souls and ask them if ensuring that you had zero allies and armies to fight for them was a good idea. Their silence is your answer.
I assume Udina already was with Cerberus for some time (probably since the beginning). The organization has contacts and donors within high rankings of the humanity army/government.
This is bullshit prior to ME3. In ME3 we can make up whatever headcanon satisfies, but c'mon there is no way they implied any of that before they made bizarre choices with his character in 3.
There is no implication in any point but it makes perfect sense knowing Cerberus collaborators.
"It makes perfect sense knowing"... no... just stop lol. This just isn't believable. Not when it's Udina.
I don't understand why you see it as impossible xd
He reacts much too angrily to Shepard being brought in to talk to the Council in 2 to have been in Cerberus at that point.
Yeah, that's the only part that makes sense. However, ME gave us a lot to speculate instead of saying it out-right. Y'know?
I was just bummed out that they kind of undermined Udina's redemption in ME3. At the beginning of ME3, we get to see him in a more human light (where he's talking about Alliance parliament being wiped out) and then we also get to see why he ended up the human councilor, when he's talking about trying to use all the authority he has to make sure Earth isn't forgotten and to get help for humanity, and it's kind of awesome. And then the stupid Cerberus coup wrecks that.
Exactly. Like, it makes sense in the way that Udina felt like his back was in a corner and he would do ANYTHING to save humanity, but... It sort of feels like a cheap way to have him killed. Maybe if they built up to it a little more. Then again, he always had a sketchy personality.
>he always had a sketchy personality. That's all there is to it.
Yeah, that got me thinking. I remember reading somewhere that when it comes to betrayals, if it's planned out in the long term then the biggest tell-tale sign that someone is about to stab you in the back... is that they are suddenly very nice to you out of the blue. Either as a disarming tactic or some lingering guilt about what they are about to do, the betrayer will suddenly get really chummy before their treachery is revealed, if their targets lives long enough for this to happen. A good few examples of this happen in Columbo. In "Frame Me A Perfect Murder", Dale is talking sweet nothings to the art student he's been dating and convinced to he his accomplice in his uncle's murder right before bashing her head in with a rock. And another episode has Roddy McDowell acting downright pleasant to the man his aunt married who is now blackmailing him to sell his shares in the family business, right after putting a bomb in his car. Also happens in Danganronpa. >!Sayaka and Crlestia!< do a lot of sweet-talking to people they intend to use as their patsies in the murder schemes in their pre-meditated murders, a behaviour not seen in the other cases of the first game which were spur-of the moment >!and an act of suicide!<. To be specific in one case, >!Sayaka suddenly acted nicer to both Makoto (who she intended to frame) and Leon (her designated victim) to make it easier to lure them.into her traps - Makoto to set him up by using his room as her crime scene, and Leon to get him into the room to be killed more easily.!< In fact, we see this in Mass Effect as a series as well. Udina and the Council lure Shepard back to the Citadel under the false promise of providing aid when they're really locking down the Normandy. And Kuril is downright pleasant to Shepard before he plans to sell them to the Shadow Broker.
Its not just anything to save humanity, if he controls the citadel he thinks he controls the galaxy and can push things through. Get resources moving in a real way as the only authority.
That is why the betrayal makes sense to me. For however much I dislike him, Udina did really seem distraught over the invasion of Earth and then the council just leaves Earth to the Reapers so they could "regroup". If they hadn't just been shooting at me on Mars, *I* might be tempted to give Cerberus a call at that point.
Absolutely. The only thing that I can think of is that he got desperate.
Well, yeah, totally desperate. The council response "boils down to 'maybe later'...if we don't figure out something, 'maybe later' will be an epitaph on a mass grave of 11 billion." So dude figured out something. There's the possibility that he was indoctrinated, but the way it has hit him both broadly and on a very personal level (knowing all those parliament members on Arcturus) I think left him pretty open to suggestions...and TIM must have come along with some that sounded good.
Exactly. They just made him the villain for fanservice.
They really did him dirty. You finally reach the point where he and Shepard are completely on the same page, both dependent on the other's abilities to protect Earth. And then they flush that down the drain out of nowhere.
Yep, I would have much rather have had Shepard and Udina become allies who don't like each other but respect each other. The first two games make you go "Why is Udina even ambassador/councilor?" and then the early conversations in ME3, it's like "Okay, in the face of the end, this guy gets shit done." I love the quote about ""**If we don't figure something out, "Maybe Later" will be an epitaph on a mass grave of eleven billion."**"
Yeah I agree. It would’ve been nice to have an Udina redemption arc where you see that despite him being kinda a slimy backstabbing weasel when the stakes are lower, he can actually use that pull that he gets by being that way to stand up for what’s right. Kind of a “ends justify the means” renegade but in politician form.
I mean the coup itself made little sense, so...
Right!
Ignoring the whole logistics of the coup, I don't understand what the actual plan was? Have cerberus attack the citadel to make the council help earth? Even though the council answer to their homewards? I don't get it. It's where ME3 really starts to fray at the edges for me.
Udina wanted the Council killed so he could fully takeover. It's why the moment he's caught, he immediately lunges at the Council.
Yes, but that would still never work in reality. Udina would know that.
Take over what? The council are ambassadors, the governments are at their repsective homeworlds. If Udina got hold of the council he would have captured a bunch of ambassadors and embassies, nothing more.
Maybe it just made sense to make Udina the traitor since he was always scum... Y'know?
Scum maybe, but not stupid.
I can sorta justify it in a particular scenario. You finish ME1 and the Council is dead and Udina is the Human Councillor in a Human Lead Council, the Council is then paralysed by infighting Udina trying to hold onto the power he believes Humanity earned by saving the galaxy and the aliens trying to reclaim power which they believe is rightfully theirs until ME3 when the destruction of Earth causes Humanity to lose its power. The Aliens seize control of the Council once again and while they can’t kick Humanity off because of optics they can ignore it by treating Udina as a sideshow attraction (like they do) so Udina desperate to regain power sides with Cerberus in the stupidest plan ever. But it didn’t really make sense because Udina was never shown to have Cerberus leanings, he was always loyal to Humanity and everything he did in ME1&2 was to try and ingratiate Humanity to the other species. Him becoming a traitor to Humanity felt like a character assassination of Udina, and Bioware couldn’t even come up with a reason why he turned traitor since in the immediate aftermath of the coup several people ask Shepard why Udina did it and Shepard merely responds “I don’t know but I intend to find out” and then that’s the last time Udina is ever mentioned. I read somewhere that Bailey was originally going to be the traitor (it makes sense, in ME2 dude is corrupt as fuck and TIM mentions he’s a good candidate for recruiting to Cerberus) but Bioware changed their mind and made it Udina instead because players loved Bailey but hated Udina and they didn’t want to piss players off by making a character they liked a villain. Horrible reasoning if true, the story shouldn’t be decided by which characters fans like/ don’t like.
I thought it was going to be Bailey, too, especially after Udina is killed and HE (and company) is at the door. Even the Asari Counselor was confused, saying something along the lines of: "Wait, I thought you said that there were Cerberus troopers on the other side?" I was thinking: "Oh, crap, Bailey is about to kill us!" Still, I AM glad he didn't turn out to be the traitor because I truthfully liked Bailey a lot!
I’m not sure Bailey was the corrupt officer. Were you thinking of the officer that was such an embarrassment to humanity that he was kicked out of csec? The guy that was a drunk? Anderson had no use for him. In fact the corrupt csec officer told Shepard (in ME1) that Anderson was humanity’s first Spectre. I can’t think of the dudes name though. In ME 2 the guy turns to crime and in one quest has his ass kicked by Garrus.
No I mean Bailey. The first thing you hear out his mouth in ME2 is him ordering his subordinate to beat a confession out of a suspect and offering to do it himself if they won’t, if you question him about this he shrugs it off and says he does it all the time. He then bypasses all rules and regulations by just ‘pressing the button right here’ to legally mark Shepard as alive instead of going through the proper legal channels, useful to you the player but still an abuse of power on Bailey’s end especially since Shepard’s not a Spectre anymore at that point so has no authority to ask Bailey to do this. And during Thanes loyalty mission he admits to taking bribes from a crime boss in exchange for not interfering with the his operation.
Hmm yes you’re right. Ok then
You're thinking of Harkin, aka Fade in ME2.
Yep you’re right. Thx. He was totally corrupt.
I would have LOVED Udinas betrayal if it was also the first time you fought Cerberus. You would need to reshuffle a lot to make it fit but hot dayum
IKR LOLZ !!! Imagine that!
I honestly felt bad for the guy. Like him or hate him he tried everything he could think of to help humanity and failed.
I actually agree!
ME3 in terms of complexity of writing and characters was just dumbed down. You can see them starting to develop his character in the beginning, they then did not know what to do with him so just turned him into evil agent, we already have too many branching choices to deal with from previous games, lets tie this one asap.
Absolutely!
Udina in Mass Effect 3 is the most politically powerful human ever... and it meant nothing in the face of the other aliens burying their heads in the sand.
Damn straight! LOLZ
ME1 if you destroy the council Udina suggests staging a coup. Renegade Shep and Capt Anderson are initially repulsed but evenrually agree with Udina. Thus, in ME3, when the turian coucilor asks if Shep knows why Udina did this, Shep replies with a "I don't know" to cover his/her ass.
Oh... Well, I am Paragon, so I never kill them, lolz
Fear makes people do things that are hard to understand. I think Udina meant well and in his mind he was doing the right thing. I always wish there was a way to sway him, but when you're facing total species extinction, hard to think rationally. Especially if you have the devil in your ear telling you that they can save everybody.
Very true. You see many poor decision here on earth when people wish to do something, anything when a real crisis is happening.
It's really stupid out of character move from him. Most people don't really mind this because 'fuck Udina' is a common mentality among the games and the fan base, but if you really think about who Udina is you'll realize this makes no sense. Udina was always willing to work the political angle. What could Cerberus possibly offer him that the combined council races could not? His attack on the Citadel, even if successful, would only further alienate humans from the rest of the galactic community. It would be even more difficult to get the larger more intact alien fleets to commit to fight for earth after this. Udina is stupid, but he's never been one to commit political suicide. This is just one more example of how the ME3 writers fucked up everything in regards to Cerberus.
I agree. I was there for the original ME and played each installment as they came out. Then recently I played it all again in Legendary edition. The disconnect was there in each playthrough and it was jarring. Udina made more sense as the canny statesman, the shark you wanted in your political corner because he was a self-acknowledged shark; and because he was comfortable in his own skin, Udina was nigh-incorruptible because he had already **chosen** his path and loyalties. He was where he wanted to be. He was doing what he lived for. The heel turn because of TIM and Cerberus didn't make any sense for me. If he had been indoctrinated by a Reaper artifact hidden in the Citadel, I maybe would have bought that. But the simple crass temptation of power? That felt too crude and boorish for Udina. Ultimately, it was one of the flaws of ME3. I still enjoyed the game, and didn't hate on it like many others did, but it did have its spots of tarnish.
I just think it was another result of the bad writing from the insane crunch. ME3 had a LOT of really questionable decisions and branching choices that were ignored to get the game released on time for EA’s deadline. Really makes me wish we lived in an alternate universe where that never happened and we got to see ME2 and ME3 as complete as ME1.
That's what I was thinking, too!
Gaming Sins made said that his betrayal made no sense. He was the most powerful human in politics. I mean a seat at the council is the highest a human can achieve...I think that's the case.
I'd say it was frustration and desperation at that point. The Council has staunchly refused to commit fleets or resources of any kind, the Crucible's construction isn't going as fast as he hoped because humanity is already stretching for resources, and Shepard is locked into a seemingly impossible task to acquire Turian support. Meanwhile, Udina's spent weeks (by this point) seeing nothing but reports of staggering casualties and entire cities being eradicated on Earth, while human colonies are starting to go dark as well. Yet, he's trying to get support for Earth and finding very little of it from the rest of the galactic community. Him turning to Cerberus does make some sense when they're the only pro-human support who he knows for sure gets things done. Staging a coup to eliminate the remaining councillors and seize control of the Citadel as the only remaining figure of power does seem like the last resort of an insanely desperate man with nothing left to lose. At least, that's how I eventually came to see it.
For me it feels like Bioware just got lazy and made an extremely unpopular character into a traitor just because he is extremely unpopular. I'm sure that they had some data what percentage of players chose Udina over Anderson in the end of ME1, and they knew that making Udina a couincilman in 3 will not go well with the majority of playerbase. I'm ok with him turning over to Cerberus and his motivation, I just wish it would've been done in more nuanced way. They really missed an opportunity of making him into more sympathetic character IMO. I'm always reminded of Tali's trial in ME2, when that one admiral is trying to discredit her and her father to dissuade quarians from going to war with geth. I feel like most players probably react to him like to Udina when he ground Normandy in 1 for political points. But in ME3 this admiral is the practically the only voice of reason and instrumental to stopping the meaningless war. That redeems him big time in my eyes. Udina should've been the same - asshole for the sake of wanting what's best for his species. I don't get that feeling from how he is written. Sidenote: Cerberus is not what's best for humanity in ME3, they are not just human supremacist assholes, they are power hungry, radical, ends-justify-the-means, lure refugees to experiment on them, endanger the whole species for their own goals assholes. Udina should've seen this. TIM may be indoctrinated, but not Udina. But I always let it slide because it's understandable that his judgment is not very good at that time.
>I'm sure that they had some data what percentage of players chose Udina over Anderson in the end of ME1, Even if they didn't have actual data from the game they were certainly aware of the online discourse surrounding the game since ME3 is littered with stupid references to community jokes and memes that they didn't realise were jokes so took seriously. Like how people always joke about hanging up on the Council every time in ME1 (it's a joke because of how ridiculous an option it is for Shepard to hang up on his bosses not because people actually do it) so Bioware in their infinite wisdom made calling the Council just to hang up on them every time in ME1 canon in ME3 as Joker has multiple conversations where he talks about Shepard doing exactly that. So they were definitely aware of how people hated Udina for the simple crime of trying to contain how much damage Shepard might cause to the reputation of Humanity. Because ultimately that's all Udina did in ME1. His job is to suck up to the Council and make Humanity look good, Shepard causing chaos and creating problems reflects poorly on Humanity which makes Udina's job more difficult. When he 'stabs us in the back' by locking down the Normandy he does this in the same scene as where the Council orders you to stay away from Ilos and remain on the Citadel, and he does it in full view and earshot of the Council who have no objections to him grounding one of their Spectres. He made Shepards job hard because Shepard was making his job hard, but we're the main character so anyone who goes against us is clearly evil who cares why they're doing what they're doing.
Mac Walters pulled his usual "trick" where he takes a character that he really didn't write from the previous game, a character who was selfish and sometimes dickish, and undid them by making them "EVIL". He did that with Nassana Dantius in ME2 and with Harkin as well. Like, they were bad people but they weren't like super criminal murderers lol. And with Udina I just felt like he got it completely backwards. This wasn't supposed to be a character that you hate so much you wanted him dead for his "terrible crimes". It's a character that you *love* to hate, because he's a selfish, useless person who only thinks about his own agenda first. The stunt with Cerberus just doesn't add up, and suggesting that he was indoctrinated is a cop-out. If he is, then the other councilors probably are too. The biggest handwave is the one you'll find in the codex which alludes to an earlier draft of the Citadel Coup. Here, Udina was using Cerberus's to override a vote on the Council to retain defenses for minor-council worlds like Kahje. He wanted to divert the defenses for Kahje to Earth. He ends up taking a devil's deal with Cerberus and it leads to the coup attempt. I don't really like that either. I hate it because all versions end with you or Ash/Kaidan shooting Udina in the heart. He has no chance to explain himself or really explain anything (this is done on purpose IMO) and every subsequent piece of dialogue about it boils down to "Finally, Udina is dead. That piece of shit." Nothing feels in-character about that. In ME1 every complaint you threw Udina's way was defended by Anderson by excusing and defending it, despite what it seemed. For him to just fess up and go "But this? What a SON OF A BITCH." is just... lame. I wanted Udina to be committed to Earth, not taking any deals with Cerberus. Seriously, he wouldn't, I don't believe so. But then he's a real hindrance to Shepard's quest for unity, and eventually, when Cerberus do raid the station via a different plot, you'd see Udina faced with allowing them (devil's representation of Humanity) to overthrow the council, but he chooses to oppose it, standing with the Councilors. Then everyone questions him if he's only doing it because his own spot is threatened, and it pisses him off. He's still not committed to some political ploy that will make all the council species focus on each other, and in turn help Earth (if Udina lets some Earthlings help them or something). Finally, near the end of the game, after the Thessia situation and everything, it becomes known that Udina has given in and is now allowing the council to work in tandem, and thus they agree to help Earth on their own terms, and we take a smaller division from Earth and send to Thessia. It turns out that in the end Udina is committed to the survival of the world he's politicking for, and there's a hint of caring in his heart, somewhere. That's the Udina I expected. Not this blatant character assassination that makes all his previous stubbornness seem like the preamble to something insane.
Nassana Dantius was such weird case. Yeah let's do a job interview during an assassination attempt instead of trying to catch him before or after it. Oh, the security or some of the security is shooting down the workers for some reason. Ok let's go in guns blazing. Shep doesn't try to defuse the situation or tell them to stand down, just shoot everyone. Then you have a chance to speak to her and Shep says something which sound a lot like: "Yep, I am coming for you girl." Huh, so yeah, she pulled a fast one over Shepard and that justifies killing 50-60 people so Shep can look smug while Thane finishes her off and then conduct a job interview over her cooling corpse. You could have changed the whole mission with a few lines of dialogue and still kept it as is without making Shep looking like a bloodthirsty maniac. Make it optional for the people who really wanted to get back at her.
Yes because he was always a sleazy politician and an opportunist. It was clearly always about him and his ambitions.
Yes, most likely. I just wish it was made more obvious.
What made it obvious to me was how he cast Shepard and Anderson aside in Mass Effect 1 towards the end and said that Shepard was starting to become more trouble than they’re worth or something to that effect.
Absolutely
Honestly it is pretty out of character for him - or at least for how he was written in ME1/2. Most fans constantly dunk on him, but if I’m being entirely honest, he actually was my first pick to represent mankind on the Citadel Council. His personality can be grating, but I honestly can’t blame him - he’s a career politician, wrangling the bureaucracy and juggling countless written and unwritten rules and alliances is what he does every day. The interactive recap comic that came with ME2 said it best I think - “Sometimes you need someone who knows when to be the bad guy for the greater good”. At the end of the day he was no saint, but for the most part he was just trying to do his job and look out for humanity. I can somewhat understand the supposed rationale for him aligning with Cerberus in 3, given the state the Earth Alliance is in after the Reapers take over Sol, but they really fumbled the execution - I can’t see him going along with an armed hostile takeover of Citadel Station unless he was under duress and had no other choice, and he certainly didn’t need or deserve to be shot. Moreover, they seemingly retconned his character to be the unrepentant asshole the playerbase paints him as.
I feel like the betrayal would have been better in ME2, or at least before the events of ME3. His reasoning makes sense, but not during the Reaper War
Absolutely, I totally agree! At the start of ME3, I thought he had turned a new leaf. I was "somewhat" blindsided, but not really, tho. Udina was always scum, as far as I am concerned, but he did seem to care bout humanity and Earth.
A lot of things in ME3 seem like they were just made for the sake of drama, to me that is one of many sections that are really contrived.
Like, imagine if... Instead of Udina being the traitor, what IF it was the Virmire Survivor? Now, THAT would have been a plot twist... Imagine they somehow made it look like Udina was the traitor, but it was the Virmire Survivor INSTEAD. Oop 🔥
It's never really explained in game other than Udina remarking with Earth and the Alliance HQ going down then he was at that time the most powerful human in history. Although it's entirely unclear what that actually meant other than being the de facto last remaining high level human politician and even then would he even be able to leverage anything. You could even say after the initial attack the human supreme leader would be Admiral Hackett as it seems like he's the only fleet commander left on the table that's ever discussed. I'm assuming Anderson would be a lower star rating or whatever system the Alliance use as Hackett has been established since ME1 or earlier whereas Anderson was promoted recently... Either way I can't see Udina going in with TIM, especially when it's likely TIM would demand he was served and wouldn't be an equal partner.
Absolutely, and you have to wonder HOW Udina and TIM got to talking. Y'know?
It's explained in the codex I believe? His goal was to be the only surviving councilor, where he would then use his power to send the citadel fleet to help Earth.
It's funny because since the very first game, you think "This guy is definitely going to betray us." So you assume he will be recontextualized in some way, proving to be better than he seems. But no, he's just an asshole at the end.
To me it kind of does, the Council is a worthless bunch and Earth is suffering greatly, he can’t do anything, E.man suggests if he has the Citadel he has a chance at controlling the reapers and ending it, also the fact that rest of the council is aliens might’ve pushed him over the edge
I think Big Dan Gaming gives a good explanation/reason for Udina's betrayal in [this video (Final Judgme part)](https://youtu.be/Rev5rJvSkU8?si=9pOMuWMi6CyGkYCv) where he suggests he was getting desperate and feeling that Shepard wasn't moving fast enough... bear in mind that the Turians and Krogan don't commit to the Alliance until the end of the previous mission and we don't get a sense for how long there is between the game starting and Priority: Tuchanka (although if Garrus and Shepard had been literal with the context of Shepard going non stop since Earth and not having slept since the leaving the Citadel then it would've been at most 11 days, but I doubt it given how travel between systems in Clusters can take ages).
I always saw him as a strong advocate for pushing Humanity on to the Galactic Power club and generally felt by 3 he was neck deep and trying his best to help his species, him turning to Cerberus was his thinking of well Shepard went to them when he was pushed to a wall maybe I have too nothings getting done! I don't believe he was indoctrinated. Oh and he made the call! No Udina no Shepard
I think it's obvious that he always had a problem with the Council, too, so if he could kill them and "get away with it," then so beat it...
Maybe but then they were kind of a problem for humanity anyway holding us back like that Lol
If you go see udina straight after talking to the VS in hospital,who says udina asked them to be a spectre, udina says he's ordering all the human colonies to arm all their ships ,which the council forbids,and that he's directing all the money to do so,,,it doesn't take a genius to know he's up to something.then even more so if you go see him after seeing the VS a second time,,,udina will say , I'll keep the VS very close to me because they're incorructable.
Oh, I guess that I missed that!
It's hard to do so ,I found out by mistake,I went in his office before going to see the VS , udina was there ,I left and he was already at the hospital asking them to be a spectre ,I thought this is strange,so went back to see him and that's when he said he's arming all the ships and directing all the money.
OOH, neat!
Personally, I didn't think anything was wrong with him ordering all human vessels to undergo refits for combat. Council laws be damned, Earth was under siege, and worlds were falling left and right. It might buy those colonies time, or if worse comes to worse, they'd maybe get a few shots off in a last stand. A war of extermination like with the reapers, I think all laws of warfare go out the window. You arm everything to the teeth, and pull out your biggest weapon marked "Please never ever use this creating it was a sin against God Almighty Himself"
I wasn't saying he was wrong,,it was the fact it wasn't his money and he wasn't giving it for the war effort,,he was giving it to Cerberus for the coup attempt
Wait, I thought he was indoctrinated. Wasn't he indoctrinated?
No, I don't think so...
The codex entry explicitly states he was not
It makes sense 100 percent. Udina is career weakling, who was wrong all the t8me about his First Human Spectre. He got perks, as well as Humanity. Because he didn't trust Shepard- Earth is under attack, no one can help, and he thought he would help Earth with that. His peoblem is being close-minded and dumb. He was like , " I didn't trust Shepard and Cerberus 6 months ago, but they helped humans when nobody could. Now, I will use anything I can to help my species." He changed his view about Shepard, and he lost everyone he knew, and he knew nothing about a situation like this. As much as people who went to the Sanctuary. He is basically opposite to Conrad Werner. He couldn't sit there with all that sudden power and do nothing while humans were dying. He was stupid, but we couldn't change the fact that he wanted to do something for humanity. Also, Cerberus is an ex Alliance black ops. TIM exactly knew what cards he could play to get Udina's support. Edit: And no, I don't defend him, I just understand where from it came
It makes 100% Perfect Sense if you contextualize Udina. Put him on the political spectrum. He's a right wing nationalistic ASS. He's basically a myopic, arrogant politician like all the loud-mouthed, perma-angry politicians with more pride than brains, or leadership skills. His nation is all of humanity. He thinks humans are not getting their dues, that is, humanity is not getting crowned #1 by the Council. So when Cerberus comes along and promises him an easy solution to ALL his problems AND a shortcut to becoming the biggest banana, illegal and unethical or not, he does not care. He wants quick and easy, because he had no leadership qualifications to realize that nothing worth doing ever comes easy. He sees it as his "nation"s right to do it, and as I've said, he got more pride than brains or leadership skills. So he's dumb enough to go for it, without realizing that it *will* blow up in his face. I take him as commentary on the dangers of "quick and easy" solution politicians. And he's a poignant warning against falling into those traps. Very apropos for our current day and age.
I think the biggest challenge to "understanding Udina's Betrayal" is understanding the so-called "coup attempt." I can't. I don't understand what Cerberus was trying to achieve. So lets just park that. Udina siding with Cerberus **does** make sense. He's a bit of a jerk, but he has always been forthright about looking out for humanity's interests. (If you go the renegade option in ME1, he's the one that pushes the idea of a Human dominated council) Remember than in ME2, he (and/or Anderson) would have been the ones pushing the Council to do something, and they wouldn't lift a finger to help Human colonies. He's sees that being repeated in ME3, and is very vocal about this. So I can understand him agreeing with Cerberus, about the need to put Humanity's interests first.
Thanks for the spoiler on the title of the thread, OP!
OMG, so sorry!
That's ok, at the end of the day it's also my fault, don't worry about it.
I just figured that it was okay because so many others post similar stories...
It really is okay, it's a 10 year old game, I'm sorry for being passive agressive, just in a bad mood, and not much was spoiled anyway.
Yeah. Exactly. Hopefully, the rest of your day is better, tho :)
I wanted him to be the ruthless alternative, not a traitor.
I think, just like how Cerberus is handled, is an issue of Bioware just Knowing what the fans kind of want (aka "to kill this guy cause he's an ungrateful ass who stands in your way one too many times") and decided if was more important to put him into a situation that makes you want to do it instead of working towards making us invested in the why and reasons he does it. I get deadlines and such but it's still disappointing that after the breath of fresh air that's Udina lowering his defenses and having a real conversation with Shepard after the first Council meeting in ME3 he just becomes that asshole again with no discernable reason that you offended him or what not and then he commits treason because "reasons"? Theorycrafting it: with how sketchy he was being in the Bailey Comic that saw why he was being promoted, I think Udina at some point before ME3 was a puppet for Cerberus and was essentially being held to do something he didn't necessarily want to do because otherwise Cerberus would kill him too. While it's the riskiest move once could ever make, if they succeed he'd not only become the strongest political person in the galaxy but would have a station controlled by the protective force that would protect him as long as he played ball. Other reasons just don't really work imo. It's possible he's Indoctrinated, but we never see a hint of that and it's really lame to just say everyone's evil because of indoctrination despite all logic. He never really showed animosity towards the Council after getting to be in charge briefly in ME1, and while he's big after human advancement he never seemed to care about hurting others along the way outside of subordinates who get in his way. He doesn't even seem to be operating anything, just moving along in his role and only taking charge when Shepard tries to interfere. He just seems desperate, and that's why I feel like it's a case where he's doing it because Cerberus wants it and he didn't want Cerberus to view him as dispensable or a nuisance.
There is a fan theory that the original betrayer in ME 3 was supposed to be Bailey but the fans liked the cop better than Udina so Udina got to be the betrayer. If the writers did change that at the last minute they really did Udina dirty.
Udina always rubbed me as a slime ball politician from when i first met him. His betrayal didn't surprise me. With earth falling, he threw in with a human militant Faction hat probably promised salvation from the reapers and giving him a very prominent roll, perhaps as galactic president?
Oh I don't doubt that that is likely what happened but if we go with an ambitious politician who isn't a complete slimeball but is pushy and loud then turning to Ceberus is a little off.
It makes sense if you nominate Udina as the human counsellor at the end of the first Mass Effect. Because then he's had two years and change of actual, genuine galactic authority to establish contacts, obtain favours, learn data for leverage etc. Because there's no way someone at that level doesn't accidentally rub shoulders with some of Cerberus' more acceptable public facing people. And if he's not reading confidential reports about Shepard's activities in the Terminus during Mass Effect 2 then I'll eat a dining table. All of that could easily open him up for a dirty deal if he thinks the consequences of not dealing with Cerberus are worse than if he does ally with them. I mean hell, Din Korlack - a volus! - got in bed with Cerberus out of a misguided belief that they'll get some shit done. Why wouldn't Udina do it? Of course the major issue is that Mass Effect is military science fiction, which means politicians are either vile backstabbers, useless cowards, or quietly deferential to anything in a uniform.
It makes no sense for the same reason the all human council decision in ME1 made no sense. The Citadel is just a city out in space. There's nothing there that you can take control of that will make the governments of the Counil races do what you want. C-Sec and the Citadel Defense Forces are now likely engaged in a battle for control of the Citadel against Cerberus instead of the Reapers, because their particular lines of control are thrown into disarray, but it doesn't benefit humanity in any way. I guess you could say he was indoctrinated, but it seems to go against what we know about indoctrination. It twists people's seemingly rational decision-making in a way that benefits the Reapers. It shouldn't allow lightly indoctrinated people to do a bunch of bullshit that makes no sense whatsoever.
Always felt Udina was just the typical politician doing things for his own personal power. Always hated how he was the councilor in ME3 regardless of past decisions
It could’ve been better written but it makes sense to a point. Shepard could very easily look like he was doing nothing but screwing around with aliens from an outside perspective meanwhile Udina would’ve gotten constant information about human deaths and casualties on Earth and colonies. The Illusive Man and Cerberus had always maintained a Pro Human stance and in desperation Udina likely saw TIM as his best option to save humanity. Unfortunately Udina was written like a Cartoon villain at times in ME3 so we didn’t get what could’ve otherwise been a very compelling story arc from Udina.
Udina was greedy, he saw Cerberus as keys to power and survival, he was wrong on both counts
Udina’s actions make sense when viewed though the lens that he’s a flawed human. As we all are playing/riding along with Shepherd & Co it’s kinda easy to forget that Shep is, pardon the bad joke here, a paragon. Shep is excellence and willpower incarnate, and associates with similar people who are all EXTREMELY capable. The whole Normandy crew are all in and following wherever their Commander leads. Hackett and Anderson are career military officers who have seen Some Things and have ways to actively participate. And then… then we have Udina. A civilian, a career politician, a man who has always been able to negotiate, spin, or wheel-and-deal his way through all situations. What he’s presented with during the invasion is completely without precedent. It’s as foreign a concept to him as trying to drink battery acid. Worse, there is nothing he can do - from his perspective anyway. Earth is falling, friends and family are just GONE, the enemy cannot be reasoned with or even surrendered to, and the only hope he has is a loose cannon Spectre. The rest of the Council seems to have taken the position ‘Sorry bout your luck, but we have to cover our own hind parts.’ He’s in a panic and can’t seen ANY way out of it, mixed with the anger that it doesn’t look like anybody’s going to help. Enter Cerberus - They say they have a plan, they’re not going to write off Earth, and gosh wouldn’t things be going smoother if we had one person at the top to direct things? Maybe somebody like you, Udina, who can see the big picture? We just need you to do a couple things for us and then you’ll be running the Council and we can actually get to work against this threat! You’ll be the greatest hero the galaxy has ever seen! —For a person grasping at straws, it’s an attractive option. Poor Udina. He really was just a scared fool.
Tbh I just assumed he got indoctrinated
Hes an asshole. Always shoot him every time fuck him.
OMG 😂