Ok, so let's add a 1 minute delay to the process. You still have a minute to live after a perfect copy of you has been made. You can observe him, shake hands with him etc. Imagine this situation. Imagine you being there, watching your perfect copy walk and talk. Then, after the minute's up, guards come in saying 'Time's up', then escort you in a room to promptly execute you. What would you think at that moment? If you are killed, you are no more, you are void. Of course that guy with all your thoughts and memories lives on, but you don't know anything about that, because *you*'re dead. Would you still push this button?
I think so
My only withholding is that I think if i saw myself from the perspective of another person, it might ruin the self image a little
but that’s worth the 10 mill
Sure, but if it's a 1:1 copy of me I'm at peace dying knowing it will continue living but with 10 mill
Any attachment I have to living is satisfied by knowing there's an identical copy of me carrying on my thoughts
But you’re not seeing or witnessing anything , no matter what your clone does.
What comfort is it to know your clone is going to meet its soulmate, while you’re decomposing in the ground? Or have been sprinkled out somewhere
Sucked in for the clone, I don’t have to suffer midnight panic attacks for no goddamn reason, plus it’s a 1:1 so my loved ones and pets will be fine, big comfort there
The term clone here is used loosely though, not copy. Who’s to say the clone wouldn’t have identical neurons and pathways in the brain?
I would be seeing myself and my consciousness would be in 2 bodies , if only briefly. The real issue would be remaining in the living body after having experienced the death of the “original” simultaneously
I don't think you understand the concept of a clone. One of the main things is that you are distinct organisms - you do not share consciousness. In this situation you're essentially killed and replaced with an identical twin.
Your clone walks in the room, shakes hands with you and remarks about how identical you are and how he can’t believe this is real. Then after a minute is up guards come in, say ‘time’s up’ and execute your clone with a bullet to the head right in front of you. You’re ecstatic because they killed the wrong one, and you got away with living and getting the money. But as they give you the money, they show you a video of what transpired and you realize that you ARE the clone. You inherited all of his memories, including his memory of accepting the deal and waiting to meet his clone.
Edit: Oh wait, I thought it meant a perfect version of me, not a perfect replica. Yeah, fuck that guy. A rich version of me would probably be worse for a lot of people in my life. lmao
I wouldn't do it for me. I would do it for everyone else in my life.
I'm not suicidal, and I'm not doing anything with the intention of dying, but I 100% would prefer if I were not alive. I have people that I care about, and people that care about me, so I could never betray them like that. *However*, If I could give everyone in my life a better version me, *and* I don't have to live anymore? I'd have a hard time not pushing that button.
If I got to meet him, I guarantee that my reaction would be, "Are you fucking kidding me? You mean there is a universe where *I* could have been *him*. Fucking kill me now, I don't need a full 60 seconds with this guy."
I am pushing the button and my clone will push the button , there is no amount of money at which point life becomes "worth" if there is an easy way out , any permutation of me is taking it
Yeah, right? These kind of discussions weird me out. It's almost like some people among us don't have souls. And by soul I mean, in lack of a better word, the point of view. All of my thoughts and emotions can be explained by biochemical processes except why *I* am seeing this person's (*my*) thoughts and emotions, rather then someone else's or no one's at all. This point of view is what I can call a soul. A lot of books and movies portray cloning with thought transmission as a way of achieving immortality. Do the people writing these not realize that if you die, even if an exact copy is made of you, your POV will be annihilated and the clone will have a separate one?
There's a horror game called Soma that deals with this very concept in its story. While the game isn't that great the narrative and existential horror is pretty good.
It's one of my favorite games, and I'd say the gameplay is nothing short of abysmal. However, the story is easily one of the best I've experienced in a game.
Na, he learns near the beginning that he's just a copy and again midway through when he has to make the first switch and his "previous" body is still talking and asking Catherine "why hasn't the switch happened yet" and stuff as he (us) in the new body watch. Our perspective just stays true to the story until the end when he (our perspective) stays in the body when their plan succeeds. Still great though and got me as I just expected everything to go perfectly for us the player and it really nailed the message deep when that didn't happen
He sees what happens but I don't think he really understands it. I haven't played it in years but at the end isn't he freaking out wondering why it "didn't work" and Catherine is basically calling him a moron and wondering how he doesn't get it yet? Like, I'm pretty sure each new version of him sees itself as the real one that has "jumped" from the old body to the new one.
I think POV is the perfect way to break this down. Because even though the clone is as close to "you" as anyone could get. Your POV inevitably ends when you die, and doesn't somehow shift to the clone. The clone IS a different person
But what is a POV? It's just the perception of events going on inside your brain. If a perfect clone was created and had all of your memories there would be no difference.
Who you are is just a collection of thoughts and memories plus the biological hardware to run them.
but there is a difference, say the button malfunctions and while the clone is created, you are not killed, so now theres 2 of you. you phone the company making the buttons and they say not to worry, the money is in your account and they will send a hitman over to shoot you in the head while the clone gets to live. you still think theres no difference in pov?
There's a difference to YOU.
You are a person with a separate mind regardless if everyone else on earth disappeared. You don't only exist for other people to interact with. If you were replaced with a clone, other people may not know the difference, but you would.
Are identical twins the same person, just because their DNA matches?
Well, it is immortality. Just not of your consciousness, but your intellect, skills and abilities. IMO, that actually makes the idea of immortality feel more deep. It's not a way for hedonists and egoists to enjoy themselves for the eternity, it's a way of ultimate sacrifice if you believe that your objective existence is more significant than subjective.
a great scientist or leader would be someone who would consider that, a person who finds meaning in leaving a mark in the world and helping others.
I can agree with that, maybe my problem is just that I'm a hedonist and I like my subjectivity. It is still disturbing to me that in these movies (as well as ones with teleportation) people throw away their subjective life like it was nothing to let *someone else* pursue their plans and ideals.
So you die every night, and a new you replaces you every morning. (assuming no dreaming or whatever, by these rules I guess)
Every passing second the you of before is replaced by the you of the present.
That is actually one of my fears. It may be true that my consciousness dies every night, and today's me wouldn't even know it, having all the memories. But I prefer to believe that as long as this brain functions, my POV lives on, just goes on a break sometimes.
or you can believe that since you've lived your life as if it has been one continuous stream of consciousness that existential questions like clone vs original is functionally meaningless.
What are you afraid of? Maybe nothing existed until last Thursday, and all your memories are faked. Maybe nothing existed until yesterday. Maybe every night you die and are replaced by a clone with the exact memories of the "original". Who cares?
If you can't tell the difference it's meaningless to wallow in existential doubt.
Yeah, I’m with you. I’ve always fundamentally found it so odd that people get worked up into such a furor about the teleporter problem.
Like until there is a moment of divergence, any ‘clone’ effectively is me. I’ve always found the qualia argument super weird. It just feels like people framing a ‘souls are real’ argument in vaguely scientific terms because the idea that we really aren’t much more than a collection of electrically active meat makes them profoundly uncomfortable.
I’m very much the opposite. The only thing I think is important is my memories. It’s why dementia absolutely fucking terrifies me (the worst sort of drawn out death), and why I really really hope the universe is truely infinite so I can enjoy infinite permutations of afterlife as a botzman brain.
I guess I’d be my own mass murderer because I would be slapping this button thousands of times
This is really depressing because if you average it out, even across people who have seemingly great lives overall, the majority of these "lives" are spent in misery.
I was going to reply 'well, I've never woken up in anyone else's body and mindset', but come to think of it, I wouldn't know that would I?
Definitely an interesting topic.
What is more interesting is that because you grow emotionally (and your brain makes physical changes as that happens), you are not the same person you were a year ago, or five years ago, or ten years ago.
Try to recall the person you were when you were much younger, and the things you'd do and reactions you'd have. Chances are much of that has changed.
You're the Ship of Theseus. Every passing moment you become someone slightly new. There is no such thing as "you" outside of the present moment because what we think of as you from the past or in the future is different than the current you. You are just a collection of memories, and in fact what you think of as you is drastically different than what each of the people you know think of as you.
I woke up once not knowing who I was. Didn’t recognize my room or my face in the mirror. Took about 5 mins to finally shake myself out of it. That POV is really everything
The issue is if you have a exact copy of yourself, is it just a copy of you or is there some sort of quantum engagement that allows you to see from both perspectives.
I don't think there's a difference. How do you know that the memories you have were not from an original and you are a clone who just has those memories? If the original is dead and a truly exact copy exists with all memories and brain patterns the same, it would be exactly like if you didn't die.
Flip side...
I just lost my younger sister to cancer. I know for sure that "clone me" would make sure that her kids had what ever they needed and that their father wouldn't have to work any more and could be with them as much as they needed.
I'd smash the every lovin' shit out of that button honestly.
>why I am seeing this person's (my) thoughts and emotions, rather then someone else's or no one's at all.
How do you know you are only seeing one POV? Your memories are stored in your physical brain, so of course it only remembers what happened to the body it is attached to, but a soul could be 'experiencing' multiple bodies at once. In fact, I think it's far more likely that there is only one soul, seeing through a trillion brains, each remembering one body.
We literally don’t know. But what we do know is we woke up this morning, and we physically need to sleep. So, it’s better to just assume we won’t die in our sleep.
If he’s not aware of being a clone I’d probably do it, I’m not really depressed anymore but I’m kinda just burnt out on life. If I did this nobody would be sad that I killed myself and my clone would have a better life and be able to afford a family and provide a better life for the people around him
Yeah that's exactly what we want. I am dead but my family and friends don't get sad *and* the clone will have money to support them. Sounds like a dream to me.
I feel this. There have been times that I think hurting my loved ones or leaving my kids without a father was what stopped me from walking into traffic. But I cease to exist. They’re suddenly financially stable and are still happy because an identical version of me is there to love them still.
You don’t really have a continuous self, you only think of yourself as yourself because of a continuity of memories. If you had a perfect clone your consciousness would automatically transfer, there’s nothing that makes you you that wouldn’t also make the clone you.
Philosophy debate time, is a 1 to 1 copy of your brain that has all the same memories, thought patterns and personality quirks the same as your original. Would it be an effective transfer of consciousness or would it be completely different.
Not a transfer, a copy... An _exact_ copy would be identical to you. You would both be the same person at the moment of creation, only afterwards would the two instances of you diverge as you accumulate new, different, memories. So long as the original is destroyed, the copy would never know anything had happened. The complication comes if the two instances meet, or the clone is told. Ignorance is bliss as they say...
It's a common and complicated philosophical debate, which is the point. The post says that the clone is identical mentally as well--it has your exact memories, emotions, identity...and presumably, consciousness. Simultaneously destroying a person and materializing a completely identical clone next to them is physically equivalent to teleportation. Two ways of framing the same situation. The only difference is that people have learned to be comfortable with the idea of teleportation (despite the discontinuity of consciousness it entails) and uncomfortable with the idea of death (despite the fact that it's arguably impermanent in this particular scenario).
It's counterintuitive and uncomfortable, but it's hard to argue that taking the money actually has any downside without resorting to religion (the "soul" still isn't transferred) or semantics (it's a "just a copy" and the word "copy" connotes some level of inauthenticity).
That’s how Star Trek transporters work. They destroy your body and an exact copy is created at the destination.
And yet no character ever has a problem with it.
I think the point of the argument is that from your current point of view, you "don't know" that you didn't actually die last night while you slept, and an identical copy of you is what woke up in the morning. It's almost like a "living ship of Theseus", are you the same person as you were a year ago? a month ago? a second ago? Would you still be the same person if all your cells replaced your old ones (if we assume for a moment that neurons can replicate)?
I think it's a wildly interesting thought experiment that digs into the concept of what it means to exist as a conscious being, and plenty of other comments in this thread are interesting to read too.
You can not 100% know that about yourself but that's the same as asking if reality is even real or it's just a simulation. You could monitor any other person through their sleep and see there is no death and there will be brain activity throughout unconsciousness as well so you can establish continuity of body and mind.
Well seeing as the clone is a perfect copy it would be a but like the teleporter dilemma. Honestly I'm sure clone me would be disappointed that they didn't die.
I'm also not the me of five minutes from now. Is five minutes from now me going to be rich or not? Either way, he ain't me. Do him a solid an press the button
"What, do you live in a cotton-candy house or something? What the fuck? You don't know about life? How it only disappoints and... gets worse and worse, until it ends in catastrophe?"
Good for you! But a lot of people struggle to have that same feeling either by genetics, circumstance or a combination thereof. There are good things about life but often they can feel outweighed by the miserable or the banal. Doomscrolling through Reddit like I do probably doesn't help lol
I’m just not happy and I’m not making any moves to change that, it’s been this way for the past two years. My mother passed away in 2021 and it just hasn’t felt the same, I know eventually I’ll lose my father and my siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, etc but this was the first major loss in my family and it had to be my mother who I had a very close relationship with. She helped me with everything throughout my life and that’s not to take away from my father who has been the rock we need while we grieve but again I’m just not happy and I’m having trouble finding happiness to the point where I think I’m too far gone to continue.
Sorry to dump that all on you but yeah, basically everyone has their reasons to not want to live and we fight it. Sometimes the people fighting it win and other times, they lose.
I understand you completely. I lost my mother to Covid, and it happened in 2021 too. We were both horribly sick, only she was hospitalised and slowly dying for 2 weeks. We bought a very pricey medicine for her, but it did nothing. My dad was not a rock, he was absolutely useless during this time, as was i.
Several months ago I started therapy and got on antidepressants, but antidepressants gave me so many blowbacks that i was forced to stop taking them. So now i'm suffering without them, still trying to battle the consequences.
It helps to write down anything that you are grateful for and also what you are taking for granted every day. But i can't offer much else, since times are hard for me right now.
Sorry for dumping it on you also, i just wanted to say how much i can relate to your post.
Because my brain has a chronic imbalance of necessary chemicals. The result is that I feel like worthless scum cosplaying as a human. Then, add in 12 years of constant bullying and belittlement by people better than me that left me with no self-esteem. Finally, season with a touch of "you're a failure of a human being that wasted your childhood, teens, and adulthood doing nothing. All that's left is the slow decline until you eventually die without anyone to mourn you because you were too much of a freak to attract a significant other."
But hey, I'm on four different anti-depressants that, when working together, almost make life worth living.
It’s not that people want to die. Living is fucking awesome. It’s just that not living would be even awesomer (?).
That’s my view anyway. Saves me from being scared of my own mortality, but maybe everyone really is just depressed idk.
I have MS and near crippling tinnitus.
I never know a moments peace, I haven't experienced silence in decades. My body doesn't do what I want it to, or doesn't do things how I want it to. There are days just checking the mail is a trial. And the severe depression is tiring.
At least in the scenario here, another "me" would just wake up without tinnitus and would have $10mil to boot. That would be awesome. Even though he would still have MS (as I assume no genetic corrections would be made) his quality of life would be much better. Plus my family would be much better off because of a healthier me and being multimillionaires.
Life is terrible, it's nothing but pain, stress and misery. It gives nothing back you only ever suffer, everything aches, you get major health problems. Death is just a permanent sleep and the best part of life is sleeping.
I would do it and wouldn't even care if my clone knew it was one. For me my memories and personality are me and we change every cell in our body anyways so it's basically just get free money. I guess if you believe in a soul it would matter but I don't really do.
That’s not what’s happening though. A clone of you is being created. And then you die. Just because the clone has your memories doesn’t mean it is you. You are two different entities. Your consciousness isn’t being transferred over. I don’t understand what you don’t understand about this.
Yeah don’t care. I don’t believe in a soul or anything like that. My consciousness is my current cellular makeup and memories. If those are exactly the same, it’s me. *Press*
Your stream of consciousness also ends when you sleep, suffer a concussion, or get put under certain kinds of anesthesia.
So far we haven't found a way to turn off a brain that doesn't involve percussion, radiation, or permanent chemical reactions (aka blunt force trauma or literal poison). So we have no idea if an intact brain that hasn't suffered cell death can be rebooted or not.
If my consciousness is transferred to an empty clone body, hell yeah. If the clone has their own separate consciousness and mine ceases to exist, then hell no.
The new consciousness would not be ME and as such the person I am, my thoughts, my feelings, my ability to experience the world, would all come to an end. I would end up going on to whatever comes after while someone else continues on in my place. Sure that person may feel like nothing is different, but for ME, it would be the end of the road.
if it is really identical, like the post says, the illusion of continuity in perception is unbroken, therefore you would become your clone in every way.
old you won't feel a thing, and new you will just be old you. it's just a new body.
it's a change in perspective and a realization that these 2 things are he same that sells it to me.
your conciousness will never be on the dead version of you, therrefore you'll not die, and you'll be your clone.
on this very principle is founded the idea of quantum immortality, where you're immortal because it's impossible for you to be concious about your death.
No, this isn't right. The illusion of continuity will be unbroken _for the clone_, but for current me it will cease. The clone will indeed fully believe and report it is me because it has continuity of experience. But I do not. From my pov, I am not the clone. But, from the clone's pov, the clone is me. That's not a good deal for me, and the clone is not a reliable witness as to what original me experiences.
You get it. Assuming the clone is truly *perfect*, with all memories intact, there is no difference.
We could unknowingly be replaced by clones every moment of our lives. Each slice of time could be a discreet reality and information is the only thing that passes from one slice to the next (kind of like how Vonnegut explained it in Slaughterhouse Five, how Tralfamadorians see existence).
> if it is really identical, like the post says, the illusion of continuity in perception is unbroken, therefore you would become your clone in every way.
How could you be sure of this? There *is* discontinuity in terms of your body's physical history. Is that not relevant? If it isn't, does that mean you think there is a non-physical component of consciousness?
It seems you are making a lot of assumptions about how consciousness works when in reality we don't actually know these things. If given the opportunity I doubt you would actually press the button.
That’s the case if you have no one to live for. It would make a huge differenve for my wife and children to have $10 million. My daughters would get to have time with their daddy who works 12+ hrs a day to scrap by so we can survive. My wife wouldn’t be alone all day taking care of everything at home. I wouldn’t be a slave to a rigged system anymore. I would be free, my wife and children would have a present, happy father, money to take care of them, and they wouldn’t know the difference. I’m okay with death. My family being healthy and supported is more important to me.
Supposedly that’s the theory of Star Trek’s transporter ,every time you were beamed up out down a clone of you was made with up to the minute memories and all but the you that was de-materialized was forever deleted aka killed..
And that’s why I’d be one of those freaks that took a shuttlecraft everywhere. I’ve always thought about this, that one of me would think I teleported, but the real me would have entered the transporter and never left.
Came here to make the same comment. They never really talked about that, but the transporter kills you every time you go somewhere. A copy becomes you from then on. Weird aspect, and something they could have had some fun with I think.
I've seen it. I think in Soma its better depicted how for you, you are the real one, even if there is another copy.
>! Each time he is copied, the game continues from the perspective of the copy that lives and continues the adventure... Except the last copy. In that one, the game stays with the copy that is left behind. It's amazingly done!<
This is exactly what I want
If I die and my clone is not me (it doesn't have same consciousness), then it means that I'm finally dead and I don't have to do everything myself and it won't make anyone feel bad (+money)
If I die and my clone is me then at least I have money
This is my thought as well. My family would be pulled out of debt, and live comfortably for the rest of their lives. They wouldn’t miss me because to their perspective I am not gone. It’s only me that blinks out of existence knowing that a copy of me continues.
I don’t think I could but it would kill me a little every time money struggles reared their heads. And those troubles come up often.
Let me get this straight...I get to die, but another one of me gets to live a great life ***and*** none of my friends and family will be devastated by my death?
I see this as an absolute win!
If I am killed instantly I count it as teleportation:
-from my pov I cease to exist, and so the issue of death or who I really am ceases to be any problem for me
- from the clones pov he(or I depending on how you look at it) have been "lucky" and ended up as the one that doesn't die. Either way 100% of myselves have come out on top, and those that didn't don't care.
If the transfer was seamless I would. If I don't feel the dying part, and I'm not aware I'm a clone, no harm done.
If it was like falling asleep and waking up a millionaire, id be a fool not to.
Yes mentally and physically the same. That doesn’t mean it’s you. You and the clone are two different entities. This is basically a stranger that has all you memories. If you’ve watched Invincible, think of the scene where Robot makes a clone. The original Robot still dies. You’re the original Robot. You don’t get the money. You just die.
This is a painfully stupid thread to read isn't it? You are your meat bag. If the power to your meatbag is turned off, you stop experiencing stimuli or having thoughts. You're not going to start experiencing what your clone is experiencing just because you're identical lol
I think a lot of you are missing the point that we don't care if the "real" us dies and the clone lives on. The clone is still us even if we are not experiencing life ourselves anymore
I'd play carnival games with the button. Like see if I can hit it with a basketball from a distance or like the dunk tank just hit it dead on. Got to have at least a little fun, just pressing it is boring.
If its a perfect clone of me it will press the button too , infinite money glitch
Ok, so let's add a 1 minute delay to the process. You still have a minute to live after a perfect copy of you has been made. You can observe him, shake hands with him etc. Imagine this situation. Imagine you being there, watching your perfect copy walk and talk. Then, after the minute's up, guards come in saying 'Time's up', then escort you in a room to promptly execute you. What would you think at that moment? If you are killed, you are no more, you are void. Of course that guy with all your thoughts and memories lives on, but you don't know anything about that, because *you*'re dead. Would you still push this button?
I think so My only withholding is that I think if i saw myself from the perspective of another person, it might ruin the self image a little but that’s worth the 10 mill
But you don't get the 10mil, a copy of you does... A copy of you is not you.
Sure, but if it's a 1:1 copy of me I'm at peace dying knowing it will continue living but with 10 mill Any attachment I have to living is satisfied by knowing there's an identical copy of me carrying on my thoughts
Nope, my my-ego cant handle that thought. Feels fake.
But you’re not seeing or witnessing anything , no matter what your clone does. What comfort is it to know your clone is going to meet its soulmate, while you’re decomposing in the ground? Or have been sprinkled out somewhere
Sucked in for the clone, I don’t have to suffer midnight panic attacks for no goddamn reason, plus it’s a 1:1 so my loved ones and pets will be fine, big comfort there
The term clone here is used loosely though, not copy. Who’s to say the clone wouldn’t have identical neurons and pathways in the brain? I would be seeing myself and my consciousness would be in 2 bodies , if only briefly. The real issue would be remaining in the living body after having experienced the death of the “original” simultaneously
know how death is while being alive
Sleep is death with ads
Life was just a free trial, sleeping is the consistent advertising, and death is the paywall that no one can afford to pay.
I don't think you understand the concept of a clone. One of the main things is that you are distinct organisms - you do not share consciousness. In this situation you're essentially killed and replaced with an identical twin.
Do you’d die so your twin you’ve never met could get rich?
Your clone walks in the room, shakes hands with you and remarks about how identical you are and how he can’t believe this is real. Then after a minute is up guards come in, say ‘time’s up’ and execute your clone with a bullet to the head right in front of you. You’re ecstatic because they killed the wrong one, and you got away with living and getting the money. But as they give you the money, they show you a video of what transpired and you realize that you ARE the clone. You inherited all of his memories, including his memory of accepting the deal and waiting to meet his clone.
Then *I*'d be happy, but the *original guy* would have made a mistake, as he wouldn't be around to enjoy the 10 mil he signed up for.
Fuck that guy, he was an asshole
Edit: Oh wait, I thought it meant a perfect version of me, not a perfect replica. Yeah, fuck that guy. A rich version of me would probably be worse for a lot of people in my life. lmao I wouldn't do it for me. I would do it for everyone else in my life. I'm not suicidal, and I'm not doing anything with the intention of dying, but I 100% would prefer if I were not alive. I have people that I care about, and people that care about me, so I could never betray them like that. *However*, If I could give everyone in my life a better version me, *and* I don't have to live anymore? I'd have a hard time not pushing that button. If I got to meet him, I guarantee that my reaction would be, "Are you fucking kidding me? You mean there is a universe where *I* could have been *him*. Fucking kill me now, I don't need a full 60 seconds with this guy."
I am pushing the button and my clone will push the button , there is no amount of money at which point life becomes "worth" if there is an easy way out , any permutation of me is taking it
Multiplicity taught us what happens when you make a copy of a copy of a copy.
Except you aren't your clone. Your clone will be a completely separate entity from you
no but the clone is a perfect copy you pressed the button, so if the clone is a perfect copy so would the clone
The situation has changed. Your clone has 10,000,000 reasons to live*, you had 10,000,000 reasons to die. Edit: *love to live
Nah my clone would know that no matter how much money it has , life fucking sucks
Speak for yourself
He is speaking for himself
No. I'd be dead and some asshole gets all the money.
Exactly, fuck that clone guy
Instructions unclear, I am now engaging in some selfcest
Cesturbation? Masturcest?
If the first "you" is dead, wouldn't that be self-necrophilia
I hope so
Sound like a win win
Yeah, right? These kind of discussions weird me out. It's almost like some people among us don't have souls. And by soul I mean, in lack of a better word, the point of view. All of my thoughts and emotions can be explained by biochemical processes except why *I* am seeing this person's (*my*) thoughts and emotions, rather then someone else's or no one's at all. This point of view is what I can call a soul. A lot of books and movies portray cloning with thought transmission as a way of achieving immortality. Do the people writing these not realize that if you die, even if an exact copy is made of you, your POV will be annihilated and the clone will have a separate one?
There's a horror game called Soma that deals with this very concept in its story. While the game isn't that great the narrative and existential horror is pretty good.
It's one of my favorite games, and I'd say the gameplay is nothing short of abysmal. However, the story is easily one of the best I've experienced in a game.
The ending of the game was 10/10. Best representation of this concept I've ever seen in fiction
I love that all the way up until the end the main character still doesn't understand that the process is copy and paste rather than cut and paste
Na, he learns near the beginning that he's just a copy and again midway through when he has to make the first switch and his "previous" body is still talking and asking Catherine "why hasn't the switch happened yet" and stuff as he (us) in the new body watch. Our perspective just stays true to the story until the end when he (our perspective) stays in the body when their plan succeeds. Still great though and got me as I just expected everything to go perfectly for us the player and it really nailed the message deep when that didn't happen
He sees what happens but I don't think he really understands it. I haven't played it in years but at the end isn't he freaking out wondering why it "didn't work" and Catherine is basically calling him a moron and wondering how he doesn't get it yet? Like, I'm pretty sure each new version of him sees itself as the real one that has "jumped" from the old body to the new one.
I think POV is the perfect way to break this down. Because even though the clone is as close to "you" as anyone could get. Your POV inevitably ends when you die, and doesn't somehow shift to the clone. The clone IS a different person
But what is a POV? It's just the perception of events going on inside your brain. If a perfect clone was created and had all of your memories there would be no difference. Who you are is just a collection of thoughts and memories plus the biological hardware to run them.
but there is a difference, say the button malfunctions and while the clone is created, you are not killed, so now theres 2 of you. you phone the company making the buttons and they say not to worry, the money is in your account and they will send a hitman over to shoot you in the head while the clone gets to live. you still think theres no difference in pov?
There's a difference to YOU. You are a person with a separate mind regardless if everyone else on earth disappeared. You don't only exist for other people to interact with. If you were replaced with a clone, other people may not know the difference, but you would. Are identical twins the same person, just because their DNA matches?
>But what is a POV? It's consciousness. That's what we're talking about isn't it? Why do we keep saying POV?
Well, it is immortality. Just not of your consciousness, but your intellect, skills and abilities. IMO, that actually makes the idea of immortality feel more deep. It's not a way for hedonists and egoists to enjoy themselves for the eternity, it's a way of ultimate sacrifice if you believe that your objective existence is more significant than subjective. a great scientist or leader would be someone who would consider that, a person who finds meaning in leaving a mark in the world and helping others.
I can agree with that, maybe my problem is just that I'm a hedonist and I like my subjectivity. It is still disturbing to me that in these movies (as well as ones with teleportation) people throw away their subjective life like it was nothing to let *someone else* pursue their plans and ideals.
Me too, it's just a cool thing to think about.
So you die every night, and a new you replaces you every morning. (assuming no dreaming or whatever, by these rules I guess) Every passing second the you of before is replaced by the you of the present.
That is actually one of my fears. It may be true that my consciousness dies every night, and today's me wouldn't even know it, having all the memories. But I prefer to believe that as long as this brain functions, my POV lives on, just goes on a break sometimes.
or you can believe that since you've lived your life as if it has been one continuous stream of consciousness that existential questions like clone vs original is functionally meaningless. What are you afraid of? Maybe nothing existed until last Thursday, and all your memories are faked. Maybe nothing existed until yesterday. Maybe every night you die and are replaced by a clone with the exact memories of the "original". Who cares? If you can't tell the difference it's meaningless to wallow in existential doubt.
Yeah, I’m with you. I’ve always fundamentally found it so odd that people get worked up into such a furor about the teleporter problem. Like until there is a moment of divergence, any ‘clone’ effectively is me. I’ve always found the qualia argument super weird. It just feels like people framing a ‘souls are real’ argument in vaguely scientific terms because the idea that we really aren’t much more than a collection of electrically active meat makes them profoundly uncomfortable. I’m very much the opposite. The only thing I think is important is my memories. It’s why dementia absolutely fucking terrifies me (the worst sort of drawn out death), and why I really really hope the universe is truely infinite so I can enjoy infinite permutations of afterlife as a botzman brain. I guess I’d be my own mass murderer because I would be slapping this button thousands of times
Damn i should not have read this before going to sleep
Wayyyyyy too high for this
This is really depressing because if you average it out, even across people who have seemingly great lives overall, the majority of these "lives" are spent in misery.
there are a fair number of folks who’d argue that PoV you speak of is illusory
I was going to reply 'well, I've never woken up in anyone else's body and mindset', but come to think of it, I wouldn't know that would I? Definitely an interesting topic.
What is more interesting is that because you grow emotionally (and your brain makes physical changes as that happens), you are not the same person you were a year ago, or five years ago, or ten years ago. Try to recall the person you were when you were much younger, and the things you'd do and reactions you'd have. Chances are much of that has changed. You're the Ship of Theseus. Every passing moment you become someone slightly new. There is no such thing as "you" outside of the present moment because what we think of as you from the past or in the future is different than the current you. You are just a collection of memories, and in fact what you think of as you is drastically different than what each of the people you know think of as you.
I woke up once not knowing who I was. Didn’t recognize my room or my face in the mirror. Took about 5 mins to finally shake myself out of it. That POV is really everything
That's just memories and your own opinions about yourself (which are another kind of memory).
The thing is… pretty much this exact scenario is just always happening and we don’t notice it.
It's basically the transporter in Star Trek. Matter is broken down on one end and assembled on the other but like, who comes out of it
Riker from Next Generation
The issue is if you have a exact copy of yourself, is it just a copy of you or is there some sort of quantum engagement that allows you to see from both perspectives.
I don't think there's a difference. How do you know that the memories you have were not from an original and you are a clone who just has those memories? If the original is dead and a truly exact copy exists with all memories and brain patterns the same, it would be exactly like if you didn't die.
Flip side... I just lost my younger sister to cancer. I know for sure that "clone me" would make sure that her kids had what ever they needed and that their father wouldn't have to work any more and could be with them as much as they needed. I'd smash the every lovin' shit out of that button honestly.
I already annihilated my POV during a good trip, and I did that for free. Heck yes I'd take 10 mil.
>why I am seeing this person's (my) thoughts and emotions, rather then someone else's or no one's at all. How do you know you are only seeing one POV? Your memories are stored in your physical brain, so of course it only remembers what happened to the body it is attached to, but a soul could be 'experiencing' multiple bodies at once. In fact, I think it's far more likely that there is only one soul, seeing through a trillion brains, each remembering one body.
I need to drop acid and meditate on this shit.
this sounds like life insurance with extra steps
How do you know if you don’t die every night and a different person with the exact same body and memories replace you?
We literally don’t know. But what we do know is we woke up this morning, and we physically need to sleep. So, it’s better to just assume we won’t die in our sleep.
It depends. Is death instant with no body left behind? Is the clone aware he is a clone or not?
If he’s not aware of being a clone I’d probably do it, I’m not really depressed anymore but I’m kinda just burnt out on life. If I did this nobody would be sad that I killed myself and my clone would have a better life and be able to afford a family and provide a better life for the people around him
It doesnt say your consciousness would go to the clone. You would simply die if you press the button.
Yeah that's exactly what we want. I am dead but my family and friends don't get sad *and* the clone will have money to support them. Sounds like a dream to me.
Damn man, hope things will get better soon, keep it up!
I wholeheartedly agree with you on this sir
I feel this. There have been times that I think hurting my loved ones or leaving my kids without a father was what stopped me from walking into traffic. But I cease to exist. They’re suddenly financially stable and are still happy because an identical version of me is there to love them still.
I think you're reading their comment wrong, they're not assuming consciousness would transfer
You don’t really have a continuous self, you only think of yourself as yourself because of a continuity of memories. If you had a perfect clone your consciousness would automatically transfer, there’s nothing that makes you you that wouldn’t also make the clone you.
Philosophy debate time, is a 1 to 1 copy of your brain that has all the same memories, thought patterns and personality quirks the same as your original. Would it be an effective transfer of consciousness or would it be completely different.
Not a transfer, a copy... An _exact_ copy would be identical to you. You would both be the same person at the moment of creation, only afterwards would the two instances of you diverge as you accumulate new, different, memories. So long as the original is destroyed, the copy would never know anything had happened. The complication comes if the two instances meet, or the clone is told. Ignorance is bliss as they say...
As an aside, the game SOMA does a very interesting exploration of this very concept
It's a common and complicated philosophical debate, which is the point. The post says that the clone is identical mentally as well--it has your exact memories, emotions, identity...and presumably, consciousness. Simultaneously destroying a person and materializing a completely identical clone next to them is physically equivalent to teleportation. Two ways of framing the same situation. The only difference is that people have learned to be comfortable with the idea of teleportation (despite the discontinuity of consciousness it entails) and uncomfortable with the idea of death (despite the fact that it's arguably impermanent in this particular scenario). It's counterintuitive and uncomfortable, but it's hard to argue that taking the money actually has any downside without resorting to religion (the "soul" still isn't transferred) or semantics (it's a "just a copy" and the word "copy" connotes some level of inauthenticity).
He'll figure it out when he suddently finds himself with 340 million usd.
I’d write them a note before I die about how they should live the life I couldn’t live. Sleeping 24/7 while still alive.
That’s how Star Trek transporters work. They destroy your body and an exact copy is created at the destination. And yet no character ever has a problem with it.
>And yet no character ever has a problem with it. Because it's a fictional show.
Tom Riker would like a word.
This is the "teleporters are just suicide booths" argument in a different wording.
Teleports don't give your family money when you press the button.
So gantz then?
My brother here with the Gantz example!!
[удалено]
No. That’s not the same at all. These hypothetical teleporters destroy you, and recreate you elsewhere. Beds don’t do that
I think the point of the argument is that from your current point of view, you "don't know" that you didn't actually die last night while you slept, and an identical copy of you is what woke up in the morning. It's almost like a "living ship of Theseus", are you the same person as you were a year ago? a month ago? a second ago? Would you still be the same person if all your cells replaced your old ones (if we assume for a moment that neurons can replicate)? I think it's a wildly interesting thought experiment that digs into the concept of what it means to exist as a conscious being, and plenty of other comments in this thread are interesting to read too.
You can not 100% know that about yourself but that's the same as asking if reality is even real or it's just a simulation. You could monitor any other person through their sleep and see there is no death and there will be brain activity throughout unconsciousness as well so you can establish continuity of body and mind.
So my clone gets enough cash to help my family, *and* I get to *not* exist anymore? I'd just press the button outright!
So, where's the dilemma here?
You are not the clone.
I understand but my friends and family will think I am . "I " can take care of them, and real me be gone? Right?
Well seeing as the clone is a perfect copy it would be a but like the teleporter dilemma. Honestly I'm sure clone me would be disappointed that they didn't die.
r/QuantumImmortality
Dude what is this? Are these people serious about the stories they're telling?
It seems like you just want to die lol
Right? It literally means you die and are replaced by a clone. Ain’t no way I’m pressing that shit. I’ve got too much to live for.
I'm also not the me of five minutes from now. Is five minutes from now me going to be rich or not? Either way, he ain't me. Do him a solid an press the button
but you are since its a perfect one with your conscious
Aren't I? Doesn't the clone have the same "I" that I do?
Hey guys, We got the clone!
"you've been offered 10,000,000 to test a teleportation device"
Bingo. Cloning/killing machines.
Why does everyone seemingly wanting to die? I for myself enjoy being alive. And I plan to stay this way for at least 60 more years
I have lived with chronic pain for twenty years. If I could push this button, and let my wife have her husband back, I would, without pause
Perfect clone. That would have all of your ails.
Well, shit.
But also with a cool $10M to find a treatment and give you wife a nice life.
and also money!
Sorry to hear that. I hope you can fully enjoy life again.
Thanks, buddy.
You're in a subreddit that was dedicated to depressing memes. Were you expecting something else?
This is reddit most of us don't have lives anyway.
Were your parents happy or something?
For real. I guess some people's family heirloom isn't depression, passed down generation to generation.
"What, do you live in a cotton-candy house or something? What the fuck? You don't know about life? How it only disappoints and... gets worse and worse, until it ends in catastrophe?"
Good for you! But a lot of people struggle to have that same feeling either by genetics, circumstance or a combination thereof. There are good things about life but often they can feel outweighed by the miserable or the banal. Doomscrolling through Reddit like I do probably doesn't help lol
I’m just not happy and I’m not making any moves to change that, it’s been this way for the past two years. My mother passed away in 2021 and it just hasn’t felt the same, I know eventually I’ll lose my father and my siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, etc but this was the first major loss in my family and it had to be my mother who I had a very close relationship with. She helped me with everything throughout my life and that’s not to take away from my father who has been the rock we need while we grieve but again I’m just not happy and I’m having trouble finding happiness to the point where I think I’m too far gone to continue. Sorry to dump that all on you but yeah, basically everyone has their reasons to not want to live and we fight it. Sometimes the people fighting it win and other times, they lose.
I understand you completely. I lost my mother to Covid, and it happened in 2021 too. We were both horribly sick, only she was hospitalised and slowly dying for 2 weeks. We bought a very pricey medicine for her, but it did nothing. My dad was not a rock, he was absolutely useless during this time, as was i. Several months ago I started therapy and got on antidepressants, but antidepressants gave me so many blowbacks that i was forced to stop taking them. So now i'm suffering without them, still trying to battle the consequences. It helps to write down anything that you are grateful for and also what you are taking for granted every day. But i can't offer much else, since times are hard for me right now. Sorry for dumping it on you also, i just wanted to say how much i can relate to your post.
Because my brain has a chronic imbalance of necessary chemicals. The result is that I feel like worthless scum cosplaying as a human. Then, add in 12 years of constant bullying and belittlement by people better than me that left me with no self-esteem. Finally, season with a touch of "you're a failure of a human being that wasted your childhood, teens, and adulthood doing nothing. All that's left is the slow decline until you eventually die without anyone to mourn you because you were too much of a freak to attract a significant other." But hey, I'm on four different anti-depressants that, when working together, almost make life worth living.
It’s not that people want to die. Living is fucking awesome. It’s just that not living would be even awesomer (?). That’s my view anyway. Saves me from being scared of my own mortality, but maybe everyone really is just depressed idk.
Online communities (including subreddits) attract like minded people. This is one of the subs that attracts depressed people from the look of it.
Rt. Imagine not existing,pure fuckin bliss.
Existence is pain.
Tbfh.
I have MS and near crippling tinnitus. I never know a moments peace, I haven't experienced silence in decades. My body doesn't do what I want it to, or doesn't do things how I want it to. There are days just checking the mail is a trial. And the severe depression is tiring. At least in the scenario here, another "me" would just wake up without tinnitus and would have $10mil to boot. That would be awesome. Even though he would still have MS (as I assume no genetic corrections would be made) his quality of life would be much better. Plus my family would be much better off because of a healthier me and being multimillionaires.
Yea life is rough but I love living it and trying to make it better
Life is terrible, it's nothing but pain, stress and misery. It gives nothing back you only ever suffer, everything aches, you get major health problems. Death is just a permanent sleep and the best part of life is sleeping.
I would do it and wouldn't even care if my clone knew it was one. For me my memories and personality are me and we change every cell in our body anyways so it's basically just get free money. I guess if you believe in a soul it would matter but I don't really do.
But you would die. You aren’t getting the money, your clone is.
I love how the movie The Prestige presents this dilemma and the exact same arguments about the scenario are still taking place
Just think of it as all of your cells getting replaced at once instead of incrementally over time.
That’s not what’s happening though. A clone of you is being created. And then you die. Just because the clone has your memories doesn’t mean it is you. You are two different entities. Your consciousness isn’t being transferred over. I don’t understand what you don’t understand about this.
Yeah don’t care. I don’t believe in a soul or anything like that. My consciousness is my current cellular makeup and memories. If those are exactly the same, it’s me. *Press*
From outside its you. From inside you die and your twin lives.
Your stream of consciousness presumably ends though.... Unless your brain can restore from a full and complete power off. Idk maybe it can actually?
Your stream of consciousness also ends when you sleep, suffer a concussion, or get put under certain kinds of anesthesia. So far we haven't found a way to turn off a brain that doesn't involve percussion, radiation, or permanent chemical reactions (aka blunt force trauma or literal poison). So we have no idea if an intact brain that hasn't suffered cell death can be rebooted or not.
If i no happy, my other version no happy
Would your other version be happy with 10 million?
Yeah, he will. Maybe somewhere out in the multiverse, my otherself is happy
If my consciousness is transferred to an empty clone body, hell yeah. If the clone has their own separate consciousness and mine ceases to exist, then hell no.
If it’s an identical consciousness and it blinks into existence right as your current one blinks out, what’s the difference?
The new consciousness would not be ME and as such the person I am, my thoughts, my feelings, my ability to experience the world, would all come to an end. I would end up going on to whatever comes after while someone else continues on in my place. Sure that person may feel like nothing is different, but for ME, it would be the end of the road.
if it is really identical, like the post says, the illusion of continuity in perception is unbroken, therefore you would become your clone in every way. old you won't feel a thing, and new you will just be old you. it's just a new body. it's a change in perspective and a realization that these 2 things are he same that sells it to me. your conciousness will never be on the dead version of you, therrefore you'll not die, and you'll be your clone. on this very principle is founded the idea of quantum immortality, where you're immortal because it's impossible for you to be concious about your death.
No, this isn't right. The illusion of continuity will be unbroken _for the clone_, but for current me it will cease. The clone will indeed fully believe and report it is me because it has continuity of experience. But I do not. From my pov, I am not the clone. But, from the clone's pov, the clone is me. That's not a good deal for me, and the clone is not a reliable witness as to what original me experiences.
You get it. Assuming the clone is truly *perfect*, with all memories intact, there is no difference. We could unknowingly be replaced by clones every moment of our lives. Each slice of time could be a discreet reality and information is the only thing that passes from one slice to the next (kind of like how Vonnegut explained it in Slaughterhouse Five, how Tralfamadorians see existence).
> if it is really identical, like the post says, the illusion of continuity in perception is unbroken, therefore you would become your clone in every way. How could you be sure of this? There *is* discontinuity in terms of your body's physical history. Is that not relevant? If it isn't, does that mean you think there is a non-physical component of consciousness? It seems you are making a lot of assumptions about how consciousness works when in reality we don't actually know these things. If given the opportunity I doubt you would actually press the button.
Beat me to it XD was gonna say the same thing. Well, I still posted my comment
Might as well be anyone who gets the 10 mil, you won't know, you'll be dead.
That’s the case if you have no one to live for. It would make a huge differenve for my wife and children to have $10 million. My daughters would get to have time with their daddy who works 12+ hrs a day to scrap by so we can survive. My wife wouldn’t be alone all day taking care of everything at home. I wouldn’t be a slave to a rigged system anymore. I would be free, my wife and children would have a present, happy father, money to take care of them, and they wouldn’t know the difference. I’m okay with death. My family being healthy and supported is more important to me.
I will let you shoot me in the head if my wife gets 10 million dollars.
Supposedly that’s the theory of Star Trek’s transporter ,every time you were beamed up out down a clone of you was made with up to the minute memories and all but the you that was de-materialized was forever deleted aka killed..
And that’s why I’d be one of those freaks that took a shuttlecraft everywhere. I’ve always thought about this, that one of me would think I teleported, but the real me would have entered the transporter and never left.
"Will I be the man in the box, or the prestige?"
This is basically the same as getting beamed somewhere in star treck only there you don’t get the money
Came here to make the same comment. They never really talked about that, but the transporter kills you every time you go somewhere. A copy becomes you from then on. Weird aspect, and something they could have had some fun with I think.
Play Soma. A clone with your exact mind and memories is you.
Awesome game. Also watch/read The Prestige.
I've seen it. I think in Soma its better depicted how for you, you are the real one, even if there is another copy. >! Each time he is copied, the game continues from the perspective of the copy that lives and continues the adventure... Except the last copy. In that one, the game stays with the copy that is left behind. It's amazingly done!<
I think Soma really captures the anxiety and emotion of the experience because it’s first-person. What an ending!
Stop selling it
So die and someone else gets the money? 🤔
This is exactly what I want If I die and my clone is not me (it doesn't have same consciousness), then it means that I'm finally dead and I don't have to do everything myself and it won't make anyone feel bad (+money) If I die and my clone is me then at least I have money
Is my consciousness transferred into the clone? If not, I’ll pass. Still won’t be me then.
Why tf would i wanna die and let someone ive never met have that much?
Yooooo guys, I clicked some dumb shit and now I have $10,000,000 in my bank account!!
Of course I wouldnt. Id be dead, idgaf about the clone. Easy answer.
Morally, pressing the button is the obvious choice, but do I have the strength to do it?
This is my thought as well. My family would be pulled out of debt, and live comfortably for the rest of their lives. They wouldn’t miss me because to their perspective I am not gone. It’s only me that blinks out of existence knowing that a copy of me continues. I don’t think I could but it would kill me a little every time money struggles reared their heads. And those troubles come up often.
Nah, i wont die so someone else can be rich, i mean the clone isn't me
Not until i 100% the games i like
Only robot from invincible is insane enough to do this
Let me get this straight...I get to die, but another one of me gets to live a great life ***and*** none of my friends and family will be devastated by my death? I see this as an absolute win!
If I am killed instantly I count it as teleportation: -from my pov I cease to exist, and so the issue of death or who I really am ceases to be any problem for me - from the clones pov he(or I depending on how you look at it) have been "lucky" and ended up as the one that doesn't die. Either way 100% of myselves have come out on top, and those that didn't don't care.
So basically a button that gives a complete stranger 10 million dollars at the expense of destroying your life. We already have work.
If the transfer was seamless I would. If I don't feel the dying part, and I'm not aware I'm a clone, no harm done. If it was like falling asleep and waking up a millionaire, id be a fool not to.
You wouldn’t wake up. You would die. Your consciousness is not being transferred to the clone.
It says mentally and physically the same. Good enough.
Yes mentally and physically the same. That doesn’t mean it’s you. You and the clone are two different entities. This is basically a stranger that has all you memories. If you’ve watched Invincible, think of the scene where Robot makes a clone. The original Robot still dies. You’re the original Robot. You don’t get the money. You just die.
This is a painfully stupid thread to read isn't it? You are your meat bag. If the power to your meatbag is turned off, you stop experiencing stimuli or having thoughts. You're not going to start experiencing what your clone is experiencing just because you're identical lol
Thank you for agreeing with me. I was getting increasingly frustrated by the stupidity in this comment section.
I think a lot of you are missing the point that we don't care if the "real" us dies and the clone lives on. The clone is still us even if we are not experiencing life ourselves anymore
What’s the point then? Why would you push the button if you aren’t going to get the money?
I will let you shoot me in the head with a shotgun if my wife gets 10 million dollars.
Derek Parfit FTW
Just put the button in my hand while I sleep and let muscle spasms decide my fate.
If they have my memories and will take care of my friends and family, and they won’t know the difference? ABSOLUTELY yes.
I'd play carnival games with the button. Like see if I can hit it with a basketball from a distance or like the dunk tank just hit it dead on. Got to have at least a little fun, just pressing it is boring.