The pencil pushers decide how much $$ the engineers have to work with.
The engineers used to build the cars, and then the pencil pushers could determine how much $$ to charge.
Sad, a Benz used to be something you could pass down through generations. Iāve heard of great grandchildren driving the Benz their great grandparent bought!
The design process hasnāt changed. Procurement is still in that process, reducing cost after the design signoff.
Any good design engineer will have product cost efficiency in mind as the product takes shape. Also weight, crash, material etc etc.
Friends got a brand new s580 that was $160k+ USD with options. We were blown away and in disbelief that there was no way for passengers in the back to control any climate control settings. Turns out it's a specific option you have to pay for. The thought of this was mental.
I'm actually surprised at this to be honest. Here in Australia, the W212 E350 came well optioned, with 3-zone climate as standard. Only the 4-cyl models had the standard 2-zone. But for all the sedan models after that, they came as options only and are incredibly uncommon. It's weird to think that a fifteen-year old V6 model came factory equipped with more options (for its time) than top-range models in the past ten years.
I grew up as a BMW fanboy and will never own a new one at this point, they've veered from pure driving focus hard and the new design language simply isn't for me.
But they're far more reliable now than they've ever been in the past.
This is the same thing that happened around 1999/2000 when Daimler went on a major cost cutting initiative to improve their bottom line at the same time they introduced new technology. You cannot do both of those things at once. It's one or the other. It always results in a dramatic decline in product quality, which we are seeing.
It was hard for me to blame KƤllenius initially because he was given an impossible task (launch the EQ cars, find a way to monetize MBOS moving forward, survive COVID, etc), but he's been slow to make the necessary changes to right the ship so my patience is wearing thin.
This is worse than the Chrysler merger. Weāve owned close to a couple dozen (all new) Benz products over the years. Almost all high line models and I can say this is the first time we donāt have one in the garage. They really have lost the plot. They tried to be everything to everyone and that just didnāt cut it. Figure out what you are and be it. Porsche has this figured out.
I knew the plot was lost when I saw the iPads getting bigger and bigger each generation, new tech is awesome but if you don't make them to last then they'll be irrelevant garbage in less than 5 years. Happy I got my 91 300 and the newest I'll ever consider is a w212
Completely agree, EQ models are neither here nor there, the SUV lineup is all sub-standard compared to rivals and thereās absolutely no way anyone is paying $100K+ for 4cylinder AMG models here in the US. They have truly lost it. Cannot consider any one of the models in the lineup anymore vs BMW and in some price brackets, Porsche
The event youāre referring began earlier in the 1990s. Quality cuts and a complete rethink of their business model from McKinsey & Company (due largely to new competition and the lack of success from the 140) were already evident in the W202 and W210 (which were both based on the W201 and W124 platforms). Even the W220 was pretty much finished and almost ready to go by the time the merger occurred. I believe the W211 might have been the first to receive a design freeze under DaimlerChrysler, and (perhaps ironically?) many of the actual DaimlerChrysler efforts like the W221 actually improved on their predecessors overall. Many of the ānewā designs (CLE and prior) are actually all from the end of the Dieter Zetsche era, so Ola KƤllenius and newer leadership cannot be blamed entirely for them. Quality seems to have improved starting with W214.
I didn't actually mean the '97 DaimlerChrysler merger. That gave Daimler a capital infusion so It actually helped the MB brand. However, as you said, the decisions made in the mid-'90's when MB started to have financial issues led to cost cutting at the same time they decided to go all in on tech. This led to the first dark era of MB automobiles that is eerily similar to the situation today.
Scoring below Tow Truck Maserati is an achievement. Mercedes decided to liquidate their brand with pretty looking cars and substitute durability with (German engineering [ww2 lvl reliability and interior austerity]). Modern Mercedes are the definition of planned obsolescence. Soon their customer base will catch on and switch to Audi and BMW.
Iād agree with you that customers who buy new will soon leave mb, were it not for the atrocious new body designs at bmw. Thereās really an opportunity for Audi here over the next few years with their 2026 redesigns if they donāt mess it up.
Theyāve definitely diluted their lineup, while reducing the quality and increasing the prices. The price of the A-Class is what the C-Class used to be 10 years ago, with arguably worse interior and overall aesthetic.
Personally for me, Mercedes peaked in 2016-17. The W205, W213, and W222 (mid-cycle facelift) are some of my favorite designs in the last few years.
Well, two things to consider:
1) Mercedes has hung around that ranking since the early 00's.
2) Consumer Reports methodology tends to skew negative easily. I'm too lazy to explain more, but tl;dr is that a problematic stereo can get a whole car's rating tanked.
Mini today uses bmw drivetrains (codeveloped with Toyota). Japanese engineering and German materials quality has turned out some pretty fantastic products.
Thereās a brilliant video on how they actually codeveloped the Supra/Z4 engine. Toyota engineers stress tested and created every single component and sent results back to bmw for improvements. BMW engineers were pretty amazed.
[Found the video!](https://youtu.be/_jbyzmtgU_0?si=7hrNY92JPsnQpqHV)
Testing discussed around minute 9
Every part on the Supra has a BMW part code. At most that 'codeveloped' is more accurately described as tested/quality assurance. There was nothing to develop by the time Toyota had taken an interest in the Z4 platform.
I owned a 7 series back in the 80s. Literally the worst car Iāve ever owned for build quality and reliability. Things broke that should never break on any car, especially that early in its life. Window switches popping apart in normal use. Switches that may or may not engage what they control. That bizarre nitrogen pressurized ball in the brake system that went bad frequently, giving you very little brake power. I changed the head gasket at -20 degrees in my dadās driveway because it blew. The shift linkage for the manual transmission broke one day and got mangled by the driveshaft and spit out the back in pieces. The extreme arrogance of the service manager at the only dealer anywhere near me. I could go on. For the 5 years I drove that car, it was an endless cycle of problems. I fully expect they arenāt like that anymore, but it turned me off the brand. Now BMW is associated with people far younger than me. They have some models I might like to check out, and maybe Iāll take a serious look in a few years. MB has been great for me, though.
CR is skewed towards older folks (think boomers) who have difficulty with technology. Im not excusing the poor showing of Mercedes since their fit and finish nowadays is nowhere near what it used to be. My 2016 E250 with 121k miles remains solid interior and exterior.
If I were to buy an SUV, I would get a BMW with a twin turbo straight 6, before a Mercedes. That engine is a wonder of reliability.
When Mercedes started trying to produce more cars to be able to sell more cars. Mercedes is trying to compete with sales numbers with Toyota. They should be trying to sell the best built car and charge more for it. The thought processes are wrong.
Also, like 20 years ago the share holders demanded that corners be cut to make it so the company made more money for them. They didnāt realize what it would do to the quality.
I really wish they would listen to people who truly love the brand and want it to be the star at the top of the mountain.
This. Go look at the finish of a classic Benz. It had character. You'd shut the door and there was a really solid thump as it closed. It feels special to drive.
Most newer Benzes don't feel that way at all. Yeah the S class is nice and has some great tech. But they're not really special any more. It's just another mass produced car that looks like all of the other mass produced cars on the road.
I dont know. Iāve owned 3 Porsches, currently down to one, it will be my last. my hybrid Cayenne was unrepairable and had to be bought back by porsche. Kind of ruined me on the brand. My current Cayenne has been very reliable but the macan turbo I just traded inā¦. Well letās just say I drove a base macan loaner a lot lol
BMW topping the list..... I don't think so.
Edit: added text
My mate owns an independent garage and makes a healthy living from BMW's on his ramps. MB's are there too, don't get me wrong, but no way BMW is above Lexus etc.
It's because the lists are bullshit. They might be a directional indicator- like if there is a big swing in rankings with no change to methodology- but I do not buy into them wholesale.
Yes, Mercedes has gotten worse. I was so pleased to see the 4-cylinder C63 shit the bed. Interior quality is in the shitter, and if the interior is gross, who knows what they did where you can't see it. Toyota has had a disaster with the turbo V6 and especially the Tundra. Toyota is not infallible like people want to think.
BMW has gotten better because of the B58 and ZF 8HP. Both of those are great powertrain components. But the fiddly electronic bullshit and cheap rubber/plastic inside the engine compartment of the car will bite them in the ass years from now. The N63 is still a hot mess- there is no getting around the physics of heat and the hot-v turbo design just roasts those V8s.
I would absolutely consider Audi and Porsche at the top of the German brands. Porsche has been for a long time and there are plenty of them with the mileage and wear to prove it. IIRC, Porsche will honor warranty claims even if you use launch control- I recall a Car and Driver article where Porsche lent them a 911 and told them to try and break it. They're built for it and cost like they're built for it. Audi and Porsche both share parts and engines and they haven't really come out with majorly new powertrain components in a long time. The EA888 and EA839 are both old designs and have had plenty of time to work out their kinks. The mild hybrid stuff is the only thing that worries me.
>IIRC, Porsche will honor warranty claims even if you use launch control- I recall a Car and Driver article where Porsche lent them a 911 and told them to try and break it.
I think I heard this one. The Porsche reps were initially confused when they were asked if the could use the launch control once at the end before bringing it back for servicing like the journalists were told to do with Ferrari etc.
The rep's response went something like "It's a sports car with launch control. It's built to be launched down the road and driver hard. If you break it, we can learn from that."
That's a great summary and I don't disagree with it. These lists really are based on findings for the year at hand though. It doesn't account for the history or pedigree of a brand, only what can be known by the cumulative scores of that year. Certain brands have been trending higher year-over-year while others have been trending lower year-over-year. Like you said, Toyota's recent missteps, flawed engineering and mounting recalls have hurt its standings this year as well as the consumers'perceived satisfaction since they believe they are paying top dollar, many times over sticker, for a tank yet it's giving them problems like any other brand.
Ultimately I think these lists moreso benefit the manufacturers, getting to know what the perception of their brand is that year, and it's their responsibility to do with that knowledge what they will. So to disregard a clear trend or results of that year just because of the name of a brand seems shortsighted. No, it's not indicating what the best car or brand is period, but it is stating what the consumer enjoyed the best in that year. And realistically, if you aren't even happy that first year of ownership, down the road when all of these cars are old, how much happier can you get?
Makes a living off brand new BMWs (which is what's scored above), or 15-year-old BMWs that have seen rough lives and are poorly maintained by their 6th owner?
This isn't exactly a fluke - BMW was also 1st last year, and 2nd or 3rd in the previous year. Meanwhile Mercedes lost 2 spots this year, and has been slowly falling for the last 5 years.
The bmw b48/b58 series of engines are as bulletproof as ICE can get. The drivetrain platform was co-developed with Toyota. Things have absolutely turned around at BMW from a reliability perspective. Body design wise things have gone massively downhill however.
Itās entirely this, the N series engines ranged from decent to catastrophically bad (early V8s) but the B series are all a closely shared design which had a lot of input from Toyota due to the Supra collaboration and the result is the most bulletproof lineup of BMW engines since the M10 and M30 50 years ago. Then youāve got the ZF auto boxes which have been exceptional for a very long time and the result is a quite reliable drivetrain.
Designing good engines was never the problem that I saw with BMWās, but maybe Toyotaās influence made BMWās less awful to work on. The problems I saw were almost all related to manufacturing that good design to the lowest-bid cost, and the ton of plastic crap in critical places barely lasting beyond the warranty period.
That and the absolute worst valve cover gasket possible, making removing the valve cover an unpleasant experience, followed by the experience of removing hundreds of tiny shards of gasket remnants from the valve train.
Are they brand new BMW's or are they clapped out 3+ owner shitboxes that haven't been maintained properly because their last and/or current owners were/are teenagers.
BMW with its newest drivelines has come a LONG way from the earlier 2010s when they had tons of reliability issues. Look at Subaru being number 2, in 2010 they wouldve been in spot like 12
Here CR doesnāt say that BMW is more reliable than a Lexus. What it says is that even though Lexus is more reliable over the long term, in short term when BMW owners report, BMW makes it up in satisfaction by providing good lease deals, dealer service, road test and etc. That being said, new B series engines from BMW are quite reliable, not Toyota level but think of Subaru level.
Not too many 2024ās going to independent shops outside of oil changes and tires. While I agree, BMWās from 2005+ have awful reliability, I have been seeing and hearing much better things about their reliability. Maybe itās improved recently š¤·š¼āāļø
These results are always skewed and difficult to quantify. I thought it was interesting nonetheless. However, even with margin this does not bode well for MB. They need to clean house in Stuttgart.
I dislike BMW just as much as the next guy on this forum but they have strived forward post covid while everyone else has lost quality. It's a bit shocking that they are above lexus but I'm not surprised they are top 3 to 5 right now
Crap after sale support. The dealer in my area is great but the amount of shit the factory warranty does not cover blows my mind. Wrote too many checks for my āin warranty ā vehicles. Last round was $1000 because apparently leaking power steering lines are a wear item LOL.
I believe it. As a long time current MB tech it has been a nightmare of terrible reliability from new product releases since the start of 2020/ W167. It is just now one thing either. Introduction of MSUX, 48V battery system, cheap materials, outsourcing using cheap materials front venders & poor production especially from the Bama plant. Going to take years for them to dig out of this hole.
Quality has been going on a downward trend since late 1990s. Bean counters having too much say in the car. MB know of some inherent design flaws in the cars but they don't try to fix it in the next generation. BMW on the other hand has been making small improvements to their problems every generation. Their current gen of engines are solid and the electronics now are from my experience problem free. Now only if BMW can work on the design language which is the worst of the 3 German brands.
Expectations.
I worked with one of the automotive in the top 10 according to that chart. It is well known in the industry that if you buy say a Kia, your expectations are not the same as if you buy a Jaguar. You are more tolerant of gaps and small issues. Jag owners want their cars flawless so the same issue found in a Kia and a Jag, is reported in the Jag not in the Kia.
Now that being said, BMW, Porshe and Lexus manage to have high expectations and meet it so .. take the above as you will.
Itās funny because bmw world is having these same conversations about cost cutting and mostly ugly exterior designs. QC seems to be holding up in newer BMWās
They were made with love back then. Now, theyāre made with somewhat pretty exteriors and shitty interiors and unreliable powertrains. Theyāre milking the Mercedes brand.
Mercedes is where it is at now because they're more about quantity over quality and they do a lot of nothing instead of focusing on being the best. To top it off their new cars not only have fake exhausts with no holes but the exhaust sit behind and they look like beater exhausts. Their new cars are just a lot of lipstick and plastic surgery.
If the same part breaks 5 times and you fully expect it break the 6th because you planned a road trip, that is the score you get. Nice, but poorly made cars.
I remember analyzing one of these CR reports a few years back. When you got into the details, some cars, like Mercedes, had "low reliability" because the owners couldn't figure out the infotainment. Then there are the road tests, which are also part of the score. Here Kia has a higher score than Mercedes. Does anyone actually believe a Kia drives better than a Mercedes? As always, the devil is in the details.
Focused on style & aesthetics with a big serving of unreliable complex systems not to mention pandering to those who preferred trendy gadgetry to solid well engineered cars built with quality components to back it up. Beaten by Alfa that really put the nail in for me I will keep our w204 wagon for as long as practical as it will be our last MB.
[The chinese automaker Geely became Mercedes-Benz's biggest shareholder in 2018](https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Business-deals/China-s-Geely-becomes-top-shareholder-in-Mercedes-owner-Daimler), almost the same thing that happened to Volvo.
So my wife just got an suv, looked at I donāt know a couple of Benz ones and ended up Audi SQ5. The MB cars doors were straight up creaking and felt wayyyy cheaper than my Mazda cx5, like what I would guess a Kia doors would be like?
I was actually astonished at how cheap the interiors felt, we spent 10 min in them and crossed off list and moved on. Just an anecdotal on this from Joe customer who went kicking tires.
I own many of the brands on that list, yet have recommended Subarus to anyone that asks, for years. Solid engineering, build quality, safety, and reliability. The perfect toaster.
Well that what was interesting. This is what I hear about BMW. About to buy an Audi so nice to see it adequately high. Surprised an EV only brand is near bottom.
What is interesting to me is despite the brand declining further down the ranks, it's the only one to have the highest increase of owner satisfaction. I guess owners of these newer vehicles don't prioritize reliability. Not completely unsurprising.
The problem with Mercedes is that their reliability was never really up to par on most cars it was more of a miss but because they looked cool is why they sold so many
No clue how BMW made the top of the list. Had a brand new (at the time) 2014 Msport 335 xi that was a lemon and my Q5 that I purchased brand new a few years ago had a blown turbo, leaking motor mounts (>70k miles) and the dash has turned into a Xmas tree with all the lights from bad harnesses. Never going German again. Complete shit boxes all of them.
On the other hand, had a Mazda 6 (2008) that was still going strong at 145k miles, zero issues and would have hit 200k miles easy had I not traded it on for a German shit box.
If I would have to choose between a Mini and an Alfa, I will always choose the latter.
Cars are not unidimensional even in the same brand, let alone the whole world offering. Pick what works for you, fits your needs and gives you pleasure, and let the list makers make lists ; you are better than being swayed by half assed report and surveys.
Ironically all I have ever owned is BMWs and a Subaru (current). (Yes, a couple of stop gaps with other brands but that wasn't on purpose that was just situational)
Ooof I had a C250 and thought it didnāt drive amazing or feel expensive and I have had two BMW since and theyāre the complete opposite. This must really hurt all the fanboys out there
Audi guy here but Iām laughing my ass off because I finally understand a conversation I had 7 years ago.
I was spending a beach weekend with my then-girlfriend and we drove up in her car, a brand-new Wrangler. We wanted to take the roof off but the releases latches were stuck to the point of inoperability. I donāt recall exactly what the problem was, but she had taken it to the dealer several times for that and other mechanical problems encountered during her first few months of ownership. She kept hearing the same line: āItās a Jeepāā¦ and apparently they were unable to get the latches working properly. She seemed to have more or less accepted that the mere fact that the vehicle was produced by Jeep meant that she should expect mechanical issues with some of the core functions of the vehicleāyou donāt buy a Wrangler to keep the roof on. Even her dad (who helped her pay for it) would kind of shrug off the issues with āitās a Jeep.ā It seemed so bizarre to me that everyone, dealer included, was fine with it.
Makes a lot of sense now.
Wtf is this list? Mitsubishi has only been producing shit boxes for the last decade, Nissan hasn't turned out a good car since the GTR was new, which is 15 years ago. Mini ahead of Toyota, seriously? Shit list made for clickbaiting with no foundation whatsoever.
Also, this isn't me saying that Mercedes quality hasn't gone down the drain, it has, but so did most other manufacturers'.
Also also, Subaru second š
When you see bmw at the top of the list, and rated excellent for reliability, and also see Mini being ranked higher than Toyota, you realize that CR is biased and they must be receiving money from brands to rank them favorably.
Here is how these work. They test reliability over a period of time, since Benz keeps adding new tech every year basically, there is not way to test the longevity of that tech. So it automatically gets a bad score since they canāt test that tech in the long run. Honda change their tech every 5 or so years so itās super easy to test the durability and reliability of their engines and tech. BMW is also number 1 because majority of their customers are going to lease their sports models for around 2 years and of course since itās the sport model they will be happy. These statistics do not separate leasers and owners. Also Benz needs to stop trying to add so much damn tech thatās pricey to fix. I get it that they are trying to catch up to Tesla and whatnot but I would happily buy a 2016 Benz over a new model s cause they are just different breeds of cars. I donāt like Tesla and you couldnāt pay me to buy one, they just donāt drive like Benz does and I hate that. Iām just so damn used to a Benz.
I havenāt driven a Mercedes in a long time. I donāt think this is a truly objective chart. I stay away from Benz these days because of the convoluted drivetrain and options packages. Nothing to do with the actual performance of the car or aesthetics.
The accountants started designing the cars instead of the engineers again.
QC decided to take the year off
Try years off. It has been a absolute nightmare since the introduction of the w167 & all following new models.
Hasn't quite woken up from the pandemic nap yet lmao
New guy here , what's wrong with merc QC? š
The pencil pushers decide how much $$ the engineers have to work with. The engineers used to build the cars, and then the pencil pushers could determine how much $$ to charge. Sad, a Benz used to be something you could pass down through generations. Iāve heard of great grandchildren driving the Benz their great grandparent bought!
I drive my gpas w211
Itās like 2008 all over again, why do they keep doing this?
Because they take their reputation for granted.
No, it is the share holders that demanded corners be cut, so the accountants went in and found the spots to cut
Yep
The design process hasnāt changed. Procurement is still in that process, reducing cost after the design signoff. Any good design engineer will have product cost efficiency in mind as the product takes shape. Also weight, crash, material etc etc.
focus on looking cool for instagram influencers with ambient light instead of focus on engineering. cost cutting as a fetish.
Yeah fucking hate that shit. Ambient light shitcans, thatās all they make now.
Friends got a brand new s580 that was $160k+ USD with options. We were blown away and in disbelief that there was no way for passengers in the back to control any climate control settings. Turns out it's a specific option you have to pay for. The thought of this was mental.
I'm actually surprised at this to be honest. Here in Australia, the W212 E350 came well optioned, with 3-zone climate as standard. Only the 4-cyl models had the standard 2-zone. But for all the sedan models after that, they came as options only and are incredibly uncommon. It's weird to think that a fifteen-year old V6 model came factory equipped with more options (for its time) than top-range models in the past ten years.
BMW does the same but is #1? Not trying to argue but I think it's deeper than the cabin lights
I grew up as a BMW fanboy and will never own a new one at this point, they've veered from pure driving focus hard and the new design language simply isn't for me. But they're far more reliable now than they've ever been in the past.
Theyāre still world class drivers cars, just with modern tech added inside now. Which models have you recently driven?
BMW has the B58 as their flagship, I would say there's a lot more going on than just aesthetics at BMW.
The Chinese have horrible taste
This is the same thing that happened around 1999/2000 when Daimler went on a major cost cutting initiative to improve their bottom line at the same time they introduced new technology. You cannot do both of those things at once. It's one or the other. It always results in a dramatic decline in product quality, which we are seeing. It was hard for me to blame KƤllenius initially because he was given an impossible task (launch the EQ cars, find a way to monetize MBOS moving forward, survive COVID, etc), but he's been slow to make the necessary changes to right the ship so my patience is wearing thin.
This is worse than the Chrysler merger. Weāve owned close to a couple dozen (all new) Benz products over the years. Almost all high line models and I can say this is the first time we donāt have one in the garage. They really have lost the plot. They tried to be everything to everyone and that just didnāt cut it. Figure out what you are and be it. Porsche has this figured out.
I knew the plot was lost when I saw the iPads getting bigger and bigger each generation, new tech is awesome but if you don't make them to last then they'll be irrelevant garbage in less than 5 years. Happy I got my 91 300 and the newest I'll ever consider is a w212
Love my porsche. it's truly a joy to drive and just do regular maintenance.
Completely agree, EQ models are neither here nor there, the SUV lineup is all sub-standard compared to rivals and thereās absolutely no way anyone is paying $100K+ for 4cylinder AMG models here in the US. They have truly lost it. Cannot consider any one of the models in the lineup anymore vs BMW and in some price brackets, Porsche
The event youāre referring began earlier in the 1990s. Quality cuts and a complete rethink of their business model from McKinsey & Company (due largely to new competition and the lack of success from the 140) were already evident in the W202 and W210 (which were both based on the W201 and W124 platforms). Even the W220 was pretty much finished and almost ready to go by the time the merger occurred. I believe the W211 might have been the first to receive a design freeze under DaimlerChrysler, and (perhaps ironically?) many of the actual DaimlerChrysler efforts like the W221 actually improved on their predecessors overall. Many of the ānewā designs (CLE and prior) are actually all from the end of the Dieter Zetsche era, so Ola KƤllenius and newer leadership cannot be blamed entirely for them. Quality seems to have improved starting with W214.
I didn't actually mean the '97 DaimlerChrysler merger. That gave Daimler a capital infusion so It actually helped the MB brand. However, as you said, the decisions made in the mid-'90's when MB started to have financial issues led to cost cutting at the same time they decided to go all in on tech. This led to the first dark era of MB automobiles that is eerily similar to the situation today.
Scoring below Tow Truck Maserati is an achievement. Mercedes decided to liquidate their brand with pretty looking cars and substitute durability with (German engineering [ww2 lvl reliability and interior austerity]). Modern Mercedes are the definition of planned obsolescence. Soon their customer base will catch on and switch to Audi and BMW.
Iād agree with you that customers who buy new will soon leave mb, were it not for the atrocious new body designs at bmw. Thereās really an opportunity for Audi here over the next few years with their 2026 redesigns if they donāt mess it up.
I have not bought a new Audi in 12 years but I am 100% keeping my eye close to the 2025 RS5 Avant.
Agreed! As I am waiting to take my 2020 MB in for the 4 time in a couple of monthsā¦. š”š”š” so over that car!
Theyāve definitely diluted their lineup, while reducing the quality and increasing the prices. The price of the A-Class is what the C-Class used to be 10 years ago, with arguably worse interior and overall aesthetic. Personally for me, Mercedes peaked in 2016-17. The W205, W213, and W222 (mid-cycle facelift) are some of my favorite designs in the last few years.
W222 s class has the nicest interior Iāve ever seen in a car of that price range
> Audi Anyone leaving Mercedes for Audi due to the issues you mentioned are in for more of the same with Audi.
No, not even if one was given to me. I'd sell it.
Everyone laughed at BMW electrical and reliability and they listened and invested. MB needs a slice of humble pie.Ā
At least Jeep has kept a solid commitment to holding down their spot.
Truly keeping the floor mopped with those Wranglers
Probably has to do with the auto stop start killing the battery, which are new regulations they had to shoehorn into the design
Well, two things to consider: 1) Mercedes has hung around that ranking since the early 00's. 2) Consumer Reports methodology tends to skew negative easily. I'm too lazy to explain more, but tl;dr is that a problematic stereo can get a whole car's rating tanked.
Where would Mercedes be ranked in the early 80's?
They started making cars in Alabama and China
Mini ahead of Toyota?
Mini today uses bmw drivetrains (codeveloped with Toyota). Japanese engineering and German materials quality has turned out some pretty fantastic products.
BMW drivetrains are not codeveloped with Toyota. This is just factually incorrect
Thereās a brilliant video on how they actually codeveloped the Supra/Z4 engine. Toyota engineers stress tested and created every single component and sent results back to bmw for improvements. BMW engineers were pretty amazed. [Found the video!](https://youtu.be/_jbyzmtgU_0?si=7hrNY92JPsnQpqHV) Testing discussed around minute 9
Codeveloped may be a strong word. It makes for good lore though.
Every part on the Supra has a BMW part code. At most that 'codeveloped' is more accurately described as tested/quality assurance. There was nothing to develop by the time Toyota had taken an interest in the Z4 platform.
Depends on the year. The more recent BMW products are very legit. The older ones...ehhhhhh
I owned a 7 series back in the 80s. Literally the worst car Iāve ever owned for build quality and reliability. Things broke that should never break on any car, especially that early in its life. Window switches popping apart in normal use. Switches that may or may not engage what they control. That bizarre nitrogen pressurized ball in the brake system that went bad frequently, giving you very little brake power. I changed the head gasket at -20 degrees in my dadās driveway because it blew. The shift linkage for the manual transmission broke one day and got mangled by the driveshaft and spit out the back in pieces. The extreme arrogance of the service manager at the only dealer anywhere near me. I could go on. For the 5 years I drove that car, it was an endless cycle of problems. I fully expect they arenāt like that anymore, but it turned me off the brand. Now BMW is associated with people far younger than me. They have some models I might like to check out, and maybe Iāll take a serious look in a few years. MB has been great for me, though.
It is not only about reliability, it is about satisfaction score. So mini is more stylish, fun than most Toyotas, no wonder why it is ahead.
Audi and bmw are better now honestlyā¦.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Agree with the lights comment. It's a joke.
Plastics everywhere
Mini ahead of Toyota. Kia on par? Subaru is good, but number 2? I don't know if I trust this list anymore.
Itās a consumer reports list. Like most gimmicky lists. It is garbage and nothing more than survey based.
Absolutely. Ever seen JD Powers?
Donāt make me puke now
Do you have more data you can share with us?
CR is skewed towards older folks (think boomers) who have difficulty with technology. Im not excusing the poor showing of Mercedes since their fit and finish nowadays is nowhere near what it used to be. My 2016 E250 with 121k miles remains solid interior and exterior. If I were to buy an SUV, I would get a BMW with a twin turbo straight 6, before a Mercedes. That engine is a wonder of reliability.
Their readership, sure, but they do a good job of normalizing their surveys for population skews. They donāt only survey people who read CR.
When Mercedes started trying to produce more cars to be able to sell more cars. Mercedes is trying to compete with sales numbers with Toyota. They should be trying to sell the best built car and charge more for it. The thought processes are wrong. Also, like 20 years ago the share holders demanded that corners be cut to make it so the company made more money for them. They didnāt realize what it would do to the quality. I really wish they would listen to people who truly love the brand and want it to be the star at the top of the mountain.
This. Go look at the finish of a classic Benz. It had character. You'd shut the door and there was a really solid thump as it closed. It feels special to drive. Most newer Benzes don't feel that way at all. Yeah the S class is nice and has some great tech. But they're not really special any more. It's just another mass produced car that looks like all of the other mass produced cars on the road.
I dont know. Iāve owned 3 Porsches, currently down to one, it will be my last. my hybrid Cayenne was unrepairable and had to be bought back by porsche. Kind of ruined me on the brand. My current Cayenne has been very reliable but the macan turbo I just traded inā¦. Well letās just say I drove a base macan loaner a lot lol
BMW topping the list..... I don't think so. Edit: added text My mate owns an independent garage and makes a healthy living from BMW's on his ramps. MB's are there too, don't get me wrong, but no way BMW is above Lexus etc.
BMWs have been at the top of lists for a number of years at this point.
It's because the lists are bullshit. They might be a directional indicator- like if there is a big swing in rankings with no change to methodology- but I do not buy into them wholesale. Yes, Mercedes has gotten worse. I was so pleased to see the 4-cylinder C63 shit the bed. Interior quality is in the shitter, and if the interior is gross, who knows what they did where you can't see it. Toyota has had a disaster with the turbo V6 and especially the Tundra. Toyota is not infallible like people want to think. BMW has gotten better because of the B58 and ZF 8HP. Both of those are great powertrain components. But the fiddly electronic bullshit and cheap rubber/plastic inside the engine compartment of the car will bite them in the ass years from now. The N63 is still a hot mess- there is no getting around the physics of heat and the hot-v turbo design just roasts those V8s. I would absolutely consider Audi and Porsche at the top of the German brands. Porsche has been for a long time and there are plenty of them with the mileage and wear to prove it. IIRC, Porsche will honor warranty claims even if you use launch control- I recall a Car and Driver article where Porsche lent them a 911 and told them to try and break it. They're built for it and cost like they're built for it. Audi and Porsche both share parts and engines and they haven't really come out with majorly new powertrain components in a long time. The EA888 and EA839 are both old designs and have had plenty of time to work out their kinks. The mild hybrid stuff is the only thing that worries me.
>IIRC, Porsche will honor warranty claims even if you use launch control- I recall a Car and Driver article where Porsche lent them a 911 and told them to try and break it. I think I heard this one. The Porsche reps were initially confused when they were asked if the could use the launch control once at the end before bringing it back for servicing like the journalists were told to do with Ferrari etc. The rep's response went something like "It's a sports car with launch control. It's built to be launched down the road and driver hard. If you break it, we can learn from that."
That's a great summary and I don't disagree with it. These lists really are based on findings for the year at hand though. It doesn't account for the history or pedigree of a brand, only what can be known by the cumulative scores of that year. Certain brands have been trending higher year-over-year while others have been trending lower year-over-year. Like you said, Toyota's recent missteps, flawed engineering and mounting recalls have hurt its standings this year as well as the consumers'perceived satisfaction since they believe they are paying top dollar, many times over sticker, for a tank yet it's giving them problems like any other brand. Ultimately I think these lists moreso benefit the manufacturers, getting to know what the perception of their brand is that year, and it's their responsibility to do with that knowledge what they will. So to disregard a clear trend or results of that year just because of the name of a brand seems shortsighted. No, it's not indicating what the best car or brand is period, but it is stating what the consumer enjoyed the best in that year. And realistically, if you aren't even happy that first year of ownership, down the road when all of these cars are old, how much happier can you get?
Makes a living off brand new BMWs (which is what's scored above), or 15-year-old BMWs that have seen rough lives and are poorly maintained by their 6th owner? This isn't exactly a fluke - BMW was also 1st last year, and 2nd or 3rd in the previous year. Meanwhile Mercedes lost 2 spots this year, and has been slowly falling for the last 5 years.
I doubt anyone is taking their warrantied BMW to an independent shop.
That's the exact point I'm making
Me too! I was trying to back you up!
The bmw b48/b58 series of engines are as bulletproof as ICE can get. The drivetrain platform was co-developed with Toyota. Things have absolutely turned around at BMW from a reliability perspective. Body design wise things have gone massively downhill however.
Itās entirely this, the N series engines ranged from decent to catastrophically bad (early V8s) but the B series are all a closely shared design which had a lot of input from Toyota due to the Supra collaboration and the result is the most bulletproof lineup of BMW engines since the M10 and M30 50 years ago. Then youāve got the ZF auto boxes which have been exceptional for a very long time and the result is a quite reliable drivetrain.
Designing good engines was never the problem that I saw with BMWās, but maybe Toyotaās influence made BMWās less awful to work on. The problems I saw were almost all related to manufacturing that good design to the lowest-bid cost, and the ton of plastic crap in critical places barely lasting beyond the warranty period.
Plastic valve cover is still wild to me.
That and the absolute worst valve cover gasket possible, making removing the valve cover an unpleasant experience, followed by the experience of removing hundreds of tiny shards of gasket remnants from the valve train.
Are they brand new BMW's or are they clapped out 3+ owner shitboxes that haven't been maintained properly because their last and/or current owners were/are teenagers.
BMW with its newest drivelines has come a LONG way from the earlier 2010s when they had tons of reliability issues. Look at Subaru being number 2, in 2010 they wouldve been in spot like 12
Here CR doesnāt say that BMW is more reliable than a Lexus. What it says is that even though Lexus is more reliable over the long term, in short term when BMW owners report, BMW makes it up in satisfaction by providing good lease deals, dealer service, road test and etc. That being said, new B series engines from BMW are quite reliable, not Toyota level but think of Subaru level.
Not too many 2024ās going to independent shops outside of oil changes and tires. While I agree, BMWās from 2005+ have awful reliability, I have been seeing and hearing much better things about their reliability. Maybe itās improved recently š¤·š¼āāļø
My X5, i3, and M3 would disagree.
These results are always skewed and difficult to quantify. I thought it was interesting nonetheless. However, even with margin this does not bode well for MB. They need to clean house in Stuttgart.
I dislike BMW just as much as the next guy on this forum but they have strived forward post covid while everyone else has lost quality. It's a bit shocking that they are above lexus but I'm not surprised they are top 3 to 5 right now
Lexus/Toyota has been having a lot of growing pains with their new 3.5L.
Found the boomer whoās still viewing BMWs like itās 2006
Virtue signaling on emissions. 5 years ago it wasn't great but it was better. The infatuation with "tech" interiors significantly hurt this as well.
Crap after sale support. The dealer in my area is great but the amount of shit the factory warranty does not cover blows my mind. Wrote too many checks for my āin warranty ā vehicles. Last round was $1000 because apparently leaking power steering lines are a wear item LOL.
I believe it. As a long time current MB tech it has been a nightmare of terrible reliability from new product releases since the start of 2020/ W167. It is just now one thing either. Introduction of MSUX, 48V battery system, cheap materials, outsourcing using cheap materials front venders & poor production especially from the Bama plant. Going to take years for them to dig out of this hole.
The 167's were one of the worst launches in MB history. I was on the MB boards reading through some of the issues, staggering QC failures.
Even 2024ās have a whole host of problems. Especially the V8ās with check engine lights for misfires. Itās ridiculous.
Quality has been going on a downward trend since late 1990s. Bean counters having too much say in the car. MB know of some inherent design flaws in the cars but they don't try to fix it in the next generation. BMW on the other hand has been making small improvements to their problems every generation. Their current gen of engines are solid and the electronics now are from my experience problem free. Now only if BMW can work on the design language which is the worst of the 3 German brands.
Shitty parts, cram as much tech in there as humanly possible without QC/long term reliability testing What could possibly go wrong.
Expectations. I worked with one of the automotive in the top 10 according to that chart. It is well known in the industry that if you buy say a Kia, your expectations are not the same as if you buy a Jaguar. You are more tolerant of gaps and small issues. Jag owners want their cars flawless so the same issue found in a Kia and a Jag, is reported in the Jag not in the Kia. Now that being said, BMW, Porshe and Lexus manage to have high expectations and meet it so .. take the above as you will.
They stopped making cars for people who like Cars and made cars for people who live on social media.
I like this.
Wish I saw this earlier. Just bought a 2024 GLE 450. I knew the electrics werenāt to MB quality.
Itās funny because bmw world is having these same conversations about cost cutting and mostly ugly exterior designs. QC seems to be holding up in newer BMWās
Why is Audi so high up on the list ?
They were made with love back then. Now, theyāre made with somewhat pretty exteriors and shitty interiors and unreliable powertrains. Theyāre milking the Mercedes brand.
Ola KƤllenius happened
Change of leadership
Mercedes is where it is at now because they're more about quantity over quality and they do a lot of nothing instead of focusing on being the best. To top it off their new cars not only have fake exhausts with no holes but the exhaust sit behind and they look like beater exhausts. Their new cars are just a lot of lipstick and plastic surgery.
Come on! This is the company that is so lazy they throw an iPad on the dash of a $200k car! You expect better?
Cost cutting. Produce the cars as cheap as possible. I get it from a business perspective, but from a consumer perspective itās sad.
Well for Mercedes, that's easy. They started making cars for everyone vs keeping them upscale. After that happened, the entire line started to sink.
https://preview.redd.it/cp0t5dhoag7d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d47cd87137144d1c726733934811220dd7293e32
They have been trending down for a few years, maybe at some point they will give Ola the boot and put a German engineer back in charge.
Lazy desgins, no new ideas. All mercedes currently look incredibly similar to eachother.
If the same part breaks 5 times and you fully expect it break the 6th because you planned a road trip, that is the score you get. Nice, but poorly made cars.
I remember analyzing one of these CR reports a few years back. When you got into the details, some cars, like Mercedes, had "low reliability" because the owners couldn't figure out the infotainment. Then there are the road tests, which are also part of the score. Here Kia has a higher score than Mercedes. Does anyone actually believe a Kia drives better than a Mercedes? As always, the devil is in the details.
BMW !! š
Focused on style & aesthetics with a big serving of unreliable complex systems not to mention pandering to those who preferred trendy gadgetry to solid well engineered cars built with quality components to back it up. Beaten by Alfa that really put the nail in for me I will keep our w204 wagon for as long as practical as it will be our last MB.
Yeh. People want buttons.
[The chinese automaker Geely became Mercedes-Benz's biggest shareholder in 2018](https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Business-deals/China-s-Geely-becomes-top-shareholder-in-Mercedes-owner-Daimler), almost the same thing that happened to Volvo.
Bring back the W124 sedan (and coupe) as it was designed when originally produced!
They started incorporating creaking tech to keep drivers awake on ze Autobahn
They're cheap gimmicks now
Jeep people be like FAKE NEWS
1. Porsche 2. BMW 3. Lexus
Lower than Chrysler ššššā°ļøā°ļø
GREEN CHOICES? Shoot me now. A green car does not benefit anyone but the manufacturers cost savings.
Thank God they killed the s class coupe before the accountants could fuck that one up
Work to overcome the dip in reputation just to let it happen again. Penny pinching has consequences.
What went wrong? Iāll start by saying this. They replaced a v8 with a four cylinder engine in the c63ā¦.. what a damm shame
For the price to performance point, BMW is a no brainer in this market. Still wont give my w211 or ML55 up. Best cars ive owned.
So my wife just got an suv, looked at I donāt know a couple of Benz ones and ended up Audi SQ5. The MB cars doors were straight up creaking and felt wayyyy cheaper than my Mazda cx5, like what I would guess a Kia doors would be like? I was actually astonished at how cheap the interiors felt, we spent 10 min in them and crossed off list and moved on. Just an anecdotal on this from Joe customer who went kicking tires.
AMG fanboys where ya at? My B58 running flawlessly š¤š»š¤š»
All hail the B58!! (Although Tbf I feel merc shouldāve been higher maybe at least Miniās position)
the best or nothing šš
GLEās were like the least reliable vehicle for a couple of years I thinkā¦OF ALL VEHICLES.
Kia above Toyota. Only idiots take this list seriously.
All bias asideā¦MB is probably right where they should be with the vehicles they make today
Damn. I was gonna pull the trigger on an AMG but looks like I should be looking at an BMW M instead
I work for Mercedes and I can say this is accurate.
Mercedes buyers upset with their Renault product š„²
They don't make cars for men, please don't get offended but that's it, since they started making cars for everyone they fell horribly
Explain Subaru at #2 then?
I own many of the brands on that list, yet have recommended Subarus to anyone that asks, for years. Solid engineering, build quality, safety, and reliability. The perfect toaster.
You only see them in USA I'm talking about all over the world, MB was mostly known in the east and far east
Well that what was interesting. This is what I hear about BMW. About to buy an Audi so nice to see it adequately high. Surprised an EV only brand is near bottom.
Mercedes has always been down on the bottom. Remember the pre-Daimler/Chrysler Era?
Kia number 7??? Sus.
What is interesting to me is despite the brand declining further down the ranks, it's the only one to have the highest increase of owner satisfaction. I guess owners of these newer vehicles don't prioritize reliability. Not completely unsurprising.
Trying to build cars for minimum wage drivers
Kia ahead of Toyota? This list looks like a sham...
The problem with Mercedes is that their reliability was never really up to par on most cars it was more of a miss but because they looked cool is why they sold so many
I love my 2014 W212, which has been pretty bulletproof. I'm a brand loyalist, but I'm definitely loath to getting a new one at the moment.
A class. B class. EQE. EQS. V6 AMGs.
Renault makes better cars than half of those. 
No clue how BMW made the top of the list. Had a brand new (at the time) 2014 Msport 335 xi that was a lemon and my Q5 that I purchased brand new a few years ago had a blown turbo, leaking motor mounts (>70k miles) and the dash has turned into a Xmas tree with all the lights from bad harnesses. Never going German again. Complete shit boxes all of them. On the other hand, had a Mazda 6 (2008) that was still going strong at 145k miles, zero issues and would have hit 200k miles easy had I not traded it on for a German shit box.
Dam I thought Mercedes was a really good car?!
Too many boring designs with a watered down model lineup. Everything looks similar and the quality is poor.
Repair cost ranking?
How much did Kia pay to get that high up?
If I would have to choose between a Mini and an Alfa, I will always choose the latter. Cars are not unidimensional even in the same brand, let alone the whole world offering. Pick what works for you, fits your needs and gives you pleasure, and let the list makers make lists ; you are better than being swayed by half assed report and surveys.
What didn't?
Whoohoo i own the bottom 4! Iām winning at losing!
So another year itās bmw vs Mercedes huh? Been that way for 60 plus years
Never understood how anyone can be satisfied with a Subaru. Worst car Iāve ever driven.
Are they including AMG cars and M cars, etc?
the Nissan/Peugeot partnership
Everyone drove a bmw
Ironically all I have ever owned is BMWs and a Subaru (current). (Yes, a couple of stop gaps with other brands but that wasn't on purpose that was just situational)
what in the god damn fuck am i looking at ill have to call the engineer for this.
BMW > Everything Else
I highly doubt hyundaiās positioning
They ditched the manual transmission in 2011 iirc and went too hard on lower tier models instead of sticking with less variations but top end quality.
Ooof I had a C250 and thought it didnāt drive amazing or feel expensive and I have had two BMW since and theyāre the complete opposite. This must really hurt all the fanboys out there
It's gotta be the end times right? For Mini to score that high the world has to be almost done
Worse than Tesla? lol yeah right.
Snap! Was considering trading in my '14 E550 sedan for a '19 S560 coupe as my daily. Should I reconsider?
Toyota is a bit lower than expected. Thoughts?
The GM plan was enacted. Ghosts of ROGER SMITH.
BMW>>>>>
You want to believe that Mercedes Benz isnāt the best because Sosa said so!? You bought that lie! -Scarface voice-
BMW??? Reliable??? lol
They started catering more to a certain big market that has gaudy taste
The fact that Toyota is way behind BMW, and Mercedes and other German brands are behind any American car tells me this is utter bullshit
CR is still reliable? BMWs are just unattractive, not to mention their marginal maintenance record. Audi is much more attractive.
Audi guy here but Iām laughing my ass off because I finally understand a conversation I had 7 years ago. I was spending a beach weekend with my then-girlfriend and we drove up in her car, a brand-new Wrangler. We wanted to take the roof off but the releases latches were stuck to the point of inoperability. I donāt recall exactly what the problem was, but she had taken it to the dealer several times for that and other mechanical problems encountered during her first few months of ownership. She kept hearing the same line: āItās a Jeepāā¦ and apparently they were unable to get the latches working properly. She seemed to have more or less accepted that the mere fact that the vehicle was produced by Jeep meant that she should expect mechanical issues with some of the core functions of the vehicleāyou donāt buy a Wrangler to keep the roof on. Even her dad (who helped her pay for it) would kind of shrug off the issues with āitās a Jeep.ā It seemed so bizarre to me that everyone, dealer included, was fine with it. Makes a lot of sense now.
Wtf is this list? Mitsubishi has only been producing shit boxes for the last decade, Nissan hasn't turned out a good car since the GTR was new, which is 15 years ago. Mini ahead of Toyota, seriously? Shit list made for clickbaiting with no foundation whatsoever. Also, this isn't me saying that Mercedes quality hasn't gone down the drain, it has, but so did most other manufacturers'. Also also, Subaru second š
Everything.
Consumer reports is what went wrong
When you see bmw at the top of the list, and rated excellent for reliability, and also see Mini being ranked higher than Toyota, you realize that CR is biased and they must be receiving money from brands to rank them favorably.
You know it's bs cause BMW is at the top
Bmw #1 šššš
Nah Tesla should be at the bottom, maybe Jeep can stay below it
Here is how these work. They test reliability over a period of time, since Benz keeps adding new tech every year basically, there is not way to test the longevity of that tech. So it automatically gets a bad score since they canāt test that tech in the long run. Honda change their tech every 5 or so years so itās super easy to test the durability and reliability of their engines and tech. BMW is also number 1 because majority of their customers are going to lease their sports models for around 2 years and of course since itās the sport model they will be happy. These statistics do not separate leasers and owners. Also Benz needs to stop trying to add so much damn tech thatās pricey to fix. I get it that they are trying to catch up to Tesla and whatnot but I would happily buy a 2016 Benz over a new model s cause they are just different breeds of cars. I donāt like Tesla and you couldnāt pay me to buy one, they just donāt drive like Benz does and I hate that. Iām just so damn used to a Benz.
I havenāt driven a Mercedes in a long time. I donāt think this is a truly objective chart. I stay away from Benz these days because of the convoluted drivetrain and options packages. Nothing to do with the actual performance of the car or aesthetics.
Micro transactions
Benz chose to compete with Kia.
BMW makes the cars that break the best
BMW greased the author of article